Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    I believe that Jim Baranski entered quite a volume of notes in both
    Human Relations and Womannotes on this subject.
    
    Elizabeth
    

    I was (AM) a loving, dedicated and totally involved father. The
    reasons of the divorce were between the relationship of my former
    and me, and the children were not a cause or issue in its demise.
    
       My sons, aged 4 and 5 years, I love like there's no tomorrow.
    
       But when my wife evicted me from MY home, and sued me for divorce,
    the 6th Probate Court of Worcester, Mass., granted custody to my
    wife, automatically - without hearing a word from either of us.
    
       In Mass., it is mandated by the State that the mother is to be
    awarded the children.  I could, but at the moment do not wish to,
    state the very number, chapter, and paragraph of those State
    Guidelines.  The judge would not hold a dicussion on the matter,
    as my lawyer predicted. I was informed that this ruling would
    also become permanent at the time of the final divorce.  Custody
    of the children to the father would not even be CONSIDERED unless
    it could be established that the mother was incompetent, mentally
    unfit or dangerous FIRST.  My lawyer told me no amount of money
    or time would help, and should consider myself lucky my case was
    not heard in Middlesex county (whatever that means).
    
      Last week it was finally ruled that I was under permanent
    "visitation-rights" every odd weekend from 10:00 Sat - 5:00 Sun.
    
      The thought that I would not be with my boys every day, to watch
    them grow and mature, and to give them values, skills and knowledge
    to help them survive and prosper in this world is almost more than
    I can stand.  
    
      The worst thought is they might "forget me", and I will just 
    become a sometime visitor that was once their father.
    
       But the law does not consider this. The law is the law. Period.
    
                              Ron
    
    
    

    Ron,
    
    I would be interested in the citation in the law.  I didn't realize
    that custody rights are managed so explicitly.  Have there ever
    been any challenges to the law?  What else can you tell me?

         Did Mass. pass a state version of the ERA? If so it sounds
    like this awarding custody to the wife with out even a hearing would
    be concidered a sexual discrimination. As such the state supreme
    court might find the regulations on this in conflict. It probably
    would not change much. They would have a hearing first then grant
    custody to the wife.

    The odds of you gaining sole custody of your children is greater
    than the odds of winning the lottery of NY, PA, and MA, all on the
    same day!
    Me:  I want custody.
    Lawyer: Forget it!
    Judge: Don't have time to talk to the father, give the kid to the
    mother.
    Welcome to the world of injustice!!
    Of course, there are those out there who will say you are whining,
    but they of course have never lost a child like you and I.
    
    Good luck!
    _been_there_and_it_still_hurts_like_hell_!

    I agree that in a divorce, the courts generally award physical custody
    of children to the mother, with the only consideration being that
    she is a woman/mother.  This is grossly unfair to the many,many
    men who would be far better at single parenting than the mother.
    The assumption that children are better nurtured by a woman, in my 
    opinion does far more harm to these children, than good. And we
    are continuing to promote stereotyped people, we are telling our
    sons and daughters, that men cannot love and care for their children
    as well as woman.  This is simply not true.
    
    I personally have seen quite a few instances where the father could
    provide a healthy, loving, financially secure home for children, far 
    better than the mother, but could not even get the chance, simply 
    because he is a man.  And I wonder why it is that a woman has to
    be proven so neglectful and unfit before he might get that chance?
    Doesn't that also put an undue burden on many women who feel they must
    live up to the expectations of a society that assumes that she should
    both want and be able to raise children alone and financially support
    them. What if she can't -- thru no lack of character, but simply
    because she doesn't have the skills?
    
    What I find especially sad is the fact that more than one
    woman I know is well aware that her children would be in a much
    better atmosphere if they were living with their father, but the
    stigma of having given-up her children made that arrangement impossible
    for her to even consider.  Regardless of the fact that not every
    person is capable of handling the very difficult role of single
    parenting, we as a society tend accept a man that can't handle it,
    but are very harsh in judging a woman that can't.  
    
    The feminist movement has brought about many positive changes for
    both men and woman, but I believe that we still have a long way
    to go in accepting and promoting people to be people first.  When
    the time comes when the merits of judging who should be the primary
    caretaker of children of divorce, when this cannot be decided equitably
    by the parents, is based only on who can provide the best quidance,
    family life, love, discipline, education, role model, food and shelter,
    and yes, even material comforts, than the best interest of the children
    will be served, and ultimitely society.
                                  
    Sandie

    I have read a lot in the three conferences about child custody and
    fathers who want to have a significant role in raising their children
    after a divorce.  
    
    What I have not seen is a clear picture as to why the mother has
    traditionally been given custody.
    
    I think my generation started writing the book on divorce and child
    custody.  My children's father left them in 1971 and has seen them
    eight times since then.  He was not interested, nor did he feel
    it was his responsibility to have a part in their upbringing.  He
    provided the financial support degreed by the court (based on doctored
    documents stating his financial worth and income) and that is all.
    Many men that married in the 50's did not see themselves as a child
    caretakers and they did not choose to be one.  During the 50's and early
    60's women began working outside of the home in large numbers and
    although the men appreciated the extra income there was little
    change in the division of responsibility around the home.
    
