Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    
    I know there were at least a few men here who had participated in the
    Sterling Men's weekends, and perhaps the follow-on groups.  I'm not
    sure if they're still here, or if they wish to respond either here in
    the notesfile, or via electronic mail.
    
    -Jody
    

    re .0:
    
    Yup, I did (as Jody mentioned, I'm talking about the Sterling
    Men's weekend) -- I'd be glad to talk about it with you.
    
    					andrew

    So what is a "Sterling Men's weekend?"
    
    		Alfred

    A Sterling Men's weekend is an event that's held three times a year
    in this part of the country.  It's also held in other parts, notably
    in Oakland, California and Vancouver BC.
    
    The purpose of the Sterling Men's Weekend is: "To engage in the process
    of locating the source of your power and discovering and dissolving the
    barriers between you and manifesting that power so that you experience
    total freedom as only a man can, and with that freedom be the man you
    always wanted to be."
    
    A Sterling Men's weekend is a gathering of men.  It lasts about two
    days, and has been described as "A modern day initiation rite."
    
    When I went, I was asked to sign a promise of confidentiality, which
    requested that I don't divulge the details of the Weekend.  I signed,
    and therefore can't give details of what happened, but I can talk
    about how it affected me.
    
    Personally, I found it to be one of the most profound events in my
    life.  It helped me come to terms with my own manhood; it allowed me to
    look at my father with new, more respectful eyes.  It helped me to
    break through a lot of personal barriers, and to move closer to
    becoming "the man I always wanted to be."
    
    					andrew

.5> :						"To engage in the process
.5> of locating the source of your power and discovering and dissolving the
.5> barriers between you and manifesting that power so that you experience
.5> total freedom as only a man can, and with that freedom be the man you
.5> always wanted to be."

Would you please translate that into simple .. er ... ah ... language
that a damned old Texas dirt farmer could understand.

Thanks,
Bubba

    Sounds like a beer ad to me, Bubba.

re: .6
    
.5> of locating the source of your power and discovering and dissolving the
.5> barriers between you and manifesting that power so that you experience
.5> total freedom as only a man can, and with that freedom be the man you
.5> always wanted to be."
    
    
    I'll give it a try, Bubba.  Please correct me if I'm wrong, Andrew.
    
    
    The world lays a lot of shit at your doorstep about what you should and
    shouldn't be, what you should and shouldn't do.  
    
    There's a lot of guilt and shame attached to certain parts of being a
    man these days, and that often interferes with how fully men can get
    who, what, and why they are the waay they are.  
    
    For men to really GET who they are, where their power is (in living,
    loving, growing, being), they may have to look at this.  
    
    Looking at it with other men can help - because you can grow and share
    insights together as you grow.  
    
    It's freeing to feel complete.  But it's hard to be complete in today's
    world.  
    
    And it's hard to feel and use *power* in the world - because of
    the guilt, the shame, the stories and theories the world makes up about
    power - what it really is, and what it isn't. 
    
    Is that clear as mud?

    
    -Jody
    

>    Is that clear as mud?

    Yes. I guess it makes sense to people who talk like that on a regular
    basis. I think I sort of understand but I'm not really sure. Sort of
    48 hours of group therapy? 

>    For men to really GET who they are, where their power is (in living,
>    loving, growing, being), they may have to look at this.  
    
    	GET == understand? "look at" == sit around and think out loud
    about? What is this "power" though?
    
    			Alfred

>    When I went, I was asked to sign a promise of confidentiality, which
>    requested that I don't divulge the details of the Weekend.  

    This pretty much rules out me ever going to one. I have a major problem
    with self help events that prohibit one from talking about what went on
    during the event. I'm not sure how to put the feeling into words but it
    really bothers me. It inhibits the trust I would need to have in those
    running it before participating.

    			Alfred

    New Age?  Not really, if you mean something like Robert Bly's
    workshops -- I attended a Bly workshop as well, and while it
    was interesting, it was far too intellectual for my taste.
    
    The Sterling Weekend was much more "from the gut" -- visceral, 
    rather than intellectual.
    
    About the confidentiality -- I didn't like it at first either, but 
    in retrospect, I'd say this:  parts of this weekend are very personal, 
    and private; an analogous situation might be a couple's honeymoon 
    night.  Talking about something like this feels inappropriate.  Also, 
    each weekend is different from previous weekends.  If I told you about 
    the details of my weekend, it might mis-set your expectations.  For 
    these reasons, the request for confidentiality seemed reasonable.

    RE: .11 I don't have a problem with confidentiality about what
    individuals say or who they are. It's the process that I'd be more
    interested in and that's that part I don't understand keeping quiet.
    I understand about each session being different. I've been involved
    in some things that were like that. (A training session for prisoners
    that I helped team teach.) Every session is different. It depends on
    the people who are attending and their needs and abilities. However,
    telling people the general process and outline doesn't seem to hurt
    a bit. If someone is going to be put off by knowing how a previous
    weekend went I'm concerned that either the attendee is to "fragile"
    for such a week end or the process is very flawed. Or both. That may or may
    not be the case but I have a hard time assuming otherwise.
    Confidentiality is generally used to protect someone. Who is it to 
    protect in this case? That I'm not sure about.

    RE: New Age I'm not sure what New Age is and I know it's about a lot
    of things. But people "into" New Age sort of things do seem to use the
    sort of language you quoted as to what the week end was all about.

    BTW, I still don't feel like I know much more about the week end then I did
    after reading .0. I suspect language is getting in the way as much as
    is my need to understand the process.

    			Alfred

    re .10, I would agree with you, if the situation applied to me (if I
    were a man, or if the weekend were for women).  It sounds to me like
    the people who run the weekend know that if they divulged everything
    that went on that fewer people would want to go (meaning less profit
    for them?)
    
    Lorna
    

    No, Mike.  Those are stag parties you're thinking of.

    RE: .14  Bingo.....
    
    RE: .16  I've yet to see "a bunch of guys sit around and beat on a drum
             whilst crying on each other's shoulder" at any of the stag
             parties I've ever attended. Would seem to be an odd group if
             that was the case.
    
    Paul C.

    It's only the groom-to-be that cries.

    re:.18
    
    Yeah, but he only cries until the honeymoon.
    
    
    From that point on, he begs.

    Mike, as I stated in reply 831.5, I promised not to reveal details
    of the weekend I attended.  While I don't entirely agree with this
    stipulation, it is a promise I made, and I choose to abide by the
    agreement.
    
    One of the best reasons I'd suggest for doing it is simply this: it's
    48 hours in the company of a lot of men, and only men -- that's not
    something you can easily find these days.
    
    The Men's Weekend was a place where I was able to face some of my
    deepest fears, and embrace some of my deepest joys.  
    
    Incidentally, there are also Sterling Women's Weekends, where large
    groups of women gather together and learn and experience new stuff --
    since I've never attended a Women's Weekend, I don't know what they
    learn.
    					andrew

    
    eeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, who would want to spend 48 hours in
    the company of only men?????
    
    Tony
    

    Actually, yes, that's the point -- they do want you to take it
    on faith that you'll get your money's worth.  I certainly did, 
    and the vast majority of those who participated certainly did.
    
    As for the price, it's $500.00 US. 
    
    					andrew

    A good friend of mine attended the Sterling workshop in Oakland, and
    found it to be a wonderful experience. He now attends a follow-up
    group here in L.A.. His feeling about it was similar to Andrew's. I've
    other friends that have attended Bly's workshops and found them very
    valuble.
    
