Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    I felt the way you did when I first went to campus, Larry- and my
    freshman year I mostly skipped the fraternity experience.  I found
    friends in many places; through dorm contacts, classmates and study
    companions, among fellow ROTC cadets, and via my part time job.  Many
    of those friends did become involved with fraternities, and they
    remained my friends.  Joining houses didn't turn them into jerks.
    So, having sat it out a year, and having made certain I could handle 
    my other time committments (Cornell was a real grind for me), I 
    checked out the Greek system as a sophomore, and ended up pledging 
    a fraternity that spring.
    
    At Cornell, there are some 50 fraternities and between 10-12 sororities 
    (I've heard some colonies were started since I left, so I'm not sure 
    of the exact numbers.)  The Greek system at Cornell is the second largest 
    in the nation.  Over 50 percent of undergraduate Cornellian males get 
    involved at some point in their college careers; there are many, many
    different kinds of houses, and most people can find a group with whom
    they can live comfortably if they want to.  It is unquestionably the 
    center for all organized campus social activities.  That isn't saying 
    that other activities don't exist; the intramurals, the ROTC programs, 
    the newspaper and other student publications, the music organizations, 
    and of course, college sports (hockey, crew, and lacrosse are big there) 
    all have large numbers of independents involved, and many folks get 
    along at Cornell quite fine without getting involved with fraternities.  
    And I'm sure that with the change in the drinking age, from 18 to 21, 
    since I left, that the social life is fundamentally changed; the
    undergraduates at my house put out an 8-page newsletter for the alumni
    three times a year, and the strong emphasis on curbing irresponsible
    drinking we see out here in the real world has had its effects back on
    campus, too.  Cornell's fraternities participate in a self-policing
    organization called the Inter-Fraternity Council, which also represents
    them to the University (most are independent of the University, ie, own
    their own frat houses.)  The IFC sanctions houses that make the rest
    look bad, barring them from having parties, etc.  I'm rambling, but
    I'm just trying to sketch the particulars of the situation as I
    remember them from Cornell.
    
    You asked how I remember my fraternity brothers.  I'm not in touch with
    all of them, of course; but undoubtedly my closest college friends are
    those guys, several of whom I still see.  There are 7 people here in
    the Bay Area I see irregularly, that I first met through the house;
    four were brothers, two were girlfriends who have since become married
    to two of those four brothers, and one, a former girlfriend of mine.
    In addition, I've vacationed for years with a brother who lives in Southern
    California, either in the wine country (twice), on a hiking trip (we
    did the Grand Canyon) or on ski trips(twice); and two others (one from
    Ohio, one also in So Cal) have also joined us on a ski trip.  I've 
    attended weddings in Newport Beach CA, Rochester NY, and on Long Island, 
    within the last three years (I graduated in 1983, so these are people 
    I'm keeping in touch with fairly well.)  Those of us here in the Bay
    Area get together to go to the beach or to a restaurant, or at parties, 
    every 9-12 months or so...I had dinner at Eric's place in Berkeley just 
    last week (and thats a 50-mile drive each way after work!)  I've spent
    three out of the past seven New Years' Eves at Harris' house in Irvine
    (southern Cal) and he and his wife were in my group's ski cabin at
    Tahoe for New Year's Eve 15 months ago.  So these people who I met
    through the house are my oldest friends, excepting a very few from 
    high school.  This, even though I spent four years in the Air Force
    in New Mexico, a thousand miles from any of them.
    
    Larry, it can work out lots of ways.  If someone approaches the Greek
    system with an open mind, willing to give it a chance, it can be a very
    rewarding experience.  I hope your friend enjoys himself.
    
    DougO
                          

    I attended Cornell in the early 70's and quickly decided against
    the Greek route.  I never regretted my choice, but I wouldn't
    attempt to say that my decision is correct for everyone. 
    
