Conference noted::equitation

    I would like more information on clay floors.  I'm presently 
    designing a floor plan for a new barn and have read many commemts
    from some of you folks about clay floors being the best.  (I've
    always been accustomed to wood floors).  So, I have a few questions
    for anyone that can give me some inputs.
    
    1.  Why is a clay floor better?
    
    2.  What does the clay floor do, absorb moisture or does it hold
        moisture and the shavings absorbs it?
    
    3.  What is the process of putting in a clay floor?
                                             
    4.  How often do you have to strip out the old clay and replace
        it with new clay?
    
    5.  Do you really like a clay floor or would you consider something
        else?
    
    I would be interested in knowing any other information, pro or con
    in the use of a clay floor.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Julie

    I am also thinking about redoing my stalls. What I've been thinking
    about is wooden floors with rubber mats. I have not investigated
    the cost of the mats though. The idea is that the mats will be easy
    on the horses' feet, moisture will not be absorbed into the flooring,
    it will be easier to maintain the bedding (seems that with dirt/clay
    floors you wind up with a depression on the ground). Any thoughts
    on this idea?
    
    

    We've had wood, clay, sand, dirt, and concrete at one time or another.
    As I get the money, I'm going to install wood in all of our stalls
    for several reasons, not the least of which is that it gives me
    about 4 inches of protection against the flood we had last week.
    Building up the clay doesn't help because most bedding will wick
    the water to the top anyway.  We have one wood floor now and it
    is by far the cleanest and dryest stall we have.  By the way, I
    thought the concrete was the worst I've ever seen because of holes
    worn in hocks (regardless of how deep you bed) and it is very hard
    on legs (horses and human).
    
    Bob
    
    

    We have clay floors with sand and gravel underneath.  The clay holds
    some moisture but is fairly dense so most of the urine is wicked away
    by the bedding.  We tend to use "moist" bedding (i.e. sawdust) but
    have also used shavings which are very dry.  Our horses hooves haven't 
    dried out with either, although we tend not to use the shavings unless
    we have to since they are more expensive than sawdust.
    
    Our neighbors have dirt floors and wooden floors and use shavings.
    They have to be careful about hooves drying out.  The horses tend
    to mix in the dirt with the shavings (doesn't happen with the clay
    since we packed it down really well) which makes the stall dusty
    and dry.  They have tried mats and plastic on the wooden floors
    to protect the flooring (second floor of barn) but still have to
    replace rotten boards every so often.  I think that may be the only
    drawback to wooden floors.
    
    We put our clay floors in ourselves.  We actually got pond sediment
    which is mostly clay and some dirt.  It does take a lot of work
    (the stuff is fairly heavy).  We first spread it around and packed
    it down with shovels then with a roller (filled with water).  That
    works fairly well.  We put a thick layer of sawdust (6-8") for
    protection before putting the horses in.  We haven't had to remove
    the clay at all, but have had to fill in spots since some of our
    horses dig.
    
    Since the clay doesn't absorb much of the urine, we use hydrated
    lime (not regular garden lime!) to kill the ammonia smell.  You
    have to remove the wet bedding, sprinkle the lime on the clay (fairly
    heavy application so the clay is covered), and then put new bedding
    on top.  You should put enough bedding so the horse doesn't expose
    the lime because it can irritate them.
    
    In general, I am pleased with the way the floor turned out.  However,
    I haven't had to live with anything else and only have my neighbors
    to compare with.
    
    						Jan
    

    Where I board my mare they have dirt/clay floors - (the clay is
    there cause thats what the ground is not cause they brought it in)
    They then put a thick layer of wood shavings in. Taffy has already
    dug a pit even though the ground seems like cement to me. I've also
    been in barns with real cement and don't like them. liesl 

    The clay floor is easiest of all on the horses legs. It doesn't
    pull the moisture out of their legs, it is 'soft' enough to give
    when it needs too and strong enough to stand up to there movements.
    
    My barn has some clay and some wooden floors. The clay is reserved
    for the horses whose legs tend to puff-up. Mine does that but not
    a much as on the wood floors. They re-clay every 12 to 18 months.
    I have helped. It is very hard work but worth it. In stalls where
    the horse likes to dig, the put rubber mats. That deters the horse
    and saves the floor. They also lime occassionally. They use sawdust
    NOT sawdust (too dry), they use shavings and shredded paper (cheaper)
    
    When they installed the clay floors the put gravel down first and
    pakced it, then some kind of heavy paper, then the clay. Tamp (or
    tamped) the clay down. You can rent one.
    
    If you've every play basketball on a concert floor, you know you
    don't want to stand on it all day. Well neither does your horse.
    
    	Nancy
    

    I have a cement floor in my barn -- which was built by a horseman,
    but that'ss another story.  The advantage is very easy cleaning,
    just scrub and hose down.  My horses don't have to stand around
    in them all day, or I'd be more concerned.  I use well-pulled straw,
    about 1/2 bale per 10X12 stall.  If horses have to stay in, I put
    sawdust down first, about 4 inches, and then fill with straw.  I'm
    considering putting mats in the stalls to cut down on the bedding
    cost and to afford a little more resiliency to the surface.  My
    vet said not to put the mats in the foaling stall, though; they
    become too slippery for the foals to stand.
    
    We built a run-in shed that will be enclosed soon.  It stands over
    the fence adjoining two paddocks.  We will dig a drain trench around
    it and fill with rocks and dirt.  The floor of the shed is just
    dirt now, which is OK until the rain comes in, mixes with the dirt
    and makes a muck that never seems to dry.  Once we get the sides
    up and the muck scraped out, I'd like to put in a clay floor.
    
    I'm interested in the idea of putting heavy paper over the gravel
    base.  What is the reason?  To keep the dirt from filtering into
    the stone?
    
    Incidentally, one of my boarders put 5/8" plywood in her stall to
    try it.  The urine crept underneath and was awful to clean.  Plus,
    the horse was a digger and created splinters, albeit soggy ones.
    You can guess that that situation didn't last long!     

    Thanks for the great inputs.  Kept them coming.  I'm still torn
    between a wood floor or a clay floor.  Cement in a stall, for me,
    is not a good idea.  But, at the barn I'm presently at, we have
    cement in the center aisle, with a rubber mat where we cross tie,
    to groom and harness up.  This is good for keeping the barn swept
    and looking nice.
    
    Julie
    

    I've worked in barns with many different types of floors - wood,
    clay, dirt, concrete, even tar.  In my opinion, wood is by far the
    best.  Its easy to clean, doesn't get dug up, and lasts a long time.
    In Maine, you can get Hackmatac, which is a swamp wood, and is GREAT
    for stall floors.  Because its a swamp wood, moisture doesn't bother
    it.  It never rots out.  My parents have had hackmatac floors in
    their barn in Damariscotta for 15 years, and they are still as good
    as new!  
    
    Clay is a nice floor too, but I definately prefer wood!
    
    Joan
    

    My experiences with wood have not been great. I've always had
    wood floors, they splinter and chip, and hold moisture to much.
    The repairs are frequent, I finally ripped them out this past fall,
    I've decided to put in a cement floor and put rubber matting in.
    My horses are only in at night, so they won't be standing in for
    extremely long periods of time.  The mats absorb the shock from
    the cement and save on bedding, however, I deeply bed no matter
    what type of floor.  As far as maintenance goes, Cement is 
    probably the best, but Clay or stonedust (aside from redoing every
    so often) is best for the horses.
    
    -Marianne-
    

I vote for a dirt/clay floor anytime over wood or cement!
A dirt floor is easier on the horses legs and doesn't rot (like wood),
or feel as cold as cement.

The dirt/clay mix will pack down pretty well.  Sometimes the stall becomes
uneven and needs flattening or more dirt/clay.  But I've only done this 
like every two years.  If you do go with a dirt floor it might be a good 
idea to have a "reserve" pile for when you just need to add a wheel barrel 
full every couple years.  Also, how much dirt you need to add to the stall
depends on how much dirt you took out of the stall when cleaning it.  A
manure fork is a MUST (no shovels).  Then you can skim over the top of the
dirt base without shoveling up dirt.

My new stable (officially done today!!) has dirt floors.  I considered having
a dirt aisle ... it would have been less money ... but decided I'd like
the "looks" of cement or wood better.  My next choice was cement -- because I
like to wash tails, sponge off the horse, etc , without worrying about getting
a wood floor wet.  But... I finally decided on wood - because I boarded at
a stable last year that had a cement aisle and it was the coldest, most
freezing barn I've ever been in during the winter.  Plus cement can be very 
slippery and it's best to have rubber matting down on top of it.
Now I have two layers of wood floor - so when the first layer rots out it can
be pulled off and the second layer's all ready to go.  

Melinda

    Julie,
    
    I built an A&B barn (they are out of Concord, NH) last fall and
    it is WONDERFUL!  They have designs for any size barn you want and
    will customize them for you (at no extra charge).  Their prices
    are extremely reasonable and the quality is exceptional.
    
