Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    
    
    John, several things really stood out in your note:
    
    "I WANT OUT" (bold type!)
    
    "I don't love...don't even LIKE"
    
    "she is my wife"
    
    
    John, I don't think anyone can 'suggest' rightness or wrongness.
    What's right for me might be wrong for you.  And I think you know
    that....
    
    You've answered your own questions.  You want out.  Gee, that is
    so very clear.  What is NOT clear is why you won't act on your
    'wants'.  
    
    What is your definition of a "wife".  That is, what roles do each
    of you play in the scheme of things?  "Wife" is just a title.  So
    do you really "owe" her anything, other than what our legal system
    defines for us?  Do you 'owe' her companionship?  Emotional support?
    
    Gee, I think you ought to re-read your note and then act on whay
    YOU have expressed....
    
    Good luck, John...please please let us know what you ultimately
    decide.
    
    Deb
    
    

         It took a lot of guts to open up to us like that, John.  It
    is not difficult to see the pain you are suffering over this matter.
    I found your feelings of commitment to be very refreshing.  It is
    the only hope of marriage in America, that people have similar drive
    to keep a marriage together.  However, I think you have more than
    your share of this very noble trait.  It is unwise for a mate
    to coerce another to give up so much that is dear.  It is equally
    unwise for one to accede to such coercion.  There is little doubt
    that it would later lead to resentment.  I guess you really don't
    need my hindsight, but I think you really had that idea in the first
    place.  To be blunt, you've got to get out.  It is going to take
    finesse and tact that only you know enough to use.  The bottom line
    of the matter is that the longer you remain in this relationship
    of obligation, the more difficult it will be to break it off.  You've
    got my best wishes, but not my envy.
    
                                 Greg
    

John, you have my empathy - and sympathy too, although I know
you're not looking for people to feel sorry for you.

I'm not going to say anything different, really, from what Deb and
Greg have already stated.

In your basenote, the part that affected me the most was your saying:

  >                      .....I've hated this relationship for
  > YEARS! I still do.  I am afraid (scared to death) of growing
  > old with this woman, and of being alone with her after my
  > children are gone.

Yes, she may be hurt when you leave, but why should you have to
trade her pain (which will be finite - she'll get over it. We all
learn to get over things) for yours?

John, you're 47 years old. We, none of us, are going to live forever
on this earth.

And while we're here, we ALL deserve our measure of happines.

Take yours.

  Alan

    John, I also commend you for having the guts to open up like you
    did.  I can also empathize with what you're going thru....but empathy
    doesn't help much does it?
    
    One of the thoughts that was running thru my mind while reading
    your note was....'what IS keeping him in this relationship?'  Only
    you, of course, can really answer this.  I know you care about what
    will happen to your wife and family, and will you still stay connected
    and involved with your children....etc..etc..but I know some of the
    emotions "I" went thru when going thru my divorce and the period
    before was..."will 'I' be okay?...will I spend the rest of my life 
    ""ALONE""? is staying in and fighting for this relationship better
    than the thought of having no one at all?"  Obviously I, 'WE', made 
    the choice to end it...and I won't begin to say it was easy...it was 
    HELL at times....but we ALL (child included) survived...and what's better 
    we are both  better people BECAUSE of the decision we made.
    
    You have a tough choice to make...dig deep inside of yourself and
    choose what's best for YOU..this isn't being selfish ...it's being
    healthy..and if you are healthy,  you can help the ones you care
    for much better.
    
    Good luck ...to all of you.
    
