Conference noted::equitation

    Susan, there are so many feed supplements on the market today, it
    takes a lot of research to see which one is right for your horse,
    or if he even needs it.  I used Source for a couple of years on
    my horse, and I really liked the results, especially how well it
    kept his hooves in condition.  I stopped using it because I moved
    to a barn that wouldn't take the time to put it in his feed, and
    I didn't really notice any difference in his condition that year
    compared to the previous years.  I evented and showed him and
    conditioned him the same way, and I didn't feel that he needed any
    supplements in order to perform better.  A couple of people feed
    Drive where I board now, but I can't say that their horses are in
    better shape or condition than without it.  Maybe some other people
    in this notes file have used other supplements that they can comment
    on.  The way I see it, if your horse is not fit, supplements are
    not going to make the difference.

    I did a couple of 20 milers last year with my 4 year old gelding
    and he had no problem (I had trouble sitting but that's beside the
    point!) He gets fed about 10 lbs. per day of pellets and sweet feed
    along with hay but no supplements and he conditions up extremely
    well and also maintains his condition nicely. I have thought about
    using supplements (Source) however decided that I would not use
    them until he was either not keeping up his condition. I guess I
    feel that why change things that don't seem to need changing?
    
    Good luck,
    
    Linda
    

    We don't have endurance horses, but we have used a few suppliments
    over the years.  By the way, our practices for feeding our somewhat
    similar to yours as pertains to the mix of hay and grain.  As the
    horse is conditioned, we add grain as needed to maintain body weight
    depending on the use.  Halter horses are shown with more weight
    than performance horses.  Since we ALWAYS feed free choice hay,
    it is up to the horse to regulate the amount but I have found that
    conditioned horses tend to eat less hay than unconditioned horses.
    Maybe they are less bored.  We use trotter pellets also but we add
    crimped oats in the summer with conditioning.  I like the crimped
    better because some of the 'hard keepers' don't take as much time
    to chew as they should, and whole oats come out the same way they
    went in unless they've been munched on.  Here's what we've used:
    
    Source      Great for adding weight and probably the best all around
                supplement we've tried.
    
    Calf Manna  Good for babies and pregnant/nursing mares.
    
    Sunshine    Same as calf manna.
    (Blue Seal)
    
    Dr Magee's  We use this currently for breeding animals (it has
                Selenium), and show horses.  Its made up for Dr Magee
                in Marlboro.
    
    Red Cell    Expensive but it is terrific for show horse coats and
                stamina.
    
    Clovite     Basically this is cod liver oil for horses.  It makes
                beautiful coats but beware of vitamin A overdosing.
    
    Soy Meal    Good for coats but little else.
    
    Grow Colt   Save your money on this one or if you have too much
                send some to me.
    
    Wheat Germ Oil  Shiny coats but not much else
    
    These are all personal opinions based on our use of these products 
    
    Regards,
    
    Bob
    

    I've used Source and Drive.  I began using supplements 'cause the
    mare I bought was in such rotten condition (especially hooves) that
    I wanted to give her a "boost".
    
    I have only good to say for the results of both products.  However,
    Drive is VERY expensive and you may or may not want to stay on it
    long because of the $$.  I found that Source was particularly good
    with coat and hoof condition, and Drive seemed to give the mare
    better stamina during stressful workouts.
    
    Good luck with whatever you try.  I tend to be from the school that
    says "Don't fix what ain't broke" though.
    
    Ann

    
    
    		i need some more advice here.........
    
    I have tried Source, i didnt see much change in my animal.
    
    A few years back I talked to a good friend that used to train
    a.q.h.a's at centential race track.he now a vet and breeds and
    show red angus.
    		he told me the source contains that same ingred.
    that mineral salt does, and is alot cheaper.
    	can anyone give me some more info.
    
    
    		anyone out there used clovite???  this is 
    another one i see the same as drive and calf mannana.
    
    wendy
    

    I have also used Source.  I noticed great results - with my horses
    that would eat it, that is.  It is hard for me to believe that it
    is the same as mineral salt... one of the main ingredients of Source
    is seaweed.  Thus, it smells gross.  I have one horse who eats around
    it.  She eats grain by grain, it seems - she leaves the Source in
    the bottom of the bucket.  Needless to say, I don't waste it on
    her anymore!
    
    Because of the condition of much of the farmland, supposedly the hay 
    does not contain as many of the trace minerals (even such elements 
    as gold!) as it used to, which is why Source may help.  I think the 
    trace mineral blocks just contain the more common minerals, while
    Source has a wider variety.  If your hay was grown on mineral-rich
    land, there's a good chance you don't need Source.
    
