Conference noted::equitation

    
    Friends of mine in Pepperell, MA lost a beautiful black TB
    Gelding a few years back to a careless hunter, believe it or
    not he said he thought it was a moose (I don't know where this
    hunter came from or what drugs he was using)  The very next year
    the same people, lost their family pet appaloosa!  Don't know 
    what the hunter thought that might have been (bigfoot?)
    
    Both horses were in open fields surrounded by woods.  
    
    I know that GH Morgan horse farm in VT, during hunting season, 
    has to bring their horses in by 3:00 in the afternoon, as the
    hunters move up the mountain.  The owner lost one of his best
    horses from being shot.
    
    -M-
    
    
    (If you live in an area where there is lots of hunting, post
    signs - many, in the woods to be careful of the horses.  It's
    hard also though, as bullets can travel quite a distance before
    something gets in their way)
    
    

    If a hunter shoots your horse or any other livestock is he (I'm
    sure it's usually men) liable to you for the cost of the horse and
    the vet bills? My Mom used to really sweat when we rode during deer
    season. Bright colors were mandatory. liesl

    You don't have to wait for hunting season for the lunatics to be
    shooting.  Out my may (West River, MD -- near the Chesapeake Bay,
    south of Annapolis) there are "moonlighters," men who hunt by moonlight
    for food or sport, usually the latter.
    
    In late winter, I found my neighbor's Doberman lying on her side
    near the entrance to my hay loft.  When we eventually turned her
    over, there were two huge holes in her side.  The shells had entered
    near her neck and come out her side.  She had to be put to sleep.
     Scuttlebutt was the kid who lived down the road had been out shooting
    on his uncle's land at night, by the light..., and had wandered
    onto my farm.  He accidentally shot the dog, who was a very dark
    color.  The dog probably scared him and he shot her; it appeared
    to be close range.
    
    Truthfully, since I had chased that brat from a foot from my fence,
    right near by stable, I don't believe he "wandered" anywhere.  I've
    caught him in the middle of my pasture.  He's probably also the
    one responsible for shooting into my rural mailbox with a shotgun,
    blowing holes into both sides.  A kid like that is a menace to
    everyone!
    <very high flames>
    
    I guess the point of this tirade is that, in the country, watch
    out all the time.  We make noise in the woods and wear bright colors,
    too.
    
    Don't get me wrong.  I love where I live.  No young punk is going
    to force me out of living where I want to, after waiting so long
    for this place!!!
    
    Merrie

I too know of someone who lost her horse to a hunter.  The incident taught
me to beware of certain types of horse insurance also.  Her horse had some
sort of accidental death insurance so she thought she was covered.  As it
turned out, since the horse didn't actually die from the gunshot wound, but
"technically" died from the being put down by the vet... she wasn't covered.

I also know of another incident where a horse was dying from colic on the
operating table in Rochester.  When they opened the mare up they realized it
was too late to save her so they put her down.  Once again, the mare didn't
die from colic but from the injection... 

Back to the hunter topic though -- I put red sheets on my horses in the field
during hunting season.  I also use a flourescent orange tape and wrap it around
their halters, and in their manes and tails.  On weekends -- when it's a shoot
out at the OK Corral -- they stay in their stalls. 

Melinda

    I try to keep mine very close (in not in) the barn during hunting
    season.  
    
    Several years ago I was riding in a ring right next to the barn
    and had my horse shot out from underneath me.
    
    I figure its better to make them suffer for a while in the barn
    then have them shot.

    
    	When I ride during hunting season, I wear a bright orange hat
    	the kind that the hunters wear.  I also have a brass bell that
    	I hang from Cody's bosal.  I don't care much for the bell -
    	but at least the hunter should know that deer don't ring...but
    	then again there is always the first time.  If I am riding with
    	someone - we talk alot (something that is not hard fer me ta
    	do!!)  and If I am alone I talk to Cody (the woman is nutty).
    	I do NOT take my dogs into areas that I know there will be alot
    	of hunting - even with orange collars.
    
    	Re .5....  Did you lose your horse??!!  Did you find out WHO
    	did the shooting?
    
    	Susan

    The horse lived.  (We did have to removed buckshot from her head
    and neck.  Almost lost an eye.)
    
    The hunters were never found.

    

    	>  This may be jumping the "gun"
    
    
    Cute!  And at first, I thought maybe you *were* a bit premature on
    the subject (summer's barely begun, or hasn't yet -- lemme enjoy
    that for a while, as fall will be here soon enough!).
    
