Conference noted::equitation

    
    	Considering she's had several owners in a short time, it's
    	going to take her a while before she trusts you, and that's
    	what she needs before she'll leave the barn wilingly. 
    
    	Maybe if you could have someone else ride `Bonehead' and
    	you take her out on the trail with him until she feels more
    	comfortable...(sorry, I can't remember what Beonhead's real
    	name is! :) )                         
    
    	I'm sure you'll get some good suggestions from everybody...
    
    	Sherry
    

    Bonehead = Willie
    
    That's what I've been doing when I can get someone to ride Willie...but
    mostly I'm alone.
    
    Caryl

    Caryl ...
    
    try taking willie out and tieing him to a tree and let him relax with
    some grass (tie him high enough he cant hung up)
    
    and then i would work her (get her tired ....) and then take her out..
    and have someone tend to willie
    she sounds like she is sour.. I think maybe people felt the horse wasnt 
    worth the work and just sold her.. etc...
    i dunno that was my first impression........
    re.last is right. shes got to trust you ... and shes got to learn
    that she need not care about other horses just you  (the rider)
    
    
    			wendy o'
    
    

    
    Unfortunately after 5 years a horse has begun to grow up, and wise up
    to many things. Being gentle and kind, is always the first resort. 
    
    A friend of mine was in a similiar position with a mare that she
    bought. She tried everything to get it to respond and leave the
    "pack". After about two weeks of work she decided that the gentle
    approach was not working too well.
    
    Beating "cropping", and spurring the animal initially taught it who was
    the boss. She slowly reduced this type of training, which by then had
    the desired affect.
    
    The resultant, a very well mannered mare which is exactly what she
    wanted. Nobody likes to beat a horse, but unfortunately you may have
    to.    
    
    I can't comment on the bit that she used during that training period.

    re. Caryl
    
    want directions to Bobbies barn:*)
    
    
    			wendy o'
    
    

  Barn sour horses are NOT fun.  I used to ride on that would rear and spin
  around while he was still on his hind legs and try to take off back to the 
  barn.  This can be very dangerous!  They also know if you're intimidated by
  their behavior and will take advantage of you whenever they can.

  Obviously, this horse has gotten away with this foolishness for a long time
  and now you get to try to break her of the habit.  

  I would suggest the following:

  First start with the basics.  The easiest way to get her to respect and
  listen to you is to work with her while you are off of her.  In the barn,
  make sure she does what you tell her to.  If she fidgits on the cross ties,
  be firm and insist that she stand still.  Take her out on the lead line and
  work her in hand in a ring, or outside the pasture, away from the other 
  horses.  Make her walk, trot and halt on command.  If you hand graze her, 
  don't let her put her head down until you say it's ok.  Don't let her eat
  with the bridle on, or grab for leaves off trees while you're on the trail.

  She should understand that when you are working with her, be it in the barn
  or while you're riding her, she must have a working attitude and you are the
  one that has to insist on it.  She will need constant reminding, but she 
  should soon understand that she can do what she pleases while she's in the
  pasture, but when you're working with her, it's time to listen and learn.

  In regard to the balking and rearing bit:

   1. Keep your cool.  Fighting with her may only make her more unreasonable.
      You might want to carry a bat. It doesn't hurt too much, but makes a 
      loud whack and makes them think twice about misbehaving.

      Use the bat behind your leg (reinforcement of leg aid) when she first
      stops, once is usually enough to get your point across, then encourage 
      her foward with your leg.  If she rears (extremely bad habit) whack 
      her over the head with the bat, or give her a smack with your hand on 
      her pole and tell her "NO".  

   2. If she wheels around and tries to head for home, always turn her back 
      the way she came around.  Try not to turn her in circles.  

   3. If you start fearing for your safety, get off and lead her foward. Don't
      ever give up and give her the satisfaction of going home after she has 
      misbehaved, or she'll have won the battle before you've even started.
      Many times they'll let you lead them places they never would have gone if 
      you were riding them.  If you do try this, lead her for a ways, and then
      try and get back on and continue.  Sometimes after getting a safe distance
      (out of hearing range) from the barn, they cooperate better.  You may want
      to practice getting on and off her for a while, making sure she knows to
      stand still, or she may not be too good while your trying to get back on
      out on the trail.

