Conference nyoss1::market_investing

    It seems values.h is not provided by DEC C or VAX C compilers (at least
    that's not one on our systems).
    
    Looks like all that's needed from values.h are values for MAXINT and
    MAXLONG (?). I'd assume these are maximum values for the associated
    storage types, yes?  (I've stuck them in myself assuming so).
    
    thanks,
    \steve

>     It seems values.h is not provided by DEC C or VAX C compilers (at least
>     that's not one on our systems).

	I thought values.h was defined by ANSI, guess not (at least not
	on VMS).  I also could not find any VMS equivelents :-(

> Looks like all that's needed from values.h are values for MAXINT and
> MAXLONG (?). I'd assume these are maximum values for the associated
> storage types, yes?  (I've stuck them in myself assuming so).

	Yup, that's what they are!

    The DEC C compiler on OSF/1, Microsoft C on Windows NT, and VAX-C on
    VMS use limits.h for defining such symbols as INT_MAX, LONG_MAX,
    CHAR_BIT, etc.  My guess is limits.h is what one should use as a
    standard for these types of symbols.

    So if you define MAXINT as INT_MAX, MAXLONG as LONG_MAX, and include
    limits.h instead of values.h that should fix the problem unless there
    are a some other dependencies.

>     So if you define MAXINT as INT_MAX, MAXLONG as LONG_MAX, and include
>     limits.h instead of values.h that should fix the problem unless there
>     are a some other dependencies.

	ok, I've replaced .1 with the latest.  it uses limits.h and
	INT_*.  thanks, jeff

     Has anyone had any problems using the Tradedirect? I placed a market
    order through it on a security the other day. It gave me a bid of 25
    1/2, ask of 25 5/8. I told it to buy at market. My confirmation said I
    bought at 25 7/8. Whenever I buy at market with a human at this firm, I
    always get it at the current asked price they quote me. They tell me
    there is no delay with this service but I'm not so sure. Anyone else
    experience this?
    
                                                 JRW

	One nice thing about Waterhouse is that there is no additional
	charge for limit orders.  I use them extensively to avoid
	the problem you ran into.

	But I don't have an answer to your question ...

    
    	Just got my announcement from them (our fine friends at Waterhouse)
    on TradeDirect, but I haven't done anything yet. I really don't trade,
    I invest; but getting real close on selling some of my DEC stock in my
    IRA, so....
    
    	And 10% is 10%. maybe there's a difference between OTC and NYSE
    trades?
    
    			the Greyhawk
    
    	

    I am planning on opening an account with Waterhouse very soon.  I have
received and read their information packet and will be calling them about
a few questions I have.  However, since it seems that there are quite a few 
people in here who use them, I would like to get your opinion as well.  Have
you had any extremely positive/negative encounters?
    Also, this will be my first experience with investing, other than a savings
account at the bank.  I don't want to pay the high commissions at a full
brokerage service, and Waterhouse meets this criteria.  I also want to be able
to invest in a variety of options - stocks, bonds, mutual funds, etc.. and 
Waterhouse also seems to offer this.  I want to limit the amount of commission
I pay, and Waterhouse has a very competitive rate ($35).  Now, for a few of
my unanswered questions...
    First, I can open a Money Market Account at Waterhouse to hold my cash.
I plan on doing this, and there are three choices: Money Market, Government
Securities and Tax-Free.  Which, if any, should I choose?  Also, do they charge
a fee for simply depositing money in this account? (I am going to ask H2Ohouse
about this...)
    Second, I can either have them hold my securities or mail them to me.  They
do not mention a fee for mailing, but all the others did so I know that they
must charge one.  I will probably just have them hold all securities as well
as sweep any dividends into my MM account.  Opinions on this?

Thanks in advance...