    It appears to me that the young fathers of today suffer from their
    predecessors attitudes more than the attitude of the courts.  
    
    I agree that the attitude of the court is unjust...but I did want
    to add my opinion on how this attitude developed.
                                                     

    Just my own experience with divorce and child custody.
    
    I was divorced in 1980; our only child, a daughter was nine at
    the time.  There was no question as to her custody, she stayed with
    me.  Two years ago at age 14 she requested to live with her father.
    We had a good relationship, never had the problems with her of
    drugs or anything of a serious nature; I knew she missed him.  I
    had no problem in letting her leave, knew she was going into a good
    environment and would have the proper guidance.
    
    But what amazed me has been the many comments from friends and
    relatives.  How could you let her leave!!!  Made me feel like I
    was an unfit mother - and that he was the enemy.
    
    I have always felt that he was also her parent and that she loved
    him as much as me, and he could give her the same care and love
    as I.  She has been living with him for 2 years now, 1000 miles
    away in Florida, she's well and happy, visits here twice a year,
    we're still in close contact by phone.  When she's ready for
    college, she would like to come back.
    
    But it seems to be the general concensus, from what I went through,
    that only mothers can give the proper care, and children should
    *always* be with the mother.  I disagree heartily.  The bitterness
    in divorce should dissolve when dealing with the children for their
    own best well-being and happiness.  It has worked for us.

    .6-- Very well said!!
    .8-- A situation like yours is a glimmer of hope for many men!!
    
    STIGMA -- noun... A mark or token of shame and disgrace. Amer. Her.
    
    The two above replies have given some very valid reasons why the
    precedent is to give custody to the mother.  Now the 64K question
    is, how do we overcome this?  What can be done, in a constructive
    way?  Too much is said and not enough is done.  Does anyone know
    of any cases, where the father has had to fight for custody and
    won?  What is the latest in the Lalonde case?
    
    Mean Gene!

 re .3
  Sir,
    Here is the info you asked for;

            CHILD  SUPPORT  GUIDELINES

       Governor's  Council  Office
       The  Trial  Court
       Office of Chief Administrative Justice

       Prov. G.L  c.211B

       Effective  May 1, 1987
  
    Good luck to you in your efforts, and sincerly hope your
situation turns out for the better.
                                           Ron

    RE: .8
    Its refreshing to hear such a positive attitude. Divorce should
    not mandate that the children learn to hate their father simply because
    the two of you divorce. 
    
    Too bad the family court has no appeal process which gives the judge
    the power to determine family life without review. This is insane
    for the simple reason that they are not held accountable for their
    decisions. This process is abused to the extent of arrogance.
    
    ANY women who uses her position as the mother to destroy the loving
    relationships with our children out of spite is not worth much as
    a mother....quite a parodox...In real terms, any delibrate behavior
    that is not in the best interest of the child should be considered
    abuse (neglect is abuse). I have seen cases (friends) in which the
    overwhelming emotion of the mother is to wreck havoc on their now
    former spouse. 
    
    My grandparents fought over me in court and lost based on the courts
    decision that "children belong to their mother". I can assure you
    now that the courts decision was NOT in my best interest..but more
    in line with the textbook decision. I wish the system had more concern
    for the best interest of the child. If they considered the childs
    welfare (health), they would not allow the mother to severe the
    father from his family UNLESS it was not in their best interest.
    There are plenty of good fathers out there who cannot give the
    nurturing that the child needs because the mother can't handle her
    own failure (we forget that the failure is shared)

    Didn't mean to ramble but some of us out there wish the courts could
    see what actually happens when they make those courtroom decisions.
    
    For any of you fathers who are experiencing this problem, take solice
    in the fact that we do grow up and learn the truth.
    
    Bob_who_missed_his_dad

    Bob,
    
    Did I read correctly.  There is no appeal process AT ALL for disputes
    settled by family law?  That seems to violate my rights to due process.
    
    Gene,
    
    What can be done...I've thought of three alternatives based on what
    I've discovered.  All of them require a significant investment of
    political activism and cash.  Two constitute judicial challenges,
    the other constitutes a legislative challenge.  Here they are...
                                                   
    1.	Someone files for a settlement with the presumption that the
    breakdown is in the marriage relationship, not in the parenting
    relationship.   This suggests that both parents should maintain
    an active, legally, financially and interpersonally, role in the
    lives of the children.  If the judge found otherwise, the claimants
    could appeal on the basis of violation (probably in federal appeals
    court or some such jurisdiction) of civil right along the lines
    of the sexual discrimination suits that are brought against employers,
    ets.
    
    2.	Bring a class action sexual discrimination suit against
    Massachussetts on two grounds.  First, if there is no appeal process, then
    your rights to due process have been violated.  Second if in     
    the dispensation of justice, the family courts and or legislature   
    can be found to be supporting sexual discrimination, per se i.e.
    as employers can be found to discriminate on the basis of
    statistics, then you can force a change in practice on that basis.
    
