Conference noted::equitation

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Note 474.1                      ONE MORE NEW ONE!                         1 of 2
MARX::FOX "A momentary lapse of reason... PF"        21 lines  31-DEC-1987 12:16
                               -< 1 possibility >-
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    Hi Robin! I have a 5 year old who I bought when he was a completely
    green (barely halter-broke) 2 year old. He had been truned out in
    a pasture with 15-20 other horses all of his life. He never had
    lived inside and when I started riding him, he was obnoxiously
    herd-minded. I showed him a very little bit late in his 3 year old
    year, some as a 4 year old and am now eventing him and showing him
    dressage and he still sometimes hollers to other horses during warm-up
    and such but NEVER in the arena or on cross-country or any time
    when he knows its WORKTIME! 
    
    I guess that the approach I used was to change what I was working
    on when he would start the calling so that he would have to think
    a bit more about work. He also seems to be growing out of it some
    as he gets more secure with life in general.
    
    Remember, a 4 year old is still young even if they look "all grown
    up!"
    
    Good luck with your critter!
    
    Linda

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Note 474.2                      ONE MORE NEW ONE!                         2 of 2
MARX::FOX "A momentary lapse of reason... PF"         8 lines  31-DEC-1987 12:20
                   -< Turnout by their lonesome helps too! >-
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    Oops, I hate replying to my own reply but I forgot to mention one
    small thing; I found that turning my horse out by himself also helps
    because he has no one to bond with. I didn't start turning him out
    alone because of this (he likes to get out and take everyone with
    him) but it is a nice result!
    
    Linda
    

    THANX FOR THE ADVICE. I HAVE TRIED THAT AND HE WENT THRU THE FENCE
    TRYING TO GET BACK TO THE OTHER TWO. HE PACES BACK AND FORTH AT
    THE GATE FOR HOURS ON END. ONE TIME I WAS RIDING HIM IN THE ARENA,
    I LEFT THE OTHER HORSES IN THE BARN, AND HE GOT ALL WORKED UP ABOUT
    BEING ALONE HE STARTED HEADING FOR THE BARN, I MANAGED TO PULL HIM
    IN A CIRCLE BUT HE WAS TRYING TO BUCK AND REAR AND I FINALLY ENDED
    UP SLAMING HIM HEAD ON WITH THE BARN DOOR! HE JUST RAN RIGHT INTO
    IT!! I KEEP THINKING MAYBE I'M DOING SOMTHING WRONG BUT I DON'T
    KNOW. I HAVE A HARD TIME ON THE TRAILS WITH OTHER HORSES, HE WANTS
    TO BE RIGHT ON THEIR TAILS, SO I HAD THE PERSON IN FRONT OF ME CARRY
    A CROP AND CRACK HIM ONE WHEN HE GOT TO CLOSE, BUT HE STILL HAS
    NOT GOT THE IDEA. I'VE TRIED RIDING HIM WITH ONE HORSE LOOSE IN
    THE ARENA HE FEELS BETTER (NOT A BUNDLE OF TIGHT MUSCLES AND NERVES)
    BUT I CANNOT GET HIM TO KEEP HIS ATTENTION ON HIS WORK.
    
    WELL THANX AGIAN AND I'LL KEEP TRYING.
    ROBIN

    Hi,
    
    I have an 8yrd old qh gelding. He absolutely hates to go trail
    riding alone! At first I thought he was barn green, but I noticed
    that he was great when we went out with other horses. I had my
    trainer take him out for a ride because when I told her that my
    horse does 360's on a dime and does buckin' bronco, she said
    "no way, he's so docile and such an honest horse" HA!
    Well, she took him on a ride and he did his thing and she had 
    to crack him with the whip (gently of course) to make him listen.
    On the way back to the barn, my horse decided to run at a full
    gallop, on ice!!! And she had to run him into a side trail, he
    stoped because he realized this was not the way home.
    
    HELP! I hate to have to crack him one every time he does this
    because I want him to respect me not fear me, but I don't like
    the thought of getting seriously injured every time I go for 
    a ride by myself.
    
    tina
    

    It's hard to find a generic cure that will work on all horses -
    we can offer suggestions from the info you have given us (since
    we aren't able to ride the horse ourselves and see the problem
    firsthand).
    
    This is a response to .4, but may work for Robin as well.
    
    First of all, you have to feel secure/experienced enough to work 
    with this horse yourself, otherwise get a trainer involved.  What
    type of bit are you riding with?  Does your horse do this in the
    ring when he's alone, or just on the trails?
    
    I'd try putting a full-cheek snaffle bit in his mouth and practice
    riding him in a ring with it.  The cheek pieces will give you
    additional leverage when using a direct rein aid (I'm assuming you
    ride english).  When you pull the left rein, the metal cheekpiece
    on the right side of the horses mouth pushes against his mouth toward
    the left, thus helping turn his head to the left.  Your horse should
    also understand and respect your leg aids.
    
    Using these two 'tools', when your horse tries his 360 spin, (for
    example, to the left) you should immediately pull the right rein
    sharply, and urge or boot (depending on how responsive he is) him 
    forward with both legs.  If your horse knows any lateral movements
    or is responsive to leg aids, you can ask him to leg yield to the
    right for several steps to get his mind off his problem and get
    him listening to you.  (if the horse spins to the right, then do
    the opposite of what I've said).
    
    I would work at the walk for a while to try to keep him calm, and 
    ask for some halts, circles, different things to keep him listening
    to you.  If you can anticipate a buck, then pull his head up and
    ask him for a sideways movement or a circle (I might hesitate with
    the circle because you don't want him to go into a spin).  If he
    doesn't listen to a sharp aid from your legs, then a reminder from
    the bat may be in order.  A 'bat' versus a whip will make a loud
    noise and startle the horse, but it won't sting like a whip which
    may make him buck.                                        
    
    When heading back towards the barn try to keep him walking, I'd
    normally tell someone to turn the horse in smallish circles if he's
    jigging or trying to take off, but with your problem I don't think
    I'd try it.
    
