Conference bookie::movies

    
    	Maybe you haven't seen many non-holly wood films as according to
    most Americans the world stretches from Boston to L.A.
    
    The rest is some small dodgy place where Arabs and Commies live.
    
    Have a look at all of the Hollywood Films that were rip-offs of
    european films   eg,
    			The Assassin
    			Somersby
    			Three men and a baby
    			
    to name but a few.
    
    ps.  no we can't hear the bombs in Bosnia because it is a different
    country and a few thousand miles away. 

    I find that my local blockbuster store has a nice selection of foreign
    films.  The top directors of Spain, Italy, China, India, Germany, and
    more appear to be represented.  I recently watched Raise the Red
    Lantern, Jou-Dou, and Farewell My Concubine -- all by a chinese
    director.  They were fabulous.
    
    I recently read an article which discussed the fact that the movie
    producers, distributors of foreign films were not into spending the
    extra money required to dub the films with various languages.  It
    seems that sub-titles are not very popular -- difficult to follow, 
    distracting from the visuals.  Your eyes need to be glued to the
    screen, lest you miss something.

    
    
    	I disagree....
    	I think dubbing is usually only detrimental to Movies.
    	Not watching Films because they have subtitles is down to
    	laziness or the attention span of a goldfish.

>    	Not watching Films because they have subtitles is down to
>    	laziness or the attention span of a goldfish.

    Or illiteracy.
    
    One of the problems I sometimes have with subtitles is that they're
    hard to read, depending on the color and contrast on the screen.
    
    Why not put the subtitles in a day-glo green or yellow? I suspect the
    filmmakers would revolt at the thought of readable subtitles
    interfering with their visual creations.
    
      John

    I cannot watch an imported film unless it is in sub-titles.
    	
    for example:
    	Two Women
    	La Cage au Folls (sp)
    	Farwell My Concubine
    		to name a few... I agree most people are lazy,,or feel
    	distracted with the sub-titles....
    
    you lose so much if they're not.	Imagine some American actress
    dubbing for Anna Magnani.!!!! no way!
    
    
    
    
    
    BR

    re: sub-titles
    
    Most of the "upscale" video houses use yellow sub-titles to make them
    legible under the most adverse conditions (white and black backgrounds)
    
    Anyway, all of the foreign films I've seen here in Singapore are sub-
    titled in at least English. Sometimes the spelling isn't great, but
    it suffices. If they can do it on film prints here, why not on video
    there?? Sub-titles and dubbing are just not an issue in my view.
    
    re: foreign movies at Blockbuster, et al ...
    
    Yep, there are a few foreign tapes available in the US. Most of them
    are quite old and shopworn. But I'll give you an example: Sophie Marceau 
    (in Mel Gibson's "Braveheart") is a well-established actress in Europe, 
    with 15 films to her credit. I've only seen two of them in all the video 
    stores in the US. It's even worse for many well-known Spanish, Italian,
    Israeli, Indian, and Asian actors and actresses, who have absolutely
    no material available in the US. 
    
    Blockbuster does carry foreign movies; at the one I used to belong to,
    they had about 100 or so tapes. Some of the local "non-Blockbuster"
    video stores had many more, one with almost 300. This represents less
    than one percent of the possible mainstream European films that *could*
    be on video. I think Blockbuster, more than any other single factor,
    has destroyed diversity in the US video market. Most video houses won't
    even consider making a tape that they don't think Blockbuster will buy,
    because it controls so much of the consumer rental market.
    
    But here's a question: Are these movies available on tape *anywhere*?
    Here in Asia I've already picked up about 40 Chinese and Indian movies
    on tape, with English sub-titles. Granted, they're in PAL format, but
    in the age of cheap multi-standard VCR's it isn't a problem. Were I to
    pass through Frankfurt or Paris on the next trip home, would I be able
    to find a similar wealth of material in the local European video store?
    What do tapes cost in Europe these days?
    
    Geoff 

    Hmmm ...  I wonder if the movie Fahrenheit 451 had subtitles in other
    languages.  Reason it would be interesting is that the intro to the
    movie was entirely done with narration rather than with titles as is
    the normal practice.  This was to emphasize the point of the movie.
    I don't remember if the end of the movie had credits on screen.  I
    suppose it did.  But, subtitles may have tainted the intended effect
    for Fahrenheit 451.
    
    Steve

    Reading subtitles is fine, but while you're reading, the video action 
    is going on and you might miss something.  I mean subtitles are fine
    for something like "My Dinner with Andre" but inadaquet with perhaps
    the action scenes in "Star Wars".  Of course there's always the option
    to rewind :-).  Personally, I find dubbing less offensive.  Besides,
    how do you subtitle an argument where two people are talking at the
    same time or where someone is talking while a voice over an intercom is
    conveying some important message.  I get used to the dubbing after a
    while and can spend more time watching the movie as opposed to 
    reading.  But the vast majority of foreign films are subtitled.
    