    			Steve

    
    I have to agree with the views expressed in the base note.
    I too pledged a fraternity in my freshman year for
    the same reasons mentioned.  It was a mistake.  I found that
    rather than expanding your horizons, it quickly narrowed them.
    You pledge a fraternity because there is a perceived match 
    between the house interest and your own.  So, you spend 4 years
    farming friendships with people who are already a lot like you.   
    Similarly, people characterize you according to the chapter you
    belong too (e.g. the "hockey" "football" "animal" house, etc)
    and this can be damaging to the quality of the college experience.
    I found that I spent a lot of time trying to undo the image of
    the "typical" frat guy.  The temptation is so great to belong, 
    especially as a freshman, but I would advise anyone against pledging.
                              
    TF
    
    

    I went to a college without fraternities.  I would have avoided frats
    anyway for the simple reason that they're single-sex. 
    
    I've kept less touch with college friends than anyone else I know, but
    I don't think that has anything to do with not fraternizing.
    
    Ray

    From a woman's perspective on dating "Greeks":
    
    
    I've been dating a former Delt for a year and I've never met anyone
    more immature for his age.  I love him dearly, but since I've met all
    his former "brothers", and numerous friends of his are also from
    different frats all over the country, I'd have to agree with the
    negativeness of fraternities.
    
    Not to generalize, but 5 years after graduating from college, there is
    still the "guy's are in it together" attitude, *very* sexist attitudes,
    extremely clannish, and the drinking!  Gosh, what can I say?  Never
    before have I met such a bunch of "Peter Pans" in all my life.  I would
    definitely discourage frats and sororites.  They hold themselves a
    level above all others (why?  I don't know, they're like every one else
    and it's not like they're intellectually superior) and even now, will
    not accept responsibility as adults.  I fear for my sweetheart and his
    friends at times, just the fact that their hard drinking and partying
    will destroy them.  I can only imagine what they were like at *school*!
    
    Most of them are very negative towards the girlfriends of their
    friends, or their wives.  It's like a *jealousy* thing.  I don't quite
    understand what it is, but this attitude is giving me major second
    thoughts about continuing with my present relationship.  And I *know*
    it's not just the man I love, because most of his former "brothers" are
    like this too ...
    
    Just my .02
    
    Tammi
    
    

>    I went to a college without fraternities.  I would have avoided frats
>    anyway for the simple reason that they're single-sex. 
    
    	Uh...not all of them are single-sex!  I know we had a co-ed
    frat at Tufts, and my brother is currently pledging a co-ed frat
    at UMass (Alphi Phi Omega - a service fraternity).  

    	I think what Doug(?) said is correct - it depends how you look
    at it going in.  I wasn't directly involved in the Greek system,
    but I spent a lot of time at one of the fraternities, because I
    had a lot of very close friends there.  The brothers were no means
    a totally closed group of people...the guys I knew had close friends 
    in various circles.

    	Sure, some of the fraternities have some not-so-great
    reputations...but it really depends what you're looking for from
    joining.  Yes, it can give you an instant group of friends, but
    you don't have to let it limit you to just those friends.

    	amy

    When I pledged Delta Tau Delta, I was looking for the type of experience
    and brotherhood Doug expressed in .1.  What I found, after the hype and
    hoopla of rush ended, was a disturbing combination of "Animal House" and
    "Lord of the Flies".  The ways my "brothers" expressed their brotherhood
    left me confused, angry, humiliated and, ulitimately, feeling very much
    alone.  The thought running through my mind during seemingly endless (and
    increasingly violent) lineups was, "How can you say this, do this, think
    this, and still call me your brother?"  Unfortunately, I see much of the
    behavior described in .6 among a number of my friends with strong
    fraternity ties, this years after graduation.  They're terrific people
    one-on-one but get more than three of them together and their emotional
    age drops by the hour (or by the beer).
    
    I agree there are fraternities which hold to an ideal higher than how
    many drinks you down in an hour or how many woman you can score in a
    night but they're the exception, are they not?  I'm sure if I pledged
    a fraternity like Doug's my view on all of this would be more positive.
    It's my hope my friend finds a similar community of friends to last him his
    life.  But I'm still left with a question.  Wouldn't stronger fraternal
    ties be formed by sponsoring an Outward Bound trip or starting a soup
    kitchen rather than requiring young men to engage in behavior they might
    otherwise consider immature, irresponsible or downright dangerous, all
    for the sake of brotherhood.  Isn't true brotherhood simplier than that?
    
