Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    
    It's interesting that you bring up something I have been wondering
    about also.  My sample is based mainly on Single's type dances I
    frequently attend in preference to the bar scene.  I definitely
    don't feel it is un-masculine or look foolish for a man to dance,
    and to dance well.  Any guy who goes thumbs down on dancing is missing
    the chance of his life!!  Any guy who dances even half-way decently
    will attract requests for dances faster than he knows what to do
    with them (the same is true for ladies who dance well).  I'm curious
    about the place/situation you have reached your conclusion on (to
    see if it's more widespread than singles dances).
    
    Maybe what we have observed is more generally the reported situation
    that there are more single ladies in the Boston area than males
    (by ratios of 3 or 4 to 1, depending on which survey you hear).
    What I'm more curious about is if that imbalance is real or not.
    Given the number of marriages and relationships that have broken
    up in this area, if the ratio is correct, there should be a lot
    more single guys out there.  If true, it makes me wonder where are 
    all the guys from broken relationships going?
    
    					Joe

Uhh, how many feets and ankles do you have to crush and/or trip over
before you get good at it?
						gerald ford II

        My wife and I, and my parents, are involved in Contra dancing
        ("New England traditional dances"... though they live in upstate
        New York).  For various reasons, *we* usually only get out
        a few times a year, but my parents have a regular group they
        dance with every week, and we join them when we visit.
        
        That's not really the point... anyway, in most Contra/Square
        groups I've seen, it is generally the case that all of the
        "spares" are women, and in fact women often end up dancing
        together, one taking the male part.  *However*, in my parent's
        regular dance group, and in one or two others I've seen,
        it's just the other way around, and the men far outnumber
        the women.
        
        The point is that the phenomenon of women outnumbering men
        in dancing is definitely far from universal, and may well
        be much less wide-spread than it appears to casual observers.
        I wonder if anyone's ever really studied it seriously?
        
        	/dave

RE: .3

It seems that women dancing together on *any* dance floor is not an uncommon
occurrence.  This seems to be OK in our culture.  But how many times have
you seen *men* dancing together....even when they outnumber the women? 

Just something to think about...


John M.

                       
    re: .5  Dallas...I was in a club where there seemed to be 
    no partners. I felt pretty silly dancing with my friend 
    whilst those around us danced with whomever happened to be
    there. Men who are good dancers often compete with one 
    another on the dance floor -- it's a form of machismo
    anyway -- and unless their partners are particulary good
    they fade away while the guys strut their stuff.
    
    BTW -- If you're ever in Atlanta, spend a night at the
    Limelight. You'll see *everything*...
    
    
    

        .5: Actually, when I was in high school, I was a member of
        a regular weekly teen square dance club.  As usual for dances,
        it was common to have extra girls, and there was frequently
        a square (or even two) composed entirely of girls.
        
        One day we discovered that we had a number of extra *boys*,
        instead.  The more adventurous of us decided to amuse ourselves
        by trying to form our own square (after all, if the girls can do
        it, we should be able to, we thought).  We laughed ourselves
        silly trying, but really didn't do too well at it.  I guess it
        takes practise.  Anyway, I suspect that if not for the fact that
        I and three or four of the others were among the older and more
        experienced dancers in the group, we would have been too
        embarrassed to try.  Even so, we took some ragging from other
        boys (the girls thought it was great). 
        
        Perhaps the interesting observation, however, is that this
        was something highly unusual---even unique---whereas nobody
        gave a second thought to a square of girls.  Ah, well...
        things *do* change, but only very slowly...
        
        	/dave

    
    
    	When I'm in the right mood (99% of the time) you can't get
    	me OFF the dance floor. I truly love to bop until I'm completely
    	exhausted!
    
    	Men who don't dance don't know what they are missing..
    
    							mike

    Re: several
    
    It does seem to be true in our (US) society that a man dancing with
    another man brings out connotations of homosexuality. This is true
    in many other areas as well. Society frowns on the interaction of
    male friends in many areas, but doesn't even blink when it is female
    friends. Just think about the reaction that two guys would get at
    a public place if one guy got up and said to the other guy "I'm
    going to the john, want to go along?". Women do that all the time
    and no one thinks it strange. A good example of sexual stereotypes
    in society.
    