    Why don't you see more foreign films in the video stores?  I'm sure it
    has to do with money.  If nobody rents them, they won't buy them and
    put them on the shelf.  Good luck at trying to change the viewing
    tastes of the American public.  I'm afraid that's what it'll take to
    get more foreign films on the proverbial shelf. I'm fortunate enough to
    live near  a video store with a good selection of foreign films and I
    often take advantage of them.  One good thing is that they usually only
    stock the very best and it's a "can't miss" choice of movies!
    
    I've seen at least one remake of a foreign film by Hollywood.  I'm sure
    there are others as well. In other words, if they're really that good,
    someone in Hollywood *may* fork out the dough, remake it "Holywood
    Style" and hit the American market with a more popular version.  The
    movie I'm thinking of was the one where a young woman is kidnapped, her
    boyfriend is obsessed in finding her, eventually finds the kidnapper
    who lures him into being burried alive as he burried his girlfriend. 
    Pity that Hollywood turned it into a happy ending where the original
    just left the guy waking up in the coffin..... Gulp!  
    
    And you can get some movies in both subtitled and dubbed versions (e.g.
    "Das Boot").  I saw both and preferred the dubbed, I LOVED the movie!
    
    Maybe all we gutta do is get all them foreigners to talk American 
    and make their movies rite the furst time... huh?
    
    
    -dave
    
    
    
    
    
    

>    Reading subtitles is fine, but while you're reading, the video action 
>    is going on and you might miss something.  I mean subtitles are fine

I disagree... if action is taking place, there is little dialog, usually.
Also, it gets to the point where you don't really even need to look straight
at the sub titles (maybe it's just me) but I can see and read them while
not looking directly at them....

>    Personally, I find dubbing less offensive.  Besides,
>    how do you subtitle an argument where two people are talking at the
>    same time or where someone is talking while a voice over an intercom is
>    conveying some important message.  I get used to the dubbing after a

Dubbing, to me, is horrible... The only exception is if some of the actors 
doing the dubbing are the same actors to star in the film (which this case
doesn't happen often...)

I mean, acting is more than just saying the lines, and usually when it's
dubbed the people speaking the lines are unable to catch the same mood as
the actors who are on film... sometimes causing very good scenes in a movie
to be ruined... "A Better Tomorrow" (John Woo Film, Hong Kong) is an example
of a great film which got horrible dubbing which ending up making the film 
itself look like crap...

>    I've seen at least one remake of a foreign film by Hollywood.  I'm sure
>    there are others as well. In other words, if they're really that good,
>    someone in Hollywood *may* fork out the dough, remake it "Holywood
>    Style" and hit the American market with a more popular version.  The

95% of all hollywood remakes of foreign films can never compare or live up
to the original... "The Vanishing" is the film you mention, and Hollywood
RUINED the ending of that film. I won't even mention "The Man with One Red
Shoe"... oh - too late - I mentioned it.  ;-)

/scott

    
         I have to agree on the dubbing.  It almost always stinks.  I am a
    fairly rapid reader, so catching the action is rarely a problem.
    
                                     Greg

    re .9

>The only exception is if some of the actors 
>doing the dubbing are the same actors to star in the film 

    One of whom is Jodie Foster! She went to the French Lycee rather than
    English-speaking high school as she grew up in the Los Angeles area. 

    Lisa

>>if action is taking place, there is little dialog, usually.
Most action films have dialog and intense video action going on simultaneously.
I watched a segment of "The Empire Strikes Back" the other day in the video
store where Luke was zipping along in his little fighter in the midst of 
battle... talking into the radio, listening to assorted transmissions coming 
back to him over the radio and also listening to (what's his name, the old 
man/mentor...) Obeewan (sp) wispering to him through the ether.  Wheeeew!  
Now that would be a subtitle nightmare. 

>>Also, it gets to the point where you don't really even need to look straight
>>at the sub titles (maybe it's just me) but I can see and read them while
>>not looking directly at them

Well, there's a note in the PHYSICS conference regarding this point.  When you
really think about it, you can't read words unless you're looking right at
them.  Reading with peripheral vision is, well, read the note (DECWET::PHYSICS 
note 394).  Having a very rudimentary understanding of French, I find that I 
can sometimes pick up many of the words by simply hearing them and a quick 
glance at the sentence serves to "fill in the blanks".

I find that for most of the time, I can read the subtitle and then take a quick
glance at the picture before the next subtitle pops up.  If the movie happens
to have a section where there's a rapid flurry of words, the subtitles can 
stream by quicker than I can read them, especially if the words are partially
"camoflaged" in the background of the picture and that background is shifting
around. Or if >1 person is talking at once.

>>Dubbing, to me, is horrible... The only exception is if some of the actors 

It's horrible to me to.  I just dislike dubbing less than subtitles.  Some might
claim that makes me lazy.  But I believe that a movie should be made as close to
"real life" as possible.  And real life people don't speak to each other with
subtitles.