    3.	A legislative reform initiative by forming a lobby of fathers
    (translated to mean registered, donating voters) which puts in place
    a new set of laws which give fathers equal nuturing footing with
    mothers (current research, the only research, supports this as most
    beneficial for children, ie the conventional/traditional wisdom
    is woefully in error.)  This probably will not change child support
    guideline, since the state has a vested interest in keeping any
    and all folks out of subsidy programs, however the state should
    be able to see the benefit since there seems to be a correlation
    between financial support and participation in child rearing.  I
    suspect that there might be an odd collection of political groups
    interested in supporting this sort of thing including NOW.
    
    Those are the only ideas I've been able to muster.  They're all
    formidable, but they are probably worth the effort for our children
    since succeeding would free them from the shackles of the current
    social/judicial system.
    
    Craig

    Re .11
    
    There is just so much bitterness between parents in a divorce, and
    most of the time they seem to use the children to get back at each
    other, from what I've seen, they're not thinking about the kids
    but themselves.  
    
    In my case, I could have seen reason to be bitter; I didn't want
    the divorce, he did, he had been seeing someone for some months.
    
    I had help from friends and family in getting my life back together,
    putting the past behind and not dwelling on it, eventually the
    feelings of both love and hate for him left and I could deal with
    him in a positive way regarding anything that concerned our daughter.
    
    Anyway, I'm happy with myself for the way I handled the situation
    and to see that all has turned out so well.  Makes me feel lilke
    a mature adult:-)
    
    Rosemary
    

    For fathers with divorce/custody problems, I have reproduced the 
    application form for F.A.I.R., (Fathers' Advocacy Information 
    Referral) a non-profit fathers' advocacy group.  Presumably, the group 
    supports a variety of resources and activities including: research, 
    expert witnesses, lobbying, networks of social workers and attorneys, 
    newsletter, insurance, etc.  I cannot attest to the quality of the 
    organization.  I just sent in my $50, and I will report on my 
    satisfaction with the organization.  Does anyone have any experience 
    with this or other such organizations?

                                   F.A.I.R.
                       The National Fathers Organization
                          VEPCO Office Bldg., Box 389
                               Camden, DE  19934
                                 800-722-FAIR
                                 302-697-2026
    
    
    ( )  COUNT ME IN!  Here's my $50 for MEMBERSHIP FOR ONE FULL YEAR which 
         includes access to F.A.I.R. services and subscription to the 
         monthly newsletter. (Complete entire application)
    
    ( )  I Care!  Here's my $20 for a one year subscription to F.A.I.R.'s 
         monthly newsletter.  (Complete application to dotted line)
    
    
                            MEMBERSHIP APPLICATION
                                (Please Print)
    
    Name:______________________________________  Date:__________________
    Address:___________________________________  Age:___________________
    ____________________________  Zip:_________  County:________________
    Home Phone:_____________________   Work Phone:______________________
    Occupation:_________________________________________________________
    
    ....................................................................
    
    Marital Status:
    
         1( ) Single (Never Married)        4( )Married (Never Divorced)
         2( ) Legally Separated             5( )Divorced & Remarried
         3( ) Separated	                    6( )Divorced
    
    Who wanted to break up the relationship?
    
         1( ) Myself	          2( ) The Mother          3( ) Both
    
    How did you learn about F.A.I.R.?
    
          ( ) Paper	           ( ) Radio                ( ) TV
          ( ) Friend	           ( ) Other____________________________
    
    Children:
                   	SEX                 AGE
    
                   	(M) (F)             _____
                   	(M) (F)             _____
                   	(M) (F)             _____
                   	(M) (F)             _____
    
    Who has custody of your child(ren)?
    
         1( ) Myself	2( ) The Mother     3( ) Joint     4( )Other
    
    Have you ever been denied visitation by the children's mother?
    
                   	( ) Yes             ( ) No
    
    Have you ever withheld child support because you were unable to visit 
    your child(ren)?
    
                   	( ) Yes             ( ) No
    

    I have expressed many ideas about Child Support and Child Custody.
    
    My suggestion to men who might want to change the laws is that they
    seek the support of women like myself.
    
    The current law that assesses a percentage of a non-custodial parents
    income toward child support can work to the advantage of the
    non-custodial parent.  The parent can doctor their income as my
    ex-husband did and report lower wages than he actually received.
    He was in construction and his business was run out of his home.
    He was able to deduct his house payment, phone bill, car payment.
    In addition he did not report his whole income.  In order to prove
    this I would have had to hire a detective at $200 a day.  As custodial
    parent I could not tell my landlord, nor the grocery store that
    I only made a certain income and therefore lower my rent or grocery
    bill.  I HAD TO WORK TWO OR THREE JOBS.  If I had the time or energy
    I would sue my ex based on the fact that he still owes me for his
    portion of the children's expenses he could not 'afford' when they
    were growing up.
    
