Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    
    Basenoter,
    
     I here you..I guess at sometime we have all encountered someone
    going down the wrong path..When I was hooked on drugs nothing or
    nobody could tell me anything..I don't know what this girls story
    was, possible the boys were using her to get the booze because
    she was cute?? Maybe she had a problem???Perhaps you could go
    back to that mall sometime and talk to her??? It's definetly
    a tough one..Good luck..
    
    
    David
    

    What do you mean?  You helped her.  You showed her what a responsible
    adult would do under that circumstance.  And I trust that many another
    responsible adult told her the same thing.  You can't help everyone,
    and she wasn't looking for help.  A couple of years ago in Arizona on
    an Indian reservation my wife and I were stopped on our way into a
    grocery store by a grissled, vacant eyed, but probably not very old
    male Indian, who asked us to buy a can of hairspray for him.  We
    declined, of course.  He's probably dead by now, that stuff eats your
    insides out.  What can you do?  Don't feel guilty about it.  Help the
    ones who seek your help and pray for the rest.  You are obviously a
    very good and caring person.  Sleep well tonight.  - Vick

    I've been there more times than I would like to admit ...
    
    The moments that stay with me are not those which require tremendous
    effort and courage but those simple, easy, almost effortless acts of
    kindness which can be beneficial to another person; yet I look the
    other way.
    
    I've worked with teenagers in various capacities for the last 16 years.
    (since I was seventeen).  One of the moments that still me haunts was
    encountering a seventeen year old homeless kid on a NYC subway.  He
    didn't want money or a handout.  He was asking, pleading really, out
    loud for anyone to listen to him, just for someone to talk to.  Everyone
    igonred him, including me.  The doors opened, and I headed to my com-
    fortable aprtment feeling like scum.
    
    > I make many mistakes in my life, but this one will not be pardonned.
    
    I think you're entitled to let yourself off the hook this time.  You
    may have been primed with just the insight she needed to hear ... but
    she wasn't ready to receive it.  She have have been ready to open her
    head and heart to a new way of thinking ... but you weren't the one
    she needed to receive it from.  Yes, it's a missed opportunity but
    there will be many, many others.  What matters most, in my view, is
    not what we didn't do yesterday, but what we DO today.  
    
    The fact that you realized there was an opportunity at all, and that
    you felt responsible enough to consider what might have been, places
    you way ahead of the pack in my book.  I hope you never lose that.
    
    > Sorry for the long note, I need to talk to someone out there.
    
    Anytime.
    
    Allbest,
    
    LArry (DELREY::ANDRIES)

    Boy does that hit a nerve. When I was in school in Boston it used to
    tear my heart out to have these 13 and 14 year old babies come up to
    me trying to turn tricks. They weren't women they were just
    children, it was sad beyond belief. The bidding would start at $20
    but when they saw you weren't interested it would quickly drop to
    $10. They would sell their bodies to a total stranger for $10.
    One day I looked one right in the eye and asked who made her do
    this. She looked back with an expressionless face and said "My
    mommy, she needs the money" I had a pretty good idea what for
    too. They were dressed up like clowns, have you ever seen a 13
    year old handle spike heels? It was pathetic. I learned pretty
    quickly that I wasn't going to change these kids, tthey were lost.
    The best I could do was refuse to facilitate their distructive
    behaviour....

    .0 
    
    Yha done the right thing lad! Just saya no! Remember that if yha give
    her the sprits of what ever. She and her pals can be remembered in the
    year books for not graduating for high school. And memorial services
    will be held at BLABLA funeral home. Closed box. By saying no, you gave
    her a chance. And remember we cannot save the world and you have to do
    other things in your life besides charging windmills.
    
    Good luck and sleep well

    
    I think you did the right thing......I don't know if this girl had
    a problem, but I know from personal experience with a relative that
    people (including children) who are dependent on alcholol or drugs
    need to be able to admit to themselves that they have a problem.
    
    If she didn't have a problem - teenagers tend to be very rebellious
    and even if you had tried to talk to her - it may not have done any
    good anyways.
    
    At least you did tell her that you didn't feel it was right and maybe
    that made her stop and think......
    
    -Lynn
    

    
    Here in Calif it is an offence to provide alcohol to a minor.
    
    There is no need to feel guilty about not violating the law.

I don't think that the basenoter was feeling bad about not procuring
the alcohol, Bob.

DougO

    >I looked at her when she walked away, it
    >just tore me to pieces.  I feel very ashamed of myself for not helping
    >her out.  I was unable to sleep last night because I was tortured by my
    >selfishness.  She is so tiny, so young and fragile, and I did not help
    >her out........I make many mistakes in my life, but this one will not be
    >pardonned.   
    
    You are not now, nor, will you ever be, responsible for saving all the
    kids of world. Her salvation is not up to you, but to her. You are judging
    yourself very harshly, but you hold an unreasonably high standard
    for yourself. Where are her parents? Her friends?
    
    It seems to me that you have done  more community work than most, 
    for which you can be proud. You handled this incident exactly
    right, in my opinion.
    
    Also, the problem may not be as serious as you think. My friends
    and I contrived all kinds of ways of buying liquor as teenagers,
    and we did not develop alcohol problems because of it. It was
    just that experimental age, that's all. We grew up to be boring
    ordinary citizens....
    
    -roger
    
    
    -roger
    
                                                                 

    I tend to agree that this girl's situation is hardly the sort of
    tragedy that warrants hair-pulling and breast-beating. She's pretty,
    which I infer means she's well-groomed, hence sheltered and probably
    provided with a decent standard of living. She's working in the mall,
    so she's showing more effort that 95% of the world's 14-year-olds. She
    approaches you in a decent manner and is polite. That bodes well. She
    goes back to her group of four friends. SHE HAS FRIENDS! They want to
    drink. Big deal: all teenagers want to drink. She has the initiative to
    walk calmly up to a stranger. Cool in my book!
    