    
    Larry

    Doug's note is .2.  Tomorrow I'll learn how to proofread.
    
    Larry

    I was in 2 fraternities while in college and dropped out of both.  One
    was the all white, Christian, gentlemen's house (no names please) and
    another was the Jewish House.  The former was so full of bigots, snobs
    and social climbing, image conscious, BMOC (remember that term- big men
    on campus) that I felt too confined, too hemmed in, as I was expected
    to associate with certain "types" and certain sororities, and of course
    avoid the "less desireable" minorities.  Their policies were abhorrent
    to me and in a grand manner, I let them know it as I depledged.
    
    The Jewish House was better in terms of acceptance and freedom of
    movement and association with others, and of course the parties were
    sensationally great.  I had less trouble in that house in terms of
    being able to "be myself" and feel valued for that (being one of four
    Christians in the house).
    
    But after all is said and done, I have not kept any long lasting
    friends from the fraternity system, gained no character building, and
    retained no value from the experience.  I look back on it as kind of
    something we all did at that phase of our life, similar to Boy
    Scouts in early youth.
    
    Which is how I think of all the "grown up" societies (ELks, Moose,
    Lions, Eagles, Buffaloes, Chipmunks, Squirrels, PussyCats, etc.). They
    all seem to me to cater to some kind of Boy Scout kind of mentality.
    (Oh yes, I do ackowledge the philanthropic/charity work they do.) But
    the behaviors I see in the members reminds me of Boy Scouts and
    Fraternities
    
    I guess I am just some kind of anti-groupie person.
    
    Oh well, my 2 cents and not worth much more.
    
    Paul
            

    
    Hmmm..  I went to Bates College in Maine which, according to the
    charter and by-laws, has no fraternities.  The school was founded
    on a set of egalitarian priciples and was one of the earlier
    schools in the area to admit women and people of color (1864).
    But, some of the same behaviors being attributed to frats occurred --
    they were just done in the boundaries of teams, dorms, or
    interests.  One of the frats at Bowdoin (about 30 miles away)
    challenged one of the Bates dorms to a drinking contest, confident
    of beating these no-frat wimps from Lewiston.  Well, the crew from
    Bates returned victorious, and just as they were embarking on
    3 day hangovers...  My point is, that frats or no frats, people
    will get into the trouble they get into.  Just because they're in
    a dorm instead of a frat house, doesn't mean that they won't
    push the Coke machine down the hill and into the lake when it
    runs out... or run a sword through all the galvanized metal
    garbage cans... or streak Dirty Ernie's store (just when Mrs. Ernie
    started the late shift)... or remove phones from the wall after
    pouring vodka down the slot and making a call to Anchorage...
    or -- you get the idea.
    
    William and Mary had frats, but they seemed rather tame.  I don't know
    if this had anything to do with the cultural constraints on
    "Southern gentlemen" or whether it was just because I lived
    off campus  8^)
    
    Ron

re.10
I will allow explaination of "boy scout mentality" before I feel offended.
 I gained more maturity and independance in 3 years of boy scouts than anyother
so called character builder before or since.

-j (eagle scout and proud of it)

       I was an AEPi at school, had a lot of fun, and enjoyed the social
       and educational support of the frat.  And I now wish that I had
       not supported the fraternity/sorority system (at least as it
       existed at Washington University and most other schools that I
       am/was familiar with).
       
       The fundamental problem with the Greejk system is that it is
       _exclusionary_.  Pledges were routinely blackballed [denied
       admittance] because they weren't bright enough, or because they
       dressed too sloppily, or for any of several other reasons, some of
       which were probably subconscious to the members who could
       disapprove potential pledges.  Many other people undoubtedly chose
       not to expose themselves to the pledge system, out of (often
       justifiable) concern that some sort of social baggage they carried
       around would prevent them from being asked to join the fraternity
       they wanted to join, or maybe even any fraternity at all. 
       
       As long as the Greek system continues to thrive at the expense of
       those who are (or see themselves as being) social or political or
       economic outsiders, then I think it unworthy of support. 
       
       --Mr Topaz

>       As long as the Greek system continues to thrive at the expense of
>       those who are (or see themselves as being) social or political or
>       economic outsiders, then I think it unworthy of support. 

