Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    It's funny I posed almost the same question last nite to a few people.
    
    Doesn't it make you feel wierded out when you see some woman that
    you vaguely recollect as knowing and she rushes forward and hugs
    the stuffin out of you???????

    I touch _everyone_, sometimes I feel threatening and stop immediately,
    but the results of my own informal survey, spanning these 31 years,
    disclose that _most_ people like to be touched.  Is this why handshakes
    were developed?
    
    Hugs are another matter.  I hug my friends, people who act like
    they could use a hug.  Women who drape themselves on you 'like a
    cheap suit' _are_ sortof objectionable.
    
    Jeff

    
    
    For what it's worth, I read once that handshakes stem from
    medieval days when men presented their palms to demonstrate
    that they were not holding weapons.  It evolved down through
    the years to the present day handshake.
    
    I personally still think it's a nice way to greet someone, male
    or female, without being threatening or sexual.
    
    I don't mind a touch on the arm or shoulder from co-workers or
    acquaintances but I prefer hugs to be from friends and family.
    
    Vicki

	
    
    	The following was taken from a magazine article that I read
    	recently.... but I have forgotten which magazine......
    
	"The bottom line is this:  we---both men and women---miss 
	sensual touch.  We confuse it with sexual intercourse and
	so we deny it's casual use.  And then, ironically, we separate
	it from sexual touch, which depends on sensuality for its
	goodness.
	
	Too many people interpret every sensually loving touch as an 
	invitation to copulate.  Bodies hunger for holding as a 
	sensation quite apart from genital penetration. 
	The need to be held is so compelling for some women that they
	have intercourse when they may not really want it in exchange
	for being held. 

	When you know yourself you'll know when your body and soul need
	to be touched.  What feels like sadness can simply be your
	disguised need to be held; what feels like hunger or fatigue can
	be your disguised wish for lovemaking."             
                                                             

		I feel like part of the problem with people who feel
    threatened when touched is what is stated in the paragraph above....
    some people are just not comfortable with themselves...and those
    feelings of needing human touch/contact but not necessarily sex.
    
    
    	I'm a very touching person.  Love to hug.... and I have not
    found too much rejection to it in the work place altho I'm careful
    about who it is that I touch or hug as I know who appreciates my
    hugs/touches and who doesn't!  At home, hugs are very common with
    my kids.  My current SO is not a very touching person, but I'm trying
    to help him feel more comfortable with that without feeling threatened.
    
    	Hugs, touching are vital to our health and well-being.  I think
    that a lot of times the reason for the touching/hugging is
    mis-interpreted to imply that sex is wanted when it really isn't.
    But it's hard to communicate that fact to some people who interpret
    any touch/hug as a request for sex . . . . .
    
    	Myra

    re .4 Great note Myra.
    
    But what about the men who do use hugs/touching as a meter for a
    woman's potential sexual acceptance level?
    How do you feel about them?
    

    
    Kerry, I'm not sure I follow your thinking?!  Are you talking about
    men who try to *read* whether or not I want to have sex with them
    by my actions rather than my words.?  If so, I don't appreciate
    that.  You know what they say about people who *assume*.... What
    has happened to communication>??  If I'm dating a mature man who
    is interested in having sex with me, then why can't we discuss it
    openly rather than have him act like a teen-ager and try to gauge
    my willingness by my actions??  Don't assume I want sex because
    I hug you.  And I won't assume that the man wants sex just because
    of his actions.  Let's get some communication going and have a 
    mature relationship. 
    
    	Myra

    I enjoy being touched/hugged by most women.
    I don't enjoy being touched/hugged by most men.
    
    It must be bedtime, my notes are getting shorter and shorter.
    
    Spence

re .6:

Discus having sex? Whatever happened to romance and passion? I would even
venture to suggest that to some it would be a turnoff!

Words can also be just as misleading as body language unless it goes like 
this:-

Man:	I'd really like to make love to you.
Woman:	Make love! You mean 'have sex'!
Man:	No, I meant what I said.
Woman:	You just want my body, you don't respect me as a person.
Man:	Of course I respect you but I also want your body.
Woman:	Do you really?
Man:	Yea, sure!
....
...much more persuasive argument...
....
Woman:	OK then.
Man:	Thats funny I seem to have gone right off the idea.

