Conference noted::equitation

    Probably most of the Thoroughbred afficiandos who read this notes
    file know about this place, but I never did, and I thought it was
    so neat that I had to tell somebody.... so:
    
    There is a place called Pedigree Associates, that you can call and
    get produce/racing pedigree information on your horse.  You don't
    even have to know the registration number of the horse - just the
    year of birth and the name.  A computer printout of the information
    costs $20, and a formatted sales catalog-type version costs $75.
    The woman I talked to read alot of the info to me over the phone,
    since I need the info as soon as possible; the printout will be
    in the mail tomorrow.  I was surprised at the amount of information
    that I could get so quickly.  Maybe I'm just easily impressed.
    
    The phone number is 606-253-0472.  They bill you directly, but need
    a credit card for reference.
    
    The bad news is, I am selling my broodmare and someone who breeds
    racehorses is interested in her; unfortunately, there's not alot
    of quality in the dams, and that is what really sells a racing
    broodmare.  Oh well, it was fun getting the information anyway!

      The most recent issue of Horse Illustrated has a list of 
      registries, and I'm pretty sure it includes the Jockey 
      Association. I just acquired a QH without papers and was 
      looking through books for the QH association, and the 
      magazine showed up the mail the next day. Fortunate timing! :^) 
    

	When I got my TB two years ago, his papers never found me (though
	the former owners claimed to have sent them).  I contacted the 
	Jockey Club in NY (after calling the Jockey Club restaurant by
	mistake!) and got all the information...

	What I remember is the fee of $100.00 and the need to get the former
	owners to fill out a form describing what happened to the original
	papers... supposedly, the former owners were resposible for the fee
	and the paper work...

	Considering my TB is a gelding, I decided that $100, plus grief wasn't
	worth it.  Instead I called Pedigree Associates (listed somewhere in
	this notes file) and giving his tatoo number, year of birth and brief
	description (grey)... they sent me his "pedigree" and a list of 
	different pieces of information I could ask for... such as racing
	record, etc.

	If your critter isn't breedable, you may prefer this route.  I'll
	dig out the NY Jockey Club's phone number tonight and post it if
	you're interested.

					-Caroline
    

    I agree with .2, in the years I have dealt with standardbreds, 
    someone I knew had lost a set of papers, and many phone calls
    to the USTA, lots of hassle, and about $300 later, he got the
    papers.  Papers are nice to have if you can get them cheaply,
    and reasonably hassle free, but if not, that pedigree that .2
    spoke of should be all you really need.
    
    

The main reason why I would like to get his papers is to confirm
    his true age.  The woman that I purchased him from sold him as
    a five year old.  Since I purchased him, I've had the dentist
    question this (the grooves on the two upper side teeth indicate
    he may be more like 8 or 9) as well as the barn manager where
    I currently board.  She looked at the tatoo which begins with
    the letter J.  She thought that the letter "J" was used for
    foals born around 1979 or 1980.
    
    I don't even know if his papers will tell me this information...
    maybe I'm going about it the wrong way?
    
    I questioned the former owner who had never bothered to get the
    papers either.  She did however give me a copy of a negative 
    coggins test from Rochester (where she had him vetted out when
    she purchased him) which places his age around 5 years old.
    
    I suppose I could just take her word and the paper from Rochester
    but now I am really curious.  I also feel that in terms of training
    him, there is a big difference in his physical and mental 
    maturity at age 4/5 as opposed to 8/9.....any thoughts??? 

    Registration papers will give you the horse's date of birth so you'd
    be able to get his age from them.  You may also be able to get this
    information from the Jockey Club without having to pay money for
    the papers.  The service that does pedigrees may also be able to
    give you this information.  Presumably they do the pedigrees from
    registry volumes (books published listing registered horses, usually
    done by year or groups of years).  Those should also have your horse's
    date of birth in them.
    
    When Coggins tests are done, the vet asks you how old the horse
    is.  You don't have to prove that the horse is that age and they
    don't look at the horse's teeth to see if you are approximately
    right.  So the former owner probably just told the vet that the
    horse was 5 and that's what got put on the Coggins test.
    
    If you feel you need to know his age for training purposes, then
    you should be able to get it without having to pay for his papers.
    
    						Jan

	Your prefix may indicate an '80 foal!  My TB was born in 1981 and
	his tatoo starts with "K".

	You could just call the Jockey Club and asking them to confirm that 
	"J" indicates a 1980 foal crop. 

