Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    I would guess that the women said the man would take the woman over
    the kids.
    
    I would like to ask why the guy would have to make any choice. 
    Why can he not have a full involvement with his children and still
    have the woman, if that is what he chooses.
    
    Before I go any further, I am a firm believer in the institution
    of marriage being until death do us part.  However, if for some
    reason the marriage should break up, the father should not have
    to make such an unfair and difficult choice.
    
    I have never understood the courts setting of visitation as every
    other weekend and specified holidays.  This would seem to relegate
    the father to an after thought.
    
    Ed..
    

    Questions like this bother me, because they make all sorts of
    assumptions that almost never occur in real life.  Though I'm not
    qualified to answer (I'm a father, but not married), I doubt I could
    even answer the question if I were married - it's just too absurd.
    
    What are we supposed to imagine - an alien lands in our front yard
    and tells me that it will kidnap either my wife or my son, and I'll
    never see them again?  Sorry, too silly to be able to answer plausibly.
    
    					Steve

    
    Not being a father, I can't really give you a realistic answer...
    
    As to the question, I don't think it's silly.  Reading "Sophie's
    Choice" gave me a whole new way of looking at the word "choice."
    Life is full of restricted or forced choices - although a good
    salary and a roof over the head offers a bit of protection.  If
    you're out on the streets with empty pockets and an empty stomach,
    be prepared for the hard choices.
    
    Ron (just being curmudgeonly while I mourn my Liberal agenda)

>    I would guess that the women said the man would take the woman over
>    the kids.
    
No, this isn't what I asked.  I asked the women that if _they_ had to 
choose, which would they choose.  I also know what my immediate response 
was. 

I was just curious.  I have no hidden agenda here.

There is a movie out now called "Good Mother" that depicts a situation 
where a woman had to make such a choice: her kid or her lover.  She 
chose her kid, but ended up losing both.  (I can't recommend the 
movie.  Diane Keaton gives a great performance, but I didn't think the 
movie was very good.)  I agree that "Sophie's Choice" is another good 
example of having to make a crummy choice in a crummy situation.  It 
_can_ happen.

What is surprising me is that the men in this conference are refusing 
to answer and that the two women I asked answered me without skipping 
a heartbeat, saying that the choice was "clear."  Interesting.


						--Gerry

I have some kind of mental block about spelling "choose" and "chose."  
Sorry!  :-)


							--Ger

    
    Gerry,
    	Now that I think of it, I've already made my choice in advance.
    	
    	No kids.  (Except for the four-footed furry variety.)
    
    	Guess it's clearer than I thought!
    
    	Ron

    I can't answer because my son is all I have.  If you had asked me
    while I was married, I would not have been able to decide.  Both
    my child and my wife were important to me - any answer I gave to
    an abstract question like this would be meaningless.
    
    I haven't seen the movie you mention, so I can't comment on that.
    
    				Steve

    I would chose the children.  I would also want my wife to chose
    the children.  I would chose my wife's life to mine.  
    
    To all of you who ask, "How could this happen?"  Very simple.
    Childbirth .  No, it is very rare these days, but in days gone by
    it was a possibility.  There could be emergency situations where
    this could happen.  Fire in the house, etc.
    
    My wife and I have talked about this (yes, it's a morbid thought
    and one we haven't talked about but once) when she was pregnant
    with our first child.  She told me that if it's between her and
    the baby, the baby comes first.  We talked about it and agreed that
    if we were ever in a situation where the choice had to be made,
    the kids would be first without hesitation.
    
    If something happened to my wife and someone I was seeing wanted
    to me to chose between her and my kids, my reaction would be to
    tell them to not tlet the door hit them in the *ss on the way out.
    
    God willing, noone will ever be put in this situation.
    
    Mike  
    
    

    Gerry, this is not a direct response to your question, but it
    reminded me of something my parents used to say to me:
    
       "You know, Alan, we would give up our lives for you".
    
    I truly believe they meant it. They are (well, my father just
    died) that devoted to my sister and me.
    
    When my own kids were born, I used to think of their remark and
    wondered why I couldn't say the same thing.
    
    It made me feel guilty. That somehow I wasn't as good a parent
    to my kids as mine were to me.
    
      Alan

    By the way gerry, what did the women say?
    

    Sorry Gerry, my shift key finger was not fast enough.
    
    Mike

    Interesting question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    If the children were young, still dependant, there is no doubt,
    I would choose the children.  I would hope that I would not love
    some man that would ask me to make that choice.  
    
