Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    I don't think there is a simple answer to your questions.  Its depends
    on the individual and circumstances.  In many cases I think porn is
    harmless. In fact it may relieve some people of sexual tension who
    otherwise would tend to harm people.  Then again it may arouse some
    people prior to harming other people.  So, I think it depends on the
    situation.  To say in a sweeping statement that porn is always harmful
    is not correct. Perhaps a bigger problem with porn is that it may turn
    someones attention away from people to fantasy and limit meaningful
    involvement with other people.  Part of the problem with porn is
    societies attitude toward sex which has strictly defined limits of
    acceptable behavior.  Since porn frequently depicts people behaving
    in ways which stress those limits porn is viewed in many cases as
    harmful.  I think as in most cases in life the bottom line is "is
    anyone hurt in a given situation".  If, in general people are not hurt
    then the porn should be ok.  The aura of cheap sex etc. surrounding
    porn is another matter.  People and their bodies should be respected,
    frequently porn tends to cheapen sex, and in that respect is not good.
    
    
    

        I don't have enough time to really address such a complicated,
    emotional subject, but here are some of my views:
    
    what is it? - not what the dictionary says. That definition is for
                  erotica. The Judeo/Christian attitude that arousing
    		  sexual feelings is pornographic is guilt-ridden crap.
    menace to society? - No
    Harmful to subject/viewer? - No, unless it becomes an obsession, and
    				 then it is the object of the obsession,
    				 which is different from the obsession.
    encourage insensitivity? - Yes. But the subtle messages outside "porno"
    			       are much more purvasive in their ability to
    			       teach vanity, sexual obsession, and
                               unhealthy attitudes about sex.
    lack of dinity? - Yes. To degrade the sharing of affection is
                           undignified.
    exploitation? - Yes. People exploiting their sexuality for money gives
                    the idea to the insensitive that economic principles
                    apply in areas they do not. I'm sure they feel guilty
                    all the way to the bank. As long as one woman
                    prostitutes herself, the offer will be made to all
                    women, although not by all men.
    abuse? - Not directly. Although the above situation gives an object and
             method for those that are abusive anyway.
    Victimization? - The victim is the person that chooses to exploit
                     themselves, and the person that obsesses on sex. Porno
                     doesn't cause either, but it gives both an avenue for
                     mutual gratification.
    Oppression? - No, Self-exploitation
    Harmless? - No, because of the indirect ramifications.
    
          I find the "jiggle-sex" on T.V. and in the media to fit my
    personal definition of pornography much more than the more explicit
    material simply because it is less honest. It is an attempt to
    manipulate me against my will to buy or tune in. A person that is
    willing to take off their clothes for my money is at least honest. Not
    my type, but honest. As far as the harmful effects on society: mixing
    sex and money in all the ways it has been done is not without harm, but
    I don't believe in legislating to the lowest common denominator. Yes, a
    small part of society will abuse anything, but it's the majority that 
    should rule. I'd like to see things different, but not by legislating
    the change. Women should not take off their clothes for money. Men
    should not buy anything that uses sex to sell it.
    
                             ZIP IT UP America...
                                                        M... 
                                                            
                             

    I've heard that "porn" for women means soap operas and romance novels.
    
    I happen to enjoy the X-rated section of my Video Rental store.  My all
    time favorite movies are "The Afternoons of Pamela Mann" and "Pleasure
    Hunt" starring Ginger Lynn. (Both of which I have my own copies)
    
    I never miss PlayGirl and I DON'T buy it because I like to "read the
    articles."  I do wish the magazine would show a "stimulated" man for
    a change but "nobody's perfect".
    
    I guess I won't make it on the "soaps & romance novels" list, but
    that's OK with me.
    
    I enjoy Porn.
    
    Sandie 

    RE.3
    
    What do like about it especially, Sandie
    
    Jurgen
          Brussels
    

    Pornography is a hot issue here in Florida.  It has caused me to march
    in my first protest demonstration every (and I lived through the VietNam
    War).
    