	( Nasty thought, does the letter the tatoo starts with indicate year
	of birth or year of registry?)

The J stands for foaled in the year 1980.  The Jockey Club is who
you will want to talk with.  The Jockey Club has recently moved
their registration and blood-typing office to Lexington, Kentucky.
Their administrative office are in New York City.  I can't
remember how much the search cost, but they will need proof
of ownership dating back to the last owners their records will
show.  You can call or write them at the following:

THE JOCKEY CLUB
821 Corporate Drive
Lexington, Kentucky
40503
800-444-8521

The tatoo usually indicates that your horse has been on the track. 
Getting a hold of the papers may tell you about your horses
beginnings which will aid you in providing or understanding 
what happens to him in the future.  Sometimes however racing
records are not complete or unavailable.

The papers they will send to you will have a pinkish tent to them
meaning they are copies.  Originals are all white with a blue
border and have the Jockey Club seal along with previous
owners signatures and sales dates.

Hope this helps.
    

    Thanks for all the information everyone.  I've started the
    search already....it will be interesting to see what comes
    up.....or maybe it won't????

    
    
    I have a QH mare whose pedigree and birthdate I am trying to
    trace. I was told that the QH Assoc wouldn't help unless I
    have her ID number, which I don't because I don't have her
    papers. The previous owner doesn't have the papers, and has
    no idea if the owner previous to her has them. All I have
    is her registered name and her age (which I'm pretty sure 
    is accurate within 1 year). She does have a freeze brand (not
    a serial number, just a single digit) on her neck.
    I called the Pedigree Associates mentioned earlier and they 
    only do Thoroughbreds. I have traced Arabian information by 
    looking them up in the stud books and was wondering if the same 
    can be done for a QH. Does anyone have any ideas on where I 
    could find a set of QH stud books, or any other ideas on how 
    to track down this information?
    
    Thanks!

    The QH registry is computerized that is why they need the number.
    They are keeping track of over 3 million horses. You can get the
    stud books from them if you can figure out from the horses age which
    one you would need. I beleive they are indexed by registration numbers
    not by year so if you know the number of another horse of the same
    age you can use that to get the right book. I would call the
    association and see if they would do a search by name for you. I
    have talked to them and found them to be very friendly and helpful.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Sandy
    

    
    
    Another place to try is Premier Pedigrees in Washington state. 
    They have the stud books on computer and can look up the horse if
    they have the registered name and the birth year.  I don't have
    the address with me but will bring it in tomorrow and will post
    it then.  They also do Thoroughbreds and have several different
    types of pedigrees available. 
    
    
    Pat
    

    
    
    The address for Premier Pedigrees is:
    
    
    Premier Pedigrees
    6920 River road E.
    Puyallup, Washington
    98371  
    
    Phone (206) 840-2020
    
    
    Pedigrees available are:
    
    AQHA, NCHA, Thoroughbred
    
    
    Premier Pedigree		$50.00
     Includes:
      AQHA, Appendix, and NQHBA horses a seven generation (127) horse
      pedigree with breeder, color, number and foaling year for the
      first 3 generations.  Coverage includes AQHA open and amature titles
      AQHA champions, NCHA titles, Race ROMS and speed index with stakes
      winners and and earnings.
    
      TB's are listed with earnings, wins, champions, and stakes info.
    
      Also includes extensive production records on each mare and stallion
      in the first four generations. All offspring with performance and
      halter records designated by name and title.  TB sires and dams
      are researched for QH offspring and race and show records.
    
      Most reports are 8-12 pages in length and are done on a laser quality
      printer.
      
    
    Quater Horse Jiffy Chart		$12.00
    
       A six generation (63) horse pedigree for AQHA and Appendix horses.
       
    
      Quarter Horse Jiffy Chart Plus	$30.00
    
       The Jiffy Chart as described above with a premier pedigree style
       get record on sire and produce record on the dam.
       
     
      TB Jiffy Chart			$20.00
    
       A six generation chart with names, foaling years, and North American
       race records on the first 4 generations.  Champions are designated,
       Earnings, major stakes, are named and number of wins given.
    
    
    
    All of the charts are mailed flat in a sheet protector.
    
    
    

  
  Thanks for that information. I called Premier Pedigrees and they 
  were very helpful. They referred me to someone at the AQHA and I 
  now have the information I was looking for. I may also be able to 
  locate her registration papers too. This is wonderful! 
  Thanks for your help!

  K.  

