Conference noted::equitation

the first solutions I can think of are

1) enclose his stall so he can't get to anyone in the aisle when he's in there

2) when you groom, tie him short enough that he can't reach you (either with 
crossties or a single tie)


As far as the grooming, he may be incredibly ticklish and may just hate having 
his body touched.  Try experimenting with different brushes (maybe the ones 
you're using are too uncomfortable for that particular horse?)  Don't make the 
grooming process any longer than absolutely necessary, and reward him if he's 
good for a even a short while (a few swipes with the brush, but no swipes with 
the teeth = a carrot and kind words, or something to that effect).  Groom the 
parts he tolerates first, and then sneak a few swipes for the saddle & girth
areas.  The whole horse doesn't have to be spotless before riding, just the parts
that count!

When grooming, if he's just being a jerk cuz it's a bad habit, reprimand him 
when he does something wrong. You'll  probably need to experiment with what works
best. Be careful when tying and reprimanding - if you tie too short, he may spook 
when he reacts to your reprimand, and if he's tied too short, that could scare 
him more.

The agression when he's in the stall may be that he's protecting his 'turf', 
so even though you're trying to be nice to him, try the opposite.  You definitely
need to protect the innocent passers by.  If he's going to be nasty, don't give
him the opportunity.

Treat him carefully, as you would a wild horse.  Horses don't reason very well,
and you need to be sure that he doesn't cause any harm.

    I always tie him short and shout at him if I see his head swing round
    toward me. However twice now I have smacked him for trying to bite and
    then kicking if he can't move his head. All this caused was for him to
    burst the twine which I tied his lead rope to and head straight out the
    gate.
    
    Its a bit of a catch 22 because if I tie him up so short that his nose
    is against the wall he gets frustrated and is starting to kick out from
    time to time. If I give him some rope, then he's free to swing his head 
    round.
    
    Good idea about the groom/reward.

    One of my horses had a very bad habit of biting when he was younger.
    
    For a long time when ever he did it I smacked him, this had no effect
    on him what so ever.  In the end I tried ignoring him, this was very
    difficult especially when it hurt... but it cured him of the habit. He
    now never bites.
    
    I think he associated me smakcing him was some sort of a game.  It a
    chance I took and it payed off.
    
    Good luck. 
    
    Jayne
         

Another thought that might work, but you'll have to be a bit quick on your
feet.  You might also want to do this in a stall where you can get him up
againsta a wall with not a lot of space to move around...Try *not* tying him,
but instead use a chain shank over the nose, with the line going to the side 
you're not grooming, then over the withers. Then you hold the end.  This way, 
he swings his head around towards you, he reaches the end of the shank and 
punishes himself.  You'll have to watch to be sure he doesn't swing his 
hindquarters towards you, though, and that you don't end up getting pinned.

rough sketch (grooming left side of horse):

ooo = horse
x   = you
dashed lines = stall walls

-----------------
|   ooooooooooo
|       x               run shank over nose, down right side of horse and 
|                       over withers, where you hold the end. Horse swings 
|                       head left to get you, encounters end of shank, thereby
   ^head       ^tail    punishing himself.



If he's really a confirmed biter, you could also put a muzzle on him.  They make
them so that the horses can eat through them.  This would at least prevent him 
being able to actually get his teeth on you.

Or, brush his head, and put a bridle with a flash or drop noseband on (tight), 
and then put the halter back on if you want to tie him.  The idea here being 
to tie his mouth shut, so that even if moves to bite, he can't open his mouth.

    A mussle is probably a good idea while your breaking him. A metal one
    will really hurt though if it hits you, I have a plastic one you can
    use if you'd like. You can have it for as long as you like, I can't use
    it. 
    
    Try to make sure your not punishing him all the time, he'll never learn
    good from bad.  You'll just be confirming to him that people are rotten
    and he needs to protect himself even more.  This isn't easy if he is
    threatening you all the time as some do, so try to only punish 10% of
    his behavior, praise or ignore him the rest of the time.  Gradually
    he'll figure it out and he'll stop doing that 10% (the worst) and you
    can move your 10% to something else.  
    Example: 
    If his actions were broken up maybe 1 would be - He flattens his ears,
    2) he shakes his head with flattened ears, 
    3) He flattens ears, shakes head and snaps his teeth
    4) He does all that and swings his head toward you
    5) He lunges toward you
    Well, I only got 5 but maybe you know what I mean.  He might stomp his
    feet or swish his tail at you, whatever, try to break his behavior down
    like this.   Then only punish for the worst, ignore or praise during
    the rest. When you punish him make sure he knows your REALLY mad, Growl
    or shout at him, your voice is really important in it.
    
    Sharon

    Thanks for all the suggestions and the offer of the muzzle.
    
    I think I might have given the impression that he's just a baby who needs 
    training, but he's 11 YEARS OLD!! and this habit has become ingrained.
    
    He has been moved from yard to yard for causing so much trouble and he
    has calmed down a lot with us.
    
