Conference nyoss1::market_investing

Yes, I'm happy to say that I bought CIFRA in October 1991 at 1.27 / share.

Although I'm a full-time DEC employee, I'm also a broker part-time
and I've been recommending CIFRA as 1 of 3 core companies for anyone
interested in capital appreciation.  (CIFRA is not blue-skyed in Mass.
so I'm not allowed to recommend it with too much enthusiasm, although
I thought it was quite a find when I found it)

Although its selling as a "penny stock", it is not a penny stock by
any means.  CIFRA is the second largest company in Mexico and is the
dominant retail firm in that country.  You're right, they have NO debt,
sales are about $2 billion US, and they're growing like Wal-mart at
25%+ annually (in fact, they have a strategic management agreement with
Wal-mart).

I think the main attraction here is:

1) At 1.27/share the P/E ratio was about 10 - not unusual for a Mexican
   stock but you'd never see a P/E ratio like that in our market on a 
   large-cap company consistently growing at 25%+.  There is room for
   tremendous multiple expansion leveraging the earnings growth.
   (Incidentally, CIFRA is due to release earnings this coming Monday)

2) Kind of following up on the P/E multiple expansion idea... if you've
   followed the fortunes of TelMex now listed on the NYSE you know that
   the stock has become the darling of Wall Street.  TelMex is the largest
   company in Mexico (their AT&T) and the multiple on that stock has
   really expanded this past year as investors learn the "Mexico story"
   and see that tremendous growth selling so cheaply.
   CIFRA will likely apply for NYSE listing this year - currently it
   is a pink sheet stock.

Good luck!  I'm certainly hoping for the best.
(That "no commission" thing has me wondering.  Are you getting it at
 the market price?  Call me if you want to verify the current quote)

    Re: .0
    CIFRA as mentioned a couple of times in the Nightly Business Report and
    other business news shows. They are teaming up with WALMART to enhance
    their technology.
    
    Re: .1
    What do you mean by part-time borker! Any regullations or certificatons
    etc.  Appreciate, if you can throw some light.
    
    /raja

    RE: .1
    I'm a little suspicious of $2 a share price. The Bowser Report started
    following CIFRA ADR's in its Sept 91 issue. Bid as $1.25, Ask at $1.29
    om Sept 5, with 25 market makers (that's a goodly number to keep
    Bid/Ask Spread low.)
    He reports the 2/3/92 Ask as $1.37. Has the stock gone up 50% since
    then???
    
    Other info:         Book = $0.21 per share
                Annual Sales = $2456M
    	   Annual Net Income = $ 170M
          Shares Outstanding =  3200M,  so earnings per share = $0.085
    
    Bowser like's the stock but warns Success attracts competition and the
    shares are carried on the pink sheets, so you are very dependent on
    your broker for timely information.
    
    Does anyone have a recent Bid/Ask on the ADR's?
    
    John K

    
    The current quote (this morning @9:30) was $1.83-$1.88 bid/asked.
    What does it mean that the stock is trading "on the pink sheet"?
    
    Peter

Re: .4
Thanks for the current quote - saves me a phone call.
(It was over $2 a few days ago)
"On the pink sheets" means there is not a NASDAQ ticker symbol for it
so you cannot look it up on the quote machine.  A broker needs to call
the market makers (those firms that "make a market" in the stock)
to get the latest buy - sell prices or to make a trade.  S+P prints 
(literally) pink sheets every morning with the last prices of these stocks
and the names of the firms that make a market in them - with phone numbers.

Re: .2
Last fall, I obtained all the licenses (Series 7 & 63) that any full-time 
broker is required to have.  I work out of my home in the evening - and
I'm just slowly building my business without any pressure to meet quotas.
My client accounts are maintained by Wertheim Schroder in NYC and protected
by SIPC.  (If I'm allowed a little plug...my commissions are even lower
than the major discount brokerages like Charles Schwab - I think I provide
real value and I'm enjoying myself doing it)

    >has (Cifra) really run up 50%
    
    Yes, I've been following it since the middle of january, when it was
    $1.31
    
    Cifra has 3 different issues, the A, B, and C shares, each selling for
    a slightly different price.
    