I have a question about the American Quarter Horse Registry.

I bought my quarter horse last year and I have his papers.  The name on them
is not the person I bought him from (my instructor).  I also have 2 transfer
reports, signed by the seller at that time.  My question has two partsF:

1.  Is it recommended by you all that I get Higgins's papers in my name?  You
should know that I ride him dressage so the chances that I'll need to prove
he's a quarter horse for competition are slim.  I think.

2.  If I do want to change, how do I deal with several transfers simultaneously?
Does the Registry deal with this situation often? (I know that one of the middle
men here was from a sale barn or something, where my instructor bought him.)

Any advice you have would be appreciated.

janet.

ps how much will it cost?  one transfer appears to be $10.

    Janet, I think that it would be best for you to change ownership to 
    reflect you as the current owner. In time if you ever decide to sell 
    him having three transfers to deal with for the new owners would be
    very cumbersome. AQHA also does not like to see this happening. If 
    you decide to give the QH world a try in showing you'll need to prove 
    ownership, your name must appear on his papers. Its not an expensive 
    thing to do and is a safeguard in the longrun.  As long as you have the
    original transfer paper filled out and signed by the original seller to 
    your instructor, then another filled out by your instructor to you,
    send it along with the $20. ($10 ea xfer). I wouldn't worry about
    having it rushed, that would be an additional $30.00. The AQHA office
    is very efficient and is usually fairly quick in sending them back 
    anyway. The only time I would use a rush is if you need your papers
    back immediately for a show or some other emergency.
    
    Marianne

Thanks Marianne--

you convinced me. but now i'm filling out the report and it says "buyers 
AQHA #".  YOu mean if i buy and register a QH I have to be a member?  should
i get a # first or send inthe reports and see what happens?

janet-who's-afraid-she'll-screw-it-up

    If you send them an extra $10, they'll sign you up as a member.
    Hmm... that fee might have gone up recently - I'll check.  If you
    just send in the forms with transfer fees but no membership #, they'll
    send you a bill for more money.

    As a former QH owner, I have done this before. The AQHA assigns
    you an ID# when they do the transfer. There is no extra charge.
    The ID number will follow your name on the papers and the return
    envelope. Just leave it blank on the form. If you buy another
    QH you would fill it in so they don't end up giving multiple numbers
    to one person.
    Sandy
    

    Sandy is correct, the id number is assigned automatically, no need
    to be a member. The fee went up to $10 from $7. 
    
    -M-
    

    From the AQHA fee schedule, June 1989:
    
    Membership:
    
    AQHA Annual Membership.......................... $10.00
    
    					Member	Non-member
    Transfer ...........................$10.00	  $20.00

    When we sent in a transfer, earlier this year, they sent a bill
    for another $10, then after we paid that, they sent the completed
    transfer form, plus a membership card.

    sorry, 'bout that. Didn't realize the price difference. That makes a
    bit of difference. Another reason to do the transfers immediately
    rather than letting them sit there for the next person...starts to get
    a bit pricy..
    
    Marianne
    

    I am a member so when I sold my horse I may not have realised the
    price difference. The other thing that is odd about this whole thing
    is that the seller is supposed to pay for the transfer, not the
    buyer. It may be worth it to go back the the offical owner (the
    one on the papers) and get a new transfer form to prevent confusion.
    I had a friend that got a QH and the horse had been thru 4 owners
    since the one on the papers, she was able to locate the offical
    owner to get the transfer filled out even though the guy had forgotten
    he had ever owned the horse two years previous.
    
    Sandy
    

	 When I  bought my QH in Nov '87, I bought him from a sale barn.
     It  was  the  second  sale  barn  he had been in.  They gave me the
     transfer  that  had  the ORIGINAL seller information on it.  What I
     did,  although  it  probably  wasn't  exactly kosher, was to simply
     fill  in  the  buyer  part  and  send it in with his papers and the
     appropriate monies.  I figured that he wasn't *really* sold until I
     bought  him,  so  why  bother  trying  to  track down all the other
     signatures.

	 If the  transfer  that has the original seller's name on it has
     the  buyer's  part empty, I would probably do the same thing again.
     Otherwise, I'd go the official route. 

    Hi Kathy, not necessarily wrong on your part. Most sale barns seem
    to do this. It cuts into their expenses when they have to transfer
    so many registered horses. For a sale barn to deal they don't need
    to prove any ownership to the breed registry, just have the original
    sellers signature on a transfer. The same method would apply for any
    auctions also.
    
