Conference noted::equitation

    HI I'M A FIRM BELIVER IN JACK!! I HAVE MET HIM AND HAD HIM WORK
    ON MY HORSE. MY HORSE WAS CROSS CANTERING AND BOLTING EVERY TIME
    I CUED HIM. GOOD FRIENDS OF MINE ARE VERY GOOD FRIENDS OF HIS.
    I TOOK MY HORSE TO THIER HOUSE IN MIDDLTON,JACK MET US THERE.
    HE WORKED ON MY HORSE FOR 15-20 MINS TOPS AND HE WAS SOUND AS A
    DOLLAR AFTER THAT. TOOK HIS LEADS AND WAS SOOTH AS SILK! MY HORSE
    ALSO WAS OFF IN THE SHOULDER AND EVERYONE SAID IT WAS PROBABLY
    NAVICULAR. JACK WORKED ON HIM AGAIN AND SAID HE HAD 3 SPASMS IN
    THE SHOULDER. HE MARKED THE SPOTS IN THE BOOK SHOWED US HOW TO FIND
    THEM AND FIX THEM. I COULD GO ON AND ON ABOUT PEOPLE I KNOW WHO
    HAD PROBLEMS THAT HE HAS HELPED. I WILL GET HIS NUMBER WHEN I GO
    HOME TODAY AND WRITE BACK TONITE. 
                                  ROBIN

    We took our horses to a farm in Mass. (thought I remembered the
    town, but now I don't) and had Jack Meagher work on them.  Jack
    lives in Rowley, Mass. and usually travels only in Mass. and not
    very far from Rowley.  Jack found a few tight spots on both of the
    horses he did for us which helped us understand and work out some
    of the bending problems we were having with the horses.
    
    Jack has one person that he trained (don't know his name, though) 
    who comes up to NH to do horses.  He does horses at Otter Brook Farm 
    in Peterborough and at Jenny Heaton's in Francestown.
    
    I can try to find out the name of this person if you want or you
    can try calling Jenny Heaton.  Otter Brook has one of the owners
    in the hospital so it's hard to contact anyone there now.  The reason
    I suggest you call Jenny is that I'm going on vacation on Thursday
    and may not be able to find out before then as I'm really busy here
    and at home.
    
    You may also want to try some of the TEAM stuff that Linda
    Tellington-Jones does.  We found both of these (TEAM and massage)
    do the horses some good.  Good luck with your horse's shoulder problem.
    Hope you can find out what it is and what to do about it.
    
    						Jan

    Jack has come up as far as Groton to do horses at our barn and he
    really is wonderful. My horse was never off but he was not tracking
    up evenly when working to the right. I had talked with various vets
    who could find no concrete (ie, bruises, injuries, etc.) but one
    (Dr. Mike Lennon, who by the way is a GREAT vet!) suggested that
    I contact Jack and have him take a look. Well, like the previous
    replies, there seemed to be a muscle knot in his left shoulder which
    would be set into spasms when asked to bend going to the right,
    hence the uneven tracking.
    
    I do know that there is another person, Jeanne something, who is
    also very good. I'll try to get any info about her. She might be
    a little easier to get ahold of than Jack.
    
    Linda
    

    
    Thank you all for such quick replies!  I'm real excited that some
    of you know how to contact these muscle experts.
    
    Can't wait to get some phone numbers!  I'm more than willing to
    transport my critter, take a day off from work etc. to look into
    this!
    
    Dani
    

    Hi!  This is the masseuse who I've seen at shows and who does a couple
    of horses in the barn.  She's very friendly and will show a person how
    to do their own horse.  



			Jeanne Sullivan
		Registered Physical Therapist

			(617) 525-3392

	P.S.  Her card also states that she does both horse and rider!

    HERE IS JACKS NUMBER 
               (617) 948-3931 
    HE LIVES IN ROWLY AND I ALWAYS GET HIM AFTER 8:30 PM. 
    GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR HORSE.
                           ROBIN
    

    
    Caroline and Robin,
    
    Thanks for the numbers.  I will call both Jack and Jeanne to see
    who will be able to take a look at my critter.
    
    I let you all know how it turns out!
    
    Thank you, Thank you Thank you!
    
    Dani
    
    

    Dani,
    
    Jack comes to the barn I'm at every wednesday. They use to let people
    bring their horses there to met him. Its Stepping Out Farm in
    Littleton. Don't know if that helps but you never. I too am sold
    on Jack and his methods.
    
    Nancy
    

    
    Hello All!
    
    Jeanne Sullivan came out to my barn yesterday and worked on my critter.
    She was excellent!  Super with horses and she teaches the owner
    how to do the massage.  She even wrote the important stuff down
    for me.  
    
    My horse wasn't too sure about the whole deal initially, but after
    about 10 minutes his eyelids started to droop and his lower lip
    started to relax.
    
    I was amazed how much easier it is to feel the tension and find
    the muscles when someone shows you where they are.  I could
    really feel the difference after she had worked on them and the
    muscles relaxed!                                   
    
    The bottom line with my creature is that she thinks there was a
    minor muscle tear in his right shoulder.  It's a bit puffy and highly
    sensative.  He's also tight in the diagonal hind quarter which she
    believes has been trying to compensate.  
    
    I plan to have Jeanne back in 3-4 weeks to see how my technique
    is coming along and to give my horse (and maybe even me!) a massage.
    
    Dani
    
    Oh by the way, I chose to try Jeanne first because my horse has
    an obvious preference to be handled by women.  This probably came
    from his racing days or the time he spent with horse dealers.
    
    

    All this massage stuff sounds like Linda Tellington Jones' TEAM
    methods.  I wonder if Jack and Jeanne learned from Linda.  If
    you are interested in more info about TEAM (Tellington-jones Equine
    Awareness Method), there is a VERY informative newsletter, videotapes,
    and classes you can take.  I can type in the address if anyone is
    interested.  It costs about $15/yr to subscribe.
    
