Conference noted::equitation

    <set flame ON!>
    I don't know about the other Arab owners in this file, but I am 
    sick of seeing "high-strung" "flighty" and other derogatory terms
    so frequently applied to Arabian horses. 
    
    PLEASE acquire some knowledge about the different breeds before spreading 
    that ignorance, here and elsewhere.  I for one am sick of it.
    
    Before you attack me for being equally blind to the other breeds, let
    me tell you that I purchased my first Arabian after owning first
    several other horses of different breeds including, Standardbred,
    Morgan, and Quarter Horse.  All of those were wonderful trail, show
    and companion horses.  I just happen to prefer my Arabians.  That's
    my preference and I'm entitled to it - and I'd like other people to
    keep their prejudices to themselves.  Let's keep this file to spread
    knowledge and help one another...I thought that's what it was for.
    
    

    In defense of the base note author, as well as my own comment that
    my Standardbred is high-strung, it was probably not meant to be taken
    as a "derogatory" remark. I personally admire, and prefer, high-strung
    horses. I enjoy the challenge, and the never-ending entertainment
    provided by ownership of such an animal. Apparently the base-note
    author does not, and her comment referring to Arabs would appear to
    me to be more of a personal peference than an insult to the particular
    breed. I  know that when someone refers to my horse as being
    high-strung I have never considered it a degradation.
    

    >I don't know about the other Arab owners in this file, but I am
    sick of seeing high-strung, flighty and other derogatory terms so
    frequently applied to Arabian horses.
    
               0
    Sorry if I offended you with the high-strung comment, I personally
    find nothing derogatory about the term "high-strung", "flighty"
    yeah, that would be a negative term, but not one I used.
    
    Obviously, you received lots of negative feedback about Arabs. 
    I personally think they are absolutely beautiful horses, and I can
    say I've never seen was that I haven't considered fantastic looking.
     BUT, that doesn't mean I don't think they are "high-strung". 
    
    I happen to prefer appy's, I like horses of color, that's my preference
    just like you have, that doesn't make one right or wrong.  That's
    just what I like.
    
    There was no put down intended...
    
    Had I used Thoroughbreds or appy's instead, would someone else be offended,
    probably...
    
    Caryl 

    RE:  the last few
    
    I don't have nearly as much exposure to arabs as Gwen has had, but
    I understand her response.
    
    The problem with calling arabs "high strung" is that it is simply not
    true.  The arabs I've seen (maybe 2 dozen or so) have a temperament
    that spans the sprectrum from dead quiet to high energy.
    
    They are very much individuals and also I think a lot has to do with
    their type (ie. Polish vs Egyptian vs Russian and so on).
    
    Mary

    
    
    Kiirja, 
    
    Thanks for your input.  
    
    I too was keeping my mouth shut.  I have had Arabs for 30 years now (I
    started as but a tiny baby...).  
    
    And I do get tired of uneducated remarks about "Ayy-rabs".  After all
    this time, I tend to ignore the remarks and let my horses speak for 
    themselves by out performing or performing equal to the horses they are 
    around -- whether in open western shows, or hunting, or hunter shows, or 
    jumping, or dressage, or trail riding (endurance and competitive riding, 
    by the way, are dominated by Arabs and Arab crosses).
    
    And if that fails and someone keeps ranting and carrying on right in my
    face, I just remember 'you have to be smarter than the horse to deal 
    with it'   ;-) ;-) ;-) . 
    
    Mary Jo

    Mary Jo...
    Your last comment is right on.....THANKS and thanks to all that came to
    the rescue even though I realize that the base note wasn't meant to be
    said in a negative tone.
    
    Kathie
    

    
    
    	I have been reading the past few replies with great interest,
    	and would like to suggest that maybe the moderators would move
    	them to their own note - `Misconceptions About Breeds'
    	
    	There are so many knowledgeable people in this file, and between
    	us all we probably own just about every breed there is. The
    	purpose of this file is the share our knowledge and experience.
    	Like someone just said, it is the perpetration of incorrect
    	beliefs by horse people who should *know better* that cause
    	the most damage to the reputation of certain breed industries.
    	How often do we hear `high strung Arab', `peanut pushing Quarter
    	Horse', fire extinguishers = Morgans/Saddlebreds, or, my 
    	personal favorite which can be found right in this very file,
    	"I suggest you get a Walking Horse Bit for a runaway horse.
    	It's so severe it can stop anything!". (yes, I have a Walker, so I
    	am biased....)                                                
    
    	Sherry
                                                    
    	
                                            
    	

    Thank you for this note!!  Like the arab people, I get sick of
    hearing people put standardbreds and their owners/trainers down!
    I consider them to be an outstanding all around breed and wouldn't
    trade them or harness racing for anything!!  I think education is 
    the key here, people hear one misconception about a breed and that
    is the first thing that comes to their minds when that breed is
    mentioned.

    I've never heard it and can't even guess "peanut pushing quarter
    horse"? please explain - my guy is 1/2 quarter horse and I must be
    missing something.
    