    

    FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS!
    
    Wow.  And you can't even talk about what went on.
    
    Wow.

    My mind still boggles.
    
    I once attended a men's workshop which was a buildup to a weekend
    retreat.  The workshop was free. 
    
    The group started getting touchy-feelie.  I'm not a big fan of
    touchy-feelie-ness.  When it was suggested that part of the problem
    with my humanity was my resistence to touchy-feelies, I realized that
    the session was going to be one heck of a waste of time.
    
    I was bummed that I had to pay $4 for parking.
    
    $500 would of had me ripped.
    
    Wow.
    

    If you were to design your own "Men's Workshop, etc." what would be
    some of the "elements" that you would cover?
    
    This is just a general question directed to no one in particular...

>    If you were to design your own "Men's Workshop, etc." what would be
>    some of the "elements" that you would cover?
    
    1)  How to SHUT THE #&(* UP and LISTEN.
    
    2)  How those pre-stubble-look GQ guys used to shave without cutting
    themselves.
    
    3)  How to avoid alimony.  (Hint: Over 60% of all divorces begin with
    marriage.)
    
    4)  How to hug and kiss other guys, ick phooey.  Special guest
    lecturers: Jerry Lewis and Joey Bishop. 
    
    5)  Tattoos: Putting the Patterns Back into Male Pattern Baldness.
    
    6)  Pot-holder knitting 101.
    

    Casino gambling for profit.
    Heavy machinery mechanics for techno-weenies.
    Effective solar plexus and latisimus dorsai building.
    Emotions; Effective avoidance strategies.
    How to appear manly when you know squat about pro sports.
    How to get what you want by saying, "I love you."
    
    Still wouldn't be worth $500, though.  
    
    $500.  Wow.

    .31
    
    #4) Ray, you kiss em. I am happy doing women.:) Thank-you!'^)
    
    Insofar as number 1), HOW TO SHUT THE #&(* UP AND LISTEN. That one
    there I would agree with you on. And 2), I too have always been amazed
    how the hell they look like they have nubs and look good. I tryed that
    once. Looked like I could scare the numbers off a clock face, break
    mirrors from 10 paces, and strike a match and I don't smoke!:) 
    
    Geo

    The nicest thing I was ever told about my stubble was "Wow, it makes
    you look so SLEAZY!"  
    
    Ray

  I was wondering why it took so long for a topic to get going and actually
discuss the Sterling Men's weekend.... The responses in here have been
interesting. I too did the Men's weekend over 2 and a half years ago and
remain very active with the Sterling Institute. The weekend had a profound
effect on how I view the world and how my relationships work. I have had
a great deal of success with women since the weekend and have many more real,
honest, relationships with men that are based on trust and respect then I ever
had before. The weekend was worth MUCH more then $500 bucks to me. Actually,
the vast majority of men I know, who have done the weekend, feel it was worth
much more to them.

  The part that saddens me is the point brought up a little earlier concerning
trust... ya that's what a lot of this is all about. If men would just trust
each other we probably would even need a Men's weekend around. It does require
a leap of faith to actually go to this weekend but then, that's half the battle
of "discovering and dissolving your barriers". And for those who would never
spend $500 on "something like this"...  Aren't you worth it? 

     Anyway....

  Concerning Confidentiality... my take on it is a little different. First of
all, yes the weekend is totally confidential because the men there need to know
it is a safe place to really bring them selves. Also the weekend is a journey.
It is a path that starts Saturday morning and continues till the end of the
weekend. This path has very specific purposes and process that the participant
must go through. If we were to tell you ANYTHING about the Journey we would
be stealing that part of the weekend from YOU. (This is based on the idea that
every man should do and may do the men's weekend)

  There are at least 10 men who have gone to this weekend in my building(LMO)
I find it is great to have these men around who have enjoyed this common
experience. If there are still men who don't get what Andrew and I are talking
about you are welcome to contact me (and Andrew I assume) and we would be glad
to explain further.

	Thanks for your time,

Chris  AIDEV::CHANDLER
 

    >If there are still men who don't get what Andrew and I are talking
    >about you are welcome to contact me (and Andrew I assume) and we would
    >be glad to explain further.
     
    You assume, correctly, Chris.
    
    					andrew       

    re .35
    
>a leap of faith to actually go to this weekend but then, that's half the battle
>of "discovering and dissolving your barriers". And for those who would never
>spend $500 on "something like this"...  Aren't you worth it? 
    
    Sorry, but a blanket claim of "trust me, it's worth $500" is simply too
    good a way to get ripped off if you have no idea of what you're letting
    yourself in for.

    
    You have no idea of what you'll get in some weekends like this because
    they teach you about things you aren't aware you don't know.
    
    They're things you can't posit or conceive of before the weekend,
    because you don't know they're possible or available.
    
    THAT'S the leap of faith.  Being honest about awareness that there are
    things you don't know, and aren't familiar with, that will be of
    remarkable value for you.
    
    -Jody
    

    ....sometimes folks gotta say how great it was to part with the $500
    to justify parting with it. Some of us non believers also would refrain
    from dropping $5,000 on the table of The Trans Indental Medition Group
    to find out if we could fly thru heavy meditation.:) Or heavy drugs.:)

    For only $4.95 I will send you postpaid a complete, proven, accredited
    course in making money in the self-help market.  Money orders or bank
    checks, please.  Do not send cash.  No stamps accepted.
    
    -dick

 re: Chris

 Sounds interesting, anyway. I'm glad you feel you got your money's worth.

 It's kind of too bad that the confidentiality issue is so encompassing that
we cannot speak about this in anything more than the broadest of terms. I
think that if we could discuss this in more detail that the value in this
workshop would be easier to recognize. As it is, we have the equivalent of
a commercial where everybody tells the product is great but nobody will tell you
what the product is. :->

 We have several noters who are expressing open disdain for the secrecy,
noting quite correctly that such secrecy can be used to fleece unwary consumers.
I prefer a less confrontational approach. I have an open mind, but I'd sure
need some convincing (if I had $500 to spend in the first place.)

 The Doctah

    I think that if the organizers of the course are confident that the
    weekend will be a life enriching experience well worth the cost, then
    they wouldn't mind if I took the course and paid the following week.
    "I'll galdly pay you Tuesday..."
    
    $500. Knowing that people spend this kind of money for a no details, no
    guaraantee, "trust me, I'm a fellow guy", "buddy, ya wanna get in touch
    with yer Karma" type weekend has been enlightening.

    Doesn't 500.00 for a weekend sound kinda expensive for an institute
    to charge, as they offer all of this concern and direction for the
    benefit of men?
    
    C'mon, 500.00 could pay for a 3-4 day Bahama cruise!  I'd be interested
    to see their financial statement, if indeed they do have one.  Do they
    donate any of the proceeds to a fund to help pay for the cost of men
    who cannot afford the full cost?  Is there a sliding fee scale?
    
    Some of the best groups I have been to were either for free, or for a
    donation.  The 500.00 does limit the membership to a certain sect,
    "for lack of a better phrase", of men.
    
    Myself, I'd love the experience, but between child support, marital 
    bills, {which the court dropped ALL on me}, and living expenses,  I
    could never muster this kind of money.  It is too bad that money is
    once again excluding folks that could benefit.  There is much to be
    shared between all men.  It doesn't have to happen in a paid
    subscribers group.....
    