I am not suprised!

Dave.

re .10:

>    There *are* actually pleasant ways to talk about making love that
>    are not a turnoff to either person.  Some rather interesting
>    examples come to mind, in fact, but I won't post them here.
    
Help! I NEED examples. I am obviously not doing this right.

Dave.

    I agree with Mr. Eagle for once.....
    can the corn and talk the talk monsieur googly and Ms nexus.....
    
    And Myra there are those inconsiderate selfless jerks in the world
    (yes I'm talking about MEN) that are "all over..." women on the
    first occassion of meeting them 

re .14:

>    can the corn and talk the talk monsieur googly and Ms nexus.....
  
The pot calling the kettle black?

I had a serious point to make - that is; 'touching' is essential if you 
want to start 'love-making' and that talking about it can be a turn off.

Next.

Dave.

    re .9
>Discus having sex? Whatever happened to romance and passion? I would even
>venture to suggest that to some it would be a turnoff!
 
    I always thought that Discus were like other fish, "wham, bam, thank
    you ma'am". ;-)
          
    And, this, from the same reply:
>Words can also be just as misleading as body language...
    8-O  :-)  ;-)  8-) 
    Just having fun, now to be serious.
         
    I think that discussing sex is embarrassing and, therefore, makes
    people uncomfortable.  It took me a long to time to be able to talk
    about it without being embarrassed.  The more intimate the
    conversation, the more embarrassing it is.  I can talk about it
    with male friends and anonymously with some women (MAIL, NOTES, etc.)
    but, face to face with a woman is hard to do.  I have been married
    for 14 years and its still a little embarrassing at times.  I've
    evolved from not wanting to talk about it at all to being able to
    talk about it in most situations.  Remember the old saying "The
    first time is always the hardest".
    
    I am fortunate to have been with one woman long enough to be able
    to read her actions.  Depending on how she acts, I can tell if she
    is willing, then just a quick word or two to confirm it.  Not a
    lot of discussion involved.  For years, my wife was reading me wrong.
    We finally discussed it and fixed it.  Unfortunately, this isn't much help
    to people who are dating people they don't know well.  Of course,
    in my opinion, you wouldn't be having sex with someone you don't
    know well, but I've been out of the dating scene too long to remember.
    I'm showing my age again.
                             
    Anyway, I believe in a lot of body language mixed with a little
    dialogue for confirmation.
    
    Spence

    re.:  .14
    
    	YEP!  Kerry, I've been with some of those selfless jerks....
    But prefer people who can talk about sex rather than pawing me in
    an effort to "express" their desire to have sex with me. 
    
    re.:  .16
    
    	I guess I can't understand not being able to talk about sex.
    Especially with someone that I had been married to for 14 years.
    I'm not "knocking" you or the way you are.... just expressing my
    preference of guys who can TELL me what they want rather than 
    trying to "show" me and hope that I read their actions correctly.
    It's so hard to interpret peoples body language.  Give me English
    any time.  
    
    	My
    

    re .17
>    I guess I can't understand not being able to talk about sex.
>    Especially with someone that I had been married to for 14 years.
>    I'm not "knocking" you or the way you are....
 
    I'm not offended at all, in fact, I don't understand it either and
    I live here (inside myself).  After all these years, we talk about
    everything, but sex can sometimes become awkward and embarrassing
    to talk about.  There is just something about sex that is embarrassing
    for me to talk about.  When we 'get it on', anything goes.  I ask
    her what she likes and vice versa.  We have developed ways to talk
    around it and the point is known, but to come right out and ask
    for it seems like begging.  YEAH...that's it, I feel like I'm begging
    and that makes me uncomfortable.  For many years, I was always in
    the mood and she seemed never to be.  I almost *had* to beg for
    it.  I finally found something that she likes and now she's in the
    mood almost as much as I am, once or twice a week.  Without details,
    it concerns baby oil and rubbing her back and...use your imagination.
    Anyway, we communicate without a lot of dialogue.  After several
    years of begging, I almost gave up and seriously thought about looking
    elsewhere.  I told her how I felt and *then* we talked it out, with
    periods of smoke, and we got to the root of the problem.  Maybe
    we should have talked about it earlier, but it was too embarrassing.
    It would have saved me a lot of grief and, if we hadn't finally
    talked about it, it could very likely have ruined a perfect marriage.
    Whenever other couples are having rough times, I always tell them
    to talk it out, get it in the open, then cope with it.  Then I realize
    that I have trouble talking about sex.  Luckily, this is the only
    thing I can think of that I don't like to talk about with her.
    