   4. Remember to be firm and when she is good, reward her with lots of love 
      and carrots.
 
   5. I think the problem with the canter may stem from her balking attitude.
      You need to teach her to think "foward".  She must learn to respond to
      your leg aids.  She may also feel unbalanced since she is young and
      green.  Working her in a ring at the walk and trot will strengthen her
      and increase her sense of balance.

  Good Luck!

  Simone

    I would defineatly get her away from the barn by hand walking her
    first, too.  A rearing horse is just too dangerous, particularly
    if "away from the barn" means onto roads. Lead her away from
    the barn and allow her to just graze once you get there. Perhaps
    then she will associate going away from the barn with something
    pleasant. Once you are able  to get a decent distance from the barn
    on foot, then attempt riding her again. And by all means carry a
    crop of some sort, or spurs, and wear your helmet!
    
    I too have a horse that was very hard to get into a canter when I
    first got her. I did a lot of work on the lunge before even
    attempting to ride her at a canter. It seemed to help her learn
    to balance herself first, before having the added weight of a
    rider to worry about as well. Perhaps she had a previous rider
    who was less than secure, and made cantering uncomfortable for
    her. Maybe you could have a knowledgeable friend watch you ride,
    to see if you are inadvertantly working against her. It's next
    to impossible to honestly critique your own riding, almost anyone
    who normally rides alone picks up one bad habit or another.
    
    Good luck with her, she sounds nice!
    

    
    This may sound a bit crazy, but a person I met at an outing had a
    problem with his Gelding Quarter Horse, rearing, not wanting to leave
    the front yard, spinning to go back to the barn etc. when he was
    saddled, in fact it got so bad the horse didn't want his saddle on...
    My first thoughts were something ailing this horse (this was his first
    horse ever).... well after a good look by the vet....... the horse
    was foundering...his feet hurt so he didn't want to be ridden...
    (This doensn't say ANYTHING for their ferrier......)
    
    Don't rule out physical ailments...  After that lots of loving trust
    to win back a horse that may feel it has been bounced from home to home
    and not trusting anyone much now.....
    
    

    Is there some treat she especially likes?  If so, give her whatever it
    is *only* when you are riding her.  It really makes a difference if you
    can get the horse to associate good things with being ridden.  I've not
    tried this with a really barn sour horse, and I'm sure it will not work
    on its own, but I've used it for young horses that are working alone in
    the ring and feel anxious when their buddies are all in the barn or the
    pasture.  It does have a relaxing effect.  
    
    You'll have to decide, though, if this horse is really upset, or if she
    just thinks she's got you buffaloed and can do whatever she pleases. 
    It really depends on temperament.  With the really high strung ones, it
    can start off with something they are nervous about, and then if you
    try to force them to do it, that in itself frightens them.  I had
    (still have) a mare who would not walk through water, or onto a
    trailer, without a major battle.  So one day I decided to give her
    lessons in "Walking on Weird Things".  I put a tarp on the ground, 
    an old feed bag, all sorts of things.  I started off rewarding her if
    she would just respond to the word "step" by moving one leg forward. 
    After only a day of this, she would step on the scary thing, and in
    another day or so she would walk over anything.  But the rule I made
    myself was that I would not pull her, and I would ignore anything "bad"
    she did, and reward the teeniest, tinyiest bit of good (i.e. stepping
    toward the *THING*)  It really worked.  But this was a mare who was
    genuinely upset by not just the monsters on the ground, but by being
    pushed too fast to do something scary.  
    
    Gee, I've really been rambling here.  Just try to make your horse like
    what she does.  Good luck!
    
    
    -ellie  

    Just one more thing my trainer told me.....don't make the end of the
    ride or going back to the barn too attractive.
    
    Example...if the horse is rewarded with carrots, etc AFTER the ride
    back at the barn, then you brush/hose him down and turn him into a nice
    clean stall where they can roll, etc, it makes going back to the barn
    TOO attractive.  He always leaves his horses tacked up on cross-ties
    for a short time after returning.  He'll sweep the barn, etc.  He makes
    all the fun come from the ride itself...