       Judy

             I really appreciate the responses to my base note.  They 
         show a sensitivity and concern that I was hoping to see, and 
         are very supportive.  Again, thanks a million.
             I have re-read my own base note many times.  It is 
         accurate, I think, although certainly not complete.  It also 
         does not truly reflect how concerned I am about the effect my 
         actions will have on those in my family and close to it.
             When I left home (20 months ago...the period which is 
         referred to as my "period of lucidity" by my sister) I had 
         the same sort of fears I now have.  I was afraid of the 
         impact on my children, and, as the days went by, I discovered 
         another fear:  I found that I had a tremendous support 
         system, all my peers at work, my family and friends, all 
         supported me and my decision.  But, Peggy, had no one to turn 
         to.  I discovered that she could (would) not tell her family 
         (her mother, brother and sister all live locally) and will 
         not discuss "family"/"personal" matters with friends.  Even 
         though her support system was limited by her own choices, the 
         very fact that she had "no-one" to turn to in her hurt, 
         really got to me.  In fact, that is probably the single 
         greatest reason I returned.  
             Question:  must I be concerned about that again....or is 
         it some sort of way to manipulate me?  I am sure the same 
         thing will happen again.
             I also learned that my youngest children are very 
         resilient...they can/will survive it (even again).  But, my 
         17 year old daughter is extremely sensitive, and very close 
         to me.  She was deeply hurt, and the prospect of hurting her, 
         and the others, again, is not something I look forward to.
             This weekend, just past, was really rough.  I am sure 
         Peggy fears the worst.  She has never indicated a desire to 
         celebrate anniversaries or other special occasions (until 
         this last year).  I long ago stopped asking her to go dancing 
         (even though she was a competition ball-room dancer when we 
         got married) or to the movies.  You can only take "no" for an 
         answer soooo many times.  Yesterday, she said 'maybe next 
         anniversary, IF YOU'RE STILL HERE, we can do something 
         special'....(the CAPS are mine).  She says she is very 
         disappointed that I will be gone (to training) during our 
         wedding anniversary (next week), and points to the fact that 
         she has given cards/gifts, etc. for Valentine Day and 
         anniversary.  This she HAS done, since 20 months ago.
             I am embarrassed to admit it, but I DON'T CARE anymore.  
         I'd just as soon she didn't do those things, now.  I don't 
         want to hear her say "I love you".  She NEVER said that until 
         this past year.  It's just too late for me.
         
             Is it wrong for me to feel this way?  Is it wrong to just 
         not care anymore?
         
         ***********************************************************
         
         I know this is rambling, but I can't stop once I start!  I'll 
         try to answer some of the questions posed in replies to my 
         base note.  Perhaps that'll help.  I'm not even sure I'll 
         post THIS reply, at all.  It helps to talk about it.
         
         My definition of a wife?  Not too sure, now.  A person who 
         cares for me and for whom I care.  A person with whom I can 
         feel comfortable, laugh, cry, talk, argue, discuss, and still 
         love.  A friend, confidant.  Someone I long to be with, not 
         avoid (as I do now).  A lover, a lover of nature, of the 
         mountains, of all that is outdoors.  I could go on. 
         
         I keep wondering if my age is the problem.  I hear so much 
         about menopause and I wonder if that is why I feel the way I 
         do.  I know I have had these feelings for many years, but 
         they are really intense now.  I went to a doctor about that 
         and he prescribed some chemical that would ease my headaches.  
         My wife loved it, cuz it made me (docile?).  but, I can't 
         stand taking pills.  Better living is NOT through chemistry.
         Does anyone know more about menopause/midlife crisis in men?  
         I'd hate to make a mistake in life just because my hormones 
         are screwed up.
         
         How much weight should I put on ME/MY happiness?  Why is ME 
         being really happy suddenly so important to me?  Is MY 
         happiness worth the hurt of a divorce?
         
         Enough rambling......thank you all for your patience with me.  
         I know I'll do what I have to do.  Thank you all for caring 
         and sharing.  I mean it.
         
         John

    
    After a while you do stop caring.  I did and am in the process of
    divorcing my husband.
    
    First of all, you have to take care of yourself.  If you don't do
    that, you won't be of any use to your children.  Secondly, it may
    hurt them at first, but they will be all the more healthier for
    it.  To live in a home without the love you seem to have lost is
    not healthy for them or anyone.
    
    I went through the much same thing.  When my husband told me he 
    loved me, I didn't want to hear it either.  It was pointless because
    now they were just empty words.  People in your wife's position, like
    my husband, will suddenly start to change when you begin to take a 
    stand.  This usually creates a false hope on your part which continues
    to keep you there.  Yes, it can be used as a mechanism to manipulate 
    and control you.
    
    No one can tell you what to do, but I think you already said what
    you'd like to do.  Do what is best for you and everything else will
    fall into place.
    
    Been there & back,
    - Beckie

    JOHN
           I DONT KNOW EXACTLY KNOW HOW TO ANSWER YOUR NOTES. I NOW
    FIND MYSELF (AND HAVE FOR THE PAST TWO YEARS) IN EXACTLY YOUR
    SITUATION.