    If he tries to take off when going back to the barn, halt him and
    turn him around and start walking away from the barn.  Halt again
    and calmly turn him back to the barn and proceed to walk.  You must
    be sure that he respects the bit you have in his mouth, otherwise
    it's not going to do you any good - you may have to try a hackamore
    on him.  Keep stopping him and walking him away from the barn if
    he continues to try and take off.  You may want to take him off
    the main trail and face him in front of a large tree and just let
    him relax - take a deep breath, etc., then try again.  You can't
    fight with him because it's only going to make him more nervous
    and more apt to make a dash for the barn.  
    
    I'll stop here because I know there are others that may offer
    suggestions.  If you try any of the above, let us  know what worked
    and what didn't.  
    
    Good Luck!
    
    You may want to bring a pocketful of sugar or carrot pieces to reward
    him with if he behaves.  I'd keep the sessions short at first. 
    Take him out for 15 min, and if he tries to misbehave but you are
    able to correct him, then reward him and bring him back to the 
    barn.  After a couple of times like this, stay a little longer and
    try to get through maybe two sessions of misbehaving, then bring
    him back.  It will probably take a while, but you need to insist
    that he listen to you otherwise he won't be very reliable.

I THINK I'M GOING TO TRY THE FULL SNAFFLE. I RIDE WITH A WESTERN SADDLE
    BUT HAVE BEEN USING A D RING SNAFFLE ON HIM. I'VE ALSO HAD HIM ON
    A BITTING RIG WHEN I LOUNG HIM ,BUT MAINLY FOR SETTING HIS HEAD,
    THE SIDE REINS HELP KEEP HIM FROM TRYING TO PULL AWAY WHEN HE MAKES
    HIS CIRCLES WIDE. THE LAST THING I USED ON HIM WAS A SNAFFLE WITH
    DRAW RIENS. THIS HELPED ME BEND HIM AND BE MORE RESPONSIVE TO MY
    LEGS BUT WHEN HE PITCHES A FIT I DON'T HAVE MUCH TO STOP HIM WITH.
    I DON'T WANT TO GIVE HIM A HARD MOUTH SO I HAVE BEEN USING THESE
    MILD BITS BUT MAYBE I AM BEING TO EASY WITH HIM? I ALSO HAVE A DONEL.
    IT IS LIKE A BOSEL BUT IT IS MADE OF ALUMINUM TUBING WITH A SHEEPSKIN
    COVER OVER THE NOSE INSTEAD OF WHERE THE RAWHIDE WOULD BE. THIS
    IS WHAT I USE FOR HORSES THAT GIVE ME A HARD TIME ON THE LOUNG LINE
    (PULLING AWAY OR LEARNING WHOA). BUBBA GETS BORD REALL FAST IN THE
    RING AND TRYS TO ANTICIPATE EVERYTHING, EVEN THOUGH WE ONLY DO A
    HALF HOUR IN THE RING. I TRY TO DO THE SAME THINGS BECAUSE SOMEONE
    TOLD ME HE NEEDS MORE CONFIDENCE IN HIMSELF. I BREAK UP HIS WORK
    WE DO BIG FIGURE 8'S AT THE WALK AND TROT (I DON'T CANTER HIM YET
    JUST ON THE LOUNG LINE). WE GO OVER A SMALL CROSS JUMP, BACK THRU
    THE L, TURN AROUND IN A 6 FOOT BOX, OVER LOGS ECT...
    
    I TAKE HIM OUT FOR WALKS ALONE BY HAND BECAUSE IF I TRY TO RIDE
    HIM AWAY FROM OTHERS HE GOES MAD EVEN IF I GIVE HIM A FEW CRACK
    OF THE WIP (HE GETS WORSE SO THATS OUT), HE HOLLERS AND DANCES.
    I TALK TO HIM PET HIM TRY TO RELAX HIM BUT ITS LIKE I'M NOT EVEN
    THERE. HIS EYES ARE WIDE AND HE IS NOT HAPPY UNTIL HE'S WITH THE
    OTHER ONES AGIAN.
    
    WHEN WE ARE DONE WITH OUR RING WORK I USUALLY TAKE HIM TO THE FAR
    END OF THE RING, GET OFF, LOOSEN HIS GIRTH AND HAND WALK HIM BACK
    TO THE BARN. AND HE'S FINE. I HAVE HAD HIM SINCE MARCH AND HAVE
    SEEN LITTLE PROGRESS. I HAVE MADE PROGRESS WITH HIS RESPONSES TO
    LEGS, LEADS, VOICE COMANDS, BUT I HAVE ALWAYS HAD SOMEONE RIDING
    WITH ME IN THE RING. I JUST CAN'T GET HIM TO STAY CALM WHEN HE IS
    ALONE. I DON'T HOW LONG THIS IS GOING TO TAKE BUT I WILL TRY THE
    FULL CHEEK BIT AND THE BAT AND SEE HOW IT GOES. 
    
    THANX FOR THE HELP SO FAR AND I WILL KEEP YOU POSTED!!
    ROBIN
    

    The previous note prompted a question I have been meaning to ask 
    about herd bound horses.  Since childhood I have owned 4 mares
    and 3 geldings.  The mares never acted herd-bound and never got
    excited when thier buddies left or meeting up with other 
    horses on the trail.  Two of the three geldings were attached
    to their buddies and would act like morons if we met other horses
    on the trail and would carry on in their stall or paddock if the
    companion was taken out/away.
     
    I know when the mare next door is taken out to be ridden - her
    companion gelding screams and charges the fence the entire time
    she is gone.  When the gelding goes out, the mare just grazes
    and doesn't seem to care.
    
    Is this tendency prevalent in more geldings than mares?  Or is
    it the individual personality?
    
    - Janice
    
    re: topic -1 ... good luck with your horse - maybe "borrowing" an
    old arthritic companion horse to be with Ben might work out and
    keep him from running around too much.

    I'd have to agree with your observations. I have  a mare and a gelding,
    both kept at home but turned out in seperate paddocks because the mare
    is a real witch towards the gelding. I'd like to turn them out
    together, but it isn't worth having him get beat on over. She's fine
    with him as long as he doesn't intrude into her "space". She'll ride
    with him perfectly agreeably. She couldn't care less when he leaves,
    and just as willingly goes out alone as with him. HE on the other hand,
    jogs the fenceline and hollers the minute she goes out of his sight.
    It's honestly pretty obnoxious. He WILL go out alone, but not happily,
    and with occasional attempts to turn and head for home. A tap with
    the crop or a nudge with the spurs are sometimes needed, too.
    