    Linda goes around the world teaching her methods.  She has been
    to Russia, Australia, Austria, etc. and she writes about her trips
    in the newsletter.  
    
    She has done alot of clinics in Colorado.  I attended a 2 day clinic
    and was very impressed.  She took horses that were really wild because
    of pain, worked them, and the next day these horses were very
    different.

    
    Sherry,
    
    Please do put in the address for the Tellington-Jones method. I'm
    sure some noters will be interested.
    
    I don't know about Jack but I do know that Jeanne studied under
    Jack.  She is also a human physical therapist and applies knowledge
    of people to the horses.
    
    Personally I have tried some of Linda Tellington-Jones' methods
    and found them useful but not quite the same thing as the sports
    massage.  Both are very useful techniques, I would recommend the
    anyone considering one should also look at the other.
    
    Dani
         

    
    the address is:
    
    	T.E.A.M. club
    	Box 5 Site 9 RR8
    	Edmonton, Alberta T5L 4H8
    	Canada
    
    I think you could ask for a sample newsletter.  Or if you care to
    join the info need is name/address/phone, how you heard about them,
    	if you've attended any clinics, when & where, and if you've
    received any newsletters.  Regular member: $15  Family/Sustaining:
    $25  Supporting member: $50   Overseas:  $25
    
    There are back issues for sale and reprints of articles in various
    horsey mags, etc.  You might ask for the list.
    
    
    	I hope this helps... I sure enjoy reading them.   
    
    		Sherry

    does anyone have any documentation on how to do a massage, or some
    how to do acticles i could make a copy of??
    
    i have seem team: method and was not really taken by it.
    and i have all the documetation but figure massage would be better.
    
    		thanks 
    		wendy 
    
    

	 Jack Meagher  has a spiral bound book detailing equine massage.
     It's available in many tack stores.  It's reasonably priced.  

    
    I DIDNT KNOW WHERE TO PUT THIS, AND I DIDNT WANT TO START A NEW
    NOTE.
    
    
      	has anyone heard of accupuncture for horses?? is there someone
    in the new englad area?? does accupuncture really work??
    i had a friend do accupressure, but i feel it isnt something i would
    spend money on...
    
    		thanks..
    
    		wendy o'
    
   

    There is someone in Newton who does it.  Don' remember his name
    but he also works on people.  He should be listed in the telephone
    book
    A friend of mine took her horse there...she was pleased with the
    results.  You may know her, Judy Lorimer.  Big on trail riding and
    writes the newsletter for ECTRA in The Pedlar.
    
    Good luck
    

    
    Quite a few years ago, I had a gelding that 'tied up' (which is
    a muscle cramping situation caused by excess amounts of lactic acid
    and the major muscle groups are effected [in a nutshell]... If left
    unattended a horse who ties up or has a tendancy to tie up can have
    perminent damage.  In this care we caught it early and began treat-
    ments of warm towel soaks, vitamin E/selenium (IM) [and as a part
    of his diet thereafter] and rest.  He responded fairly well, but
    after two weeks still seemed 'sore' over his kidneys and hips....
    My vet asked if he could try acupuncture, said he'd been using it
    on some of the race horse string with very good results - so I thought
    "well, what have I got to loose?"  So, for the next 6 weeks every
    tuesday morning we'd load Fid on the trailer - ride to the track
    and he'd get his treatments.  In four weeks all the signs were gone
    and in six weeks he was getting down right cranky that we were still
    'sticking needles in his hide'!!
    
    My experience was a good one... I think it's important to make sure
    you work w/a vet who 1. believes in it (some are skeptical) and
    2. has some actual hands on experience........
    
    Good luck...  h
    

re.-2 yea i know who you are talking about...
    
    
    well muscle sounds good, but will it help bone???
    like if someone has arthitis (sp?) what are people using??
    will accupuncture help??
    i know feeding yucca helps (well its supposed to, but we'll see)
 see i have a freind that shows on the congress curcuit, her horse has
    arthitis.. she uses yucca and hes fine.. bute, give horses ulclers
    if used over a period of time, plus they build up immunes, like
    we do to pain killers..
    
    

    I looked thru the directory to see if there were any discussions on
    Massage Therapy, I thought there had been at one time, but couldn't
    find anything. Does anyone know off hand if there are any notes on
    this topic in the file? If not, what I"m looking for is the phone
    number for Jeanne Sullivan. I'd also like to know if anyone has used
    her services and what they thought of the whole concept??
    
    One of my horses is having some problems and every test possible has
    been run on him trying to detect the least little defect anywhere. 
    Nothing has shown up and he's been given a clean bill of health. I'd
    like to talk to a Massage Therapist and see if the trouble might be
    stemming from some form of muscle or skeletal trouble.  
    
    Thx
    Marianne
    

    I was forwarded Jeanne's number. It was in note 318.5, however it
    has since been changed to 508-948-7821. The keyword being Therapy..
    
    Marianne
    

    RE .0
    
    Marianne,
    
    Have you tried a horse "Chiropractor"?  I've heard *great* things
    about them up here in B.C., Canada.
    
    They work on the spine as well as the muscles (massage), just as
    a human chiropractor would, and I have heard that they can work
    wonders for our big four-legged friends...
    
    cheers,
    
    Barb
    

    
    I called Jeanne Sullivan and made an appointment for next week. 
    Hopefully this is just a matter of a wrenched muscle.... She did say 
    that if it was spine related that she would advise sending him to
    Tufts, the Vet I am using also said this...anyone have any feelings
    about this? I myself am not excited about that prospect....I don't
    own this horse though and the owner has no problems with using Tufts...
    