    I'd say this is a together kid, who'll probably make her arrangement
    with alcohol (to her credit or downfall) before most kids do, and it
    will be to her good if she manages to keep it under control.
    
    - Hoyt

    Seems like you had four choices:
    
    1.  Get the booze for her.  
    	That's patently wrong, and illegal.  She knew it, and _probably_
    would have thought you a chump for it.  Why do you suppose SHE asked,
    instead of one of the guys?  Because she knows she's pretty, and thinks
    that would have helped her chances.
    
    2.  Totally ignored her.
    	Safe, for you... but, then how would you have felt?  
    
    3.  Lectured her.
    	She wasn't looking for that... she'd probably walk away, or maybe
    even cause a scene.  At the least, she'd get angry at the
    confrontation.
    
    4.  Say no...
    	Your choice.  It was the right thing to do.  It set an example for
    her.  It set an example for her friends.  You acted responsibly.  When
    she asked why, you answered truthfully. 
    
    I think you should let it rest... Hoyt and the others are right.  You
    did the right thing.
    
    tony

    What I'm wondering is what was it about her that made you feel the way
    you did. Your chance encounter could not have lasted more than three
    minutes.  What did you know about her?  We know she was young and
    pretty (AHHHHH).  Did she give you any presonal background information in
    you conversation with her?  I'm sorry, but what I discerend from your note
    is that you made an instant judgement evaluation of her; "This kid is
    worth salvaging."  If this were a fourteen year old Black male kid
    would you have felt the same way, or a Korean male kid? I doubt it.
    
    I'm not trying to badger you but what I think is important is that you
    try to identify why you felt they way you did not just that you felt
    this way and perhaps put it in perspective and I believe you'll sleep
    peacefully.....in you HEART.

    re .12,
    
    The name of the author of .0 seems to suggest that he is a Vietnamese. 
    I could be wrong of course.
    
    Eugene

RE:0,

You did the best you could.. you took the time to answer the
question "Why not ?"  

Had you gone off on the limb to talk to her, she either wouldn't have
listened, or gotten defensive and told you to shut up, or *-off, and
that would have been that.

The last thing a 15 year old wants to hear about is what they 'Should
or Shouldn't' be doing, regardless of how cute they are....  

I'd also guess that your other suspision (The boys using her) was
probably right on the money.  chances are she wouldn't touch a drop
of the stuff...  The boys are probably the ones needing a slap.

    I agree with .12 - why the need to include a subjective description of
    her looks?  Was it part of what made you feel badly?  Or part of what
    made you pay attention in the first place?
    
    As for wearing the hair shirt, good heavens!  This country has gone
    completely bonkers over alcohol.  These days, it almost feels illegal
    just to drink!  Here's a teenage girl, doing what teenagers have always
    done and the basenoter is loosing sleep over her apparent "imminent 
    downfall".  In this string, some are even going so far as to speculate
    on why the boys are hanging around her.  It's obviously got to be some
    nasty reason that will leave her used, confused and in the gutter, right?  
    Isn't that where girls who don't stay home end up?  
    
    We've taken what is most likely an innocent case of youthful exuberance, 
    (most are), and turned it into an example of HER sordid hopelessness.
    
    A teenager tapping a harry.  My, my.  What's this world coming to.
    
    Let's get a grip, here! 
    
    Sandy

    Teenage drug and alcohol abuse is a far greater problem now than it was
    when I was in high school, I can guarantee.  This, "Ah, gee, it's just
    something the kids all do" attitude is entirely wrong-minded.  It's
    worse even then the "Ah, heck, everyone drinks at parties and then drives 
    home" attitude which is bad enough.  I agree that the basenoter did the 
    right thing.  But he was right to worry about those kids.  
    
    					- Vick

<<Here's a teenage girl, doing what teenagers have always
<<done and the basenoter is loosing sleep over her apparent 
<<"imminent downfall".

That shouldn't make it o.k. for a 15 year old girl to be looking for
a pint of Vodak should it ???

Plus...

The alarming part of this equasion is the statistics of kids 
this age who have severe problems.  Some have had a drinking
problem since they were 12 or 13.  How can it get any better for 
them if no one ever shows they care.

    It sounds like many of you are brow-beating the basenoter 
    for being too concerned.  I support his concern, no matter 
    what prompted it.  Isn't that better than cynical neglect?
    
    LArry

    re:  reconciling my statements.
    
    Of course.  I worry about the economy.  I don't feel guilty about the
    fact that the only thing I am doing about it is working hard.
    
    The basenoter, you and all of us should worry about teenagers who
    drink.  That doesn't mean that we wouldn't be doing the right thing
    to do what the basenoter did, which is exactly the thing I would have
    done.
    
    
    re:  brow-beating
    
    Seems to me the vast majority of responders said the basenoter had done 
    the right thing, but that he was right to be concerned.  
    
    
    					- Vick

I agree with the people who are attempting to make the point that we 
don't have enough information to know if the girl "had a problem" or 
was "experimenting, with her head on straight."  Is this "Sarah T., 
Portrait of a Teenage Alcoholic," or is it the type of drinking that I 
and a lot of people I know took part in when we were kids.

I dunno.  But I do know that, tacky as it is, soliciting Vodka at age 
14 doesn't make her an alcoholic.  