    I see supplements as sort of "insurance".  If you can't analyze
    hay every time you buy it, you don't know if it's deficient or not.
    If you feed a supplement, there is less chance that your horse's
    needs are not being met.  But just like with people, there is no
    substitute for a balanced diet.  With horses, you need to watch
    the Calcium-Phosphorous ratio especially.  Feeding a supplement
    that you know has the proper ratio can help correct an imbalance.
    Supplements remove some of the "guesswork" from feeding.

    I started using source and a different mineral block a couple of
    weeks ago.  There has been noticable improvement in the horses that
    are in heavy training programs.  I'm not sure which is the reason
    for this.
    
    In the past, I have used Calf Manna for youngsters.  My neighbor
    uses clovite for the same stock.  They are pretty much the same.
    
    As for Drive, I had a TB mare whose legs would swell a lot when
    fed Drive.  She did ok on calf manna, but after the first swelling
    episode I was scared to try anything new.
    
    The only advice I can give is to add whatever supplement slowly
    and don't mix them. Too much of a good thing and all that.
    
    maureen
    

    The department of agriculture here in Ohio will analyze your  hay
    for a nominal fee.  Some of the farmers here will give you a copy
    of this analysis if you ask for it.  Are other areas doing this
    too?
    

    I use source and Mineral salt, the horses are well rounded, 
    and I have only good reports from the Blacksmith on the hooves.
    I like what it did for my mare who had been thin over the
    summer, you can't say that now!
    
    -Marianne-
    

    re:  .5
    
    I've used clovite for broodmares that are nursing...other than that
    I don't feed supplements.  All my horses are fat and shinny and
    have good feet.....I really think it's personal preference to feed
    supplements or not (I prefer 
    not) but clovite is as good as any!

    
    
    	       the mineral salt that we were talking about is the kind
    that comes in the 50 lb bags.  he also said check the ingred.
    which i did also, however he said if you break those down, most
    of the [sea] minerals are found in the loose salt.  i dont know,
    does anyone have a list that i can check? label? of ingred.
    by the way our grain has salt added, however i dont know if shes
    getting enuf salt, she wont eat blocks, i even put themin the bucket,
    to encourage her but she pushes them around but thats not enuf
    for salt intake.
    
    		wendy
    

    Just another .02 comming up. I bought my young (3 yrs) mare in Dec
    and her feet were low so I started using SOURCE. I can see the
    difference in the hoof as it grows out and it looks lots better.
    The new growth is darker and smoother looking. 
    
    Also, one of the (horse dealer type) ladies where I board says CALF
    MANA is terrible for foals and should not be used. I don't know
    what her qualifications are for making that statement but she trains
    and sells some mighty nice looking horses. Anybody else heard this?
    Liesl

    re:  .12
    
    I sure would be interested in hearing her facts against Calf Manna
    for youngsters!
    
    

    I too would be interested in hearing what is wrong with Calf Manna
    for babies.  For the young foals, I personally prefer a milk-based
    product such as Start-to-Finish - but that is also expensive.  
    Carnation (who makes Calf Manna) just came out with a milk-based 
    product called Break Thru which is supposed to be its answer to
    Start-to-Finish; I don't know how it compares in price.  I had my
    nursing mare on Calf Manna and she did really well.
    
    I know that cattle have different requirements for supplements than
    horses - generally, their diet tends to be high in calcium, so cattle
    supplements are often higher in phosphorous.  For horses, the ratio
    should be between 1.5:1 and about 3:1 Calcium:phosphorous (I'm
    not as sure about the 3:1, but I am sure about the 1.5:1 on the
    low end).  I don't know what it is for cattle.  Maybe this could
    be why the woman thinks Calf Manna is not good for foals?

    I'll ask her about the Calf Manna when I see her and report her
    answer. She had a very definite bias against it. 

    In response to the question of Calf Manna for foals, there is sometimes
    a problem with using a high protien concentrate because of growth
    problems.  Everyone in the Arabian industry is trying to grow the
    biggest horses possible.  I have had seen cases of foals with
    contracted tendons as a result of too much feed too soon (at least
    thats what the vet believed).  I may not have caused the problem
    but it did exacerbate it.  I used to creep feed with a mixture of
    Calf Manna and Canter pellets but have gone back to using trotter
    pellets for creep feeding because of this.  I still use Sunshine
    (Blue Seals version) as a supplement for foals and lactating mares.
    
    Bob
    

I started using Super-14 (Farnum) about a year ago because my horse's
coat was dull and he had a serious case of dandruff! The Super-14
solved the problem (lots of fatty acids in it).

