Conference 7.286::star_trek

    
    re: -1
    
    If the shield worked as it did, how come it hasn't been used except for
    the one time when that Borg hybrid ship was after Beverly in the 2
    parter with Data/Lore and Hugh? I guess it isn't widely used unless
    they fly into the corona of a sun?
    
    I missed the one with Quark selling his body parts when he died....I
    haven't caught all of the episodes in awhile...been trying to stay up
    with B5, and other shows, like Dark Skies when it is shown regularly...
    
    
    

>>    In
>>    the episode Crusher was not allowed to do an autopsy on the Furengi
>>    because the furengi body had to be buried as a whole, however in DS9
>>    Body parts Quark was going to sell parts of his body. Any comment.

I believe Quark was to be cremated, and small amounts of his ashes sold, rather
than selling parts, specifically.  If the Ferengi scientist were to be
*cremated* whole, then it is consistent.

The "Furengi" must be what you get if you cross Worf and Quark.  :-)

						Brian

    actually he was to be freeze dried, and sliced up.

    Don't even get me started on the inconsistencies in the new star trek
    series.
    
    The day STNG ended was the saddest day of my life.  However the last
    episode definitely wrapped up the series very well.  The triangle
    between Worf, Deanne and Ricker was creative and I was shocked to find
    out the screen writers for DS9 decided to disregard all that and make
    Worf and Dack a couple.  That definitely turned my stomach up side
    down.  Another inconsistencies that pratically threw me off my seat is
    in the new ST movie where the Borgs, the single-minded race all of a
    sudden has a "ruler".  When did that happen?!  We all know that the
    Borgs is a race without leaders; they work as a single mind, no
    individuality.  What the heck was that all about?
    

>>    The day STNG ended was the saddest day of my life.

You've led a charmed life, if that's the saddest thing that has ever happened
to you.

						Brian

   >> >>    The day STNG ended was the saddest day of my life.
    
    >> You've led a charmed life, if that's the saddest thing that has ever
    >> happened
    >> to you.
    
    Is that your best shot?

>>    Is that your best shot?

No, it isn't.  Sorry, I didn't mean to offend.  Your comment seemed odd, but it
was of course not meant to be taken literally.  I didn't presume to do so, I
was merely attempting to add a little perspective and humor.

You know, like when someone says, "I'll just die if I don't get one of those
things," and someone else starts discussing funeral arrangements.

						Brian

RE                       <<< Note 1084.4 by AVANT::CHOU >>>

>The triangle
>    between Worf, Deanne and Ricker was creative and I was shocked to find
>    out the screen writers for DS9 decided to disregard all that and make
>    Worf and Dack a couple.  

  That's not an inconsistency. It's not at all uncommon for people who have
romantic interests to become involved with someone else especially if they
are transferred to a remote location far from their original love interest.

>Another inconsistencies that pratically threw me off my seat is
>    in the new ST movie where the Borgs, the single-minded race all of a
>    sudden has a "ruler".  When did that happen?!  We all know that the
>    Borgs is a race without leaders; they work as a single mind, no
>    individuality.  What the heck was that all about?
    
  No, we don't "know" the Borgs were without a ruler, they just seemed to be
without a ruler from the evidence the Federation had. In fact the Federation
knew very little about who the Borg were, where they came from and what made
them tick.

  Also the queen was not a ruler, as I recall she said she "brought order to
chaos" or some such thing. She may have been more of a focal point of which
the bulk of the collective was not aware.

  George

    If you remember the last episode of STTNG, you would know that Deanna
    was said to die before any of the Senior officers and Worf and Ricker
    "hated" each other because Ricker blamed Worf for him not been able to
    get back with Deanna.  It doesn't make sense that they never took care
    of that little event (Deanna dying) before dropping this relationship
    between Worf and Dack on our laps.  If I'm not misaking, DS9 is in the
    same time period as STTNG (or very close); unless Deanna died right
    after the STTNG ended, I don't see how Worf and Dack can get together.
    As for the Borg Queen in the movie; she was quite a surprise and goes
    against the very definition of how the Borgs function.  The only time
    that the Borgs actually had a leader was when they were having inner
    wars and Data's evil brother (was his name Loun or something?) took
    advantage of the situation to become the leader of one of the groups. 
    I guess there're always ways to explain why and how a Borg Queen who
    says "I" and "me" can suddenly exist and how Worf and Deanna's
    relationship is never mentioned again; I personally feel that there are
    alot of things that "they" should at least take care of (maybe during a
    conversation among the involved characters) before "changing the
    course".        