							--Gerry

    You don't have to be an alcoholic to be drunk enough to kill yourself
    or someone else with an automobile.  There is a great deal of good luck
    in the fact that I survived my teenage years.  That is not the way it
    should be, in my opinion.  I worry about all teenagers who drink,
    whether or not they are alcoholics.
    							- Vick

My impression is that it is in these kinds of setting that teenage
pregnancy is most likely to occur, ie. mixed gender drinking 'party'. The
odds of this happening seem to increase each day. While it is true that
most teenagers will outgrow some harmless, occaisional drinking parties,
and not become alcoholics, those that become inadvertent parents have a
much tougher time trying to 'outgrow' the problems that follow.

    Not to mention what should be our increasing concern about AIDS spread
    by casual alcohol lubricated sex.
    
    					- Vick

Re: Last few...

Geez, guys, you forgot to mention blindness, insanity, hair on the palms
of their hands, creeping Communism, secular humanism, and the Trilateral
Commission!

All over a lousy pint of booze.

Maybe,just maybe, if we started treating teenagers with a little respect
instead of going through all these kinds of contortions, things will be
a lot better.  Face it; every day society tells teenagers the same
message:  "you're no good... you're irresponsible... your opinions don't
count...".  I mean, the way people talk about them in the third person
all the time, you'd think they were some kind of sub-human species!  Is
it any wonder, then that teens try to do all kinds of "grown-up" things?
They're becoming aware of their world and aware of themselves, dammit, and
all adults want to do is hold them back.  Imagine if *you*, a full-fledged
adult, were to be forced to live under the kinds of restrictions everyone
thinks is OK for teenagers... {like, suppose you had to get your supervisor's
permission before you could use the restroom?}  I betcha YOU'D be rebelling
damned hard within a week!

To put it in a nutshell:  By *assuming* that teenagers are irresponsible,
we in effect *encourage* them to *be* irresponsible.  Adult society
sets the expectation that teenagers will behave like dangerous children,
and they oblige by acting that way.

We were all teenagers once.  We can all remember what it was like to chafe
under the restrictions imposed on us by adult society.  We can all remember
the burning desire to be "all grow'ed up" already so that the world would
stop s**ting on us.

What am I driving at here?  Simply this:  we as a society should re-examine
our attitudes towards young people.  Kids have a surprising tendency to live
up (or down) to our expectations of them.  If we expect that they'll do well,
and treat them as such, they'll do well.  If we expect that they'll be nothing
but trouble, they'll happily oblige.  Seems to me that most of the members of
this notesfile expect the latter... and they're not disappointed.

To link this to the topic of the basenote:  A teenager expressed a desire to
consume alcohol.  Immediately everyone's alarms went off on how this was an
evil desire and how this would lead to all kinds of ruin for the kids
involved.  Yet if this were an ADULT expressing the same desire, we'd think
nothing of it.

Some would respond that an adult is naturally more mature and responsible and
capable of handling alcohol (and sex!).  Sorry, I don't buy it... my
observation is that a LARGE percentage of our society has their emotional
development arrested at about age 15 or so.  The only difference is that
society expects that someone with a couple of grey hairs will handle the
situation in such a way as to not cause TOO much damage to themselves and
those around them... and lo and behold, that's generally what happens.  I bet
if we start making the same expectations of teenagers, the same thing will
happen.

A good friend of mine has a teenage daughter.  His method of raising her was
to treat her as an adult as much as possible, and only to treat her as a
child when she acted like one.  With the default mode being "adult", her
childish episodes diminished at a rate comparable with her chronological
age.  I first met her at a party he was giving.  She was 14 at the time,
but I couldn't tell her apart from the adult guests until we were introduced.
I think there's a lesson in there somewhere...

Sorry for the length, but a few of my buttons got hit today, and I had to
say what I had to say...

--jim

    Lay off the guilt trip already, geez.  I already get enough of this
    from my own 14 year old.  "Why can't I go to the R-rated film with all
    my friends???  Their parents all let them go."  Yeah, right!  Look,
    teenagers not only need limits, deep down inside they want them.  The
    worst delinquents are screaming for them.  Also, you say children are
    not expected to act responsibly.  You say adults are expected to act
    responsibly.  But you also seem to think teenagers are going to act
    responsibly if left to there own devices.  I question your authority
    in this matter.  Teenagers are in a transition between childhood and
    adulthood.  It is exactly the time when they are LEARNING
    responsibility.  It is not the time when they ARE responsible, not yet.
    It is a time when you give them very controlled responsibility that 
    they can practice with.  It is a dangerous time that needs adult
    monitoring.  If it is the role of the teenager to test their limits and 
    explore their world, then it is just as much the role of the responsible
    adult to work to keep them from going too far and destroying their
    worlds.  I'm not a mean old man who thinks teenagers are rotten.
    I can't even imagine how you would assume that from anything I've
    said.  I'm a concerned adult, and as a concerned adult it is not my
    job to wink at teenagers involved in illegal and potentially 
    dangerous behavior.  I know the forces that drive them in those
    directions.  I was a teenager myself.  And I was one of the "better"
    ones (straight A's, friendly, all the adults liked me).  My parents put
    very few restrictions on me, not nearly enough.  I by no means acted
    responsibly with the freedom given me, and as I said before, I'm lucky
    I'm alive now.  Most problems that teenagers have are caused by adults 
    who never grow up and assume the roles of responsibility that those 
    teenagers need to find in the adults around them.
    
    					- Vick

    
    There is one major problem that no one has thought of.  This
    14 or 15 year old, attractive girl/woman was willing to get into
    a car and drive away ALONE with a strange MAN!  
    
    to the basenoter: with the exception of mentioning the danger
    this girl was willing to place herself in, you did the right thing.
    Truth is, she probably wouldn't have listened anyways.
    