    Cifra pulled back yesterday because the earnings announcement of 6.6
    cents a share was less than predicted (about 9 cents).
    
    This stock has to be the most highly touted issue in history!
    Everywhere I turn, people are recommending it. Here, 2 brokers, and the
    stock BBS on Prodigy (tm). According to a scoreboard kept on
    Prodigy(tm), participants there hold about 4 MILLION bucks worth.

RE:  .1

>>Although I'm a full-time DEC employee, I'm also a broker part-time
>>and I've been recommending CIFRA as 1 of 3 core companies for anyone
>>interested in capital appreciation.  
	
	Would you be willing to share with us info about the other
2 companies you're recommending?

	How easy is it to but a pink sheet issue like CIFRA? Do you
have to purchase in blocks of 1,000 shares?  How soon will it be listed
on NASDAQ or NYSE?

Thanks!

Mac

    RE: .1
    Dido (") - would you be willing to share with us info about the
    other 2 componies you are recommending?
    
    Can anybody post the prices of the different shares offered by CIFRA?
    
    I would like to add that my broker is offering the stock at no commision
    because he is trying to build his clientell. He stated to me about
    three months ago that he would occasionally come across some stocks that
    he would be able to offer at no commision which he would let me in on for
    doing business with him. After all he is making decent bucks from me on the
    other commissioned investements.
    
    How soon before its listed on the NASDAQ market anybody know?
    
    
    Frank
    
    

RE: .6

>This stock has to be the most highly touted issue in history!

OK guys, cut it out, you're scaring me.  I know a couple other brokers
who love this stock, but I'm still under the impression that the story
is relatively untold.  If I'm wrong then naturally I'd be a bit worried.

The stock slipped today....3:00pm quote was 1.71 - 1.76

I'm hanging in there - awaiting US listing and more worldwide investor
recognition.  (It doesn't hurt that the Mexican economy keeps growing
in the meantime) 

RE: .7

> Would you be willing to share with us info about the other
> 2 companies you're recommending?

OK, but first let me say that I don't like the market at these levels
from a long-term perspective.  Even though the "big break" may be many
months off (I say this because monetary policy is easy and bank reserves
are very positive), I'd still keep a large chunk of cash for better
buying opportunites down the road.  (Always have some stock though -
I could be wrong with my market-timing and stock has a great long-term record)

My 3 core recommendations last fall were:  1) SLM Int'l 2) CIFRA 3) Mexico Fund

SLM was an IPO issued at 10 1/2 in November.  It's now 17 1/2.
Not as good a buy as it was, but still looks like a good purchase on a 
pullback to 15ish.  
I'm running short of time or I'd tell you more about it.  So you know what
they do...they are a toy/sporting goods company.  They own CCM hockey gear
and Buddy L toy trucks...they're growing 20+% a year.

If we have a little bit more of a pullback, call me if you want my new picks.

> How easy is it to buy a pink sheet issue like CIFRA? Do you
> have to purchase in blocks of 1,000 shares?  

Easy as any other stock really - just call your broker and then the trading
room at the brokerage makes the call to the market makers.
No minimum purchase requirement.  Don't make it too small though or the
minimum commissions will be too big a part of the total trade.

>How soon will it be listed on NASDAQ or NYSE?

No date has been set - I'm guessing summer.

    
    If anyone regulary or semiregulary phone their broker about this stock,
    could post the quote here or send me a mail?
    
    Thanks
    	Peter

    One thing to note about Cifra, and all other 'pink sheet' stocks.
    
    You might not be able to buy it from some brokers. Some states have
    what is known as the 'blue sky' law, which apparently regulates how
    much financial info the company must publish to be sold in the state.
    Mexican companies don't have to follow US accounting practices, and
    have been known to use very imaginative techniques to make themselves
    look healthy.
    Mass has it, as does California. Some brokers (S-B, from experience,
    and several others) will refuse to sell it to you.
    If yours refuses to sell it, just find another. Or, use an on-line
    service such as Schwab, Fidelity, DLJ, etc.

