Conference noted::equitation

    
    Hi Cindy,
    
    	I dont know if this will help or not but here it goes..
    
    	I thought you only had to have "commercial/small business"
    	insurance if you had a smll business. I dont think 1 horse
    	counts as a "small buniness"  you home owners should cover
    	anything (god forbid) that happens.  A friend of mine has
    	8 horses she boards and she has a "small business insurance"
    	if you dont find any answers in here, let me know and I will
    	give her a call for you and ask her where and how much..are
    	you in Mass? I only ask becasue the prices *might* be different
    	in other states
    
    	Good Luck..Louisa

    Louisa, sorry I should have thought to put in what state I live in, I
    live in New Hampshire.
    
    Cindy

    
    Our insurance broker here in Mass. said boarded horses would be covered
    under home owners insurance in the event of accidental death  caused
    by fire or acts of mother nature. Insurance would not cover personal
    injury to the horse. This was a signed agreement by both parties
    that both horse and owner were on property at there own risk and
    that property owner could not be held responsible.
    
    I could include a copy of our agreement if your interested?
    

    the woman I board from has agreements signed by all her boarders which
    were drawn up by a lawyer.  I'll ask her if I can have a copy to send
    you if your interested
    
    
    	Michele

    We use Farm Family Mutual Insurance Co thru their Littleton office.
    
    It has been a while since we had the conversation so I may be a
    little rusty on the exact language but we were advised by our lawyer
    that a Disclaimer is not worth the paper it is written on if there is 
    even the remotest chance of proving negligence, which can be construed 
    as not having the horse under constant surveylance (sp).
    
    True about the loss due to fire etc but if the horse gets out of
    your pasture, gets hit by a car, the people in the car and the horse
    owner can both come after you. Farm Family will sell you a blanket
    Mega-Buck Liability policy to keep someone else from owning your
    house in the event of an insident.

    Good luck for the future ! Anglos are good event horses, being highly
    strung.
    
    Does anyone reading this have any experience with insurance companies ?
    If not, this is just a word of warning to make sure exactly what your
    policy covers, as I'm in the middle of a very nasty experience.
    
    I insured the filly I bought in England, with great difficulty (living
    in one country and insuring in another is not easy). After having
    bought the filly last April, I left her in England, until the time
    came for her to be broken in. At Christmas I learnt that she'd got
    her near hind leg tangled up in some wire whilst out at grass,
    resulting in a very nasty wound, which the vet has been treating once 
    a week. She's taking antibiotics, having the wound dressed, ...
    Fortunately, nothing vital was injured, and she's not lame. However,
    vet's fees to date are over 600 sterling pounds, and as treatment will
    probably continue for the next 4/5 months, the cost is likely to be
    very high. I sent the invoices off to the insurance company to be
    reimbursed, and then had a letter from them saying I wasn't insured for
    this sort of claim. As far as I can see, I have three solutions, either
    ask the livery stables if they are insured, ask them to share the
    costs, or prove negligence. This is just to say that insurance varies
    from country to country. Here in France, where I also have a horse
    insured, if the horse is injured at the livery stables, then their
    insurance covers. In England, apparently, it is the horse which is
    insured, i.e. the owner.
    
    We live and learn !
    
    Patricia
        
    
        

    This is a wierd situation, but one I'm wondering if anyone else in
    here has run into....I now have a very nice sand ring behind my house,
    as of this week. There is also currently a new stall added to the
    barn, and once that's complete I will have both the horses at home
    at long last. Our next door neighbors also have a horse, and expect
    to be getting another within the next few months as well. They have
    asked if they can use the ring at times as their own set up is very
    limited (they don't even have turnout right now, but are planning
    excavation soon and won't get the 2nd horse until it's done). I have
    explained to them that I want to keep my ring for private use only,
    and that it will be doubling as a paddock a lot for my own horses,
    and that the time I can allow them to use it will be very limited,
    say once a month or so for about an hour. I don't want a lot of
    traffic in there, and I really don't feel I have the facilities to
    have 4 horses going in and out frequently. My other concern is that
    the new horse they are supposedly getting is an unbroken 5 year old
    stud. I drew the line at that and told them that unless they geld
    this beast that he won't be allowed on my property for any reason.
    I have a witchy mare, and don't need the liability risks should
    they get hurt.( Don't misunderstand, while I have no problem with
    stallions that are handled properly, I know these people well enough
    to know that they are inexperience horse owners and that them
    having an untrained stallion around is akin to Bart Simpson playing
    with an atomic bomb or something.) Anyway, this whole situation has
    got me wondering about insurance coverage....would it be likely I
    would need something to cover them riding the other horse (a reasonably
    well-mannered mare) in my arena on occasion? I do intend to call my
    insurance agency and ask about it, but I'm wondering what other
    (if any) experiences other noters have had with such things??