    Bruce 

    .44 Yep. If I could get my hands on $500! What bills I could pay and
    a cruze I could do. I could get an inriched week. Or even $500 for
    a week in a rental cabin in the woods. Gee, might come home with $400
    in my pocket. :) 
    
    I can understand the points made by those who did spend the $500 and
    had their weekend inriched. But for self, who live the mono-play life,
    paying $500 for a touchy-feely weekend. I have done it for less and
    found myself faced with other rewarding experiences for less that
    a tank of gas, a pair of hiking boots, and pack. I all you have to 
    do is step outside of your cube, leave all the pagers, watchs, phone
    calls behind, and hit trail! Rain in the face, or fall leaves crunching
    under my feet. Just step outside man.:) Great place to be when your
    tired of the high tech stuff.:)

  Thanks for all the responses... I guess your right there is now way that
it could make sense over this medium. The men I have sent to the men's 
weekend have gone because they trusted me and trusted that there was something
there for them and ALSO because they KNEW me and saw the changes in my life.

   sooo I guess your right it does kinda sound like a commercial at this point.

	It's all about relationship, and we have a hard enough time at that
in person never mind over the tube....

  Chris

    Sorry Chris, perhaps sometime, if there was an informal meeting of us
    mindless sorts. There could be a convincing pitch. I can understand
    where this could be a big benifit. Opening the mind to change, to
    yourself, and to the world around us is always going to bennifit
    us. The day in a life never stand still to someone who accepts change
    and the challenge. Reguardless of what ever that challange maybe.
    Now I am sounding like a canidate for office.:) Guess I better sit down
    or someones going to write me in!:)

    I don't think the money or the secrecy is the issue.
    
    I have difficulty believing that any of the noters in this string would 
    attend one of these workshops even if it were free.
    
    These do fall in the category of "touchy-feely" workshops that many in
    this file detest quite openly.                 
    

    I may be wrong, but isn't this the weekend thing
    where you are supposed to be able to hug and kiss
    and totally embrace other men naked?  And then be told
    why it's ok to do these things and NOT feel em-bare-assed
    about it?  Well, I'll just stick to doing these things 
    with the willing opposite sex and feel the same way.
    
    Tony

    You have to pay $500 to do that?  I know where they could do it for
    free...

    I have not done "the weekend", but am good friends with several men who
    have, notably Chris Chandler.  I can tell you from an outsider's
    experience that they have all been changed by it, mostly for the
    better.  My impression about one of the reasons to charge $500 is that
    is kind of gets your attention, which apparently has succeeded in this
    case.
    
    As for myself, I choose my own path.  However, I also enjoy getting
    lost, and the adventures I have along the way.  But if a more direct
    route is on interest to any of you, I encourage you to contact the
    Sterling representatives.  I don't think you would be disappointed with
    the experience.
    
    For the record though, if Justin Sterling were as confident with his
    program as he expouses, he would offer a money-back guarantee.
    
    
    							Fred

    Back a few there were some comments about trust. My take on trust
    is that it is not blind. It is based on history, either direct
    experience or experience based on related things. There are a number 
    of men I know who I trust quite a bit. Some of them note here and
    I suspect they know who they are. I might consider one of these week
    ends if one of those people recommended it and I had the money. But
    $500 takes quite a bit of trust as it's a good deal more money then
    I can afford to lose. 

    Then there is also history that leads to lack of trust. My experience
    with "I can't tell you about it or I'll spoil it for you" is that it
    can't be spoiled because it's worthless. Your experience may vary of 
    course. But for me to take a course like this would be like trusting
    a Democratic presidential candidate who said "No new taxes." 

    			Alfred

>    But for me to take a course like this would be like trusting
>    a Democratic presidential candidate who said "No new taxes." 
    
    As opposed to...?
    
    Ray

    >Back a few there were some comments about trust. My take on trust
    >is that it is not blind. It is based on history, either direct
    >experience or experience based on related things. There are a number 
    >of men I know who I trust quite a bit. Some of them note here and
    >I suspect they know who they are. I might consider one of these week
    >ends if one of those people recommended it and I had the money. But
    >$500 takes quite a bit of trust as it's a good deal more money then
    >I can afford to lose. 
    
    I agree -- trust is not blind, and if anyone said they would be willing
    to attend a weekend based on what's been stated in this string, I'd
    examine that man's motives very closely, because the basis for $500
    worth of trust simply hasn't been established.
    
    					andrew

    I definitely wouldn't spend $500. on a similar type of women's weekend,
    if I knew no more about it than what I know of this men's weekend. 
    When I think of other things I could do with $500. (if I had it as
    disposable income), I know I wouldn't.  For example:
    $500. can buy a gorgeous antique ring (and it's proven that antique
                                           jewelry can change my life!) :-)
    For $500. I could, also, visit my friend in California, or spend a
    week on Cape Cod next summer.  
    
    I've never been able to relate to the fact that one weekend or one
    seminar can totally change a person's life.  It's fine for people who
    enjoy that sort of thing, but it just doesn't work for everybody.
    
    Lorna
    

>>    But for me to take a course like this would be like trusting
>>    a Democratic presidential candidate who said "No new taxes." 
>    
>    As opposed to...?
    
    Trusting the Republican would, in the current situation at least, be
    unwise. Trusting the Democrat would be even sillier.
    
    		Alfred

    Now! Now! Now!~ Lets leave Ted Kennedy out of this. He hasn't dropped
    his pants on anyone lately. Nor has he sat on a senate hearing about
    the moral issues of morality.:)
    
    It is also true about the QE2? It wasn't a rock it hit, it was Teddy's
    car?;)

>                     -< used Democrat for extra emphasis >-
    
    That's odd.  I thought most people associated the catchphrase "No new
    taxes" with a Republican.
    
    Ray

>>                     -< used Democrat for extra emphasis >-
>    
>    That's odd.  I thought most people associated the catchphrase "No new
>    taxes" with a Republican.
    
    They do. No one in their right mind would believe those words from
    a Democrat. However many Republicans are pretty believeable when they
    say it. Especially in New Hampshire.
    
    		Alfred

    Some of us don't live in New Hampshire, Alfred.  For that matter, since
    you mentioned "presidential candidates" in particular, which
    presidential candidates are these trustworthy Republican
    sons-or-daughters of the Granite State?
    
    Ray

    Or, to paraphrase another Republican, "... but you can't fool all the
    people all of the time.  Except in New Hampshire."
    
    Ray

    AAAH! New Hampster bashing are wee!:) Wella how about the one about
    Lobe calling yha the Commiewelth of Mass? Or the Peoples Republic of
    Mass?;) And we all thought the war between the states had died some
    time ago.:-)

>    And we all thought the war between the states had died some
>    time ago.:-)
    
    Let's try to stay civil, shall we?  (: >,)
    
    Ray (from California -- The Fiscal Responsibility State)

    re .62, don't worry, George.  Massachusetts is definitely a
    Capitalistic state.  That's why we have so many homeless.
    
    Lorna
    

    And in New Hampshire, the Live Free or Die State, I will fight
    for your right to starve to death, ayup.
    
    ed

Reminds me of an old The Far Side cartoon:

Picture is of a fenced-in pasture. All the cows are on their 
backs with their feet sticking up in the air. The caption 
says: Live Free or Die.

