Conference noted::equitation

    No 16 isn't too old to gelg him - in fact it might be the fair
    thing to do.  Some of the older horses stay study but most of
    them don't.
    
    Oh yeah - the spelling is trakehner (i've got one too)
    
    -mauren
    

    Tina,
    
    I was going to call you but couldn't get your number.  I had a seven
    year old stallion gelded and could share some information with you
    as far as what my experience was and what people told me.  If you
    want to call me my home # is 603-887-2653.
    
    Nancy

    We had a very nice Quarter Horse stallion that we had gelded at
    15 years old.  He had been bred all his life, he was a real gentlemen
    but we were boarding him out and the farm didn't allow stallions
    so we decided to have him gelded.  
    
    It did not work out well.  He had so man complications but I really
    don't know whether it had anything to do with the fact that he was
    15 or not.  We had to put him down 6 weeks after we had him gelded
    directly attributed to the surgery.  This has always bothered me
    because we were so careful, did everything to the letter that we
    were supposed to.  We exercised him twice a day, everyday, took
    him for walks, the farm kept a very close eye on him.  It was pretty
    heartbreaking to lose him that way.
    
    KJ

    What is the latest age that you can geld a stallion?
    
    Also, at what age (youngest) can a stallion sire a foal?
    
    Regards,
    Barbara
    

    They can be gelded at any age, of course, but their subsequent behavior
    is determined to some extent on how early you geld them.  I've worked
    with geldings that were done at 8 yrs or more, and had been used for
    breeding.  Both were fine.  I have a stallion who is 11, and he may be
    gelded soon, if I can't find someone to lease him for breeding.
    
    I takes a month after gelding for the testosterone levels in their
    system to get to "gelding" levels, and a full year before their
    behavior stabilizes at the new levels.
    
    HOw old is the horse you have in mind?

    Hi, Barbara.  If you want to be really sure on the times, I would 
    definitely consult your vet, or call Tufts.  When you are doing
    something as important as gelding your horse you want to be sure that
    you have correct information upon which to base your decision.  And
    be sure that you have a trained vet, not one who is a novice in 
    castration.  My poor appaloosa was the guinea pig for a novice "vet",
    and I use the term lightly, and he has suffered from it ever since.
    A good vet is priceless!!
    
    Laurel.
    

    
    
    	New Note...  When should a colt be cut...?
    
    			What is the earlest he can be cut.?
    
    				Benifits to early or later?

    
    
    When I was growing up in Iowa, my Dad always cut the colts when he
    weaned them at 6 months.  Usually this was in the fall after the first
    frost killed the flies and other bugs thus reducing the risk of
    infection and the swelling associated with the operation.  If the colts
    were *totally* obnoxious, he would cut them as early as three months.
    
    
    One of the things I noticed is that the colts that were cut early
    almost always grew bigger than the colts that were cut later in the 
    year.  They must have been channelling all the energy that they had 
    into growth instead of hormone production.
    
    Pat

    re .-1
    
    That's interesting about the early-gelded colts being taller than the
    others.  I noticed, too, that if you look at Thoroughbreds at the
    track, the tallest ones are usually the geldings.  
    
    -ellie

    I too agree, that if you cut them early they will get taller. I had my
    gelding done at 1 year of age because he has such a jerk! He sprouted
    into a 16.1 hand horse...still a hot jerk....but what a big guy.
    
    I have a three year old horse at home now that was so good we just cut
    him this past spring. granted he was a twin....but he is only14.2 hands
    in height. 
    
    I guess if it is me.....if I am not going into breeding...cut them
    early. let them settle down and you will have much nicer animals.
    I would not question gelding another colt at a year of age UNLESS he
    is really not in perportion (spelling) with himself and the vet 
    recommended holding off longer.
    
    terry

    6 months is the standard time they get cut on my breeders
    ranch.......