                       <<< Note 1084.9 by AVANT::CHOU >>>

>    If you remember the last episode of STTNG, you would know that Deanna
>    was said to die before any of the Senior officers and Worf and Ricker
>    "hated" each other because Ricker blamed Worf for him not been able to
>    get back with Deanna.  

  Deanna was suppose to have died in a Q episode where Picard was flashing both
forward and back in time and the Enterprise-E from three different periods had
to save the universe and man kind. It was never made clear that the "future"
represented was the real future. In fact we know that would be impossible since
the Enterprise-E can't be around after Picard retires.

  At any rate even if a guy is crazy about a woman that doesn't preclude him
from taking up with another woman at some remote outpost, especially if he
doesn't think there's much chance of his 1st romance working out. Nor would it
preclude him from resenting someone he felt was responsible for keeping him
and the 1st woman apart.

>    As for the Borg Queen in the movie; she was quite a surprise and goes
>    against the very definition of how the Borgs function.  

  She doesn't go against the "very definition of how the Borgs function.". She
went against the Federation's understanding of how the Borgs function. Nowhere
in Star Trek TNG or anywhere else had we see much more than a few battle groups
sent out by the Borg.

  Imagine of some remote population on earth was trying to judge U.S. Society
and all they saw of us were a few Marine Battalions. Do you think they would
truly understand what American Society is all about? More likely they'd think
we were ultra militarists and our national motto was "Semper Fi".

>The only time
>    that the Borgs actually had a leader was when they were having inner
>    wars and Data's evil brother (was his name Loun or something?) took
>    advantage of the situation to become the leader of one of the groups. 

  Again, how do you know this was the only time this happened? It was the only
time the Federation saw it happen after seeing one particle of Borg behavior.
And if it happened once with Lars, how do you know it couldn't happen again
with the Queen? 

  George

>    Data's evil brother (was his name Loun or something?)

His name was Lore.  You know, "Data" as in facts, "Lore" as in legends, tales,
or fiction.  ("Folklore," for example.)

						Brian

Actually, I think it would make a good episode to have Deanna show up on DS9 to 
surprise Worf.  She and Dax can go off in a corner giggling and compare notes
while Worf sits in Quark's drowning his sorrows in prune juice.


JAM

    
    And to get even Deanna starts dating Quark...
    

    The Borg queen supposedly existed when Picard was assimilated (he
    remembered it when he first spoke to her in First Contact).  However
    there was no mention of her or anything remotely close to the existance
    of such individuality in the Borgs.  So Picard just lost his memory
    after the assimilation?  How come THAT wasn't mentioned during the
    episode?  Okay, so maybe he just lost his memory without Dr. Krusher
    detecting it; it happens to people who have gone through serious
    trauma.  However, the Borg ship was eventually destroyed at the end of
    that episode, so what happened to the Queen?  There was no idication
    that anyone has escaped from the "cube"; was she remotely logged onto
    the computer system on the ship and was not affected by the explosion? 
    There are just too many assumptions.
    The episode you're talking about IS the last episode (with the
    anti-time).  Deanna did not die during that episode.  The 3 time
    periods were the past when Picard first took over the Enterprise, the
    present when Worf and Deanna are together and the future, after
    Deanna's death.  They did not show how she died and I don't remember if
    it was mentioned what she died of.  You're right in saying that Worf
    could've just dumped (or got dumped by) Deanna when he came to DS9; but
    that information was never taken care of.  From the intensity of the
    grudge between Worf and Riker I would think that there was much more to
    it than what we are seeing in DS9.  What was Worf doing in DS9 AND on
    the Enterprise E anyways?  Has he learned the ability to be at two
    places at the same time?  It didn't seem that he was with Deanna in
    First Contact; so is that before or after or during his time in DS9
    with Dack?
    How would you feel if all of a sudden the writers decided that the
    changelings (which, like the Borgs, are one of the races which the
    Federation don't have a whole lot of information on or encounters with)
    are actually related to Earthlings, that they are just a much more
    advanced us who were rescued by even more advanced aliens to another
    planet when the volcano erroptions detroyed most of the living beings
    on earth?  That sounds pretty exciting right?  Except I have a hard
    time accepting such a sudden change of definitions.
    