    But judging from the replies, as well as other stories I'm now reminded
    of, I'd say it's never too soon to start thinking about the hunting
    problem.  This really is a serious issue that needs to be publicized.
    You're absolutely right in getting the word out so riders can be
    prepared.  I personally have not taken wrapping/red-sheet precautions
    such as mentioned in the previous replies, but I believe I will
    this year.  I've heard too many of these stories to take the threat
    lightly.  
    
    I've been boarding my horse in Dunstable, MA, for nearly 5 years now.
    Although I've been lucky, I do know of others in the area who have lost
    horses to hunters.  Riders have been shot at while riding on public
    trails, such as conservation land. And Dunstable is a notorious hunting
    town -- people even come there to hunt illegally in the off-season. 
    
    What I'd like to know, from you folks who already replied with horror
    stories, is how the hunter (or shooter, whatever) was identified. Did
    that person come forward and 'fess up?  Or was some kind of detective
    work required?  More significantly, was the perpetrator held responsible
    for damages, or were the victims simply forgotten by our judicial
    system?  (No intent to knock our system -- just the facts, Ma'am.)
    
    In case any of you other noters out there are not convinced this is a
    serious problem, I suggest you consider the facts.  To understand just
    how much of a threat these hunters are to the lives of our animals (as
    well as ourselves), you have to realize how they operate, which too
    often is by reflex.  Granted, some of them are lunatics who will blast
    anything that moves, in the name of "sport."  But there are also those
    who pride themselves on safety, such as one highly respected hunter
    from Westford who was a highly-trained instructor of riflery and a
    hunting expert.  He had many years of experience, always emphasizing
    the safety factors to his students, including the one that says you
    should NEVER shoot without making a positive identification of the
    target. 
    
    Last season (I think it was), this man was hunting with a young
    companion, who was standing nearby but to the side so he was only
    perceptible by peripheral vision.  The kid pulled out a handkerchief to
    blow his nose, and the experienced pro, who had never before had an
    accident, just reacted to the flash of white -- turned and shot before
    he realized what he was doing. That was the end of the kid. The pro
    later suffered a nervous breakdown and, I believe, gave up hunting.
    (In case you're wondering, he'd mistaken the flash of white for the
    white tail of a deer.) 
    
    The point is that it's not just a few jerks out there that you have
    to look out for.  ANY hunter is a serious threat, regardless of
    his intention or experience.  
    
    Maybe I'm somewhat idealistic, but I believe we need more of a solution
    than just bracing ourselves and bearing the cost of someone else's
    blunder.  Keep in mind that most of these horse (and dog) shootings
    have occurred when the animal was peacefully hanging out in its
    own yard!!  
    
    With horse ownership on the rise, especially in the rural environments
    that attract hunters, these incidents are going to occur more and more
    frequently.  Eventually, *something* will have to give.  And I hope it
    won't be the innocent bystanders who are currently getting shot at in
    their own back yards. 
    
    I have thoughts concerning the long-term solution, but they probably
    warrant a separate note.  Besides, I've flamed on long enough here. 
    (Sorry about that, but those bullet-headed neanderthal wits really
    tick me off.)
    
    Obviously, nothing can replace a loved pet or assuage the anguish of
    such a tragic loss, but there must be some sort of precedent involving
    the $$ side of the issue. Please fill us in on whatever you know about
    the liability in these cases. 
    
    -steve-
    

A little follow up...The weekend after posting this
note, a 16 year old girl was shot and killed, and a 6 year
old girl was wounded in the pool at a local amusement park.
The cause? An idiot with an AK-47 high powered rifle
target shooting 400 yards away (The effective range of
an AK-47 is ~500 metres). This only reenforces the
opinion voiced in .8 that ANYONE with a gun is dangerous.

I like the bell idea. I think I'm going to try it.

    
    
    I would like to add my 2 cents worth:  Many years ago (early 70's
    sometime), when we had a large herd of Welsh ponies in the field
    (in Lancaster Mass), we had a mare shot and killed by a hunter.
    The hunter was never identified.  Not only was the death of one
    of our best broodmares tragic, but the mare had a foal by her 
    side that had to be nursed along after mom was killed.  The
    sadest part of it all was that the baby would still whinny and
    run to the spot where mom had been shot.  It was very sad, and
    even though I was very young, maybe about 10 years old, I still
    remember that time.  I am now real careful and usually end up 
    keeping the horses in the barn or in the small paddock near the
    barn during hunting season, especially on Saturdays when it seems
    to be at its worse.                                           
    
    Jenny 

    I can't remember exactly where (maybe my Sierra club mag) but I
    read an article about hunters that said 90% never go further than
    1 mile from the nearest road. This would mean you might be safer
    to keep the horses away from the barn area if it's by a raod.
    