    My neighbors also have one mare and one gelding. Until last month,
    the gelding was a stallion. Like my own horses, their mare is
    pretty unconcerned with what he does while he gets crazy when she
    so much as is led out of the barn into the paddock. He's much worse
    than my own gelding, but I assume that's from being a stallion
    until age 5. These 2 ARE turned out together in a very small paddock
    (these people aren't the brightest horse owners to come down the pike)
    and the gelding picks at the mare until she gets aggitated and kicks
    the stuffin' outta him. From what I can see, the mare would be more
    than happy to see him leave! :-)
    

    Hi,
    
    Well, there's always one that differs from the crowd.  My mare is a
    baby if left alone, she runs and hollers for company.  Actually, she
    cannot be out alone or she'll jump out to either be with other horses
    she sees, take a small 'trail ride' around the property, or run back
    to the barn.
    
    She tried to jump out of a paddock with a pretty high fence once, she
    broke the fence, but her resolve wasn't broken.  She just ran around
    whinnying till she was brought in.  We've tried to 'wean' her, but
    nothing seems to work except a horse buddy, (human company isn't 
    acceptable either!).  She's fine on trails though, she'll go out
    alone and be very good, but I think she'd prefer the company of 
    another horse if she had her druthers. 
    
    She's not the only mare in our barn that acts this way, there is 
    another that does the same running and hollering, only she won't 
    attempt jumping out...yet!
    
    And WAIT! The owners of the barn have a 3 year old filly that will
    run around screaming if left alone, could be her age though, she's
    always been out with other horses since she was a baby.
    
    As for the geldings, they are perfectly happy to be out alone or with
    company.  I think it all depends on the individual horse...they all
    have their own personalities.
    
    
    My two on the independent Mare theory!
    
    Deb ;)

    My last mare was terrible and had tantrums at getting separated (even
    though she was a witch to her stablemates).  When she was kept with 
    other horses she was impossible to work with. When she was kept 
    alone on a regular basis she was wonderful and a whole different horse.
    
    Sharon

    My humble opinion is that it's mostly individual. We have had 4 mares,
    each of them is different. Some enjoy company, but just so they have
    somebody to boss around! Others are definitely herd dependent and act
    up whenever their pals are out of sight. 
    
    One place we lived, there was a lone mare next door. She was so lonely
    that she considered our lot to be her "herd" even though she couldn't even
    see them! She would run the fenceline and call to ours which were out
    of sight over a hill from her paddock. She would act frantic until one
    of ours would take pity and answer her. Then, she was alright for a
    while.
    
    I have known geldings that were happy on their own but many are not.

    My new gelding is herdbound.  He has a fit if I take my
    other gelding out without him....charges the stall door,
    whinnies, runs around the stall.  I fixed this by tying
    him to a post while I ride in the ring.  He settles down
    some if he can see the other horse.  He settles down even
    more if I tack him up.  Thinks he's going to be ridden,
    so he stands waiting for his rider! (-8 However, when I leave
    him behind when I'm off to a show, he walks the fence until
    his buddy comes home.  (The neighbors let me know about this,
    as he also cries the whole time.....sigh)
    
    Lynne

    Ben, of the broken coffin bone, is equally as bad! Last year, we took
    the mares out for a trail ride for an hour or so. When we got back, Ben
    had worked himself into a frenzied sweat walking his stall!
    
    A couple months later, we took the mares out and left him alone again.
    We didn't get far when we heard thundering hoofbeats! We thought he had
    kicked his stall door apart to escape.
    
    Wrong! He jumped out over the bottom half of the Dutch-style doors!
    (The top half was open) But, the bottom half is 4 feet high and he
    jumped it from a standstill and through the top half. That's about a 
    36" high by 45" wide opening four feet off the ground! If only he
    showed that kind of courage under saddle, I'd have evented him!
    
    Needless to say, we don't leave him alone anymore. It's too bloody
    dangerous!

    Hi,
    
    Have any of you had to deal with the problem of your horse being
    'herd' bound?  My guy is really giving me trouble with this.
    
    In the past, I've always had him at a pretty large barn.  Horses
    would come and go for turnout and other things.  While he was
    never alone in the barn, he did have a pature mate.  He just
    wasn't stabled next to him.  If he had to be seperated for
    turnout (once when he had stifles problems) he'd fuss by
    screaming for his friends and run around a bit, but he
    was basically ok.
    
    Now, I've got him in a small barn with only 7 horses.  He's
    developed a real attraction to a little paint mare.  If I
    bring him in and seperate him from the crowd, I have to bring
    another horse into the barn with him.  This all came to a
    head over the weekend when he sprang his shoe and stepped
    on a toe clip.  He wasn't supposed to be turned out for a 
    week.  He took it on Monday fairly well, but on Tuesday,
    he went ballistic.  He tried to crawl through the window
    in his stall.  He reared and bucked so bad in the stall
    that he finally had to be turned out to keep him from
    killing himself (at least thats the option the barn
    owner took.  I'm not sure if there were other options).  There
    was one other horse in the barn with him, but he didn't
    care.  He wanted to be out with the herd.  
    
    Now he's dead lame and can barely walk on the foot that
    he punctured.  The farrier fixed him up with a knee high
    galoshey to keep the wound clean, but I can't imagine this
    will stay on his foot if he gets really active.  I'd really
    prefer he not be able to run around, but if he does that
    much damage in the stall, I don't know what else to do.
    
    Is there a way to condition him out of this type of behaviour?
    Is my only option to move to another barn?  I'm worried that
    if I did move, he'd repeat this and they wouldn't want to
    deal with it.  I'd rather break him of it here, than try
    to deal with it *and* a move.  
    
    He is usually such a quiet guy, this really surprises me.  I knew
    he was having trouble being seperated, but I thought he could
    deal with it with a friend to keep him company.  
    
    Sheesh!
    
    Jan
    

    
    I have run into this kind of behavior weaning babies.  And with 
    a couple adults (and one fairly recently).  
    