    Marianne

this is getting much more complicated...

here's the exact situation.  i have 2 transfer reports.  the first one has
seller and buyer filled out (buyer was a sale barn). #2 has seller (sale barn)
only filled out.  beth never filled it out since she bought higgins to train and
sell.  soooo, i *have* to go through 2 unless i contact the original owner.  
would they be willing to do it do you think?  i mean, fill out another report
listing me as buyer?  maybe if i send him copies of everything to prove
that i really have higgins.  it sure would be cheaper that way.  otherwise
it looks like it will cost somewhere around $30-40.  

hmmmmmm...

janet.

Janet, 

	 Well, if  you're  lazy,  then just fill yourself in as buyer #2
     and  send  in  the 2 transfers.  $30-40 is nothing compared to what
     you  are  going  to  spend keeping this horse, right? If you have a
     blank  transfer, and don't mind spending the extra time and effort,
     then  try  to  contact the old (original) owners and see if they'll
     re-sign  a  transfer.   However, if the seller is not local to you,
     this will probably mean phone calls, postage, additional time, etc.
     Personally,  in  you shoes, I would send in the 2 transfers and the
     $'s.

Kathy

    HI!
    
    A few months ago, I purchased my first Thoroughbred, Louie (actually,
    his name is really Hope's Unicorn, but isnt that just really too
    silly a name for a noble steed?  Why, oh, why do the TB's get
    dubbed thussly?).  Anyway, I got the papers for him, but all
    the instructions on them said to do was to print my name on
    one side as current owner and have the past owner's signature
    on the other.
    
    When I got my quarter horse, I needed to send papers to 
    the quarter horse registry.  Isnt there some corresponding
    body for TB's?  If so does anyone know how I contact them?
    
    Perhaps, it doesnt really matter......
    
    Thanks,
    
    Jan
    

    Hi Jan, I know I had to do the same thing for Luke (my paint)
    when I got him.  I'd tend to think it would be the same for
    any blooded horse.  The registry would have to put you down
    somehow as the owner of record.  I not only had to sign Luke's
    papers, but I had some fancy form I had to fill out and have
    the old owners sign as well, send the whole mess in and wait
    6 - 8 weeks to get it back.
    
    \Caroline

    Looking at note 481.199, I'd say "no".

    I believe that starting this year Standardbreds must
    be registered with the USTA by June or July (as yearlings)
    or they can NEVER race.
    
    Hard to believe TB's don't require the same thing.

    
    
    The American Jockey Club does not require that changes of ownership be
    registered with them for any Thoroughbreds.  All that is required is
    the the new owner fill out the back and that the old owner gives the
    new owner a bill of sale.  This is slowly changing on a state by state
    basis as the different states get everything rolled over onto computer.
    
    (I believe they are using VAX's).  The Jockey Club also has a pedigree
    services that runs on VAX's.  You call the Jockey Club and pay them 
    several hundred dollars and they will give you a dial-up number and 
    password to directly access their pedigree data base.  A couple of
    years ageo it was (I think) $250.00 to sign up and so much per record
    accessed. 
    
    I have the info on this filed away somewhere if anyone wants it.
    
    Pat 

    I believe a tatoo on a t-bred's upper lip means that the horse has 
    been to the track.  I'm not sure if it necessarily means they raced...
    they may have been in training and found to be slow or something.  
    The purpose of tatooing race horses is to prevent someone from slipping
    in a "ringer."  If you had two horses that looked alike, but one was 
    very slow and the other very fast, you could race the slow one all 
    season, push the odds up against him/her, then slip in the ringer and 
    bet on him/her.                                               

    All racehorses are tatooed, and have to be tatooed before their first
    race.  The tatoo on the upper lip matches the number on their 
    registration papers.  There is a system, where the first letter 
    represents the year the foal was born.  Just because they have a
    tatoo doesn't necessarily mean they raced, like the previous reply
    stated, they could have just been in training and been injured or
    found to be too slow.  When you take your horse to the races, someone
    from the track checks and writes down all tatoos on all horses.

    re .-1
    
    Yes, it means they have been at a track.  It does not necessarily mean
    that they have raced.  (But it would be quite unusual if the horse had
    not raced, unless some injury prevented it.)  Also, it is an indicator
    of the horse's age, since the first letter ofthe tattoo corresponds to
    the year the horse was foaled, with A = 1970, b = 1971, etc.  (It's
    possible I'm a year off here.  I'd have to go home and look in some
    mouths to verify it.)
    