           MY NAME IS DAVE AND I WORK IN FIELD ENG. OVER THE PAST TWO
    YEARS I HAVE BEEN TO THREE (SOON TO BE FOUR) COUNSELERS. MY QUESTION
    TO THEM (AND OF COURSE MY FRIENDS) WAS(IS) "DO I HAVE A RIGHT TO
    BE HAPPY?". EVEN IF IT IS AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHER PEOPLES FEELINGS?
    THEIR ANSWER (EVERY ONE) WAS YES,YES,YES! 
    
           THE ONLY PROBLEM WAS ALL THESE ANSWERS CAME SO FAST AND EASY
    FROM THEM THAT I MISTRUSTED THEM. I WANT TO TELL YOU THAT NOBODY
    HAS -THE- ANSWER FOR YOU BUT I DO KNOW ONE THING AND THAT IS YOU
    WILL GET OUT OF THIS SITUATION. JUST AS I WILL GET OUT OF MY PROBLEM.
    
           NOW, HOW LONG ARE YOU WILLING TO STAY UNHAPPY? I HAVE LIVED
    WITH IT FOR ONLY TWO YEARS AND IF IT WAS NOT FOR THE LOVE OF MY LIFE
    I WOULD NOT KNOW THE ANSWER FOR MY LIFE YET. I CAN ONLY IMAGINE
    THE PAIN,HURT AND GUILT YOU MUST AT THIS TIME FEEL AND I CAN ONLY
    DO THAT BECAUSE I NOW AND HAVE BEEN LIVING WITH IT.
    
           I WOULD VERY MUCH LIKE TO TALK WITH YOU IN MORE DEPTH THAN
    THIS NOTE FILE WILL ALLOW. CHARLOTTE(WHOSE NOTE ACCOUNT THIS IS)
    KNOWS MY SITUATION BETTER THAN ANYONE ALIVE,SO SINCE I DONT HAVE
    MY OWN ACCOUNT I WILL GIVE YOU ALL THE OTHER WAYS TO REACH ME IF
    YOU WOULD CARE TO EXCHANGE INFO.
    
                                   I AS MANY OTHERS -DO- CARE!
                                             DAVE                   
   

    JOHN
          I WAS SO CAUGHT UP IN RELATING TO YOU THAT I FORGOT TO GIVE
    YOU MY ADDRESS & PHONE # SO HERE IT IS....
      
    
                   DAVE DAWSON                   
                     C/O    DEC  M/S KKO
                   7606 UNIVERSITY STREET
                   LUBBOCK, TEXAS 79423
                   
                   OFFICE(NO DTN) (806) 745-9294 OR 98
                             
                    

    
    
    John,
    
    It's 3:18 am here in Boston, but I am compelled to add this note.
    Folks please bear with the length; I think it will help. 
    
    There is a man by the name of Rainer Maria Rilke, a poet of the
    turn of the century, who can say what needs to be said for more
    eloquently than I ever could, and more so than anyone I have
    ever read. I have extracted one of his letters, from a book of
    letters given to me by my mother. It reads as follows:
    