    Dawn

    
    	Some Quarter Horses carry their heads almost level to their
    	withers. In order to accentuate this, trainers have tied a
    	horse with it's head straight up overnight. When it is untied,
    	it carries it's head even lower than level, hence the name
    	peanut pusher, as in the game where you push a peanut along
    	the ground with your nose....

    O.K. I will be blasted from folks I know but I was told to check out
    this file...
    
    I have to laugh...I have several of the MULE HEADED APPALOOSA's and as
    you can see I do not take care in what others say about the breeds. My
    appy's may be mule headed but I do not see them that way. I have in my
    30 some odd years of having horses and being in 4-H and what everelse
    have had lots of breeds and "types" of horses.
    
    I too do not believe the original noter was tring to CUT up the arab's
    of this world or any other breed. She was just trying to discribe
    her type of horse and in her best words that was what she needed to
    do it.
    
    I have writen to the notes file in the past and have received the same
    BEATING she or he is receiving now from all you folks.
    
    This is a notes file I thought to help out others and NOT to make them
    feel bad about a MISS USE of words.
    
    I feel bad for this person and they may or may not ever write again....
    that was one reason why I stopped and ONLY write in to the horse for
    sale or tack for sale...or horse show/events file now. I do not
    want to be torn apart due to a miss use of words to try to discribe a
    situation or event or ANIMAL.
    
    By the way...one of my MULE HEADED APPY'S  is also like an AIR HEADED
    thoroughbred....and he drives me nuts. Some days I could shoot him.
    
    terry
    
    ps...have fun folks with this one...I am use to it now!!!!!!

    
    
    I total agree with note #12.  

    Well, this notes file brings to mind an old running fight
    in the Practical Horseman.  Katherine Lindsey MFH/Contributor Writer to
    that magazine made the mistake of using a derogatory word to describe
    some breed or another and Practical Horseman was able to get at least 3
    issues out of it.  I laughed then and have to admit, I'm laughing now. 
    I think everyone out there knows more than one breed, has favorites,
    and uses generalizations to get a point across, not to insult anyone.
    
    I laughed at the peanut pushing remark; cringed at the description of
    how to attain it.  My horse is 1/2 TB and 1/2 quarter horse.  There's a
    lot said about both breeds.  However, before I bought him he had been
    seriously abused.  He's talented and beautiful (hey, he's mine!) and
    does have the qualities of the "air headed" TBs as well as the
    "level-headed, good natured" quarter horse.  However, he has a
    background.  I for one know that if I tied his head anywhere for a
    night, the qualities of neither breed would come out -- the background
    of abuse would.  His head would be tied for one night, I'd be dead the
    next day.  That's life; that's my horse and I love him anyway.
    
    Terry, don't give up writing because of "flames" -- we all have bad
    days.  By the way, where were you Sunday?  You didn't stop in the food
    booth.
    
    Dawn

    
    
    I always like the one they say about appy's :*}
    
    "why did the indians ride appy's ??" 
    
    cuz its the only horse they could catch :*}
    
    i personally like quarter horses and although all horses are beautiful
    to me..
    
    later
    
    		wendy o'
    
    
    		wendy o'
    

    
    I recently was witness to an incident at a show here in Ireland which I
    thought very unfair.
    
    A girl came out of the Working Hunter ring in tears after doing a good 
    jumping round and a nice show piece only to be sent to the end of the line.
    When asked what the matter was she said that the judge had told her
    that since her pony was an Arab and not a hunter  he was unable to
    consider it for judging.
    
    In Ireland Arabs are a minority breed and hence are not catered for
    individually so I feel that this was severe to say the least.
    
    
    I'm sure Arab's were used for hunting something in their Native
    environment if not Foxs maybe invaders out of Kuwait!!!
    	
    
    			Gareth

                RE: 12
    
                I couldn't have said it better myself!  I too am
    mostly read only because of people jumping all over my case
    if I just happen to not write exactly what they want to hear.
                Blast away.........
    
                    Bob

    Re .16 Gareth - 
    If the class is a Breed Class - which we do have here, Arab/Morgan/ 
    Anglo-Arab etc. I can understand the judge's action, although it would
    seem harsh.  So in Ireland is Hunter a breed?  In Mass shows the Hunter
    classes are open to any horse, and hunter is thought to be a style of
    riding and jumping.  No US judge I know would do this.   If there is a
    breed called Irish Hunter (haven't I heard of this?) and the class were
    restricted to that breed, then maybe the judge was justified, otherwise
    it is simply snobbish to refuse to judge an Arab on the same hunt-seat
    criteria as all the other horses in the class.

    re:.14 
    
    Hi Dawn
    
    I was at Sunshine on sunday morning.....we had a horse showing. I came
    over to the food booth a few times and talked to the Rodier's and Jack
    and I was told they were all set. I also brought for 8:00 ....$8.00
    worth of Donkun donets (sp) with me.....I hope they all sold.
    
    
    terry

	What breed of horse do I want?

	Hum, whatever breed will:
	
	have 3 good working gaits,
	stand nicely on the cross ties,
	trailers well,
	doesn't bite, kick, rear, buck, bolt (unless unusual circumstances)
	is sane on the trails,
	is willing to work (has a volunteer attitude),
	jumps nicely (xc or hunter type courses),
	can do a decent dressage test,
	is good in the pasture,
	is fun!
	etc.
	