    Thx
    Marianne
    

    Someone at my barn has been having a chiropractor in to work on her
    horse. The chiropractor, from what I understand, doesn't specialize in
    animals (just the 2 footed type) and yet seems to be doing a really
    good job with Sugar. It's the first time I've seen her walk normally.
    (I forget what her problem is).
    
    			Cindy
    

    Who is the Dr.?  Is he local?  I'm @LKG

    Marianne,
    
    What are the symptoms?  My horse had a severe spine problem.
    Through systematic hard work, and miraculous luck, most of
    the symptoms have disappeared.  He's limited in jumping, but
    the original diagnosis was only walk/trot, so anything we do above
    that is a miracle.  (the injury happened 4 years ago)
    
    We had Jean Sullivan out to our barn too.  She said she could
    have helped Ki if he would let her, but he's kind of grumpy
    old guy, and decided massage wasn't his thing.  He must
    have really liked her though, cause he warned her before he
    kicked her (usually he just kicks).  She wisely took the warning
    and left him alone.
    
    I never did go to Tufts, however, at the time my vet didn't
    recommend it anyway (and I always listen to my vet).
    
    Good luck -- Jeanne really is great.
    
    Dawn

    Re .5
    I don't know the name of the chiropractor but he works out of Athol,
    Ma. If you're interested in finding out his name, let me know.
    		Cindy
    

    I have used both Dr Harling on all of our horses as well as a foal
    that had many problems....all were corrected in my case.  I would
    recommend Dr. Harling highly.
    I have also used Jeanne Sullivan.  She worked on one of our show
    horses who had an uneven trot in the front.  The mare was very fussy...
    didn't kick or anything but found it hard to stand still.  However,
    she did made some improvement.  However, since the mare was a goodly
    distance away we only had her the once...maybe more treatments would
    have given us the desired result.  She is very nice and I know she
    has helped a number of horses.
    
    Good Luck
    

    Thx for all the replies. Jeanne came out last night to look at the
    critter. I thought she did an excellent job at evaluating him. Turns
    out that the problems stem from his knee. The prognosis wasn't a 
    good one, but it explained ALOT. I only wished I had her come out 
    before all the vet bills piled up.....
    
    Thx
    Marianne
    

	Marianne -

		Are you or the owner of this critter considering having
	his knee X-rayed??   At least you're closer to pin-pointing his
	problem.

					-Caroline

    
    Hi Caroline, yes the owner is going to have the horse xrayed. Shes
    taken him back and is deciding how she wants to pursue this.
    Unfortunately it looks like the condition has been there for many years
    and gone untreated. Finding out about his past history has answered
    alot of questions. Since I had been having problems for two months ever
    since acquiring him, I knew there was something serious happening..
    
    Marianne
    

    
    Does anyone know of anybody who would come to the Milford Ma. area. I
    have a horse who injured her hip last year, and still is bothered
    by it from time to time. I think massage would help her.

    Thanks
    
    Gina
    

ED LAMB
Littleton, MA

Member: American Massage Therapy Association

He does Sports Massage & Therapeutic Message.

Ed gave my horse a massage a few weeks ago and did a really good job.

His first visit is FREE.  After that it is $25 an hour.  But if you get him a 
referral he will give your horse a massage for 1/2 price for each referral.  
(The reason he is doing these specials is because he just started doing horses 
6 months ago and wants to build up his clientele).

If you call Ed, please mention my name (Susan Goldman) or Digital Notes files 
so that I can get the reduced rate.  His number is 508/264-4445 or you can call 
his beeper at 1-800-202-7854.

Try it!  Your horse will love it!


    

    There is a book called "Beating Muscle Injuries", (or something like
    that) you can purchase it at your local tack shop.  The book explains
    the horse's anatomy and its relationship to muscle injuries.  The bottom
    line is massage therapy works, and you can learn to do it yourself.  All
     horses can benefit from the techniques.  I'm a believer!  My horse proved
     it to me.

    The owners of the barn I'm at have a person come in once a month and
    has now taught the horse owner how to give a good horse massage.  They
    (the owners) think it's done wonders for the horse and the horse seems
    to enjoy it.  They give it a massage before taking it out, they are
    deeply into dressage and spend hours in the ring.  Then my instructor's
    horse came up with a sprain and she brought in this person and she 
    (my instructor), who was skeptical, thought it really works.
    
    Bottom line is massage works, and those that do it are very willing to
    teach you how to do it right.....
    

i had ed lamb massage higgins today.  he found a few muscles knots and showed
me how to find them.  then i rode higgins (dressage)  and though i found 
nothing earth-shattering, his trot lengthenings were definitely improved 
(though I was hoping that his walk would see some improvement.)  my
questions are about what to do/expect now.

1- do any of you massage your horse before riding?  does it make a difference?

2- did the horse continue to move better? was there lag time(ie. will i see
improvement in the next few days?)  

3- how often do you have the masseur come out to do your horse?  

i believe in the results but i would like to know what to expect...i must say
though that i liked ed very much and higgy did too.  i will certainly have him
out again but when is the question...(and when can i afford it...)

thanks for your input.

janet. 

    
    A couple of things I've noticed over the years both from having my
    horse massaged and from going to a chiropractor myself
    
    	The day of the treatment there is sometimes an immediate improvement
    	and sometimes I or my horse is stiff and sore but wait 24 hours
    	and things are much better.
    
    	Treatment for injuries is where the biggest and longest lasting
        improvements are seen - recovery time is often shorten
    
    	Treatment for general stiffness and balance problems is harder to
    	judge the tangible benefits but my aged mare saw Jack Meagher on
    	a regular  basis and was considerably more comfortable because of
    	it. Regular basis was every 6 to 8 weeks, sometimes more frequently
    	if we were competing alot (Hunters)
    
    I watched Jack work on a youngster yesterday. This young'un is a
    beautiful mover and little to smart for his own good. His trot has
    been considerably shorten recently. Jack's work had him moving
    beautifully in a very short time but he also made recommendation on
    changes to the saddle and padding as well as some excersizes to
    minimize the problem.
    
