Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    I've made at least 90% of the phone calls (where equity would call for
    50%). Depending on my frame of mind, esp. how my self-concept is
    holding up, I attribute it to one of:
    
        1) Most humans do not take the initiative to know people, period;
    
        2) It's PERSONAL, Hoyt; most humans don't want to know YOU.
    
    It really doesn't matter which is the better explanation. The fact
    remains that I have to take the initiative, if I'm going to know
    people.
    
    One strange side-effect is that I REALLY value the few who pick up the
    phone or write letters. I have one friend who has (practically) no
    redeeming features EXCEPT that he takes the initiative.
    
    A related phenomenon is the phone-call-for-expertise. I get annoyed the
    fifth consecutive time that someone calls "Hi, Hoyt, what's new? By the
    way, how do you format a 720K floppy in a 1.44 meg drive?"... i.e. I'm
    their DOS manual just a phone call away. It's TRUE, there's a small
    circle who call to invite me to parties, JUST because they know that
    I'll spend the evening being absurd on the dance floor, inspiring
    everyone else to boogie the night away (hint, hint :).
    
    - Hoyt

    
    I know that feeling too.
    
    From the other side, I know that if a friend reaches me on the phone,
    I'll only ask them to call back if I'm *very* busy. Often so busy that
    I forget to call back....
    
    It's hard not to take personally though.
    If it happens consistantly with a particular person I just let it drop.
    I like contacting to be around 50/50 equal....and I tend to tell
    friend that sooner or later if they're not playing ball....
    ;-)
    
    'gail
    P.S. Jerry - I've been meaning to ask you for ages - what *is*
    a gort??                                          
    

    As an otherwise caring, sensitive, understanding individual (most
    days), one my most unflattering character flaws is being a slowpoke
    in returning certain phone calls.  There's a short list of folks who
    get a return call from me withing 12-24 hours.  And then there are those
    good friends, loving people all, who I postpone, phone tag or just
    plain blow off.  Why?  I'll level with you:
    
    Noble excuse: I want a good block of time to have a real conversation,
    not just the headlines.  I'll delay until I can give an uninterrupted
    half hour or more.
    
    Triage excuse: The call was an invitation for a a content-free, "What's
    new/how are you" check-up.  A little delay won't endanger the free
    world.
    
    Psychological excuse: Each person brings a certain emotional spin to
    the conversation.  If I'm in a lousy mood, the last person I want to
    speak with is someone with is someone who won't understand that, or
    worse, expect me cheer them up. 
    
    Self-preservation excuse: The caller doesn't want a two-way
    conversation but a filibuster.  If the relationship is still in-play,
    I'll call after my to-do list is completed and let the person rattle.
    
    "The end is near" excuse: The caller has dropped to the junior varsity
    level of nurturing relationships.  A call back is a courtesy, not an
    obligation, and therefore gets second-string treatment.
    
    "The end is here" excuse: The caller has fallen off the interpersonal
    radar; only the gutted carcass of the relationship remains.  Better not
    to administer any life-saving gestures, the better to get the
    unfortunate message across.
    
    I'm not alltogether proud of some of these reasons but here they are. 
    The only saving grace to this is being on the receiving end of all the
    above.  Flame away if ye must ye Mennotes members but remember, let s/he
    who is without sin cast the first note.
    
    Happy New Year,
    LArry
     

    
    Hey Larry - I must openly and freely confess to having used all of
    those reasons to avoid a call in the past. I simply admire your courage
    in delineating the "get-out clauses" so clearly and for entering them!
    
    "We also sin that mostly read-only..."
    'gail

    What I like even better is the person who doesn't call you
    back, then runs into you someplace and complains that you
    never call!  You can't win!
    Along the same lines, are the people who never call you and
    then spew that line at you.
    
    Christine

>    I'll spend the evening being absurd on the dance floor, inspiring
>    everyone else to boogie the night away (hint, hint :).

 Doing what? Knees up, Mother Brown? :-)

    This is a note that is a hot button with me...I know people that I go
    back to 6th grade with, who I send Christmas cards to, and they never
    reciprocate. I also start most of the phone contacts. Probably most
    annoying to me is if someone says - ' I'll call later this week/month ',
    and then just drops the subject. I call them back later and it's as if
    the first contact never took place. How hard is it to pick up a phone ?
    For some people, long distance charges must be significant. Interesting
    to hear I'm ' not alone ' in this perception......