    As regards feeling that people are rotten, my sharer and I try very
    hard to love him. He's the most well looked after horse on the yard and
    has practically got a rug for every day of the week and every comfort
    known to man and horse and has had this for about 4 years, so he's had
    plenty of time to get used to it. But we do shout, growl and smack if he's
    naughty and praise him constantly if he stands still.
    
    Last night I tried putting on his bridle, which has a flash, first
    before I took his rug off (which he hates) and groomed him. It did help
    a lot. Now I'll try ignoring him and see what happens. 
    

    If he's had a rocky life before, it might just take time.  I once got a
    mare from the track who bit and kicked if you just looked at her.  (I
    bought her because I felt sorry for her; she was literally starving.)
    Anyway, I just completely ignored all her bad habits, for the most part,
    and if she actually bit me or came real close, I would yell or growl at
    her, but I never hit her.  Granted, this was probably easier in my 
    situation than in yours, because I used her as a broodmare.  But she came 
    around, once she learned she didn't have to defend herself.  She's a
    real sweetheart now.
    
    Good Luck.
    
    -ellie

    I used to lease a TB that was a puppy dog with his owner
    but on some days could be quite obnoxious with me.

    While on the cross ties 'normally' I'd loop the chain of 
    a lead over his nose and tie the end of the lead to the cross-
    tie chain.  This definetly worked the best (yes, fighting can become
    a game) and after using it a couple of times if he was bad 
    again I'd just put it on him and he'd stand there and whine alittle.
    "oh come on, don't you want to fight, huh don't you ?"

    One day he was really bad and TOMLIN::ROMBERG punched him in the
    nose.  He was an angle for about 2 weeks after that !

    Bill

    This summer, my colt, then a yearling just started with the nipping
    routine.  Serious reach over and nip good on the shoulder or arm or
    back usually when we we were out in the field reinforcing  gaits on a
    lead line.  Really surprised me the first couple of times.
    
    I did not want to overreact but wanted this to stop right now.  I
    figured it was a dominant play thing and he was testing his place in
    our relationship or with people in general.
    
    Right or wrong, I bided my time until he did it again ( a few day
    later), then yanked the halter up short, yelled loudly and whacked him
    on the nose with a crop.  He tried this once again later that day and
    got the same treatment.  That was that, seven months later, no teeth,
    lips only.

re: .8

lest anyone think that I am advocator of hitting horses in the face, that I am
definitely not, except when the horse is exceptionally pushy with his head
as the horse Bill was leasing was.  Then I really 
try to explain to them in terms that *they* will understand, which part of 
their body was offending me.  My normal target if I'm having a 'dominance
discussion' with a horse (and those are usually pretty rare, and not often 
repeated), is an area of their body that is apt not to move very far/fast 
such as the shoulder or barrel.  

    
    
    	Just my .02 worth and because no else has mentioned this...........
    
    Don't hand feed the horse or any horse that seems to have this problem.  
    I worked around alot of breeding stallions and that was the first rule. 
    The same thing went for the younger colts, none were to be hand fed
    even if they didn't have biting problem.  
    
    	I just thought I would mention it.
    
    Virginia

    Sorry Kathy, I forget that the written word is always 'open to
    interpretation' by the reader.
    Bill

    I just finished reading "Lyons on Horses" by (guess who?) Lyons.
    
    I loved his description of what to do with a biter.  I can't recall
    the exact words, but it boils down to "...for the next 2 seconds I
    do my best to kill him [the horse], then forget the incident entirely
    and go back to being his best friend."
    
    The bottom line is you have to react FAST and FEROCIOUSLY - just
    like a pasture-mate higher on the echelon.  I like to stand by a
    shoulder (just in the right position to get a chomp on the arm
    or elbow) and pretend to groom.  When the bite comes (But before it
    connects), grab a big hunk of skin and hair on the belly or lower
    rib cage and twist the h__l out of it while yelling NO!  If you're
    fast enough (or don't have strong hands), tuck a whip down the boot
    away from the horse's head - grab and CRACK HARD on the belly and
    yell.
    
    If you watch a dominant horse in the pasture, the 'ultimate'
    punishment for misbehavior in another animal is to lunge and give
    a good chomp on the side.  That's what you're emulating.  It only
    takes once - maybe twice - if the timing and force of the punishment
    is good.
    
    

    re .13 as well as .8 & .10
    
    That's why I think a quick left jab to the nose WHILE the horse is in
    the act of lungeing/biting at you is one of the most appropriate things 
    you can do. It's fast, effective(the get the point VERY well), and it's
    relatively harmless. Let's face it none of us is a heavyweight boxing
    champ and we just don't have much of a punch! ;-)
    
    Beating a horse about the head with a whip or something is an entirely
    different story. The leverage provided by a whip multiplies the muscle
    power to the extent that even the smallest woman is capable of
    inflicting pain & injury. 

    Biting is such an exasperating problem.  My neighbor stopped her horse
    from biting by using a nail between her fingers - extended only a tiny
    bit.  When the horse tried to nip her she poked him in the nose with
    the nail.  It worked.
    