    A number of years ago my husband and father-in-law took up a group
    of hunters on horseback to Redwing Colorado for Elk season. The
    second day up someone opened fire on their camp and kept shooting
    till Ray's dad fired back to stop them. No one horse or human was
    killed but the person firing had to know these were horses and people
    cause they had two large white tents up. I sometimes feel it's just
    plain bloodlust these folks have and they don't care what they shoot.
    liesl

	I am very sorry to hear of all those tragic "accidents".

	I am just going to jot down a few ideas here, as not only 
	do I live in the UK, but our hunting with guns is very
	strictly controlled here, so this is one problem that
	really does not happen much.

	I realise that there is little one can do about the stray
	bullet from a powerfull rifle fired hundreds of yards away
	bar building a concrete enclosure to put your horses in - 
	even barns will not stop the stray bullet !

	As far as the horse/dog/person - especially the horse grazing
	in a field/paddock, goes being mistaken for a deer, I feel
	that if the horse wears a large lightweight sheet or sweatrug
	in scarlet, flourescent pink or lime green or some other 
	revolting BRIGHT colour that is never seen in the wild, this
	should give the hunter pause to have that minute thought that
	there isn't any animal this colour, even if it is moving !!

	Bells tied onto the tail hairs (this being usually the only
	part of the horse that you can guarantee will be constantly
	moving) should also help in the matter.  

	Another idea might be to put up large visible signs saying
	- BEWARE HORSES / DOGS / CHILDREN - anywhere where hunters
	might park their cars, possibly in fluorescent orange. 

	You could also try tying colourful ribbons on trees at head
	height all around your property to give some warning of 
	human habitation - at least it would warn that something 
	unusual is around, could be in the same colour as your
	horse sheets, so that the extra flash of colour (horse) will
	perhaps seem to be another ribbon !!

	You could also try asking the various local bar owners/shop
	keepers to warn any potential hunter who may ask where some
	decent hunting might be found that there are horses/dogs/children
	in those areas.

	Anyway that's my two-penny worth.

	Have an uneventful fall.

	CJA

    Whoa.......something is definitely wrong here.  Why should we brace
    ourselves for hunters?  Why should we hide like victims?  This is
    crazy!!!! ^
    
    Why is it legal for hunters to go around shooting in residential
    areas?  I can't believe it.  Usually when they are caught they get
    off because it was accidental.  Well baloney with that.  If they
    can't hunt up in the mountains with zero population then they certainly
    don't belong hunting around farms where there are children, animals
    and so on.  Besides they are trespassing if the property doesn't
    belong to them!!!!!  Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr......
    
    One of my husband's relatives was killed by a stray bullet.  Guess
    where she was?  In her own dining room eating breakfast.  They were
    hunting trespassing on her property.   Yeah they got caught but
    of course they were let off.  To do it again????
    
    Maybe we should write to our congress people and start rallying
    for no hunting in certain areas or maybe all areas.  I still think
    they should go up north in the mountains where no one lives!!!!
    Or maybe they should have their own park.  Who knows but this present
    way isn't working in my opinion.
    
    Bobbi
    
    
    
    

    Unfortunately in this case the law protects the hunter more than
    it does the victim.  Hunters cannot come on residential property
    or within 500? feet of a building but if they do and you or your
    horse stops the bullet you'll have the satisfaction of being "dead
    right".  Trespassing is not trespassing unless the property is posted.
    This sounds easy but my experience is that hunters just tear the
    signs down.  Kathy knows some real horror stories about this from
    our old farm in Lancaster.  They'll pull the signs down in front
    of you and challenge you to do something about it.  Here in
    Massachusetts we have exacerbated the problem by requiring all hunting
    to be done with shotguns versus high powered rifles.  As a result,
    instead of drawing a slow bead on a well identified target, they
    have to get much closer and don't waste any time getting the shot
    off.  Sometimes they concentrate more on the shooting part than
    in identifying the target.  The best defense that I've seen so far
    is to ban hunting in the local municipality.  There are several
    towns that have done this in Mass with reasonable results.  Anyone
    with other suggestions besides shooting back?
    