    Bob Mc
    

    
    It isn't that I mind dancing.  I'm a rotten dancer.
    
    DFW

    Square and round dancing is an easy and excellent introduction to
    dancing that can really build confidence.  I recommend it highly.
    
    As a square dancer, it was fairly common for the caller to arrange
    things so that, for a time, squares of all men or all women were
    dancing.  It is quite difficult to take the "other" role, but not
    at all embarrassing.  You are all laughing so hard you don't have
    time to be embarrassed!
    
    Round dancing is like ballroom dancing, but done under direction
    of a "cuer" and songs are choreographed with specific steps at
    specific times.  Round dancing is often taught and practiced
    along with square dancing, though for more advanced levels, the
    round dancers have separate dances just for that activity.
    
    It's amazing how graceful you'll feel after just a few lessons!
    
    					Steve

    I always wanted to learn to tap dance...

        .11:
        
        Modern Western Square Dancing (the most common kind),
        unfortunately, has very little to do with graceful dancing. The
        emphasis tends to be on memorizing thousands of obscure calls
        and being able to lumber through them to poorly chosen music on
        scratchy records and a caller with no sense of timing... that's
        why neither I nor my parents square dance any more. 
        
        This is of course not to say that there aren't graceful square
        dancers---there most definitely are---but that's not what
        most programs appear to encourage... or at least, that's how
        things were when we gave up on it.
        
        Especially in the New England area, the way to get into dancing
        is Contra dances.  They're all over, and there are a lot
        of truely fantastic callers and musicians in the area...
        and virtually all dancing is done to live music.  Contra
        dancing generally tends to be much more creative and rhythmic
        than squares, making more of fewer calls...
        
        Well, anyway, this is a bit of a tangent... I just couldn't
        read a plug for squares without thrashing right back in with
        a plug for contra dancing!  :-)
        
        	/dave

    Re: .13
    
    Dave, I certainly did not advocate square dancing at the expense
    of contra dancing.  Contras are fine too, though they are not to
    my taste.  Square dancing CAN be graceful, and good dancers are.
    My point was that western square dancing is a good introduction
    to dancing for those who think they have "two left feet", and because
    there is a lot of cross-exposure from square dancing to round dancing
    (which IS graceful) and contras (all three of which you can find
    at many square dances), it's a good choice.
    
    In any case, any of the three kinds of dancing (plus ballroom
    dancing or whatever else you can dig up) are great ways to meet
    new people, and it's cheap fun, too!
    					Steve

re: 59.12

>    I always wanted to learn to tap dance...

    .... but I kept on falling into the sink.

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh!
    
    (that's one for you, Andy)
    DFW

        .14: To avoid seeming like a bad sport, let me comment that
        I heartily second the advice to try any of the mentioned
        forms of dance: particularly as a way to meet almost uniformly
        pleasant people in a low-pressure environment.
        
        On a personal note to Steve... I used to think contra dancing
        was "not to my taste" as well, when my parents started trying
        to get me to switch... once I stopped trying to avoid liking
        it, I switched over completely.  This is, of course, not
        to say that would be true for anyone else... but there are
        enough differences in style between the forms that expectations
        can form a pretty solid barrier.
        
        	/dave

    Re: .18
    
    Dave, one can't expect everyone's tastes to match your own.  I've
    tried contra dancing, I don't like it.  I don't like cheesecake
    either, but I don't take it personally that other people do.  I
    have greatly enjoyed square and round dancing and have achieved
    a high level of personal satisfaction from those activities after
    being extremely reluctant to even try it at first.
    
    Please do not interpret my promotion of square and round dancing
    (with which I am very familiar) as a disapproval of contra dancing
    (or ballroom dancing, or folk dancing, or break dancing, or any
    other kind you care to name that I don't partake of.)  I know many
    dancers who enjoy contras and squares.
    
    					Steve

        Steve, I was merely making observations and comparisons.
        It doesn't bother me a bit if you dislike contras, and doesn't
        matter to me whether you have or ever will try them.
        
        Sorry if my observations regarding squares seemed like personal
        criticism... I certainly didn't intend it that way.  You
        recommended squares/rounds and gave some justification: I
        recommended contras, and explained why I preferred them.
        
        This exchange is getting a bit far from the subject, so let's
        just drop it, huh?
        