Rob

>     First, I can open a Money Market Account at Waterhouse to hold my cash.
> I plan on doing this, and there are three choices: Money Market, Government
> Securities and Tax-Free.  Which, if any, should I choose? Also, do they charge
> a fee for simply depositing money in this account? (I am going to ask H2Ohouse
> about this...)

	I use tax-free.  I think it is paying 2%, but I live min. in there.
	they do not charge fees to deposit money into your mm account.

>     Second, I can either have them hold my securities or mail them to me. They
> do not mention a fee for mailing, but all the others did so I know that they
> must charge one.  I will probably just have them hold all securities as well
> as sweep any dividends into my MM account.  Opinions on this?

	Your best bet is to simply call them.  They are very friendly
	and helpful and will answer all questions.  I have all my proceeds
	deposited into the mm, but I don't believe they charge additional
	for mailing.  The reason they can get away with this is because
	they are not the lowest discount brokers so those costs are averaged
	out over everybodies transations.

re                       <<< Note 773.9 by KOALA::BRIGGS >>>
                      -< Planning on using Waterhouse... >-

>    I am planning on opening an account with Waterhouse very soon.  I have
>received and read their information packet and will be calling them about
>a few questions I have.  However, since it seems that there are quite a few 
>people in here who use them, I would like to get your opinion as well.  Have
>you had any extremely positive/negative encounters?

never had any probs w/ them in 1 yr.

>    First, I can open a Money Market Account at Waterhouse to hold my cash.
>I plan on doing this, and there are three choices: Money Market, Government
>Securities and Tax-Free.  Which, if any, should I choose?  Also, do they charge
>a fee for simply depositing money in this account? (I am going to ask H2Ohouse
>about this...)

it is wash, for the most part.  tax-free is nice 'cuz you don't have to worry
about taxes and filling out all the tax forms.  they don't charge any fees
for depositing money!!!  they _want_ your money, charging a fee would be
a deterrant.

>    Second, I can either have them hold my securities or mail them to me.  They
>do not mention a fee for mailing, but all the others did so I know that they
>must charge one.  I will probably just have them hold all securities as well
>as sweep any dividends into my MM account.  Opinions on this?

have 'em hold your securities!!!!!!  why would you want that responsibility?
i xfr my ESPP shares to my h20 house account also... that way, i have the
fingah on the triggah.  also, have all dividend,etc swept into the account.
for mutual funds, always choose dividend reinvest vs. getting a check.  that's
how your investment builds.

    
    	-2 Excellent advice. Waterhouse holds both my "investing" account
    and my IRA. Service has been top-notch, and excutions are almost
    real-time. If you need a withdrawl, it is right there when you request
    it, no muss, no fuss.
    
    	Would suggest an IRA there. They have extremely low fees ($25 for
    the annual fee which goes to no charge after you have $10K in the
    account), and do some things even a full brokerage is reluctant (like
    stop/loss on IRA-held assets).
    
    			the Greyhawk

/*
 *	This program computes the commission for a stock trade at
 *	Waterhouse (a discount broker).  Their formula is to use
 *	a leading full service brokers formula and discount it 70%.
 *	They also have some minor additions after the discount is taken.
 *
 *	The program takes two arguments on the command line when run,
 *	the number of shares being purchased, and the price per share
 *	(as a floating point number, for example, 30 1/8 would be 30.125).
 *
 *	Example:
 *
 * % c 300 30.125
 * 300 shares @ 30.125 = 9037.50, commission 52.08 (0.174/share)
 *         Trade direct commission: 46.88 (0.156/share)
 *
 *	The 2nd line is discounts the commission an additional 10% which
 *	is the Trade Direct (Waterhouse's automated touch tone trading
 *	system) discount.
 *
 *	Author: Jeff Michaud
 *	Created: Oct. 3, 1994
 *
 *      Edit history:
 *	    Oct. 7, 1994 Jeff Michaud (thanks to noters Kennedy & Pearson)
 *		Changed values.h to limits.h for portability
 *	    Nov. 30, 1994 Ken Rauhala (Pres. of Chris Elliott Fan Club)
 *		stdlib needed for atof function prototype
 *		Fix spelling errors
 *	    March 16, 1995 Jeff Michaud
 *		Fix bug due to one more rule being hidden on a different
 *		page than the commision formula from waterhouse.  That
 *		is that on trades of 1,000 shares of more the waterhouse
 *		commision has a 5 cents/share minimum :-((
 *
 *	Disclaimer: I make no claims to the accuracy of the output of
 *	this program, or changes to Waterhouse's commission schedule/formula.
 */