    Also heard me say - He doesn't like to work on a horse that has just
    been worked. THe muscles are too warm and the massage doesn't take.
    2 hours at least between the horse working and getting the massage.
    
    Did Ed have a suggestion about when he should come back?
    
    Nancy
    

hi nancy--

like your comments...they sound like what i feel...ed was rather vague about
when he should come back.  he said at first it should be "more frequent" but
then it depends on the pocketbook (boy, can i relate to that!).  he said
some people have their horses done once a week, or once every 2 weeks, or once
a month.  but then he said that it shouldn't be too infrequent or it loses its
preventative ability.  so my question is:  we don't have a **real** urgent
injury to fix, and my pocketbook would rather not spend alot when it's not
necessary.  soooo, what's wrong with once every 2 months or so?  i am going to 
continue to massage higgins as i saw him do it (i know i'm no expert but maybe
i'll get better and i certainly can't hurt anything)  As a matter of fact, i
did higgy's shoulders and hips and we had some more decent lengthenings this
morning!  

all in all, i think i am pleased just to have seen ed work and will certainly 
have him back though every 2 weeks would be a bit much for me.

any more comments?

janet.

    
    If you are thinking about doing your own massages you might want to
    do some reading. There are a couple of good books on the subject.
    I wish I could remember their names - perhaps you can find them
    in this notesfile. Also, check out something called TEAM, they
    encourage and teach the owner/rider some massage techniques.
    
    Nancy
    

    JANET
    
    you might want to start with moist heat first for 10-20 and then do a 
    massage..
    
    and then i wuld tend to do it in the evening, then hes sleeping soon
    and he wont have time to bunch up the muscles, and he wont be so
    prone to spasms (if thats what he gets or why you are treating with
    a massage) the muscle/tendon will respond to the massage after awhile
    and make sure you pick up the skin if you can (softens the skin and 
    the only way to discribe is separating the skin from the
    ligiaments/muscle)

re: .8...the purpose of the massage is to loosen the muscles prior to exercise 
(which will help higgins to warm-up more efficiently for the first 10 minutes or
so of the workout).  so doing it in the evening would not serve the purpose.
(unless what i wanted to do was work on a spasm, as you say.)  he has not
had trouble with spasms since i put him on a small amount of vit e and selenium.

so i certainly can't hurt him by massaging shoulders, chest, back and hips 
prior to a workout and (in the short time i've been doing it--a couple days)
he has responded well, with more freedom through his shoulders and more lateral
mobility.

i really should've read jack meagher's book before but you know how it is...i
intend on borrowing a copy this weekend--maybe it will help me become better
at it myself!

thanks all for your comments

    Does anyone have a phone number for Laurie Murray?  Laurie does massage
    therapy on horses/dogs/people.  I've used her before, and was happy
    with here work, but she has since moved from to So. NH to somewhere in
    Mass. and I no longer know how to reach her.
    
    Thanks,
    Kathy
    
    

    Has anyone had acupuncture performed on their horse?  If so, for what
    condition?  How many treatments were involved?  Any success?
    

   Accupuncture can be used for many problems, just as it is in people.
   Some of the benefits of it that I see most often are relief of muscle
   stiffness (It can get deeper than massage for some problems) and 
   expediting healing of injuries. Some people have accupuncture done
   regularly as a preventative measure. When the horse is feeling his
   best going into a show or event, he is less likely to injure himself.

   The number of treatments varies depending on what is being treated,
   why, and how 'bad' the problem is. 

   I know of several vets that are now incorporating accupuncture in
   their treatment of animals suffering from muscle and tissue injuries,
   or even just stress. 

   Topic 318 discusses massage and accupuncture.

    
    There is a vet in Minnesota that does a lot with acupunture.  He 
    has successfully treated horses with navicular syndrome, with stifle
    problems, back problems.  
    
    When my horse fell and injured herself and it took 4 months before she
    could walk decently, I almost took her there.  But she recovered on 
    her own before I could get her to him. 

I tried acupuncture on my pony, who had chronic founder, hoping to relieve 
the pain in her feet. I did not see observable changes. However, the person 
doing the acupuncture was a human acupunturist with no related horse 
experience and i suspect he may have translated some of the pressure points 
incorrectly.

Daryl Smyley (sp?) in Mass received training in China for equine acupunture. 
She has apparently had good success on a variety of equines and problems. I
have not discounted acupunture as a viable therapy, but i would use someone
who knew equines.

-cj

Do any noters in Florida know Mike Farley?  Sorry, I don't know where in Florida.
His expertise now is Equine Acupressure.

My parents were very thrilled with what he was able to achieve.  They would
appreciate any information

He used to work on my Dad, and I promised my Mom I would ask.  (-:


                        Thank you,  Reedy

    
    
    	Does any one know of place that teaches Muscel Massage?  I am
    	interested in learning the technique.
    
    	I live in Chelmsford MA
    
    	Thanks
    	Donna

    	
    	Donna.. I don't know if he 'teaches' perse, but Jack Megher in
    	New England often gives clinics.....  my vet in Maine used
    	acupuncture frequently (and successfully).  
    
    	And on the same line - I just found out from reading "New Mexico"
    	magazine this weekend that Linda Tellington-Jones lives only
    	40 or so miles from here!  
    
    	h
    
    

    Holly,
    
    Didn't you know that LTJ was in Santa Fe, New Mexico? In fact, she
    holds several 5-7 day TTEAM training sessions in Ocamora, NM every
    year. Those are horse oriented. She also has several small
    animal/companion animal workshops in Santa Fe
    
    John

    
    	nope... doink!)@(#* on me
    
    	but now that I do my horizons are broadened!
    
    	smiles - h
    
    

    Looking for an update - I'm interested in massage therapy in general
    and am planning on going to massage schol next year.  However, someone
    would like me to practice on their two horses now.  I know I can't do
    people now (not legal) and get paid - and I'm not interested in payment
    right now for the horse stuff, but I would like to work on these two
    horses.  
    