        	/dave

    Doesn't Reagan fund the contras? :-)

    Re.5
    
    Men dancing with men? Quite common in the all male societys that
    sprang up with the start of mining, road building, and rail road
    construction out west during the 1800's.  Also Greek men dance to
    gether often even today.
    
                             Paul
    

Women dancing seems to have been pretty common after WW-I, given
that so many men were killed (at least "across the water").

By the by, does anyone know anything about Morris Dancing?  (That's
generally done by all-male "teams", I believe, or sometimes by all-
female teams.  But let someone who knows say more...)

    There are male and female Morris dancers.
    
    Strictually ritual dances originally for pagan gods in anglo-saxon
    times, they still survive today in england and wales.
    
    I believe a version of the dances also survives in most northern
    european countries.
    
    There are several 'types' of dancers: should I dig out the
    encyclopaedia to give you all the info?

    	I believe the original note addressed the question of why men
    as a group tended to be less interested in dancing than women as
    a group.  I would like to address this from my own experience.
    
    	I worked in the New England area for about 5 years with a rock
    band running the lights and sound.  This is done from a location
    in the room that allows good visiability of the band, and generally
    of the audience and the dance floor.  Working in night clubs on
    a regular basis, I have had plenty of opportunity to see what goes
    on under a wide varity of circumstances.  
    	
    	People who come to the club in couples or mixed groups tend
    to dance freely as the mood strikes.  Generally a man does not take
    a woman to a club if he has no interest in dancing (of course there
    are exceptions).  On the other hand many people come to clubs with
    their friends of the same sex, and often groups of women will be
    sitting at the table together and groups of men will often be standing
    around the edges of the room watching the action.  With very few
    exceptions, men ask the women to dance, not vice versa.  If a man
    waits to be asked to dance, and he did not come with a mixed group
    or with a date, he will be out of luck.  Women in general do not
    ask.  As a result, the typical scene is of the man walking across
    the room to stop at a table of women to ask one of them to dance.
    Now some men are real smooth at this, they engage in a little
    conversation check out the situation pull out their best lines
    and through charm are sucessful in getting the women to dance.
    In my opinion though, this is the exception.  Most men just walk
    up and ask "Do you want to dance?"  Often the men are rejected.
    Inspite of rumors to the contrary, men are sensitive creatures too,
    and after a few rejections, they stop asking.  They often associate
    the feeling of rejection with dancing as well, and develop the attitude
    of "I just come to drink some and hear the band."  They may play
    a little pool or video games, depending on the bar, but they do
    not ask to dance.  And as has been previously noted, men are not
    comfortable dancing with each other.  Many times I have overheard
    some woman turn to another and comment on all the men standing around
    and none of them asking anyone to dance.  Now the sexist practice
    of only men asking the women to dance has a penalty for both sexes.
    Both suffer.  If a woman comes to a bar with her friends and wants
    to be left alone, there is no easy way of warding off request to
    dance in advance (other than already being with a man.)  She has
    my sympaty because she is put in the position of embarressing the
    man who asked her to dance, or dancing when she doesn't want to.
    Men don't have this problem.  On the other hand, if a particular
    woman would be willing to dance with a particular man, and he would
    like to dance and would be willing, he has no way of knowing which
    woman would dance with him other than through the process of
    elimination and the consequential rejection that goes with the process.
    (As far as "catching their eye" or something like that goes, most
    bars are noisy and smoke filled, with lots of constant movement,
    so this rarely happens, except at the bar, and most clubs comprise
    mainly of tables, with a dance floor in front of the band.)
    
    	The solution:  Rid the world of the sexist practice of only
    men asking women to dance (or go out, for that matter.)  This would
    increase the sensitivity of women to what men have to go through
    to ask, of the sensitivity of men as to how difficult it is to say
    no to someone and not hurt their feelings.
    
    How about it?  Is the world ready?
    