	Gee, did that help clarify which breed??? :^)

re: 1483.22 (ASD::MCCROSSAN)


>>	Gee, did that help clarify which breed??? :^)


Yup, sure sounds like a Arabelgiconafiorholsamorgabredquartaoosa to me! :-)

Ed
              

    
    
    re .12
    
    I thought it was
    
    stubborn as a quarterhorse
    hot as a thoroughbred
    dumb as a warmblood
    silly as a saddlebred
    
    and mean as a pony
    
    but yeah I like'm all
    
    Nancy
    
    PS - The sterotypes work both ways - Gentle gentle, sensitive
    thoroughbred etc!
    

    
    
    RE: .15  This is not meant to offend, just another example of breed 
    	     sterotyping.
    
    
    Why did the Indians always ride Appaloosas to battle?
    
    
    Because they wanted to be good and mad when they got there.
    
    Pat
    
    

    
    I've had a lot of fun reading this - though I rarely write, I
    couldn't resist!  I rode in Belgium and West Africa for a few years,
    then when the family returned to the U.S., we opened a riding stable
    for a few more.  I don't think there are any breeds in Europe or
    the U.S. that we haven't ridden, worked around and taught on.  What
    was always amazing to me was the **attributes** we needed in that
    environment that every breed has, and can contribute.
    
    Some examples:  KEMTONE - a 17 hand appy (hence the name) that had
    a big old jughead, with rather unattractive pink eyes - would carry
    even a tiny child through a hunt course as safe as houses.  Had big
    rolling gaits so even large fences felt just like an extension of
    his natural way of going.
    
    DRIFTWOOD - a flea-bitten, rat-tailed gray t'bred.  So sensitive in
    the mouth that a ham-fisted rider would make him rear, but gaits
    and heart smooth as silk, and jumped like a bird.  A dream to work
    around on the show groud, as he LOVED all the activity.
    
    DEXTER - 25 year-old saddlebred, 17.1h - snippy and jittery around
    men, but taught most of our "kids" how to jump, then took them to
    a show a won them a ribbon.
    
    SHAWNEE - a 13.3h Connemara pony.  Could jump 5 feet with me on
    his back (5"10" and 150 pounds), but too "hot" for the kids to
    ride - GREAT for a hot-shot rider who loved his heart and courage.
    
    The list goes on - we had 56 horses our second year, all different
    breeds, and a lot of no-breed, jest hoss.
    
    One last I must mention from Brussels.  I rode Sandy (short for
    Sandwich, 'cause he was bought from a baker) in my first world-
    class open jumping.  He started life pulling a baker's cart,
    and ended a show jumper.  As a scared 14-year-old, he carried
    me through a lot of fences - I remember them as BIG, and between
    classes the kids used to lead him around in halter giving bare-
    back rides to the littler kids.
    
    Diana - who loves them all, and whose dream is to have one of those
    gorgeous Budweiser horses in her own barn.
    

    Thank you Terry....I'm the original noter who started this whole
    mess!!!  You are right, did I ever feel blasted for something that
    was miscontrued.  
    
    AND, you are also right, people have a tendency to misinterpret
    others written words.
    
    I also own a MULE HEADED APPALOOSA and I wouldn't trade him for
    the world.
    
    Thanks for the response.
    
    Caryl (female)

    RE:  1483.25
    
    Your joke gave me the giggles...
    
    That was a good one.
    
    Karen

    I AGREE TOO ON THE APPY JOKE...IT REMINDS ME OF MY LICENSE PLATE 
    ON MY TRUCK....
    
                              APPALOOSA
    
                             GET SPOTTED
    
    TERRY

    Webster's  Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary
    
    Page 99:
    
    Ara*bi*an horse \e-ra-be-en\ n (1737) 1: a horse of stock used by the
    natives of Arabia and adjacent regions 2: a horse of a breed noted for
    it's graceful build, stamina, intelligence, and spirit - called also
    Arabian
    
    Can anyone in this conference honestly say that they have *never*
    referred to a horse of any breed type as a:
    
    	"<wacky, flighty, deadhead...> <Thoroughbred, Arab, Appy...>"
    
    Let he who is without sin cast the first stone *;^)
    
    And let's not take ourselves *toooo* seriously

    If you had heard what I called my horse this past Sunday
    at his *first* show,... :-)

    Hi All!   Between my mother and I we have 1 MULE_HEADED (but sweet)
    Appy and 2 TOTALLY UNPREDICTABLE AND AIRHEADED Thoroughbreds!!!
    And we love it!
    
    I know I don't get offended at all when people call my Whim names,
    I just laugh!  Most of the others at the barn couldn't believe that	
    I wanted to ride this horse, saying he was dangerous, and 'oh...
    be careful, he's so unpredictable!'  they call him killer, and
    spaz, etc....but of course this made it more exciting for me!
    So, now I've been riding him for 3 months, and he has calmed down
    alot, and seems to really enjoy trail riding (as opposed to the
    thousands of shows he's been too).   He found his nitch! And the 
    name calling is getting less and less......;-)
    
    Caroline
    

    
    	re .34 - when I `started' this topic, my intent was to
    	help enlighten (or help us to help enlighten) others 
    	about equine `myths' and fallicies...If you want to focus
    	your concern on `REAL' problems, then go to HUMAN_RELATIONS
    	or something. Real problems are people who won't associate
    	with a Morgan owner because they have pre-assumed that they
    	torture their horse with a fire extinguisher. Don't belittle
    	the fact that there are people out there who perpetrate stories
    	about breeds, causing ongoing misconceptions that shouldn't
    	exist in the first place. 
    