    
    I know a breeder who is also a veterinarian.  He has been breeding
    Arabians and Anglo-Arabians for 40 years.  He usually gelds his colts
    at 3 months (if it is possible).  His geldings usually grow to unusual
    size (but his horses tend to be taller than the normal anyway).  He 
    also finds that gelding them this young results in fewer injuries due to 
    agressive stud-colt type of playing. 
    
    There have been lots of top quality geldings from his place (including
    one horse that competed in the 1990 World Championship Endurance 
    competition in Stockholm.  And a multi-winner of the Old Dominion 
    Hundred Mile Endurance Race).
    
    Mary Jo

If they grow bigger if they're gelded early, I would hate to know how big my
guy would have been if he had been done early....He was gelded at age 2 and is
16.3+ hands!!!

    It would be hard to tell if gelding affects the size of the horse more
    than the genetics.  I had my Thoroughbred gelded at age 2.  He is now
    16 hands and half an inch.  His dam was 16.1 and his sire was 16. 
    However, I also have a 4 year old - Cleveland Bay/TBred cross.  He was
    gelded as a yearling and he is now 17.1.  His dam was in the 16.1-16.2
    range and his sire is 17.
    
    Does anyone know of any statistical studies?
                    
    Diana
    

    Equus had an article about this at least a year ago. They had done a
    long term study and discovered that horses gelded young grew longer.
    The male hormone creates puberty earlier and the horse fills out
    younger. My vet always said geld as soon as the testes are both down.
    

    I was reading CANINE this morning and there is an entry stating that
    male dogs that are neutered before entering puberty grow taller than
    normal.  
    
    L
    

    Also true of cattle.  Oxen are an example.

    Yeah... and they won't go bald either...
    
    Actually, testosterone brings on puberty earlier which has the side
    effect of stopping growth earlier than without puberty.  Cutting early
    has other side effects such as retention of the pre-puberty voice...
    and in humans it prevents the onslaught of balding too.
    
    Regards,
    
    Baldy

    I was involved in a discussion this weekend that I thought
    people in this file may find interesting.
    
    The question revolved around to geld or not to geld an older
    (10 year old) stallion.  Just how risky is it?  Life threatening?
    What can you tell me?
    
    gwen
    

    I had my 11-yr old stallion gelded last summer, and it's the best thing
    I ever did for that horse!  He now is calm, he does not have to be kept
    away from other horses, and he actually has a buddy.  He seems really
    happy to be part of a "horse sommunity" again, instead of having to be
    segregated from them.
    
    I had him gelded in August, not the best time because of the flies, but
    there were no complications, either during the procedure or after.
    
    -ellie

    
    
    
    This was a timely entry...
    
    I have a slight variation to the question in .0
    
    I'm buying a 3 year old Clydesdale stallion and would like to have him
    gelded before he comes home.  He's currently living at the farm where
    here was born.  He's 17 hands and 1650 lbs.  
    
    I live in Weare (near Concord) NH.  He's in Massachusetts.
    
    Questions:
    
    o how do the low temperatures we've been experiencing (single digits or
    below in the am) affect gelding?
    
    o what types of treatment does one need to provide after gelding? and
    for how long?
    
    o are there any complications to watch for?
    
    thanks in advance.
    
    -John
    
    ps:  moderator: if this is more appropriate to have as a separate note, 
    please feel free.

    re: the original question. I know two stallions that were gelded even
    later than yours or Ellie's. I think they were 14-15 years old at the
    time they were gelded. Although both had been "good natured" studs,
    their owners decided to geld them because they were no longer being
    used for breeding. Neither had any complications and the last time I
    saw the horses, they were ideal riding horses. They no longer even
    nickered at mares much less made a big fuss.
    
    Two other relatively late geldings I've known also did well. One was a
    young colt that the owners thought they would use for a stud. The horse
    was just so terribly unhappy as a stud that they gelded him at age 3 or
    4. His disposition improved dramatically. He was no longer anxious and
    fretting in his paddock, etc.
    