Mike

My personal feeling about these weekends and seminars is that, while they 
help some people, they're primarily money-making business operations. 

If I were to start a business like this, there are certain features that 
I would build into the course/seminar/weekend/workshop to help increase 
the likelihood that the venture would be profitable. Here are a few just 
off the top of my head. Besides #1, do any of these other features apply 
to Sterling?

1. Secrecy. 
2. Have lots of "levels." (beginning, intermediate, advanced, special 
   training to become a teacher yourself, advanced courses for teachers, etc.)
3. People will be on an emotional high after their intensive sessions, and 
   most will be thinking about taking the next level. This feeling can 
   disappear fast. Maintain it by telling participants that they 
   are expected to keep in close touch with each other. Facilitate this by 
   scheduling "follow-up" meetings. 
4. Spend whatever you have to on letters, flyers, phone bills, etc., 
   to remind people about the post-seminar meetings. *One* person deciding 
   to take the next course will pay for these things.
5. Make participants demonstrate (to themselves) that they can indeed 
   discover and dissolve the artificial barriers they erect in their lives. 
   Give them a task they may think they can't accomplish. The task is to get 
   5 or so friends or acquaintances to come to an evening introductory session.
6. Provide some discount on courses at the next level if people demonstrate 
   commitment. People demonstrate commitment by getting others to attend 
   introductory sessions. 
7. Show some interest in, but don't dwell on, their *personal* goals and how 
   they're doing in achieving these goals. Concentrate on *our* goal: 
   getting them to take the next course or bringing new people to meetings. 
   We'll be happy if they bring one person. If they can't overcome the 
   artificial barriers that are preventing them from getting even one person 
   to come, they obviously need the next level of training.

    If you wanted to make money, your plan would probably work.
    
    Just to be very clear about the Sterling Weekend:
    
    1. The details are confidential.
    2. NO levels -- it's a one-shot deal.
    3. Since there are no levels, there's nothing new to sign up for.
       You can join a Men's Team, but that doesn't generate income.
    4. See 2.
    5. Sounds like a pyramid scheme -- that's not the way it works.
    6. No discounts, no followups.
    7. Sterling is about breaking through personal barriers.
    
    What you described has been used by other organizations; it is not
    the way Sterling operates.  I repeat, there are no follow-up courses
    to attend; therefore what you describe simply does not apply.
    
    					andrew

    
    Nobody's forcing anyone to do any training here.
    
    I've taken 4 courses over the past year which I may or may not
    recommend to various people I know. Some of them allowed me to take
    notes, some did not.  What's available for people is to discuss with me
    what *I* got from the course, and invite me to share with them what I
    feel *they* might get from the course.  If they don't wish to do it, no
    problem.  If they don't feel it would be worth it for them, no problem. 
    If they think I was a fool to take the course, or feel it had no impact
    on me, that's their business - and depending on whether they're a
    friend or not they may or may not impart this to me.
    
    There is a place for each course ever developed.  There is a value for
    some people in such courses.  Sometimes it's worth as much as or more
    than the fee charged, sometimes it's not.
    
    Life is a crap shoot.  We decide based on the information given, and
    live with the results.  
    
    The way to choose what courses, seminars, information, opportunities
    you need is to discuss them with friends, peers, loved ones, and people
    who have taken those courses or seminars, have that information, or
    have considered or availed themselves of those opportunities.
    
    If someone told me bungy jumping was dangerous and expensive, it
    probably wouldn't appeal to me either.  If someone told me it was a
    life-changing, transcendental experience and I saw that they were
    transformed by the experience to be more themselves, or happier, or
    more able to seek what they needed to live a fulfilling life - I'd ask
    them about it.
    
    -Jody
    

    Great reply Jody. Now if there can be somethings told by the base noter
    to convince us that it is a worth while program. :)
    
    Back to those of yha diggin on New Hampshiiiire. :) Remember, there
    is, like many tribal nations, a yen to concor! Take other nation
    states and tribes. As we run fastly out of land around these parts
    of Nashua we start looking at others as viable means to an end!
    Hence, there is a bunch of us, and Nashua Internation Airport, with
    B-24/25's, Mustangs, p-31's, etc. And the plot?:) Bha-Ha! Is
    that the weakest point of any city/nation state, is the city hall.
    Ever go in and find yourself standing in line for hours? Many
    mucipalities still use paper and pencil. Not computers, Hence!
    Some sunday morning, there might be a suprise attack on your city
    hall. And seeing that this is where much of the city tax's are
    paid. And no one could figure out who owed who what? Well what
    a logical way to gain new and other fertil lands to be claimed
    as satilites to Nashua New Hampshire! :) 
    
    So we bomb city hall with our airforce, on sunday morning as so
    not to hurt inocent people, women, and children. And wait
    till the city bellies up financially. Then go in and buy up
    entire citys in forclosures!:) (play the 'Ride of the Vahala')(sp)
    
    Message? Yup! Don't tread (bullyrag) on me!:) Or you will be forced
    to talk like us heeerra!:) Who says the war between the states is
    over with!:) 
    
    The motto? Don't spell correctly, that way the enimy cannot understond
    you.:)
    

    .... and yes, I eat large quanities of beaf, and have massive amounts
    of male testorone!:) So, GRRRR!:)

    I know where men can get this "awareness" training at absolutely no
    cost....and it takes place on a secluded island just off the South
    Carolina coast ... really a nice resort.

    All meals are provided ... as is lodging ... the men all shower
    together (you know, for the touchie-feelie effect) ... there's lots of
    "togetherness" exercises ... 

    Send mail and I'll give you the details on how to get into this great
    organization based at Parris Island, South Carolina.

    Actually, Jerry, I think they actually *pay* the men who participate
    in the group you're describing!
    
    Unfortunately, not every man is cut out to be a Marine.
    
    					andrew

    Well, times have changed, Jerry; I read in the paper the other day
    as to how the Marine training is going co-ed.
    
    				Steve

    re .72, I think you should include a warning...MAY BE DANGEROUS TO YOUR
    HEALTH!
    
    Lorna
    

    No problem Mike.  This organization does not discriminate with respect
    to ugliness.  You get a free haircut upon entering so don't worry 'bout
    the color of your hair for there will be but little left after you
    leave the locally owned styling salon.

    The men are men and not "myn" so I don't know about the "compassionate"
    stuff - there's some touchie-feelie (emphasis on the "touchie").  They
    are most assuredly "helpful" though - if you do something wrong or do
    something in such a manner as to upset your team leader - he will tell
    you so and in very short order.  You will have absolutely no problems
    in understanding what your team leader says.  They use clear concise
    language which is often punctuated with mild expletives (you know, for
    the humor effect).

    Oh, and, if you're a "myn" you may want to consider some other place. 
    The organization I speak of has yet to take a "Valuing Differences"
    course.

    Bubba

>    Oh, and, if you're a "myn" you may want to consider some other place. 
>    The organization I speak of has yet to take a "Valuing Differences"
>    course.

    Aren't they going to be part of the Navy "stand down" day that will be
    teaching the no-no of sexual harassment? There were Marine aviators at
    the Tailhook affair were there not?


    			Alfred

I know several folks who did Sterling weekends years ago; all three 
(two men and one woman) agreed that the experience changed their lives
for the better, but beyond that, kept their confidentiality agreements.
The fact that EVERYONE I know who has ever done one of these weekends
AGREES to keep the secrets is the most striking aspect as I try to
evaluate what I do and don't know of Sterling.