    

    Hmmmmmmmm shooting back?  Reminds me of Crondile Dundee where shooting
    Joeys (kangaroos) is a sport.  The woman stood there in horror as
    Paul Hogan picked up a dead joey (it was nite time) put it in front
    of him and started shooting back at the hunters.  The hunters were
    in shock cuz they thought the joey was shooting back.  A funny scene
    but in reality it's truly horrid.
    
    They actually pulled down trespassing signs?  Then aren't they breaking
    the law anyway????  Oh by the way, my husband's cousin that was
    shot in her dining and died had postings on the property.  Whether
    they removed them I'm not sure.  I think they had animals too.
    
    There should be better laws.  
    
    Bobbi
    

    Sounds like we all have a pretty good grasp of the problem: It's
    just plain absurd that this situation exists.  Here we are in 1987,
    living in what is arguably the closest thing to a "civilized" society,
    with all our technological advances and sociological awareness; we've 
    made incredible strides in fighting disease and disability; we put men 
    on the moon years ago; we've got a machine cruising around somewhere 
    between Uranus and Neptune that's *still* being reprogrammed through 
    those billions of miles of space to send various data back to earth;
    and meanwhile, back on earth, we're still living in Dodge City.
    
    A few years ago, when the Kellys owned the old Cashel Farm in
    Dunstable, they told me about the hunting problems they'd had when they
    first moved in.  Mr. Kelly had to tell the hunters to stop shooting
    across his property.  He had little luck, as the local constabulary
    was somewhat less than helpful ("Duhhh, nuthin' we kin do 'bout that.").
    
    He finally put up NO HUNTING signs, and guess what happened to them.
    You guessed it -- they got shot to pieces.  (There just ain't 'nuf
    room in this town fer the both of us.)
    
    I think a showdown is long overdue.  I mean, we have laws that'll
    put people away for drunk driving and involuntary vehicular homicide
    -- why not reckless use of GUNS???  This is just a guess -- and
    only a *slightly* educated guess -- but I have to wonder if it has
    something to do with our government's overwhelming fear of the powerful
    NRA lobby.  If so, the long-term answer is to convince our jelly-spined
    politicians that it's time for a change.
    
    Meanwhile, I'm with good ol' Croc (as described in .15), not to
    mention Marshal Dillon.  Maybe it's time to start shooting back!  %^)
    
    sf

    Maybe we should start fighting them on their own shores.  The have
    the mighty NRA, we have the much less mighty American Horseman's
    Council, maybe we could get David to go after Goliath. Hmmm! Now
    where did I put that good writin pen...
    
    

    great idea!  Put me down to help.
    
    Merrie Aiken

RE: Shooting back...

An interesting story was related to me over the weekend. In my area, the
hunters not only trespass on your property, but they do so at night. They
drive around in four wheel drive vehicles equiped with searchlights. As
soon as they see eyes reflected in the light, they start blasting away.
Alot of cattle have been lost to this kind of idiocy. (Which, thank god,
is illegal in this state.) It is very difficult to get the game warden to
come and arrest them because they can get away so quickly. One local
farmer got so fed up with having his house and barns shot up by these
bozos that he did shoot back - blowing out the spotlight! Believe it or
not, the idiots were back doing the same thing the next weekend...

    RE: Shooting Back
    It is also illegal to hunt at night here in Colo. . If there is
    this much activity going on then WE all must try to make the law
    work for us. Do what is necessary to combat this illminded terror
    that hunters have been doing(trespassing,shoot before seeing, etc.)
    to any person or animal in this country. Their right to have & bear
    arms is one thing, but to endanger lives such as this is lawfully
    & morally unjustafiably wrong. Not all hunters are like this, but
    the odds that something happening to them is there. 
    How can we enjoy our past time when we have to worry about being
    shot at, even in our own back yard or land.
    What happen to some commen sense??????  Their supposed to have some
    skill & knowledge about what their doing. 
    I've have FLAMED enough about this, it's up to us to do something
    about this. We pay our politicians to hear & help us, let them know.
    
                         Steve-who-loves-his-Arab-ALIVE  :^)
    

    Any good writers out there?  I was wondering if someone could draft
    up a letter to send out to congressman/senators and maybe we could
    all send one out to our state senators etc.  If we all said the
    same thing maybe we would be heard and that they would really get
    the message.   I think it is a true problem.  Even here at DEC they
    post "no hunting signs" and with all the joggers that run around here
    who wants to be mistaken for a deer.  
    