    I agree with most of the suggestions made.  But I would not suggest
    batting the horse on the head or poll with your crop in response to a
    rear.  I think everyone agrees that rearing is a nasty/dangerous habit
    that must be corrected immediately.  I have always found that circling
    a rearing horse was the best way to keep the horse on the ground, etc. 
    All my instructors through the years have always endorsed this
    technique.  Number 1, it keeps the horse on the ground.  A strong or
    stubborn horse could easily out manuver a bop on the head, throwing
    their head back and bashing you in the process (intentional or
    unintentional).  Number 2, by spinning (controlled) the horse, you can
    make them dizzy or confused, so that generally they forget what they
    were fighting to begin with, or the experience is unpleasant enough
    that they won't do it again (they associate rearing with spinning).  I
    can usually stop the spin, then ask the horse to go forward.  If they
    are afraid of something in front of them, backing them in front of the
    object has also worked for me.  It is important to re-enforce
    positive stokes when the horse takes a step forward, and to encourage
    relaxation.  But I never tolerate rearing or dangerous shying.
    
    Good luck, I've been successful with the techniques I described above. 
    My horse is a well-manner animal at home and away from home.  Once you
    have successfully implemented this techniques, it doesn't take much to
    re-school the horse later if necessary.  The discipline can be given
    swiftly, without much fuss.  Also, if the horses rearing is
    intimadating, I would suggest a rider that is comfortable implementing
    these techniques, school him the first time.  You want the rider to
    succeed, with positive re-enforcements.  It may take several schooling
    sessions.
    
    Sorry for my babbling, but I found it interesting that someone
    recommended not circling.  I felt that the merits of circling deserved
    an opportunity to be discussed.

    Wendy
    
    I missed something...Directions to Bobbies Barn???
    
    Caryl

    my boyfriend had (has) a horse quiete like yours. She didn't like to go
    away from the barn herself, just together with other horses. if he
    still asked her to she would stand on two legs, spinning around,
    falling down the slope (she wanted to). 
    
    when i saw them first i thougt she is very young and due to no training 
    doesn't have a good balance. also he is very tall for her (she is one
    of this fit, slim italian horses). also the horses in that stable are
    sort of not really good cared for.
    
    after she moves to my place and i started looking for her. i tried to
    give a feeling for balance and all this dressage stuff. she started to 
    be better. sometimes she would go crazy, but just a little bit. by 
    then she went outside alone (new area, too) and she goes away from 
    other horses, too. 
    
    the important point is she is very sensitive on the back afer riding. 
    one week i rode a little bit more and she started to loose weight in 
    a really bad way. 
    
    we called the vet and he checked her back. we went to do x-ray and
    found out that her spines of the back are too much together exactly
    where the saddle is.
    
    so all the trouble was caused by pain (touching spines with too heavy
    rider). 
    
    now i just ride hunt seat and try to build up the muscles so they can
    support and daniele is not allowed to ride her at all -too heavy.
    we also use a special blanket that "eats" the bumps when i ride her.
    
    she is doing very well now. of course we can't be sure it still doesn't
    hurt, but as long as she moves like now it seems to please her. if she
    starts to show pain again we can just use her for a carriage, put her
    on the field for the rest of her live (she is 6 or 7) or put her down.
    
    of course a lot of other things went beside this story and this is a
    short version.
    
    i hope your horse is JUST spoiled and doesn't have problems like ours.
    
    ciao,
    petra 

  re: .11

  I did not say "beat the horse over the head", I said to give them a whack with
  a bat, or with the palm of your hand - neither of which is going to hurt them
  very much.  It does make them think twice about rearing again.  Also if you
  anticipate a rear, you can place your hand over their pole and it usually
  keeps them from going up - unless they're raelly pissed off and then you 
  simply get off and lead them.  Circling does not address the rearing problem.
  I've seen horses tip over sideways due to being turn in circles - yes, they
  do get dizzy.  

  I think you must differentiate between a stubborn, barn sour horse and a 
  frightened horse (much more dangerous).  I wouldn't even stay on a horse 
  rearing out of fear.  I think .9 has great suggestions for a frightened
  horse. 

  Simone

    The only thing i disagree with is the circling..
    dont ask me why, i think its because it is still giving the horse
    a way out or evaision (sp?) the key is to move them forward...
    