    One option is, if you have a stall that is totally enclosed (bars or
    some barrier to the ceiling and no open windows) AND if you and the
    barn owner have the nerves, is to leave him in his stall until he 
    quiets down.  Chances are he'll finally get tired of bucking and
    rearing after 48 hours or so.  (I know its really hard to see them 
    throwing a fit like this and ignoring it while the stall is coming 
    down piece by piece  ;-} ).
    
    Part of his anxiety this time may be a function of him having been 
    fairly fit and he just couldn't stand being in any more.  In which 
    case, hand walking by himself could take care of his exuberance.
    
    And then he might not quiet down and you might have to give up and
    turn him out.  (My 3 gaited horse pulled a suspensory ligament and was
    supposed to be on stall rest for 3 months.  Hah!  He threw a fit for
    a week so I finally just turned him out because he was less active out
    than being stalled.  It took longer for him to heal but at least he 
    healed.)

Well, the barn owner turned him out with the galoshey boot.  He
was quiet (for the most part) in the turnout area and didn't make
himself any lamer and we were able to keep most of the dirt out
of the wound.

The barn owner wouldn't think of keeping him in the stall with him
being that ballistic.  She was just as worried about the stall
coming down as she was about him hurting himself.  So just leaving
him in the stall isn't an option in this particular barn.  

Do you think that he'll behave differently at another barn?  I'm just
concerned that if he acts this way here that he'll have such bad
manners when he goes to another barn that they won't want him.  I'd
rather deal with this quickly, if it can be rectified.

Should I just start him out slowly, like having him be one of the
last horses turned out and then gradually increase the time?  Someone
here suggested tieing him in his stall, but that sounded like it wouldn't
work for him if he's going to be so adamant about getting out.  I
was afraid it would just hurt him more.

Thanks!

Jan

    Something that might help, just incase he decides to get the boot off.
    After cleaning the puncture put a small piece of cotton on it and duct
    tape it on. Keep the duct tape low, off the coronary band and put 2 or
    3 layers across the bottom for wear.  I used this on my mare during a
    real muddy season for a puncture and it worked great (the duct tape
    really sticks well to the hoof, even when I put it on when the hoof was
    still damp.
     Sharon

    If you are planning on moving to another barn, see if you can
    find a place that does individual turnout.  That way, he might
    not "bond" to any particular horse or herd, and you won't have
    the herd bound problem.
    
    Also, see if you can do individual turnout where you are now,
    to try to lessen his herd bound behavior now.....

HI!

Thanks for all the suggestions.

I was already packing the wound with furazone, placing a gauze pad over
it and wrapping it with vetwrap and then duct tape.  But I was wondering,
why do you avoid the coronary band?  I went up about that high, but I
didn't wrap it tight up there, just enough to stick to the hair.  The
bandage was replaced twice daily and he got soaked with epsom salts
once a day for about 30 minutes.  

As for having the barn owner turn him out by himself for a while, I imagine
its out of the question.  Its a small barn and he'd just drive her
crazy whining for the other horses.  Also, its near a busy two lane
road (lots of curves), so if he broke out of the fencing, it would be
very dangerous.  I will ask, though.

Its funny, I can take him on a trail ride with only one other horse and
he's just fine.  We go for long rides, too.  He hasn't had a problem 
yet.  All this seems to revolve around the barn.  

I guess what I'm looking for is some assurance that he can be broken
of this behaviour........

Jan

	I was wondering if anyone out there has had trouble w/
	there horse being to attached to other horses?  Any horse.
	Not just here stable mate.?

	For a year now, I have been trying to get my horse to leave
	the farm on his own.  Every time I attempt this fact we
	have a major fight and I always loose.

	When I need to get somewhere by my self (like a lesson)
	I have to lead my horse about 1/2 mile then I can get on	
	and proceed w/out to much of a fuss (but I still get one)
	
	Once I get to the lesson (i take them w/ 1 other person)
	My horse attached himself to that horse and he fight me
	if I wont let me follow the other horse.

	My instructor has us working in different directions from
	the other lesson person.  She hopes this will help him
	understand he must listen to me when I'm riding.

	Out on a trail w/ his stablemate (or any other horse) he
	WILL NOT go first!  If I try to urge him forward he has
	a total mental fit and backs up and rears and twist and
	just has a fit.
	
	To fake him out, I get trotting or cantering w/ the other
	horse and my other rider will slow their pace so I can
	keep going forward and get ahead.. as soon my horse realizes
	this, he stops dead in his tracks and spins around to see
	where the other horse has gone.

	But, if I keep him behind we have the best ride and allot of
	fun...that is unless the other horse gets to far ahead of us
	then I get the same fit.

	Is there any help?  Or should I just let him win and ride
	behind?

	I've called Paul Hebert (the horse trailer) and Paul does not	
	want to come out or take my horse for training.  He came a few
	times to try and get him to go on the trailer and my horse
	won that fight to.. so Paul has given up on him.

	He may sound like a terrible horse, but he's not!  He is
	very loving and smart and sweet.  He just has his bratty
	moments.

	Louisa

    Wow, sounds like a bad scene, and the more he wins the more positive he
    is next time.  I had a horse like that once, it didn't matter who she
    was with at the time.  Stabling her at my house alone was my answer. 
    She was wonderful by herself and trusted me and listened well all the
    time.  But, put her with another horse for more than a few hours and
    she would revert back to her old ways.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Sharon

     
    The "separation fits" are dangerous for you and any
    other horses & riders involved.  You could be badly injured
    during one of these "temper tantrums".....
    
    As long as he keeps winning these "separation fits", I think
    they will just get worse.  What "punishment" does he get for
    acting up?  I'd put him in a round pen as soon as he started
    one of these fits, and run him until his attention is focused
    exclusively on me.  You know his attention is on you when he
    looks at you, begging to stop. EVERY time he pulled this stunt, 
    he would get the same treatment.  Of course, any small enclosed area
    will work, such as a riding ring or small pasture.  Make sure the
    footing is safe to do so....
    
    If you can find someone who specializes with problem horses,
    or maybe just someone who is an excellent rider and can ride
    through his fit so that he doesn't win, that would be a start 
    in the right direction, too.
    