    My ex also chose to move to Virginia and did not contribute to the
    emotional support of the children.  I think we need to think about
    the value of emotional support and encourage divorced parents to
    maintain and encourage relationships between the non-custodial parent
    and the children.  Custodial parents should have to petition the
    court to move out of the jurisdiction of the court and the home
    of the non-custodial parent.  Likewise a non-custodial parent should
    be given credit for the time spent with the child.  A non-custodial
    parent that takes his children every weekend should not have the
    same financial liability as a non-custodial parent who lives in
    another state and rarely, if ever sees the child.
    
    To sum things up....don't forget their are many women who have found
    the current laws do not work in their favor....any move to change
    the laws would be more successful if they were included in any
    movement.
    
    The population of this file (professional men with fairly decent
    incomes) is naturally going to show unfairness towards men.  But
    women who were married to men with irregular incomes such as
    construction workers are a natural ally of the professional man.

    re:.15
    
    I agree.  "What's good for the goose is good for the gander."  The
    reverse holds true too.  Family law reform would go a long way toward
    assuring the financial and emotional support of all people involved
    in a divorce, which BTW experts consider a family reorganization
    process rather than a disintegration process. (And we DECies know
    all about reorganization.)
    
    It just seems that the courts should treat the breakdown of the
    relationship between the husband and wife as separate and discrete
    from each party's relationship to the child(ren).  In other words,
    the law would say something like:
    
    "Just because you folks can't relate does not terminate your individual
    responsibilities for the emotional, physical and financial support
    of your children.  You must give compelling evidence why you or
    your former spouse should be relieved of parenting responsibility."
    
    This translates into a presumption on the courts part of joint legal
    and shared physical custody where there had better be some pretty
    damn good reasons for considering alternative arrangements (i.e.
    child abuse, abandonment, disabilities).
    
    Then the problems become pragmatic:  In the area of finance, its
    support, alimony, etc. can be calculated based upon formulas (This
    presumes that people are honest. Law cannot prevent fraud and
    dishonesty it can only set punishments.)  In the area of residence,
    it become a pragmatic problem which usually revolves around the
    school year, vacations and holidays.  However, on net, kids should
    be given as much latitude as early as possible to spend time where
    they want.  They didn't create the problem, they are only having
    to accommodate the consequences.
    
    I also think that the law should compel divorcing parties to go
    through mediation and or arbitration.  This is the practice in several
    states.
    
    Two other tangential yet important components of a good family law
    package would include something to guarantee good daycare and
    comparable worth compensation which would raise the earning capacity
    of women to that of men.  The Massachusetts' bureaucracy around
    daycare makes it virtually impossible to establish run the businesses
    profitably or to develop any economies of scale.
    
    Finally, making child support NON TAXABLE to the father or the mother
    would solve alot of non support problems.
    
    Well, that's just a rough outline.  Does anyone else have some ideas?
    
    Craig
         

    One problem with making it Non Taxable to either parent.
    
    Non-divorced parents don't get a tax break for the money they spend
    on their children.  Why give divorced parents an added advantage?
    
    On the other hand, the person paying the most toward the support
    of the children should get to take the children as tax exemptions.
    
    The problem here is accounting.  You can't have *both* people claiming
    the children on their returns.  In fact, accounting for money spent
    on the children would eliminate the problem voiced by several of
    the men that their child support money is not being used for the
    children.
    
    Elizabeth

    re. .17
    
    I believe the question was how does a man get custody of his kids,
    not financial deductions.  
    
    I have custody of one of my children the other chose to live with
    his mom, and she also chose him.  I believe mediation worked for
    us in the case of where the children go.  It helps also when you
    can provide a time frame for the kids that your former cannot and
    a daycare is not practical.  For instance - my X worked at night
    and could not assume responsibility of the children during that
    time frame - it was practical for me to take that on.  Later (now)
    one of my kids has to catch a late cab for school - before her work
    time begins and I have Flex time so I fill this in and have the
    benefit of custody.
    
    Sometimes you have to work at it but if you really want it you can
    find the times when custody can work for you.  There are a few family
    services people (suprisingly) who work for the benefit of both parents
    and not just the mothers....(i know its about the kids)...Dads are
    important too, and dads can give better parenting than daycares
    or other alternatives...work in tune with the system not against
    it, it's big and you wont win if you work against it - there are
    loop holes and ways to make things work.
    
    If you can avoid it stay away from the judges, work with family
    srvices, dont get involved with the new child support guide lines
    if you can avoid it.
    
    Good Luck....If I can help contact me at 261-3636.
    
    
    Jim Melanson
    

    I am glad it works out in some cases, but I think most men would
    agree that the simple fact of the matter is:  If you want to live
    with your children and be involved with them on a daily basis, you
    will continue to be married to your wife and will live with her,
    whether you love her or not.  You WILL DO whatever it takes to keep
    her happy and willing to continue the relationship.  Period!
    	There are many forms of abuse, and I have seen some men put
    up with incredible emotional abuse for this very reason.
    	I saw a movie in which Farrah Fawcit played the role of a woman
    physically abused by her husband who would not leave him because
    she believed his threat that if she were to leave him, he would
    hunt her down and take the children.  What kept her in the relationship
    wasn't the fear of phsically abuse, but the fear of losing her
    children.  For men this is a reality carefully enacted by the courts.
    