    To everyone else on teenagers:
    I find it alarming that she was willing to place herself at 
    physical risk to get booze.  That indicates a great need for it
    which may indicate a problem.
    I don't find it alarming that she wanted booze.  We don't know where
    she was going to drink it.  Perhaps at home!  Perhaps with girl
    friends!
    
    I do find it alarming when I hear of parents imposing rules on 
    their child, that other children do not have, to some extent.
    There is a point at which being signifigantly different from other
    children is worse than seeing a breast or some guys buns.  An
    "r" rated movie, provided you know which movie and it's not
    staring Mickey Rourke, is not going to hurt anything.  My parents
    wouldn't let me go to R movies.  Or to dances or get pierced ears,
    or watch TV more than 5 hours per week or watch Saterday Night
    Live, or cartoons or Electeric Company.  I'm not saying that I
    lost a great deal, but I thought I did.  Consequently, I was very
    different that the other kids and that causes problems.  I went
    to R movies and lied to my parents.  So will your daughter.  Tell
    me, how about your son, if you have one, can he go to R movies.
    (My brother could, that's why I'm asking.)
    
    I'm sorry if I seem to be attacking one noter.  His example was
    just very good.  As adults, I believe in setting rules for teenagers,
    I also believe in letting them breath.  That's a fine line.
    
    Rachael Barlow
    

    Rachel, 
    Yes, you are totally misinterpreting what I said, and basing your
    rather heavy-handed criticism on one simple example I gave that was
    largely irrelevant to the points I was making anyway.  But since you
    want to dwell on it, my daughters are very normal happy kids with lots
    of friends from whom they don't feel different except in ways they want
    to feel different.  We are extremely reasonable parents, but we do set
    rules and limits.  But really, the kids all tell their parents
    that all the other parents let all the other kids do X, Y and Z.  We
    parents talk to each other a lot, and we know.  It's a game teenagers 
    have played probably since cave man days.  Yes, we let our kids go to
    R rated movies if we know why they are R rated and if it is for reasons
    that we don't find objectionable.  Even our 11 year old has seen a
    few R rated movies.  The point is, a parent who does not set rules and
    limits on his/her teenage children is no parent at all, does not even
    understand the nature of the job, period.  I understand that if you had
    excessively restrictive parents (The Electric Company??? Good Grief!)
    that my one little comment may have struck a nerve.  So I will forgive
    you for lecturing me :^)  But if I ever found out that a daughter of
    mine had been soliciting stangers in a mall to buy booze for her, she 
    would be grounded for LIFE.  
    						- Vick

    -1: "...she'd be grounded for LIFE" ... and be outta there a few weeks or
    months later. Get real.
    
    I too am a big advocate of treating children as though they have adult
    traits: judgement, responsibility, liability, and so on. They may make
    decisions, their decisions are their own, and they receive the credit
    or the blame for the outcomes. They will *have* to learn this someday,
    and I prefer that they learn it while they are children, when the
    consequences don't include jail terms, mortgage foreclosure, divorce,
    etc.
    
    A relevant case in point is WHERE DO THEY LEARN TO DRINK ALCOHOL? My
    general theory is that everyone (who doesn't have some religious or
    cultural prohibition) has to confront the problem of booze sooner or
    later. Learnings include: 
    
        If I have more to drink, I'm going to (1) be sick, (2) feel awful
        in the morning, (3) be illegal and dangerous driving home, (4) make
        a fool of myself, (5) run up an even bigger tab; and maybe: I CAN'T
        STOP ONCE I START.
    
    We tend to learn these things the usual way, i.e. the hard way, through
    experience. The conventional model practiced by "good parents" is to
    forbid alcohol, which means kids sneak it in highschool, driving (!)
    around with a bottle of you-name-it, in circumstances ideal for getting
    up to all sorts of hazardous adventures. Then the kids head off to
    college, where they find themselves with ready access to booze, next to
    no skills for dealing with it, and they drink to great excess.
    Fortunately, college is a bit home-like in that the students are fairly
    well protected from excessive self-destruction (at $8-20K/year!). Those
    who avoid college are worse off.
    
    Is there another model? How about learning to drink at home? My brother
    was a rigorous, demanding parent with two apparently perfect daughters
    who obeyed the many strictures he imposed -- he THOUGHT. In fact,
    they'd been drinking and smoking dope for several years, and his dose
    of reality only arrived when their excess showed up in their grades and
    their health. He did the expected, i.e. REALLY cranked up the rules and
    the punishments, and his daughters simply left. One spent her sophomore
    year at various girlfriends' houses. The younger's whereabouts weren't
    known for weeks at a time. After much heart-searching and horrible
    worry, my brother and his wife hit on another strategy: if you're going
    to party, then please do it AT HOME. My brother put a *keg* in the
    basement rec-room. He imposed and personally monitored (it being at HOME)
    exactly two rules: none of your friends may drink here until I've
    spoken with their parents, and none of your friends may drive home
    (actually implemented as "none of your friends may drive *here*").
    
    And lots of things happened, most of them good. The girls were home,
    and they had *much* better communication with their parents. The girls
    learned how to control their drinking. One still "parties" on weekends,
    but at comparatively moderate levels. The other has admitted alcoholism
    and has managed to stop drinking, with TREMENDOUS benefits to her
    self-image, school work, etc. This didn't happen overnight, but my
    brother's acknowledgement that they were GOING to drink was a crucial
    event which let them take the next steps towards becoming responsible
    adults.
    
    By bringing the booze into the house, my brother removed his daughters
    from physical danger (and their friends as well). He also transformed
    the issue from "Up yours, I'll do what I want (sneakily)" to "Do I
    *really* feel like another beer?" We all learn about booze sooner or
    later. I advocate sooner, under the safest conditions possible, at
    HOME.
    