    I love my children, who are all young adults, but if they decided
    that they did not like the man I am involved with and put pressure
    on me to terminate that relationship, I now would choose my man.
    
    Thank heaven they do like him, for he is a good man.  They are happy
    that I am happy with him and that he treats me well.  
    
    What would you folks do if your child, as a young adult, put conditions
    on your relationship with them? Such as "I'll see you/talk to you
    only if you do not bring up "her".  I'll  never agree to meet "HER"
    or will I ever go to the home you have with "HER" even if she agrees
    to leave the house for that visit? 
    
    Now assume that "HER" is the woman you love.  Met after the marrage
    you had broke up, and you are very happy with this woman.
    
    I'm asking this because I know someone that this is happening to.
    
    What would you, male or female, do about such a situation?
    
    Wondering!!!!!!!
    
    Suzanne
    
    

    
    
    I think that most women would choose the kids because they
    feel a responsibility for them.  Most adults can provide for
    themselves.  Whereas children depend on adults to provide
    for them both financially and emotionally.  The majority of
    mothers would never give up their kids which is what you are
    asking.
    
    Now on the other hand, my boyfriend is a non-custodial parent
    of a two year old girl.  I know that if he had to choose between
    us it would be her.  We have been in a relationship for over
    three years which is very strong.  We love each other very much,
    but his responsibility is towards his daughter not me.
    
    So I think if you ask a parent of course they are going to say
    their kids not their lovers.

    Other than a birth complication,(I would choose my wife)
     why would there ever be a need to make a choice ? 
    The hyporthetical questions usually get hyporthetical answers,
    which can't be used as a guide to life. 
    If you want something to ponder, have  your spouse and yourself
    write a letter to each other based on the question: 
       "What would My Life Be Without You"? 
    Allow thirty minutes to write the letters then swap the letters 
    and then share your feelings.
    
    Those who have been to Marriage Encounter will be familiar with
    this.
    
    Peace
    Jim 

    P.S. the previous note can be used by non- married couples also.
    
    

    I could not pick between my wife and my son. Could not. Period.
    The amount of pressure it would take would very likely kill me
    first.
    
    If something should happen to my wife and some future woman should
    ask me to pick between her and my son I would pick my son. Obviously
    a woman who what ask me that could not love me and I would be better
    off without them. 
    
    			Alfred

    I think that if my children were to put conditions on seeing/talking
    with me, I would have to, very painfully, tell them that when they
    have resolved their feelings to come around again.  I do not have
    any children, nor have I ever been married, so I can't fully comprehend
    how difficult this would be.
    
    Any children who truly love their parent, I would hope, would never
    put an ultimatum such as that mentioned earlier.
    
    I did not think of the burning house scenario.  Interesting situation.
     I think my first thought would be the children if I did not know
    the status of my wife.  However, if I saw my wife on the floor,
    I would possibly pull her out and then go back for the children.
     If they were all pretty close together, maybe the children would
    come first because I could handle more than one per trip.
    
    As mentioned earlier, this is a very difficult scenario to speculate
    on.  I think we all would hope that in times of crisis we would
    be strong.  However, until we are each tested, I doubt that we would
    ever really know what we would do.
    
    Ed..
    

    RE: Ed, you are quite right.  Until we are in such a situation we
    don't know how we would react.
    
    It's funny.  I did not think of a scenario of my wife and I
    getting divorced or my kids telling me to decide between my wife
    or new girlfriend, etc.  Don't even want to think about it either.
    I could never see something like this happening to my family although 
    I know it happens quite often.
    
    Mike

    
    re. 17
    
    I could easily see kids putting pressure on parents to choose
    between them and the other person.  I grew up in a single
    parent household because my father passed away.  When I was
    a teenager, I had a real tough time with my mom dating other
    men.  I felt she was betraying my father.  This feeling was
    shared by my brothers also.  We saw the men as threats to our
    family.  We felt that if she did fall in love with him that
    they would marry and we the kids would be left out of it all.
    
    Now this was many years ago.  I am older now and realize that
    we were wrong for not thinking of our mothers happiness.  But 
    when you are that age you really don't think of anyone but yourself.
    We loved our mom then and we love her now.  So I know that kids
    who love their parents can and sometimes do put pressure on that
    parent to make a choice.  It all depends on the situation.
    I am sure this scenerio has also been played out in divorce 
    situations as well.

    
    I tend to agree with Jim. If there was a birth complication
    I'd choose my wife. Otherwise it really is a terrifying question
    (for me) to consider.
    