    My dear Mr. Kappus,
    	Much time has passed since I received your last letter. Please
    don't hold that against me; first it was work, then a number of
    interruptions, and finally poor health that again and again kept
    me from answering, becasue I wanted my answer to come to yuo out
    of peaceful and happy days. Now I feel somewhat better again ( the
    neginning of sprin with its moody, bad tempered transitions was
    hard to bear here too) and once again, dear Mr. Kappus, I can greet
    you and talk to you (which I do with real pleasure) about this and
    that in response to your letter, as well as I can.
    	You see, I have copied out your sonnet, because I found that
    it is lovely and simple and born in the shape that it moves in with
    such quiet decorum. It is the best poem of yours taht you have let
    me read. And now I am giving you this copy because I know that it
    is important and full of new experience to rediscover a work of
    one's own in someone else's handwriting. Read the poem as if you
    had never seen it before. and you will feel in your innermost being
    how very much it is your own--
    	It was a pleasure for me to read your sonnet and your letter,
    often; I thank you for both.
    	And you should not let yourself be confused in your solitude
    by the fact that there is something in you that wants to move out
    of it. This very wish, if you use it calmly and prudently and like
    a tool, will help you spread out your solitude over a great distance.
    Most people have (with tthe help of conventions) turned their solutions
    toward what is easy and toward the easiest side of the easy; but
    it is clear that we must trust in what is difficult; everything
    alive trusts in it, everything in Nature grows and defends itself
    any way it can and is spontaneously itself, tries to be itself at
    all costs and against all opposition. We know little, but that we
    must trust in what is difficult is a certainty that will never abandon
    us; it is GOOD to be solitary, for solitude is difficult; that
    something is difficult must be one more reason for us to do it.
    	It is also good to love: because love is difficult. For one
    human being to love another human being: that is perhaps the most
    difficult task that has been entrusted to us, the ultimate task,
    the final test and proof, the work for which all other work is merely
    preparation. That is why young people, who are beginners in everything,
    are not yet CAPABLE of love: it is something they must learn. With
    their whole being, with all their forces, gathered around their
    solitary, anxious upward-beating heart, they must learn to love.
    But learning-time is always a long, secluded time, and therefore
    loving, for a long time ahead amd FAR INTO LIFE is-: solitude, 
    a heightened and deepened kind of aloneness for the person who loves.
    Loving does NOT at first mean merging, and uniting with another
    person (for what would a union of two people who are unclarified,
    unfinished, and still incoherent--?), it is a high inducement for
    the individual to ripen, to become something in himslef, to become
    world, to become world in himself for the sake of another person;
    it is a great, demanding claim in him, something that chooses him
    and calls him to VAST distances. Only in this sense, as the task
    of working on themselves ("to hearken and to hammer day and night"),
    may young people use the love that is given to them. Merging and
    surrendering and every kind of communion is not for them (who must
    still, for along, long time, save and gather themselves); it is
    the ultimate, is perhaps that for which human lives are yet BARELY
    LARGE ENOUGH. 
    	But that is what young people are so often so disastrously wrong
    in doing: they (who by their very nature are impatient) fling
    themselves at each other when love takes hold of them, they scatter
    themselves, just as they are, in all their messiness, disorder,
    bewilderment...: And what can happen then? What can life do with
    this heap of half-broken things that they call their communion and
    that they would like to call their happiness, if that were possible,
    and their future? And so each of them loses himself for the sake
    of the other person, and LOSES THE OTHER, and MANY OTHERS WHO STILL
    WANTED TO COME. And loses the VAST DISTANCES and possibilities,
    gioves up the approaching and fleeing of gentle, prescient Things
    in exchange for an unfruitful confusion, out of which nothing but
    a bit of DISGUST, DISAPPOINTMENT and poverty, and the escape into
    one of the many conventions that have been put up in great numbers
    like public shelters on this most dangerous road. No area in human
    experience is so extensively provided with conventions as this one
    is: there are life preservers of the most varied invention, boats
    and water wings; society has been able to create refuges of every
    sort, for since it preferred to take love-life as an AMUSEMENT,
    it also had to give it an easy form, cheap, safe, sure, as public
    amusements are. 
    	It is true that many young people love falsely, i.e. simply
    surrendering themselves and their solitude (the average person will
    of course always go on doing that--), feel oppressed by their failure
    and want to make the situation they have landed in livable and fruitful
    in their own, personal way--. For their nature tells them that the
    questions of love, even more than everything else that is important,
    cannot be resolved publicly and according to this or that agreement;
    that they are questions; intimate questions from one human being
    to another, which in any case require a new, special WHOLLY personal
    answer--. But how can they, who have alreay flung themselves together
    and can no longer possess anything of their own, how can they find
    a way out of themsleves, out of the depths of their already buried
    solitude?
    	They act out of mutual helplessnenss, and then if, with the
    best of intentions, they try to escape the convention that is
    approaching them (marriage, for example) they fall into the clutches
    of some less obvious but just as deadly conventional solution.for
    then everything is--convention. Wherever people act out of a
    prematurely fused, muddy communion, EVERY action is conventional:
    every relation that such confusion leads to has its own convention,
    however unusual (i,e, in the ordinary sense, immoral) it masy be;
    even seperating would be a conventional step, an impersonal accidental
    decision without strength and without fruit. 
    	Whoever looks seriously will find neither for death, which is
    difficult, nor for difficult love has any clarification, any solution,
    any hint of a path been preceived; and for both these tasks, which
    we carry wrapped up and hand on without opening, there is no general,
    agreed upon rule that can be discovered.
    	[Remember, this was written in 1908!!]
    	We are only now just beginning to consider the relation of one
    individual to a second individual objectively and without prejudice,
    and our attempts to live such relationships have no model before
    them. And yet in the changes that time has brought about there are
    already many things that can help our timid novitiate.
    	The girl and the woman, in their new individual unfolding, will
    only in passing be imitators of male behaviour and misbehaviour
    and repeaters of male professions. After the uncetainty of such
    transitions, it will become obvious that women were going through
    the abundance and variation of those  (often rediculous) disguises
    just so taht they could purify their own essential nature and wash
    out the deforming influences of the other sex. Women, in whom life
    lingers and dwells more immediately, more fruitfully, and more
    confidently, must surely have become riper and more human in their
    depths than light, easygoing man, who is not pulled down beneath
    the surface of life by the weight of any bodily fruit, and who,
    arrogant and hasty, undervalues what he thinks he loves. This humanity
    of woman, carried in her womb through all her suffering and humiliation
    will come to light whe she has stripped off the conventions of mere
    femaleness in the transformations of her outward status, and those
    men who do not yet feel it approaching will be ASTONISHED by it.
    Someday there will be girsl and women whose name no longer means
    the mere opposite of male, but something in itself, something thatmakes
    one think not of any complement and limit, but ONLY OF LIFE and
    reality: the female human being, 
    	THIS ADVANCE ( at first very much against the will of the
    outdistanced men) WILL TRANSFORM THE LOVE EXPERIENCE, WHICH IS NOW
    FILLED WITH ERROR, WILL CHANGE IT FROM THE GROUND UP, AND RESHAPE
    IT INTO A RELATIONSHIP THAT IS MEANT TO BE BETWEEN ON EHUMAN BEING
    TO ANOTHER, NO LONGER ONE THAT FLOES FROM MAN TO WOMAN.And this
    more human love will resemble what we are now preaparing painfully
    and with great struggle: the love that consists in this: that TWO
    SOLITUDES PROTECT and BORDER and GREET each other.
    