    DRC
    

    
    re: .4
    
       Though this reply is nine months late, I wish to say that the 
    Senate Judiciary Committee last month handed down a study indicating
    that there is a gender bias in divorce cases against men.  ( Mass. )
    
       This will not help me or any other men who suffered such bias but
    wish to point out that you indeed hit the nail on the head.

	Some assistance, please.

	I'm currently married with two kids (girl/12 & boy/8), want out
	of my marriage of 15 years and am scared to death.

	Talked to a lawyer last year about a divorce and full-time 
	child custody (I'm a man) and was told "Oh sure, Colorado's very
	good at that and we can get the dad custody in about 50% of the
	cases.  Seemed like such a blatant lie I never went back and
	dropped the matter, tried to work it all out, etc.

	Who can I talk to in Colorado Springs (preferrably) to find out
	some of my rights regarding custody, how old the children must
	be to choose what parent they want to live with?

	Any and all suggestions are most welcome.  I can be reached at the
	above node::name or DTN 522-2473 (preferrably the first).

	Thank you,

	AA

    Sounds like your lawyer's an optimist, if you ask me.  
    
    		Steve

>    Sounds like your lawyer's an optimist, if you ask me.  
 
	Or a liar, Steve.  I've not much experience with lawyers but
	seemingly, the longer a case can be tied up, the more $s each
	side stands to make.  I later called this lawyer and told him 
	I decided to hold off.

	I don't want to hear what I want only to be trashed in court.
	I'd prefer to hear the facts, etc. so I can make a sound decision 
	based on those facts.  Too, I'm aware that each case will be different
	and all previous facts are somewhat subjective.

	AA

I suggest you contact support organizations for men in your situation.
Two such are F.A.I.R and "Fathers United for Equal Justice".  I think there
are notes elswehere in this conference with contact info.

I would also suggest, for the sake of your children, that you not approach
this as a battle.  You may well be able to come up with a mutually
satisfactory arrangement that leaves your children relatively unscathed.
(I say "relatively" - it's impossible to avoid some ill effects.)

It is true that in contested custody battles, the mother wins more than
90% of the time.  If you love your children, and want to remain an integral
part of their lives, consider options other than a battle for full custody.

				Steve

    I agree that attorneys looking for business will tend to make grossly
    over-optimistic predictions. In Massachusetts, we received extremely
    well-informed and disinterested opinions from the Family Court social
    worker. These people spend years engaged in divorce litigation and the
    aftermath. If you can get one to talk to you, it will be a dose of
    reality (with luck).
    
    Re not treating it as a battle: my brother and his wife agreed to agree
    on terms, then bring in a SINGLE attorney to implement their joint
    decision in a legal divorce agreement. It worked well: both parties are
    satisfied with the arrangement, and the acrimony (and fall-out with the
    kids) was minimal. They also saved a fortune in legal fees!
    
    Best of luck - Hoyt

Re: .25

Be aware that sharing a lawyer is often not allowed; the courts may
take this as a conflict of interest (too bad, this implies that it's
an adversary situation).  But if the details are all agreed to beforehand,
lawyer costs will be minimal, especially if there is no need for
court appearances.

					Steve

    
    
         To get a look at the otherside. I went to court in August of
     90 to fight for custody of my 9 year old son and WON. It was a
     real tough thing to do. We had a Female Judge who although a 9
     year old is seldom asked to she wanted to talk to my Son. This was in
     our second court day. After talking to him we went back into the
     Court Room and she stated she could not make a decision on what
     my Son had said. We were rescheduled for a third day. This was the
     big fight. The Judge took over and wouldn't even let the Lawyers 
     talk. She went back and forth asking question after question. When
     she was all done I thought I was doomed to lose. When she came
     back with a decision in my favor I almost lost it right in the Court
     Room. My ex-wife went bonkers. Oh yeah one more thing I could have
     made her pay Child Support but waived the right. I figured I had won
     enough.
                              Signed,
                              One very happy Father

	Thanks to all so far.

	I've skimmed the topics that I thought would deal with the
	divorce issue, father's rights, etc. and will call FAIR this
	morning.  It may be some time before I can tap their resources
	as our finances have been trashed by a certain party.  I need to
	get them squared away prior to making any moves, I guess ... sort
	of a basket case about now.  (What's the graphics for a face like
	that?)
	
	The "90% of all divorces end with the woman getting custody"
	scares me.  Does this account for all those not contested by
	the male in addition to those that are?  Just curious if the
	numbers may be better than they appear on the surface.