DougO

    Re: Sterling Weekends...
    
    Not to be disrespectful, but what would happen if someone *WERE* to
    spill the beans?
    
    Personally, I'm not sure I could do such a weekend under these
    conditions, even if it were free.  I'm the type who likes to bubble
    about positive experiences to all my friends... and if this is as
    life-changing as everyone claims it is, I'm not sure you could shut
    me up 8-) 8-) 8-)
    
    Re: Parris Island:
    
    Dunno if I could take it... I tend to cry when big mean boys yell
    at me [ only 1/2 a 8-) on this one... ].  And I like to talk about
    things, and come to consensus.....
    
    
    	"EYE CANNNN'T HEEEEERE YEWWWWWW!!!!!!!!"
    
    	"Well, Sergeant, maybe you could listen more closely....
    	 and really *hear* what I had to sa......" *whap* "WAAAAAAHHHHH!!"
    
    --jim
    

.80> Not to be disrespectful, but what would happen if someone *WERE* to
.80> spill the beans?

Good question.  I would be interested in hearing a response.  Knowing
little or nothing about what's going to happen (and perhaps 'how' it's
going to happen) ... as a consumer I would be somewhat reluctant to
put down that kind of money in what appears to be a blind contract.

What would prompt a person to attend something like this if everything
is kept "secret" ... and .. as my learned associate in .80 asks ... what
are the consequences of breaching this bond of silence?
    
.80> Re: Parris Island:
.80> Dunno if I could take it... I tend to cry when big mean boys yell
.80> at me.....

My senior DI at PI was far from "big".  He was less than 5'9" (my height)
and weighed in at something in the neighborhood of 'bout 155#.  From all
external *appearances* he was wimp-of-magnitude-1.  Elements of Platoon 238,
"K" Company, 2nd Battalion, learned (in *VERY* short order) that the most
surprising things can come in small nondescript packages.

Bubba

 RE:  spilling the beans...?

   I thought I mentioned before... but there certainly is no consequence for
"spilling the beans" or talking about the particulars of what happens during
a Sterling Men's Weekend. except a loss of personal honor and knowing that
you will be taking the value of doing this weekend away from the person you
are talking too.

   Again, the reason we don't mention the specifics/details of the weekend is
because just about everyone who has done it and gotten something out of it
hopes that others will do it too. And talking about the details/specifics
will seriously hinder that persons ability to get anything out of the weekend.
The weekend is a journey, for two days the men  are lead or guided
along a certain path. If they knew what the path was they would not be able
to get the same benefit out of it.

   Kinda feels like we've beaten this one to death... Anyway, I still get
a HUGE kick out of seeing men I know complete the weekend. I really think
this stuff makes a difference for Men, their families and communities.


  Thanks for listening,

         Chris

		P.S. Buy the way, a bunch of us (Men who've done the weekend)
		     are going to do a large scale (80-100 people)
		     community service project in Worcester on Nov 21st. Watch
		     the local papers for more info.

    If they knew what the path was they wouldn't have to pay to be shown
    it, would they?

>>    If they knew what the path was they wouldn't have to pay to be shown
>>    it, would they?
>
>    Bingo!

Simpson, you sound the type who'd stand outside a movie theatre giving 
away the ending.  Or who'd accept that kind of information as a great way 
to avoid wasting your time in line or your money actually seeing the show.  
So much for the lost experience, you know how it all comes out, right?
Maybe people going to the cinema aren't seeking information, but something
else; entertainment?  Maybe the Sterling weekends are willingly paid for
by people who can acknowledge that going through with it may have more
value than just being told what other people have experienced.  Life-changing 
experiences don't all come with a price tag, but it seems that among folks 
who have paid this one, there is unanimous consent that it was worth the 
price.  I won't be spending my money on it all the same; but I have no 
need to disparage or discourage those who have or who may be considering 
it.  The enigma remains.

DougO

    Okay, Mike here's a clue:  for me, the Sterling Men's Weekend
    was a profound, life-changing experience.  It was one of the
    most important things I've done in my life.  It helped me come
    to terms with my own Manhood, and helped be to recognize and
    respect my part in realationships with men, and women.
    
    This is a common reaction, but I have no idea what the Weekend might
    be for you -- it would be up to you to experience it for yourself.  I
    can only tell you about how the experience affected me.  Anything
    like this will be an intensely personal experience, and yours will be
    different than mine, because you are different than me.  Any
    extrapolation of my experience onto you could be misleading.

    re .87, but you can't tell exactly what it is that you did there, or
    saw, or heard, that changed your life so much.  It would help others to
    decide whether the experience would be life-changing for them, if they
    could know exactly what it was that changed your life.
    
    Lorna
    

    Lorna:
    
    I recently went on a weekend retreat with a group of men and women. 
    You know what I did for the majority of the weekend?  Sat quietly,
    often alone, sometimes with other men and women.
    
    Occasionally, we all gathered together and talked, or listened
    to one specific person speak.  This weekend was deeply moving
    for me, and advanced my spiritual growth.  But would you be
    able to get that, based on what I *did* during the weekend?
    I doubt it.
    
    It's the same thing with the Sterling Men's Weekend -- if I told you
    what I did, without the context of the experience, I doubt that I'd
    be able to convey to you, or anyone else, what it was about the
    experience that was so life-changing for me.  What happened goes
    beyond what I did, said, heard, saw, just as a retreat is much more
    than sitting quietly alone.
    					andrew

    re .89, well, I would want to know if I was going to be expected to do
    some particular thing that I might find particularly unpleasant, such
    as taking off my clothes, hugging or touching strangers, getting up in
    front of a bunch of people and spilling my guts, etc.  There are some
    activities that I find so repugnant that I know that I would get
    nothing out of any situation that involved them.
    
    Lorna
    

    >Actually, your description of what you did during your retreat is a
    >whole hack of a lot more than what y'all have told as regards the
    >Sterling weekend.  While you didn't get into much detail, you did give
    >an indication as to how you spent your time.  A description on a
    >similar level for the Sterling weekend wouldn't seem to be spilling the
    >beans much, and yet one could get an inkling as to what one does to
    >reach that state of manly bliss you speak so warmly of. 
    
    Not really -- what I *did* and what I experienced in both instances
    were fairly widely separated -- also, while just about everybody 
    did about the same things at the retreat, their experiences varied
    widely.  I can tell you about my experiences; I simply can't tell
    you what I did.
                                               
    >While I can understand that you don't want to break your word that you
    >gave to these people, I cannot understand why it is they require that
    >you promise to not even say that little bit.
    
    You'd have to ask them.

    re .85
    
    Give away the ending?  No (Mike Smith summed it up quite nicely).
    
    But you remind me of a famous play in London called 'The Mouse Trap',
    based on the book by Agatha Christie.  This play has been running
    continuously for over forty years, and at the end of each performance
    they ask the audience not to reveal who dunnit.  To this day my father,
    who saw it in the early fifties, won't tell me.
    
    Why does this work?  Well, if I choose to see the play myself I have a
    fairly god idea of what I'm getting.  I understand theatre, I
    understand detective stories, if I'm truly desperate I can read the
    book first.  The only thing I'm missing is the culprit's name, and
    after all half the fun is trying to work that out as you go along.
    
    This contrasts sharply with the Sterling weekend.  If someone told me
    to see 'The Mouse Trap' when I had no understanding of theatre or
    detective stories - but it was a 'great theatrical experience' - then
    why should I bother?  I have no idea of what they mean.
    