    I've gone through notes 167 and this one (318).  Are there any new
    videos, books, or clinics out there (would need to be in New England
    for this), since these two notes got started?
    
    
    Thanks,
    
    Tina

    I looked up books in print and Jack Meagher's book, "Beating Muscle
    Injuries in Horses" isn't listed.  I have a phone number from 1987 -
    617-948-3931.
    
    Two questions:  Does anyone have that book and are they willing to sell
    it to me?  Is this still Jack's phone #?  I've tried to dial it and the
    dial won't go through.  It could be the phone or it could be he's
    moved.
    
    Many thanks,
    
    Tina D.

    >I looked up books in print and Jack Meagher's book, "Beating Muscle
    >Injuries in Horses" isn't listed. 
    
    Call Knight Equestrian Books(1-(207)882-5494) or Robin
    Bledsoe(1-(617)576-3634). Both list this book in their current catalog.
    Even if it's gone out of print since they sent out the catalog, they're
    likely to have it.
    
    

    I knew I could count on you!  I was hoping you would answer this note. 
    I just called Knight Equestrian and they have the book and are sending
    it to me today.  There is also a video, but they recommend I work with
    the book first.  Jack now resides in CT, so if he does a clinic I'll
    try to go.

    I had an interesting and long talk with the guy (who with his wife)
    runs Knight Equestrian.  He was really enthusiastic about massage for
    horse and rider.  He just returned from the Devon, PA show and said
    there was enough work there to keep 3 therapists busy full time.  
    
    He said that if one is good and gives good quality work, the work is
    there for horses, especially in the hunter/jumper world.  I'm in the
    Saddlebred world and it isn't really there yet.  What I here from other
    people is that Morgan people are fairly into massage for horses but the
    hunter/jumper/dressage people really believe in it.
    
    I would appreciate it if anyone could share their ideas on this (pro or
    con).  Have you had your horse done?  Would you have it done again at
    the barn or only at events or both?  Do you really see a difference? 
    What are you willing to pay?
    
    It was suggested to me, that once I get certified, I advertise a
    package price (travel and hotel extra) for going to a 3 day event. 
    Say for 200.00 I'll massage you and your horse once a day for about 1.5
    - 2 hours for the 3 days - that would be a real bargain considering most 
    massage treatment is 40-60 an hour.  I could do up to 3 people/horses a
    day, probably only 2.  Does this sound like real life?
    
    Any input is welcome as I'd like enough info to base some decisions on.
    
    

    Hello all - I hope *someone* out there can tell me if they've had their
    horse massaged or themselves and are willing to pay for it.
    
    You see, I may have to change careers quickly and I've signed up for
    massage school.  However, I haven't sent my money in *yet*.  I know it
    can be hard to start up your own client base, but I have some hopes.
    
    After reading the note about someone paying 30.00 to have their horse
    telepathically communicated with, I'd figure massage would seem pretty
    ordinary.
    
    If anyone can give me any feedback on massage for their horse or
    themselves, I'd appreciate it.
    
    Thanks

    >Hello all - I hope *someone* out there can tell me if they've had their
    >horse massaged or themselves and are willing to pay for it.
    
    Yes, to both! When we lived in NH, I had Jack Meagher work on a couple
    of our horses. A friend of ours in NH started with Jack but he wouldn't
    travel to NH to do her whole stable so she got somebody else to do
    them. There are a number of people in the horse country near Seattle
    who do equine massage too. 
    
    When we had a big wind storm 2 years ago, I strained some muscles in 
    my back. My Dr. recommended massage as part of the therapy. It 
    helped quite a bit so now I go sorta regular. We also have a 
    travelling masseuse who does 15-20 minute "chair massages" which can 
    be done in an office setting(because you stay fully clothed and are 
    seated in a special chair). I've had a couple of those but I'm not a
    regular.
    
    Out here, the typical human rate is $15-$20 for a chair massage and 
    about $40-$50 for a 1 hour massage or $55-$70 for an hour and a half. I
    think the typical equine rate is something like $30-$40 for a half
    hour. 
    
    Even though that sounds like a high hourly rate, I don't think you'll 
    get rich doing it. It is tiring and can be *hard* physical labor. The guy 
    I go to says he can only do 4 1.5 hour massages a day comfortably and 
    5 MAX! He also says he can't do that many 5 days a week. So, he's 
    only making $220-$280 each day that he works(which is 3 days a week).
    Minus expenses for tables, sheets, heating pads & other such equipment, 
    lotions/oils, studio rent and utilties(clients like to be warm!), etc
    
    Hope that gives you some kind of useful info

    To be honest, I'm not sure.  
    
    I would think a person would have an easier time breaking into 
    massage for humans before horses.  Do you have a vet you can hook up
    with?  Maybe they can make recommendations.
    
    Sounds like a good idea, especially if you can start w/ a human 
    based clientel, and supplement with horses or other animals.

    I have a friend that is going to school right now to be a massage
    therapist for horses.  I know he's spent a lot of time in classes
    etc.  I should see him at the barn tonight, so I'll see what I can
    find out for you.
    
    Linda

    To be honest, I doubt I'd pay for either one.  But I agree with
    Michele, I suspect you'd have an easier time breaking into it for
    humans than horses.  I know no one who has their horses massaged,
    it's just too costly for practical purposes.  But then, my friends
    are all backyard owners who are not heavily into showing or heavy
    training schedules (in fact, for most of the people I ride with an
    occasional lesson is a luxury :-).  I do low-level endurance.  At
    the upper levels I'm sure more riders have tried horse massage.
    