    DRC

/. Ian .\

    
    Re: .26
    
    	How right you are!  I spent many nights hanging around the fringes
    of clubs looking for girls to dance with when I was in school. 
    I had a simple solution: each time I got rejected I had a drink.
    Many nights were spent stumbling home.  Some of the women could
    be pretty damn cruel about the whole thing.  
    	My solution was to sign up for dance classes at the extension
    college as a single partner.  Everybody there liked to dance and
    there were plenty of women.  It gave me a chance to meet women who
    liked to dance in a non threatening situation.  Knowing how to foxtrot
    comes in handy at wedding receptions, I'm not so sure when I'll
    get to try out my tango again :^)
    	Now that I'm married my search for a dance partner has ended.
    Fortunately my wife loves to dance and we go out quite often.  Our
    main problem is finding a club with a decent dance floor.  Every
    time I see a see a guy trying to get up enough courage to ask a
    girl to dance, I'm sure glad I'm married.
                                	      =Ralph=
    	
    				

                                 
    re: .26  Excellent summary. I wonder how many women would
    endure that kind of public rejection on a regular basis? 
    
    No author has yet described how it feels during the long walk
    back to your table in front of strangers who probably watched
    you walk over in the first place. Actually I was lucky
    enough to have a 50% success rate -- not enough to make
    me too cocky yet not enough to ruin my self confidence.
    The ironic part is that while I love dancing, I married
    a wonderful woman who _hates_ bar dancing, clubs, etc.
    

{RE .0} - I don't know what you're talking about.  Usually, when I go dancing,
 it's mostly men and very few women.

Wot?  You're not talking about slam dancing?
 <_Jym_>

    --> re .23
    
    Morris dancing is a male fertility ritual performed for over 500
    years in England. The term "Morris" comes from "Moorish" and indeed
    many of the characteristic steps can be traced down through France
    and Spain to North Africa.
    
    Morris Dancing has never been more popular than at the present,
    with over 500 sides in the UK and many overseas.
    
    It takes many years of dedicated practice to learn the skills and
    this kind of commitment forms a strong binding force among 
    dancers. I have been Morris dancing for over 12 years now and
    am beginning to get an inkling for the amount I don't know about
    the subject. Morris dancing is very special to me, It is a way
    of life. It generates a kind of friendship between men that I
    do not think exists any where else.
    
    This friendship, I think, comes from commitment to develop skills
    to  reach a common aim. The personal skill enable you to perform
    together as a team.
    
    Flavours of Morris
    __________________
    
    Cotswold  -		Sides of Six, Set dances; White costume, bells
    			Stick, Handkerchief and stepping dances.
    
    North-West	-	Powerful processional dances for 8-16 men
    			Colourful costume - Clogs.
    
    Border	-	Rough Agricultural Dances.
    
    Molly 	-	Similar to Border, Associated with Plough Monday
    
    Longsword	-	Six men, Military style costume.
    
    Rapper	-	Short sword, five men, tight and fast.
    
    Flamborough -	8 men, wooden "swords", Fishermans dance.
    
    Mummers	-	Ritual plays, often with longsword dance.
    
    
    	Try it !!	Good exercise, good friends, you'll get hooked!
    
    			High Capers !
    
    			   Strolls
    
    
    
    
    

    RE: .32  "2-handled knife dance"
    
    I think what you're referring to is called Rapper Sword dancing.
    There are basically two forms of English Ritual Sword dancing (not
    to be confused with the Scottish broadsword dance) - Rapper and
    Longsword.  The Rapper sword is about 18" long and has a wooden
    handle on each end, one fixed and one that swivels.  Longsword has
    a stiffer blade about 2' long with a handle at only one end.  Rapper
    is usually much faster than Longsword with more of a clogging step.
    
    For some reason, Rapper has proved more popular among the Women's
    Morris teams in the New England area.  It is often more showy and
    dramatic than Longsword which has a very smooth rythym.
    

        NEFFA is April 24 (from around 6:00PM) through April 26 (that's
        Friday through Sunday) at the Natick High School.  You can
        get tickets (at the door) by the half day or for the whole
        weekend... discounts for NEFFA members (membership can be
        bought---or renewed---at the door).
        
        Virtually continuous dancing (mostly contras, a lot of squares,
        but a wide mix of folk dancing and etc.) in 4 halls, plus
        dancing demos (primarily morris/rapper) in two other places (and
        a lot of international folk demos in the main hall on Saturday
        afternoon); music workshops/singalongs/etc in two rooms;
        cafeteria full of interesting international foods (I'd recommend
        that everyone try the Italian Ice after a hard dance... but if I
        did then there'd be less for me, so I won't mention it :-)); two
        crafts sales/exhibition rooms (often including performances on a
        custom made harpsichord), plus more scattered along the main
        corridors.  Wide variety of (primarily folk/contra) records,
        tapes, and songbooks available.
        