    Similarly, saying that the Sterling weekend is a 'life changing
    experience' says nothing, and given the reputation of so many of these
    type of events I whole heartedly endorse Lorna's notion that I, for
    one, have no intention of paying good money to then be expected to do
    things I find personally repugnant (her list pretty much covers mine). 
    Banging on drums, walking naked through the woods and hugging strangers
    is not my idea of a good time.  Of course, it might not involve any of
    those things - but I don't know because the participants won't tell.

    No, Mike, instead lots of synsytyve nyked myn will hug you until your
    inhibitions go away...

    Lorna, Mike, and Dave:
    
    Sounds like you're asking for assurances, and guarantees.
    They don't give 'em.  "Ya pays yer money, and ya takes
    yer chances." 
    
    If that's not acceptable, then you probably shouldn't do the
    Weekend.  As a matter of fact, if the comments you stated
    earlier were your conditions, they probably wouldn't accept
    your money, and wouldn't allow you to do the Weekend.  The
    Weekend isn't for everybody, and based on your comments, it
    sounds like it wouldn't be for you.

    To VMSMKT::KENAH
    
    Is it important to "the weekend" that the money be your own or the
    Corporation's that you work for, i.e., do Corporations sponsor any
    of the individuals?  If yes, would Digital sponsor me?  If no, that
    says (in the eyes of the Corporation) that this program may be a sham
    and not worth it for employees.  If Digital were to pay my way, I would
    certainly consider going!  Would this statement make me a viable
    candidate for "the weekend"?
    
    Don
    

    re .96
    
    We are not asking for guarantees.  We are asking for enough information
    to make a reasoned, informed decision.
    
    Your persistent refusal to supply this, quite frankly, inclines me to
    think you and your weekend a fraud.

    It's not my Weekend.  If you believe it is a fraud, then I
    will not try to dissuade you.  I have tried to answer the
    questions asked of me while at the same time honoring the
    promise I made.  It's important -- to me -- that I honor
    the promise.  I fully realize that it puts me, and the
    Weekend, in an awkward position, but I still choose to honor
    the promise.
    
    

    RE: a few back -- 
    
    At one time, Digital did cover the expense of this Weekend; 
    they did not cover my expenses.  I do not know if they still
    do this.  
    					andrew

    Yeah, Mike, I have this picture of you pelting towards your truck with
    hordes of nyked myn trailing behind, urging you to return and discover
    your mynhood...

    I know this may appear hostile, but here's an observation:
    
    One thing that strikes me about this discussion, at least if Mr. 
    Kenah is to be believed, is the *uniformity* of response to the
    Sterling Weekend's experiences.  It seems as though *everyone* 
    has a significant, life-changing experience; *everyone* speaks
    positively of the Weekend; *everyone* holds the details in the
    *strictest* confidence...........
    
    this uniformity is so uncanny as to appear almost inhuman.
    
    Is this the *Sterling* men's weekend, or the *Stepford* men's
    weekend? [only 1/2 a 8-) on that one...]
    
    Like I said... I don't intend to be hostile, and I don't think
    all of the other skeptical noters in this string do either.  However,
    nature abhors a vacuum.  When presented with an information vacuum,
    people are *bound* to fill in the details themselves!
    
    As for the idea that describing the details of the Weekend would
    spoil the experience for those that haven't done it yet... unless 
    there is something *extremely* unusual about the weekend,  I have 
    a hard time believing that this is really true.  There are many 
    other areas of human endeavor (e.g. travel) about which much has 
    been written and yet people *still* seek out the actual experience.
    The descriptions give a general idea of what to expect... but you
    and I both know that there's *nothing* to compare with actually
    standing on the rim of the Grand Canyon 8-) 8-) 8-).
    
    I daresay that a good writer *could* describe the Weekend in sufficient
    detail as to generate much interest in it, while still preserving
    the confidentiality of the participants...
    
    [then again, maybe the weekend *works* because the mystery and
    confidentiality pledge *select* for certain personality types?]
    
    --jim
    

    >One thing that strikes me about this discussion, at least if Mr. 
    >Kenah is to be believed, is the *uniformity* of response to the
    >Sterling Weekend's experiences.  It seems as though *everyone* 
    >has a significant, life-changing experience; *everyone* speaks
    >positively of the Weekend; *everyone* holds the details in the
    >*strictest* confidence...........

    Nope, only me -- if you re-read my replies, you will note that 
    I spoke only of MY experience, and MY decision to hold the 
    details in confidence.  I can't speak for others, or even for the
    Sterling organization, only for myself.

    As for why the Sterling folks insist on confidentiality.  Well,
    I've given my personal interpretation of why it's important
    for me.  If you want their reasons, you'll have to ask them.

    I'll post their address and phone number as soon as I find it.

    					andrew

    re .104
    
    And then you drive off, but they chase you and clamber onto the tray. 
    Even when you drive over them their hands won't let go, and disembodied
    heads wail into the distance, "try it, you'll like it..."  But some get
    ahead of you, via a shortcut, and destroy the only bridge back to
    civilisation, and your fuel guage is getting lower and lower...
    
    Hey, this could be a great horror flick:
    
    "Night of the Synsytyve Dead!" (Part 1, of course).

Does anybody besides me find it ominous that Mr. Kenah capitalizes Men and
Weekend?

    Hey man, the thing is called the Sterling Men's Weekend --
    when I talk about men, it's men.  When I talk about weekends,
    it's weekend -- when I talk about this particular event, I
    capitalize, 'cause that's the way it is in the name.

    Since the Sterling people are so convinced of the life-enhancing value
    of their weekends, does this mean that they offer a full and
    unconditional money-back guarantee if the participant decides that they
    didn't like the weekend?
    
    Considering the fact that they won't describe about what the weekend
    involves, and considering that they are asking for $500, that seems
    like the minimally ethical thing to do.
    
    -- Mike

    
    several of the weekend courses I've taken ($150-$700 per) have offered
    on the first morning to return your money if you want to leave at that
    point.  No bullshit.  No niggling.
    
    Sometimes there's a nonrefundable deposit, sometimes there's not.
    
    I have met 2 people out of the approximately 300 people total in the
    Landmark Education and Lifespring courses I've been two who weren't
    completely satisfied.  When it came to several-month seminar series',
    some people decided to stop attending the first month or two.
    
    These seminars and weekends *are designed to work* but only
    IF YOU DO THEM.
    
    Fer chrissakes - if you don't want to do it, DON'T, but there is some
    really undeserved chiding and accusation going on here which makes me
    uncomfortable.....
    
    -Jody

    I think the problem is that we don't have enough information to know
    whether we would want to do it or not.  And the refusal to grant the
    potential participant that information, when they are to fork over a
    lot of money, is automatically likely to engender suspicion.  As was
    pointed out in an earlier reply:

    >I daresay that a good writer *could* describe the Weekend in sufficient
    >detail as to generate much interest in it, while still preserving
    >the confidentiality of the participants...
    
    Yes--just as a good film critic can describe a movie in such as way as
    to indicate whether one might be interested in seeing it, without
    giving away its ending.  If a film critic says "This is a great movie,
    see it!", but then doesn't tell me *why*--if, in fact, the entire
    review is just that one sentence--then am I to simply take that
    critic's word for it?  Since everyone has different tastes in movies, I
    expect a review to explain the reasoning behind its conclusions, so
    that I can evaluate those reasons for myself.