    Why don't you stop over and take a look at my barn...it's bigger
    than what you want but will give you good idea of A&B's workmanship,
    etc.  Also, we had to go through the building permit process in
    Townsend so could fill you in on all this too.
    
    Send me mail....we will be around all day tomorrow.
    
    Jeannie

I'm still working on building my barn.  I decided to try and build my own
to save money (and for the fun!).  Its a pole type construction using plans
I bought in a hardware store.  The plans are very detailed and easy to follow.
They are put out by National Plan Service, Inc.  The plans passed for the
building permit without a hitch.  If you'd like to look them over I'd be
happy to send you a reduced photo copy (about 8 pages).  The original comes
in large blue print form.  Send me mail if you'd like a copy.

 <---------------------- 36' ------------------------->

 +----------------------------------------------------+    ^
 |                              o.   .o   | Tack Room |    |
|| Storage area (hay, ...)       X-tie    |      /    ||   |
||                                        +------   --||   |
|                                                      |   |
                                                           |
         /      /                    /      /              |
 |______/   ___/   _________________/   ___/   _______|    |
 |           |             |             |            |
 |  Stall 1  |  Stall 2    |  Stall 3    |  Stall 4   |   32'
 |           |             |             |            |     
 |           |             |             |            |    |
 |----    --------    -----------    ---------    ----|    |
 .   \            \              \            \       .    |
 .                  Dutch Doors                       .    |
 .                                                    .    |
 .            Covered entrance (patio)                .    |
 +....................................................+    V

There is only one major thing wrong with the plans the way they come.  The
stalls are to small (10x9).  Being new to horses and also given the fact that 
I never built anything like this before, I realized this fact a little late!
For now I'm going to leave out the walls between stalls 1 & 2 and 3 & 4 to
make two huge (10x16) stalls.  Eventually (after the final inspection) I'll
rearrange things to make 3 stalls (10x12).  The plans could be easily altered
to make the stalls bigger in the first place.

As far as building your own vs buying a kit vs having a contractor build it 
for you, you must realize that once you start the project you must be committed
to seeing it through.  Building your own does require a LOT of time.  I've
devoted almost the entire summer working on this (yes that means not much
time for ridding this summer!).  Not just doing the building but running 
around buying material, permits, etc, etc...  But on the other hand, by 
doing the work yourself it is easy to make it VERY custom (I'm putting log 
type cedar siding on mine to match the log house).  Its also very satisfying 
to stand back and look at the progress or have people comment how great 
it looks!

I almost forgot - I've spent about $5,000 to build this barn and the appraised
value is between 13-15,000!  If you had a contractor build it for you, it
would cost you about $15,000.

Jeff

    

    re: 2
    We too built a pole barn.  The man we hired built the entire barn
    with a chain saw, hammer, and nails.  Since we are in SC, we are
    not concerned with having a tight barn, like those in New England.
    We used 4x4 treated posts and ruff sawn pine.  Our stalls (5) are
    12x12 as well as our tack/feed room.  One of the things we decided
    on was to build the loft only over the ally, so that there is plenty
    of head room in the stalls, they seem much larger!
    
    Another thing we did, was to use 2x4 wire fencing from about chest
    high to the ceiling between the stalls and the ally.  This was cheap
    and looks rather ok.  The horses can see what is going on in the
    barn, but they can't hang their heads out and be pests!
    
    One more thing to consider is to have nice doors.  Nice looking
    doors make a barn look great.  Ours are full height doors with wire
    windows.  They have the traditional Z design.
    
    We spent $8000, and didn't lift a finger.  We had another quote
    for $12,000 from a builder of metal buildings.
    
    Good luck!
    Jeanne

    re: 3
    One more thing, our roof is tin.  It's great to sit in the barn
    during a rain storm and listen to the rain hit the roof!  Ah...
    I wish I were there right now!
    
    Jeanne

    re: .3
    Did he have plans for your barn and did it pass final inspection?
    The barn the I'm helping Jeff build is built using 6x6 treated lumber
    and factory made trusses.  The siding is 6.5" exposure tightly sealed
    to keep out the weather.
    
    re:.4
    In Washington state it rains and rains.  Therefore a tin roof would
    be too much of a good (?) thing.  The roof in re: .2 is asphalt
    shingles that match the house.  So far it look great!
    
    Larry.
    
    

    re: .5
    
    Well.....  Down here in South Carolina, you don't need a building
    permit for a barn, hence we did not have any inspections.  We ra
    ran our own power and water lines from the house.  They guy who
    built it for us did not have any written plans, they were all in
    his head.  He just took us to a barn he had built, we told hime
    what to change, and wallah!  I guess that's why I moved to the south!
    :v)
    Jeanne

    I KNOW SOMEONE WHO ONLY HAD 2 HORSES AND THEY BUILT A 3 SIDED LEANTO.
    THE HORSES LOVED IT. THEY COULD GO IN AND OUT WHEN EVER THEY WANTED
    TO (WHICH CUT DOWN ON STALL CLEANING). AND THEY HAD A LOFT UPSTAIRS
    FOR HAY STORAGE. SHE KEPT HER GRAIN IN METAL CANS IN HER BASEMENT
    AND JUST BROGHT IT OUT IN BUCKETS AT FEED TIME.
    IT COST HER 3000. AND IT WORKED OUT VERY WELL.

	Sounds almost like what I have now; it's just a shed, 8 x 16.
	It can get terribly windy and cold in the winter, so I want
	to be able to close the doors up on them- the shed I have has
	doors. It was fine for the horse and pony - I had one 8x11
	stall and one 5x8. But it's not large enough for 2 horses. And I'd
	really like to get all of the horse stuff out of my garage.
	As it is, I can't get my car in now and it's a 2-car garage!!

	Also, someday I'd like to move on to a larger "farm", and think
	a real stable will increase the value.

	thanks,
	-julie

    
    I have a barn on my land which is 2 stall (1 is 12X12, 1 is 12X16?)
    has a cement walkway, tack/feed
    room, hay loft, and outside covered area (the roof was extended
    to cover another 10-12 feet outside.  It has electricity, but no
    running water (apparently, running water makes a barn more
    desirable/expensive).  When the appraiser came out,
    he said that the barn added about $25,000 to the cost of the property.
    This barn is exceptionally well built, but it does show that a barn
    adds considerably to the property value.
    
    Sherry
    
    
    

We are getting ready to put the floor in our new barn and have some 
questions about clay:

1.	Should gravel always be put underneath? If so, how deep?
2.	How many inches of clay are needed?
3.	What is the best method for putting clay down?

Our barn will be 20' by 20' with 2 10' by 10' box stalls, which will open
directly into the paddock in the back, and will have interior doors
opening into the barn.  We're using a post and beam frame and vertical
pine siding.  There will be a loft upstairs for storage.  After the barn is
framed (in the next couple of weeks) we will be doing all the rest of the work
(roofing, siding, windows, doors, interior walls, etc.) ourselves.  

Any hints on:

1.  	Good thicknesses of wood to use in stalls
2.	Where to get horse-proof hinges and other hardware 
           in our area (Stow, MA)
3.	Sources of stable equipment
4.	Benefits of sliding versus swinging outside door (main entrance)
5.	If building a sliding door, pros/cons of hardware mounted inside
  	   versus outside
6.	Installing Frost-free Hydrants

Since we are still planning the interior details of the barn, does
anyone have any hints and tips?  What would you have done differently
for your barn?   

    MY HUSBAND BUILT MY BARN THREE YEARS AGO, ALMOST THE SAME DETAILS
    AS YOURS.  I CHOOSE WOOD FLOORS, BECAUSE I HAVE ONE HORSE THAT
    TENDS TO WALK AND DESTROYS CLAY FLOORS.  I HAVE HAD BOTH TYPES IN
    THE PAST.  CLAY FLOORS NEED TO BE REPLACED WITH TIME AS WELL AS
    WOOD AND WHAT A JOB THAT IS!  WE USED HARD PINE AND AFTER THREE
    YEARS THEY ARE STILL GOOD, EVEN WITH THE WALKER.  I STRIP THEM AND
    ALLOW TO AIR DRY OFTEN, THEY ARE NOT DIRECTLY LAID ON THE GROUND,
    THERE IS AIR SPACE BETWEEN GROUND AND FLOOR.  ALSO, IF I HAD A CHANCE
    TO BUILD AGAIN I WOULD NOT HAVE THE OVERHEAD STORAGE.  ITS A CHORE
    TO LOAD THE BAGGED SHAVINGS AND HAY IN THE LOFT.  WE HAVE RESORTED
    TO HAVING OUR HAY DELIVERED WITH AN ELEVATOR, BUT THIS OF COURSE
    ADDS TO THE COST!