	Since I'm the one who will have to initiate any actions, I feel
	that I'm setting out to cut my throat.  :-(

	AA

I think the figure goes up to 95% if you included uncontested cases.  FAIR
will have more data.  The odds are far from even, but fathers DO have a
slightly better chance nowadays than in the past.  Still, you may find you
need to prove the mother is unfit in order to gain custody.  Fathers are
still widely viewed as incompetent parents.

			Steve

    I know a fellow whose attorney advised him: "She hasn't filed papers
    yet so why don't you pack up the kids and whatever and move to
    Georgia, Mississippi, or Alabama.  The judges down their wipe their
    butts with court papers from up here."
    
    I don't think it's very good advice but if I was desperate ...
    
    ed

    there is a conference near you that is quite helpful.
    
    CSC32::NON_CUSTODIAL_PARENTS
    
    good luck,
    
    tony

I have a great deal of experience in this area because I went through it and it
took 2 years.  My ex-wife was in the hospital twice for drug and alcohol 
addiction and when her lawyer got in court he said "my client had a little
problem with foreign substances and she wants custody of her daughter now.".
Imagine that kind of audacity, and then he had the nerve to tell me that he was
only looking out for the child.  Right..  If you believe that one from any of
them send me a note, I'd like to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge.

I hired a private detective to get the goods on her and report it to the police
so that she was arrested several times before we got to court.  I then cut out
all of the newspaper articles for her days in court and her arrests and had
them in my hand when I went to court.  I then sat next to her lawyer and showed
him what I was going to present in court if they didn't agree to give me custody
with no visitations for her unless she could prove to the court that she was
completely free from drug and alcohol addiction.  Of course I knew she would
never go back to court.  She finally left the state and I am free.  The total
cost was about $6,000.00 for lawyers, private detectives, and long range camera
lenses, the loss of my house to foreclosure because she wouldn't agree to sell
the house, loss of my credit, and a bill from the IRS for about $74,000.00
because she spent the money for 4 years of tax returns without ever sending in
the returns.

To tell you the truth, if you can get out with joint custody and your wife is
normal and earns about the same money as you.  Let her have the kids.  If she's
not normal, it's the old saying "pay me now or pay me later".  You have to weigh
the cost of ensuring that you get custody against the cost of child support for
the next ten years, and if you choose this route then go the courthouse and get
a copy of the child support papers with the formula on the back.

I say take the kids and go to the Cayman Islands.  They can't touch you there.




Regards,
#($*&%^@($@(*&#

     <<< TURRIS::TURRIS$DUA18:[NOTES$LIBRARY]EASYNET_CONFERENCES.NOTE;4 >>>
                       -< EasyNet Conference Directory >-
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Note 2715.5*              Non-Custodial Parents Issues                    5 of 5
CSC32::K_JACKSON "First Things First!"               10 lines  21-JAN-1991 22:00
                      -< Non-Custodial Parents has moved >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


	The NON-CUSTODIAL PARENTS Notes conference has been moved to
	{LDYBUG,SPIDER}::NON_CUSTODIAL_PARENTS.

	The SET NOTE/CONFERENCE has been modified to reflect the
	new home.


	Kenn

>                      <<< Note 177.32 by MILPND::CIOFFI >>>
>                        -< Single father with custody >->

	I've heard a few horror stories and I am amazed a what can and
	does go on in a custody battle and what rights a father apparently
	doesn't have.

	Although I won't trash my wife here, her having sole custody (or
	even half-time or better, etc.) is, in my opinion, not good for the 
	kids.  It's one reason I want to get out, away ... it's tough to
	explain in writing and this isn't the place.  Besides, I doubt
	there's enough disk space. ;-)   I wouldn't have a problem with her 
	being able to spend weekends or so with them but a continual, daily
	influence without me is not the best solution.  By all aspects, she's 
	"normal" but even the kids know there's something not quite right 
	about the way they are treated ... they want out, too, to live with me 
	and start another life so to speak.

> I say take the kids and go to the Cayman Islands.  They can't touch you there.

	It's truly a bitch as I've got 11 good years with this fine company
	and can't see me throwing that away to grab the kids and run.  I
	like it here (in Colorado Springs), have good friends and better
	prospects in my job and life.  The kids are well adjusted in school,
	have many friends and other interests I can't see picking up and 
	blasting off to parts unknown.  But, I've thought of it many times.  
	If only it was that easy.

	It's such a shame that one should have to go through this crap
	because the other won't pull their financial & emotional weight
	in a relationship.  Hell, we both made a promise to each other
	long ago and that promise (to me anyway) should extend through
	all aspects of the marriage.  That one should get reamed of
	everything he holds dear due to the other not living up to it
	is criminal.  If somebody unknown to me would put us through
	this kind of crap throughout so many years, I think the legal
	system would back up a verdict of justifiable homicide.

	AA

	I've dialed into non_custodial and talked briefly to one of the co-mods
	and will do moreso in the near future.  Gotta get some more information
	and set the stage for a future move perhaps, and that's the best I
	feel I can do for the time being.  I hate feeling as if I'm involved
	in a stinking spy flic. :-(

	Been told the "age of decision" for the kids in Colorado is 13.  Mine
	are 8 & 12 ... no quick solution there it seems.