    The other was Trakhener stud that got caught in the early wars between
    2 US Trakhener registries; was accepted by the "wrong" one and didn't 
    pass the inspection criteria for a stallion in the other. His owner
    gelded him at age 6. Before he was gelded, he was a stereo-typical
    stallion; screaming; striking; biting and general macho attitude...
    Afterwards, he had a much quieter nature and was actually quite easy to
    work around.
    
    Hope those experiences help. Good luck w/ your decision
    John

    Again, re: the original question.  Does anyone know what the problems
    could be that are referred to but never actually defined?  Is it a
    problem with anesthesia for an older versus younger horse?  Some sort
    of psychological, post-surgery traumatic strss syndrome (only kidding)?
    
    The oldest horse that I know of was 20 at the time he was gelded.
    His owners made the decision because he had begun, out of the blue
    for no apparent reason, begun savaging himself - his sides and front
    legs.  When the vet performed the castration, she discovered that one
    testicle was almost completely disintegrated.  No wonder he was biting
    himself!  In any event, he came through the surgery with no problem
    and is living out is declining years in peace.
    
    gwen
    
    p.s.  And, in case anyone who knows me is curious, NO, I am not
    thinking of cutting my stallion.  He does have a normal libido, but
    has no vices commonly attributed to stallions.  He doesn't bite, kick,
    strike, belch in polite company, curse or spit.  What can I say, he's
    a saint. Not only that, he has wonderful babies!
    

    
    The complications I have seen is due to the surgery itself.  The 
    arteries going to the scrotum and testicles can be as big around as
    your little finger.  So bleeding can be an issue.  And if the swelling
    is severe, the incision can be closed off prematurely trapping all the
    stuf that should be draining.  You might have to open that up to let 
    it drain. 

    
    	I know of two stallions (father and son) who were gelded after
    	age 14 or so. Both died because they lost their intestines through
    	the incision area. It was a hereditary muscular weakness in that
    	area, according to the vet, but I don't think it can be detected
    	ahead of time. When we had the grandson done, he was 3, and he was
    	done in the hospital, and the scrotum was packed and stitched to
    	prevent any chance he might have the same problems. 
    
    	Sherry
    

    My neighbors gelded their 5 yr old Morgan stallion this past summer,
    after having him only a few months and realizing things would not be
    peaceful with a young stallion and a mare sharing a small barn. He
    hasn't changed one bit. He screeches, he terrorizes the mare when
    they are turned out together, he bites, and is generally just a very
    difficult horse for them to manage. They keep hoping he will settle
    down, but not yet he hasn't. This past weekend he hopped the paddock
    gate, which is about 4.5 ft high with a strand of electric around the
    top, and bolted down the road after the mare (whom they'd taken out
    for a ride). He's a tiny little thing, only about 14.1 hh, I was pretty
    impressed with his jumping ability! :-)
    
    

    I gelded my colt at a little under a year (because he was so
    obnoxious!).  
    
    I did have complications, similar to those mentioned in .8 - he swelled
    so much, despite exercise that the incision closed, causing an
    infection.
    
    He had to be reopenned - TWICE!  It took 6 miserable weeks to get him
    back to feeling himself.  It took him 8 months to calm down afterwards
    - I was  beginning to think he would always be just plain obnoxious!
    
    On the other hand, I had his half brother gelded at 2 1/1 yrs.  He
    walked a little stiff for a few days and that was it!!!!!  He never
    swelled or anything, and the same vet did both of them.
    
    I, too, know of two morgan stallions that lost their intestines when
    gelded........and probably 10 others that were fine.
    
    Kathy

    From the May 1990 Animal Health Newsletter
    
	Guarding against complications after equine castration

Castration is perhaps the most common surgical procedure performed on horses.
It is important that a horse has passed a thorough physical examination and
that any possible source of complication, such as an infectious disease or
excessive parasitism, is removed prior to castration.  In spite of such
precautions, however, complications often do follow even the most carefully
performed surgery.  Such complications are frequently the cause of friction
between owner and veterinarian, sometimes escalating to litigation.  Knowing
the possible complications and being alert to early signs can do much to
lessen the danger and ensure the safety of the horse.