    If you decide to go with wooden floors, use HEMLOCK	for the wood.
    It dries very hard and tends to resist the acidic effects of horse
    urine. We have a couple of teamsters in my area in their seventies
    and they tell me all barns with wooden floors used hemlock for their
    draft horse stalls. I have kept a Belgian on hemlock floor for the
    last 2 years with no deterioration.

    We kind of have clay floors (we got what was called pond sediment
    which contained clay).  I don't remember how much gravel we put
    underneath it.  We probably have 6 inches of clay and we used a
    lawn roller to compress it (after first stamping on it with our
    feet and shovels).  I've also seen machines that can tamp down sand
    and clay (maybe a rental place could help here).  We also have a
    thick layer of bedding (6-8" of sawdust) to protect the clay since
    our horses tend to walk a lot in their stalls.
    
    We used 2" rough cut lumber for stall sidings.  And have had some
    of it split from being kicked by the horses.  We haven't had any
    pieces actually broken off or had any of the horses put a hoof through
    it.  Horses can kick through 1" plywood fairly easily so you don't
    want to use that.
    
    We have a large sliding outside door so we can get in and out with
    equipment, large loads, etc.  It also has a people door cut into
    it on spring hinges so you can come and go without having to open
    the big door.
    
    We also have a self-draining hydrant.  It drains to below the frost
    level, but sometimes you can get condensation inside the pipe which
    will stop you from opening it.  You can use a heat tape on the pipe
    to prevent this (we don't since we have dogs loose in the barn that
    could chew on the heat tape) or use a propane torch to thaw it.
    You can probably get info from a plumber on these.
    
    Hope this helps some or at leasts gives you a few ideas to think
    about.
    
    						Jan
    

    The barn that I board at uses regular ovrehead garage doors for
    the main entrances to the barn.  The have installed small people
    size doors next to these for entry when you don't need to get the
    horse in and out.  They work very well and keep the barn free of
    the drafts you often get when wooden doors start to sag and warp.
    They put these in as they heat the barn all winter for the show
    horses and this keeps the cost down.  Another thing is that the
    can adjust the amount of the door opening for ventilation on days
    when the weather is too cool for the door to be all the way open
    and the barn is too warm for the door to be all the way shut.
    
    
    Pat Leech

    We have overhead garage doors at the stable entrance and at the
    entrance to the drive-in loft.  The only trouble is, when they are
    open, they are only about 7-71/2 feet above the ground.  It doesn't
    take much to break a door window with a pitch fork, or -- God forbid!
    -- a horse's head.
    
    My block barn was there when we moved there.  If I could re-build
    it, I would make the ceilings much higher, at least 10 feet.  My
    aisle is about the width of a horse's length; I'd like it to be
    about 12 feet.  The stalls range in size from 10 X 10 to 11 X 12.
    One good aspect is that, while the stall walls are block halfway
    up, the top half is wire.  Given the 8' ceilings, the openness of
    the stall walls helps ventilation a lot!
    
    We have an opening in the center of the aisle to the loft.  The
    opening is surrounded by an open-top box; one side of the box has
    a door.  SEveral things:  We can throw hay/straw down to the stable
    without falling into the hole ourselves; the box is the perfect
    size to hold a huge fan that fits exactly on the top, still allowing
    me to open the door for hay.  In the summer, we pull air up from
    the stable into the loft.  There is a vent and a fan in the roof
    to help.
    
    The BIGGEST problem with my block barn is that, when it was built,
    no drainage system was installed.  Consequently, on the loft door
    side, where there is an earth berm high enough to reach the second
    story, water seeps into the stalls on that side.  We have tried
    many water-repellent products on the inside of the stalls, to little
    avail.  We will have to use a Ditch-Witch and dig along the barn
    to coat the outside walls with tar and to lay a drain.  Originally,
    rainwater drained into the front of the barn, because the land sloped
    inward, can you believe!  This summer, we hired a dozer/grader to
    fix that problem.
    
    You might consider putting in a second door at the end of your aisle.
    Should there be a fire, it would be helpful to be able to get the
    horses out either end.  When we graded the front of the barn, we
    had the guy grade a field adjacent to the back of the barn.  He
    also lowered by about 4' the soil next to the barn so we can put
    in a door.  The plan is to be able to turn horses out through the
    back door into a fenced pasture -- especially valuable in case of
    fire.
    
    ARe you putting in a tack room?  You might consider drywalling it
    to keep out the dust and/or putting a small air conditioner unit
    in a window to reduce the humidity in the tack room.  (helps keep
    away the green stuff that grows overnight after a humid day!)
    
    My aisle is cement, which works well.  The stall floors are also
    cement, which becomes expensive when I have to use a lot of bedding.
    (I use straw)  I hope to put down rubber matting someday, when I
    can afford it.
    
    I saw a barn with sliding screen doors front and back.  Great idea!
    The owners used a double track for a solid door and the screen.
    Let the air in and kept the flies out.
    
    I am planning to put in a wash room in my former tack room.  The
    water comes in there (the wash tub isn't hooked up yet, but soon).
    AFter I move the saddles and dresser (for bandages, needles, old
    halters, etc.) in the small stall across the hall, I'll have to
    put in a drain at the back of the stall.  Then, I guess a raised
    piece of something at the entrance of that stall to prevent the
    water from sloshing into the hall.  High placed tie rings and a
    bumper of telephone poles (I'm not sure about that part) are next.
    
    I had a new well put in at my house and a line run to the barn.
    We have an outside frost-free hydrant at the paddocks between the
    barn and house and one at the barn, just outside the main door.
    We haven't gone through a winter with them yet, but they're supposed
    to drain completely to below the frost line.  Incidentally, the
    water line goes toward the fenceline, and then turns toward the
    barn.  When I finish my next paddock, I can hook up the line and
    put in a hydrant or some kind of automatic waterer out there.
    
    I would like to put in a ladder from downstairs to the loft.  Where
    the openinng is now, there is no possibility of putting in a permanent
    ladder.
    
    I've said enough.  Lunch is over.
    
    Good luck,
    Merrie

    Here are some personal opinions on some of the questions you asked
    about barns
    
    Floors -  I like wooden floors, preferably hemlock as mentioned
    in an earlier reply for the same reasons, but even pine will make
    life much easier.  It should have an air space between the floor
    and the ground for ventilation.  You may have to bed deeper with
    these floors than you would for clay because of the hardness of
    the surface.
    
    Walls -  Absolutely nothing less than two inch finished lumber
    and even then if a horse wants a hole there it will be relatively
    easy.  If have used two inch lumber covered with sheet metal for
    those who like to kick.  I've also used plywood over the two inch
    lumber with relatively good results.
    
    Doors -  I do not like overhead doors at all (as I said its a personal
    preference) because I find them difficult to lift after they get
    corroded from barn air and you have to open them all the way to
    get something in the barn that you can't get through the walk door.
    A 100 pound grain bag on your shoulder comes to mind.  Also, they
    usually make lots of noise and fold overhead where horse monsters
    are known to live.  We had a mare out for training at a barn with
    overhead doors and all one needed to do was to rattle the door and
    she would start to flip out (note that this was after at least four
    months of getting used to it).  Swinging doors have many of the
    same problems and additionally here in the northeast are a pain
    when it snows.  (Note that all swinging doors should swing out unless
    you have a strong death wish and are not the least concerned with
    fire.)  That leaves sliding doors which when installed and maintained
    properly are quiet, easily managable, and attractive.
    
    
    Good Luck with your project!
    
    Bob
    

    Can anyone suggest where I can locate barn plans?  And/or would
    anyone care to share theirs?  Any recommendations for good 
    contractors for foundation and framework?

    We are interested in building a 24' x 36' barn (right away!)
    to house horses.  We live in Groton, Mass. and would really
    appreciate any help or suggestions.

    Thanks, Meg

    
    	We just put up our "winter doors" for my two cridders last nite
    	and I thought I would enter it as a "handy hint" for those of
    	you that allow your cridders to go in and out as they please
    	in the winter....
    
    	We bought remnant pieces of thick carpet and cut to fit over
    	each outside door (allowing it to be - in my case - two feet
    	wider than the door is).  Then I split it up to about shoulder 
    	height for each horse (from the bottom of the door) so they 
    	would have to duck through it each time they enter their stall.
    
    	We place the carpet up against the top framework of the door
    	(inside the stall with pile side turned in) and take 4 big eye-
    	bolts and poke through carpet and then into the framework of
    	the door.  In the spring, when I must remove the carpet it is
    	easy to unscrew the bolts and they don't rip the carpet.  This
    	really cuts the wind - it doesn't flap because the carpet is
    	so thick and it really is snug in the stall.  Mine like to stand
    	in the doorway with just their heads poking out when the weather
    	isn't to their liking.
    
    	Susan

    Do you have any problem with them chewing on the carpet?
    
    Merrie

    
    	Chewing.... no.  Cody does suck it though... looks kinda stupid
    	too I might add...  ;}  The carpet is so thick that to chew	
    	it he would really have to grab it in is teeth and hold it up
    	and it is heavy!  I do keep my eye out for stay strings and
    	cut them off when I see them.
    