#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <math.h>
#include <limits.h>

#define WATERHOUSERATE	0.30
#define MINCOMMISION	35.0
#define TRADEDIRECTRATE	0.90

typedef struct {
    long maxmi;
    int maxshares;
    float pomi;		/* Percentage of Money Involved */
    float pluspershare;
    float plusfixed;
#define F_NA	0x01
#define F_FIXED	0x02
#define F_PSMAX	0x04
    unsigned flags;
} formula_t, *formula_p;

formula_t formulas[] = {
    {     800,      100, 2.696,      0,    8.43 },
    {     800,     1000, 2.696, 0.0785,    8.43, F_PSMAX },
    {     800,  INT_MAX,     0,      0,       0, F_NA },
    {    2500,      100, 1.685, 0.0315,   16.85 },
    {    2500,     1000, 1.685, 0.0893,   18.95 },
    {    2500,  INT_MAX, 1.685, 0.0615,   46.67 },
    {    5000,      100, 1.236, 0.0315,   29.91 },
    {    5000,     1000, 1.236, 0.0893,   31.31 },
    {    5000,  INT_MAX, 1.236, 0.0615,   59.03 },
    {   20000,      100, 1.236, 0.0315,   31.46 },
    {   20000,     1000, 1.236, 0.0945,   33.56 },
    {   20000,  INT_MAX, 1.236, 0.0615,   66.90 },
    {   30000,      100,     0,      0,   92.00, F_FIXED },
    {   30000,     1000, 0.843, 0.0945,  114.45 },
    {   30000,  INT_MAX, 0.843, 0.0615,  147.79 },
    {  300000,      100,     0,      0,   92.00, F_FIXED },
    {  300000,     1000, 0.562, 0.0945,  199.84 },
    {  300000,  INT_MAX, 0.562, 0.0615,  233.17 },
    { LONG_MAX,     100,     0,      0,   92.00, F_FIXED },
    { LONG_MAX,    1000, 0.225, 0.0945, 1209.86 },
    { LONG_MAX, INT_MAX, 0.225, 0.0615, 1243.20 },
    { 0 }
};

compute(int nshares, float price)
{
    float fullratecommision;
    float commision;
    float mi;
    formula_p tab = formulas;

    mi = price * nshares;

    for( ; tab->maxmi != 0 ; tab++ )
	if( mi <= tab->maxmi  &&  nshares <= tab->maxshares )
	    break;

    if( tab->maxmi == 0 ) {
	fprintf(stderr, "Formula table not equiped to handle this request\n");
	exit(2);
    }

    if( tab->flags & F_NA ) {
	fprintf(stderr, "Commission rate not available for this request\n");
	exit(3);
    }

    if( tab->flags & F_FIXED )
	fullratecommision = tab->plusfixed;
    else {
	float persharecharge = nshares * tab->pluspershare;

	if( tab->flags & F_PSMAX )
	    if( (0.10 * mi) < persharecharge )
		persharecharge = 0.10 * mi;

	fullratecommision  = tab->plusfixed;
	fullratecommision += mi * (tab->pomi/100);
	fullratecommision += persharecharge;
    }