    - Hoyt

 re: .27 (Victor)

 <applause!> Quite a few things hit home. Well said.

 re: .28 (Rachael)

>     I find it alarming that she was willing to place herself at 
>    physical risk to get booze. 

 I'm willing to bet she had no idea what sort of danger she might have been 
putting herself into.

>    I do find it alarming when I hear of parents imposing rules on 
>    their child, that other children do not have, to some extent.

 This appears to be related to your overly-protected childhood. I don't think
that if every parent on the street allows their 7th graders to be out to 
midnight that I would be wrong to insist that my child come in earlier...
On the other hand, as a teenager I also had a greater number of restrictions
than most of my friends, so I know where you're coming from.

 re: .30 (Hoyt)

>    -1: "...she'd be grounded for LIFE" ... and be outta there a few weeks or
>    months later. Get real.

 Without knowing how Vic's daughters are, your presumption that she would just
bolt is rather tenuous. Had my parents grounded me for life when they found
my little baggie of herbs, I would have taken it if for no other reason than
to get them to pay for my college education. (A case in point; I wanted to get
an earring, dad said "if you do you can pay for your own college education."
I still don't have one.) My parents were more than upset that their little
boy was smoking "grass"; they responded by saying a punishment was coming but
they didn't know what to do yet. I was in limbo for awhile. In the final
analysis, I wasn't ever particularly severely punished (they withheld 1 Xmas 
present from me for four months until my b-day.) And I even quit for a fairly
decent stretch.

>     A relevant case in point is WHERE DO THEY LEARN TO DRINK ALCOHOL?

 In my case, I learned how to drink at college. I hardly ever drank in high 
school, preferring instead to smoke "grass." (I believed I was less likely to
get caught.) And I drank ALOT once I finally started. Unfortunately, I still
like to drink more than I should even though it is considerably less than what 
I used to drink. (Now I only drink friday pm to sunday and rarely have more
than a sixpack at a sitting.)

>How about learning to drink at home?

 It's against the law if the kids involved are under the legal age.

>I advocate sooner, under the safest conditions possible, at HOME.

 You advocate breaking the law. (I think you have a strong moral position if a 
weak legal one.)

 The Doctah

    I hope everyone understands that when I said "grounded for LIFE" I was
    being facetious.  But there would be some form of punishment, of
    course.
    
    I don't think I would recommend the free-beer-at-home type alcoholic
    education.  It sounds good in theory, and perhaps with the right type
    of adult running it (making SURE kids don't park down the street and
    walk in, etc.) it might have some benefit.  But I know I wouldn't let
    my kids go to something like that, sorry, call me an oppressive parent
    if you will but...  Somehow if something like that were really such
    a good idea I think it would be a widespread practice, something 
    recommended in the "how to" books, etc.  
    
    						- Vick

Re: a few back:

Where did I ever say anything about not setting limits for young people?
What I was advocating was treating them with the EXPECTATION that they
will behave in an adult manner.  This in itself is a limit; it IMPLIES
a whole bunch of other limits.  Part of the learning process is teaching
young people (a) where those limits are, and more importantly (b) in our
society limits are often fuzzy and flexible.

In short, I'm advocating teaching kids how to THINK for themselves and
how to arrive at ethical conclusions FOR THEMSELVES.  This involves, in
part, dealing with the NATURAL consequences of their actions... not an
artificially imposed set.  Some "natural" consequences of irresponsible
drinking are getting sick, losing motor control, getting yourself into
dangerous situations, being an unsafe driver, and generally making an
@ss of yourself.  As opposed to an "unnatural" consequence, which would
be getting grounded "for life".

Re: .30, .31

I'm no bible-thumper, but I think one valuable lesson that can be drawn
from the Garden of Eden brouhaha is that forbidding something desirable
is a very effective way of making sure it happens.  My parents let me
drink IN THEIR HOUSE pretty much as young as I wanted to.  As a result,
when it finally came time to flee the nest and go off to college, I had
no crying NEED to get blotto every weekend like a lot of other folks
there.  I KNEW (from EXPERIENCE) what alcohol REALLY was like.  I KNEW
it wasn't some magic potion of sophistication or adulthood; at the same
time I knew it wasn't some evil devil-juice that I could get a perverse
pleasure out of using just out of spite.

The whole point I've been trying to make is that parents and other adult
caretakers have to help young people learn how to chart their OWN ethical
course in life.  Trying to keep kids under your thumb all the time with
strict rules, harsh penalties, and no room for other ways of seeing the
world only works as long as you're physically there... because all of the
ethical judgment in the situation is coming from YOU.  As soon as you're
NOT there, the kids have NO tools with which to make ethical judgments
on their own, and anything can happen.  The threat of harsh punishment
is no substitute for the ability to make independent judgments; after all,
punishment only comes if someone finds out about it!

> You advocate breaking the law. (I think you have a strong moral position if a 
> weak legal one.)

Well, doctah, this in a nutshell is the lesson that kids should learn:  laws
and rules are no substitute for one's own ethical judgment.  OK; make that two
lessons:  the cornerstone of civilization is RESPECT; respect for individuals,
respect for institutions, and respect for society as a whole.  Respect does,
however, have to be EARNED.  That which is NOT worthy of respect should not
receive it just because someone else tell you to.  Respect must also be
MUTUAL in order to be effective.  So, for example, if the law is to be 
respected by individuals, it must in turn respect individuals.

