Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    
    	Jim,
    
    	I noticed the same thing with my daughter, also with my son
    	as you have. It seems once my daughter hit about 12-13 she
    	no longer did anything unless it was the "in thing" with
    	her peers. She also at about the same time, could have cared
    	less what adults would say/think. It seems to be very important
    	to young girls to be a part of the group. She would want to
    	do things just beacuse everyone else did them, not because
    	it was something she really wanted to do.
    
    	 With my son (3 years younger), the same thing happened, but
    	at a much latter age, around 15-16. Again, peer group acceptance
    	is the key for all their actions. Rejecting parent advice/authority
    	is just part of it. Have faith, they do outgrow it and will
    	come around to once again being normal human type people. ;^)
    	With my daughter it was when she was around 18-19. My son is
    	going on 18 and I'm still waiting for him. (Oh god, please help
    	me make!!! ;^}).
    
    	Good luck,
    
    	G_B
    

    Jim,
    
    I have a 13-year old daughter, too.  Same symptoms.  Everything
    she thinks about revolves around her peers.  Her values are so
    different from mine - we don't understand one another.  I value
    honesty, integrity, being true to yourself; she just tries to
    impress her friends and peers.  For example, she used to refuse
    to go to K-Mart with me, because she was afraid someone would
    see her.  Then one of her "cool" friends got some jeans there, and
    now it's okay.  She'll duck down in the convertible if her hair
    is messy, for fear of being seen by her friends.  Her appearance
    is about the most important thing for her - if she has trouble
    with her hair before school in the morning, she'll go into a rage,
    and start everyone's day badly.
    
    Not only does it drive *me* crazy, but it causes problems between
    me and my SO, whom she drives absolutely bonkers.  He really gets
    ticked off by her self-centeredness.  (Anybody have any advice on
    what to do about this?)
    
    Furthermore, she has no respect for authority of any kind - teachers,
    me, other adults, whatever.  I'd never have *dreamed* of saying
    things to teachers that kids (including mine) say now days, and
    get away with.  When I tell her to do her chores, she either ignores
    me, makes excuses that's she's busy with something else, or has
    to re-do them 4 times before she does them completely and well.
                     
    It's ME,ME,ME...all the time.  No consideration for anyone else,
    whatsoever.  And everything she does is based on what her friends
    would think.
    
    RE .1	They'll grow out of it, you say?  Geez, I hope so!
    
    Paula
    

re:.0

I had/have the similar "problem" with my daughter also... She's 12. She's very
much of a "social creature", or at least becoming such, although I have found
it useful to keep up with things that she is interested in.... like music.... I
know, it means being familiar with groups like Poison and Whitesnake (yecch),
but she thinks she has a very "hip" dad... Actually she knows I keep up on such
things because she's interested in them and she has developed an appreciation
of that.



Ken

    Well, I also have another problem with my 13yr old daughter. There
    is this 18yr old boy who has been calling her. I know the boy and
    he's a nice looking very popular guy. You'd say he's a real politition,
    because all the adults like him as well. He's the type of guy that
    gives you the impression of being a real charmer. I, however
    don't feel he should be calling my daughter and she has been calling
    him as well. She says they'er just friends, which I think is what
    he feels, but I sense my daughter hoping for something more, even
    though she denies it, and I see her boasting to her friends about
    this guy. This week-end I told her I don't want her calling him,
    and that He is to stop calling her. I told her that the maturity
    level between the two of them is to different. Of course the bomb
    went off and she started yelling that I'm mean and this guy is just
    a person she can talk to and tell different things to that she can't
    tell her friends. The thing is her best friend has told her she
    should stay away from this guy, becasue he is to old for her. Last
    night she seemed to be accepting it better, but I don't know if
    she try to sneak phone calls in. 
    In all, I feel like I'm to strict as a parent aometimes, yet the way
    she follows the crowd, I feel she has to learn self-discipline.
    I know my wife and I are not alone, because we hear the same things
    from other parents of teena-age girls.
    
    Jim
    

    re:6
    I hear ya. The thing is I really don't think he has more than
    friendship on his mind. When we've gone to our club and he's there,
    he goes over to all the teenagers and invites them to join in with 
    the group for vollyball and whatever they'er doing. He makes all
    the kids feel welcome. He always has a big hello to  the adults,
    and you can't help but like the guy. However, I just feel at his
    age he should be leaving the 13yr olds alone. He deffinately can
    be an influence in the wrong direction if he wanted, because he's
    looked up to by all the kids in the communtiy. I just don't know
    him well enough though, and I have been warned by another parent
    about his charming personality. Apparently her daughter was involved
    with a drinking party that this kid threw. She is also 13yr old.
    I don't know the whole story, only what this woman told me, and
    she hasn't got a good record to be trusted with, but its enough
    to make me cautous of him.
    