 I can sort of understand the sentiment here.

 On the other hand, I see the houses as places where people of like interests
get together. At least, mine was. There were other houses on campus which
were far more cliquish; I chose not to associate with those houses. The thing
that attracted me to the house I chose was the fact that it was not a "cookie
cutter" type of place. There were no molds to fit into. It was loose and easy.
It wasn't perfect, but it was a cool place to be (most of the time).

 Like any other system, the Greek system has advantages and disadvantages that
must be weighed on a individual basis to determine whether participation
makes sense for a certain individual in a certain instance. 

 The Doctah

    To .12  J(eagle Scout)
    
    Sorry to have mislead you, did not mean to.  I have 2 eagle scout sons and
    I do know of the value of  BSA for helping boys mature.  I should have used
    another term.  Can't think of one right now.  My fraternity experience
    has left me very suspicious of one sex secular organizations, wrapped with
    passwords, initiations, conventions, codes, clubhouses, etc.  
     
    
                                                          

re.15
Thanks.
Maybe the term "societys" would fit or "eliteist organizations".
Either way I understand your meaning.

-j

       re .14:
       
       I think we're in agreement one this point: fraternities (and
       other exclsuive organizations) can be very useful for those
       who are allowed to belong to them.
       
       But, Doktah, your note omits any discussion of those who are
       excluded; it is the exclusionary nature of fraternities that I
       find objectionable.  My fraternity did not make offers to all who
       wanted to become pledges: there wasn't a systematic and obvious
       exclusion of groups, but when there were twenty candidates for ten
       openings, the ten who were turned away were far and away more
       likely to be the ones whom we thought to be not quite bright
       enough or not quite socially tuned-in.
       
       Did your fraternity ever deny acceptance to anyone who wanted to
       joiin?  If so, what was the basis that your membership chose for
       selecting and rejecting pledges?  
       
       --Mr Topaz 

>       Did your fraternity ever deny acceptance to anyone who wanted to
>       joiin?  If so, what was the basis that your membership chose for
>       selecting and rejecting pledges?  

 Yes. There was a secret ballot sort of thing- all the brothers had to vote
in favor of the potential pledge or no bid was issued. This was done ostensibly
to prevent conflicts between brothers and pledges, and had varying amounts of 
success.

> My fraternity did not make offers to all who
>       wanted to become pledges: there wasn't a systematic and obvious
>       exclusion of groups, but when there were twenty candidates for ten
>       openings, the ten who were turned away were far and away more
>       likely to be the ones whom we thought to be not quite bright
>       enough or not quite socially tuned-in.

 So you are saying that there should be no selection process at all?

 The Doctah

       re .18:
       
       > ...you are saying that there should be no selection process at all?

       I'm saying that the Greek system in most colleges and universities
       is exclusionary, one where candidates for membership can be (and
       often are) selected on rejected based on various social criteria. 
       
       This selection system might well be representative of many aspects
       of life in the adult world--after all, people's appearance and
       social status are not only important in being chosen for
       membership in clubs, but for jobs and lots of other things as
       well.  I just don't think that such a system has a valid place, or
       is worthy of my support, in the university environment, where so
       much of an individual's social growth and concepts can develop.
       You are, obviously, entitled to think otherwise.
       
       --Mr Topaz

    UCLA's Zeta Beta Tau fraternity instituted a "no-pledging" policy this
    past September.  Potential pledges are initiated within 72 hours of being
    accepted.  The new brothers learn the history, traditions and ritual of
    the house without the pressures of pledging.  The leaders of all eight
    national Black fraternities are recommending the same policy.  I don't
    know whether this curtials the "I'm O.k., you're not worth my time"
    aspects of frat life but it's certainly a step in the right direction.

    For those of us who didn't grow up in, or go to college in, this
    country, could someone provide a from-scratch description of the frat
    system. Eg what's a frat, what's pledging, what do frats provide and
    require,...
    
    	Andrew.