    >    Data's evil brother (was his name Loun or something?)
    
    >> His name was Lore.  You know, "Data" as in facts, "Lore" as in legends,
    >> tales, or fiction.  ("Folklore," for example.)
    
    Thanks, I didn't know that.  Does anyone remember the name of the Borg
    Queen?
    

    The day I found out the Borg Queen's name was Debbie was the saddest
    day of my life.

    Debbie Does Borg?

RE                       <<< Note 1084.14 by AVANT::CHOU >>>

>    The Borg queen supposedly existed when Picard was assimilated (he
>    remembered it when he first spoke to her in First Contact).  However
>    there was no mention of her or anything remotely close to the existance
>    of such individuality in the Borgs.  So Picard just lost his memory
>    after the assimilation?  How come THAT wasn't mentioned during the
>    episode?  

  How would they have known if Picard had lost his memory of the Borg queen? If
Picard didn't mention her they would have had no way to know she existed and
hence no way to know he forgot about her. 

>However, the Borg ship was eventually destroyed at the end of
>    that episode, so what happened to the Queen?  There was no indication
>    that anyone has escaped from the "cube"; was she remotely logged onto
>    the computer system on the ship and was not affected by the explosion? 
>    There are just too many assumptions.

  No, it's the other way around. As with most "nit" talk there are too many
assumptions by people claiming inconsistencies. It is quite possible that
the Borg Queen left the ship before the final battle while the Enterprise E
was chasing the Cube toward Earth.

>    The episode you're talking about IS the last episode (with the
>    anti-time).  Deanna did not die during that episode.  The 3 time
>    periods were the past when Picard first took over the Enterprise, the
>    present when Worf and Deanna are together and the future, after
>    Deanna's death.  They did not show how she died and I don't remember if
>    it was mentioned what she died of.  

  Fine, still it's clear that the "future" they showed was not the real future
since we know Deanna outlived the Enterprise E.

>You're right in saying that Worf
>    could've just dumped (or got dumped by) Deanna when he came to DS9; but
>    that information was never taken care of.  From the intensity of the
>    grudge between Worf and Riker I would think that there was much more to
>    it than what we are seeing in DS9.  

  Fine, but again that's not an inconsistency. Just because they don't chose
to explain something that doesn't mean it's not going on. There is nothing in
DS9 today precluding Worf from having strong feelings toward Deanna. It's not
at all unusual that he doesn't express those feelings with Dax around. In fact
it would be stupid for him to express those feelings with Dax around. Combat
is one thing, Hell's fury is quite another.

>What was Worf doing in DS9 AND on
>    the Enterprise E anyways?  Has he learned the ability to be at two
>    places at the same time?  It didn't seem that he was with Deanna in
>    First Contact; so is that before or after or during his time in DS9
>    with Dack?

  If you'll remember, in the movie they rescued Worf from the Defiant and went
out of their way to explain that it wouldn't be hard to repair. Clearly Sisko
sent him and the Defiant to Earth to help defend against the Borg. Again, just
because they didn't mention it on DS9, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
There's lots that happens on DS9 that we don't see. Ever see Sisko make a trip
to the head? Ever see anyone make a trip to the head? Ever see a head on DS9?
Is it an inconsistency that people on DS9 don't go to the bathroom just because
we haven't seen it? 