    For myself, well if my insurance would pay, I'd consider it.  I had
    a back injury a few years ago that still gives me trouble from time
    to time and the doc did say to try it if I wanted, that it could do
    no harm.  But!
    

    A horse we bought a year and a half ago was in a great deal of pain due
    to the misalignment of this back.  His head set was impossible to get,
    etc.  He ran the whole gammet....massage, acupuncture and chiropractic. 
    One person did it all...about $75/hour.
    
    It worked...he is now a "great" show horse that even an amateur can
    ride.
    
    If one could hook up with someone like this, I feel it would be
    invaluable.
    
    Kathie
    

    
    All the top show barns I know have an on-farm massager!  Alot of
    folks I know in the racing biz as well travel w/ there massager.
    
    10yrs ago at a race farm I worked for (autum end farm) we had our
    very own horse massuse!  So, it was big and being used back then
    by tons of folks.
    
    I know of few back yard folks (me, among others) who do use
    massues's from time to time (I'd love to use em' more often)
    
    I to, tried to break into horse massuesing, but it takes alot
    of muscle (alot more then doing humans) my club had Mike Scott
    out to do a talk and it was very enlightining..it was after
    that I decided to forget being a horse massues
    
    Good Luck and there is plenty of biz out there.  But keep in
    mind alot of folks allready have one they use...but I know
    you could find new people
    
    

    I saw my friend last night who is now in school to become a
    horse masseuse.  He stated that he is doing it the "right"
    way, meaning all the training etc. that is required.  He
    completed 828 hours of schooling/training to become a human
    masseuse, and in October will start a 6 month course in equine
    massage.  The training is very involved, including anatomy and
    physiology etc. 
    
    Linda

    Sounds like a good thing, especially if you can set your own hours, and
    develop an established clientel.
    
    Will you do house calls.....

    Re training for massage
    
    Out here in WA state, there's a state law which requires a "massage
    practictioner's" license to work on humans. A person must take a 
    1 year *full-time* training course at an accredited school to get a 
    massage practictioner's license. Anybody practicing on humans without 
    a license gets in big trouble if they get caught.

    re: .63
    Linda,
    	Could you tell me a little more about your friend who is taking the
    course in Equine massage? Where are these classes being offered? When
    you say 6 months, how is that broken up, is it every day 8 hours a day
    or is it nights, or 3 days a week, etc? Has the cost of this type of 
    instruction been told to you? If you could mention the cost it would be 
    interesting to know. Was there any advance studying necessary (like a
    prerequisite)?
    	The reason I ask is that there has been alot of talk about massage 
    recently at the barn my wife keeps her horses at and a few people are 
    pondering if this is something they may want to try. Several people at
    the barn Event and others are busy with Dressage so there are horses
    there that could probably benefit from massage. The only thing is none
    of them have heard any details as to cost, time, etc that I have the
    luxury of asking about over the network. Any information would be
    appreciated and I will pass it along to the folks at the barn.
    
    Thanks,
    Shawn

    I would like to know too (about where your friend is studying equine
    massage).  My massage course is 3 nights a week and all day Sat. for 9
    months, then the state of NH test and then the license 6 weeks later if
    you pass.  There is also a mandatory (log books have to be filled out
    and are on file if the state wants them) of an extra 150 hours free
    massage time on your own time during the 9 months.  The cost for my
    pgoram is 5600.00.  In NH you need a crazy number like 980 hours before
    you get licensed (why not make it an even 1,000).  In CA, at least 4
    years ago, you only needed 300 or 500.  Some states are only 150 hours. 
    The Province of Ontario requires 2,400 hours.  So the training hours
    are all over the place.  If anything in NH, they are getting stricter,
    which is good, but it does make for a long day after being at Digital
    all day long, with all the training hours.
    
    I bought Jack Meagher's tape on "Beating Muscle Injuries in Horses." 
    Not cheap - about 60.00. 
    
    In NH there is no licensing needed for working on animals.  Some of the
    ads I see in the local horse mags advertise equine massage, but I don't
    see the letters L.M.T. (Licensed Massage Therapist) next to a lot of
    the ads.  I suspect that a certain portion of the people aren't
    licensed for people, and are doing this practice on animals - it isn't
    illegal.  
    
    However, my stable doesn't want to have anything more to do with equine
    massage because the 1) price was too high per horse 2) this person
    twitched a horse to massage it, because the horse didn't like massage.
    They felt it was gimmick and they were being taken.
    
    I mean, if you were afraid of a massage therapist and someone twitched
    you, do you think your muscles would be relaxed?   That's what really
    turned off one of the owners.
    
    Jack Meagher talks about this and says there are two things to do.  One
    is, leave the animal alone, the other is to tranquilize it to get it
    out of an anxiety state.  But never restrain like that.
    
    I would love to go to an Equine Massage Clinic he'd give.  Does anyone
    know if he gives them? If so, where does he give them?
                                 

    I believe he took the "people" part of the instruction somewhere in
    Worcester and that was 828 hours.  I saw him briefly on wednesday
    night and we didn't have much time to talk as we were both racing
    our horses.  When I see him again I will try to find out more.
    
    Linda

    Hi Linda,
    
    Were you ever able to find out where your friend took his training for
    equines?  
    
    I saw a couple of ads this weekend for equine massage therapists and
    they mentioned something about being certified in "Equissage."  Does
    anyone know anything about this?
    
    Tina

    Hi Tina, 
    
    No, I haven't seen him.  Hopefully he'll be around this week sometime.
    
    Linda

    
    Hi,
    
    This note has been inactive for a while, so I thought I'd post a new
    entry to see if anyone has any updated info...
    