    I have used the John Lyons technique quite successfully with serious
    discipline problems - even before I knew about John Lyons.  One horse
    kicked at me when I went in his stall - his foot narrowly missing my
    head.  Well, for 2 seconds *we both* thought he was dead meat.  I
    didn't actually touch him but he did get a small bucket of water on his
    head - and I know I made a lasting impression on him the way I hollered
    and carried on.  He was definitely a better citizen after the event.
    
    I would start with the whip approach first - most horses have been
    taught to respect it.  There's no need for any more than a disciplinary
    smack on the body.  I'd use the "Bite-back" technique only if I know
    for certain the horse doesn't tend to lunge back (ie: the most
    aggressive horse in the herd.

    re .15
    
    Your note about the bucket of water on the head finally made me 
    remember a biter-cure I heard of and used some time ago.  Get a spray 
    bottle of water, and use that whenever he tries to bite you.  You don't 
    have to have a particularly good aim, because you're gonna get him even 
    if you don't hit dead center.  And this works with the biter who thinks 
    of it as a game, because when you spray his face, you aren't playing the 
    game right, and he gets no fun out of it.
    
    -ellie

    RE .16
    
    I'm not so sure I'd use a spray bottle as punishment - this could
    backfire when you try to use a sprayer for fly repellent, coat sprays,
    etc.  

    re .17
    
    Guess the horse I used this on was too stupid to make the connection!
    8^)  This was my stallion, and I think it worked because it was not
    agressive.  But he never became upset by fly spray etc, because the
    only time he got sprayed was when he tried to bite.  Also, I don't
    think he actually thought of it as punishment.  He just discovered that
    this was what happened when he tried biting.  This is negative
    reinforcement, not punishment, if done properly.  There's a subtle but
    important difference between the two.
    
    Course, you could substitute a water pistol, if you're a good shot.
    
    8^)
    
    -e

    The nail in the hand is the trick my trainer uses when he gets
    a bratty stallion in that needs to be un-spoiled.  This trick
    works because the horse does the actual sticking to himself/herself.
    
    "Hmmm....when I try to nip/bite/mouth, I get stuck!"
    
    

    I tried really laying into him a few times and gave him a good clout.
    This only resulted in him (twice!) bursting the twine that he was tied to 
    and legging it out of the gate and down the main road, leaving me clutching
    his stable rug. He was looking back at me all the way down the road,
    daring me to run after him (little monster!)
    
    Anyway, now I've tried ignoring him and tying him up loose, because I
    wondered if he was getting frustrated being tied up so short that his
    nose was against the wall. It seems to have helped a bit.
    
    Last night my sharer tried free grooming him in his box (she's braver
    than me)  and said that he was a perfect gentleman. Trouble is he's so
    unpredictable. He seem to have days when he gets out the wrong side of
    the box, as it were. I wish he could tell me if he's in a good mood or
    not before I start on him.
    
    Anyway, if we have a relapse, I'll try some of these other ideas.
    What a great thing - notes!

    Tough cookies that he doens't like being tied up short!  He bites,
    and that hurts!  
    
    I'd let him stand for a good 2 hours a day tied to a "post
    with the innertube" trick.  Or, the lead rope around the neck
    and through the halter.
    
    

    
    	I agree with Lynne completely - tie him up for a while
    	and let him deal with it. I was even thinking that a good
    	sacking out might be in order to teach him respect, but I 
    	don't have any first hand experience with that method so I
    	don't feel comfortable recommending it (I do have a friend
    	who trains problem horses and he does use it).
    
    	Sherry
    
    	

I have had several (6 total) TBs just off the track. Four of them were nasty
biters. They could be sweet as pie one minute, then just pop into a foul
mood, at the drop of a hat. One of them actually thought he was playing with me!
I am sure of it because I watched him do it to his best buddy out in the field.

What worked for me was what was suggested in .13. I had to establish a position
of dominance - socially (sounds pretty weird) with the animals. This can be done
in a variety of ways, but what worked for me was - a short burst of
intentional fury, followed immediately by calm resumption of what ever you are
doing.

Understand that I am not suggesting that you go out and beat up your horse. I
approached every interaction as a "schooling session". Make sure that the animal
is tied with a strong rope with a quick release (in case he gets upset), tie up
in a safe place where you will be able to maintain total control. Select a
punishment that can be administered quickly (I chose the "grab a handful of skin
and twist with a loud NO - it gets your point across *very* effectively without
alot of flailing). The key to it all is - your maintaining complete control even
if the horse falls to pieces, which hopefully he will. He has to learn to
respect your space, and the space of other humans and that biting humans will
cause pain.

You may want to have someone around for help, wait 'til there are few people in
the barn so that you don't disturb anyone, whatever, but do it and be
consistent with it. It could take months of these sessions, use a muzzle for
other peoples safety until you've broken him of the habit, there are no quick
cures for anything with these guys ;-). Just be sure that you can be safe and
in total control.

Good Luck