But about 4 weekends ago I put him on Source instead. I gave him his
first dose on a Saturday night, and all day Sunday he had terrible
diarrhea. But having read that Source changes the horse's ability
to digest and changes the consistency of the feces, I just kept
checking for dehydration but continued to feed the Source. Well, the
problem lasted only a day and now he's fine. The coat is still beautiful,
but I've had to cut his feed; he's been gaining weight like a little
pig.

I've also noticed that he's becoming more "petlike". He used to be a
jumpy ornery old soul. But lately he's been very interested in me, and
just generally seeks out company and contact whenever I'm around. (He
still nips as much, though.) I've heard that Source can improve their
personality. It's too early to tell what it's done to his feet, but
they used to chip like crazy, so I'm expecting them to improve based
on what I've heard.

-julie

    I am going to suggest at the next kickoff that some of our customers
    and salesreps (as well as sws managers) eat source.  It would do
    a lot to improve our working environment.  What do you think?
    

    (I like the idea of feeding the customers a little source) but back
    to Calf manna. I asked the lady that told me it was not good to
    feed it and she can't remember why but heard it a horseman's clinic
    at the Univ of Northern Colo. She also stated "Purina pays a roomful
    of PHDs to develop specialised horse feed so why should I use cow
    feed?"  
        
    This created quite a discussion at the barn since one of the trainers
    says she uses it all the time and her colts come out OK (and her
    spouse is a large animal vet who it seems should know). 
    
    re.17 - There was an article in Equus (I think Jan issue) on what
    supplements worked for foals and they found contradictory evidence
    from two large studies on what actually worked. One of the things
    they thought made a difference was that foals forced to early growth
    by use of too much supplements broke down in later life. This is
    as opposed to foals who had supplements but not to the extent of
    forcing too early growth. 
       

	Well, I would bet it's the sweet feed.  I have to keep a very close
	watch on my guy when he's fed sweet feed, it goes straight to his
	head.  If anything, when I had him on Source, he appeared to mellow
	(wishful thinking?).

	I'd cut the grain if he's not being worked.

					-Caroline

    My bet is on the sweet feed.  We had a mare that we could never
    give her sweet feed.  I assume it is like a sugar high with people.
    Someone out there would probably have the scientific reasoning.
    
    Good luck.
    

	Excerpts taken w/out permission from 'The Chronicle of the Horse',
Friday, August 30, 1991 article by Eleanor Kellon, VMD "The Way to Good Feet
is Through the Mouth" and the related article "Research Proves Biotin Works".

	...Biotin is one of the few supplements for promoting hoof growth
that has specific studies to support its use under controlled conditions...

	...The recommended amount of biotin to be fed is now 20 milligrams per
horse per day, which is higher than amounts initially used, so check
your labels carefully...

	... Biotin is an enzymatic co-factor (sometimes called vitamin H) that
is important to many aspects of hoof growth and quality, including amino acid
metabolism. Biotin also plays an important role in the synthesis of fatty
acids, the substances that make hooves supple and coats shiny...

	...Zinc, too, plays a critical role in the formation of healthy hooves
and a good coat. Inadequate zinc causes the white spots often seen on people's
fingernails. The current official recommendations for zinc levels for horses
are borderline aty best and probably far too low for breeding and growing
animals, and most performance horses. Buying a hoof-related supplement that
includes zinc is a wise decision...

	...Foot problems are not created overnight and can't be expected to
show significant improvement in days or even weeks. The horse's foot grows
relatively slowly in the best of circumstances. Allow 3 to 4 months on the
supplementation program before evaluating results...

	...Although rearely used in conjunction with hoof problems, selenium
(and vitamin E) is critical to proper metabolism of sulfur containing amino
acids. Selenium toxicity leads to alterations in hair and hoof growth. Similarly
deficiencies often appear as hoof growth problems...

                                             

    I think feeding supplements is on the increase.  I have fedmy horse
    on a multi vitamin supplement just so that I know he is getting all
    the necessary vitamins and minerals that he would probably not get
    from his pasture or hard feed.
    
    I am thinking of adding some "Red Cell" (I know the name is different 
    in the US, but can't remember what it is!) to his hard feed every day
    as I have heard this is a very good vitamin supplement, but its rather
    pricy.  Dose anyone use it and if so has it worked? or is it one of
    these marketing cons into spending money on supplements that dont
    really work?
    
    Wendy

	Hi,

	With so many electrolyte supplements on the market and so many
	labels to read, what brands do you use and why?