    Re: 21.  Being as objective as I can, here goes:
    
    FRATERNITY: A brotherhood of men, both current college students and
    alumni.  Members call each other "brother".  There are over 75
    different college fraternal organizations in the U.S. (about 30 women's 
    sororities).  Each fraternal organization has outlets on campuses
    throughout the country called "chapters" or "houses".  Chapters are often
    based in large, multi-story homes which serve as living, meeting and
    partying headquarters for its members.  Tau Kappa Epsilon, has 275
    chapters.  There can be any number of different fraternities on a given
    campus, often clustered together in a section of campus called "Fraternity
    Row".  The University of Illinois has the most with 77.  Some colleges
    have much fewer or none at all.
    
    HISTORY: The first fraternity, then called a Greek Letter Society, was
    formed on the campus of William and Mary College in 1776.  It was founded
    by nine friends who decided to bond together into a "secred society"
    dedicated philosophical and literary issues (the social aspect of
    fraternities came much later).  Their motto was: Philosophy, the
    Guide of Life.  When translated into Greek, the motto's abbreviation is
    P.B.K., short for Phi Beta Kappa.
    
    RUSH:  The process of acquiring new members begins during "rush", a
    period of days or weeks at the start of a semester where the houses
    host elaborate parties, mixers, sports and stunts to attract new
    pledges.  Rush events allow the prospective members to get a feel of
    each house and allows the brothers to scout out men they feel fin-in.
    At the end of rush, the brothers vote to invite a select mumber of
    canidates to "pledge" the fraternity.  The inviateion is called a "bid".
    
    PLEDGING: Receiveing a bid is not an express ticket to becoming a
    brother.  The men who have received bids form a group called a "pledge
    class".  For the next six to eight weeks, the pladges are at the whim
    ant mercy of the brothers.  During the pledge period, pledges are
    expected to learn the histroy, values and lore of the house, serve as
    embassadors of their house, form a tight, close knit community and do
    whatever is asked of them at any hour of the day or night: anything
    from cleaning the living room with toothbrushes after a food fight, to
    singing for a sorority dressed in bikini underwear to kidnaping the
    most obnoxious brother for a three day party.  These events are
    designed to build bonds.  When it gets out of hand, ugly, violent,
    cruel or sadistic it's called "hazing".
    
    INITIATION: During the pledge period, some pledges may change their
    mind and walk (as I did) or be asked to leave (rare but happens).  At
    the end of the ordeal is a ceremony steeped in ornate ritual called the
    initiation where the brothers welcome the pledges into their community
    as full brothers.
    
    What do frats provide and require?  That's the subject of this note.
    
    (Anyone, feel free to fill in the blanks I've missed.)
    
    Larry  
    

    Thanks very much for .22, which pretty solidly confirmed my suspicion
    that this would have been a bad idea for me.
    
    	Andrew.

    
    I remember from my days at UCD that there was one house whose 
    occupants were dismissed by some as grade obcessed nerds who 
    were often found donating time to the tutoring program in the 
    Dept of Engineering...
    

    Andrew,
    
    A few more definitions, in case you run into them.
    
    In case you haven't guessed, a SORORITY is the female version of a
    frat.
    
    There are numerous honor societies with greek letters which do not
    involve any of the pledging BS but rather serve other purposes and for
    which membership is usually earned on the basis of academic excellence
    and/or some form of public service.  Phi Bata Kappa and Pi Mu Epsilon
    are two which come to mind.  The former is a general honor society, the
    latter a math honor society.
    
    ed

    There are also "fraternities" that don't bear much resemblance to
    the typical "Greek" house.  "Triangle" at Cornell is one such, though
    many would view it with the description in .24.  I briefly considered
    joining, but decided that I wanted my life to be a bit more rounded
    than that typical of Triangle members (not that it was, sigh...)
    
    				Steve

    Not to flame, Steve, but I just flashed on a probably-unconcious
    stereotype when you included it in your note.  Personally...
    
    > ...but decided that I wanted my life to be a bit more rounded
    > than that typical of Triangle members...
    
    from the outside looking in, how could you *know* whether someone's
    life was well-rounded or not?  Much less an entire houseful of people?
    