    Can anyone recommend a good horse chiropractor who'll travel to
    your barn?  I have a horse who could use an adjustment.
    
    I live about 12 miles west of Manchester NH. in the town of Weare.
    
    thanks, -John

    I have a general question for everyone... How many people out there
    have either had their horses massaged or are thinking about it? My wife
    competes her horses in Eventing and has thought about having the horses
    massaged after an Event to help them loosen up (or even before an event
    to have them loose before the activity). The problem is she is not sure
    of the benefit, or at least noticing the benefit. I guess it could be
    one of those preventative things where if the horse stays away from
    muscle problems you could say it was from the massage, or was it just
    because the horse never had problems.
    
    I wouldn't think the massage would do the horse any harm (just an
    assumption though, perhaps things could go wrong) but how do you
    measure the effect on a horse that wasn't showing any problems to begin
    with? Obviously a horse that was stiff to begin with that moves better
    after a massage has benefited from it.
    
    So, what are your results, how often do you or would you have your
    horse massaged and do you think there are enough people doing this that
    they could get to your barn. Also, what kind of costs are associated
    with massage and do people pay it?
    
    Thanks,
    Shawn

    
    I have had horses massaged with excellent results.  And my old trainer
    has a masseuse in on a regular basis (as well as chiropracters and 
    acupuncturists).  
    
    Its kind of like human athletes.  The you can keep muscles and 
    connective tissue flexible, the easier movement is.
    
    Plus, my horses appear to become more mentally relaxed. 
    

    I have also started having my horse massaged by a friend who
    just graduated from massage school and is in the process of
    setting up his own practice.  He worked on my mare earlier this
    week for the first time and she started out trying to kick him
    and acting bitchy but by the time he was done she was falling 
    asleep on the crossties.  He found a very large knot in where
    her shoulder connects to her neck and also found that she was
    stiff on extension.  I am going to start doing this regularly
    once she's back racing.
    
    Linda

    For those that have experience with this...
    
    What kind of costs are we talking for massage? Are they usually 1/2
    hour or hour, or do they vary? Is there an additional barn charge for
    them to show up? How easy is it to get an Equine Therapist to come
    out to your barn? Are there many Therapists out there (I'm interested
    in the west/central Massachusetts area)?
    
    Thanks,
    Shawn

    Actually, I haven't asked the cost yet!  *8^)  I think they charge
    you based on how much work your horse needs, though I'm not sure
    of that.  I'll get more info and post it.  My friend that is doing
    this travels to peoples houses to work on their horses.

re: Cost
	I had Mike Scott do my previous horse (who loved being massaged,btw)
	and he charged $25/horse.  He (Mike) still comes to the farm, though
	I haven't exposed Widge to the luxury! ;-)

	I don't know if his rates have gone up, it's been a while.

				-Caroline
	

    I have a 9-year-old Anglo-Trakehner mare who has an old stifle injury -
    she was x-rayed last September after a very bad flexion test... the
    x-rays showed the hocks to be clear, and just this small questionable
    area in the stifle.  So, the vet injected her stifle with hyaluronic
    (sp?) acid, we rested her, and then she was much better.
    
    However, she still had some generalized stiffness - resistance to going
    round, and my trainer thought a chiropractor might help.  A vet in
    our area also does chiropractic/acupuncture treatments and had helped
    another horse we know, so my horse Mandy and Mary Jo's (from this file)
    E.C. were seen by this vet.  I'll let Mary Jo tell E.C.'s story if she
    wants (she also did not have the most positive results... at least on an
    immediate basis).
    
    Mandy had acupuncture, some chiropractic adjustments, and also got a
    shot of Legend (intravenous hyaluronic acid, $60 a shot, it is
    recommended that initial treatment is 3 shots, once a week - supposed
    to go where it is needed as opposed to having to be injected directly
    into the joint).  That was on May 4.  She also had a flexion test and
    this showed definite problems, especially the right hind (same as in
    Sept). She wasn't real great during the week before she got her second 
    shot on May 11 - but she wasn't lame either.  On May 11 I rode her and 
    she was not a happy camper, but we got through it (she had another flexion 
    test and was worse than the May 4 test).  On May 12 we had a lesson and
    Mary Jo can attest to the fact that it wasn't pretty.  Mandy was very
    off - it almost seemed that she was off everywhere.  My trainer said
    don't panic - but I knew she was concerned.  She turned Mandy out for
    me yesterday, and rode her today - and she was sounder than she has 
    ever been!!!  Major relief, to say the least.
    
    So, sorry for the long story... but has anyone ever noticed that after
    an adjustment, the horse is initially sore but then gets better?  Or
    maybe even from personal chiropractic treatments (I have never been to
    a chiropractor myself), you have been worse off before you got better?
    
    Any input would be appreciated... for now I'm breathing a bit easier,
    but am still concerned.  We have a schooling show on Saturday (assuming
    still sound) and another visit with the chiro/acu/vet on Sunday.  I
    am convinced that the Legend injections cannot hurt, but I'm a bit
    concerned about the chiro/acu... although I cannot say definitely that
    these did not help.
    
    Sharon 

Based on people I've talked to and having it done on my
dogs, yes, you can be much sorer after a treatment than before.
The muscles are used to being in one (incorrect) position and then
the adjustment is done which causes the muscles to be used differently
than before. So your muscles get sore especially those muscles that
weren't really being used.

Acupuncture should not cause alot of soreness.

I did a whole bunch of TTEAM work on one of my dogs at a seminar and
he was very sore the next day. The TTEAM work is much less drastic than
chiropractic.

If you do have any questions, make sure you talk to your vet.