    
    
    
    

    How old is he, Louisa?  It could be that he's very insecure, in which
    case fighting will only make it worse, since he'll won't learn to trust
    you.  As long as leading him 1/2 mile and then mounting works, I'd
    stick with that, and also having your teacher help in the lessons.  It
    will take much longer this way, but will be safer for you and him than
    direct confrontation.  If its insecurity, he'll outgrow it in time.  
    
    If he's being a brat, then direct confrontation may reward him (with 
    excitement).  I've made the most progress with Algiers (king of brats)
    on things I ignored or worked around than *anything* I confronted --
    although, again, it took time.
     
    Thank goodness I ignored as much advice ("I wouldn't let him get away
    with that if he was *my* horse!") as I did -- wish I'd plugged my ears 
    up even tighter!!!!!
    
    mary

    
    
    Thanks for the responses.
    
    I had him stabled alone for 4 months and he was worse.  He was
    a combination of depressed and mad.  Once he got a friend he
    was back to normal again.
    
    He is 8yrs old.
    
    Paul Hebert is very good w/ horse and a good rider.  He wont get back
    on him, he said, he didn't need to get hurt, and I'd rather not
    put anyone elese on him who might get hurt also.
    
    I was wondering if he'll grow out of it, If I keep up what I've
    been doing?
    
    Paul, told me, my horse might have been weened to early and this
    is why is he actling like this.
    
    Louisa

    Questions to consider are how long you have had him, how much he's been
    moved around, was he abused at all in the past -- or was he allowed to
    walk all over previous owners.  Clues that will fill you in on the root 
    cause.
    
    If Paul thinks its due to too early weaning, that sounds like he's
    diagnosing it as insecurity, rather than brattiness.
    
    If you conclude it is brattiness, than there is a point where
    confrontation may help, but its best at first to just try working
    around it for some time to be sure.  You can always confront a problem
    after trying workarounds and time, but once you've started a
    confrontation, you can't go back in time.
    
    mary
    
    

    I have a horse with a bit of this problem. He gets insecure and bolts
    for the barn. How I am dealing with it: Ground work, demand his
    attention in situations where you can keep the upper hand. I lead him
    into a big field away from the barn with a gate closed between us and
    "home" and lunge him with a great number of up/down transitions. I
    first taught him the voice commands in the indoor with all the doors
    closed to give him focus. You have to establish yourself as a herd
    buddy of higher ranking. Do not try to ride him alone until you can be
    sure of safety. When riding in a group, use wide paths and ride beside
    the leader. Ask him to move slightly ahead to lead a little bit at a
    time, let him drop back if he gets nervous. Bravery can be taught a bit
    at time once he trusts you. This is the second "scaredy cat" 
    I have worked with, the first was eight like your and it took a good
    year of consistent work for her to take the lead and then go it alone.
    She had to be led a full mile on our first solo trips, and even then I
    dismounted and led her a lot. The other point, I did not let her drag
    along when I led her, I insisted that she trot so it was more work to
    be led than to walk willingly. I would come back exhausted, but the
    horse was not allowed to win a fight. It has been five years since then
    and she now loves to go out with anyone who wants to ride her.
    

    I like the advise in the last note, it certainly sounds safer than a
    mounted confrontation. Is the only time you attempt to take him out
    alone when you ride to your lessons? Could he be associating leaving
    the barn with going somewhere else to work? My horse had/has this
    problem to some degree (but he's never been uncontrollable), I found
    it easiest to overcome by making it so he'd associate going out alone
    with a pleasant reward.....my horses are not kept on grass pasture, so
    grass is a big treat to them, so I'd lead/ride him to a nice grassy 
    area and let him graze. Wasn't long before he went along quite happily
    in anticipation of eating once he got there. :-) This method also
    worked with trailering, too.....I frequently loaded him onto the trailer
    at home just to get a few handfuls of sweet feed, then back into the
    paddock with his buddy again. I have to keep at it, I do it about twice
    a month whether we actually go anywhere or not, but you should see how
    easily he loads now! :-) My mare is just the opposite...put a saddle on
    her and she off for the trails before your can even settle yourself on
    her back, she just wants to avoid ringwork and loves trail rides, and
    will load herself if you toss the leadline over her neck and say "Git
    in now".  Good luck, let us know your progress!
    

    
    Thanks for the notes.  I will keep being patient and give him lots
    of love and understanding.  I to like the reply in .26
    
    I'll keep you posted on how we do.
    
    Louisa

I wish the person in .26 would come do that for my horse!  He's not
uncontrollable, but boy is he insecure!  He just whines and whines for
his buddies if he's out of sight of them.  If another horse is with us
he's fine, but if I lead, he gets a bit spooky.  We have this game
of him seeing a spook on the trail, stopping and then proceeding to
backup at light speed.  I finally figured out that if I keep backing
him, he gets tired of it.  I also, found that if I could get him
turned around, I can usually back him past the obstacle.

My biggest problem is (or should I say *one* of my biggest problems is) that
I don't think he trusts me.  I have a hard time reading it and I'm at
a loss as to how to get him to trust me.  I have a pretty good faith
level in him, but he does have his moments.  Plus, I'm not the most
experienced rider in the world.  Sometimes when he spooks, he gets a 
jab in the face because he's thrown me off balance.  I know this aggrevates
the situation, but how do you make up for something like that?

So how do you deal with the fact that you're still learning how to
be an effective rider and getting your horse to trust that you won't
take them into anything painful or dangerous?

Jan

    Backing at warp speed is a tough one! It relates to them knowing it was
    safe behind them so if they aren't allowed to turn and run, they just
    go backwards. I have had some success with turning in complete circles
    trying to hold them on the spot. If you can spin them thru their inital
    fear and get them to freeze and just look at the "spooky thing" it may
    help. I let a young horse sniff and "kill" things with their front feet
    while I scritch their neck just in front of the saddle like a pasture
    buddy would do. As far as how to stay on during a spook, I admit that
    three years of dressage lessons has given me a much more secure seat. I
    also use a dressage or western saddle for training. My western saddle
    is one of the newer equitation models that allows you to sit in a
    balanced position same as dressage but with a nice handle in front!
    When I trail ride and he starts the backing game my companions keep
    going and leave him behind. As soon as he realises they didn't stop he
    quits fighting me and catches up with them.
    Sandy
    

Hi!