	Re: .7

	I know nothing about insurance, however the situation which you
	describe would make me very nervous... I can just imagine how much
	money a lawyer might be able to get when they sued you after they got
	dumped off their horse on your property when your dog ran out from the
	bushes and startled their horse.... Eek, I can just see the $$$ adding
	up...

	It would be interesting to find out what your insurance company says
	about it... Could you keep us posted?

	Sounds like your ring will be very nice!

    Are these people *nuts*?  Beginners with an untrained stallion???  
    Sounds like a potential disaster.  You are definitely right in banning
    this horse from your property.  Course, unless they have good fencing,
    you might have him visiting anyway, depending on how close his yard
    is to your mare's.  As for letting them use your ring, I'd certainly
    not encourage it.  I suppose you could get around the liability angle
    with properly worded legal contracts, which may or may not hold up in
    court...  But unless this person is someone you enjoy riding with and
    training with -- and it doesn't sound like this is the case -- then
    you have a perfect right to keep your ring to yourself.  I'm sure you
    put a lot of work into it, and it will also be a lot of work to keep
    it in shape.  Besides, one of the benefits of having the critters at
    home is having a ring to yourself.  8^)
    
    -ellie  

    You could have them sign a Waiver of Liability to cover
    your *....
    
    L-

    re -1
    My lawyer has told me to forget about having people sign waivers.
    Even a waiver is not a guarantee against lawsuits.  They can still sue
    you and win if they can prove you negligent.  And it's really chancy to
    depend on a non-horsey judge/jury to decide what's negligent and what
    is not.  All a waiver can do is make people *think* they can't sue you.
    'Till they see a "have you been injured - call 1-800-lawyers" ad on TV!

    I wouldn't let the neighbors use the ring if I were in your situation. 
    Basically for reasons already given, insurance, legal liability, etc.
    
    When we moved a couple years ago, we actually had trouble even GETTING
    insurance simply because we HAD horses. The insurance co. was very
    concerned about liability(theirs) if a horse should get loose, etc...
    
    One  of the things they *SPECIFICALLY* asked about was whether or not
    anyone else would *EVER* ride our horses or ride their own horses on
    our property...I feel quite sure they would not have given us coverage
    if we either had guests ride our horses, use our ring, or boarded a
    horse for somebody.
    
    Speaking of insurance companies and their ridiculous behavior, there
    was another time that our home owner's policy was not renewed simply
    because we had a DOG. It seems that the co. had paid too many dog bite
    claims and decided not to renew the policy of anyone who admitted
    having a dog! Of course, if you fibbed and said "No", they would have
    probably rejected any claims!!!!!!
    
    John

    Hm...sounds like a situation best avoided all around. I haven't
    called my insurance co yet...no time, this weekend was spent moving
    my barn (a terrible, nervewracking experience that I never wish to
    put myself through again). When I do get in touch with them I'll
    post thier response here...problem is that while the above mentioned
    barn-moving was occurring these friendly but fool-hardy neighbors have
    allowed me use of their spare stall, and my mare has been there almost
    a week now. She's due to come home tommorrow, if this hurricane doesn't
    reek havoc on the half built part. I feel I owe them a return favor....
    but then perhaps buying them a bag of grain would be sufficient.
    Thanks everyone, for the input!
    