	Thanks in advance,

	Linda

We have just started using a supplement called PEMWOOD SUPREME.  We were
recommended this product by a couple of people high in the Tennessee Walking
Horse Biz.  It seems that the trainer's wife used to be a distributor and in
just 3 months did $18,000 worth of business - wholesale!

We are feeding Crimped Oats along with the supplement.  We have been told that 
after a time, we will end up cutting back on the crimped oats.  It is being
used quited heavily.  The bucket contains a 100 day supply for one horse.  For
a horse over 500 pounds, you would feed 2 ounces in the morning and 2 ounces in
the evening.  For a foal (such as our Sun's Maxfactor's Successor - Maxi), you
would feed 2 ounces daily.

I guess we will see some results within about a month or so.

Ed..

    Hello,
    
    I have a 21 year old TB that is being bred this year.  She is a very
    hard keeper and I have come across this supplement that I would like
    some input on.
    
    It is called  "Natural Glo" and is produced by Wolcott Farms, INC.  It
    is sold as a `High fat supplement for the performance horse'
    
    Here is the nutritional information:
    
    INGREDIENTS:
    Stabilized rice bran and germ with minimal amounts of carbohydrates
    from the rice kernel.  No calcium carbonate.
    
    GUARANTEED SPECIFICATIONS:
    Fat	   	       		20.6%
    Protein    	       		14.5%
    Total dietary fiber    23.0-30,0%
    Soluble fiber	       	 5.7%
    Ash				 7.6%
    Moisture			 5.0%
    Free fatty acids        Max. 4.0%
    E. Coli		     Negative
    Salmonella		     Negative
    
    NUTRITIONAL DATA PER POUND:
    Phosphorous			1.80%
    Sodium			 .04%
    Magnesium			 .70%
    Potassium			1.60%
    Calcium			 .05%
    Iron			 .01%
    Copper	       	   3.6 mg/lb.
    Selenium		   .05 mg/lb.
    Vitamine E		 441.8 mg/lb.
    Niacin		 52.10 mg/lb.
    Thiamin		  3.26 mg/lb.
    Riboflavin		  1.95 mg/lb.
    Beta Carotene	  1.79 mg/lb.
    Biotin		   .30 mg/bl.
    Amino Acids
    Lysine			 .88%
    Methionine			 .16%
    Tryptophan			.081%
    Valine			 .57%
    
    It is recommended to use 1lb per horse per day.  
    
    Virginia

    
    I don't have my product catalogs with me to do a comparison to any
    of the other supplements....
    
    I'll try to remember it tomorrow.....
    
    Lynne

    Thanks Lynne.
    
    We put the mares out on grass yesterday and I think they will be doing
    better.  They have about 15 acres to work on right now.  I am going to
    wait untill I can talk to my vet before I start using the Natural Glo.
    
    Virginia

    
    Here are a few, Virginia-
    
    (Note:  I am putting in what the Mfgr says about their product-
    This is not an endorcement for any of the following:)
    
    Foal-Lac Pellet - Equine milk supplement.  Excellent supplement for
    (PetAg)           mares & stallions.
    
    Horse Sho-GLo - a vitamin & mineral booster for peak condition during
    (Manna-Pro)     times of stress or growth.
    
    Stride - A complete feed supplement.  
    (American Superior Feeds) 
    
    Drive -           A unique protein supplement.  In addition, Drive provides
    (Diagnostic Data) a balance of vitamins and minerals, low calcium to
                      phosphorous ratio, digestive enzymes and guaranteed
                      levels of selenium.
    
    Equine Supreme Nu-life -    It provides macro and micro element levels
    (Pennwoods Equine Supreme) balanced from conception through lactation.
    
    Vita-plus  -  Meets the demands of today's equine athletes, show
    (Farnam)      horses, BREEDING stock and young growing horses.
    
    Mare-plus -  Rich in vitamins A, D &E as well as calcium, phosphorous
    (Farnam)     and iodine, M-plus helps build and condition your mares to meet
                 the demands of pregnancy. 
    
    HB-15  -  Contains biotin along with amino acids, lysine and methioine
    (Farnam)  which enhance the horse's ability to utilize the vegetable
              protiens in hay & grain.  Vitamin B6 aids in the metabolism
              of these amino acids.  Ideal for all horses, including foals,
              weanlings, pregnant and lactating mares.
    
    
     

    Has anyone tried Lixatinic?  My vet recommended it for my Thoroughbred
    mare (6 years old) - apparently it is a protein, iron, and mineral
    supplement.  She is slightly underweight and her hooves are dry and
    cracked.  I'm curious if it's similar to other supplements listed here
    such as Source.
    
    Dawn