    	Sherry
    

    There are many forms of prejudice....towards humans AND animals.
    While some may not think it is very important when it pertains
    to animals, there are many of us (myself included) that think
    "equal rights" for animals is just or almost as important as
    those for humans.  This can include product testing on animals
    all way to being refused to be considered worth being judged
    in a show (that the participant has *paid* for).  I have been
    told many times to my face that I am weird (some used worse
    descriptive words) for having and loving cats, horses, and
    some of the other pets I have had in the past....
    Yes, it hurt when someone said something like this, whether
    out of spite, ignorance or whatever.  However, I intend to
    continue to have my many pets, and do my best to educate those
    who *want* to be educated.....
    
    Lynne

    Wow, this note has taken a totally new tack. I apologize if I lead you
    all to believe that I think that animal abuse is acceptable and that
    it's o.k. for a vet not to treat a horse because of it's breed. I had
    never heard such a thing until I just read it in one of the replies.
    Or that laboratory testing on innocent animals is moral, no that was
    not my intent.
    
    I myself have a managerie of animals that get higher priority care than 
    the humans in my household (well almost always *8^). 
    
    And people think I am crazy to spend all of the money and time that I 
    spend on them. I hear it all the time.
    
    The point is, that is THEIR problem, not mine. We shouldn't take the
    intentional, or unintentional ignorant remarks of others so seriously.
    They obviously don't know what they are talking about.
    
    I do apologize if I offended anyone.

    re 1483.35
    
    I had heard once of a vet who wouldn't treat "small" horses.  I laughed
    hysterically thinking of course it was a joke.  However, I saw
    for myself that this vet wouldn't come out if the horse was
    under 16.0; my horse is 16.2 and I think I was angrier than
    my friend who's horse was 14.3 and who this vet refused to
    treat.  However, her horse is also an Arabian and I now wonder
    if that was the real reason.  Needless to say, no one I know
    will now use that vet or even mention his name without turning
    purple.
    
    For the person who thinks this is a silly note in light of real world
    problems; if you need a vet in an emergency and he won't come because
    your horse is an Arab, let me know if you are thinking at that moment
    about fair housing! [flame off]
    
    

    I know of one hunter/jumper stable that refuses to board Arabians.  
    I'm sure there are many others.
    
    Mary

    I recently saw an ad for a stable that only boarded geldings. No
    mares or stallions. I'd never heard of such a thing!
    
    Talk about wiping out 50% of your customer base!
    I don't think being 'Horse Prejudice' can be very profitable for
    a professional. I'm sure it hurts them in the pocketbook.
    
    Sharon S

    Well, maybe they have their reasons.  Maybe they have a breeding
    stallion, and don't want mares around full time to drive him crazy.  My
    guess is that geldings might make up more than 50% of the population,
    too.  They are more popular with many people; lots of folks just don't
    like mares.  So where are the mare?  Maybe on breeding farms?
    
    I can *certainly* understand why they don't want stallions!  I just had
    mine gelded after 7 years of using him for breeding.  They are not your
    average horse.                                           

    
    
    	If it's the barn (ad) I called, the owner thinks that it
    	just keeps things quieter. I don't believe the owner owns
    	any horses, they just run the barn as a boarding facility. 
    	They feel that they can afford to be `picky', because they
    	don't really care if they keep the barn full or not. (must
    	be nice not to have to worry if there's enough $$$ coming in!)
    	I think they also said something about it makes it easier 
    	to match up `turnout buddies' and less horses get kicked in
    	the field. 
    
    	Sherry
    

    
    Just thought I'd add to the discussion on Arabs - being situated in
    Arizona and living in Arab/Quarter horse world I've seen some georgeous
    horses!  In Scottsdale, I have seen Arabs that took my breath
    away.  As for disposition - my neighbor has Arabs and they pack the
    kids around as safely as any other breed.  They have a lovely young
    mare that is well-behaved and wins consistently at the shows (with
    children riding her).  And the eldest gelding doesn't mind giving
    cabbage patch dolls a ride (sans halter - it's really cute to watch).
    
    On a sadder note, I've seen too many abused horses out here.  Since so
    many people own horses, I wonder how many people really know how to
    care for them.  Another neighbor (not the one with the Arabs) just
    leaves the horses in small pens and never checks on them.  They aren't
    fed enough and are extremely thin.  I worry about their automatic 
    waterers springing a leak and being without water in 120 degree heat.
    Last week they did have one die - I don't know why.  I confronted them
    once for leaving the horses tied to the fence all day with no water 
    (in August - our hottest month) - their reason was to keep the horses
    clean for a parade.  They also insulted me with profanity and stated
    that "they're only horses".  The Humane Society only removes animals 
    in grossly negligent situations.  Since this incident I've found all
    sorts of stuff in my pasture - beer cans, arrows etc.  I have to put up
    a privacy fence in order to avoid watching these poor animals suffer
    (and to keep my horse safe).  Sorry to get off the subject ...
     