    I like to hug her and she used to pull away from me.  After 15 years, 
    (OK, I'm a slow learner) she told me that she didn't like for me
    to hug her because she thought that it made me 'frisky' and that
    I wanted to have sex.  We discussed it and now I can hug her.  I *do*
    get 'frisky' but it doesn't require having sex.  I told her that
    I *always* feel 'frisky' so a hug won't matter much.  That's like
    throwing a match onto a burning building.
    
    Spence

    Gee, Spence, talking about "it" is easy!  Just turn off
    ALL the lights, and make sure you're not facing your
    partner...
    
    (actually talking about it afterwards is kinda nice....
     sort of like a curtain call complete with flowers!)
    
    

    OOO ICK, TALK ABOUT IT AFTERWARDS!!!  NEVER!!!
    
    I was taught (I don't remember who did the teaching) that you should
    talk afterwards, but not about *IT*.  To do 'it' and then roll over
    and go to sleep is messy and it gives the impression that you were
    dissatisfied.  We talk about other things, but not 'it'.  We sometimes
    comment about how much better it gets with practice, but that's
    it.  This comes from embarrassment again.  If I can't talk about
    it before, I sure can't talk about it after.
    
    she - How was that?
    me - Great!  You're like wine, you get better with age! (snicker)
    she - Yeah, practice makes perfect, huh? (snicker)
    me - You'd think we'd have it down pat after 14 years. (snicker)
    she - Who's Pat?
    me - Ha, ha, ha!  Cute!
    she - Hey, there's always room for improvement. (snicker) 
    	Think that'll hold you for a week?
    me - I guess, if I have to. (snicker)  Well, are we going skiing 
    	tomorrow or what?  I saw something in a notesfile today...
    
    Spence

re .22:

>    Honestly, it doesn't have to be a turn-off to talk before, or
>    ICKY to talk afterward (to quote Spence. :-)
    
I agree. I like being talked too even if I do get embarrassed occasionally 
it is still a turn-on. The problem is that this situation isn't mutual.

Dave.

    
    "Baby, talk dirty to me"
    
    /Bj

    re .24
    
    I hear ya!!
    
    

    re .24,.25 Add my vote.
    
    But just as there is are the two extremes of a radio melodrama,  a Shusaki
    play and then the combination in an audiovisual play,  there is also,
    concerning our topic,  what I'd call sensuo-visual communication
    (sensuo- : touch)

    I would think it rare not to be able to communicate something
    by talking that could not as well and better be sensuo-visually
    communicated.  Or maybe my analogy of a Shusaki actor is just
    too hopelessly romantic?

    Simon.

    Well, not all of us are married or in the throes of a romantic
    encounter :-(, so back to .0 for a minute:
    
    I miss touching.  When I worked in France, we all shook hands twice
    a day, once when we said hello, and once when we said goodnight.
    You'd shake your boss's hand, your tech's hand, the hand of anybody
    you knew.  The more you liked someone, the more touching was involved
    (a hand on the shoulder while the other was shaking hands).
    
    Here in the US, a handshake is a very formal thing you do with people
    you hardly know.  And it's not cool to touch another person's shoulder
    at work unless you know them _very_ well (particularly if you are
    a young woman working with a lot of men).  Since I've been in my
    lab for a while and people know me, I don't think it'd go over very
    well if I went back to shaking the hand of the people I like and
    work with.
    
    I guess my point is that we don't seem to have any way to touch
    each other that isn't excessively formal in this culture (hand-shaking)
    or excessively familiar for every-day situations (hugging).  Perhaps
    that has a lot to do with the discomfort many of us feel in touching
    people who are not family, veryvery close friends, or lovers.
    
    Lee

    Lee, you're perfectly right. And even families often don't touch
    each other!  You'd be astonished at the number of otherwise healthy,
    normal men and women who love their kids deeply but never hug them
    except when they have to wipe their faces or bandage their elbows.

    You never really outgrow the shell this puts around you, either.
    I still feel embarrassed when my brother, two years younger than
    me, sweeps me into a bear hug when I go home to visit. 
    