    I amazed that anyone seriously expects people to react to this $500
    confidential weekend with at lease a certain does of skepticism.  I am
    as much into life enriching experiences as anyone, and if I knew more
    about this weekend I might very well embrace it myself.  But without
    information, I have nothing to go on.  I take the word of those who say
    they got a lot of out it, and that it was worth it for them.  But I
    need information before I can make an intelligent judgment on whether
    it is worth the $500 for *me*.  And only I have the right to make the
    judgment of what will work for me.  I expect others to respect my right
    to make informed judgments, and simply asking me to "trust" what they
    think is best for me is asking way too much.  I refuse to relinquish
    that kind of autonomy over my life.  But perhaps that is part of the
    point of the seminar--maybe it wants you to relinquish that kind of
    control, or only wants people who are willing to do so.  Whatever.  If
    so, then it clearly isn't for me.

    -- Mike

    
    I think the point is, if you were to talk to someone PERSONALLY and get
    what changed about their life, that's where you'd be informed.  Nobody
    in their right mind would share intimate things about how the weekend
    affected their lives in a notesfile topic which has the discussion
    going on that this one has.
    
    If you wanted to see my notes on Landmark Education's Advanced Course
    (four days and an evening session), I could e-mail you an 1800 line
    textfile or a 380 bloc postscript file, but that would just be words. 
    If you were to ask me how my life changed due to taking this course,
    you might begin to get a feel for what kind of value it could have for
    you.
    
    The reason someone might want to take it is if they saw VALUE in it.
    Nobody's seeing value here.  Nobody signs up.  No big deal.
    That's not what motivates people to register for courses like this. 
    People register for courses like this because someone expressed either
    a transformation that occured for them, or expressed that they felt
    there would be remarkable value in the course.
    
    Some of the courses have had so much value for me, I've offered to pay
    for close loved ones to take them.  Some may, some may not.  But the
    value was powerful enough for me that I'd welcome them taking the
    course, and would enable them to do so.
    
    -Jody
    

re .108:

I misspoke.  Mr. Kenah does not capitalize Men.  He capitalizes Manhood, as
in reply 87:

>                                                 It helped me come
>    to terms with my own Manhood 

Mr. Chandler capitalizes Men in reply 82:

>                                                          I really think
>his stuff makes a difference for Men, their families and communities.

>		P.S. Buy the way, a bunch of us (Men who've done the weekend)

    My own Manhood, I'll capitalize - after all it deserves it!  %^}
    
    You'll have to decide whether or not yours deserves a capital.
    
    					andrew

    I agree that some of the snide comments here towards personal growth or
    development by men (culminating in the use of the "y" to substitute for
    vowels, for example) are unfortunate.  But the impression I have gotten
    is that it would violate the confidentiality agreement to discuss what
    happened at the weekend even in a private discussion with an
    individual, not just by sharing it in a public forum.

    Continuing the film analogy, someone could tell me in great detail that
    a film affected them deeply.  But they didn't mention to me that it was
    made in Belgium and uses subtitles, or that it is a silent film, or has
    some other characteristic that may or may not be very important to my
    own ability to enjoy the film.  No matter how much the film may have
    affected the other person deeply, it may not affect me in the same way
    because of my own personal tastes and biases.  That kind of information
    would be important for me to know so that I can make the evaluation. 
    And I have never spent $500 for a movie.

    My problem is not with the concept of a weekend retreat, but with the
    way this particular retreat is being sold.  The idea that one should be
    expected to fork over a lot of money for something without being able
    to make an evaluation of whether it will be right for one or not, is
    simply straining all credibility for me.  No matter how valuable the
    retreat might be for many participants it is simply a matter of ethics
    and respect that the people who operate this retreat give me the
    opportunity to make an informed judgment on whether or not I should
    spend that kind of money.  Not to do so is, as far as I am concerned,
    to insult my intelligence, and it has the word "sucker" written all
    over it.

    -- Mike

    It's not so much like a film as it is like a retreat -- even if
    I told you what I did, it wouldn't give you my experience, and
    even if I managed to convey my experience, there's no guarantee
    that your experience would remotely resemble mine.
    
    					andrew

    re .117, no, but if you told him exactly what you were expected to *do*
    it would give him an idea of whether he would enjoy it.  If someone
    told me exactly what they did on any given retreat, or seminar, or
    vacation, it might not help me realize how they felt about what they
    did, but it would give me a better idea how I would feel about doing
    what they did.  For example, one person might love playing softball,
    but I might hate it so much it would be hell on earth for me so I would
    like to know that I was expected to play softball, so that I could make
    up my own mind.  I totally agree with what Mike Valenza said in .116.
    
    Lorna
    

    I think that's precisely the point--your experience might not be the
    same as my experience.  Therefore, simply knowing that you got value
    out of it is not sufficient, just as knowing that Siskel and Ebert
    liked a movie isn't enough.  I need to know *why*.  In the case of your
    retreat, I need to understand your explanation of how you got a
    valuable experience out of it.  That way I can relate it to my own
    tendencies and preferences, and make a decision accordingly.  Sure,
    even with knowlege, I might spend the money and dtermine it is a waste,
    but at least that point it is a *calculated* risk, made on informed
    judgment, and not simply a blind guess.
    
    -- Mike

    >I need to know *why*.  In the case of your retreat, I need to
    >understand your explanation of how you got a valuable experience out of
    >it.
    
    I can tell you that, both for the Weekend, and the retreat -- I just
    can't tell you what I did.

    And because you can't tell me what you did, you deny me the opportunity
    to evaluate whether or not I would also get the value you got out of
    it.
    
    In essense, therefore, you *can't* tell me why you liked the retreat.
    You leave out the vital information that is helps me evaluate whether
    or not I think I will like it or not.
    
    -- Mike

    I liked the retreat because it helped me get in closer touch
    with s spirituality that's outside me, but also within me.
    
    I liked the weekend because it allowed me to face my fears of men in a
    safe environment -- it helped me recognize that I HAD a fear of men. 
    It allowed me to recognize the contribution my father made to my life,
    and showed me that I owed my father more than I had ever imagined.
    
    It gave me the opportunity to spend time with a large bunch of men,
    something I had never done before; and to have fun with those men;
    to feel deep feelings, to laugh, to cry, to express anger, to express
    joy.  It pointed out what my deepest fears about myself were, and
    helped me to face and conquer those fears.
    
    This isn't what I did; it's what I experienced.

    About getting one's money back -- I don't know the answer.
    
    If you begin the weekend, but leave before it's over, then
    no, you don't get a refund.  I seem to recall that I agreed
    to that before I began.

    Unfortunately for me, Mike, I was never in the military, so for
    me this was a new experience.  
    
    In my day, the military meant infantry duty in 'Nam.  

    One thing for sure ... this sure has my curiosity ah' spinnin',
    big time.

    Tell ya' what ... if these things are held in California I'll
    shell out the money and go for it ... when I return  I'll tell
    my fellow MENNOTEfriends all the details ....

    Anyone *object* to that?

    Now, how do I contact these people to see if these are held in
    California, Arizona, or New Mexico (all within driving distance)?

    Bubba

    Would you believe I did a Sterling women's workshop gawd - how many
    years ago?  Could it really be (lemme figure) about 10-11 years ago?!?
    Things like this make me feel so old. ;-)
    
    Amazing that this set of workshops still continues.  Kinda neat.
    