    	Janice 
    

    Two arabs, opposite ends of the spectrum.  Heineken (I didn't pick the
    name) is a gelding and obviously didn't see much outside the show ring
    in his first four years.  He is keyed up when on the trail and I have
    walked home more than once when we parted ways in an unplanned manner. 
    One time even put me in the hospital.  But I push it and he has come a
    ways.  Now when we ride in the woods at dusk, every exhale is a snort
    but he keeps his head.  Crosses water too....Perserverence pays.
    
    Jzetah, a colt at twenty months, takes everything in stride.  Deep
    water, mud, pheasants in the brush, dogs, cars, motorcycles, the
    tractor.  His sire, Portico, was supposed to be like that. Maybe its
    inherited.
    
    /bob

    	Just before Christmas we bought a 16 year old Arab gelding and
    before this we have always had Q/H or Morgans.  The person we bought
    him from said he was great on the trails and arena, but we have not 
    experienced that yet.  On the trail he is a nervous wreck with tail
    twitching, snorting, pranching all the way home, diarhea.
    	Everyone we ask says this is typical Arab behavior.  Is this true
    and can he be reschooled from these bad habits after having them for
    16 years?  He is at the point of being dangerous & we would like to
    know if this is Arab typical behavior or if he had to acquire it?
    	He also was left a stallion till he was eight years old. His
    name is Nafar but I call him NUTBAR for good reason.  This is my
    wife's horse and she only has one kidney and the jarring from the
    prancing is really rough on her.  We have lost two horses in the last
    year, one from internal injuries from colt bearing that we bought her
    with and our 38 year old morgan died of colic 2 weeks after being in
    a Christmas parade.
    	My wife gets attached to these horses like children and we thought
    we had made a good purchase but we're not too sure now.  I also have
    purchased a black breeding stock paint mare from the same fellow and
    she has turned out to has osteo-arthitis in her back hocks at only 8
    years of age we are frustrated and broken-hearted.  
    	Any answers would be appreciated.  
    
    	Frustrated & Brokenhearted in Southern California,
    		Ralph & Kathy Black

Ralph,

First let me say "Arabs are not all crazy"!  I can simplfy with you very 
much.   I *was* an Arab hated for years, I lumped them into a category
along with Rotwiler and Pit Bulls, that is until I fell in love w/one.

I have meet some stupid/crazy and down right horrible QH, Pintos, Morgans
and hinze 57's.  I don't think the Arabs have the corner on high-strung
or any other verb for that matter. It all depends on how they were
raised and treated from the start, and what kind of experience they have
had or have not had.

Just, look at the Denver Bronco's new mascot.. a Arab Stallion who
runs out into the field at each touch down...he's as calm as day.  I
can give you many examples of Sane Arabs..and I can give you many 
examples of un-sane ones to....it all depends!

Maybe, your new horse needs time to get used to things around him?  How
many trails has been one before you got him?  Has he ridden with other
horses before?  All this may be new to  him?? How was he when you
wife looked at him the 1st time?

Arabs, are very aware of change and are very atune to everything around
them..they are alot like a cat and very curious.  Some people take this
as spooky, but is most (not all) I find it just what it is Curious.

I don't know your horse so I can't give you advice on why he is acting
up...but it's not because he is was born an Arab.

Good Luck, keep us posted on him and you.

Louisa

    I think you need to find a reputable trainer to work this horse and
    give you an evaluation on it.  It may not need much training, but I
    think you should have the horse evaluated.  It may be a horse with a
    much hotter "engine" than you're used to - and that can be dangerous if
    you're not able to cope with it or want to cope with it.  You may find
    that this behavior is just the horse's natural temperament.  Do you
    know its parents?
    
    Since the other horse has something physically wrong, are you sure this
    horse isn't sick with something giving it diarrhea?  Horses do develop
    ulcers - rare but they do if they've been stressed.  This horse may
    have an irritable bowl syndrome from something else going on.
    
    A good trail horse should go calmly down the trail and be a pleasure to
    ride.  Or at least be a horse you're willing to work with but because
    you *choose* to work with it.
    
    Arabs may be curious but the behaviour you're describing *is* dangerous
    and is beyond the bounds of curious.
    
    I would question (in fact, I aleady am) the honesty of who you bought
    these horses from.  You should have been informed about he
    osteo-arthritis in the other horse.  Did you have a vet check with
    x-rays?  If you did, and the condition of the sale was only if the
    horse was healthy, I'd be demanding my money back.  I don't know the
    laws in CA. and if you didn't get a vet check or have this agreement,
    you may be stuck.
    
    It sounds like you got stuck - one can only hope you didn't pay too
    much money for them.  
    