Thats a good idea about spinning.  I'll try that next time.  

As for the companions on the trail, the ones that I ride with usually
do just what Louie does if he's going first.  The barn that I'm at
right now is very small and I ride more than anyone else there.  Most
of the boarders show up once a month and pay the board.  These horses
*might* get ridden once a month, mostly they'll go about 2 or 3 times
in a week and then you won't see them again for 6 weeks.  This
confuses Louie mightily.  He sees all the horses around him essentially
retired and then he has to go out and work.

When we trail ride all of them are understandably concerned with getting
back to the barn.  I make Louie go in front alot to show him that he
can do it.  For the most part this is willing, but if the trail changes
in any way (we had some snow this spring and it downed alot of pine trees)
he has to see it several times before he'll go past without a fight.  Once
he refuses, the others start backing up too.  He's about the bravest
one in the barn.  There is another thats better about it, but again, we
don't ride with them all that often.

Last time we had to get past a tree that was down with the stump exposed.  He
started backing and the horse behind him started too.  I got the other lady
to stop her horse and place her across the trail so that Louie couldn't
get past her.  We then played the one step forward, 80 steps back routine
for about 5 minutes.  Then I got him turned around and he backed almost
past the stump.  When he could see the stump, he spinned so that he was
facing it.  I managed to stay on, but my life passed before my eyes.  I
ride trail with a side pull, for just such occasions as this, but I know
that I really whacked his nose when he spun around.  By this time, I was
a little frustrated, and we'd again backed away from the stump.  I really
dug in and got him to trot and that got him past it.  

After that I felt pretty good, pats all around.  Then  we went a little
further and out of the clear blue sky he spooks, splays his feet, dips
a shoulder and I rolled off.  Again, I got him good in the nose on the
fall and when I landed.  He wasn't being mean (at least it seemed that
way to me) he was just scared.  After that, I made him walk a bit further
on the trail, behind the other horse.  We turned around and headed for
home after I got a calm walk out of him (about another 10 minutes).  The
rest of the way home, he was behind the other horse and very good.

I know that part of this is that he's not in the most secure crowd, with
the other horses not getting out all that much, but I also feel that part
of it is that he doesn't really trust me.  I don't mean to hurt him when
I fall off, and I am working on my position.  A western saddle is a good
idea, but he's a high withered thoroughbred and I'm having trouble finding
a saddle thats a) accomodating to his conformation and b) lighter weight.
If you have any suggestions in this regard, they'd be welcome.  I'm riding
in a close contact jumping saddle right now and it affords little security.

Also, if he's with a confident horse, he's a real doll on the trail.  He
kind of takes his queue from the other horses.  He isn't consistently
good when leading, no matter who is with us, but I don't really expect
him to be good at that at this point (he's only been trail riding since
we moved to Atlanta about a year and a half ago).  I also don't expect
him to stop spooking entirely.  I'd just like him to be able to feel
comfortable on the trail with horses that aren't so wild about the ride.
I'd also like to stop this backing thing.  He's not remarkably careful
about where he backs.  I don't want to wind up with him breaking a leg
over a pine cone in the middle of the trail.

Thanks,

jan

ps.  I've tried all sorts of leg aids to keep him at least standing still.
Whips, spurs, nothing works.  Even my trainer has trouble with this and
once had to walk him past an obstacle because of the terrain (he was
backing into a deep ditch).

    Aha, a thoroughbred!
    
    First, with most thoroughbreds, the more upset you get, the more upset
    they get.  Hitting, yelling, spurring are absolutely the wrong things
    to do.  They are sensitive horses, but they will take their cues from
    you as they learn to trust you.  The quieter and steadier you are, the
    quieter and steadier they become in response.  If he gets upset at
    something, talk to him quietly and stroke his neck.  But to be that
    steady and quiet, you must have a good, deep seat.
    
    If you're losing your seat or falling off that easily, sounds like the
    first thing you need to to is develop a better seat so you can stay
    with him whatever he does.  I initially had this problem with Algiers
    -- I hadn't ridden for years and my seat was completely gone.  I didn't
    try long trails until I was confident I could stay with his spins (they
    are lightening quick!), etc.
    
    In the meantime, as much as possible, only go out trail riding with 
    horses that you know will behave.  
    
    Mary

I couldn't help but laugh at the reference to lightening spins!  And to
think that I thought that Louie had found a new trick!  

I do try to be steady and quiet and the only time that I really get
scared and upset is when he starts to really fight me.  You are correct
that I don't have the seat to deal with some of this, but I'm also convinced
that Jesus Christ probably couldn't sit some of it either.  

If I wait for the only quiet, confident horse in the barn, we'll never
trail ride.  I can keep them short, though.  And I can do things like
ride with a stirrup leather around his neck until I can get a more
secure saddle so that hopefully I'll stop whacking his face during these
episodes.  Also, I might shorten the time he spends in the front until
some of this subsides. 

Another thing is that I currently don't do anything other than a walk
on the trail.  I figured that if I couldn't sit a spook while walking,
I probably would die if he spooked while trotting.  

Thanks!

Jan

    Its sounds like the usual catch-22 -- just when you have most reason to
    be scared and upset is precisely the time when you need most not to be
    scared and upset.  Ha!  The best thing I can say when my guy starts up
    is that he's so quick, I don't have time to get scared, upset, react or
    even hang on.  A millisecond later, when its all over, I either hung on
    or didn't.  And a couple seconds later, while I'm catching my breath,
    my stomach finds its way back into the proper stomach cubicle and then
    I get scared and upset.  Except lately -- now that I've survived a few
    episodes, I laugh (shakily) ha!ha!
    
    Going faster than a walk can actually have its benefits -- at a brisk
    trot, they're too busy thinking forward to get into trouble.  If
    they're going forward, they can't go backwards or rear, without first
    slamming on the brakes (which buys you time).  If they slam on the
    brakes, unless they duck down, you can crash into their neck and bounce
    back into the saddle.  And it works some of the excess energy and
    spooks out of their system.
    