    Jim

    
    RE.4 . I believe that you have made a major accomplishment by accepting
    your daughters taste(ie.Poison and Whitesnake) in music. Although
    it might not be what you like,It is something that your daughter
    can identify as something that both she and her daddy enjoy. A major
    problem that I believe occurs in most families is that when the
    daughter(or for that matter,sons)is born until the day she goes
    to school, the major male influence in her life is her Father. Once
    she starts attending school,that single Dominant male influence(Daddy)
    is no longer. The young girl interacts with fellow students(boys)
    and Teachers(Men). 
    It is at this time that us Fathers must make an additional effort
    to spend as much free/quality time with our daughters. We must
    do things that our daughters enjoy doing. We must listen to our
    daughters when they talk and we must also learn to talk(not preach)
    back. We must continue this from now until the day we die.
    Todays kids are faced with a lot more than any other generation.
    Sex,Drugs,Violence are a part of our society whether we like it
    or not and our children are learning about them at such an early
    age that it is scary. However, If we COMMUNICATE from that early
    age and carry it thru,If we shre EXPERIENCES with our children at
    that early age and carry it thru, If we are HONEST and OPEN with
    our children at that early age and carry it thru, We have laid the
    foundation that should carry on with the child as she/he grows up.
    
    RE.6  I totally agree with you on the statutory rape. No 18 year
    old boy is suited for a 13 year old girl. Let him call girls his
    own age(Does he have a problem with that). Also if the above 
    paragraph occurs it should minimize that potential problem because
    your daughter should know that it is too much of an age/biological
    difference. 
    

    re:9
    I teach high school religous ed courses, and I do see what Marge
    has said, that after sophomore age they become human again. The
    best we can do is help them trust us enough, so that they can talk
    to us when they have a need. Right now I'm afraid of whether she
    trust my wife and me enough. It seems right now that the only thing
    she will listen to is the things see wants to hear.
    
    Jim 
    

    Jim-
        
    I agree with Marge about talking to the 18 year old.  Having had
    5 daughters, I can also agree that they eventually turn out to be
    wonderful people (most of the time anyway:)).  One other thing I
    would definitely do is to talk to my daughter about birth control.
    If and when "love" bowls her over, SHE will be the person ultimately
    responsible if she gets pregnant.  If you doubt it, read the various
    topics on birth control, and abortion.  Since she seems to insist
    on spending time with a boy 5 years older, and you cannot hope to
    watch her every moment, some good birth control advice, and perhaps
    even "the pill" might very well be in order.
        
    As for the general attitude of a 13 year old girl, she sounds quite
    normal.  As a single parent at the time, I laid down some firm ground
    rules about what any of the members of the house could or could
    not do.  I used the "tough love" approach and made them stick. 
    The teenagers had some trouble sticking to the "house rules", but
    when they later grew to become "rational women", they agreed that
    it was good to know what limits were set and said it made them feel
    more secure.                                   
                                                   
    Wishing you the best with your daughter-       
                                                   
    Barb                                           
    on                                             
                                                   

    Hi, I saw this note and knew that I should definitely respond to
    it, since it was relevant to my life.  I am a 19 year old college
    student, I am doing my co-op here at DEC for Northeastern University,
    just to tell you a little about myself.
    
    Regarding the previous notes, I went through all of it you could
    possibly imagine.  At about 13 years old, I rebelled against my
    parents and did everything that I wanted to do, even if it meant
    hurting them.  I was very self-centered, and everything was ME ME
    ME.  As a teenager, the biggest thing is to be accepted amongst
    your peers as an equal, whether it meant having those designer sneakers
    and jeans, or shopping at a certain store, or just using certain
    language.
    
    My father and I disagreed on EVERYTHING.  He never had any sisters,
    just one brother, so he didn't understand about wearing makeup (which
    he always use to yell at me to take off), or taking 3 hours to do
    my hair (everything had to be perfect).  Agreeing on clothes was
    the hardest.  He couldn't figure out why I would want to spend an
    extra $20 on a pair of jeans just for a Jordache label, but I HAD
    to have them.  
    