Kids actually kind of know this on an instinctive level; parents who EARN
the respect of their kids (and who are prepared to respect their kids in
return) receive it.  Those who bluster about DEMANDING respect but who
aren't prepared to respect the sniveling little brats in return MAY get
obedience (at least until their backs are turned), but they won't get
respect.

 I see people responding with things like "sigh." I think this is evidence of
one of the limitations of electronic communications. This has been a very
entertaining and informative note. Alot of really cool communication is going 
on. I think there is some disagreement here, but it is all very respectful.
Don't despair because someone says something that might seem to be negative;
for the most part we seem to be communicating very well. Since you can't get the 
instantaneous clarifications that you could get from a personal conversation,
don't take offense when it seems people are missing your point or "dwelling"
on a minor point or whatever. The communication that is occurring here seems to 
be of high quality and I'd hate to see people stop communicating because they 
think they aren't being heard.

 the Doctah

    .34 
    
    In the same way that I earn my kids respect by being a fair,
    reasonable, caring, nurturing, and limit-setting parent, they earn
    their freedoms by demostrating responsibility when it is given to
    them.  I think we agree on this.  I don't think anyone is advocating
    overly rigid rules.
    
    Your previous note seemed to be putting many of us down as thinking
    teenagers were sub-human.  But all I can see any of us were doing was
    worrying about some teenagers who were clearly out-of-bounds.  I don't 
    think any one of us was thinking what rotten people teenagers are.
    Teenagers are worrisome, yes, no question.
    
    							- Vick
    

Re: .34

>    Your previous note seemed to be putting many of us down as thinking
>    teenagers were sub-human.

Sorry; I was generalizing about the attitudes held about teenagers by
society at large.  I wasn't trying to malign anyone in particular in
this discussion...

>    But all I can see any of us were doing was
>    worrying about some teenagers who were clearly out-of-bounds.

I think this is where we differ... I guess I saw the behavior involved
as less "clearly out-of-bounds" as you do.

To put it another way:  The desire to consume alcohol is not "clearly
out-of-bounds" for an adult, yet society seems to have decided that it
IS for a teenager.  A lot of the frustration of being a teenager is that
the law defines "lines" which circumscribe behavior, yet growth is a
continuous process where there ARE no lines.  The law says that at age
20 years, 364 days, 23 hours, and 59 minutes, you are not responsible
enough to be trusted with a bottle of beer, yet one minute later you are.
Teens recognize in an intuitive way that this is not so; that in reality
the "bounds" are a lot fuzzier.

As for the OTHER things in this situation that set our red flags off...
those are a separate discussion.  But think about them for a second;
because they're VERY germane to MENNOTES.  Why is it that we smell
"nothing but trouble" when an attractive teenaged female (a) is hanging
out with teenaged boys and wants to go drinking, and (b) is willing to
get in a car with a *gasp* STRANGE MAN to do so?  Is it because we make
the assumption that all men are after "one thing" (oh, damn, I'll say it;
S*E*X)?  And is it ALSO because we make the assumption that sex is a Bad
Thing for teenagers (again, why is it so bad for teens and not for adults?
A single adult woman with an unwanted pregnancy is in just as much of a
pickle as a single teen with an unwanted pregnancy...).  And is it because
we ALSO make the assumption that as Nice Men it is our duty to protect
young, innocent girls from the horrible ravages of Bad Men? (why is it that
fathers are often insanely protective of their daughters' sexuality, and
not nearly so much so for their sons?).

I guess what I've been saying throughout all my tirades has been: When you
start to see red, STOP for a minute, figure out what chain of assumptions
pushed your buttons, and CHALLENGE THOSE ASSUMPTIONS.  If the assumptions
are correct, they'll survive the challenge.  More likely, though, the
assumptions are incomplete; simplified versions of reality to make thinking
go faster.  As anyone who's ever tried tried their hand at carpentry will
tell you, if you make a small measurement error every time, the end result
will look like a disaster.  The same goes for thinking; a few misconceptions
or over-simplifications can cause a disastrously incorrect chain of thought.

--jim

>To put it another way:  The desire to consume alcohol is not "clearly
>out-of-bounds" for an adult, yet society seems to have decided that it
>IS for a teenager.  A lot of the frustration of being a teenager is that

In my mind it is clearly unhealthy to consume alcohol, regardless of age.
Recent research in hardening of the arteries has acknowledged that coating
the vein and artery walls with placque could be the body's natural attempt
to either repair a damaged wall, or protect if from something corrosive in
the blood. I don't have to stretch too far to wonder if alcohol, tanic acid
(some teas, coffee), nicotine, and other things that we take into our
bodies could be corrosive to the artery walls.

>Teens recognize in an intuitive way that this is not so; that in reality
>the "bounds" are a lot fuzzier.

I agree - sure makes setting limits interesting. Invariably there are
conflicts in interpretation, at least until the judgment development is
well under way.

>And is it ALSO because we make the assumption that sex is a Bad
>Thing for teenagers (again, why is it so bad for teens and not for adults?
>A single adult woman with an unwanted pregnancy is in just as much of a
>pickle as a single teen with an unwanted pregnancy...).

They may be in the same pickle from the standpoint of having an unplanned
child in 9 months, but the overall situations are quite different in my
view. The teenager is robbed (or has sacrificed) many of the normal
developmental processes (and downright fun) that can take place in the
teen years, while the adult woman has already completed this growth period.
The burden of supporting the child is likely to be much greater for the
teen, especially if the woman is already established in gainful employment
with marketable skills that the teen is likely lacking. The resulting child
can receive a vastly different upbringing as a result of these factors.

>we ALSO make the assumption that as Nice Men it is our duty to protect
>young, innocent girls from the horrible ravages of Bad Men? (why is it that
>fathers are often insanely protective of their daughters' sexuality, and
>not nearly so much so for their sons?).