    /* Now compute Waterhouse commision, also taking into account their
       additional rules */
    commision = fullratecommision * WATERHOUSERATE;

    if( nshares > 100  &&  mi <= 5000  &&  (commision/nshares) > 0.87 )
	commision = 0.87 * nshares;

    if( nshares > 100  &&  mi > 5000  &&  (commision/nshares) > 0.92 )
	commision = 0.92 * nshares;

    if( nshares <= 100  &&  commision > MINCOMMISION )
	commision = MINCOMMISION;

    /* Waterhouse has a min. commision of 5 cents/share on 1000 or more shares
       being traded */
    if( nshares >= 1000  &&  (commision/nshares) < 0.05 )
	commision = nshares * 0.05;

    if( commision < MINCOMMISION )
	commision = MINCOMMISION;

    /* If trading penny stocks (less than $1) Waterhouse charges
       $30 plus 3% of the principle (money involved) */
    if( price < 1 )
	commision = 30.00 + (mi * 0.03);

    /* Now print the results */
    printf("%5d shares @ %.3f = %.2f, commission %.2f (%.3f/share)\n",
	nshares, price, mi, commision, commision/nshares);

    printf("\tTrade direct commission: %.2f (%.3f/share)\n",
	commision*TRADEDIRECTRATE, (commision*TRADEDIRECTRATE)/nshares);
}

main(argc, argv)
    int argc;
    char *argv[];
{
    char *prog = argv[0];
    float price;
    int nshares;
    int increments = 0;

    for( argc--, argv++ ; argc > 0 && argv[0][0] == '-' ; argc--, argv++ )
	if( argv[0][1] == 'i' ) {
	    increments = atoi(&argv[0][2]);
	    if( increments == 0 )
		increments = 100;
	}
	else if( argv[0][1] == 'I' ) {
	    increments = atoi(&argv[0][2]);
	    if( increments == 0 )
		increments = 1000;
	}
	else
	    fprintf(stderr, "%s: option %s unrecognized, ignored\n",
		prog, argv[0]);

    if( argc < 2 ) {
	fprintf(stderr, "Usage: %s number-of-shares price\n", prog);
	exit(1);
    }

    nshares = atoi(argv[0]);
    price   = atof(argv[1]);

    if( increments == 0 )
	compute(nshares, price);
    else {
	int x;

	for( x = increments ; x <= nshares ; x += increments )
	    compute(x, price);

	if( (nshares % increments) != 0 )
	    compute(nshares, price);
    }

    exit(0);
}

	Found a bug in commision computation for trades of 1,000 or
	more where the program didn't take into account another rule
	in the formula (hidden on another page) and that is that
	for those trades the min. commision is 5 cents/share.

	.1 is the new source (plus some other spelling fixes and
	a fix to make atof work reliably on VMS from Ken Rauhala).

    First let me make clear I know next to nothing about C. Despite this I
    was able to extract and compile this program on my friendly VMS system.     
    I tried to RUN it but was told there were "too many arguments", and upon    
    asking my friendly System Manager, was told that I (insert SM disdainful
    look here) needed to *link* it first. I tried to LINK the .OBJ file and
    was rewarded with numerous error messages, many of which seem to be due
    to undefined items. I'm sure one you can tell the obvious think I don't
    know, and I will soon be merrily computing Waterhouse commisions for
    transactions in my brand new, shiny account.

	Thanks in advance/Paul

	$ SET DEF SYS$LOGIN		! or wherever
	$ CC COMM.C
	$ DEFINE  LNK$LIBRARY  SYS$LIBRARY:VAXCRTL
	$ LINK COMM.OBJ
	$ COMM :== $SYS$LOGIN:COMM.EXE	! you can put this in login.com

	to run:

	$ COMM 300 30.125

	FWIW, another disclaimer.  I found a one cent difference between
	the actual commision I was charged on a trade, and what I got
	with the program.  My guess is Waterhouse rounds any fractional
	penny up to a whole penny, while the program rounds down any faction
	less than a 1/2 penny.