The most common complications are hemorrhage, infection, and eventration
(protrusion of the intestine through the surgical incision).  According to
Andrew H. Parks of the University of Georgia, hemorrhage from the incision
may occur during surgery or as long as 48 hours after surgery.  In rare
cases, excessive intra-abdominal bleeding may make the horse lethargic and
contribute to a rapid heartbeat.  At times, general anesthesia and surgery
may be required to locate the source of bleeding and to tie off the bleeding
vessels.

Dr. Parks advises that some mild scrotal and preputial (foreskin) swelling 
is normal from two to five days after surgery.  Excessive swelling may, 
however, be a sign of infection, which may also involve fever and a loss
of appetite.  The veterinarian may decide to reduce the swelling by 
stretching and draining the wound.  Chronic infection may lead to a 
mushroom-shaped mass of tissue (champignon), which may have to be surgically
removed.  On rare occasions, an infection may involve the peritoneal cavity.
This may not be evident until five to ten days after the procedure and may
lead to clinical signs such as fever, depression, colic, and adnormal
function of the heart and circulatory system.

Dr. Parks calls eventration "every equine surgeon's nightmare".  The 
possibility of eventration can sometimes be gauged by precastration
examination.  Some conditions may put a horse at risk for eventration,
including a resolved scrotal hernia or a variation in scrotal or
testicular size.  If it is suspected that the problem may occur after
castration, the procedure should be done with the horse lying down and
with special surgical techniques.

    THAT'S what I was looking for -- all the nightmarish complications
    that can occur.  Thanks for sharing that John.  Now, if I ever have
    a colt to geld, I'll be sure not to get any sleep for weeks!
    
    gwen
    
    

    Maybe I should have included a recommendation for books guaranteed to
    put you to sleep along with that article on the "nightmarish
    complications" of gelding a colt! I started one of Dr Deb's
    conformation books last night and it worked real good! I was asleep
    before Jan finished her shower!

    I just save copies of the DEC North American News bulletin that gets
    mailed home...no problem!
    

    Do the mares and geldings have separate turnout areas?  If they do,
    then you have nothing to worry about when turning them out.  If not,
    he may try to mount someone, but if the mare dosen't want any part of
    him, then he'll know it.  But it happens.
    
    As far as riding, I've been with my mare while she's in heat around
    stallions, and I've never experienced a problem with mounting.  They all try
    like heck to talk to each other, but we generally try to keep
    everybodys mind on the work at hand.
    
    The Want-Ad will probably give you the most exposure to a lot of
    horses.  THe Pedlar or Equine Journal would give you exposure too. 
    

The discussion in note #1290 has come upon an additional question that is
appropriate for this topic.  I hope that someone will be able to answer
her question;, specifically around how long it takes a stallion to
"forget" he is a stallion once gelded.

Ed..


        <<< NOTED::DISK$NOTES1:[NOTES$LIBRARY_1OF5]EQUITATION.NOTE;3 >>>
                          -< Equine Notes Conference >-
================================================================================
Note 1632.5     Looking for a horse - What do I really look for?          5 of 6
AIMHI::BARKER                                        16 lines  15-JUN-1992 19:05
                    -< Good info so far, another question >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Yes, I checked 11,243 and 1290, good info...I was hoping
    to tie some more specific questions down...like is the
    Want Advertiser a good resource for horses. I found my
    instructor and her barn that way. She's agreed to go with
    me if I found someone interesting to look at...and Laurie
    is into HEALTHY horses. They may not be healthy when they
    come to her barn, but she'll work with the owner closely
    to get them up-to-par as quickly as possible.
    
    Same as my riding training.
    