    Do not be mislead by the old "...and you can buy it without
    commissions" trick. All that means that a broker, typ. one working for
    a market maker, marks up the price a bit. Ask him "if I were to buy it
    and sell it right away, how much would I get per share, and would there
    be commissions." If I were a Mass. resident, I'd be extremely
    suspicious of any broker that would even mention a non-blue- skied
    issue to me. Though formerly licensed in the state, I'm not an expert
    on Mass. securities law, but as I remember soliciting business for
    non-blue-skied issues is a pretty serious offense. 
    
    Without prejudice, as a cynic and contrarian, I'd say CIFRA is a
    guaranteed way to lose money. Once the story gets on NBR, it's usually
    too late. 
    
    On the other hand, you might buy it, and in the likely event of the
    price heading towards the Mexican Republic, you can sue First New
    England Securities for fraudulently soliciting and selling you
    non-blue-skied stock. Provided FNES stays in business, you are almost
    certain to prevail and recover your losses in the stock (I forget the  
    what happens with lawyers' fees). 
    
    

RE: .12

I believe if a broker trys hard to solicit a buy for CIFRA in MA,
then they could be in hot water because it is non-blue sky.
However, I'm told it can be mentioned as an interesting buy candidate
as long as you don't try to push it on a client (which shouldn't be
done by a responsible broker anyway). The client needs to initiate the 
buying.  (At least that's what I've been told by the back office at my firm)

RE: 10    Today's quote:     1.73 - 1.80

    As of yesterday opening for B shares the price was $1.80 per.
    
    Frank

    
    re .12
    
    Why do you say that its a sure way to lose money?  I am interested in
    your reason for making such a statement.

    For what its worth, April issue of Kiplingers magazine has a highly
    bullish article on Mexico. The range of investment opportunities listed
    are (you guessed it), 6 ADR's (CIFRA being one of them) and 3 closed
    end funds (Mexico Fund, Mexico Eq & In fund and *mexico* fund, the
    first 2 are trading currently at a discount to their book value and the
    3 rd one, whose exact name escapes me is trading at a premium). The
    mexico fund has been around since 1981, while the other 2 since 1990. I
    can list the numbers for getting additional info on all the 3 funds
    (they are actually in the mag, if anyone's interested).
    
    Raja

    re: .12
    
    I agree with you on the no commision thing to a certain extent. I
    believe that a brokerage house marks up most if not all to make their
    money on top of the commisions for doing business.
    
    Even on a no commision stock offered by a broker he is making money
    to a certain mark up price by the brokerage house and the market maker.
    
    But at least if the broker is offering to save you some money by not
    charging the commision take it! I say that because the broker has a
    potential of making more money at time of traiding/selling of all the
    shares he has sold and moved (at a profit). If this happens the investor
    is happy with his profit and the broker makes his money at this time.
    
    I.E. example if the broker has traded 1 million shares at a profit his
    commision can be averaged at about 100k at this point. So in essence he
    has made more money at the back end of the offer to the reccomendation
    by not charging commisions up front. By not charging commisions he has
    traded a big quantity of shares from the business that investers have
    given him.
    
    I hope this clarifies the no commision matter. I am not a broker and I
    have an open and honest relationship with my broker, If I were to find
    out otherwise I would cut the relationship immideatly.
    
    This is a two way street you scratch my back and I'll scrath yours,
    meaning the broker has a job to do just like anything else he is paid
    exactly what he is worth, if he is making me money I will deal with him
    and he makes  his money from my business. If not then I will move on
    amd to bigger and better things. I watch my investments very carefully
    I act on his reccomendations but you need a certain amount of fortitude
    on your own to make decisions that will in the long run show you a
    profit. Thank God so far so good.
    
    Thanks for listening to me this is my .02 cents on the subject.
    