Vicky

    	My horse had a severe stifle problem last year - according to the
    	vet one of the loosest/worse he's seen in a long time. He only 
    	injected it once with hyaluronic acid, and at the same time he
    	injected his accupressure points with saline. Eb was sore for about
    	two weeks, we did a lot of hand walking up and down hills, then
    	back to trail riding, then back in the ring. He was fine and still
    	is. Dr Merriam said it is very rare he has to inject a horse more
    	than once. I'm not questioning your vet, but with what Dr Merriam
    	told me, it sounds to me like maybe the treatment was overdone on
    	your horse?? 
    
    	Sherry

    Thanks for the replies.  I'm thinking that the chirorpactic adjustment
    part of the treatment, probably caused the problem.  Never having been
    treated myself, I didn't think of this at first.  My mare has been
    "almost totally sound but not quite right" for so long... not obviously
    lame, much more subtle...and being basically a cooperative soul, I
    think she just got used to it - so, she was just comfortable enough.
    
    My "general practitioner" vet, who did the stifle injection in
    September, told me 1)sometimes it doesn't improve the situation (altho
    it did work for Mandy) and 2)she might need another injection at some 
    point (assuming it worked the first time).  Mandy also gets J-flex, which 
    is an oral chondroitin sulfate supplement.  He had done x-rays in both 
    legs, and her hocks were clear, with the only detectable problem being
    a small area in the stifle that did not quite look normal.
    
    The "chiro/vet" who has been treating Mandy recently, did the flexion
    tests and thought there might be hock involvement... but based on what
    I know from the x-rays, it's probably the same ol' stifle problem. 
    This vet also noticed back pain - but this could be a side-effect.
    When Mandy had her stifle injected directly, she had 2-3 weeks of
    rest.  The advantage of the IV hyaluronic acid injection is that it
    isn't invasive to the joint - so no rest is required to recover from
    the injection.  Also, the benefits are not limited to the stifle - it
    will go wherever it is needed (now, what I want to know is - "how does
    it know where to go?")
    
    I just got back from riding, and she felt *really* good.  So, I'm going
    to go for the 3rd injection and 2nd chiro/acu, and cross my fingers...
    she really is much better.
    
    Sharon
    

I can only correlate my experiences with dogs. The different
injections and supplements all contain either precursors or
the final building blocks for the fluid in the joints. The
idea is to give the body plenty of construction material in the
hopes that more joint fluid will be produced. With more cushioning
for the joint, you should get more freedom of movement especially
if there is any arthritis. When you inject subcutaneously, you
are assuming that the body will take what material it needs to
the area where it is needed.

The injections under the brand name Adequan are becoming very
commonplace for arthritic dogs, particularly those with hip 
dysplasia. There is often dramatic improvement. If there is
improvement, most of these dogs go on a long term maintenance 
program of receiving the shots. Some also take a supplement with
either chondroitin sulfate or a precusor on a daily basis.

Vicky

    
    Well, I wish i could say my experience was as positive as 
    Sharon's.  
    
    I started with a horse who was sound.  But a little stiff in the 
    hips and/or hocks (about the difference between a 3 or 4th place
    in the hacks versus supple enough to win them.)
    
    My horse is now lame on all legs.  Her back is very sore.  We 
    treated her last weekend like it was a case of 'typing up' until 
    we got the blood results back.  The blood results look like there 
    was NOT a metabolic involvement.  (Only slight elevations in a 
    few of the blood enzymes.) 
    
    As of this a.m., she is sore to the touch over the coupling on the 
    right side (muscles VERY tight).  And she is sore in the shoulders.
    
    I ended up riding her at the walk for a while because she is getting
    really depressed from just hand walking (EC is very sensitive to what
    she perceives as lack of attention and hand walking is not what she
    considers 'attention').  She got better as we walked in the sand 
    ring.  But I am not sure if this was her attitude or actual physical
    comfort.  
    
    My regular vet is checking her out in the a.m. 
    
    At this point I am really, really sick to my stomach that she is
    feeling this badly. 
    
    Mary Jo 

     Has anyone out there heard of Trigger Point Myotherapy?  My friend who
    boards her horse with me just had this done to her horse and I really
    cannot believe the change in him.  The woman who did this procedure is
    Jean Lavin (in N. Grafton, MA) and she was recommended to my friend by
    her veterinarian at Mass Equine.  My friend had brought her horse to
    the vet two weeks ago for x-rays that showed that her 10 year old has
    arthritis in the back left hock but he also found the horse to be
    extremely tense and full of knots in his muscles.  Anyway, that's how
    she came to call Jean (to work his "kinks out"). Unfortunatly I
    couldn't go and watch her work on the horse but some other borders did
    and were amazed.  I guess what she does is works on specific "trigger
    points" in the muscles of the horse and then gives you exercises you
    can do to make the problem areas more flexible and to prevent any
    further stiffness (I'm probably not giving this technique the justice
    that it deserves in the description).   I watched this horse being lunged two days ago and he
    moved completely different.  He wasn't at all tense,  he was taking long
    strides and his head, which is usually reaching for the clouds was nice
    and level with his neck.  I called Jean yesterday to talk to her about
    possibly coming out to work on my horse.  I was telling her about some
    of the problems I was having with my horse and she started describing
    my horse and said that she had noticed him walking around in the
    pasture and said that he looked really sore and what she thought she
    could do for him.  I was really impressed with the time she took to
    explain what she did and what she could realistically do for my horse. 
    She was very honest and blunt (something I really appreciate so my time
    doesn't get wasted).  Anyway, she's coming to my barn next friday to
    work on my horse so I'll let you know what happens and how everything
    goes.  I was surprised when she said that she would be working on him
    for three hours.  I didn't want to ask her how much that was going to
    cost me but when she did tell me I was surprised at how reasonable it
    was.  So, all I really wanted to know if anyone had any experience with
    this type of therapy.  Sorry for such a long note!
    
    --Samantha