	Thank you all again for your words of support and understanding.

One other point I forgot to make, when you get divorced and you have mutual
friends you'd be surprised at how many of them all of a sudden forget where you
live and what your phone number is because they don't want to get involved.  I
was completely abandoned by all of my friends for that very reason.  My friends
never called to go play golf with them and nobody ever comes to visit me now.
When you finally get divorced you will have a lot of time to reflect on what
will be you past life.  I look back and realize I've lost 12 years of my life.
Now I'm 38 and trying to start over.  It's real difficult.

Don't even think about father's rights.  The only rights you have in probate
court is to work and pay support for your kids with no control over where 
support money goes.

Also, I spent many days in court of the period between the time I was separated
and the time I was divorced.  I remember one instance in particular.  A man
who was divorced with 2 kids from a previous marriage, ex-wife now remarried
with new husband making good money, wearing nice clothes, living in a big house,
ex-husband now remarried with 2 kids from new marriage, living on the edge, 
loses his job, is unable to support 2 families for the time being, ex-wife says
"now I've got you", judge says "go to jail for 2 years, do not pass go, do not
collect $200".  Why then does not a married man who loses his job get sent to
jail when he can't support his 1 family?  This is of course a double standard
for men.  I'd have to say I was in court over a 2 year period about 20 times and
I did not see 1 court decision in favor of a father.

Don't let a lawyer get your hopes up, because it's pretty dismal and the lawyer
will get his fee up front.  Be very specific about what you want from marital
assets and liabilities.  Don't tell the lawyer you want all marital bills paid.
Tell him exactly what the bills are and how much each one is in writing.  Always
certified mail with a return receipt.  Keep copies of everything.  Start keeping
a diary of everyday from the time you get up until the time you go to bed.
What the kids were fed?  What kind of language was used?  How clean the house is
kept?  If you show up in court with enough evidence in your hand you can coherce
her lawyer to make a deal that you like, and whatever you do keep you evidence
to yourself until the very last moment.  Don't even show your lawyer what you've
got and by all means don't let him take your evidence after he has seen it.  I
have a sentry safe and I have 3 years worth of diaries and 2 manila folders 
stuffed with newspaper clippings about her and anybody she associated with even
if it was only a day in court for a speeding ticket.

You also might want to start buying rabbit's feet.  About 10,000 or so might
help you out, at least they will keep you warm when she throws you out of the
house.

That's a whole other issue,  watch out for restraining orders.  All she has to
do is go to a judge and tell him that she's afraid of you being in the house
and your gone, no questions asked, 2 years in jail automatically if she says you
violated the restraining order.


Beware the wolf in sheep's clothing.




Regards.

    177.29
    
    
    REF 90% of case women win ! 
    
    
    
    
    The only advice I feel I am qualified to give is to look on the
    postitive side and consider yourself as one of the 10 % that may win !
    
    
    Keep ya chin up !
    
    Tracie.

	A quick update on my/our situation from .28 (or so, I think .... )

	My wife has agreed to move out of the house, leaving me with
	custody of the two kids.  She won't dispute this custody in
	court nor the divorce itself.

	We have, through these past couple of months agreed to be adult
	about the whole thing, etc.  My hope is that we can be better friends
	separated than we ever could while together.  We've got a good
	start ...

	The kids are doing as well as can be through such a situation.

	I am amazed and now feel myself slipping.

	Now that the hard part is over with (the convincing, etc.), I find 
	myself feeling so sorry for my wife ... she has very little income,
	will be w/out that daily contact with the kids, etc. ... I'm
	bummin'  :-(  I plan to give her $ to get started in her appartment,	
	etc. and to help out as I'm able.  Oh hell, I love the lady but at
	the same time, we seem not to be able to have what I'd call a
	good relationship ..... to say the least .....

	Here's a rub.

	She's still living with me & the kids and has little $ to get
	into another home.  I've just the scoots to pay the lawyer and
	get the divorce proceedings started _or_ to help her w/$ to get
	into her own place.

	Got any advice?  Pay the lawyer/push the button to get it going
	now or get her out of the house first?  Using the scoots for the
	lawyer for her home will push out starting the proceedings another 
	month at least.

	AA (elated & bummed ... I must be nuts!)

 If it were me, I'd be getting the lawyer started. Who knows when she might
decide not to be so cooperative? Put the kids first (IMO).

    
     AA
    
     I just recently filed my own papers and found the clerks to be real
    helpful in telling me what did and didn't need to be filled out. If
    your split is going to be amicable and you already have decided on
    devision of property, support, bills, etc., you can save some money by
    filing yourself. The packet is available for around $40 bucks at a
    place called The Ink Spot, which is across the street from the county
    courthouse. The filing fee is $88 after you get everything filled out.
    
    Feel free to drop me a line if you have any questions.
    