    If your horse is just being a brat, then going faster may be just what
    he needs.
    
    mary

    I can certainly relate to the flaky companion problem. TC was just
    starting to get the hang of this trail riding stuff last fall, with the
    help of a 12 yr and 24 yr Quarter horses. Two months ago the moved to
    another barn and the only suitable companions are all most NEVER
    ridden! I am forced to use the fields around the barn and the indoor
    and outdoor rings for safetys sake. There are two TB that ride trails
    but my guy amplifies whatever they react to. I can only hope that I can
    get him to solo trails without help. The barn owner does not like me to
    ride alone ever since she found me in the back field last June out
    cold! TC decided school was over and I had forgotten to close the gate
    to the barn. He did the proverbial "came back alone". I have since
    promised if I ever buy another horse it will be at least TEN years old,
    I am getting too old to take the falls. Meanwhile my brat will be six
    in May and I hope with age comes sanity. He is such a love on the
    ground I can't imagine giving up on him.
    Sandy
    

    From this Note and its replies it appears that a number of noters may
    be "overmounted". I have not seen either the horses or the riders in
    the previous replies so please don't take this as personal criticism,
    just a general warning. 
    
    Not every horse is suitable for every rider. At some point in many
    rider's career comes the realization that their "dear sweet horse" is
    capable of causing their rider grievous bodily harm. If you are lucky,
    it happens before a serious accident happens, and you find yourself a
    more suitable mount. An overmounted rider is an accident waiting to
    happen. 
    
    In my past I have successful schooled a couple of horses out of being
    herd or barn bound and learned what bratty horses are capable of doing.
    Flipping over backwards being the most extreme avoidance action. Later
    I had a "cold-backed" horse that neither I nor anyone else could find
    away of dissuading from bucking when first mounted. On my fourth
    intimate encounter with the ground I called it quits with this horse. I
    then bough the gentleman's field hunter that I have had for the last
    fifteen years.
    
    Your "dear sweet horse" is capable of killing you under extreme
    conditions. There are plenty of good horses without these problems out
    there. It may be a wise move to go and find one of them. 

    My perspective on this and a little bit of rambling about it.
    
    Also, another blunt warning, I know you love your horse, I've had 5 and
    kept two until they died.  One I was overmounted on.  Overmounting can
    and often does go along with domination and your horse has you
    throughly dominated - you can't do what you want.  I sold him to
    someone bigger and tougher than me and they got along perfectly.  The
    horse *respected* them and they loved and *respected* the horse too.  They
    kept him till he died. They didn't abuse him either, they built a
    working partnership with each other that I was just unable to do.  But 
    there are other horses out there that I and you could build a good
    partnership/companion base with.
     
    Any horse that left
    me out cold (are you wearing a riding helmet as sissy as some people
    might say it is) would have had its last ride with me.  Being a brat
    isn't cute - I've had major surgery from a "bratty" horse, thinking they
    needed more of my love and patient when what the needed was the strong
    hand of discipline that I'm not capabable or knowledgable enough of 
    applying.
    
    I'm an upper intermediate to lower advanced rider - I think one of the
    big problems with people identifying riding skills is that it tends to
    be identified with training skills.  My first *good* horse was a 3 year
    old that I got in 1969 when I was 11 and he just died two years ago. 
    He was the ideal trail and 4-H horse.  He couldn't canter well (My
    riding instructor and I had to teach him his leads), he had hoofs as
    big as soup plates while the farrier worked on his feet to get them
    down to a more reasonable size - but the reason this horse worked was
    *that he was throughly broke*  He had no bad habits and came with a
    guarntee that if I couldn't handle him, the owner would take him back. 
    But, the point is, there was no heavy training involved - polish yes
    and that was fun, and learning for me and him but I never worried about
    runaways or bucking.  I think you might be happier with a horse you
    could have fun with and work with, but not train.  
    
    I'm an excellent rider but I'm not an excellent trainer or even a good
    trainer.  There was an article about in either New England Equine or
    The Yankee Pedlar a few months ago.  A real trainer was looking for a
    horse for a good rider they had.  The found lots of horses for
    "intermediate to advanced riders."  These were not horse with
    intermediate to advanced skills, they were horses with significant
    training and/or behavioral problems.  People often confuse riding
    ability with training ability - i.e., if you're a good rider you can
    handle this problem xyz with this horse - only if the problem is in
    finishing not problem horses, and as hard as this may be to take, you
    have a problem horse.
    
    Someone back aways suggest a round pen.  If you can get hold of the
    book "There are no problem horses, only problem riders" by Mary
    Twelveponies, she explains the use of the round pen and why it must be
    a solid fence and high.  However, she also points out that unless you
    have the skill and ability to follow through on some of this, don't do
    it at home kids.

    
    I don't know about the other rider in here that is haveing trouble, so 
    I wont speak for her/him.  But My hourse is not what I would classify as
    a "problem" horse.  He just has bratty moments that I don't like.
    He has a hearding problem.  I know I am not over mounted he is
    perfect for me and I love him more then anything.. If I could fix
    one thing w/him, it would be he's hearding problem...but if my horse
    has to have 1 problem and only 1 probelm.. then I can live w. it.
    
    I found this topic very helpful and I know that I am not alone w/
    a hearding horse.  When you 1st have a problem you think your alone
    so Thank you for all those who shared there stories with me.. I feel
    much better now.
    
    We went out the last few days..and I didn't fight him to go 1st.  All
    I did was nicely try to urge him forward and I stayed calm and he
    did real well!  We went 1st for about 2mi before he started to get
    abit spooky... I stoped and told him he was a good boy and gave him
    a bit pat... I let him go behind for awhile.. then I urge him in
    fround agin (still being calm) and we did another 2mi in frount...
    and he was less spooky this time
    
    Before I would just get mad and I would make the situation worse..but
    now I know I'm not alone w/ a heading horse.. I am mentaly doing
    better w. it
    
    Louisa
    
    

    I don't think age changes a herd-bound horse - it's really the
    mentality of the horse and as mentioned, respect for the rider and
    trust.  Round pen work is based on exhausting the horse to submission
    which I can see application for in really difficult situations.  The
    key to round-pen training success is to teach a que that 'brings the
    horse back to you' or teaches him to focus back on you because, in the
    round pen, when you give the que and he responds, you stop demanding
    something from him (he can catch his breath).  In other words, you have
    the ability to stop the pain/hurt/stress with this que.  The idea is to
    have this tool (que) when in sticky situations.  You could develop a
    que and never use the round pen - just remember to be consistent with
    it all the time.  The round pen adds stress and shortens the learning
    time.
    