    What da ya think?
    
    Bobbi
    

    RE: .21
    Sounds like the most logical idea to me. 
    I'm no Hemingway either.
    

    Well, since no one else has stepped forward with sharpened pencil,
    guess it's time to 'fess up.  I do happen to be gainfully employed
    here as a writer.
    
    Sorry for the delayed response, but it's been a while since I've
    had a chance to read this notes file.  And that's largely because
    I am, indeed, gainfully employed here as a writer.
    
    Actually, I was leading up to this in a previous reply (or two) to 
    this topic.  I didn't volunteer before because I was caught up in my
    periodical deadline crunch, but I also wanted to make sure there's 
    enough concern out there to get some support.  It's possible that 
    this could turn into a major commitment of time, and in order to
    maintain such luxuries as my horse, I intend to remain...gainfully
    employed here as a writer. 
    
    The actual writing of the petition is not the time-consuming part; it's
    the research we need to do first.  To make the petition (letter, or
    whatever) as effective as possible and to target the appropriate
    legislators, we need answers to some basic questions.  For example,
    exactly what laws are on the books pertaining to the discharge of
    firearms in public places, and what do they say in terms of liability?
    Are these laws strictly state laws, or are there federal laws as well?
    How do the laws vary between states, counties, etc.? 
    
    That's just for starters; we need to know exactly where the laws are
    failing us in order to determine the focus of our petition (can't count
    on legislators to figure it out).  In other words, it's not enough to
    say "This is wrong -- please do something about it." We have to say
    "Here is what's wrong, here is what's happening as a result, and here
    is what needs to be done.  Please respond by such-and-such date and
    tell us what you're doing about it."  Not to mention, of course,
    "Thanks for your help; your voters will remember you."  Okay, it'll be
    considerably more eloquent than that, but you get the point.  Believe
    it or not, I *am*...gainfully employed here as a writer! 
    
    It's very possible that someone, or some organization, is already on
    top of this. If we can find that out, we can save lots of time and
    possibly gain an important ally (who would be only too happy to have
    more help). 
    
    We know there are plenty of organizations that favor stronger
    gun-control laws, but our particular perspective may be quite unique.
    So the next thing we need is statistics to back our claims. Legislators
    *love* statistics.  Maybe we can find help through the various
    equestrian clubs -- that would be a logical place to start, and we
    should look to them for support, anyway. But my guess is that police
    records will be the greatest help, in terms of sheer volume in a
    relatively organized and available source. Maybe some noter out there
    has helpful connections(?). 
    
    I could go on and on, but I really have to get back to work right now,
    in light of the fact that I am, after all...gainfully employed here as
    a writer. 
    
    The bottom line is that I will write whatever letters or petitions are
    necessary, or, if anyone else would like to take a shot at it, I'll be
    happy to collaborate.  I'll coordinate this effort, unless someone else
    has a burning desire to do so.  I *am* asking, however, for volunteers
    to help me out with details such as those mentioned above.  And others,
    such as gathering names and mailing addresses of influential
    people/organizations who should be included on our mailing list, or
    whom we should ask for advice. To wit, groups like the Fund for
    Animals, which is headed by Cleveland Amory.  Also, local civic groups
    that might be concerned about the safety of children in any particular
    community. 
    
    If you think I'm making too big a deal out of it, you'd better think
    again.  You don't get action out of congress unless you hit them
    with everything you can muster, especially when you're up against
    the NRA.  A simple letter of complaint just won't cut it.  You have
    to get their attention and keep it.  And then you have to keep
    hammering them until you get results.  *Tactfully*, of course.
    
    Please contact me if you want to help.  Send me mail at INK or ERASER.
    I'll be right here at CFO1 in Concord, Massachusetts -- you guessed
    it...gainfully employed as a writer.
    
    steve                                                              

    Steve, a good bet for background (no. of horses in America, the
    size and scope of the horse industry, etc.) is the American Horse
    Council, which is based here in Washington, D.C.  When you need
    such info, give me a call.
    
    Merrie Aiken @DCO or MARBMS::AIKEN, DTN 341-2395 until July 20,
    when I, too, will be gainfully employed as a (technical) writer!
    