>    How would you feel if all of a sudden the writers decided that the
>    changelings (which, 
>    are actually related to Earthlings, 
>That sounds pretty exciting right?  Except I have a hard
>    time accepting such a sudden change of definitions.

  Again, that wouldn't be a change of definition. They have never shown us a
"definition" of where the changelings came from so what would it contradict?

  George

> There's lots that happens on DS9 that we don't see. Ever see Sisko make a trip
> to the head? Ever see anyone make a trip to the head? Ever see a head on DS9?
> Is it an inconsistency that people on DS9 don't go to the bathroom just because
> we haven't seen it? 

No, but I've seen Sinclair and Garibaldi do it on Babylon 5! (Make a trip
to the head, that is.  Any other implications are in your own mind!)
And we've seen Sheridan and Garibaldi in the head too, come to 
think of it.  Overall a much more consistent show.

In my opinion, of course.

;-)

PeterT

    
    Actually, given the recent push in the flood of TV shows to try to
    work in having their male characters be shown discussing their case in
    front of urinals given any excuse to at all lately, I can do without
    yet more scenes of male characters chatting while doing their business.
    This is added value?

    To show characters 'in action' at bathrooms must be something only
    recently allowed. It's the hottest trend in programming. It seems
    like almost every show has to include at least one "men at urinals"
    scene today in some behind the scenes competition with the other shows.
    What demographic studies told them to push these scenes I wonder.
    Charmin must be involved somewhere...
    
    

  Of course technology being what it is in the 24th century, maybe there is
some sort of miniature chamber pot with a built in transporter that "flushes"
into the recycle bin. Or for that matter, maybe it's built into the uniforms. 

  Be a real drag if it broke down and went into overflow during utilization.

  George

    re: DS9/Worf/Deanna  
    I'd like to see Mrs. Troi show up and give Worf "what-for" for cheating
    on her daughter!
    
    janetb.

          re .9

    >> If you remember the last episode of STTNG, you would know that Deanna
    >> was said to die before any of the Senior officers and Worf and Ricker
    >> "hated" each other because Ricker blamed Worf for him not been able to
    >> get back with Deanna.  It doesn't make sense that they never took care
    >> of that little event (Deanna dying) before dropping this relationship
    >> between Worf and Dack on our laps.

          One of the things that Picard had said at the end was that he had
          told everyone about what he had been though in the future so that
          they would NOT make the mistakes that he knew about.  Another 
          point is the future can be changed.  Q had stated a few times
          that the future was not set.  Our choices are what make our futures.
          If the one in "possible" future Deanna could have slipped on a bar of
          soap in the shower and broke her neck 8^(  but in another "possible"
          future she could have also not taken a shower that specific day and 
          it would never happen.  Very simple explanation, but if you start 
          on that "possible futures" stuff you would go crazy!!

          About Deanna, Worf, & Dax.  You are really trying to over think all
          this.  8^)  Try watching soaps, the inconsistencies would drive
          you REALLY CRAZY!!!  Maybe that's why I can overlook some things. 

          
                              Terry 
          
          

    Still though, the inconsistencies in the new UFP scenarios are small
    compared to the ones in TOS. Look at all the consistencies there are
    and the occasional inconsistencies can be overlooked.

    The borg queen is the "manifestation" of the collective consciousness
    of the borg.  It would be a mistake to identify "her" with the body she
    occupied in first contact.  The collective consciousness could probably
    manifest in any member of the collective, which is why the destruction
    of the cube, in TNG would not preclude "her" from manifesting again in
    first contact.  The vesel which manifested the collective consciousness
    was destoyed, not the collective consciousness...

The inconsistency of the Worf/Troi relationship has bothered me, too.
If the shows were better written, there would have been some mention of it.
As it is, there is this major loose thread still lying around, and I doubt
that anything will ever be done about it.

I think the Star Trek writers and producers need to understand that some of
us watch Star Trek for more than just the technology.