    Things went on like this for about 4 more years, and it got worse.
     There were actually periods where I hated my parents (or at least
    thought I did), I thought they were my enemy, when all they were
    trying to do was just understand what I was going through.  I had
    started smoking (due to peer pressure) and smoked up until recently
    when I quit (YEAH).  Instead of trying to figure out why I had started,
    my parents would just yell at me each time they smelled smoke, and
    show their disapproval, as a result of it, I smoked even more. 
    It was almost like getting back at them, when they told me not to
    do something, I did it.  (Also, at the same time my sister was going
    through it too, she is only 13 months younger than me, so my parents
    had TWO of us to worry about).
    
    I know I am rambling on, and I am sorry.  What I am trying to say
    is that you have to try to remember what it was like growing up,
    it is a very difficult stage of life, and it is going to get worse
    before it gets better.  You have to show your daughter that you
    care and love her no matter what decisions she might make in her
    life.  You can give her advice and tell her the pros and cons about
    things such as smoking, sex, music, drugs, peer pressure, etc.,
    but you have to remember that they will make that decision, not
    you, and you have to be there to support them, even if it is the
    wrong one, or the one that you don't agree with.  
    
    I never realized just how much my parents meant to me until I left
    for college.  My dad would call me three times a week to see how
    I was doing, and I would call mom about twice a week.  I knew I
    had hurt my parents growing up ( I did HORRIBLE in high school),
    and I made up for it in my first year, I ended up with a cum of
    a 3.2 out of a 4.0, and my parents WERE SO PROUD OF ME, and they
    told me that, and it made me feel good.  For once in my life, I
    knew I had done something RIGHT.  
    
    Stephanie
    

    Thanks for sharing that Stepanie. I remember my teenage years, and the
    things I did. Thats what I'm scared of. I was lucky to get through
    it without hurting myself. The thing with teens is that they are
    no different than when we were teenagers. The pressures are more
    intense, but they want the same things we wanted. To be accepted. To be
    different is death to a teenager. When I was a teenager in the
    sixties, the motto was, " do your own thing", however no one did.
    We followed the crowd just as every generation did before us. 
    The thing I wish most, is that my daughter, my wife and I could spend some
    quality time together. However it seems that at this age, spending
    any kind of time with parents is the last thing she wants. Having
    a little brother is her biggest trial though. I'm sure we'll all
    get through it, grey hairs and all.
    
    Jim
   

    I've been following this note with much interest and I, like Stepanie,
    can share with you "Men" my REAL LIFE experience at 12 or 13.
    
    Like you've all said, nothing much mattered in life to me at that
    time EXCEPT peer acceptance.  I had to be one of the "IN CROWD"
    or "COOL" (by the way a 50's revival word)!  My mother was a strict
    disciplinarian (ala the belt with the buckle end for the BIG ONES)
    and my father was the "soft touch" easy going type.  So, of course,
    I'd play one against the other to get the vote to go my way on any
    and all issues.
    
    One, I will relate, was a scenario involving an 18 year old, who
    took more than just a casual liking to me (I was 13).  My mother
    "FORBID" me to see him.  My father went along with her - but more
    sedately.  The more they told me not to see him, the more I'd sneak
    to see him.  This guy REALLY manipulated the KID in me (So, your
    concerns about your daughter are TOTALLY ON THE MARK).  He ended
    up raping me - physically and mentally - and it took me five years
    of heavy duty therapy and religion to get back on track.  
    
    I guess it really was as a SOPHOMORE that I started seeing the 
    student and lady in myself and swung completely the other way.
    Got all A's in every course, was the salutatorian of a graduating
    class of 600, got a four year scholarship to Bentley, etc.
    The one thing I did not regain was my TRUST in men in relationships.
    (Every relationship since has ended due to violations of TRUST).
    
    So, my advice for the daddy of 13 year old daughter with the 18 year old
    guy is don't take this "relationship" lightly.  They are probably
    LYING to you about it and you may be LYING to yourself about it.
    I'd take my mother's approach in this case (she threw the guy out
    of my house, physically, went to his parents house and said it'd
    be a court case if they didn't convince him to back off).
    
    He backed off, I backed off.  Ma did her job!!
    
    Dolly
    
    
    
    

    RE:14
    Thanks for the warning Dolly. My wife and myself have told her not
    to call this guy anymore. If she is sneaking there's not much more
    we can do until we catch her. I'm hoping that her girl friends advice
    to her not to see this guy sticks. I'm hoping and praying. 
    
    Jim

    Jim,My daughter is 1 1/2 years, is this what I have to look foward
    to?  Oh no!:').  
    