    	John, please take only what you need from this, disregard the
    rest. Hope it helps, have a good life.
    

    John,
    
    I guess I don't really have any qualifications to be answering your
    questions.. other than perhaps 21 years of marriage to the same
    person through some VERY VERY difficult times. The thing that always
    comes to my mind on bad days is that it takes 20 years to get through
    a 20 year marriage. It's too much to give away because things are
    not good that day or maybe even the last few days or weeks or months.
    
    Judging by your wife's age, she has probably had a few problems
    lately too - maybe she tried not to tell you, maybe she didn't know
    why she has felt how she did.....she may not admit things to herself
    if she doesn't talk to her immediate family. 
    
    Right now, why CAN'T you take up Amateur radio ? Why CAN'T you go to
    the Episcopalian church? if that's what you chooses to do? You AND your
    lady should be able to build a satisfactory life outside the _home_ as
    individuals. This can,if agreed to and worked on together, make each of
    you more interesting to the other. You have topics to talk about that
    dont involve the "me" and the "you" but can be impersonal..can remove
    the interpersonal conflict until the pressure is reduced and the wounds
    have a chance to heal. After all when you first met, you had individual
    interests that made each have some attraction for the other? The kids
    can be involved in each of their parents lives without taking sides,
    too. 
    
    Yup the mid-life crisis is for real but it can be gotten over. Don't
    see apparent changes of heart as attempts to 'trap' you, necessarily.
    The lack of peer support for your wife may not be of her choosing. She
    may genuinely not be able to communicate her feelings.. I dunno. You
    do, I guess. Maybe she wonders why she has few friends??? 
    
    Sorry to be opposite to the others in this somewhat - heck no I'm
    not sorry. I believe in marriage through good and bad (except in
    some circumstances - I'm not blindly saying this) and I KNOW it
    has to be worked at. sometimes from one side, sometimes from both.
    You seem to suggest your wife is trying to make some efforts from
    her side.... can you not get to know _her_ again - not the person
    you outwardly see every day but the one that appears to be trying
    to reach you?
    
    Drop a line if you want to chat to someone off-line in a far away
    place that cannot be involved, as it were.
    
    All the best, Pray to YOUR God about it.
    
    Derek
     
    

    John,
    
     I would mightily resent it if I gave up as much of my life as you
    did! (guitar, etc.). 
    
     You said that there would be no way you could get custody of your
    kids - WRONG!!!!! I got custody of my 8 year old daughter.
    Besides, in a couple years,that 9 year old is going to pretty much
    go where he/she wants.
    