Guess who has to pay the bills for the teen daughter's maternity and
offspring? It is a rare case when the male involved can or will, or that
the male's parents agree to split the costs. It can also be heart breaking
for the girl's parents to watch her go through all the problems of trying
to raise a child before her own childhood may be completed.

>I guess what I've been saying throughout all my tirades has been: When you
						 ^^^^^^^
Yes - I wonder if the same discussion could happen without the added
baggage?

>In my mind it is clearly unhealthy to consume alcohol, regardless of age.
>Recent research in hardening of the arteries has acknowledged that coating
>the vein and artery walls with placque could be the body's natural attempt
>to either repair a damaged wall, or protect if from something corrosive in
>the blood.

    	That seems to conflict with the French studies showing that a
    	healthy consumption of wine each day prevents hardening of the
    	arteries and the many heart related problems associated with it.

    	Another recent study found that the average German man receives
    	over one _fourth_ of his daily nutrients by consuming beer. They	
    	view their beer and hops as we Americans view our vitamins.

    	Regardless, I hardly think that alcohol is such a dangerous thing
    	for a teenager. It is the way our society treats alcohol that is
   	the REAL problem here. If it were just another food that kids had 
    	for dinner at home since age six, it hardly has the 'banished 
    	material' effect on teenagers. Instead we prevent them from having 
    	it and mystify it by making it "only for adults." I feel that leads 
    	to the present dominant view in our culture that "beer and wine = 
    	get drunk" vs. "beer and wine = nutrition" as in Europe.

    	None of my European friends ever said "Hey, lets snag a case of Bud
    	and spend our Saturday afternoon drinking it," whereas for many of
    	my American high school friends this was the biggest deal. 

	It's no coincidence the same thing is true with our views on sex
    	here too (being a Puritan country). What bigger incentive can there 
    	be than making it contraband and "for adults only" vs. explaining 
    	the important issues go with the territory.

    	Can't have wine with your meal until age 21, but you can drive more
    	horsepower than a WWII fighter at age 16?? Why does it seem we do  
    	so many things backwards here?

    	-Erik

    Absolutely brilliant Erik,
    
    I'd like to point out that you can get rid of a lot of alcohol
    related crime by giving MORE free access to it not less. This has been
    proven in Scotland (alcohol crime down 10% each year since a loosening
    of the laws) and in England (first year was last year). If you take a
    look at how much serious crime is alcohol related you'll see just how
    worthwhile this can be.
    
    I live in France where a bottle of water and and a bottle of wine have
    similar prices. I am not surrounded by crazed drunks.
    
    Dave Wood

    RE .38
    
    
>    	Can't have wine with your meal until age 21, but you can drive more
>    	horsepower than a WWII fighter at age 16?? Why does it seem we do  
>    	so many things backwards here?
>
>    	-Erik

    WWII fighter planes had 1000+ HP engines. Do you know of any production
    cars with that HP rating? You definately have this backwards!
    
    There was a problem that the French were studying a few years back
    where many of their children (young) were coming to school with a 'buzz
    on' and being unable to adequately concentrate and learn. This was 
    reported on national (US) news. I remember it clearly because I had 
    always been told, as you pointed out in your reply, that this was 
    not a problem.
    
    
    Steve

    I'd like to know more about the Scottish statistics.  Did highway
    deaths due to drunk driving go down, or did the alcohol related crime
    rate go down just because there were no more minor possession crimes?
    For example, if you made marijuana sale and possession legal then
    certainly marijuana related crimes would fall to almost zero.
    How have they measured the impact on the society?  Also, I'm not sure
    it is valid to claim that a cure that works in a country, Scotland,
    where, for instance, they probably have only a dozen murders a year,
    would necessarily work here in the US of A.  The idea sounds good, but
    I remember reading that whereas the leading cause of death in the US
    was from heart attack (I think) that the leading cause of death in
    France was from cirrhosis of the liver, and that alcoholism is a
    big problem there (not that it isn't here).  I guess I'm saying I am
    always skeptical of the easy fix, and I have a lot of questions that
    I'd like to have answers for.
    					- Vick

    Absolute details (like 6 less murders) I can't give. The 10% is 
    accurate and has been a steady 10% fall over four/five years. 
    Alcohol related crimes are things like assault/muggings etc -
    crimes against 'the person'. I don't have a list of what they are.
    
    There are no laws against alcohol possesion in the UK as far as I am
    aware. Scotland was the 'pilot' for England and Wales so I imagine
    that the government were suitably impressed with the statistics.
    One aspect I failed to mention was that people were found to drink
    more but get drunk less. There will probably be longer term health
    problems with this.
    
    France, as far as I can see has no laws at all regarding alcohol use at 
    all and I believe that this is similar to many other EEC countries.
    (There is something about under 14's in restuarants though)
    
    I have no idea about drink/driving deaths but I am reasonably sure
    that the numbers are so low anyway that there would be no statistical
    significance in any changes.
    
    Dave Wood

    RE .42  Alcohol in the UK
    
    I was over there a couple of years ago and found out that you cannot
    buy rubbing alcohol in a drugstore. Do people attempt to drink it?
    
    They did seem pretty liberal (children in bars) about drinking alcohol.
    
    
    Steve

    	You may have had a terminology problem. The average British person
    would be quite unable to direct you to a drugstore. If you had asked in
    a chemists shop for surgical spirit you would probably have obtained
    what you wanted (and yes, people do attempt to drink it).
    