	Re: .13

	I'd say, buy the bag of grain ;^)

	Good luck with your new barn! It sounds wonderful!

    I belong to Farm Family Insurance Co., my agent is in Northboro, Mass.
    
    This company now carries insurance for livestock owners.
    
    1. We have our house insured with them and we added onto the home
    owners policy my horses. that is if they were to die or get out onto
    the streets and hurt or damage something or one we were covered. I 
    think my horses they covered the value up to 5,000.00 each if death.
    We also took out a one million dollar unbrella protection on the 
    property.
    
    2. I teach lessons and so I also took out liability insurance and 
    in that I took the coverage up to 500,000.00 on our property as to
    not loose our house. It is an insurance they sell to horse owners
    to cover you for boarding, lessons, people riding on your property,
    etc. It can also cover for horse shows, trailering, you name it.
    
    You can also go into the horse news papers and there is one or two
    companies listed in there thatsell insurance for horse owners. I found
    Farm Family to be the cheepest of them.
    
    I hope this helps. 
    
    terry

Remember, you're talking two different types of favors here.  One is of limited
duration, the other is ongoing.  If you *really* feel you need to return a 
favor, return one of similar value (if they need a stall for a week or so and 
you have a spare one, or they need a horsesitter for a couple weekends while
they go away)  You've spent considerable time and money improving *your* turnout
area (which you just happen to be using as a riding ring).  What if they want
to use the 'ring' when you have a horse turned out and are not at home?  What 
happens if something happens while they are putting your horse away (leave the 
stall door unlatched and *your* horse gets out and runs into the street, 
horse spooks and gets away from them or hurts them...)

What if one of their horses *breaks* the fencing on *your* ring/turnout.  What 
obligation do *they* have (other than moral, which doesn't mean a whole lot) to
repair the damage in a timely manner (remember it's *your* horse that doesn't
get a turnout because *their* horse broke the fence).

They've spent no money helping prepare the ring, and would probably spend 
nothing (time or money) helping maintain it.  Who is going to be inconvenienced
if something goes awry.

I'd definitely go for a limited duration return favor.  Neigh-borliness only
goes so far these days...

    Hi Kathy,
    
    You have some good points to consider! I had already decided (and told
    them) that under no circumstances can they use it with the stallion,
    and cannot use it with the mare either unless I am home, for the simple
    reason that I do not allow anyone to handle my horses unless I am
    present. (obvious exception being a vet in an emergency). Even now
    while she is in their barn (and coming home tonight, thank god!), they
    are not actually handling her, just lending the stall space.
    
    As far as breaking a rail or something, that's a good point, and one
    I hadn't thought of....I think I will take the advise of everyone I've
    mentioned this to and buy them a bag of grain and perhaps a nice
    leather halter or some such thing as well, rather than take the risks
    of them getting hurt on or doing damage to my property....thanks again!
    

    
    
    	Not regarding tissue damage - but you have insurance for your
    	horse?  Where ? Which agency - How much a year?
    
    	thank
    	Donna

    
    My person who owns the land where my horse is, just went to renew
    his house/land insurance and he was told since he had horses on the 
    land and since he has boarder they can not cover him.  He can not find
    a company to carry him either.  They all say it's to much of a
    lilability.  
    
    Alot of the notes are old in here and alot of insurance issues have
    changed - can anyone suggust something?
    
    Louisa

    The Yankee Horseman's Peddlar always has adverts from Insurance Brokers
    who deal with various aspects of horse insurance every month. I am told
    that the Massachusetts Family Farm Bureau Insurance seems to be the
    best value but they will want to have all your insurance business. The
    nearest agent I know is in Littleton, MA, in the old egg station on
    Great Road.
    
    The base problem is that having boarders makes a stable a "commercial"
    establishment and does a number on insurance rates. Otherwise without
    boarders, horse liability can be a rider (no pun intended, that's what
    it's called) on homeowner's insurance from a knowleagable broker. 
    
    The American Horse Shows Association also offers various insurance
    policies to its members, simple liability is included with full
    membership. Commercial liability policies cost extra.