    	Susan

    	RE.3 I have understood that the headroom should be limited so
    that a rearing horse will bump it's head and cease to rear up. It
    wouldn't be good for a horse to fall over in the stall.
    	Just a tip for future barn builders.

    How many of you folks out there have built a barn on a cement
    foundation?  I am thinking of building my barn on a 6 foot 
    foundation, 4 ft. of it will be frost wall and the other 2 ft.
    will be part of the exterior wall.  
    
    What I would like to know is:  Do you find the barn alot colder
    with the walls partial cement?
    
    Do you find other problems with this type of set up.
    
    I know that the cost of the barn will be alot more but I'm feeling
    that in the long run it will be worth it.
    
    I am going to insulate the exterior walls, down to the cement. 
    I just feel that a barn would last a whole lot longer if the wood
    would be setting up on cement instead of being on a footing with
    moister from the outside touching the wood or from the urine of
    the horses.
    
    Any pros or cons would be helpful.
    
    Thanks,
    Julie
    
    

    You could do the same thing they do in houses. Use styrofoam insulation
    up to the sills and then cover it with stucco. However, it won't
    make any difference to the horses. The main things to cover in any
    horse shelter are a comfortable floor, draft-free as possible, and
    have adequete light and ventilation. If you cover those things,
    a 2-foot high outside wall of cement will make no difference to
    the horse. It will, as you surmise, increase the life and stability
    of the structure. It also opens up more multi-use possibilities
    for the structure further down the road.

    My barn came with pine board wood floors BUT......I have had two
    accidents as a result.  In the winter when the snow and ice builds
    up on their shoes or hooves it is like wearing high heels on ice.
    Very Dangerous.  I have resorted to cleaning out their feet in
    cold weather before they enter the barn.  And no amount of
    shavings seems to prevent this problems.
    
    Only my opinion but I have many friends with clay floors and that
    is the way I would go in the future.

    	Clay floors are the best kind of floor,no doubt,but be aware
    that they can be very slick when wet. In addition,they require a
    lot of maintenance. If you have an active horse on them,they tend
    to form holes and become uneven from walking on the wet spots or
    from pawing. They also should be dug out and replaced annually since
    they will eventually become contaminated by urine and feces.
    	Just some info for your consideration.
    
    	I'm considering installing wooden floors with stall mats. I've
    heard good things about them. My reason is that I don't have the
    time to continue to keep th clay floors in the condition that I
    like. I've also had a barn with concrete floors. This was easy to
    clean and maintain,but required about eighteen inches of bedding
    to protect the horses' legs,and I still didn't feel comfortable
    about it.
    
    		George
    

    I would imagine that the slipping on wood floor problems could be
    corrected by making sure the boards are rough rather than smooth.
    One way to making existing wood floors smooth could be the use of
    a router with the appropriate bit. I'd think a bit that would give
    a "V" groov might do the trick. Any more ideas on this.
    

    I was just wondering what you folks thought was a good stall size
    for a box stall.  I am still in the planning stage of my barn and
    would like to know what you folks have and if you are happy with
    it.  I have gotten some inputs from friends but would like to hear
    more.
    
    Also, what is a good aisle size between stalls?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Julie

    	Julie,,my stalls are 12' X 13' and my aisle is 15'. This works
    very well for me,since I sometimes use the aisle as a place to work
    on my car or pickup truck. The stalls are large enough that any
    one would work as a foaling stall in a pinch. The only disadvantage
    is that those big stalls take LOTS of bedding. The bedding lasts
    pretty well,though, especially since all the horses are turned every
    day,except when the weather is very severe, and half the stalls
    have attached runs,that let the inhabitants go outside to take care
    of business.
    
    	George
    

    Julie,
    
    All depends on the size of your horse!
    
    I have a 13.3 pony and she is very comfortable in a box 11' x 11'.
    
    re 582.1> LOTS of bedding.
    
    I tend to only bed half to three quarters of the stable.  This leaves
    ample room for lying down etc.  It also saves on the mucking out
    and the expensiveness of replacing straw/shavings.
    
    Barbara
    

    We have various sizes for stalls due to fitting them into the existing
    structure of our barn.  Ours range from 8' x 10' (OK for foals or
    small horses) to 12' x 12' (our 16.1h horse is in this one).  The
    average size is about 10' x 10'.  We also put up removable walls
    so we can take a wall down between stalls to make a large foaling
    stall.  We also made the aisle walls of our stalls removable which
    helps a lot when you have to repair flooring underneath or rotten
    boards at the bottom of the wall.
    
    We have a large grooming area (12' x 12') but our aisle is only
    about 6' wide.  It's wide enough for a horse to get down, but it's
    a little cramped if you need to groom in the aisle (can be done
    by moving the horse from side to side), so I would recommend a wider
    aisle.  Also with that narrow an aisle you have to put bars up on
    the stalls (or solid walls) so horses can't stick their heads out
    into the aisle and bite horses walking through.
    
    						Jan

    	re. .3 having what I call "top doors" as well as the bottoom
    half doors on stalls helps to keep horses in,regardless of how wide
    your aisle is. Many horses become very clever at working latches,and
    will get out if they can reach them. A closeable top door with bars
    or steel netting can keep them in their stalls and out of trouble.
    
    	George
    

    
    I just built my barn last year and have (2) 14'x14' broodmare stalls
    in it. They are great for a pregnant mare to foal in, but...the cost
    of bedding them is not so great! When I'm cleaning them, I sometimes
    wonder what it would be like to have smaller stalls. I think 12'x12'
    would be the biggest I would build non-foaling stalls. 
    	If you are considering putting rubber stall mats in them...look
    at the dimensions that they are commonly sold in. I think 12'x10'
    mats are $289.00 ...this would be a nice size for stalls.
    	The bottom line in determining what size your stalls are going
    to be is.... You want enough room for your horse to fit in the stall
    and turn around (10'x10') and beyond this you are just giving him
    more space to walk around.
    	I have a 10' wide aisleway in my barn. This is a good size for
    a small barn...but I would prefer 12'-14' minimum in my next barn. 
    We have found that when you drive a pickup truck into the barn,
    there isn't very much space on either side of the truck to walk.
    If you have bales of hay or bedding on either side of the aisle,
    you'ld have to climb over them to get to the back of the truck.
    My husband thought he would use the aisleway to work on our 
    vehicles...but it's a little too cramped, so he works on them 
    outside (unexpected preference) There is however, enough room 
    to stack some bales of hay or bagged shavings or store a wheelbarrel 
    in the aisle and still comfortably walk a horse by them. Also it is 
    just enough room to tie a horse up to a stall door and groom him 
    ...allowing 2 ft behind to walk around the horse. I don't hang tools
    in the aisleway...I suppose you could...but there just isn't enough
    room to prevent a horse from getting hurt by sidestepping into them.
       	I think a 20-25' aisle is what you need if you want to drive
    a vehicle into the barn and park it, but still be able to walk a
    horse safely by it. 
        One of the biggest assets you can incorporate in or preferably
    adjacent (outside) of your barn is an enclosed area with a concrete
    floor to store your sawdust/shavings and feed/grain. If you don't
    build it...you will sorely miss it, when you have a pile of sawdust
    outside in the winter or it rains...You can use bagged shavings,
    but they get expensive!!!
                             Regards, Nancy
    

    Does anyone have any information on companies who build horse barns.
    We are considering a metal structure (cost is the biggest factor).
    At this point in time we have talked to Morton Builders and North
    East Structures.  We are looking for a 20+ stall barn with storage.  
    I am anxious to see one of these buildings, so if anyone knows of 
    a similar type of construction I would like to hear the pro's and 
    con's of it, or just to have an address so I could go look at it.
    

    Tufts University had a lot built by North East Structures.  If you
    want to look at their facility or want to know first hand about
    how they feel about the service, than you can call Dr. Jeff Erickson
    who runs the farm there.  I have no experience with Morton.  I would
    question a metal building, being afraid that they tend to collect
    condensation which drips down, and to their being terribly cold
    in the winter.  A&B Lumber put up the barn where I live. It is 10
    stalls with a tack room and a very large upstairs for storage. 
    There is another kind of barn called Wood Beam ( I believe) they
    advertise in the Pedlar.  The promoter used to be one of my customers
    and she told me that these barns are made so tight that horses cannot
    chew them, and they are fireproof (no empty spaces to feed flames)
    I believe that the principal wood is oak.  If you would like to
    peruse the information I can get you the address.
    
    regards,
    stephanie
    

    Agway also does barns.  They did one for Joyce Gregorian in 
    Hopkinton.  She is at Upland Farm.
    
    As far as the Morton buildings are concerned, I have been in a 
    few and somehow they have taken care of the "drippage" and the nice
    thing about the Metal is the maintenance is lower.
    