    								Hank

    
    Can't even answer this one.  Not for lack of trying.
    
    

    I've been in this situation in my current marriage, and, since the
    children are young, I chose the children.  I brought
    them into the world, and I feel responsible for maintaing at least
    a modicum of stability, caring, and a loving home for them.  That does 
    NOT mean it doesn't hurt to feel forced to make a choice, but in the
    long run, my husband could survive alone and make choices about his life.
    My children wouldn't be allowed too; therefore, while they are too young
    to choose, my children come first.  If the children were out on
    their own, I wouldn't need to worry about it.  I would do what I
    wanted.
    
    Barb

My women friends answered that they would choose their children.  What
alarmed me is that they indicated that it was a clear choice, that
they didn't have to think about it very much.  The speed of their
answer and the clarity of it for them was what startled me, especially
since I answered in my head "I'd choose my lover."   (I think that my 
answer is colored by the fact that I am a gay man; it has been a long 
time since the concept of "kids" was important in my life, never mind 
real children.)

After talking for a bit, the women mentioned the blood bond with the 
children as being something that could never be broken whereas a love 
for a partner can go bad.  They also mentioned that the kids needed 
them more as dependents and that their partners could survive without 
them.

But all that was rational.  What stays with me was the gut-reaction 
and the initial speed of the answer.  "Hands down!  The kids."


						--Gerry

    When my daughter was a baby and I was still married to my ex-husband
    (and still in love) there was a period of time when I still would
    have picked my ex-husband.  I'm not sure exactly when it happened
    but by the time my daughter was, maybe 1 1/2 yrs., she would have
    come first.  (Even though I still loved my ex at that time.)
    
    Now that I'm divorced my daughter comes first and she always will.
     I want her to know that whatever happens in her life, or my life
    that as long as I'm alive, she is the number one person in my life.
     Lovers and husbands can come and go but Melissa will always be
    my daughter.
    
    I know that my boyfriend's boys by his ex would come first with
    him, too.  I just accept the fact that once people get divorced,
    and have kids by their ex's, and new lovers, that the bottom line
    is - the kids come first.  In a way it's sad, though, because I
    realize that the way it was when I was dating my ex and we were
    both young and single with no children and put each other first
    is something that will never be again.
    
    I have always been somewhat jealous of the fact that although my
    parents loved me and my brother, they always put each other first.
     They were in love for 37 years until my father died, and they always
    put each other first, and us second.  Sometimes I wonder if I don't
    feel cheated deep down because I didn't find this same type of
    relationship.  I can remember my mother telling me once when I was
    a teenager and had been fighting with my father a lot, "Don't ever
    make me choose between you and your father, because I'll choose
    him.  He comes first with me."
    
    But, even though I sometimes wish I came first with whatever man
    is in my life, I realize that it's not really fair to expect it
    because since my marriage got bad, my daughter comes first with
    me.
    
    But, as far as birth complications go, I would choose *myself* before
    an unborn child I didn't even know yet!  
    
    Lorna
    

    When my parents were divorced, my father supposedly told my mother
    that he would not leave if she "gave up" the kids.  We are a large
    family - 6 children.  I found that comment rather disconcerting
    at the time.  After these comments, I understand that my mother
    placed the children first and her husband second.  This is not to
    say that she did not love him.  The level of her hurt over the divorce
    (10 years ago) shows me she cared very deeply.  This is also not
    to say that there were not other problems.  This was just one.
    
    Ed..
    

    I have personal knowledge of a situation where the mother of a family
    (12 year old girl, 10 year old boy) decided that she no longer loved
    her husband. Some of the things that he did was force her to move
    to a new house because it was more prestegious, better location,
    etc. He is a tremendous skier and spends most of his free time on
    the slopes in the winter while she & kids stayed home. He did however
    spend more time with the kids than she. She is in New Orleans at
    least once a month for 3-5 days. He helps the kids with homework,
    gets them dinner, has completely redone the house himself. So you
    can see that he is status driven, she is career driven.
    
    The situation recently deteriorated and SHE left HIM!!She also left
    him with the kids saying that he is a better a father/mother than
    she is mother. The kids are devestated to say the least. She told
    her son that she didn't love his father anymore and that theywould
    never live together as a family again. She told him that she was
    happier now (Without the kids???) than she has been in years and
    he (at 10 years old) had to learn to deal with the situation. He
    also has developmental learning problems (very slow). 
    