    -ellie

    Many horses, especially valuable ones, are tatooed (usually a number) 
    on the upper lip in case of theft. It is better to do it this way than 
    on the flank, as this can be tampered with. It also avoids the
    possibility of them ending up at the slaughter house, as tatoo
    descriptions of stolen horses are widely circulated. Perhaps this is
    not the case in other countries, but certainly so here in France.
    
    Patricia

    Since there hasn't been recent entries I would like to update the
    information on the pedigree researching services.
    
      Pedigree Associates is located in Lexington, KY 606 253-0472
        For $75. they will research a horse's pedigree from information
        provided by the Jockey Club.  It will be camera ready and in a plastic
        sleeve.  The information they need is tatoo number, year of birth,
        sex, and color.  This type of service is what is used for sales
        catalogues.
    
      Jockey Club Information Services at 800 333-1778 will provide the
        same information on a computer printout for $35.00.  You will get a
        5-generation pedigree and the horse's race record.  The information
        will be in the mail within two days along with a list of other
        services they provide.
    
    Is it worth it?  Yep!!! I was just given a gorgeous gelding with no 
    papers.  Everything I got on him was hearsay, "He was sold for $40K as a
    yearling, etc."  I called the Jockey Club Information Services and in
    less than a week found out that within five generations on his sire's
    side are:  Nasrullah, Hyperion, Princequillo and Sir Gallahad III.
    Not too shabby.  But, he was a dog as a racehorse, probaby why he is a
    gelding.  What I really wanted out of this search was his pedigree so
    that if I ever got another Thoroughbred I could look for a horse with his
    lineage as he has one of the kindest dispositions I've seen besides
    being great to look at.  

    Talk about trivia....this is really obscure stuff! But, I know some of
    it...
    
    >After each horse's name [snip] there is a 2 digit number. [snip] Does
    >birth year make sense to you all?
    
    Yes, that's what it is. Usually the info about the sire and dam is
    given in another piece of info detailing their race and breeding
    records.
    
    >Some horses have an '*' in front of their name, such as *Alibhai. 
    
    The * means that the horse was born outside the US and imported to the
    US.
    
    >Some horses have a '=' in front of their name, such as =Prince Bio. 
    
    I think that means that the horse was born outside the US and never
    bred in the US.
    
    >Some horses have letter(s) in front of their name enclosed in braces,
    >such as {C} Count Fleet or {B} =Grey Sovereign or {B,I} Bold Ruler. 
    >Any ideas?
    
    I'm guessing here but I suspect that those are Dosage categories of the
    sires. C would indicate Classic and B = Brilliant, I = Intermediate
    If any of these are on mares or young stallions with little progeny at 
    the races, my theory is right out the window.
    
    >Is Count Fleet out of a Man o' War breeding?  (Can't remember on this
    one).
    
    Nope. Count Fleet was by Reigh Count
    
    >(now to find Carl's discussions on Dosage :)
    481.503 - 481.510 is the main discussion...
    481.522 - 481.524 have a little follow-up
    
    John

    >Dosage index of 3.00 and Center of Distribution as +0.88 seems to lead
    >that she's a classic oriented horse [snip] she's had 5 races at 8
    >furlongs or further and didn't particularily shine [snip]
    >
    >What's it all really mean? 
    
    If you read 481.* on dosage, you can guess what I'm about to say...
    Dosage doesn't mean *anything* because:
    	1. It doesn't include the influence of all stallions
    	2. It's a statistical analysis of subjective judgements
    	3. Doesn't consider half the pedigree(i.e. the mares)
    
    
    Dosage is based on subjective judgement of a stallions progeny after
    he gets the specified number(100?) of horses to the track. This
    effectively eliminates most stallions from consideration for
    at least 9-11 years after he goes to stud because:
    		a. Most farms consider 40-60 mares per year a full book
    		b. Lots of stallions don't get a full book 
    		c. One year later, about half of the bred mares produce a 
                   live foal or 20-30 foals if the stallion had a full book
    		d. It's at least 2 years after foaling before a foal races 
    		e. Typically 60% of live foals ever race(i.e. 12 - 18 foals
    		   per year if the stallion had a full book)
    
    Example, Alydar wasn't "rated" by dosage folks until 1991 (i.e. about
    12 years after he went to stud) even though he was "overbooked" and
    bred to as many as 100 mares per year!