    --bonnie
    

    Well the group I'm in is fairly "huggy". There are a lot of people
    in my group that I greet with a hug. On the other hand, none of
    the people I hug regularly is a man... oh well.
    
    We are in California, maybe that has *something* to do with it.
    We also do a lot of things together socially. Our group is pretty
    close.
    
    	-- Charles

	Would I ever like to hug my therapist!! Squeeze my emotions
into a love cocktail. Isn't there a lady Leo B. around?

    re: .28
    
    Start a new family tradition.  
    Your brother has the right idea.
    
    Then branch out to your friends and your group.
    I can't imagine life without it at this point.  
    
    Hugs _are_ essential.
    
    Jeff
    

    I started with my own kids, since they're the ones who need it the
    most. 
    
    I can now hug one or two close friends without thinking they're
    going to interpret my touch as sexual interest. 
    
    And it does help. My family is much stronger and my friendships
    are richer.
    
    But none of this comes easily, and it's virtually impossible to reach
    out to my parents.  Hugs may be essential, but after 30-some years of
    distance, they don't change everything overnight. 
    
    --bonnie, who would like to be more open but isn't.
    

    
    I got a chance to view this issue at an Anniversary Party for Lotus
    Development Corporation.  I thought what I observed might be
    interesting  to some.  
    
    First of all, the mood was definately happy...as you might already
    suspect.  What I observed was women rushing towards each other and
    hugging, pecking on the cheek, and laughing loudly and obviously.
    Women with men were a little more reserved or should i say -alot-
    more reserved.  They were standing around, hands in pockets talking
    etc.  They were laughing too, don't get me wrong, but it was a very
    different laugh.  Men that were grouped together were very on guard...
    joking etc. without getting down to serious issues.  I did notice
    one reach back, when walking forward, to pat another guy on the
    shoulder but before he could do so a look of realization passed
    over his face and he recoiled.  I also noticed that women that were
    being joyous together were looking towards the men to see if they
    were watching.
    
    Just an observation....
    

    It's an old time macho rule, men don't hug men, least you be labeled
    unmanly, it's one of those things in the men don't cry in public
    category.  It's one of those things past down like the 10 commandments.
    It's in the male rule book - it's ok if you're celebrating a Sports
    victory, or on the playing field or something.

    
    
    	Gee, and I thought it was in "The Manly Handbook" :-)
    
    	The same book that has a picture of John Wayne whipping Margeret
    	O'Hara around (from the movie "A Big Man" I think) with the
    	caption "Dancing, as taught by The Master"
    
    							mike
    

    Re: "men not hugging men"
    
    This is one injustice that really hits home with me. I love to hug, and
    cuddle, and be physically close, but with men it has to be in private,
    hidden away. It's also much rarer, and I still feel uncomfortable with
    public displays of male-male affection (my display, not others)
    
    I'm being cheated, and I don't like it. I don't know what to do about
    it either. I hug women in public, and I cuddle children regardless of
    sex, but I can't be physically affectionate with men in public. That
    sucks. (ahem) I was raised that it's not ok, and I still have uneasy
    feelings sometimes about being physically affectionate with other men.
    It's just not fair. How can I fix this? I can't change all of society,
    and almost all of the men I know would just die (or kill me) if I
    hugged them in public. So, what can I do? 
    
    Especially, how do I avoid passing this sick attitude on to my
    children?
    
    	-- Charles

    
    The only, and I do mean "only" aversion I have to being touched,
    is when someone is touching me in an agressive manner to drive
    home an agressive point, or is trying to be intimidating.  This
    type of touching is very unwise and sometimes not too healthy.

    Wow!  Good topic!
    
    I came out of a really yucky teenage stage (years ago ;v)) and didn't
    want to *touch* anyone... ewwwwwww grose!   I really ended up hurting
    myself, because it took a long time for me to break out of that
    no-touching mode.  I wasn't even comfortable hugging a close friend
    in despair.  Now, I'm a lot better with family and friends especially.
    When you're crying and just want to hide away, nothing feels more
    warm or comforting than a hug.  Of course that's not the only time
    a hug comes in handy!
    