    I definitely would have that talk with the boy.  It might not be
    a bad idea to be cleaning your shotgun at the time.;')  This sounds
    like a very volatile situation to me.  It seems to me the only reason
    he would want to be hanging around a girl 5 years younger than him
    at their age is because she does want to be accepted and is more
    easily manipulated.  I would start educating her on all the things 
    that could happen to her if sex became a factor.  I'm sure there are 
    some things going on at your church that could address these things.  
    (Teenage pregnancy, etc)
    
    Yeah Jim, remember what it was like when you were growing up.  On
    second thought that might not be a good idea I just remembered what
    I was like when I was growing up. :')
    
    (I'm getting gray just thinking about what I'll be going through
    in 11 years)
    
    Mike
                            
    

    
   > cleaning your shotgun
    
    I sure he'd be real impressed with that... 

    I sure know I wouldn't be... in fact I'd probably tell
    you where you could stick it -;
    
    You people always brandish guns first and talk later?
    
    

Jim,
   Setting aside the other issues and referring back to the original
 question about whether all girls are like this at that age - my answer
 would have to be an emphatic "No!".

   My oldest girl (17 last week and a HS Sr.) never really went through
 that "do it because it's IN" phase - she just kinda went with the flow
 and did her own thing. She's involved in HS band and is an honor student.
 (Although I must admit, she's now going with one of the sharpest guys
 in the senior class!)

   My younger one, on the other hand is now approaching 15 and is a Freshman.
 To her, popularity is _*EVERYTHING*_! [The only reason I'm writing this
 now is because she's at a friend's house overnight and all of her friends
 know she's there hence the phone isn't being interrupted with call-waiting!]
 Yup! Field Hockey was the IN thing to do - even though she admitted she
 didn't really like the game! [She called me at work the day she got on the
 team and told me she was going to be the goalie. My response was "You mean,
 'the target'?"]

   So, my experience says that they don't all go through quite the same
 phases. I guess the real question is how/when do they grow out of it?
 Gosh! With my 15 year old where she is now, and my 17 year old already
 past it, I guess I must have forgotten already!

 -Jack

    Interesting note ...
    
    	I also have two teenage daughters, the oldest is 17 and the
    youngest is 15. Like many other notes here I too am having difficulty
    relating to my 17 year old ... it actually started when she turned
    about 13.
    
    re .8 and .10
    
    	"Sophomore" you say .... do you mean sophomore in college ????
    
    can't mean high school 'cause' we've already passed that!
    
    concerned_Father_who_has_not_always_been_gray
    

    Jim--
    
    You sound  like a concerned, loving, and intelligent father.  I
    can well remember myself at 13, and how self-centered I was--! 
    It's a miracle that my family and I are so close now.  But rest
    assured;  they do regain their common sense, and remember the good
    things you've taught them.
    
    I'll add my own 13 year old (must be the age for it) girl and 18
    year old boy story--only mine was 20, and certainly old enough to
    know better.
    
    I met this guy thru a friend of my dad's, and it turned out later
    that he was truly a wacko.  But, at 13, the traditional time that
    female hormones rule a girl's mind and sense (;-) ), I thought he
    was exciting, adventurous, and wildly different than anyone I had
    ever known in my short life.  He was "so different" from my parents
    that it made me look at everything in a way that I never had before;
    which, at a later age might not have been so bad.  At 13, it was
    disasterous for me.  Without going into the gory details I will
    say that this relationship was extremely distructive to me, and
    harmed me.  I remember my dad saying to me, "What does a 20 year
    old MAN want to spend time with a 13 year old GIRL?!  Can't he make
    it with someone his own age?"  
    
    Please get information, and follow your instincts.  Get your
    information, but if something smells funny, it usually is.
    
    Keep us posted, and good  luck,
    
    Jane
    

    re:all
    Let me clear somthing up. The 18yr old is not going with my daughter.
    He called her a couple times, and my daughter had been calling him
    since then. Anyway she hasn't mentioned or talked to him in a couple
    weeks, as far as I know. This week in fact was pretty good as far as 
    attitude goes. Hope it stays.
    
    Jim

    I'll second Bob Holt. If this situation continues, would you consider
    TALKING to this 18 year old? And by talking I also mean listening.
    Besides, by talking to him you'll let him know that you're concerned,
    and if you  do some of the talking in front of your daughter, you'll
    let her know your concerns, and his replies to them. Of course,
    they'll both probably consider it unwarranted intrusion into their
    personal lives...
    
    	-- Charles