>>I mean, acting is more than just saying the lines, and usually when it's
>>dubbed the people speaking the lines are unable to catch the same mood as
>>the actors who are on film... sometimes causing very good scenes in a movie
>>to be ruined...

Some do a pretty good job considering the impossible task of trying to
coordinate the words with the visual movement of the mouth.  The sudio-visual 
coordination of the "dub" (or lack thereof) is what I dislike the most.

I agree that the people dubbing the lines may not do as good a job as the
original actor in the film, but it's better than trying to glean these
subtleties from a written sentance together with an incomprehensible
vocalization. I mean which word goes with which sound?  Do you really have time 
to map the written words to the voiced words in the audio portion?  It works for
short sentences but not the occasional paragraph that flashes up on the screen.
Sure you get the gist of it, but you can get the gist from a dub too.

>>95% of all hollywood remakes of foreign films can never compare or live up
>>to the original... "The Vanishing" is the film you mention, and Hollywood
>>RUINED the ending of that film. I won't even mention "The Man with One Red
>>Shoe"... oh - too late - I mentioned it.  ;-)

Well, that's the fault of the jerks who do the remakes.  There's no reason why
they can't do a good job of it, perhaps even hiring many of the same actors.

"The Vanishing", that's it.  I forgot the name of the original French version.
(probably "The Vanishing" only in French). I was captivated by the original
and HATED the remake.
    

-dave

    RE .8, .9, .12
    
    The original version of "the vanishing" is called: "Spoorloos". 
    It's not a French film but it is a Dutch film. And it's true that 
    the Hollywood remake was crap (as always).
    
    	Greetings from an angry dutchman,
    				    Richard. 

    
    Dubbing - just say NO! :^)
    
    If a non-English language film (I won't say foreign, since films made
    in Britain surely count as such to most noters) is worth watching it's 
    worth making the effort to read the subtitles - I've seen some
    wonderful (especially French, but also Italian, German, Spanish and 
    Japanese) films on British TV and they've been subtitled (someone 
    mentioned Das Boot - that was also better, imo, when subtitled). 
    
    I think the big problem with dubbing is that you loose some of the essence 
    of the film along with the original language - I'm sure an English film 
    (Much ado about nothing, for instance) suffers equally by being dubbed
    into a foreign language. As a tangental example, listen to pop songs from 
    mainland European (ie NOT British) singers/groups. In English they're 
    almost purile and the songs seem worthless and overly light. Listen to 
    the originals and, even if you don't understand the words, the passion 
    and the feeling seems to come out so much more.
    
    As for Hollywood remakes of foreign films, one (and not a bad Hollywood
    film taken in isolation) sticks in my mind - Nikitta/The Asassin. IMO,
    if you see Nikitta, the Asassin is just a pale imitation...   
    
    It's true of the British market too (and perhaps EVEN more so of the
    mainland European one, except Holland, which partly explains why Dutch
    people speak other languages so well), that the majority would rather 
    not make the effort to read subtitles (my wife, for instance, dislikes 
    subtitles, so we rarely watch foreign (other than American :^)) films 
    these days, sadly). In mainland Europe, dodgy dubbing of foreign
    language (including English) TV and films is the norm, but in Britain 
    (it seems) the sub-title rules (thankfully) the small foreign language 
    film market.
    
    Mark
    
    PS On the downside, too often, subtitles are unclear (white on light
    backgrounds, usually) and you're left to guess what was so significant
    about a scene.
                                                       
    PPS On another note, some US films (especially the 'Boyz in the Hood'
    type gangland films) could do with subtitles for the British, a la
    Airplane!

    
    	I really liked the treatment given to "La Belle et Le Bete" as it
    	was shown while Philip Glass performed his opera for the film - all
    	the subtitles were displayed at the top of the screen, *above* the
    	actual film itself, in its own black box. That worked out
    	wonderfully, no picture loss and no contrast problems...

    	-Erik

>>    <<< Note 860.14 by UNTADI::SAXBY "She's not beautiful. She's Blonde!" >>>
    
>>   I think the big problem with dubbing is that you loose some of the essence 
>>   of the film along with the original language 

	Agreed.  I won't watch dubbed films, mostly for this reason.  Being
	able to hear the tone - the tenor - of the actors' voices is key, as
	well.  Dubbing is an abomination.

    Not to rain on your anti-Hollywood fun, but both versions of 
    "The Vanishing" were done by the same director, and the ending changes
    were "his" choice.
    
    

    >         the subtitles were displayed at the top of the screen,
    > *above* the actual film itself, in its own black box. That
    > worked out wonderfully, no picture loss and no contrast problems...
    
    Hey, and that has the advantage (on video) of allowing a little more of
    the peripheral picture to appear on the TV when the movie is "formatted
    to fit your screen". Great idea; all foreign movies should try that!
    				Jim

re: the PPS in .14

I found the English subtitles on "Riff Raff" terribly distracting.  I'd
rather struggle with the accents than have subtitles on an English
language film!

Chris