    My SO is a very touchy person, that's how he expresses himself.
     And that has made as least one of my girlfriends uncomfortable.
     That's a real shame, the division of touching between the sexes
    becomes pretty narrow for some folks.
    
    theresa.

    Guess I'm glad I've been slower reading back topics in MENNOTES
    than in some other conferences...if I'd read all this about discomfort
    when hugging other men I might have neglected Harris when I sent
    him back home at the airport a couple days ago.  I hugged Janet
    goodbye, I hugged Harris goodbye, I snarled at the car honking behind
    me, unloaded their bags from the trunk and beat it.
    
    Should I have taken the anonymous mole behind me as "society showing
    its disapproval of PDA" ??  Nah, I thought she was honking because
    I took too long in the unloading zone.
    
    I grew up with parents who didn't show much affection.  Children
    of midwestern farm states, both of them.  So I'm not much of a touch-
    feel reinforcement guy.  At the same time, I won't deny myself or
    my very close friends that bonding, especially at greeting or
    farewell.  I'm trying to hug more, but hey- thats for me, not to
    fight off some imaginary societal bugaboo.  Makes me feel good.
     Now, if there were only an SO to practice with! ;-)
    
    DougO
    

    I feel the same way Charles does.  I really feel that there is
    something missing in not being able to hug/touch other men.  I believe
    that touching is essential for a person's well being.  I feel deprived
    of good feelings by not being able to hug the guys, or gals for that
    matter, for fear of that action being misread.  My wife is not a touchy
    person at all, I belive it comes from her relationship with her dad
    which is not close or touchy in the least.  Hugging guys is in the
    same category as guys dancing with other guys ( a no-no), but it's
    perfectly OK of women to dance with the same sex. This stuff really 
    drives me nuts trying to understand it all.  I could go on forever
    so I'll stop for now.
    
    /ed

    I have become basically a no touch person except for my wife and son
    and occasionally hugs for relatives.  I am somewhat hung up.  Touching
    friends is so easily misread that I have learned to back away from it.
    Society is so 'paranoid'? about touching/sexuality that I consider it
    extremely risky to touch people.  Its especially risky to hug or touch
    children (except ones' own) in benign ways because of the possibility
    of misinterpretation. I stay completely away from touching children
    except my son who (at 3 years old) gets hugs and kisses. 
    
    I felt that I (and others) are losing alot because of our attitudes
    and uncertainty toward touching and sexuality.  Its an absolute mine
    field figuring out who would or wouldn't be offended in various
    situations.  So I have stopped trying to figure it out and basically
    abstain.  I am 47 years old and have watched the social touching and
    sexuality issues steadily worsen over my life time.  Some things which
    would have been ok in the 1950's would be extremely risky now.  Perhaps
    my perception has changed but I don't thats all thats changed.
    
    Jeff
    

I have, after many years, learned to touch and hug people as "appropriate" 
or when it seems right. I spent 5 years working with a Church youth group 
and in that time I made many close friends with both young men and women in 
the group, some of who I still correspond with today, 15 years later! They 
were the most open, accepting, caring, and loving group of kids I had ever 
known. (with a few exceptions, but there will always be exceptions.) From 
them I learned to trust people better, love them more openly, and hug them 
when they or I needed it. 

I obviously, as a manager, can't do that with my employees, it is neither
appropriate or called for. However, former employees and peers may be 
receptive to a friendly hug if I haven't seen them for long periods. It all 
depends on how we got along when working together, and what our 
relationship is now. I carry this out to my personal life and find there are 
many female friends whom I can hug as well. I find it a real high to know 
that I trust people and they trust me enough to share a hug or touch 
without reading any more into it other than "Glad to see you, I have missed 
you". There are also men I can hug without stigma or rejection, for many of 
the same reasons.

It is a feeling and attitude and openness that is hard to develop and takes 
a long time to break thru your mind set. I can't tell you how to develop 
it, it will happen if you are around others who are open and can share 
those feeling with you. I have had one two week class here at DEC with my 
fellow managers that experianced that same openness and caring. It made a 
world of difference and as a class, we still keep in touch and care deeply 
about each other. 

I may not be able to tell you how to find it or develop it, but once, 
found, it is a great way to live!

    Regards,

    	Vic

    I admire your ability to get in touch with your and others feelings
    Vic. It sounds as if you have managed to determine how to determine
    what appropriate touching is.   Jeff