    Hi there! Excuse the lateness of my reply but I thought I could
    share a few ideas with you.  But first, has *ANYTHING* been done
    i.e., letter, proposal, etc. to our congressmen?  As a horse owner
    in a town where they are trying to squeeze us out, we have found
    the best thing to do is to stand together to show force.  We have
    three large 4-H groups (containing a high volume of horse owners,
    and a horse association boasting at least 85 active members. When
    the word got around that the town law-makers were proposing a re-zoning
    law which would force a lot of horse enthusiasts out, we passed
    the word and showed up IN FORCE and voted down this legislation.
    But enough of that and back to the issue at hand, protecting yourself
    and cherished pets/friends/lovers/family for those pea-brained hunters.
    
    I have for the past 7 1/2 years been enjoying a camping vacation
    in Rhode Island, with a great bunch of folks, every October.  It
    is my *sanity* release, to be able to ride for hours and hours at
    a time in state forests, on well marked trails, discover new things,
    etc. Get the picture.  As it happens we are down there around the
    time hunting season opens. Come to think of it, bow and arrow seasonis
    open while we are there and gun season opens during the week.  We
    have run into people using all sorts of weapons.
    
    I ALWAYS, ALWAYS, A L W A Y S bring my orange hunter's cap and vest.
    And now Cheyenne, my four footed friend has a bright orange covering
    for his breast plate.  I made it from pile material, it's machine
    washable (which I would suggest doing before you use, as I had an
    orange tinted pony the first time he sweated on it.) I also made
    an oversized covering for my saddle pad.
    
    As far as making noise, we do alot of that.  Matter of fact, Chey
    and I have a *running* conversation.  We always try to ride in groups
    of three or more.  I think the bell idea is a good one but I think I'll
    try it in a confined area first just in case he has a tantrum with it.
    
    An extreme case I read of, one woman spray painted the word HORSE
    on her nag.  So far it's worked.  But who can say some of these
    bozos can read?
    
    Well, I guess you do what you can.
    
    Safe Ridin' out there
    
    Roslyn %^}
    

    	Roslyn,,please,let's not generalize. I'm a horseman and a hunter,
    in fact we often use horses on hunting trips. Yes,,unfortunately
    there are some of us who rightfully deserve the name "BOZO",but
    the majority are concientious,and we take a lot of trouble and effort
    not to cause anyone any problems,and to not endanger others or their
    property. I'd be the first person to turn a "BOZO" hunter into the
    authorities if I saw him/her doing something dangerous or illegal,and
    I know a lot of other hunters who share my feelings.
    	By all means,take all reasonable percautions against those who
    are irresponsible,but please,don't dump us all into the same bucket.
    
    	Just my two cents' worth,
    		George

	I just saw the lastest in hunter and horse attire. Orange plastic
	stirrups. Not sure if they'll help but they sure looked strange.
	liesl

re: .26

Sorry, George, but I'd have to assert that you are in the minority. I assume
that because you are concientious and considerate you expect (and get) the
same behaviour out of your hunting buddies. That's probably why you feel
sensible hunters are in the majority. However, here's just a sampling of
the idiocy my neighbors and I have had to endure so far this year:

	- Killed livestock.

	- Fences cut, or gaps left open.

	- Shots fired across main roads.

	- Nearly running off the road to avoid a hunter's prize
	  buck that fell off his tailgate at 55 mph.

	- Spotlights in our windows all night (Even though it
	  is illegal to hunt after dark).

	- Trash and carcasses left strewn in pastures.

	- Countless cases of trespassing on posted land.

I really hate feeling that my wife and I are targets in our own home. Yet
that is definitely the case. The danger is far worse when we go riding. 
At least if you get shot in your own bed, your spouse can phone for help. 

/ed

Now that I've posted a negative reply, I thought I'd post a positive one.
Some of my neighbors have come up with a novel idea for containing
the damage to their property during the course of the hunting season.
They rent their pastures to local hunting clubs. The leases are explicitly
worded so that the clubs are responsible for:

	- ANY liability for people who are injured or killed.

	- ANY livestock that is missing or killed.

	- ANY damage to fences or forest.

	- ANY trash or fire damage.

No attempt is made to assess responsibility for any of the above actions.
The clubs simply pay.

The results are very good. The members of the clubs act as armed guards
for the pastures. They are very careful about the livestock and the land.
And they are fanatical about reporting poachers on "their" land. All of
the people who are doing this report that they have not lost an animal
since they started renting to the hunt clubs. It seems that this is a
effective method of weeding out the idiots. It is still too dangerous
to use the land for riding or recreation, but it beats having your
cows killed.