    GOOD LUCK
    

    	Most builders of modern metal barns put a vapor barrier and
    insulation inside to handle the condensation problem. By the way,
    meatl barns are no colder than the outside. Consider that their
    main function is to stop the wind. Unless yo intend to heat the
    barn, it's probably better that they are not significantly warmer
    than the outside. Also don't neglect ventilation.
    
    	George
    

    
    In reading this note ... I am wondering what the average cost is
    of a metal structured barn? Also, please share whatever info you
    find on these barns as I may be in the market for one in the near
    future. 
    		Thanks, Nancy
    

    The description of the barn we have had priced is:
    120 x 36 feet (room for 24 stalls)
    two double 9 ft. doors at either end
    24 windows (1 per stall)
    3 coupla's (for ventillation)
    1 ft. overhang on roof all around (for ventillation)
    Supports every 10 ft. for stalls
    This barn does not have a second floor (storage will be in a 
         second building 
    The barn is finished to the point where it is ready for stalls
         to be built
    
          Price: $37,000 (this price does not include any finished stalls)
                         (additional cost of $1,100 per stall if we
                          want them to build the stalls
    
    As far as a ventillation problem we have been told that the
    roof ventillation is more than adequate to eliminate any condensation
    problem.
    
    This price range appears to be an average for the estimates we've
    received 30 - 40 thousand for the structure itself. 

    
    	I am planning on having a 24x24 barn built - with hayloft,
    	and an extra 10' extension on one side to store my trailer.
    
    	I would also like water and power out there..  My question is
    	this:  Is there any reason why I couldn't run a powerline in
    	in the same ditch that my water pipe is run in?  This would
    	sure save me the cost of a least one power pole (about $800)
    
    	Susan

  Susan - 
	Have you asked the power company?  When we were considering having
	the electricity run underground to our house, we were given a
	diagram showing the depth the line was to be buried and its relation
	to buried phone line.  I don't recall any indication of a water line,
	but I do remember that the power line had to be run in it own conduit.

			Good Luck!

					-Caroline

    My barn has a power line, water line, air line and phone line all
    in the same ditch. We put it it ourselves, my husband has a small
    backhoe. We put the electric and the phone into 2 separate conduits.
    We also had to put a filter in the phone in the barn because we
    were getting noise from being so close to the power line. Once set
    up it all works great. This is in PA so I don't know if you can
    do the same up your way without utilitys telling you no, you can't
    do it.
    
    Sandy
    

    re .11
    	You need to check with your local Building Inspector. Depending
    on the town and state that you live in, you will have to get a building
    permit anyway for the barn. Something tells me that it's against
    most building codes to put power lines and water pipes in the same
    trench.
                                                              

    RE: .12,.13,.14
    
    	Thanks for answers!  I will ask the Building Inspector.. good
    	start.  But, at least now I know that it is not a stupid question
    	to ask...
    
    	Thanks again!
    
    	Susan

    
    	Well.. my barn is finally starting to take shape!  I am so
    	thrilled...  The builders that are working on it are doing
    	a super job and they really are being great about cleaning up
    	the site - and no nails lying here and there either.
    
    	I had asked about a water/power line in the notes file before
    	but can't find it now..  My newest question is - if you have
    	had a barn built - what type of water pipe did you use?  We
    	can use PVC or the black flexable hose.  The hose is cheaper
    	and we will have to have one angle in the trench to the house
    	so this may be good to use - but we have no experience with
    	it...  (The trench will be 5 feet deep)  Any comments?
    
    	I have already had a talk with "the guys" (my nags) and told
    	them that the first one to lay a LIP on ANY wood in the new
    	homestead is DEAD-MEAT!!  (I also had to warn hubby not to 
    	chew on the wood and blame the nags! - He keeps buggin' me to
    	get a rocking horse instead - they are cheaper! GOD, I LOVE
    	THAT MAN!........)                                  
    
    	Susan

    Considering the depth of the trench (5ft) I would opt for PVC.
    The black pipe is cheaper up front, but if you have to dig it 
    up because it sprung a leak it gets very expensive all of a sudden.
    I speak from a friends experience as my husband got to play with
    his backhoe in her backyard 3 years after she built her barn. She
    replaced the pipe with orange gas pipe over the black pipe. She
    used this because she had the gas pipe from getting her gas line
    replaced. It was cheaper to buy a 250 ft roll than the 145 ft she
    needed. In your case the PVC may be cheaper than sleeving the black
    pipe.
    Sandy
    

    Thanks Sandy!
    
    	Gee... that could be a REAL expense!  Imagine what it would
    	be like if I did have a leak - but didn't know where!!  We
    	would have to dig the WHOLE thing up - UGH!
    
    	Thanks for writing in your friend's experience!  We do what
    	to do the right thing the first time around...
    
    	Susan

    We just finished a real hard winter at our barn . Two years ago
    when we built the barn we ran a black pipe from the house to the
    barn (about 140')The pipe was 5'down . This past february it froze
    In late april the pipe remained dry. we then figured that a rock
    had heaved va the frost and pinched the pipe .so rather then try
    and find the problem area we took the cheaper way out and put a
    new pipe in a new ditch. this time we laid 4"pvc drain pipe and
    inside that black flexable pipe. this way if the pipe freezes 
    again we can unhook the connection at the barn an pull the pipe
    back into the house to thaw.
    
    ed

    
    	We have priced the PVC and feel that it is very reasonable 
    	considering the trouble it may be saving us (and cost!)  So
    	we are going with the PVC from the start - with a drain valve
    	at the house end in case of a freeze.
    
    	Thanks so much for the notes!
    
    	susan

    I know this is an old note but it appears to have the most info
    concerning barn.
    
    This coming Wednesday they begin construction (finially) of our new
    barn.  Plans consist of:
    
    overall size 40 X 36
    Two story Gambrell
    9 foot ceilings......Is this high enough?
    10 X 12 foot opening in the center aisle ceiling for hay storage above
    four 10 X 12 stall to start with
    Tack area
    Wooden sliding doors 10 X 8
    One crank opening window in each stall with bars
    The barn will have 6 foot knee walls, and will be backfilled with
    gravel.
    
    We know of someone who has some sandy clay to top off the stalls with. 
    Would this be as good as or better than plain clay.
    
    I know this is an old note but the subject has been quiet for a long
    time so if there is anyone who has any suggestions or opinions I sure
    would appreciate hearing from you.
    
    Karen "who can't wait for the work to begin"
    

    I would consider putting rubber mats on the stall floors if you
    can afford it. The amount of work mine have saved me since March
    when I got mine is unbelieveable. We laid ours over crushed limestone,
    figuring if anything got thru the cracks between mats the lime would
    netralize it. Otherwise get extra clay/sand mix for repacking floors.
    Geldings tend to go in one spot that needs refilling every couple
    months. After 2 years of repacking, I would never go back to clay
    floors again. We tried wood floors but took then out again after
    one month, the surface got too slippery and two of my horses always
    sleep laying down. Nothing is worse than watching a horse struggle
    to get up and not make it.
    Sandy
    

    
    	I just thought I would add this info in here as we are still
    	finishing my barn and I have been searching around for a good
    	price on sliding doors, grills and such...
    	
    	I have an order in for a sliding door (with a grill built in)
    	and a hardware kit for it.  Now this does not include the 
    	lumber that goes in it.
    
    	Stall Door (4 x 7 ft) $63.00
    
    	Hardware kit for above (8' track, door hangers w/rollers, stay
    	roller and latch) $69.00
    
    	They also sell stall bars ( 4ft sections) hay racks, feeders,
    	cross tie brackets, saddle racks, bucket holders and bridle holders
    
    	I have been pricing for some time and most places want about
    	$300.00 for the door, hardware and 4ft grill.
    
    	I have already installed some 7ft wall channels that we bought
    	from them and they are great!  Nice and easy to install and
    	you just cut the lumber and slide the boards down in it.  (It
    	would be easy to remove a wall this way).
    
    	The adress is:
    
    		COUNTRY MFG., INC
    		PO Box 104
    		Fredericktown, Ohio  43019

    We recently built a new barn and after reading about the easy
    maintenance of cement with rubber mats I nervously decided on it. I've
    always had clay or wood before and I've had the ussual problems with
    pawing, slipping and wear.  We plan on getting horses in the spring and
    now I'm getting nervous about my decision.  Any thoughts?  
    
    Sharon

    Sharon,
    
    I had cement put in one of my stalls this year because my barn tends to
    get wet when we have a lot of rain, the stalls were previously stone
    dust and sand.  I have been really happy with the cement but would
    suggest you go with at least one mat in the doorway, and if you want,
    cover the whole floor with them.  One thing I have had to watch out for
    is the urine etc getting underneath the mat and along the sides and
    rotting the bottom of the wall.  I try to take the mat out every couple
    of weeks to let the air get to the floor and use lime to dry it out.