    On the other hand, take comfort in this, probably most of us in this
    file have bought the wrong horse(s) for any number of reasons with
    varying degrees of $$$ outgo on it.
                                                                 

    I've been down the "all arabs are nuts rathole" too many times to take
    the bait this time.  I'm really sorry that you got took so badly on 
    this deal.  And I think that's exactly what happened.  If I were you
    I'd take the horse back to the seller and get my money back.  I would
    not be inclined to spend my hard earned money on a trainer for a 16
    year old horse.  
    
    If you really feel compelled to spend money on a trainer, hire one as
    a consultant to help you find a horse you can ride.  Then, when you 
    find one, get a vet check before you buy it.  
    
    And don't give up on Arabs!  They are wonderful horses!  In fact, I
    would recommend looking for an older gelding...when you find the right
    one the wait will have been well worth it!
    
    Ask here for help too...there's lots of people with lots of experience
    just waiting to help out.
    
    gwen
    

    I'll second Gwen's thoughts and add this: I can categorically state
    that I have never been on or around an Arab that didn't have an
    outstandingly positive disposition. If you have one that's a nut case,
    it was made that way and you may have been taken by the seller. The
    other possibility is that the horse isn't nuts but is acting up out of
    pain from an ill-fitting saddle or something like that.

    Is this a sudden change in the horse's behavior? How did he behave when
    you tried him out per-purchase? I agree with the previous
    noters...Arabs are wonderfully dispositioned horses in general, strong
    with a lot of stanima and energy, the top choice of endurance riders.
    Is he getting plenty of turnout? Could he be badly herdbound and is
    trying to get back home to his stablemates? Have you had a recent
    change in tack that could be causing him discomfort? If you can find
    no reason for this sudden change in behavior, I'd have a vet examine
    him to be sure there is no physical cause....and if he was like that
    when you tried him out but the previous owner said it was 'not usual',
    then I'd be more careful with your next purchase.  You could try some
    professional training, but if this is just his nature, it may or may
    not help.  16 is not 'old' enough to give up on, many older horses
    begin new careers as trail horses after years of showing, etc, but
    you'll probably want a pro opinion before making the decision whether
    to make the effort/investment in training or not.
    
    Good luck!
    

    First I'd like to thank everyone for all your reponses, I'm really new 
    to notes game(boy, this is handy) and we really appreciate all your
    input.  
    	I thought I'd give you a little more background on where we are
    boarding and the horses.  We are boarding the each horse in a 24X24
    stall with connecting shelter.  They are on a 550 acre ranch with
    two ponds, 4 lighted areas, and miles & miles of trails.  There are
    alot of obsticles to riding like heavy equipment (which doesn't
    phase either of them) peacocks & ducks (they are both use to now) and
    some lose dogs which may be part of Nafar's problem, he doesn't like
    dogs at all.  It seems that anyime we are out and anything upsets him
    makes him snort and nervous from that point on there is no dealing with 
    him, he is uptight from that point on.
    	The fellow we purchased him from said he used to trailer him out
    for overnight rides so we are thinking that maybe he's just not sure of
    what to expect from my wife.  The fellow we bought him from was about
    6' 3" and 230 lbs and my wife only weighs aroung 100 lbs. so he's used
    to a lot more weight behind the ques.
    	The paint mare we bought has been Nafar's stallmate for 4 years but
    whether we take her out with him or not doesn't seem to matter that
    much.  He has been riden on these trails out here for 3-4 times a week
    since December when we got him.  He seems to be much more settled in
    the arena which is the only place my wife test rode him.  We didn't
    have a vet check done right because our Vet had just quit practicing
    and we were in the process of finding a new one.  My wife plans on
    having her dressage instructor ride Nafar on the trail and see what she
    thinks can be done with him. 
    	The osteo-arthiritis was not dianosed until last month, the fellow
    that sold us these horses was moving to Arlington, Texas and his vet
    said she only had a capped hock.  He told me if it turned out to
    something worse to get ahold of him and he'd make it good so I have
    written him a letter and am awaiting a reply but we are really
    questioning his honesty at this point also.
    	As far as Nafar's parents, I'll input that this evening after I get
    home from the ranch and I'll let you know how this evenings ride went.
    
    	Thanks again for all the input and keep it coming,
    
    			Ralph & Kathy Black

     	Nafar's sire was Arbe Lel Nafar and his dame was Bonita Nina and he
    was foaled in Irvine CA. He has great ground manners and he loves
    people.  We don't want to give up on him.
    	We are going to be putting them each in a 24X40 stall to give them
    a little more space.  The ride we took this evening was really great,
    no pranching & very little shying but there were no dogs and my wife
    was using her original Crosby saddle instead of the Stubben she rode
    him with the other day and there was no tail switching either.
    	So you all do not think we are completely insane...It would take a
    book to tell you what we went through just to get two "trail" horses!
       We wnt through two years of horrible health problems with our former
    mare.  We finially had to have her put down due to her being so
    over-bred, the scare tissue had almost closed off an essential part of
    her gut from what the autopsy showed, towards the end she was down more
    often then she was up, even our vet was stumped.  Even though we only
    had her two yrs. we loved her very much, and it was so painful to put
    her down ar 18.
         When we started out to buy new horses this guy had such complete
    health records on Jamie & Nafar, and Nafar had NEVER been sick in the 8
    years he had him that is actually what sold us.
         We wnt through 4 vet checks on four other horses, none of them
    passed and my instructor was helping us and these two horses together
    cost less then any one of the others.  We simply wanted two healthy
    horses to love and pleasure ride and we found so much dishonesty that
    Nafar's former owner seemed like he truely cared about these horses.  I
    know, "You get what you pay for" but Nafar and Jamie are sweet,
    BEAUTIFUL horses, and they really were not cheap (for us)  We are not
    quitters so we will give it some time.  Hope I haven't boared you to
    tears with our sad but true story.
         Any more info.  Welcome...And I agree Arabs are beautiful and
    smart.
    		THANKS,
    		  Ralph and Kathy Black.