    
    We are not looking for HORSE INSURANCE.  We want to insure the
    house and land the barn sit on.  No one will insure the house/land
    because we have horses on the property, and we have boarders.
    
    My gril friend ran into the same problem 2yr ago.  She bought
    an expensive horse and she wanted him on her home owers policy
    incase of his death - well she was droped as quick a blink of eye
    as soon as her insurance angeny heard she had a horse - even
    thought it was not on her land.  Her company had 2 cars, a horse
    trailer the house and land on her policy and they didn't care that
    they lost her business - they did'nt want a horse associated with
    her policy
    
    well, the same thing is happening to the barn I am at - no one
    wants to insure the owers house becasue he has horses on his land.
    
    HELP!  I love my barn, and I don't want to my horse to be homeless
    
    Lou

    That would be a shame if you lost a place to keep your horse. Perhaps
    if you wrote up an agreement that you wouldn't sue him, and he wouldn't
    be libel if you got hurt, etc., etc., and had it noterized or had a
    lawyer help you, you might be able to work it out with him.  
    I'm sure the insurance company wouldn't like it, but he might take the 
    risk himself.
    
    good luck,
    Sharon

    You might also want to try Farm Family Insurance.  They insure a "lot"
    of farmers.  I don't have the number here as I am moving but there is
    an office in Littleton and Northboro, Mass.
    
    Good luck...
    

    re .21
    
    By "horse insurance" in my reply .20 I include all aspects of insurance
    for horse related activities including for the property on which they
    are kept and the people who keep them. Liability is the primary risk
    against which folk want insurance. These brokers will also insure your
    horse for mortality or medical coverage if you want that.
    
    Most insurance brokers don't know and don't want to know about horses.
    I investigated getting liability insurance for driving and found the
    brokers I mentioned have a number of different policies for property
    owners, commercial stable owners as well as horse owners.   

    
    On another note regarding insurance:
    
    What do you have to do be a "farm"?  Is there any good reason to
    be a "farm" - do you get any cut on your taxs for being a farm?
    It is easier to get this type of insurance if your a farm? Are
    ther pros and cons on becomming a farm?
    
    Louisa

    I'm not sure what the tax advantages(if any) are to being a farm. The
    tax laws have changed a lot in the past 8-10 years. In the '70s, you
    could file income taxes as a "farm" if you had more than $500 income
    from farm products. The boarding stable where we kept our horses sold
    firewood to make the $500 limit in order to file as farmers. So, I
    guess there was some advantage back then. With inflation, the IRS has
    probably increased the minimum a lot too.
    
    Insurance companies have different rules. When we moved to our current
    place 5 years ago, we asked the local farmers' insurance agent to write
    us up an estimate as a farm plus our car/trucks & other insurance. He
    said he couldn't give us farm insurance unless we had $5,000 income
    from farm products. He also said he couldn't give us a regular
    homeowners' policy because we had too much land! I think their limit was
    5 acres!
    
    Went to another agency and got what we needed without any problems.
    So, check around

    
    
    Hi.  I'm late to this discussion but I'd like to know what the current
    insurance situation is.  My wife and I recently purchased land (with a
    house) in Pelham, NH. for horses.  It's 4 acres, but it abuts 170 acres
    of town land with trails.  The trails are frequently used by others for
    horses. 
    
    I talked to the Metpay rep about insurance and he said that the Metpay
    program didn't include any property involving horses.  That was my
    first clue that there was more to this than I expected.
    
    Once I get the barn and paddock built, we'd like to move our
    horse there.  My wife is already talking about getting a second horse
    for company.  Our current plans are as follows:
    
    - We will not live here. If we can get the house in reasonable shape,
      we'd like to rent it.  
    
    - Our current house is 10-12 minutes away.  My
      wife plans to do most of the daily work herself, with a neighborhood 
      teenage horse lover helping out as needed.  We've know her since she
      was born and and her parents are close friends.
       
    - We would like to take in a boarder for the third stall, perhaps
      belonging to whoever rents the house.  That would be a nice rental
      situation for a horse lover.
    