    
    We have Cement floors with rubber mats and I wouldn't want to trade
    them for anything. The maintenance is great and there is no wear on the
    floor or the horses feet. The only thing like Linda stated is that you
    take the mats out every so often and get the floor dried out and rinse
    the mats.
    
    Relax, you'll love them!!
    
    Marianne
    

    Thanks,
    I know they might not be for everyone but I feel much better about my
    decision. 
    Sharon

    
    	HI again... yup, still working on the barn..
    
    	And this week's question is: (drum roll please)....
    
    	We have installed several lights and I need an idea on how
    	to protect them from damage and from doing damage to my
    	nags..
    
    	We have an 8' fluorescent light above the main aisle (the kind
    	that will start and light well in the cold) with a wire basket
    	that fits over the light to protect it.  But this store was
    	no help at all when it came to the stall lights..
    
    	I have one light in each stall and one in a side aisle that
    	need something on/around them.  Does anyone got any ideas
    	on how I can protect them?  Are there "special" lights that
    	you can get for stalls?  I would be very interested as I have
    	found nothing so far...                          
    
    	I would appreciate the pointer..
    		Susan
    	

    	The lights in my stalls were put in between the floor joist of the
    second floor.  This way any kind of wire fencing can be used to go from
    joist to joist and protect the "nag" (Aren't you ashamed of yourself
    for calling that poor creature that???)
    
    	I realize that mounting the light this way does cut down on how
    much light you get in the stall, but in my barn the amount that it
    reduced the light wasn't enough to worry about.
    
    	Another thing you might do is put it light fixtures like you
    normally see in a basement, you know with a bare light bulb hanging
    out.  With that type of fixture you can buy safety shields that go
    around the bulb.
    
    	Check at a electric supply store.  They can help you with these
    saftey shields.
    
    			Dave.

    Down here in PA the building codes require dust proof armored
    light fixtures for barns. They cost about $35 around here, have
    a standard incandesent bulb, but provide a margin of safety from
    the possiblity of hay chaff starting a fire. Also all wiring is
    run in metal conduit to prevent mice from chewing on it. I would
    check with an electrician's supply store to find out about this
    type of lighting.
    Only you can prevent barn fires.....
    Sandy
    

    RE: DAVE
    
    	Thanks... I did use the porcelain light fixtures - for the
    	lack of finding anything else and Susan wanted LIGHTS!  I will
    	check around to see if I can find some type of safety shield
    	to fit over it.  I am checking Builders' Square in Nashua NH
    	tonight.  (As of the "poor creatures"  heh-heh-heh... When I
    	get up to feed in the morning (4AM) and leave for work WHO
    	is Fat and HAPPY SNOOZIN' in the SUNSHINE????  MA NAGs that's
    	Who!!!)   
    
    		I often wonder.... Who Works for WHo??  Yup, they's
    
    							NAGs.
    
    	RE: Sandy...
    
    	The Armored Light Fixture sounds GREAT!  I have checked all
    	our available electrician's supply stores around here... no
    	luck.  But that sounds like what I am looking for.
    
    	Susan

    
    
    Another place to try is a local builder that specializes in barns,
    such as Morton or Port-A-Stall. If they don't sell just the lights,
    they might be able to point you to a vendor.
    
    Pat

    I think we got our armored fixtures (or explosion-proof) through
    Coldwell's in Berlin, MA.
    

    I believe in MA it is mandatory to have the armored fixtures. 
    Wholesale electrical sale houses should carry them.
    
    Kathy

    
    	Thanks for all the great info on lights.  I will try and get
    	the phone number of Coldwells in Berlin Ma.  It is also a 
    	good idea to check a barn builder for souces  (I didn't think
    	of that!)
    
    	We plan on boxing in one stall this weekend while waiting for
    	the cement to set on the other's sliding door post.  Last weekend
    	I FINALLY got to wire the fence to the barn.  This gave each
    	horse a good deal of additional room (and grass to munch) and
    	now it is wonderful to go in the barn and have a horse waiting
    	at each stall door instead of taking the feed down to where
    	the horses were penned.
    
    	Again, thanks for the pointers.
    
    	Susan

    Here it is:
    
    Coldwell's
    25 Central St. Berlin. MA
    (508)838-2591

    Barn Building Materials Where did you get the Best Buys?
    
    Hi.  My sister is going to be building an 8-stall barn in the next
    few weeks. They are building the barn themselves.
    
    I'd like to help her find the best buys for the following items.  She
    is located in North Central Mass, but does travel to southern New 
    Hampshire sometimes.
      
      Windows 
      Stall Doors
      Door for Barn Entrance
      Tracks for sliding doors
      
    Any help would be appreciated.  
    
    Thanks, 
    Joanne
    SALES::MILLS
      
    
    

	I live in Mass and am considering building a 2 horse something in
my back yard. Do we need to make a real barn to enclose the horses during the
winter or will they do ok with a 3 sided shell ?

	Thanks,
	-Steve-

    Check with your town's animal control officer/board of health/whoever
    first.  Each town has it's own rules on what is acceptable.

	Re .-1

Thanks for the answer but that's not what I asked. I already did check with the
building inspector and theres nothing special I need in my town.

	-Steve-

    Horses will do just fine with a 3 sided shelter, in most cases. Build
    it facing south will protect them from cold winter winds and snow
    blowing in (usually). My two horses have box stall, but the doors open
    directly onto their turnout area. One is closed in at nite...for the
    simple reason that the other is a bully and will not let her finish her
    feed unless they are seperated. The other has not been closed in a
    stall in close to 2 years now. Personally, I believe this type of
    living situation is the most natural for them. The only drawback I can
    see is a case where there has been an injury and stall confinement is
    required to heal....perhaps you could enclose all 4 sides and put a
    door that can be left open, or closed in emergencies.
    

    I prefer a shelter to a barn any day.  
    
    When we first bought our farm 4 years ago we put up a shelter.  One
    year later we built a large barn.  Well, here it is three years later
    and I have not had any reason to put them in the barn yet (what an
    expensive garage it turned into).                                     
    
    Some of the most common health problems in large barns are due to poor
    ventilation.  Very few vets, I know of none, who will not say that a
    more natural enviroment is healthier for any horse.
    
    A couple of things to keep in mind:
    - MUST face south (protection from the wind & good sun exposure)
    - some type of stall divider 
    - closing in the front somewhat will help reduce snow drifting in
            the winter
    
    Mine looks like this:     
                  _____(14FT)____(20 Degree slope to roof, front to back)
                  |             | 
                                |
                                |
                                |
                                |
                 ( Side View )
    
    
                  |---------------------|
                  |                     |
                  |  |-----|  |-----|   |
                  |  |     |  |     |   |
                  |  |     |  |     |   |
                  |  |     |  |     |   |
                      door      door
    
    the door openings are large enough to drive a tractor in, this
    facilitates cleaning. The stalls are 14 X 12.  There is a four foot 
    divider wall between each stall, so horses can be seperated for feeding 
    or in case of isolation requirements.  We built mangers into the fronts
    of each stall for feeders.   Mine also has a dirt floor, so 
    yearly we use the tractor to bring in clean fill.  Nightly cleanup 
    consists only of raking the floor and scooping out the manure.  
    No fuss, no muss.  
    
    If you are nearby, Winchendon MA, stop by and take a look.  We have
    already had friends copy the design and they all agree it works great.

	Can anyone tell me where I can buy some plans for a 2 or 4 horse barn ?
I have seen mention in here about hardware stores that people have bought them 
from.

	What is pole construction ? I am good at framing and have built 2 house
additions so far but can't figure out how to lay the foundation. Is it poured 
concrete with a sill plate and normal framing ? Is everthing put on sona tubes
then standard 2X12 floor joists ? Is is 6X6 poles sunk into the ground ?


	Thanks,
	-Steve-

With pole construction, you don't put in a foundation.  Rather, you sink
posts at the corners, and elsewhere as required by the size of the barn.
Yes, you would put a footing under the posts.

You would then put the bracing and siding.

When we built a pole barn that was the equivalent of a two car garage, we
sank4 posts on each side, and the back.  We then used 2x6 (or 2x8, I don't
remember exactly).  We ran these at about the middle of the post around
the whole barn.  We put them both on the inside and outside of the posts.
This allowed us to then put 2x4 framing where we needed it to allow for 
the siding.  We also did this at the top and bottom of the posts.  After
doing this, the whole thing siffened up considerably.  One thing - you do
have to be sure to have the posts plumb and square with the frame.

We used trusses for the roof, with plywood and asphalt shingles.

The beauty of this form of construction is that you don't have to spend
the money for a foundation.  This allows you to possibly make it a little
bigger, or do other things (like stalls and what have you).

Once the posts were in, it was almost a one-man operation (with the exception
of the trusses of course).

Ed..

    You can have a "shed" built to your specifications, and
    plunk it down on a poured foundation, or a cement block
    foundation.  We went to a garden show, where a supplier
    did just this.  It comes delivered in pieces and is assembled
    at the site.  Places like Somerville Lumber & Grossman's sell
    "Shed Kits" that you can put together, too.
    