    Frank

    re: .16
    
    Yes I'm interestd in the numbers if its not to much trouble for getting
    additional info.
    
    Thanks in advance
    
    Frank

.16>    For what its worth, April issue of Kiplingers magazine has a highly
>    bullish article on Mexico. The range of investment opportunities listed
    
    Some people might take this as a sign that Mexican stocks are near a top.
    Remember:  bullishness is at a maximum when price is at its maximum.
    
      John

    The numbers for the mexico funds:
    
    Mexico Fund:		(212) 750-4200
    
    Mexico equity & Income :   	(800) 999-6726

    I called the Mexico Fund number and they said that to obtain a
    prospectus you must call Mexico - 011 525 280 1636.
    
    Does anyone know the telephone number of the Emerging Mexico Fund ?
    
    Does anyone know of a publication which has the telephone numbers for
    all closed-end funds ?
    
    Thanks.
    
    Mark

re: .21

Morningstar (adv. in Barrons and elsewhere) has a closed end fund bi-weekly
report on most funds.  You can get a 3-month subscription for $35.  I've got
my copies at home, so, I can't cite phone numbers.  The reports are excellent
and are bi-weekly with excellent overview articles as well.

    
    03/23/92 10:30 CIFRA $1.73-$1.77

    
    03/30/92 10:30 CIFRA $1.79-$1.83
    
    CIFRA also got a VERY favourable mention in this weeks BARRON.
    
    Peter

    When quoting CIFRA you should mention which class of stock the quote is
    for. There are 3 classes:
    
    A - Only Mexicans can purchase these
    
    B - The ADRs
    
    C - Non voting shares

    According to a WSJ article last Wed. Mexico's largest construction
    co. is about to make a global stock offering.
    
    The co. is Empresas ICA Sociedad Controladora and will be on the
    NYSE as an ADR. The lead manager of the offering is Morgan Stanley.
    
    Can anyone provide a telephone number for a Morgan Stanley office ?
    They aren't listed in any telephone books that I have. The NY number I
    did manage to find is now giving the recording that something is wrong
    with the line.
    
    Anyone know of any other brokers participating in this offering ?
    
    Mark
    

re .27:

What I want to know is --




				what's this "Bimbo"?

	Re. last several

	How come:

	1. Sometimes they only show the closing prices, whereas sometimes they
	show both the closing prices, and the change, and  yet some other times
	they show the previous two closing prices? Does the DJ format change
	daily?

	2. The closing price of CIFRA B on 4/7 was 5200 (.31), and on 4/8, it
	was 5025 (.32), yet the change shown on 4/8 is 75 and not 175!

	Is this a problem with DJ reporting service, or with DOWVISION_TEST?

	Finally, this note should be renamed Mexican Stock Watch or CIFRA Watch.
	There are hardly any good tips there :-).

	-amitabh.

    
    
    A couple of months ago my broker called me and said I have a hot one
    for you. He procceded to tell me that Quality Products Inc. a NASDAQ
    stock was selling for about $2.00 and within 3-4 weeks it was going to
    double. Not quite 4 weeks later it did just that good thing I bought
    1000 shares a decent profit.
    
    Last week my broker called me again Quality Products Inc. has slipped
    down to about just under $2.00 a share again and the same advice buy
    and in 3-4 weeks it will be in the range of $4.00 again. He has done
    this for me many times with other stocks also. I bought 2000 shares.
    
    The symbol is QYPI if anyone is interested give Barney Kawalski of
    First New England Securities at 1-800-877-6394 a call and tell him Frank
    Cervone sent you he will take good care of you.
    
    May you all prosper
    Frank
    
    
                                                          

    re >                     <<< Note 100.36 by WFOV12::CERVONE >>>
       >                           -< WELL HERE'S ONE!!!!! >-

    I must have missed something, here.
    
>    double. Not quite 4 weeks later it did just that good thing I bought
>    1000 shares a decent profit.
    
    Did you then sell?  If so, you made a nifty profit, God bless.  If not,
    then you made nothing, you only increased your networth on paper. 
    Actually, your networth would have decreased by the amount of the
    commission.
    