     Carol

> I think the Star Trek writers and producers need to understand that some of
> us watch Star Trek for more than just the technology.

I believe they do.  I believe they write it for a lot more than the technology,
too.  I don't believe that they spend a lot of time working over cross-show
loose threads, however.

Robert H. Wolfe, one of the key writers on DS9, has been responding a lot in
some usenet group, and one of the web sites I peruse posts summaries of his
remarks.  They are quite interesting.  I come away from them with some major
themes:
 - They are trying to write good drama in the context of a Star Trek show;
 - They are knowledgeable writers;
 - They sometimes do things because they make production easier;
 - They sometimes drop things that don't play well in the ratings;
 - They make mistakes.

The holo-com system is an example of #3, regardless of what tech spin anybody
wants to put on it.  They don't need the "blank wall" set, and it makes the
acting easier.

							Brian

    In the book _Imzadi_, Deanna dies shortly after the end of the TNG
    finale, and Riker goes downhill because he couldn't save her.

What is the "blank wall set" that the holo-com saves them?  Do you mean what
they would use to shoot a face in the tiny little communicator screens?

Burns

>> What is the "blank wall set" that the holo-com saves them?  Do you mean what
>> they would use to shoot a face in the tiny little communicator screens?

Sorry, I was incorrectly mixing two things in one phrase.

When they use a regular communicator screen, they have a face and a background. 
They need something for the background.  That is a one-wall set.

When the other people are talking to whoever is on the communicator screen, the
actors are in reality talking to a blank screen, and attempting to give
reactions to whatever will be put in there later.

With the holo-com, they can actually have the actors together on the set,
playing off each other, and the don't need the one-wall set just for one scene.

						Brian

Aha.  Interesting.  Maybe easier/cheaper FX to insert the correct background
too?

Burns

RE        <<< Note 1084.26 by SAPPHO::DUBOIS "Hailstorm Project Leader" >>>

>The inconsistency of the Worf/Troi relationship has bothered me, too.
>If the shows were better written, there would have been some mention of it.
>As it is, there is this major loose thread still lying around, and I doubt
>that anything will ever be done about it.

  I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why this is an inconsistency.

  If you are a guy, for what ever reason the relationship you want is
going nowhere, and you are stationed in a remote place with an attractive
lady, the last thing you are going to do is talk about "tying up loose ends"
with your remote heart throb.

  Remember the Steven Stills song ...

    "If you can't be, 
     with the one you love,
     love the one your with ..."

  Ok, so that's a little '60s but then Star Trek does not take place in the
Conservative '90s.

  George

George, in well-written books and shows, one thread is not dropped and
another, which is in opposition to the first, is not started without
*some* explanation.  Is it possible for the two to happen?  Sure, but
the explanation should be there as to *why* it happened.

It should have been addressed in the beginning, when Worf came onto DS9.
That was the appropriate time and place for it.  It could have been in a
personal log, or a momento, or any way they wanted it, to indicate that
either 1) Deanna was dead, or 2) they broke up.  

If Miles suddenly showed up engaged or married to another woman, wouldn't
you want to know what happened to Keiko?  Wouldn't that be really *odd*
if there was no mention of it?  Worf and Troi were an item.  Worf had learned
that in other time threads (whatever they called it), he and Deanna Troi
had successfully built a life of love together.  He pursues the relationship,
and she responds.  We (and he) learned that in a future, they became serious
about one another.  Then, suddenly, it's as if she never existed. 

If they wanted to tie this loose end up, they could do so still.  I'm sure
the writers have much more imagination than I, and could work something
out.  Mostly, I lament the fact that they had not *already* tied this up,
long ago.

      Carol

>> George, in well-written books and shows, one thread is not dropped and
>> another, which is in opposition to the first, is not started without
>> *some* explanation.  Is it possible for the two to happen?  Sure, but
>> the explanation should be there as to *why* it happened.

While I agree with you that it would be nice if the thread were tied up, I
cannot agree that this example constitutes proof that the shows are not well
written.