    Also, the back of my Horse & Rider magazine lists a few places
    to buy plans for barns and sheds.   
    
    L

    Some useful reading on pole farm buildings can be found in Rodale
    Press' "Build It Better Yourself". It discusses both construction and
    dseign requirements. They also show several examples that are detailed
    enough for someone with carpentery experience to build from.
    
    A good source for plans is Midwest Plan Service which is a cooperative
    service for a group of state ag colleges. Your local county agent's
    office should have brochures or notebooks about what's available free
    or cheap from the US govt, Midwest Plan Service, etc. I know they have
    plans for 2, 3 and 4 horse barns because I've seen them. They also have
    plans for giant barns for 60+ horses
    
    Midwest Plan Service sells a paperbook showing various styles of horse
    barns, types of roofs etc for something like $7. If I remember right it
    also has lots of useful info on design etc. They also sell plans for 
    things like jumps and gates....

	I have been seeing a lot of barns in the past few weeks and have seen
everything from a stall just large enough for the horse to stand, to a 12X12.
I bought some barn plans this weekend and there stalls called for 8X10. Im
confused about how big a stall should be and it makes a lot of difference on
the size of the barn. I plan to put a 4 stall barn up with just 2 stalls for 
now. I'm also planning on letting the horses come and go as they please and
without a blanket.

	My question is, how big should the stalls be given a horse no bigger
than 16 hands ??

	Thanks,
	-Steve-

    My barn is 2 12 x 12 stalls facing each other with a 10 ft aisle
    between and a 8 x 10 tack room at the end of the aisle planned. (there is
    currently no roof over the aisle, that's next spring). We will also be
    adding a small loft for 'junk' storage, spare blankets, etc.
    
    The 12 x 12 stalls are very roomy, even for my 16.1 hand gelding. Most
    stalls I've seen in other barns are 10 x 10 or 10 x 12, these seem 
    adequate but I personally preferred to build them as large as we could
    reasonably afford to. :-) My barn also opens directly onto a paddock
    and the horses are never closed into their stalls, most of their time
    is spent at the opposite end of the paddock under a thick stance of
    pine/oak trees.....they defineatly seem to prefer the natural cover of
    trees to the barn.
    

    My stalls are 10x12, and my 16h QH has plenty of room.  My 14.2h
    gelding looks lost in his stall!  We made the stalls 10x12 because of
    the size of my QH.  I wouldn't want them any smaller, because of
    his size.
    
    

    When we were building our barn the books I was checking into generally
    said:
    
    8x8 small
    10x10 average
    12x12 roomy
    
    8x10 may be a little tight especially if your book considers the size
    based on the outside dimension of the barn.  For example the 32 foot 
    width our our barn was broken into 11' stall, 10' aisle, 11' stall.  
    After the foundation/wall width figured into it, with the aisle staying 
    an actual 10' each stall was down to about 10'. 
    Generally, if your using outside dimensions, take 1' off for the two
    walls.  Your stalls may end up 7 x 9 which could be tight. 
    
    Ours ended up about 10 x 11 and they seem fine for a 16 hand horse.
    If your using mats they are generally 4x6, so they fit well into
    8,10,and 12 foot areas.  They can be cut fairly easily but you wouldn't
    want to have one just an inch or two short.
    You may want a temporary partition between two adjacent stalls if you
    plan to breed or incase you have a sick horse you need confined
    long-term. 
    If your planning an aisle, 10' is big enough to turn them around in, 
    I can't imagine it much smaller though for a 16 hand horse.
     
    Sharon

    The previous notes cover the facts quite well so I'll just add an
    example. Our current 3-horse barn is 2x4 framing on a concrete slab.
    The nominal size of the stalls is 10' x 12'. By the time you
    subtract the thickness of the exterior walls, 2x4 framing and planking
    on the interior of the stalls, the horses are left with a floor space of
    about 9'3" x 11'4". You might lose a bit more floor space to wall
    thickness in a pole barn because the poles are typically 6" thick
    rather than the 3.5" of  2x4 framing.
    
    BTW, the 9'3" x 11'4" floor space of our barn is adequate for a 
    16 hand 1.5" gelding who usually weighs about 1200-1250. However, I
    think that's a bit on the marginal side. So the new 6 stall barn we
    are building next summer will have (nominal) 12'x12' stalls
    
    John

	I plan to start building my 2 horse barn this weekend. I want to at
least get the poles in the ground before it freezes. I plan to side the barn
like my house with 6" pine clapboards then stain the same color. My question
is, what should I use to enclose the structure after the poles are up. I'm
inclined to go with rough cut 1 X 8's as that will cost me less than $150 
to enclose all 4 sides of a 20 X 20 structure as opposed to 3/4" plywood.

	Any comments ?

	Thanks,
	-Steve-

    Well, I'm far from an expert, BUT I do know that even a half-hearted
    kick from an adult horse can do serious damage to 1" pine.  Are you
    planning for the 1 x 8's to be just the skin and then have the stalls
    be complete boxes within the skin?  That would work.
    
    gwen
    

	The 1X8's are for the outside and the stalls will be lined with 2X8's.

	-Steve-

    We used rough cut for the inside walls in our barn.  Rough cut
    pine DOES shrink quite a bit, (sometimes leaving 1/2 inch of
    space between boards) which is why we didn't use it on the outside.......
    
    L

The roughcut should be fine.  Especially where you said you were going
to put clapboards over that, so any shrinkage would be covered by the 
clapboards.

I would also suggest, if you were not already planning, to put the
boards vertical.  This will allow the water to run out, rather than get
trapped in a pocket.

Ed..

	Re .-1

I was planning on putting the rough cut horizontal since it will be covered by
the clapboards anyways. There should be no water coming in contact with the
rough cut stuff.

	-Steve-

    Will the horses have free access to this structure?  If so, keep in
    mind that they might decide to eat the barn.
    
    Michele

    re .-1
    
    Yes!  I was just thinking the same thing.  Many horses really *love*
    the taste of pine.  I once built a stall of rough cut oine, and by the
    next morning my horse had chewed up the entire top board (a 1 X 10) of 
    his door.  And a friend of mine had horses who removed all the shingles
    from the outside of their barn.

    re .96
    
    It still might be a good idea to put the boards vertically. That way
    any shrinkage will occur horizontally leaving you good nailing surfaces
    for the clapboards.
    
    Adding the other comments on wood eaters....
    We call 'em beavers and pine is real yummy to them so when you plank
    the stalls, don't use pine or even hemlock. That also means no pressure
    treated wood beacuse a) lots of it is pine and b) many of the preservatives
    are toxic if eaten. 
    
    If it's available and affordable, 2"x8"(or whatever) oak is supposed
    to be good for stall planking.
    
    Pine and plywood doors are also "double plus ungood" unless you protect
    the edges with angle iron...even then they'll chew the middle...

	I should be starting on the barn this weekend, at least putting in 
all the poles. The area that it's going in is a pine grove with the soil being
mostly soft pine mixed with dirt. I would imagine that this type of ground is
going to get very messy when the rain comes. What is the ideal soil mixture
to have so as not to get real muddy ? I plan to build the barn in the next 
few months and then have a backhoe come in and replace the soil if need be in
the spring.

	Thanks,
	-Steve-

    
    Soil isn't as important as good drainage!  

	Has anyone tried using a post hole digger when the ground is frozen. I
haven't started yet, maybe this weekend. I'm not sure how frozen the ground is
yet.
	Anyone had experience with this ?

	-Steve-

    Steve, you shouldn't have any problem using a post hole digger this
    weekend.  The ground usually isn't frozen until thanksgiving.  If the
    post hole digger is on a tractor, you can use it even later than
    thanksgiving.

This year may be different, however.  We are getting December temperatures
in November.  If you are going to be digging holes, do it as soon as you
can.  It is hard enough to dig in ground that is not frozen.  I don't
envy you.

Ed..

    Re the post hole digger
    
    If you mean one of those human powered hand tools, get it done ASAP and
    keep your pick/mattock handy. If you mean a two-man gas-powered auger, you 
    have a bit more slack with the weather. Since the ground freezes from the 
    top down, only the first few inches will be frozen even if it's been colder
    than usual. Of course, the easiest way is to get somebody who has a
    tractor mounted auger to dig the holes for you. Trust me! I've used all 
    three methods. It might even be cheaper than renting the two-man auger!
    
    Man, am I glad to be away from that New England weather! It was 42 this
    morning and we've come to think that's cold! There are only a few weeks of
    the year when it ever gets below freezing out here. Snow is an EVENT
    and keeps everybody home because nobody knows how to drive in it ...but
    I digress from the topic!

    
    I wouldn't bother this time of year, either, unless you are having it
    done by tractor-contraption. My ring has been frozen solid for 3 days
    now, it had wet from recent rain, then the temp dropped and it froze
    solid. Wouldn't want to even TRY to dig through it.
    