>    Last week my broker called me again Quality Products Inc. has slipped
>    down to about just under $2.00 a share again and the same advice buy
>    and in 3-4 weeks it will be in the range of $4.00 again. He has done
>    this for me many times with other stocks also. I bought 2000 shares.
    
    Again, if you previously sold and took out your profit, go for it and
    sell when you have doubled your investment again.  It may be gambling,
    but if it works, just ride the wave and jump off when it stops working.
    Besides, the commission keeps the broker off unemployment. :-)
    
    Of course, if you previously DID NOT sell out to take your profit, then
    you are back where you began minus the commission, and he is just after
    you to buy again (he makes $$$); sometimes called "churning" in less
    polite circles.
    
    FWIW
    
                                                          

    

    RE: .37
    
    Sorry for the Delay!
    
    	Quality Products Inc. with respect to its multipress division,
    manufactures industrial hudraulic bench presses, floor presses,
    (together referred to as "Multipresses" herein) and accessories used
    with Multipresses. The company is the largest producer of industrial
    hydraulic "C" frame presses in the United States. All the presses they
    produce are widely used in the Unites States by componies such as
    Mcdonalds and other food industries componies, The US govenment military
    and armaments and arsenals industry, appliance and ceramic industries
    etc. The "Multipress is the only "C" press approved by the U.S.D.A.for
    the purpose to provide pressure to form and bond portions of flaked and
    blended frozen meats, poultry, fish and other food products.
    
    	Ther price moves so because it has reached a full and final
    settlement in a law suite with the Huntington National Bank Of all
    disputes existing between the two parties. In exchange for a cash
    payment of $750,000 Huntington National Bank will surrender to the
    company all of Huntingtons interest in 68,200 shares of class B
    preffered stock convertible to 1,364,000 common shares, 3.3 million
    class A preffered shares, 2.9 million series a subordinated debentures,
    and a cognovit note and judgement in principal amount of $500,000, held
    by the bank. The aggregate value of the collateral is estimated by
    management at just over $8 million.
    
    	Not to mention an increase in profit of .46 per share conpared to a
    .01 to .02 loss from 1991. Including an extraordinary gain of $913,591
    or 16 cents a share on extinguishment of debt.
    
    This is just part of the News story that has been forwarded to me by my
    broker.
    
    By the way the act of entering this agreement shall not be onsidered an
    admission by either QYPI AND HNB of any liabilitiesin connection to the
    litigation concurrently being dismissed. HNB has indicated that its
    primary reason for entering the settlement agreement was the impairement
    by others of the value of the collateral HNB held.
    
    If youy are interested it should be moving rather quickly now that the
    settlement has ended.
    
    RE: .38
    
    	No you did not miss anything I did in fact sell the first time and
    realized a nifty profit. And when it dropped due to the above I jumped
    back in at 1 15/16 plus commisions of course. And hopefully in a
    couple more weeks when the announcement hits the papers of the
    earnings everyone that is interested in QYPI will jump on the band
    wagen and it should jump back into its $4 price range for another nifty
    profit.
    
    Frank                
    

    Hi,
       What's the latest price and info. on CIFRA?
                                 --Dave

    Its published ever Monday in the WSJ (in a section titled ADRs).
    Monday it was 5350 pesos; unchanged from the previous week.
    

     The latest dollar quote for the CIFRA ADRs this morning was:

     $1.64 bid - 1.69 ask

     It's at the lower end of its consolidation range that it has been
     in since the run-up early in the year.  They own a chain of 
     restaurants around Los Angeles and maybe there is some concern
     about that (though there shouldn't be given that its a small part of
     their business and they will probably be uneffected anyway)

re                     <<< Note 100.42 by MCIS1::BONVALLAT >>>
                       -< CIFRA quote as of 5/1/92 11am >-


>     The latest dollar quote for the CIFRA ADRs this morning was:
>
>     $1.64 bid - 1.69 ask

So, what is it now?