    At this point, she is dating her boss (has been for a couple years
    it now appears) and he is dating the ex-wife of a raquetball partner
    (she is playboy centerfold in appearance, also smart) and the kids
    are often left alone in the house for hours and alone overnight.
    
    I guess what I'm saying is that if you choose partnership for yourself,
    what happens to the kids?? My heart is breaking for these two. 
    I wouldn't give up either my wife or my kids. There's no situation
    that under normal or even some abnormal conditions that could force
    that upon me. 
    
    Ken

    I was in the situation of having to choose.  it was my husband
    and his drugs and booze and his friends, did I want to live
    with him and have my daughter exposed to him and his.  did I want
    to expend energy trying to assist him in seeing what he was doing
    to himself and us?  did I want to constantly risk being arrested
    because I didn't turn him in? did I want to explain over and over
    again to my daughter why dad acted the way he did?
    
    nope, we moved out.  and now and till my daughter makes her own
    life, she will come first.  any man in my life has to understand
    that.  if they should ever jepordize my daughter or hurt her or
    expose her to drugs, they are gone.  simple to me.  
    
    vivian    

     At one time it was my wife that would have, and did, come first
     but now since my divorce the kids will always come first. You 
     cant depend on a partner to be their always. But the kids will
     always be their. 

    .0
    
    If I had to choose between a "lover" or a "partner" and my kids
    I would choose my child(ren) in a heartbeat.
    
    If I had to choose between my wife and my child, I don't know who
    I would choose.
    
    jeff

    A woman has an instinct to protect her children.  She does not have
    an inborn instinct to protect a man.  That might be one reason that
    women can make the choice so quickly and clearly.  The children
    are dependent upon her, while the man is capable of taking care
    of himself.
    
    I can think of situations where a choice might have to be made
    between a lover and children.  For example, you're a single custodial
    parent with a lover.  (This reason may be far-fetched, but you
    get the idea) One of your children has to move to another climate
    for health reasons, and you have an ex or parents living in that
    climate who are willing to let the child live with them, if you
    decide not to move yourself.  Your lover cannot move for job
    reasons.  You have child in point A and lover in point B.  Do you
    move to be with the child, or stay with the lover?  Once the
    relationship is established with the lover, that can be a tough
    decision to make.  
    
    Paula

    Re: .30
    
    Paula, you did not say this, but it could easily be inferred that
    you don't think a man has an instinct to protect his children, given
    the way you phrased your response.  I'm curious to know if this
    is in fact what you believe.
    
    Re: all
    
    Just about all the situations presented here where the parent would
    "of course" choose their child have been cases where the "partner"
    is casual, recent, uncommitted, or even abusive.  That makes the
    decision much easier.  Perhaps it was my own interpretation, but I
    took the original question as applying to a happy, long-standing
    relationship between the mother and father of the child.  In that
    way, you have to seriously look at the difference, if any, between
    the love of a child and the love of a spouse.  Given the way I read
    the question, I could not answer it.
    
    				Steve

    re .31           
    
    Steve,  I would think that a man would have instincts to protect
    	    both his children and his wife.  Maybe that's why it
    	    seems tougher for men to make that decision than women.
    	    Women have a very strong instinct (usually) to protect
    	    their offspring.  (Look at some of the other mothers in
    	    the animal kingdom - bears, etc.  NEVER get between a mother
    	    bear and her cubs!)  I think there's more of a tendency
    	    for a man to feel protective of his wife than vice-versa.
    	    I also think that he has protective feelings toward his
    	    children, but not being a man, I don't know how strong that
    	    is (that is, if it gets as extreme as women's protective
    	    feelings).
    
    Paula

    Not too long ago I was put in the postion to make this choice. 
    Significant pressure was applied by my second wife to skip town,
    not pay the rather huge child support, and 'If you loved me you'd
    give me your all' .  After we were married, my two sons became persona
    non grata in her /our home.  She had two children of her own.
    
    Personally, I have allways visualized the confusion a child would
    have in a stresful situation like a serious traffic accident or
    fire or the like.  Children have no base of experience to draw on.
     What they need to know about their parents is that they are loved.
     Abandoning a child destroys that inner knowledge and breaks down
    his confidence.  I suppose a mate has a need to know where you stand
    as well but, drawing on a larger base of experience, he/she will
    survive without great emotional damage.
    
    In my case, I tried every way I could to keep the situation form
    exploding.  I did not, howver stop visiting my children.  I did
    not ignore my financial responsibilities for child support and I
    did not skip town.  What I did end up being is a single parent again.
    Not necessarily by my own choice.
    
    Save the children.
    
    Bob