    I must take a strong stand for the First Ammendment.  The opposition
    says this is not a First Ammendment issue but I disagree.
    
    I believe the real issue is *POWER* and *CONTROL*.  If we allow others
    to tell us what to watch,read, or say, we have given them *POWER* over
    us and *THEY* enjoy that.  If I may, that's probably their pornography.
    
    The real and most benefical power comes from our own ability to decide
    what we want/need then turn off the radio or TV, don't buy the book or
    go to the movie that we as individuals find offensive.  Then *WE THE
    PEOPLE* have the *POWER*.
    
    Just for the record:
    
    Would I go to an XXX rated movie or rent a video tape?  yeah, If I was
    having a party or with an appropriate group.
    
    Would I go to a *blood* *guts* and *gore* movie? Probably not.
    
    What do I find most offensive in the print and movie media?  Four
    letter word type dialogue.  (I was *annoyed* by the language in ET)  If
    you have to has what language, you've missed my point.
    
    Enough,
    jerry
    

    Re:4
    
    Jurgen,
    
    I guess I really "get off" (no pun intended) on seeing a naked body.
    I think the body is beautiful and I enjoy looking at them.
    
    I enjoy videos.  I must say, I have learned a few things from some of
    the ones I have watched which I can't go into or I'd probably be banned
    for this conference.  I occasionally enjoy love-making while watching
    a video.
    
    I don't find any of it displeasing.
    
    Sandie
    

    I felt I must reply to this note as I have very strong views on this
    subject.
    Here in Ireland it is illegal to import films or books for sale to the
    general public. You may even have them confiscated if you bring them in
    from another country for your own use.
    I have acquired some books and films over the years and find them quite
    amusing at times. My so is not disturbed by them, and I am not
    disturbed by them. I feel that pornography is up to the person
    involved. There is very little in them which does not occur in most
    households on a night of love.
    
    Pornography is considered a *DIRTY* word by a lot of people here. I
    can remember being fifteen/sixteen years old and my parents would send
    me to my room or turn off the T.V. if there was any chance of a bit
    of nookie on it. I have not and will not do this to my children, except
    in the case of hard core porn. I would not like for them to see very
    explicit scenes as you would see on porn films.
    
    I find it very difficult to get any films here. It is impossible to get
    up to date books, most of the books we come across here are six or more
    months old. That is unless we know somebody who is going to the U.K.
    who can get some. They are freely available there, with no questions
    asked. However, recently when in Scotland I did buy a few and was given
    a rather strange look by the lady assistant behind the counter.
    
    
    I hope that someday the Government here will see the light and allow
    these manuals and films be made freely available for people to make
    their own choice.
    
    
    I would like to here more comments on this as we discussed it in detail
    at lunch break one day. The views were wide and varied.
    
    
    P.S. If anyone can send some Manuals, it would be appreciated. HA!HA!
    
    
    
    Flann.

    How right you are. The church here have a say in everything and
    normally what they say goes.
    There was a referendum a few years ago on allowing divorce in this
    country. The Government were under pressure to bring it in, and 
    would probably succeeded, but for the intervention of the Church.
    I remember being at mass one morning and hearing a priest tell
    the congregaton that if they voted in favour of divorce they would
    definitely go to hell.
    
    Obviously they believed as the Bill never went through. Like porn,
    people will just have to go on without, because of the tiny minded
    people in charge. It is not fair on a person in who is in a situation
    where they are not able to choose for themselves.
    
    
    
    
    Flann.

    Any form of censorship is totally out of order. I hate the way people
    like Mary Whitehouse try and tell us what we can and cant watch. What's
    wrong with seeing a good bit of rompy on the box, if people dont like
    it they can switch channels. 

>if people dont like it they can switch channels. 

 Of course, that doesn't quite explain what's supposed to happen when some
carpetbaggers come along and ruin the channel that these same people have
escaped to...

    	This is very culturally dependant, and the "intended to arouse 
    sexual feelings" mentioned in .0 is significant.
    