    The same principle can be applied if you school or lunge before going on 
    a trail ride.  First you work down the energy level, then you create a
    routine where he will get to relax and not do much when he's on the
    trail.  I've ridden horses that weren't herd-bound but really jumpy on
    the trail - like they felt really vulnerable to danger.  I like to use
    a que of pressing my hands down on the neck to settle my horse.  I
    started this after work sessions as a que to relax and it's handy when
    we're on the road and a backhoe drives by.  In analyzing this response,
    I don't think he is consciously obeying my que - I think the que
    triggers a physical response (ie: muscle relaxation ala Maslow).
                                             

    
    Round pen work or lunging also takes the "edge" off....
    
    What I mean by that is that a horse has nervous energy, and
    then natural energy.  If you do RP work or lunge first, you
    get through the nervous energy, and are then able to ride
    the horse at his/her natural energy level.  
    
    A much more enjoyable ride for both the horse & rider, IMNSHO....

Well, sometimes I think I would be overmounted on a miniature horse.  However,
in this case, I feel that Louie just needs some positive reinforcement and
everything will work out just fine.  Unfortunately, I'm in a boarding
situation where its going to be my own positive reinforcement or not
much else.  

I very much like the idea from Louisa about riding in front for just
a bit.  I think that might just do it for him, since he seemed to calm
right down when the mare took the lead.  I'll also try spinning him when
he backs and riding in a different saddle.  

And it is nice to know that you aren't alone!!!!!!

Jan

    A friend I ride with at times has had a good amount of luck with
    longeing before a trail ride, too. She has no round pen (how many
    of us with horses at home actually do? :-). Her horse is the nervous
    spooky type on the trails, and while lunging him first does not make
    him any braver, it does make him more manageable. Also, it seems to
    have the effect that he considers leaving the barn and going out as a
    way of relaxing while staying home means being lunged (worked!), so he
    has become more and more willing to head out. He still has a problem
    with his lack of courage, though, and for that she likes to have me
    ride my mare with him at times....my mare is gutsy and energetic,
    he must move forward to keep pace with her and get past 'spooks' she
    totally ignores, and my friend has often been able to get him beyond
    a spooky spot alone if my horse has gotten him by it in the past.
    It just takes time and patience, but it's worth the trouble, there's
    nothing like a pleasant trail ride on a horse you can relax on!
    

I wholeheartedly agree!  When I was in Colorado, I didn't do too much
trail riding.  Now that I'm in Atlanta, I have miles of gorgeous, shady,
hilly, grassy trails.  Its absolutely heaven!

I have tried lunging him, but he either just goes along on the lunge
like always and still spooks/refuses _or_ he gets more and more excited
and the lunging makes things worse.  But then again, lunging is a
whole different subject for us (he's not remarkable well trained for
the lunge and I have a trainer working on this, so maybe it will help
more after he understands more of whats being asked).

Another good suggestion!!!

    re:past reply  Yes I was wearing one of those silly little helmets,
    otherwise I would have cracked my scull when I went out! I judge the
    horses fault in any accident based on whether I did everything right or
    whether I did something stupid! You see my hobby is training horses,
    not so much riding them. The day I went off I had broken a few of my
    own rules. I was tired, the horse had a sore mouth from new teeth
    coming in and I did not use the right bridle, and I was too lazy to
    shut the gate. Someone has to train the silly four year olds that turn
    into the bombproof horses at ten. I think it has come the time that I
    stick with the calmer breeds, Saddlebreds are not!
    Sandy
    

    I use lunging in the wintertime for 2 reasons:  for one, my horse is 
    a bit cold-backed in the winter and it helps him to get a bit warmed 
    up without a rider's weight; and the other reason is that when it is
    icy out, he doesn't get the extra exercise during turnout that he
    normally would, so lunging gives him a chance to get some wild bucks
    out before getting on.
    
    FWIW, I don't consider myself overmounted, but as a training project,
    my horse is definitely has given me new levels of experience that I
    never dreamed of!
    
    mary

    
    
    Can you try going out with someone on a bike?  It often doesn't matter
    to the horse if they have equine company, as long as it is company. 
    When I first had my horse she was nappy going out alone, herd bound
    (still is - to an extent) spooky, you name it. But she followed my
    daughter on her bike like a lamb, and after a while went out on her
    own. Perhaps you could try following the bike out a little way, and
    taking the lead back homewards. Worth a try?
    
    Karen
    

Thats a good idea!  I'll bet I could con one of the neighbor's kids to
do this for me.  Plus it would get him used to bikes.  He's ok with 
mechanical stuff like bikes, cars and such if he can get a good look
at it first.  I could start in the arena and then take it on the trail!

I rode on Friday with a lady thats a really experienced rider.  She
took the horse that I usually go out with (the *extremely* herd bound
mare) and I took Louie.  We started out with Louie following and he
was just fine.  The mare was looking at everything, but she lead willingly.
We walked to a place in the trail where we could trot safely and then
trotted for a good pace.  When we stopped, she told me to have Louie
lead.  I did and he sucked back immediately.  I got him to move forward,
but it took alot of leg.  She kept following and we did fine until
we got to the dam.  Louie has crossed this *dozens* of times with 
no trouble at all (leading, too).  Friday it turned into the purple
people eater.  We backed into the mare and tried to get past, but when
my friend told me to straighten him out (he was trying to back around
the mare), I did and he stopped.  From then on, when he backed, I would
make sure that he had to back straight and not curve off the trail.  For
some reason, this stopped him alot sooner.  She also had me lean
*way* back while he was backing (probably not as *way* back as it felt).
It felt like we made alot of progress.  Louie isn't all that much
better at getting by the monsters, but I sure handled the ride better.

Things are looking up!