        Nearly everything (aside from some of the demos) is live
        music by a number of truely fantastic New England bands;
        you'll find a lot of jamming in the halls, too, so it's fun
        to just walk around.
        
        It's exhausting and a lot of fun.  Go early or park miles
        away (there are some busses from the boony parking areas).
        Don't miss it!
        
        	/dave
        
        (p.s., I'm not in any way associated with NEFFA, though both
        my mother and father usually call dances during the weekend;
        I've merely been enthusiastically attending for something
        like 9 years).

    RE: .34  "any NEFFAs out there?"
    
    Yes, I was publicity chairman of NEFFA for several years until I
    worked my way out of a job.  It got so crowded that they decided
    the last thing they needed to do was tell more people where it was
    and when :-).  
    
    I've been going to the New England Folk Festival since about 1960.
    I used to do a lot of dancing, but now I spend most of my time in
    the cafeteria, sampling the varied ethnic cuisine and socializing
    with old friends.
    
    

    RE: Neffa
    
    It will be April 24,25, and 26th....
    
    Make sure you stop by the FRENCH booth, and give Meta all your business
    (and say hello to me too :-)...)
    
    There will be a mexican booth this year also...
    
    Gale (who can hardly wait!)

    re:.34                                     
    
    >The Rapper, what is it used for ?
    
    The "Rapper" is a blade of flexible steel used to scrape mud and
    caked on dirt from the backs of pit ponies. Similar implements are
    still in use to clean cattle.
    
    re:.32
    
    >Morris dancing is also done with women on the teams;...
    
    Morris is a MALE fertility rite. The concept of women dancing Morris
    is strange. Morris takes a lot of commitment and many years of practice
    to learn. I have seen many so-called women morris dancers, but by
    definition they are not Morris dancers. It seems to be some kind
    of feminist kick. 
    
    We have enough problem trying to maintain standards in the Morris
    as it is, without women coming along and going through the motions.
    I think the public gets confused by all this. Women make it look
    like any old country dance display, rather than a traditional rite
    that has been passed down the generations for over 500 years.
    
    High Capers
    
    Strolls
    

    re: .38
    
    Au Contraire, M'siur ... In the United States all things are possible
    ---including -- female Morris Dance Teams --- who are excellent!
    
    It would be nice to get a 'video" of the English teams and compare
    it to the US Womens (usually mixed) Morris Dance Teams.
    
    It'd be even better to see if the English Mens teams could compete
    against a US mixed dance team ?  Any ideas on  how to do that ?
    
    .bob.
    
    

re: .38

Maybe i already entered this in another note, but i thought women's
Morris teams were a necessity (and helped preserve the Morris) during
and right after World War I, because SO MANY men were killed in the War.
It took several generations for the men to restaff their Morris teams...
							paul c.

    At the risk of being declared both pedantic and sexist:
    
    A woman may dance all the steps of the Morris. She may even do so better
    than men do. However no matter how well she executes the movements it
    is NOT Morris dancing: it is a woman executing the movements that if
    executed by a man would be Morris dancing.
    
    However I was taught the Morris by a woman: she danced the steps superbly
    well, but she always called herself a folk dancer, and Morris teacher.
    
    Women have been the repository of folk tradition in Europe, especially
    in the Celtic fringes, since the dawn of time, and it was by no means
    unique that during the crisis caused by World War I they helped preserve
    the traditions. But doing so didn't make them Morris dancers.
    
    /. Ian .\

     I hereby declare that Ian is both pedantic and sexist.
    
    ("That damn MacMurphy, he beggin' fo' it.")

    re: .39,.40 & .41
    
    
    Ian is quite right. Women did help keep the tradition going during
    the War, in one or two sides, although it did not take several
    generations (.40)  to restaff. I know two of these ladies very well,
    neither consider themselves Morris dancers and they only did it to help
    make up numbers in the practices when there were not enough men.
    They find the thought abhorent, that other women use their example to
    set a precedent for womens and mixed teams. 
    
    re:.38
    
    Yes,I know there are female teams in the US,I have seen them myself.
    However, your comment that they are excellent I cannot concur. They
    are often very precise and stylised, but they are different. Women
    are physiologically different. They do not dance the same as men.
    The Morris is a vigarous, masculine dance and above all a MALE
    fertility ritual. To see women perform the dances, they may give
    a neat show of formation dancing, but it is not, and cannot be, Morris
    dancing.
    