    When I mentioned training a couple of notes back - I didn't mean
    (because someone disagreed with me) *years* or *months* of expensive
    training.  If (this is the big if), this horse is basically trained
    well and is sound, it probably needs more of a tuneup.  As you are
    discovering, there are a lot of dishonest people out there (I think
    they are in any profession, but our hearts tend to rule our heads when
    it comes to horses).  If you can find a good trainer, who understands
    horse physcology and is humane, a couple of months would probably do
    wonders for you and the horse.  Ideally, you should both work together
    with a trainer.
    
    In my experience, a good trainer won't mind if you watch them work your
    horse.  Of course, if some big disobedience happens, you must be
    tolerant of watching them correct it too.  But there is correcting and
    correcting.  You don't want someone to soft or too harsh.  I think 16
    years isn't too late *if* the horse is not really a fruitcake and is
    sound.  For many people, that can be the ideal age of a horse for
    people who are kind of starting out with all this.
    
    I still think you need professional help, because you do not want to
    get hurt with this horse.  That will not only hurt you physically but
    damage you emotionally when it comes to riding this horse again or
    maybe any other horse.
    
    Are there any trainers our there that you have faith in?

    	We really know that having some professional help will really
    effect the outcome of Nafar and my wife's ability to cope with him.
    	Let me tel you another little thing that happened to us last year
    around May, we decided to buy this other horse and on the second day of
    trying him out, we road in the arena and then took him out back with my
    wife riding her mare that died last August and we were also trying a
    new bit on him.  Everything seemed fine until we got within a 100 yds
    of putting him up and for some reason he went completely bonkers and I
    tried to stay with him but riding with a Lane Equitation cutback
    saddle, I had nothing to hold on to.  So I was thrown and the way I
    landed on my left side I broke my back in 4 places (4 out 5 of the
    spurs that hold muscles to the vertibre were broke) needless to say I
    was out of work for 6 weeks and still have quite a bit of back pain.
    I'm still riding but it gets pretty spooky for me sometimes, I don't
    want that to happen again.  I carry around with me the reminder of what
    can happen and I am told I must build up my abdomen muscles so I can
    still stand erect later in life.  So we do know how people can get
    hurt.  It could have been a lot worse, I wasn't wearing a helmet and
    could have hit my head or landed differently on my back and be
    paralyzed today.
    	We are both very cautious.  I am going to start driving instead of
    riding after I get my horse & myself some training.
    		Thanks for the input and keep it coming,
    				Ralph

    I GUESS ALL ARABS AREN'T CRAZY
    
    
    If anyone is interested, we took Nafar off Yucca and he is good as
    gold, we were feeding him the Yucca just because we gave it to Jaime
    for her arthritis.  Thanks for all your responces before this was moved
    to the back of the pack.
    		Thanks,
    		  Ralph & Kathy Black

    As everyone here seems to know a fair bit about Arabs, I thought I
    might ask your opinion.....my mare is kept with three geldings, one of
    them being an Arab.  He's about 19/20 years old and is a miserable
    crotchety old man!!  He is on loan to a 17 year old girl who does very
    gentle hacking (walking and trotting only) and who puts alot of her
    friends and family who can't ride on him to have a go.  He has got more
    and more miserable since she got him and always has his ears back ready
    to lunge at you.
    
    When she puts his saddle on he sinks down to the ground, obviously to
    avoid the weight, he has had his back checked and the saddle checked
    yet he still does it.  Now I won't go near the animal as I don't like
    him and he has put me off arabs completely, I have a mare who can be
    bad tempered in season but I'd never avoid going up to her!!!
    
    When I've ridden this old boy on the few occasions he has had life in
    him and wants to go.  The vet said to take it easy because of his age
    but if he is still keen and wants to go then let him, IMHO I feel that
    a:  He has some kind of problem with his back or that area - I doubt if
    he sinks down for the sake of it, and..
    b:  He is not being used to his potential and although old, he still
    has life in him (to a certain extent) and is thoroughly bored and p***d
    off with having novices and total beginners on him (I know I would be).
    
    Anyway, enough waffling, as you noters seem to know a fair bit about
    Arabs I would be grateful for your input.  (How old do they live to by
    the way??)
    
    Thanks in advance
    
    Liz

    
    	Hi Liz.. I'm not sure what you're seeing is an "arab" thing...
    rather a behavior.  It is possible that since this horse has been
    checked and his equipment has been checked that he IS ok   
    
    			BUT!
    