	Just a warning to anyone who uses Waterhouse.  Always check
	the commision charged as listed on the trad confirmation.
	Today I received a trade confirmation with a commision that
	was about $30 more than it should have been.  They are
	crediting my account, but have no explaination as to how
	it happened.

	On other Waterhouse, Waterhouse itself is a publically traded
	company, and a analyst that fund managers listen to upgraded
	Waterhouse last week and Waterhouses stock has had a nice gain
	since.

Re: 946.0
>       Anybody out there use TradeDirect with Waterhouse Securities? I've
>     had nothing but trouble with it for the last 1-2 months. I've called
>     and complained but nothing seems to have gotten any better. Anyone else
>     experiencing problems with it?

	I've had nothing but trouble from TradeDirect since March of this
	year!  The problem appears to be that more of their customers
	are now using it, and the existing TradeDirect system didn't
	seem to scale well.

	However for months now they've been telling me they are putting
	in place a *new* TradeDirect system.  Well that system is now
	in place, but it's still only in trial use, and only by their
	customers in Texas.  I've been told *maybe* December for them
	to completely switch everyone over to the new system.

	FWIW, it appears Waterhouse is now venturing into TV ads!
	I just saw one on CNN HN!  Seeing Waterhouse is also publically
	traded, I wonder if this will help ....

	Well they now officially have their web site online.  However
	it's pretty boring.  You can sign up for the free newsletter
	(should be an email copy) and request forms or open an account.

		http://www.waterhouse.com/

    re .22
    
    Our investment club uses Waterhouse as our brokerage and one of the
    members just sent out mail regarding this.
    
    According to his mail, the $12 commission is just an introductory offer
    that is good until March 31, after that I don't know.  Also, there is a
    restriction that you need $5000 in your account to use the web-trade
    service.
    
    It will be nice, though, to be able to get real-time info on-line.
    
    /Susan
    
    

BTW, the Waterhouse WebBroker $12 commission is until March 31, *1998*.
Just used it today for the first time (after reading about it here) to
place an order - not too bad but their server seems slow. By the time I
input the order to the time I could check the order status, it was
filled (about 1 1/2 minutes).

-Jeremy

    They are going to be having two services.
    One is web based - another is a dial-in.  I just applied for the
    dial-in thinking that it will perhaps be a little more secure.
    
    The restriction isn't that you have to have $5000 in an account to do
    this - but that monthly fees are waived if you do.  The $5000 can be
    any combination of assets in your account.
    
    For dial-in - they give you the first 30 minutes free.  After that -
    you get an additional 12 minutes for each trade.  If you have no
    credits then I believe they charge something like $.25/minute.

Thanks for putting this in here.  I just enabled my accounbt.
when you do this, you change your commission schedule for "live"
brokers from 35 bucks to 45.  cannot do stop orders, fill/kill
orders, pink sheets, canadian, bonds, and a few others that did not
matter to me.

i too find their web site sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow

    .27> when you do this, you change your commission schedule for "live"
    .27> brokers from 35 bucks to 45.  
    
    JC, how/when did you find this out?  I've enabled my account and there
    was no mention of this.  I even got the "thank you for sigining up for
    webBroker" letter from waterhouse and no mention there either. If this
    is actually the case I wonder how/when I would have found out (gee, why
    the extra $10 commission on that trade?).  I wonder if this also
    applies to TradeDirect trades or just "live" broker trades?
    
    Also, I assume some who have reported using webBroker are able to
    access the system (get past the webBroker home page) from within
    Digital(?).  I haven't actually been able to get past the webBroker
    home page yet - when I click on anything I see the "connecting"
    message, but eventually get a "No response" error message every time.
    Waterhouse tech support thinks it's because I'm still using Netscape
    V2.0 on my PC here at work (they think the min version which will work
    is V2.1).  I just wanted to confirm someone has been able to access the
    webBroker system from within Digital.
    
    thanks,
    \steve
    

> just wanted to confirm someone has been able to access the
> webBroker system from within Digital.