/ed

    	Thanks for the reply Ed. I still maintain that the majority
    of the hunters are responsible, I think that if you compared the
    number of incidents to the number of people hunting,you'd have to
    agree,however,even one incident like this is too much,and I agree
    that it's reason for serious concern. Just about everything you
    mentioned is illegal,including littering. The incident you mentioned
    about having to avoid the buck that fell off the car is stupid in
    every sense. Some states have a law against tying game to the outside
    of a vehicle,and I agree with that law. It's too bad that we can't
    get together with law enforcement authorities to get some of these
    people. Some of the blame also belongs to the courts,,all too often,
    judegs either let these people off completely,or impose minimal
    penalties because they perceive it as "only a wildlife offense".
    I sure wish we could change that attitude in the courts.
    	By the way,what part of the country do you live in??
    
    		George
    

re: < Note 284.30 by GENRAL::BOURBEAU >

George,

I live in rural South Carolina in the middle of the state about
40 miles south of Charlotte, North Carolina. I am originally from
New York City. Part of my aversion to hunters is that the only
other times that I have been exposed to guns (in the city), somebody
always wound up dead. Sorry if I get too fanatical about it.

/ed

               I can't believe some of the comments in this note. I
    am a horse owner and a "hunter"(oh no!). My fiance and I own a
    T.B. which is boarded at Shannon trails in Salem N.H. In all the
    years that I have been hunting, about 18, I've never killed any-
    one, destroyed property, shot farm animals etc.. etc... You can't
    convict the majority by the actions of a few. Yes, a few. Care-
    less hunters are the minority. I will admit that there are some
    nuts out there. But I refuse to read replies such as these and not
    respond. It is attitudes such as this that will cause more harm
    then good. From reading some of the replies here I can see that
    some don't even have any facts, just accusations. Hunting has been
    going on as long as there have been horses. Imagine, Indians used
    to hunt off of them. Oh my goodness! And some still do! Go ahead
    now say," that was different". Yes, the reason for hunting has been
    changed, game animals are not depended on as a food supply. It is
    mainly for recreation, the same as horse back riding. I never take
    more then my limit or kill more then I would eat. Hunting is needed
    to reduce game numbers. Sort of like thinning out the herd so all
    food supllies are not diminished. Has any one researched the deaths
    caused by horses, to humans. If you would take the time to do so,
    you may be suprised. And, would you believe it, some of them were
    caused by careless riders! Oh boy, that's it, all horse riding should
    be banned. There are some crazy riders out there! Okay, I'm back
    now. Do all of you see how ridiculous that sounds? Well, that's what
    the majority of you sounded like to me. Hunting and horses can co-
    exist. If we start turning against each other, me a horse owner and
    hunter, you a horse owner and non-hunter. We will only cause more
    harm than good, as I said before. I have many fond memories of both
    hunting and of watching my fiance compete with our horse. I refuse
    to give up EITHER one for the sake of a few un-educated and very
    biased people. As you can tell I can't argue very well on a terminal.
    No comments were meant to offend. Maybe just wake up! 
    
    
    
        Still a HORSE lover and a HUNTER!
                  Bob

    I am neither a hunter nor am I against it (I eat venison but I don't
    know how to shoot!) I just wanted to say that while riding I have
    come across both idiots (who, incidentally were drunk and fired
    a shot which lodged in the tree 6" above my head) and also some
    VERY considerate people who saw us coming and were careful to move
    to a place that would allow the horses to see them so the horses
    wouldn't spook. My feelings are that yes, there are some jerks out
    there (as in EVERY sport/hobby/whatever) and there are also people
    who are careful (again as in every pastime...) I make it a point
    to either trail ride on days where hunting is not allowed or ride
    in areas which are posted No Hunting or to make as much noise as
    humanly possible and wear bright clothing (you all should see some
    of the nauseating outfits I have come up with ;^))
    
    Happy rides and beware the cold here in New England!
    