    My house changed incredibly during the three years I associated there.
    And the individuals had, and retained, their myriad private interests as
    well.  Sure we did things together; but many of us had jobs (in food
    prep coops, in computer centers, as TAs, or in the Ithaca community);
    many of us had outside group associations (ROTC, Hangovers, Glee Club,
    Big Red Band, Crew, 150's, Chimesmasters, the Sun, of the university 
    affiliations; four guys also had a band, Riff-Raff, with some friends 
    from outside the house.)  The house had architects, engineers, hotelies, 
    artsies, ILRies, Aggies...living there didn't prevent, but probably 
    encouraged  a well-rounded life, because there was always someone 
    grinding when you wanted to party, and vice-versa.
    
    The Greek experience didn't preclude a "well-rounded" life, is all.
    
    DougO 

    RE: .2 & .27
    
    Doug, was your fraternity experience typical or atypical of wnat an
    incoming freshman might find on cllege campus X?  It seems your quite
    positive experience is the exception (at least compared to the notes
    posted thus far).  What I'm asking is, how far does a person have to
    search before finding a fraternity which leaves you more well-rounded
    than when you went in?
    
    Larry

    Oy vay, my friend, but your basenote just stepped from your friend
    who'll be matriculating at my alma mater, to any incoming freshman 
    at college campus X!  I can't say whether or not other campuses will
    mirror the fraternity experiences I had; stereotypically speaking, 
    I'd even guess they wouldn't.  For your typical college freshman
    doesn't even know what she is looking for, much less how to recognize 
    it when she finds it or fails to, during that period of her life.  I
    know I certainly didn't want to be associated with a stereotypical
    fraternity and that's why I *didn't* rush as a freshman.  I learned 
    my way around as an independent first.  In that, my experience was
    certainly atypical (most rushees are freshmen.)  And houses vary on 
    any given campus; there'll be jock houses, there'll be druggie houses,
    there'll be upper-crust yuppie-wanna-bes in their blazers...its up to 
    the individual to find a group that doesn't all look like they came
    from the same mold.
    
    > What I'm asking is, how far does a person have to search before 
    > finding a fraternity which leaves you more well-rounded than when 
    > you went in?
    
    That's an easier question...I found that my exposure to more diverse
    opinions and lifestyles was what provided that 'rounding' we're talking
    about.  One learns tolerance for diversity in styles from living with
    as wide an admixture as possible.  I found that kind of mixture in a
    house much more easily than I found it elsewhere.  My friends who
    stayed outside the fraternity system all formed their own associations
    from dorm friends the first year; they were often living with the same
    handful of folks three years later, having rented apartments as a group
    during each successive year....ummm....hey, that doesn't seem like
    anywhere near as much exposure to diversity as I got from living with
    35 guys with ~12 leaving and ~12 new joining, and a handful of their 
    girlfriends, for a year.  
    
    Am I talking out both sides, here?  Let me clarify; the individual who
    chooses to enter the fraternity system will be better served if they
    know what they want going in...or, at least, know what they don't want.
    As to how typical my experience was, I can't judge.  One thing our
    house recognized was that you get 30-40% turnover every year; 100
    percent every 4 years.  Any house can be made into what you want it 
    to be, if enough people get together to decide to make it happen.
    That willingness to participate in change, and to encourage it, was
    probably something you'd only see in a house of people who pay
    attention to things like how the system works; how people's
    institutions work; what "processing" is about and why its 
    important to understand some aspects of it.  Imagine how dynamic your
    job would be if one of every three coworkers was a new face every year,
    and you expected to move on yourself within three years...but you were
    all committed to doing the job right?  That can really work to a
    fraternity's advantage, as well as to its disadvantage.  So I find
    that in the end, its up to the individuals involved, to make the house
    the kind of place they want it to be.
    
    DougO

    .29 - Really good point, DougO.  My college didn't allow fraternities
    but a lot of guys seemed to roll their own.  Aside from hazings and
    such, frats couldn't have gotten much more insular than what they came
    up with.
    
    Ray

    Re: 29
    
    Thanks for the thoughtful overview.  I'll relate the essence of this
    string with my friend.
    
    Regarding my expansion of the basenote; I had no doubt you could hit
    a curve ball.  Again, thanks. 
    
    Allbest,
    
    Larry