    Someone brought up that Shilo might cause a problem down
    the road because he's been at stud...that he could possibly
    mount again when the mare (?) has a rider.
    
    How long does it take a gelding to "get it out of his system"?

    The answer to that is difficult to predict. If the stallion's behavior
    were strictly hormonal then you could say that he would "forget" about
    mares within a few months. Unfortunately, some of the stallion behavior
    can be learned. Since horse's have fantastic memories, some geldings
    never really give up habits they developed as stallions....In fact, I
    think there's an example in this notes file of a long gelding mounting
    a mare...I vaguely remember a not entitled "They're in Love" or
    something like that...look in the 4.2 note directory maybe under the
    GELDING topic?

    My neighbor has a 28 year old gelding that "has never"
    forgot what to do. He just doesn't remember who with.
    This palamino mounts the mares, the geldings and would try 
    the cows if they would stand still...
    
    

    We had our Peruvian colt gelded at 3 years because he wouldn't act like
    a stud!!!  the surgery went fine.  Vinnie slept 2 hours after and had
    to have a shot to get him up again.  He is a lazy one, no
    complications.  The next day he was studly, everything was to be
    mounted.  Now, this horse was put to mares before he was gelded and
    never got the idea.  he prefered to eat grass or put his head on my
    sholder and play with my hair.  The mare realy was offended, she backed
    him into the fence!
    	I tookd Vinnie about 2 weeks to realize he lost it.  The funny
    thing was, when he woke up after surgery he lifted his leg and actually
    moaned a little like he knew what had happened.
    
    
    virginia

    I just had my 11 month old colt gelded last Friday.  He had a minor
    complication and is on penicillin as a result.  Now, I've handled
    babies for several years now, but never paid much attention to this
    process....and I'm looking for some comforting words of experience.
    
    BTW-I've been in contact with the vet, and she comfortable with what is
    happening, but since this is my first.....I'm probably over reacting.
    
    The problem is my colt's sheath area has swelled, and he's kinda 
    not draining well.  The vet has been out once to open him up, 
    but she told me to take him on a good trail ride (he's accustomed
    and conditioned for this) and then hose him down good after and that
    should loosen up the area and allow for better draining.  
    
    Also no fever and he's got a great appetite...so I think that is a good
    sign....just looking for word of comfort and experience... 
    
    
    	Thanks from the worried mom.
    
    	Michele

    
    	Michelle... sounds like what you're seeing and what your horse
    is experiencing is perfectly normal.  The very best thing for a
    recently gelded horse is exercise and not to stand around.. so (for
    instance) he's better off outside in a pen or pasture than in a stall.
    I don't mean he needs to be working every minute - just moving and
    walking and keeping the wound open.  
    
    	Generally it takes a week to ten days for the swelling to go 
    down .. some more .. some less.  Sounds like you caught the problem
    in time and your vet has given you sound advise.  If he really hurts
    and is in pain you might talk w/you vet about some bute - it's just
    horse asprin which would help reduce swelling and pain.  
    
    	I always feel bad for the situation their in after gelding but
    you'll both be fine in no time!
    
    	Hang in there.... h

    Hi Micehele,
    
    Gee, minor swelling of the sheath is kinda normal for up to a week
    after gelding. Lots of new geldings go through that. If you're vet's
    happy with the situation, try not to worry too much.
    
    Exercise and cool water are pretty standard prescriptions for
    mild swellings so it sounds like he'll be fine. 
    
    Good luck
    John

    
    
    
    	awww....but I feel so bad........

    
    
    I have to report that Blue is doing fantastic!  After two hour long
    trail rides, his sheath is now resembling a sheath and not sonmething
    else.  I just didn't know what to expect......
    
    Thanks for those words of comfort!
    
    	Michele & Blue....

    
    Instead of starting a new topic, I thought I'd put this here - we just
    need a sholder to cry :-)
    
Well the time  come to geld our little boy, he is 10mo old now.  We thought
we'd do it now before the bugs come out.  We could of waited until August
but he'd be 1 yr 2 mo old and 1. we are showing him the NEDA breed show in 
September and 2. we thought it's better to do it while it's young.