    Linda

    I've thought about this for a while before I started the reply because
    I don't want it to be a flame vs flame volly.  I used to hunt until
    I felt that it wasn't safe to go out any more (I live in Mass).
    I didn't make that decision based on how I or anyone I knew hunted
    because I have never known a careless hunter, but...  that doesn't
    mean they don't exist.  It only takes one to spoil things for thousands
    of careful hunters.  My experience is based on what I know to be
    true in my area.  We have bought enough signs to post every foot
    of our property, yet the sings keep on disappearing.  I have found
    shell casings next to my fences.  The vet pulled a deer slug out
    of my neighbors pony last year.  A pony whose paddock at its furthest
    point from their house is 100 feet.  My point is that we shouldn't
    be throwing slurs at each other.  We should be working together
    to solve the problem because if it continues this way, someone will
    really get hurt and there won't be a rational solution, there will
    only be a final solution which no one will like.
    
    No flames intended
    
    Bob
                                                    

    	To Bob,,
    
    			BRAVO!!!
    
    		George
    

    I have been waiting also to respond to the comments concerning hunters
    versus riding.  I have been riding off and on for about 18 years
    and really enjoy the sport.  I also hunt but primarily up the northern
    part of New Hampshire.  One thing quickly comes to mind.  Up in
    the northern parts of New England, I would say that the majority
    of people are hunters.  There are large unpopulated tracts of land
    and most everyone hunts.  There are fewer people involved with
    equestrian sports also.  I do find that the tracts of land used
    for hunting are respected more by those who reside in the north
    country and there is a more sincere effort on the part of the hunters
    to respect the desires of the land owners who are very gracious
    to allow hunters to hunt on their property so long aS the hunters
    have first the common courtesy to request permission to hunt there
    and who also respect the belongings of others.  This would be also
    true if a rider would request the use of their fields to ride in.
    The rural New Englander may be conservative but they are also trusting.
    
    I do also notice that the landowners cringe when they see Massachusetts
    or Connecticut license plates for good reason.  I would say also that
    there are good reasons for this.  Many years of experience have taught
    them to beware of hunters from those states because of property damage 
    done by SOME of these people.  I believe that it is due to attitudes
    of TAKE don't GIVE which separate the rural New Englander from the city
    folk.  Some of you will scream that not all of us are like that, but
    we all fall prey to this approach to life in the BIG CITY and is
    some respect, WE ARE ALL GUILTY.
        
    Here in southern New England and especially in the more populated
    sections, there is a great disregard for the belongings of others.
    The pressure to seek out solitude and privacy builds while the
    availability of open spaces lesson.  I'm sure that if these conditions
    were to exist in the north country, the same types of problems would
    occur such as have been described previously.  You can't have your
    cake and eat it too.  If we were lucky enough to have people who
    cared for the concerns of others in these populated areas, we would
    be much better off.  The disregard for others is directly proportional
    to availability of open recreational areas.  I believe that hunting
    and horseback riding can co-exist but only when there is a respect
    for others, can that happen.  
    
    I appologize for being so blunt but I really feel that this whole
    scenario amounts to mixing oil and water.  THEY DON'T MIX.
    
    Denny
    

    	Ok, I'll jump in on this one also. Being from Colorado
    my opinion is almost certainly biased. I believe this is 
    problem that is more prevalent on either coast, due largely
    to population vs. terrain. 
    	Here it is considered (by most) that hunting via horseback
    is the only way to go. Try going 7 miles back in the Rockies
    on foot (wilderness areas, no vehicles allowed). Then try to
    get a 100 lb. elk out without horses!!
    	I agree there are a lot of bad hunters out there, much more
    than I used to believe or like to admit. However, I also think
    there are more problems with bad drivers, etc. in the highly
    populated areas.
    	I'm not sure what my point is except I feel safer in the 
    woods around here with the hunters than on the roads. I think
    it is very unfortunate that people don't feel safe on their
    own land. This is the first time I've heard of the gun club fees,
    I think that's great! One more point, in Colorado, the Game and
    Fish dept. is VERY strict on poachers and most people agree and
    like this attitude, myself included. Poaching bighorns carries 
    a 10,000 fine, period, no courts involved. I'm surprised about
    some peoples attitude about "it's only wildlife".
    	I took my Morgan/Quarterhorse hunting this year and had a 
    blast. (Didn't get any elk though.)
    
    						Steve
    
    P.S.- it's a tribute to the members of this conference to be able
    	to discuss this emotional of an issue without a lot of name
    	calling.  

    	Just re-read my note, elk weigh 1000 lbs, not 100.
    Also, a side note, I would support a stricter hunter
    safety course than most states have. A written test 
    and firing 5 shots does NOT demonstrate that an individual
    can properly handle a weapon. Perhaps a course in ethics is 
    in order?
    					Steve