                         -< "I'll call you back.."   >-

>with sometimes when I call they are busy and say that they will call me
>back but it never happens. I always end up calling them back sometimes
>to enter the loop once again. I really don't think it's an avoidance

    This  reminds  me of one of the more painful situations in my  life.
    Like  many  men, I tend to have very few, but very dynamic and  very
    deep personal friendships, where  the  trust  and confidence is quite
    high.
    
    One such friend, a few  years  back,  slowly  let  the  time between
    contact  extend  from  weekly  contacts to  bi-yearly  contact,  and
    finally to never any more.
    
    I felt totally confused by his actions, since at one time we were so
    close i began to doubt my sexual preference,  but never broached the
    topic  with  him.    It  was scary, but I  learned  much  from  this
    experience,  which  led  to  a  tremendous "maturation spurt" as the
    implications hit home.
    
    I  think what I learned is this:  Many (most?) people  hate  to  say
    "Lets break up this <relationship>.  I have all I Need now,  we have
    grown apart.  Lets say goodbye, and be done with it ?".
    
    What people tend to do instead, is to let time and distance separate
    them, and find  "valid  reasons" not to continue with the friendship
    (where <relationship> can be  ===  friendship, as in this case), and
    the time drift sets in.  People "forget" to call back, are reluctant
    to call back for many reasons.

    When  people describe to me, such  as  what  is  described  here,  my
    comment is this:  Give it up,  unless the contact is so important as
    to make unilateral contact acceptable.
    
    The joke of the past 3 years, to  me,  is  that  my  wife  left some
    really close friends behind in France when she came  to  the States,
    and they NEVER write ..  it is the distant  casual  acquaintances she
    "knew" that have become excellent pen-pals ..  even the manager  of a
    store that she used to trade at.
    
    This  is  the  same  experience I shared while in the service.   The
    really "closest"  friends  let the relationship drop, and it was the
    casual acquaintances who became "best pen-pals".
    
    I have seen this phenomena in the life of a good friend, who had 
    (conservatively) 100 friends  in  DEC.    After  a protracted illness
    which left him a  shadow  of  his  former self, almost NONE of these
    people maintain contact with him.
    
    In  reviewing what I have  written,  it  appears  that  the  pain  of
    separation  (with really close friends) is  too  much  to  bear,  so
    people "tend" to let things drift apart.
    
    Can anyone agree/disagree with this assumption, based  on  their own
    experiences ? 
    
    -BobE
    
    
    
    
    

    I have many GOOD friends who NEVER write or call, but when we meet
    again it is as we had seen each other the day before... they plainly
    tell me that they are lousy correspondents, but they never forget me...
    and it must be the case, because I don't find myself in the need to be
    the one to call or write but whenever either one needs something...
    presto, we are there! I visit my country on a yearly basis and I meet
    my old friends on a yearly basis too, I never let them know WHEN I"ll
    be there either, but when we meet... it's great, I simply play their
    same tune. (if they are busy, so do I) and if they are lazy to pick up
    a phone, so be it, knowing that, the frienship does not suffer because
    it is not my problem, they are lazy, I am busy, but we still care for
    each other and we enjoy each other whenever we get together...
    
    I still am very close with 2 of my girlfriends that I met when I was 6
    years old... some of us might even be grandmothers now (we woundn't
    know!) each time we meet we "meet" new members of the family (read a
    child, or daughter, etc) and in those years... I guess I never got more
    than 6 calls or letters! still, the friendship is as steady and strong
    as ever! if in need, I can ask for ANYTHING! and I get it. (they know
    I'd do anything for them too)
    (I still correspond with my neighbors in Holland and I mooved out 
    in 1979... after living for 2 years) but see? they DO write, so I write
    and keep in touch with them.)
    

    .9
    
    I have had the same experiences , in the fact that my two best friends
    , now married don't bother anymore....they have their lives i have
    mine...I actually felt quite hurt this Christmas though when they
    didn't send me a Christmas card and yet though we rarely see each other
    a made the effort even though it was little , i took them a card...
    
    
    Un yet I met people on the golf course and people on holiday who keep
    in contact and have become good friends...
    
    I would like to think though if the chips were down and I called the
    old friends because I NEEDED them , they would be there , but I hope
    that time of finding out never comes , because I feel that these are times
    of need and are those of desperation....I would aslo hate to be
    dissapointed in my hopes !
    
    Tracie.

    I'd like to thank everyone for their input some very interesting
    comments.
    I have since confronted one of the people I have this problem with
    a best friend from school since 3rd grade we even were best man when
    we married. He said that since I am no longer married we just don't
    have that much in common anymore and there simply isen't anything
    to talk about.
    I won't lie and say this dosen't hurt alot I considered him to be my
    closest friend in life and one of the few people I could place total
    trust. It took 5 years to happen but I guess I lost another friend to
    my divorce and I feel some of the pain of that period of my life all
    over again. I don't think it's pressure from his wife she cuts my hair
    every few weeks and often asks me to give him a call and try to get him
    to go out and do something.
    