	See the previous replies, 3 of us (including myself) have.
	Whatever browser you're using needs to support HTTPS (HTTP
	over SSL), and do not forget to change your "security" proxy
	setting to a proxy server that supports SSL.

With ref to .29, is it possible to access a secure server from a client machine
inside a firewall? Does the functioning depend on the client or the server or
both? How does one find proxy servers that support SSL? If I sst "security"
proxy to a server that supports SSL can I contact any server that supports
HTTPS? are there any conditions under which the firewall could still be a
problem? I know too many questions? Thanks for any answers.

> With ref to .29, is it possible to access a secure server from a client
> machine inside a firewall?

	I guess my English must be poor :-)  For the 3rd time (the 2nd time
	being in .29), YES.

> Does the functioning depend on the client or the server or both?

	See .29 about the client.  Regarding the server, by def. yes
	(or was this a trick question? :-)

> How does one find proxy servers that support SSL?

	I did an AltaVista NOTES search
		http://altavista.notes.lkg.dec.com:8000/
	using a search string of something like:
		+url:internet_tools +SSL

> If I sst "security" proxy to a server that supports SSL can I contact any
> server that supports HTTPS?

	In theory, yes.

> are there any conditions under which the firewall could still be a problem?

	Take this to the Internet_Tools notesfile (moderator hat on here :-).

> I know too many questions?

	A question in a question?

.29> > just wanted to confirm someone has been able to access the
.29> > webBroker system from within Digital.
.29> 
.29> 	See the previous replies, 3 of us (including myself) have.
.29> 	Whatever browser you're using needs to support HTTPS (HTTP
.29> 	over SSL), and do not forget to change your "security" proxy
.29> 	setting to a proxy server that supports SSL.
    
    Jeff- 
    
    Thanks for the confirmation. The reason I asked the question was
    because I didn't think previous the notes contained the answer I was
    looking for. Yes, three of you mentioned you accessed webBroker. From
    within Digital? I assumed yes, but wanted confirmation since I was
    getting no response at all.
    
    (In fact I specifically reread your previous note to see if this was
    mentioned. If it was I didn't catch it - sorry.)
    
    anyway, thanks again.
    
    \steve
    

    Well, I read all the notes in this string, and I still don't know
    what to do to be able to access a secure site from my Digital
    workstation.  Can someone post a cookbook?  This is a constant
    annoyance.  I'm running Netscape 3.0.  Thanks.
    

> Well, I read all the notes in this string, and I still don't know
> what to do to be able to access a secure site from my Digital
> workstation.  Can someone post a cookbook?  This is a constant
> annoyance.  I'm running Netscape 3.0.  Thanks.

	I specifically did not include the names of proxy servers inside
	Digital that support SSL because it would be out of date very
	quickly.  Please use the Internet_Tools notesfile for how to
	configure your browser for this.

    Yeah, I guess it's a lot better if innumerable people spend
    innumerable amounts of time unsuccessfully searching thru
    internet_tools for how to do this.  
    

Okay, I did the work...  the string is note 341 in the Internet Tools 
Conference.  To set it up under Netscape 3.0:

	Start Netscape
	Options
	Network Preferences...
	Click the Proxies Tab
	Select Manual Proxy configuration (as you should have already)
	Click View...
	Set the Secutiry Proxy to one of the following depending upon which 
	site you are closer to:
		www-proxy.das.dec.com		8080
		www-proxy.alf.dec.com		8080
		www-proxy.cxo.dec.com		8080


John
As the moderator states this may change so check the conference for any
updates.  I do know this works since I used https with www.travelocity.com

> Yeah, I guess it's a lot better if innumerable people spend
> innumerable amounts of time unsuccessfully searching thru
> internet_tools for how to do this.  

	I guess this is the thanks I get for even posting .22 to begin with :-(