    Tony
     

    Re: .39
    
    If children are involved, pay the money and hire a lawyer.  It will
    save you much more (money and aggravation) in the end.
    
    			Steve

    I agree with Steve... do it right, the first time.
    
    And, AA, be prepared for an emotional roller coaster.  I would like to
    suggest you get some help (I had good luck with EAP) to try to
    stabilize your feelings.  
    
    good luck, and God bless.
    
    tony

>    I agree with Steve... do it right, the first time.
    
	Thanks on the self-filing papers but I do believe that I'll just
	cross every T and dot all those Is my lawyer can find.  I don't
	care to have this coming back at me at any time in the future.

>    And, AA, be prepared for an emotional roller coaster. 

	Too late.  :-)  One's emotions do run the gamut during these
	times.  Think I've gone through every one; guilt, elation, hate,
	love, ready to cross women off the list forever (a long time!)
	to wanting to get involved with another immediately and get on with
	business.

	Luckily, I've come (somewhat) to my senses and won't cross off
	the ladies (I truly love 'em) and don't dare get into another
	situation for some time.  Gotta let the emotional stew wear off
	for a while till I'm ready for that.

	AA

My ex-wife said the same thing, next thing I knew the police were at my door
after she didn't come home one night and they threw me out of my house with
my daughter.

I thought the same thing, that I would give her whatever I could to help her
get by as long as she wasn't living with someone and she could see our 
daughter as much as possible.  After I gave her $1200.00 to get started in
an apartment, wham, I'm out, her and her boyfriend and anybody else who 
wanted some free living in my house were in.  Then came the court battles
over custody, investigation by family services/ex state police political 
appointee.

Here I am 3 years later, lost the house to foreclosure because she wouldn't
sell, bankrupt, IRS on my tail because she spent the money instead of paying
the tax bill.

Where is she?  Florida laying on the beach.  Some people say, "Well you're
lucky to have custody of your daughter." and I can agree with them to a
point but that doesn't pay the bills, that won't help to educate my daughter
and that won't get the IRS off of my back, nor will it get my house back.

I'm exhausted just thinking about the history of it all.

	Re paying for a lawyer or using that money to get your soon-to-be
	ex-SO out of the house.

	If the SO is willing to go, do that.  Re a child custody situation,
	if the other party leaves the onus will be placed on them making
	it that much more difficult to win custody.

	Promise them anything but get them out of the house if at all
	possible and the sooner the better.  They can always try to sue
	for breach of verbal contract later.

	AA

	Things progress .... :-)

	A question regarding spousal maintenance.  

	My lawyer told me that spousal maintenance is totally tax deductable.  
	My cousin (who was an enrolled agent for the IRS) says that only when 
	the SM is indeterminant is it deductable at all and lawyers don't know 
	tax laws, etc.

	Indeterminant is a situation that the SM is paid for an, of course,
	indeterminant amount of time such as in "until she remarrys" or
	"she dies" or "gets a good job and can support herself," etc. ...
	open-ended as far as the time period goes.

	Determinant is "$300/mo for 3 years" ... a set time period and amount,
	etc.

	The cuz says it's very difficult to be able to write off your SM
	if the payments are under 10 years.

	I've been trying to get ahold of the IRS to clarify but their
	phone line seems to be tied up this time of year. ;-)

	Anyone familiar with the skinny on this?

	AA

       Being in the whole my$elf, what you want to read is tax
       publication # 5??, "blah blah for Divorced and Separated blah
       blah".  I can't remember the numbers, but I'll look them up at
       home tonight.

       I don't remember the wording, but alimony/separate maintenance is
       deductible and is defined something like:

           All funds paid in cash to the separated or former spouse
           or to a third party for the benefit of a separated or former
           spouse are considered alimony except:
               (1) payments specifically ordered by the divorce court
                   as child support
               (2) lump sum payments ordered by the divorce court
                   as ... (something about interest in mutual property
                   like her share of the house, car or stocks)
               ......
               (n) blah blah

       Basically, so far as I understand the document, while you are NOT
       LIVING TOGETHER, any money you give her that is not child
       support, and is not her share of the xxx, is alimony and
       deductible.  Examples for me last year were medical insurance,
       electricity, heat, etc ... but not the mortgage because {ha ha},
       I am still a part owner in the house even though I don't live there.


       Richard

	Thanks, Richard.  Finally did get ahold of the IRS and a (seemingly)
	knowledgeable and helpful kinda guy who is sending out pubs 504 &
	17 which deal with the issue.  Pub 504 is apparently the one that 
	details and addresses the "alimony" issue.

	According to the nice man, any alimony (or spousal maintenance -
	same thing to IRS) listed as such is fully deductable.  It's when you
	start getting into the house payments, etc. that the debate begins
	as to if you can deduct or not.  And, yup, sounds like you can't deduct
	any of those house payments.

	AA

	and BTW, when I first decided to go for the divorce, etc., I contacted
	FAIR (recording took my info) and have as yet to hear from them.
	It musta been back towards the end of January.  Good thing I didn't
	need anything.

       
       Good luck