     You said that you would give her both houses, 1/2 the savings,
    etc. - I don't know for sure, but it sounds like you are trying
    to relieve yourself of guilt - not make a reasonable division.
    
     You are worried that Peggy can't fend for herself. Well, in this
    world, men and women alike MUST learn to fend for themselves (in
    my opinion). If she wants a life, SHE has to build it - you can't.
    
     If you truly want out, get out. You have the rest of your life
    to live, and I wouldn't want to live it in a terrible relationship.

     Listen to the one who suggested you were the caretaker type - it
    is very easy to avoid tough decisions by convincing ourselves that
    we are doing it for the other person's good - I know, I have done
    it before.
    
    			Gregg

I am finally there.  Not because so many of you have responded to my basenote,
but because I know it is the *right* thing to do.

I am going to leave.  (why haven't you left *already*, I hear you say?)

I *want* to wait until my daughter graduates....for her sake (or perhaps for 
my own).  I may not be able to put it off that long, now.  Still three weeks
to go.  That is a terribly long time to live in the stressful situation I 
am now in, a dear friend advises me.  So, I may not be able to wait.

But, the decision is made.  My resolution is firm.  I will leave and start 
over.  And hope, and pray to God, that I can stand firm against manipulation 
again.

Thank you all for your support.  Every one of you.  As each of you know, I have
responded individually to you to thank you for careing.  I appreciate that
care and do not take it lightly.

Wish me luck!

John

    John,
    
    Good luck, Be happy!
    
    Lily
    
    

    It is finished.
    
    Peggy *forced* my hand...the stress was too much for either of us
    to live with...last week.  I said a quick good-by to those of my
    kids who were home (the two oldest were out of town), went to the
    office, arranged for the lawyer to proceed with the filing, and
    went away by myself.  
    
    One of the respondants to my basenote was lovingly, gracious enough
    to allow me to visit for a few days.  I was strengthened by that
    care and am now back in my home-town.  I have taken my children
    to see a counsellor; we had a good talk, I think, and there will
    probably be more. 
    
    Last night I went to the same counsellor with my wife.  It turned
    out to be very ugly, very painful.  Not at all what I had hoped
    (I *wanted* her to begin accepting this...and then all my hurt just
    flooded out and it really hurt her)
    
    I have my own apartment now....across town, near my office.  My
    littlest kids are going to visit me this afternoon, for the first
    time.  I hope it doesn't turn out to be one of those "lets go to
    Daddy's because it's more *fun* there" kind of relationships.  
    
    Last night, after the bad counselling session, I took both little
    kids bike riding for awhile...until it got too dark.  I want their
    Mom's home to be fun too.
    
    I really feel alone.  It hurts and I cry a lot...(like right now).
    Someone said, once, that it's ok to cry...takes the *poison* out.
     But, I don't *like* crying....or hurting...or hurting *others*...
    especially my family.  And they hurt so Very Much!
    
    Peggy said she'd take me back *in a minute*...and she would, too.
    But, I *CAN'T* let myself do that.  Even my son's said (during their
    session with the counsellor) that they would resent that... I need
    to remain resolved for *their* sake, as well as mine.
    
    I only wanted to thank you all for your support....not dump on you
    again.  I'm sorry.
    
    By the way...my name is John Bean.  I want my friends to call me
    Tony.  That's a nickname (for Anthony) Iv'e had since childhood,
    and only DEC calls me John.
    
    Again, thanks all.
    
    Tony

         Hang in there, buddy.  It looks pretty rough from this position,
    but you know you have to survive, so do it.
    
                                   Greg

    John:
    
    Greg is right, hang in there, it does, with time, (that nasty 4-letter
    word) get better.
    
    Having travelled down the same road as you, but a long time ago,
    I can identify with what you are feeling right now.  I was married
    for 16 years and 13 of them were BAD.  So I too hung on a long time.
    Our marriage came to an end due to alcoholism and our 3 sons were
    12, 14 and 15 at the time.  Things were difficult at first but as
    soon as they were told by me that I didn't like the way things worked
    out any more than they did (and I'm the one who went to the lawyer),
    things began to straighten out for us. 
    