    I did 72 post holes last summer with a shovel and hand tool digger. NOT
    fun. From experience, save your money and rent a pro! :-)
    
    

    Sure, John, rub it in |-(  Hey, but don't you guys get black ice?

    If I hit something solid I throw some hot water in the hole.
    This may work. If you are not wanting a good workout, hire
    somebody with a tractor-auger.
    
      Carl

	I never thought of someone else doing it on a tractor ! I think that's
the way I will go. Anyone know someone in the Lunenburg, Fitchburg area ?

	Thanks
	-Steve-

    Reply on the barn skin: ours is post and beam, quite similar to poles.
    We ran rough cut 2x4 horizontally, one at the bottom, top, and 2 spaced
    in the middle between the poles.  Then we nailed vertical ship-lapped 
    boards on that. The saw mill can send the rough cut board to be ship 
    lapped before they deliver to you. It will cost a little more but in 
    the end it will save. 
    Our boards shrunk some but they still cover because of the overlap.
    Then, you don't have the added expense of covering the gaps (which, as
    was mentioned here, they'll only tear down on you anyway). Running any
    outside boards vertically invites rot. Even if the rain doesn't get to
    it, which usually happens with the best of overhangs, the bugs and
    clutter it collects will hold moisture and mold.
    
    Ship lapped boards look like this:
    
    ______________  __________________
                  || 
                  || 
                  =========          
                         || 
                         || 
    ---------------------  -----------
    
    Sharon

re .-1

I think you meant that hanging outside boards horizontally would encourage
rot, didn't you?  It is better to hang the boards vertically.  Also, in a
way haven't you imitated barnboard with the ship-lap boards?  If the gap does
get too big from shrinkage, you can put strips of wood over the gap.  This is
quite often done.  I wonder how long the wood would have to sit (and what
would have to be done to prevent warping) for any shrinkage to be minimized.

Ed..

    ooops! Yes in my last paragraph I meant to say that running the boards
    horizontally invites rot (not vertically).  Our wood was freshly cut 
    and milled green, it doesn't get any wetter than that.  It would have 
    been much better to stick dry the wood (layers with 1" x 1" sticks 
    between) but we didn't have time, even a month would have cut the 
    shrinkage a lot.  An 8" wide board lost about a 1/4 - 3/8 inch after it
    was up. The ship lap was 1/2" so they still cover fine. The ship lap
    stops the wind from blowing through the cracks.  Most saw mills have
    dry wood around so unless you have your own trees cut, like we did, you
    don't have to worry about getting real green wood (though it will all
    shrink some with time).  
    
    Putting wood strips on the outside is fine but remember that your only
    going to have an inch to nail into so it's not going to be held on real
    tight unless you use screws.  If the horses pull any off, all those
    sharp little nails will be sticking out for them to step on or
    whatever.  It might never happen, but you may want to avoid it when
    it's so much more work and maintenance than ship lapping. 
    
    

    You can probably skip everything I've said in this note, I just read
    back and realized your putting clap boards over everything anyway. I
    don't know how I missed it. 
  
    I will leave the info in here anyway because it might be useful to
    someone else later who doesn't plan to clapboard.
        
    Ooops again,
    Sharon

    I started sifting through this file and couldn't find anything on
    preferred distance of barn from house.  A friend is building a barn and
    all I could suggest is that it be far enough away from the house to
    minimize the bugs but not so far that you can't see and hear trouble
    when you're in the house.  Any ideas or suggestions?  They are thinking
    about putting the barn about 200' away from the house with a few trees
    to screen the view between the buildings.  The biggest concerns are the
    aroma and the flys.

               I have a similar question to the last reply.  Does anyone
    live, or know of anyone that lives, in Fremont?  My wife and I have
    found a house with some land and were wondering what they may have
    for regulations and/or restrictions regarding having horses in that
    town.  Also their codes as far as building a two stall barn.  
               Any and all info would be appreciated....
    
                    Thanks,
    
                       Bob

    Hi Janice,
    
    I don't know about others but I'd prefer to have the barn closer than
    that for several reasons. Our barn in NH was about 90' from the house.
    We didn't choose that distance because the barn was already there but
    it worked out very well. Given a choice, I might have put it a bit
    closer like 75'.
    
    But 90' was convenient for us in terms of walking back and forth;
    close enough to use the bathroom, fetch clean saddle pads that we
    forgot to bring out, etc. That was also a good distance for
    utilities: we ran the electricty and water from the house to the barn
    which was cheaper to install than a more distant location. If the barn
    had been much farther away, we would have had to install another
    utility line with transformer and electric meter which costs thousands. 
    It's easier and cheaper to repair too. I never noticed smell or flies in 
    the house due to the barn. 
    
    Unfortunately, the new barn we're building is going to be farther from
    the house than I'd like because that was the best site for it and the
    arena. 
    
    John

    
      RE:114
            I just finnished building my first two stall barn. The paddock
      area is about 50ft from my house, the barn is 155ft from the house.
      As long as you keep it clean you won't smell a thing. As far as flies
      or bugs go, I just keep a lot of spray around. Actualy it's not bad
      at all!.
    
      RE:115
            It just so happens that I live in Fremont N.H. Just across the
      road from the rear entrance to Pine Acres campground. My mail address
      is Raymond but my land and house is Fremont. Before I got my Horses
      I called Fremont town hall to inquire about the zoning laws on
      animals and they just laughed and said, If your nieghbors don't 
      complain it's ok!.  I also contacted the building inspector, who
      lives just around the corner, and he explained to me that you need
      20ft from bordering properties, concrete or preasure treated
      foundation 6" to 8" above ground. I told him it was not going to be
      a perminent structure, elimminating the use of concrete, and I could
      not use preasure treated because of possible chewing. I told him I
      had 6 x 12 ceadar beams and I would soak them in oil. He ok'd it and
      gave me the permit.
    
        P.S.  Bob, Before you build your welcome to stop by and see what I
              built for under $800.!!!!.  Write and let me know if your
              interested in checking it out. 
    
     Tom.

    re:114 It is not the barn location that counts, its the manure pile
    location! I had my barn just 30 feet from the house and it still seemed
    too far on a cold winter day. My horses would look from their paddock
    into the glass sliders in the dining room and yell at me if I ate
    anything without giving them something first! It made them more a part
    of the family.
    

             Re:117
    
               Hi Tom,
    
                  Thanks for the info.  We are going today and start
    the mortgage process, so hopefully we'll be moving in by the end
    of June!  I will take you up on your offer to view your barn
    when it comes time to build.  
                  For now, we wait.......and wait.......and wait....
    
               Keeping my fingers crossed,
    
                          Bob

    We built our barn ony 20 feet from the back door. We originally had
    plans to connect it to the house, like traditional New England
    farmhouses, but we have decided against that. It's a small barn (2
    stalls) and the closeness works great for us. We keep it clean so
    there's no smell or flies. The manure pile is about 200 feet away and
    through some woods.

After reading most of the notes in here on barn building (plus scanning two 
books on barns) I still have a question which wasn't really addressed.

What are the tradeoffs for a pole vs frame (foundation) barn?  It appears 
that pole is less expensive to construct but there's gotta be a reason that 
some people use a frame barn.

In a cold winter climate (Colorado), are pole barns really colder or more 
drafty than an equivalent design in a frame barn?  Are there really
problems with wood rot for the wood resting on the ground in a pole barn?
Do you really need a foundation to keep water pipes coming into the barn
from freezing?  (I wouldn't think the foundation would make that much
difference, but would it?) 

	Thanks!

    We have a pole barn (in Elbert Colorado) and it is pretty warm.  We
    insulated our tack room, but not the main barn.  We ran our water pipe
    4.5-5 feet underground and haven't had a single problem with it
    freezing.  We do have one of those frost-free pump handles though.
    
    \Caroline

    We also buried our (pressure treated) poles 6 ft in the ground and 
    embedded them in cement.  We haven't had any problems with rot, but
    the barn has only been up 2 years.  We figure the barn will still be
    standing long after our house has fallen into the ground. :-)  The
    pole barn was less expensive to construct, plus my husband  and me did
    all the work (except for levelling) the site ourselves.  We have a 
    4 stall barn (12x12 stalls - the barn is 48'x36') plus a large tack 
    room and it only cost us ~$8,000.  If we had to have someone build it
    for us we figure (based on prices for friend's barns) that it would
    have cost us ~25,000-$30,000.
    
    \C

    We had no problems with our pole barn...it was about 5 years old when
    we took it over; we owned it for 13 years which was 13 years ago. 
    Still in very, very good condition and we have had some really bad
    winters in those years.
    
    I know we would build another one if it came to it.
    
    Good luck on whatever your decision is.
    

    
    Check with your town office to determine the $$ difference
    on property tax between a pole barn and a barn with 
    foundation/sills.  
    
    JB