    	I am a bit rusty on British laws, having lived outside the country
    for 10 years, but I think from the age of 16 to 18 you can be served
    with beer or cider in a pub. In France the regulations are similar in
    bars, but in a restaurant and served with a meal the rules are more
    relaxed.
    
    	France *does* have some sort of possesion laws. I am not sure of
    the exact figure, but I think you have to obtain a transport permit to
    have more than about 1 gallon of spirits or 5 gallons of wine in a
    public place. This is mainly to prevent people from taking stuff to
    Beaujolais, Cognac or Champagne from other parts of France and getting
    it falsely labelled.

    RE .45
    
    I was in a 'chemist' shop and they said I could not buy it. I told them
    what I wanted it for (a rash, worked fine over here).
    
    Steve

    Shoulda flashed yer scalpel at 'em, 
    shewed 'em yer a surgeon!  You'd have
    had a spirited response.
                            Wil

    Salut,
    
    	You are right DAVE, we do have laws in FRANCE concerning wine and
    liquors.
    
    	The most important one is that it is absolutely forbidden to sell
    (or serve) alcohol (wine and liquor) in shops, supermarket, bar and
    restaurants to people who are minor (less than 18 years old).
    	And of course :" BOIRE OU CONDUIRE    "DRINK OR DRIVE
    			 IL FAUT CHOISIR"      YOU MUST CHOOSE"
    		
    	France is and has always been a country which produces wine and
    alcohol. It was a non negligible part of the economy and we had to live
    with alcohol for centuries. We could not prohibit alcohol without
    unbalancing the national economy.
    
    	I lived in Scandinavian countries and in Germany. I know a lot of
    american and english people and I my conclusion is that in France,
    Spain and Italy, wine is part of the culture. It is not the same thing in 
    the "anglo-saxon" countrie, except in the south and west of Germany.
    
    	I was very surprised when I saw that in the "anglo-saxon" countries
    you offer wine just like fruit-juice or caffee. I had never seen that
    before. In France when to offer wine or alcohol it is generally during the
    meal (or just before and just after) or it is because you also offer 
    something to eat with: aperitive buiscuits, cakes, cheese, delicatessen...
    
    	The consummation of wine in France changed a lot during the 30 past
    years. Although it is easy for them to get wine if they really want,
    the young people are rarely drinking wine. They drink more fruit-juice,
    coke or beer.
    The vine growers explain that they had to work a lot on the quality of
    the wine they produce, because the french people are drinking less wine
    but they are now expecting good quality one. Consequently the producers 
    had to improve the quality and find new market abroad.
    
    	As far as I am concerned I generally open on bottle of wine for one
    of the meal during the week-end. Sometimes during the week, but it
    rare.  I have, what we can call a good cellar, with around 60 bottles. 
    As my parents did, I never buy and have never bought wine in a
    shop or worse in supermarket. I order directly by the producers and I
    know the producers. I have visited their farming and have visited their
    cellars: ALSACE, BOURGOGNE, MUSCADET, GROS-PLAN, CABERNET, BORDEAUX,
    COTE-DU-RHONE, CHINON, COTES-DE-PROVENCE, ANJOU, BOURGUEUIL, CAHORS and
    of course CHAMPAGNE.
     I have also german wine from german producers I know, and I would like
    to learn more on Italian wine. 
     But I can tell you that I have never been drunk once in my life. I
    appreciate, learned a lot on wine and cannot understand that someone
    can drink until (s)he becomes drunk. I never drink wine without eating
    something.
    
    	I am very happy that now the vine growers who produce low quality
    wine are going bankrupt.
    	
    	The worst example of alcoholism I saw in my life was when I lived
    in Sweden where the population has no wine culture. They drink
    on friday night absolutely everything as far as it is written wine on
    the bottle, even if the bottle is a plastic one.
    
    	I think that a big part of the population in France is able to 
    recognize a good wine, but not everybody. It depends very often on the
    social class you are from.  Of course we also have very famous specialists
    who can recognize a wine just by the smeel and the taste. They can tell the
    year and the parcel of the vineyard it comes from.
    
    	It is also known that when english people knows wine, they are very
    good "connaisseurs" and sometimes better than the french.
    
    	By living abroad I learned the difference between the level of life
    and the quality of life. Wine is part of the quality of life and I am
    happy to be able to appreciate wine. 
    
    THIERRY
    	
    Notes: Only low quality wine is the same price as a bottle of water.
           

    Basenoter;  I feel that you did all that you could do, and I feel that
    you were RIGHT in your decision.  I also know how you feel, in regards
    to not being able to help.  To help someone, that person needs to want
    help; One can't force their opinion (right or wrong) on another human
    being.  YOU DID GOOD, Please don't feel that you are responsible for
    not doing more, you couldn't.  The guilt that you are going thru, I
    go thru on a weekly;  I work (volunteer) with kids that are alcoholics/	
    addicts (one in the same).  I can only do so much, I want to take the
    pain away from them, I want them to have the life I never had, I want
    them to love and be loved.  But I AM ONLY HUMAN, I can give comfort
    and a shoulder to cry on, to listen to them and respect them for who
    they are.  Thats it.
    
    To those people who responded about alcohol and all rubish in other
    countries, and the rights of kids to Russian Roulette(Sp);  I feel
    and I emphasize "I FEEL", that your wrong.  I am an addict/alcoholic,
    I played with ALL of the "SH*T" form the age of 12, I am now 29 and
    in my first year of being clean/sober.  In no other country in the
    world
    is alcohol advertized like it is in the good ole' US of A.  There is 
    some much that I would like to say, I can't, they are my feelings,
    my values, my opinions;  And I would not justify the basenoters
    feelings.  
    
    Basenoter, again you did good.  
    
    Thank you!!
    
    Jeff