    I like the reasons list and see myself in several of them though I
    prefer to be up front when I'd rather not to talk to someone but it
    is not always easy to be honest. Funny thing is we (I) use avoidance
    as a way of not hurting feelings and probably do just that in the act.
    
    -j 

    re: .9
    my experience is similar.  i wonder if it is more prevalent among men
    than women?
    
    i lived in Texas most of my adult life, moving there in 1968 when I was
    28.  i left my home in California, and my best friend ('till then), Roy
    Barror stayed behind.  Roy and I were in the Navy together, in the same
    squadron, and went to Viet Nam together.  we came home together, he got
    married, and we stayed close until I moved to Texas.  I never heard
    from him again.  It was my loss.
    
    I made friends in Texas, but non were as close as Ron and Les.  We
    worked at Burroughs together.  Then Les quit and came to DEC.  Ron and
    I followed in a couple of years.  The other guys in the shop called us
    the 'three muskateers'.
    
    I moved to MA, and though we are still great friends, I seldom get to
    see them or talk to them.  I call once in a while, that's all.  
    
    But, I miss them.  And I still think of them as the best friends I've
    ever had.
    
    My wife has TONS of friends.  I envy her them, sometimes...but, I
    wouldn't trade MY few good friends for HER many friends.  
    
    I am making new friends... the author of .9 is amond them.  Time will
    tell who becomes close.  The making of new friends is a pleasure,
    though.

>    In  reviewing what I have  written,  it  appears  that  the  pain  of
>    separation  (with really close friends) is  too  much  to  bear,  so
>    people "tend" to let things drift apart.
>    
>    Can anyone agree/disagree with this assumption, based  on  their own
>    experiences ? 
    
There's a lot of truth in it.  All I wanted to add is: I don't 
believe that separation of close friends over time is always 
related to the pain being too much to bear.  Sometimes, it is 
certainly the case, but not always.

All I would like to submit is that it could be that there is more to 
"close friendship" than a compatibility between two people.  In other 
words, friendship occurs in a given context, and, when the context 
shifts, the friendship may falter.  

For example, I have had "college" friends drop out of my life, because 
the context of college and beinging "young and single" has shifted for 
all the people in the group.  As another example, I had based several 
friendships in hyper-self-analytical behavior, behavior that comes 
with the territory for people in the early and mid-twenties.  As I 
find myself moving away from self-analysation toward actualization 
("doing" something, as opposed to examining and thinking about 
something), I find that the number and quality of my conversations 
with some friends waning.  Geography, job, military service, age, and 
other contextual factors can "make or break" friendships between 
people who were at one time in rapport with each other and with their 
environment--until the environment and people changed out from under 
them.

I'd also like to submit that it might not be often true that people 
will 1) decide not to be friends with someone, and then 2) use 
separation and silence to undermine the friendship instead of ending 
it more directly.  I think that it most often (for me, anyway) happens 
in reverse.  It dawns on me that I'm not honoring my intention of 
calling someone, and that's data that I use to figure out that the 
friendship has run its course.  By the time that occurs, it seems 
redundant to call a meeting to say, "I think our friendship should 
end," because, in fact, time and separation has already ended it.

Oh, yeah, one more thing:  I've had several instances in which I've 
hooked up with old friends and, contrary to the "picked right up where 
we left off," built a new close friendship.  I was friends with one 
woman in highschool, and I didn't re-connect with her until I ended up 
working at the same Digital facility as she did (and our new 
friendship has waned since we moved to separate facilities; geography 
was a huge factor in that relationship).  Another friend and I used 
our highschool reunion and certain personal-growth issues to establish 
a new closeness, 6 years after he left my life due to me telling him 
that I was gay.

To sum it up, I'd hate to have a "let's end this friendship" meeting 
when it's obvious that it's over, and I'd hate to write someone out of 
my life who might come back into it, if the context once again shifts 
in our favor.


							--Gerry

    I think I've been on both sides of the fence: having been told, "I'll
    call you" only to hear nothing; to tell someone I'll see them around,
    and I never do.
    
    I find I often think about replying, but something else gets my
    attention and I forget...
    
    I've one friend from my 5th year at school (15) - he now lives in
    Gibraltar. Sometimes we send each other letters, but they're getting
    more spread out as time goes on...
    
    I have a notes-friend in the States I used to mail practically every
    day, now it's every month...
    
    Pete.