    - My wife and kids are into 4-H.  It's almost a certainty that some
      other 4-H'ers will show up to ride from time to time.
    
    So, my questions:
    
    - What is the current insurance situation like?  
    
    - What would the affect on the policy be if we were to board a horse?  
      If this makes a big difference, we might not do it.
    
    - What should I expect for an annual premium?
    
    - What's the best insurance company for this type of insurance?
    
    
    If I've forgotten anything, feel free to add it!
    
    Kevin
    
    
           

    
    You ask alot of great questions.  I don't have all the answers, but I
    can tell you (from experiance in Mass - could be different in NH) that
    alot of insurance companyes wont touch you or will drop you if you have
    a horse on your land.  You'll have to search for a horse and house
    insurance company.  The rates are alot more then MetPay.  
    
    The owner of our barn/land had trouble when he mentioned by accident
    that had horses - and they dropped him like a hot potato.  I don't
    rember who he ended up with for his insuracne
    
    Then his daughter, wanted to get her horse on her house insurance
    (incase it died) and her insurance dropped her as well.  Even thou the
    horse is no on her propterty.
    
    She to had to search.
    
    

    
    	I believe Lenny Roy is an equine insurance saleperson, if you can't
    find his number I can scrounge it up for you. He's also a judge and
    trainer [in case you don't know of him]. 
    
    Sherry
    

    
    
    So far we've talked to Metropolitan, which basically said "Horses?  Go
    away..." and State Farm in Hudson NH, which said that we would have
    problems because we didn't live on the property.  
    
    The fact that we're there every day, and certainly more than we'd ever
    be at a "vacation" home didn't impress them.  But State Farm didn't say
    no, they want to talk to the underwriter and perhaps look at the
    property. I get the feeling that they might do it, but it won't be
    cheap.
    
    Farm Family Insurance is next on the list.
    
    Kevin
    

    We have horses on our property (in NH) and had NO
    problem at all with Liberty Mutual.  They could not have 
    been nicer about helping us protect ourselves.
    
    I would highly recommend (Mr.) Chris Christensen 1-800-562-3936
    
    Tell him Dick & Cheryl said, "hi".  It's not like we get a commision or
    anything - he's just a nice guy.  And honest, too.  We've had no
    probelms filing claims (tho so far they have not involved our horses
    thank goodness!).  He's always very helpful.  And for the amount of
    land we have (~10 acres) and size of our house (4 bedrooms +) our
    rates are not bad.
    
    Good luck,
    Cheryl
    
    

    
    Re: -1
    
    Thanks for the tip, will do....
    
    Kevin
    

    
    You also might see if there is a Farm Bureau office around in your 
    area.  

    We've never had any problem finding home owner's insurance (etc)
    through an independent agent even though we keep our horses at home
    (and they know it). The insurance company's questions related to
    whether or not we were going to board horses and/or give lessons
    because those are "business operations" and cannnot be covered under 
    a home owner's policy.
    
    It sounds like your major problem is that you will live somewhere else.
    I can see where this would give an insurance company a "No way!"
    attitude. The biggest risks to an insurance company are that horses
    a) attract uninvited visitors(esp. kids) and b)get loose  and cause 
    damage for which the owner (and in turn the insurance company) must pay.
    if you're living somehwere else, you would have a harder time
    convincing them that you can control those "risks". Good luck and try
    an independent agent.
    

    I'm the same as John/Jan - never had a problem with my independent
    agent and our home owner's policy.  I was asked similar questions, too,
    that all centered around whether I was going to be making profit (most
    defineatly not!) in anyway or if the resident horses are hobby only
    (most defineatly so).  
    
    I'm sure you can understand their concerns with your situation, however
    - particularly where you intend to rent the house out.  The potential
    'situations' that could arise from tenants, possibly non-horse
    orientated, sharing a homesite with horses owned by someone else are
    staggering.  I'm sure you've thought of all that ahead of time, but
    you'll need to convince the insurance agent of that!
    
    Good luck!