The 3 of us are very upset about doing this to our little boy.  He is just
the best horse we have ever had, his sweetness is beyond comprehension.  If
he were a 100% pure I think we would keep him intact, due to his good nature.
But it does not make senses to keep him intact since he will never be breed.

But, still the thought of him being in any discomfort is tearing at our heat
strings.  We are afraid that this will have opposite effect on him.  Most times
a baby is hard to handle and when you get him "fixed" he calms down.  This
time we have a super baby and... well you know.

I know we are over reacting, but we are just so in love with Comet - and he
trust us 100% we don't want to do anything to change this.

If you have had your horse Gelded, can you tell me how it was for you and your
horse?  Help us get though this.

Lou

    I was worried about that too when I had mine done, so I can
    imagine what you are going through.  I hated the thought, but
    mine wasn't going to be bred either and I'm not sure I would have
    been able to handle a stallion.  As a gelding mine (a Paint) is
    still pretty hot blooded so I can only guess what he would be 
    like as a stud.
    
    The one recommendation I would make is to have the vet MAKE SURE the
    anethesia (sp?) takes affect before they do it.  I couldn't believe
    that mine didn't!  I was tempted to ask him how he'd like to try it
    that way!  It's been awhile, so I can't remember if we gave him 
    pain killers afterwards or not, but you might ask about something
    like that.
    
    I've been told that the more you walk them after the less it
    hurts, because it keeps the incision moving/draining so there is 
    much less chance for it to get infected.  Now is a good time
    to do it, so the bugs don't bother them - it's also cooler so
    they aren't sweating a lot and getting salt in the wound.  I had mine
    done about the same time for these very reasons.
    
    Good luck with your baby!  I've been reading your notes file a while
    and your he sounds wonderful! :-)
    
    \Caroline

    We had my guy done when he was just under a year old.  Excellent vet,
    no problems - he didn't need painkillers afterwards, but he walked a
    little gingerly for a few days.  Caroline's right - make sure the vet
    lets the anesthetic take effect, and make sure Comet doesn't just 
    stand around for the first few days.  My guy was pretty mellow when
    he got cut, and he didn't change much at all.  All in all, it shouldn't
    be much of a trauma - at least not for Comet. 

    
    
    
    the most important thing is a good vet.  my 1st was done by a vet who
    works better on cows.  my very mellow horse tried to bite him and it
    took over 6 months for him to heal.  the scaring is so bad that it
    looks like he was not cut on one side.   my current vet says he could
    go in and remove the tissue, but at this point, he is not a show horse
    so i haven't had that done.   my second was done by my current vet and 
    was himself 1 hr later.  no side affects.  both are very mellow.
    
    

    
    Thank you all.  I'm glad their are others here who were just as worried
    as I am.  I just love our little boy with all my hart.
    
    I think I have the best vet in the world, but I will be sure to make
    sure he is put under 100% before anything is started.
    
    She (the vet) also told us to walk him alot.
    
    Lou

We had Comet done on 5/9.  We had to put if off for a few weeks due to the
bad weather here in Mass.

It took 4 tranquilizers to get him calm in the back end.  It helped when I
sang to him, so I sang to him the whole time as I held his head against my
chest.

Our vet tied up the area once she was done, a thing that I guess most vets do
not do, but allot of them are now starting to do.  Ours has been doing this
for a very long time and it has worked better in her opinion.

She said, Comet would not swell until maybe Monday.  He swelled on Sunday, but
not to bad.  But he did start to run a temp of 102.7 - we got him on 
antibiotics ASAP, and he'll be on them for 5 days.  His temp was still high 
lastnight, but other then that he is fine.  He is walking and trotting around
real good and he is eating.

Lou

    Glad it worked out for both of you Lou!  
    
    \Caroline