    In the US, the women teams seem to have a slightly different attitude
    to the UK. It is just another ethnic dance form which one can learn
    and perform, just like Isreali dancing or Hungarian. Perhaps, because
    of its English origins, they feel they can identify with it a bit
    more than the others. Also the US public audience see it as just
    another quaint ethnic dance form without any preconcieved ideas
    of the symbolism or reason for the dance.
    
    In the UK, Morris dancing has a history going back over 500 years.
    The audience in rural areas are much more informed. It is still
    taught to boys at school in some areas and the dancers regularly
    visit the villages in the summer. The spirit and purpose of the
    ritual is largely known and understood. Unfortunatley, this state
    of affairs is gradually declining where the influence of urban
    cultural standards are increasing. Women going through the motions
    in public only serves to confuse the audience and dilute the impact.
    People expect to see MEN dancing a MALE Fertility Dance. The dance
    loses all of its meaning and purpose when women try. It just becomes 
    a sideshow of dancers in pretty costumes jiggling about.
    
               
    
    High Capers 
    
    Strolls
    

    re: .43
    
    Historicaly, I inderstand the origin of "Morris" dancing is actually
    much older, where the name was anglicied from "Moorish" dancing,
    origianlly performed by the Moors; and brought to the Western Europe
    by the Crusaders (questionable facts).
    
    In time, it became the basis of many realted dance forms, such
    as the "Irish Dancing", "Scottish Dances", and eventually found
    its way into the Americas and became Contra Dancing".

    If I understand your position, if its called "Morris Dancing", it
    must be done 'exclusively' by men. 
    
    If this is correct, then it follows they must be Englishmen ?
    
    (It doesn't really follow, because many of the US AMerican
    women who perform the Morris dances can show up many men
    regardless of their nationality; as some of them are quite
    strong and capable beyond many mens abilities.)
    

    I agree it is a very physically challenging dance (which is why
    I stopped trying to learn it); and requires great strength and stamina
    to do the figures correctly in the correct time. To say that only
    men posses thes attributes is false. GENERALLY speaking, you are
    correct. But I am talking about REAL Morris dancers, and just the
    ones who are mimicking the figures.
    
    'Course, I've never seen what you call the REAL Morris Dancers.
    My stay in England was very brief. Perhaps next time I'll have enough
    time to see them. Do they generally perform in London or just
    at town fairs (garden parties) and the like.
    
    .bob.
    

     Re .44: well, yes, and no...
     
     The word Morris is a derivative of "Moorish" but the dance isn't of
     Moorish origins...
     
     And the Morris is one of the source materials for Scottish and Irish
     set dances, but another and equally important input is the May (a dance
     for women/girls involving complex circuiting of a pole decorated with
     hanging tapes - usually associated with Mayday festivities). There
     are other inputs too.
     
     Though in their modern forms both the Morris and the May go back about
     500 years, both are *much* older. Much of the symbolism involved dates
     back to The Old Religion of Celtic, pre-Roman times, and originally
     had direct connections with invocational dances associated with the
     ceremonial magic of the major religious festival that occurs on what
     is now Mayday, and is associated with fertility (both human and also
     of the crops that the old farming communities relied upon).
     
     /. Ian .\

    Re: .45 and the Maypole -- (skip this if you're squeamish)
    
    I read once (and I have no idea how reliable the source was) that
    dancing around the Maypole is the remnant of an ancient Celtic and
    Druidic rite that involved sacrificing a victim by wrapping his
    or her intestines around a living tree -- the ribbons being the
    symbol of the insides.  Do you know anything about this supposed
    derivation?
    
    --bonnie

RE: .46

They only did that if the victim had injured a living tree (trees were sacred
to the druids).  I have read that they would nail the person to the tree,
cut him open, and wrap his intestine around the tree wound.

I thought the Maypole represented the phallus.


John M.