    I think if it came down to it, i think spurs but be a nice addition if
    you want my opinion... (everyone one has there own way of doing things)
    
    I think the main key is (as Caryl found out ) is dont fight with em and
    let them figure things out for them selves as long as they do want you
    want, I dont care how they get there :*)
    
    In Carly situation i think she should take porr willie and tie him to 
    a tree.. this will teach him patience and will show her that she is 
    not the only one being taken out of the barn...
    
    
    
    
    		wendy o'
    
    

    I invited my neighbor over to join myself and a friend
    on a trail ride.  She has her own horse, a 18 yr old
    Standardbred, that she has had for about 4 yrs now.
    We exited through my back gate to the path,  and started
    on our way.  Her horse stopped, started backing up, refusing
    to go forward.  The more she asked him to go forward, the more
    he backed up.  Then he started to rear up, almost falling off 
    the path (which is along a high point).  My neighbor fell off,
    got back on, and the same scenerio went on again.  And, then,
    again.  He refused to go forward, rearing up, and backing up.
    Needless to say, she didn't come along on the ride.
    She used to go out with me, and alone.  He is fine in her corral
    or my riding ring.  She cannot, though, ride him from my house to
    hers through the woods, like she did before.
    
       ===>	My opinion:  I think he is Barnsour
    
    What is your opinion, and what can she do to "fix" the problem?
    
    Lynne
    
     

I have always had good luck with patience and persistence. Even if this is stuff
that he used to do with no problem. Something happened to make him unwilling.
Sort of start fresh. If he balks at being ridden through the woods, maybe set
out some Saturday morning with the goal in mind of getting through the woods,
mounted or on foot, and do it when there is no hurry or pressure. I have to
reschool my friend over puddles, all over again, every year.

I would absolutely *not* let him get away with turning back as a result of this
behavior. I would not punish him until I was sure about why he was resisting.

In the situation that your friend was in, I would have dismounted and led the
horse a ways, just to get him past that sticky part. If, after retrying to mount
up and ride, it happened again, I might have sent you off on your ride and tried
to work through some of the problem alone, and get at least a couple of good
steps in before turning him around and taking him home. And then I'd go back
the next day, week, or whatever and keep trying until I got the desired result.
Make it a training exercise for me and the horse.

This is just how I'd approach it, I don't claim to be any sort of expert. This
approach has been successful for me and my ponies.

    
    
    	I agree with note number .1 ... 
    
    	Horses who don't want to go forward you have to make go forward
    	Always be in a place that is comfortable to fight in. ( not
    	a ridge)...   Walk to a level spot on the trail and work on 
    	it there.  Don't get frustrated it gets you no where.  Be 
    	persistant.  You are going forward. Just get it in your head 
    	and stick with it.  He has won in my option she turned around and
    	went home... Next time he goes out he do it sooner so he wont'
    	have to walk that far to go home and it will be worse.  The more
    	she lets him win the harder it will be to get him to go forward..
    
    	Persistance and sticking to your objective is the most important 
    	part.
    
    	Best of luck..
    
    	Donna

    Her horse is fine if he is led......she can walk him anywhere
    that way.   He just doesn't want to go away from my riding ring
    or his corral.
    
    

    Our TB started trying that when we first brought him home, all it
    took was a crop, a pair of blunt spurs, a full cheek snaffle (so that
    when I applied the right rein, he also got pressure against the left
    side of his mouth that he could not easily avoid) and a little
    persistence.
    
    My friend also has a Standardbred gelding who is a bit barn sour, she
    finds she has good success using a standing martingale, on the basis
    that he tries to spin suddenly and bolt for home. She feels the
    martingale prevents him from spinning quite so quickly as he could
    otherwise and also prevents him from rearing (which he has tried only
    once but she is now cautious of). She's very persistent with him, takes
    him out regardless of what *he* wants to do, and it seems to have paid
    off, he's made progress lately. Don't know if the martingale actually
    has as much effect as her own persistence, though, or if it would work
    for a different horse.
    

    How about backing up?  If the horse backs up well while being ridden,
    try turning him and backing him past the sticky spot.  This used to
    work quite well with my old horse when he would get fussy about a spot. 
    However, he backed very well and never reared, so this might not be an
    option for her.
    
    Tina