You appear to consider the entirety of Star Trek as a single entity, and you
are objecting to a thread in one series not being resolved in another series
involving one of the same characters.  Failing to resolve this thread is a
mistake, an oversight, but not poor writing.  If a writer fails to resolve
threads within a single episode, then *that* is poor writing, but outside of a
single episode, many other issues come into play (see below).

You also appear to be judging the writing of series based on a story incident
that could appear once in a single episode.  I don't think this is reasonable. 
Take an episode with Worf: "Looking for Par'Mach..."  Was it well written? 
Apparently not, because the issue about Deanna was not resolved.  But what if,
in "Rules of Engagement," it had been clearly explained that Deanna was dead
and Worf had gone through the standard Klingon ritual of mourning, and was now
free to pursue other romantic interests?  Is "Looking for Par'Mach" written
well now?  How about if they tie the thread up later?  What's changed?

Clearly, Worf is now available.  They made a mistake by not explaining how that
happened (much the same as the Kes-Neelix off-screen breakup on Voyager; the
Voyager one is worse, IMHO, because it is a reference in the same series).  But
to say that DS9 is poorly written *for that reason alone* is unfair, I think.
(You might, of course, have other reasons to think the show is poorly written!)

As to why they haven't resolved the Deanna issue, here are some thoughts:
 - They are still negotiating an episode with Marina Sirtis, so they don't know
   whether to kill her off or have them break up;
 - Fans have submitted too many suggestions that were inadvertently read by
   the writers, so they dropped the whole story line to avoid being sued;
 - The writers forgot;
 - It was written in but cut for time considerations;
 - The writers did not consider Worf's previous romantic entanglements to be
   a significant part of the story line to be carried over from TNG;
 - The writers disagree on how to handle this issue.

Frankly, I'm curious why Alexander hasn't been mentioned.

						Brian

  Showing a Navy guy in a new port and having a fling with a new woman without
talking about the old one hardly seems like an oversight to me, especially in
this case where the old relationship never got started and the new relationship
seems mostly physical. There have been cases where navy or merchant marine
types have been married to women in different ports for years before anyone
found out. 

  Also, under what circumstances would this discussion take place? Other than
Worf, O'Brien is the only other crew member that knows Troy and he left the
Enterprise before the romance started. For Worf, who doesn't exactly wear his
heart on his sleeve, to bring this up and talk it over with O'Brien would be
a real inconstancy.

  It seems to me that the conflict between Worf and Riker in the future was
based on a time line in which Worf became far more involved with Troy than
he did before leaving the Enterprise. There just wasn't that much going on
between them by the time he arrived at DS9 in the "real" time line.

  George

I'd like to point out that a discussion of Troi being dead is moot.  In 
First Contact, Worf, who was already assigned to DS9 is on the Enterprise while
Troi is on Earth, very much alive, so whatever made Worf available had nothing
to do with Troi's death.

JAM

    And in First Contact - Troi seems friendly to Worf but certainly not
    passionate, nor the woman scorned.  So maybe they broke up by mutual
    agreement - maybe Deanna decides the bruises of Klingon lovemaking
    aren't worth the effort :^). Maybe she found someone new and kicked
    Worf out of her life.
    
    And,  Worf is pressuring Dax about marriage - doesn't sound like
    this is just a fling, not to mention any Klingon honor code about
    cheating on a lover.
    
    I agree with a previous note - where is Alexander and what's become of
    him? They haven't even mentioned worf taking leave to visit him or an
    incoming letter, if they can't get the actor.
    
    janetb.

  I believe they said Alexander was on Earth with some other relatives. 

  Again, it's not unusual for Navy officers to leave dependents home,
especially if it's a combat area as DS9 has seemed to become. 

  George

    but they would at least mention them occassionally - you would hope

I think he's been retconn'd out of existance...

PeterT

    I thought I remembered one casual reference to Alexander being with
    Worf's Earth parents.

    aren't Alexanxer and Nog the same actor?

Alexander is played by Brian Bonsall.  Nog is played by Aron Eisenberg (who is
married and became a father recently).