    I'll say this about my experience of the women's workshop/weekend
    /whatever it was called.  I got a lot out of it.  Not least of all a
    very close friend who was my wedding matron of honor and still like a
    sister to me.
    
    What's really relevant here is that affected how I relate to men.  
    I actually - can you believe it? ;-) ENJOY men!  I got a much clearer
    sense about where men are coming from, and I mean that in a profound
    way not as some dirty joke or putdown.  Vive la difference, and I don't
    mean just sexual jockeying, but our deep connections to each other,
    woman to woman, and woman to man.  It helped me feel much more relaxed
    in my dealings with all men.  I'm a feminist and proud of it, but I am
    also very comfortable, in fact thrilled, to be living, working, and
    loving in the world with men.
    
    I got that women and men, each in their own way, provide a very
    important point of view on life, and that they are deeply
    complimentary.
    
    Now I don't even remember if I was sworn to secrecy because it's been
    so long.  But even if I told you what went on (basically a bunch of
    women in a big room, talking, thinking, interacting), that wouldn't
    convey the essential experience.  It would sound kinda boring,
    actually.  And at times I felt "Get me outta here!"  But the end result
    was worthwhile.
    
    If it weren't for that weekend, I doubt I'd be here in MENNOTES with a
    big smile. :-)
    
    So what I can say about the Men's Weekend is that if you could increase
    your comfort in being in the world with women - as wives, lovers,
    sisters, mothers, co-workers, whatever - then it would probably be
    worthwhile for you.  And if you could increase your comfort in being a
    man in the world with other men - that's even better.
    
    Laura

.129> I got that women and men, each in their own way, provide a very
.129> important point of view on life, and that they are deeply
.129> complimentary.
    
      BINGO!

      Laura, your whole reply was excellent but the above stands out to me...

      The question is, based upon what you now know, must these "weekends"
      be separate "Men's" or "Women's" to gain this particular insight?
      It would seem that the answer has to be "YES" especially in view of
      the fact that in our Digital Microcosm we have both a Mennotes and
      Womennotes.  But, then again, these files are free to the employees...

      Don

    
    Depends on whose courses you do!  Sterling also has couples weekends,
    mother-daughter/father-son weekends, etc.  Other
    institutes/groups/education-places do groups of people (general people)
    or people with a particular background (recovering people...from a
    number of things).  
    
    -Jody
    

    Yes, I think that a sex-segregated weekend is the best way to gain such
    insights. (Your mileage may vary.)  BTW, the Sterling women's workshop I
    attended actually focussed more on women's relationships with women
    than on women's relationships with men.
    
    As for the women to men issues, I think they were easier to address
    with no men in the room.  The women to women issues were tougher in
    general and more painful.  
    
    I prefer same-sex groups for  personal growth workshops and for prayer. 
    It gets much more intense and I get more out of it.  Same-sex groups
    support me in dealing with my issues as a woman, which is about as
    close as I can get to my core identity most of the time.  I prefer 
    mixed-sex groups at work, in my family, for socializing, and in 
    community work.  Mixed-sex groups diffuse that intense women-only
    energy.  I find this more relaxing.  My close friends are female with
    few exceptions.
    
    To say I have these preferences is not to imply that I always or even
    often achieve them.  I try to be flexible. . .
    
    L

    re .129  Laura, so where ARE men coming from?  And I don't mean the
    question in a smart or double meaning way.  Please, tell ME and
    them maybe I will understand other men better.  
    
    I expect the answer is too complex to answer here, also its off the
    main topic of this string and...... I know, "go to a Sterling Weekend
    and I can find out too".
    
    What have I missed in my reply?
    
    Jeff
    

    RE:  .133
    
    Why not start a new base note on this topic?
    
    L
    

    Just a thought......
    
    	I sensed through this whole note that men were inquisitive to a
    point but didn't ask the right questions. When confronted with secrecy
    one wonders ... why? Sorta like the Masons or K of C. If you 'can't'
    tell anyone, is there something to hide? Since fraternal orders are
    mens' organizations and have something of similar interest to those
    men, it's not questioned. A 'weekend package' costing alot of money (to
    me anyway) and requiring me to pay and experience something I may not
    experience makes me think twice as to the value of what I'll
    experience. The second level of questions that need to be answered are
    designed to alleviate fear of something one may not want to do. If you
    are required to strip naked and allow other people to touch your body,
    that may not be an experience you want especially if those people are
    of the same sex but a different orientation. I don't believe it to be
    unreasonable to have these questions put to rest prior to handing over
    folding money.
    	I remember a very attractive and persuasive young woman said I
    needed an experience to reach her soul. She being a hippy type female
    in a long flowered skirt, a see-thru blouse, long blonde hair, I was
    ready to have an experience to reach her soul. She opened her bag and
    pulled out the fixin's.........I decided that she was not the
    experience I needed.
    
    Ken

    re .135
    
>    	I sensed through this whole note that men were inquisitive to a
>    point but didn't ask the right questions. When confronted with secrecy
    
    Wrong questions?  Gee, I thought we were asking things like, 'what is
    it about?' and 'how does it work?'.  When we were told we were not
    allowed to know these things little alarms bells of experience started
    shrieking 'Beware!  Possible con here!'

    	That should have been ...the right answers weren't supplied..
    
    I can't type and think at the same time..........sometimes...
    

The answers or questions weren't at fault, you guys were too intent on taking t
he piss out of a subject which was worth a lot more honest discussion. But you
didn't trust yourselves or anyone else.

I'm English working in Germany. I hadn't heard about these courses before but 
I've had a similar experience. As an English man we don't take our clothes off
and do this huggy huggy bit. We also don't tell other men that we love them. 

I'll take a chance and tell you of my experience.

I attended a session with a group of people. 6 men and interestingly 1 women 
We started the session by doing three things, writing a short text 
about a childhood experience, writing a short text about ourselves today and
drawing a picture. We then spent two days analysing and discussing our work
under the capable guidance of two psychologists. Essentially group therapy.

If I'd known what would have happened, I wouldn't have attended. Half way 
through the course I wanted to leave. It was gut wrenching, hard work. But I
stayed and participated. Because I stuck with it I faced up to something I've
been wrestling with for perhaps the last 25 years of my life. Because I've 
faced up to that I'm learning to deal with it, work it out and live my life
more freely. I'm more in tune with myself and other people, both women and men.
You could say I'm learning to steer my life on a different path. The course
helped me see that a different path was there and then helped me find it.

"Give me a boy between the age of 1 to 7 and I'll show you the man" - who said
that ? It's true. Those formative years pretty much dictate what kind of man
you'll be. Your hang-ups, your emotional state, .... and the kind of 
relationships you'll have with your Father, Mother, Sisters, Brother and other
men and women. As Bly says between 8 and 12 boys need to become men, girls women. Fathers and 
Fathers and Grandfathers help boys through that process.

We were also sworn to secrecy for probably three reasons. 1) Consciously 
affecting or manipulating the outcome. 2) It's personnel. You guys 
reinforced point 2. You're too dishonest. You'd  be suspicious and you'd 
take the piss. and 3) I didn't think I had a problem.

The sad thing for me about this note is that a couple of guys wanted to share
an experience which really helped them. The effort was completely wasted.
My suggestion - don't bother taking the course. You'd waste your money.