    One thing that helped me tremendously as much as if not more than
    understanding friends was reading.  Reading what you might ask??
    Well the answer to that question is reading some of the literature
    that's out there for people going through what you're going through
    and there's plenty of it.  The 2 books I'm really excited about
    because they helped me the most are:
    
    1) Creative Divorce
    2) Crazy Time
    
    The titles might sound strange to you but both books are filled
    with a bounty of helpful information and leave you knowing one thing:
    YOU ARE NOT ALONE.....And that's important in the beginning.  
    
    My self-image and total lack of self-esteem had me in real tough
    shape emotionally in the beginning.  I sincerely hope you read both
    of these books because if they help you 1/2 as much as they helped
    me, you'll be way ahead of the game.   
    
    As far as feelings are concerned one thing I've learned over the
    years is this:  
    
    FEELING ARE NEITHER RIGHT OR WRONG....IT'S WHAT YOU DO WITH THEM
    THAT COUNTS!!
    
    So don't feel strange about "crying", it is a cleansing process
    that too many people avoid at all costs when in the end it costs
    them lack of growth, emotional growth.  And with any kind of emotional
    growth one should expect some degree of discomfort.  The wonderful
    thing about it is that it is only temporary.   And once you've come
    out on the other side of it, you feel great.  I know, believe me,
    I really mean that John.   I could go on and on about this but I
    don't want to make this reply tedious reading.  
    
    I just wanted you to know that even thought it's been a long time
    for me.....I CAN STILL REMEMBER WHEN...Hope it helped a little....
    
    Mary Duboyce
    :^)
    
    Take care John and be good to yourself you DO deserve it!!!!
    
    

    Dear John;
    
    So much has been offered to you, yet there may be a small bit in
    this also.
    
    I've shared similiar feelings to what you've expressed, but the
    biggest "fault" I see is one I committed (once, but never again)-
    You "GAVE UP" the things most important to you to PLEASE someone
    else. To me, sharing a life is sharing those things we value. My
    current wife "shares" the things I enjoy, and I share the things
    she enjoys. It is a given that I do not always like the things she
    does, but it gives her pleasure to know that I am willing to participate
    WITH her in those things.
    
    I sense that you feel a deep sense of responsibility for her (Peggys)
    ineptitude in getting her own "support" system together, since she
    feels "family" mattters are private matters. 
    
    I see what appears to be a touch of guilt, since "she" has began
    to do some of the things which were missing for so long (and now
    that she is doing them, you appear guilty for no being able to
    'rekindle the old love'.
    
    If it is your desire (sincerley) to rekindle the old flames, there
    is (was ?) a workshop in "marital sensitivity training" by some
    churches (Catholic, Ecumenical Action COmmittee ??) which is intended
    to permit married couples (OLD married couples) to renew their
    spiritual faith (and their love) through a system of
    "parapsychological" exercises in a controlled environment. 
    
    The program doesn't MAKE people fall in love; but PERMITS them to
    examine their life values WITH each other, and  ENABLES any residual
    love to come through; enabling each couple to determine for themselves
    their "next best course of action".
    
    Sometimes a planned separation works, in that the couple absolutly
    separate for a fxed period of time, then "date" for a period of
    time, again the times are determined with the aid of a marital
    counselor who agrees with this (these) theories.
  

    g'day,
    
    re -.1, Makes sense to me... A lot of sense..  I would say worthy
    of a try, eh?
    
    Derek
    
    

    well, it is now nearly a year later... i thought i'd put a post-mortem
    here and let y'all know what has happened...
    
    the divorce was final in september.  there are some issues that
    need resolving pertaining to the kids...visitation rights stuff.
    
    i have been into and out of a couple relationships... they were
    invaluable to my self esteem and maturation process.  both women
    were wonderful, and totally different from each other and from my
    ex wife.
    
    i am moving out of state... to Mass. and to a new job that is a
    career change as well (something that greatly excites me) and i
    am staying with DEC.
    
    there is a woman i am very much in love with ... and we have set
    a wedding date.  she seems all that i ever desired.
    
    my life has never been happier...and all my family and friends have
    noticed and commented about it.
    
    again...let me thank you for your help... it was invaluable in pulling
    me through a very tough time and i'll never forget you for it.
    
    tony

    I guess it's no longer relevant, but a thought comes to mind:
    
    "You can compromise on everything except your own integrity."
    
    The trick is knowing where the line is.  Reading over your notes,
    I get the feeling you were on the wrong side.  I hope things are
    going better for you now.