    	A few evenings ago I was watching a play on French television
    (state owned channel) and saw a young woman getting in to bed, and she
    might have been wearing contact lenses - I could be sure nothing else.
    A few seconds later the man she was getting into bed with was swinging
    from the chandelier and doing gorilla imitations on top of a book case
    to try to cheer her up since she was looking glum.
    
    	This seems to be the French equivalent to U.S. situation comedy,
    and the English Benny Hill. The intention was humour - the incongruous
    response to a beautiful woman getting in bed with you.

    I don't believe in censorship as a whole , but I do believe in
    moderation and for those people who do not wish to pay for this Porno
    when they get there television license I can understand them not
    wanting to see it on the box...but then again the same goes for any
    type of topic !!

    I wouldn't object at all to a bit of bone jumping on tv...  to me
    that isn't pornography.
    
    but, sadism, leathers, whips, and involving children IS.  
    
    THAT I would object to, and I'd hate to live where it was openly
    condoned.
    
    tony

    to paraphrase 461.14:
    
    > but, consensual exchange of power, different styles of dress,
    > exploring pain/pleasure relationships, and pedophilia IS.
    
    the only one that i would agree with is the pedophilia.
    and that is because at younger ages, people don't have enough
    information to make informed choices on what is good for
    them or bad for them.  if a 30 year old person chooses to
    take part in any of the other activities, i'm not gonna
    do anything to stop him/her.  also, if straight sex is
    permitted on tv, i don't see why alternative modes of
    sex should be restricted as well.
    
    and i would hate to live where consenting adults were restricted
    in their 'pursuit of happiness' because other adults could
    not force themselves to change the channel.
    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I am surprised that this is all you people out there are willing to say
    about porn. How boring. Maybe a computer company is by definition
    filled with "non-rock-the-boat type people". Or maybe it's fear of the
    "big brother" out there.
    
    One of the greatest mysteries of life is the fact that so many
    religions chose to control reproduction through fear and shame, way
    back into the distant past. Everything having to do with sex, which is
    mainly for reproduction of the species and its continuance on the
    planet, has been clouded with prohibitions, shame, embarrassment, sin
    accusations, etc. Makes you wonder whether our first ancestors were
    actually discouraged from reproduction because of someone's obscure
    reasons: perhaps fear of overpopulation or maybe it was simply another
    form of the collusion between church and state, which went like this: we'll give you willing
    give you slaves who will work for the state and not ask for any reward since
    we'll tell them they'll get their reward after they die. We will set
    strict limits to the fun they can get in life and extract as much work
    from them as we can. In exchange you will protect our priests, ministers,
    bishops, popes, whatever. 
    
    No other animal seems to have prohibitions against the functions
    dealing with reproduction. Only mankind.

Re: .16

Maybe most of us find porn boring, and don't consider it worth discussing.

I'm not sure what your point is.

		Steve

    Re. .16
    
    I don't think most people find porn boring. Otherwise the industry
    would have died a long time ago. Good porn tries to embellish or make
    sex more excitin 
    
    There's quite a lot of boring porn around, though. My point is simply
    that we should not attempt to regulate sex. It is a natural force with
    a laudable purpose: reproduction. Some may argue that a lot of porn is
    used in solo sex but if it makes people think about sex (a pro life
    force) it serves - at least - the purpose of pulling us away from
    depression and violence, both pro death forces.

    I didn't say "most people find porn boring".  I said "most of us
    find porn boring", referring to your astonishment that there wasn't
    a more heated discussion in this notes conference.  Of course, I may
    be wrong in my generality, but I do think that few enough of the
    people who participate here care much one way or the other about
    porn to make it worth discussing.
    
    Personally, I don't find porn makes sex "more exciting".
    
    			Steve

    re .18

    "Most" people finding porn boring is in no way antithetical with
    the porn industry surviving or even thriving. It doesn't take
    "most" to make something succeed; it merely takes "enough".

>                                   -< PORN -> SEX -> REPRODUCTION >-

Not necessarily.


			--Gerry