    	It could be several things..  he still hurts..  or he doesn't
    hurt but he *thinks* it is going to because it use to.
    
    	I use to have a horse who 'tied up' and for many months after
    he recovered he was always nervous that it was going to hurt when we
    did almost anything.  So I just worked really hard on convincing him
    that it wasn't going to hurt.  Started with daily brushing and being
    VERY gentle to his back - making it feel good instead of having him
    always waiting for the pain to start.  Worked up to riding with a VERY
    lightweight rider just walking around the yard and gradually as he
    accepted and realized we got back to real work.
    
    	Today this horse is used as a field horse for a guy who takes folks
    hunting and fishing in the Maine woods and he WORKS for a living and he
    loves what he does!  And they love him.  He's been sound ever since.
    
    	The crabbiness you see him display might just be him, or it might
    have been learned also because it was the only way for him to tell
    people that he hurt.. and he's still afraid of the pain.
    
    	Probably not what you were looking for - and only my experience but
    maybe worth a thought.
    
    	Good luck - holly
    
    

    That's not the Arab in him, it's just *him*.  Any horse of any breed
    can have a bad personality, or a bad past history, or a sore back.
    Please don't knock Arabs or any other breed based on your experience
    with one individual, it's just plain unfair.  I've know some wonderful
    Arabs, some nasty Arabs, and some wonderful and nasty horses of many
    breeds.  This horse sounds like he is tired and being treated rather
    unfairly by his owner, perhaps with different treatment he'd be a
    horse you would enjoy.  And 19/20 is not so old as to limit the horse's
    usefulness if he is sound and healthy, I do distance riding with a 19
    year old mare who is strong and quick and absolutely up to it. My vet
    assures me that as long as *I* keep up with her, keep her in shape and
    provide a little extra TLC, she'll continue on just fine. So don't
    blame this horse's breed or his age!
    

    I absolutely agree that this does not sound like an "Arab thing".  It
    sound more like a bad personality resulting from a problem.  Poor
    riding style can definitely cause a horses back to become sensitive and
    their usual response to that is to lower their back, instead of
    raising it which is what proper style will produce.  It would be my
    guess that having so many beginner riders on the horse has resulted in
    a physical problem and the only way the horse has to convey this is to
    react negatively.  
    
    There probably is not much you can do about this since it is someone
    elses horse but if the seventeen year old has more than just basic
    riding skills and is not causing the problem herself.  It may be
    helpful to point out your observations and recommend she keep the
    beginners off the horse for a while to see if there is any improvement.
    
    I have also found that a western saddle usually bothers a sensitive
    horse less than an english saddle mainly because the area it covers on
    the horses back is larger, dispursing the weight over a larger area,
    whereas some english saddles concentrate the weight on a very small
    area.                   
         

    I agree that it's not an Arab thing.  Here's another example of how a
    horse can change personality based on treatment.
    
    Whenever I visit my folks in Florida, I go riding everyday at a local
    ranch.  The horses there are working horses and have to put up with
    every kind of rider imaginable - mostly beginners or those who think
    they know what they are doing, but don't.
    
    Anyway - they are always bringing in new stock and one day brought in
    this lovely Arab gelding named Freckles.  At first, he was only ridden
    every day by the owner's wife (a fabulous rider) and he was a joy: 
    affectionate, responsive, lively, smart....
    
    Then he became a working horse.  I started riding him and I loved it. 
    He's smaller than most of the horses I ride there ( I prefer the
    quarterhorses), but he was so smooth and responsive that I really
    enjoyed it.  He loved to be groomed and we had a great time together.
    
    Six months later, when I returned for vacation, I noticed that he
    seemed a bit more surly being groomed.  Still a great ride, however.
    
    Six more months passed and now when someone went to groom him, he laid
    his ears back and actually tried to kick.  Once you started riding him
    and he knew that you weren't a complete novice/idiot, he was fine and
    seemed to enjoy himself.
    
    All we could attribute this too was the fact that he now had to work
    all day long and be ridden by a great assortment of people who's size
    and skills were all different.  His conformation is a bit high in the
    withers and we figured he got pretty sore as the week wore on.  
    
    I think that a really intelligent horse would go a bit nuts under these
    conditions.  Some of the other horses at the ranch have learned to cope
    by becoming stubborn, getting away with being as lazy as possible,
    testing out the skills of the rider as soon as they can, etc.... But -
    if they know you and know that you're the boss, most of them are really
    fun to ride.
    
    I feel for working horses.  While they are well taken care of, and
    usually work every other day, they do work hard for a living,
    especially in a warm climate like Southern Florida.  I've been there on
    the weekends and seen these guys completely wiped out by the end of the
    day.  Weekends they work both days non-stop.  I do my best by bringing
    them about 20 lbs of carrots/apples every day.  They are very happy to
    see me walking up the road, that's for sure.
    
    So - don't blame the breed.  Arabs are a wonderfully intelligent breed
    of horses.  I still ride Freckles whenever I'm down there, but I don't
    groom him myself anymore which is sad since I think it's such a nice
    way to get to know the horse and establish a rapport.  If he wants to
    kick someone, it's not going to be me.  They are trying to break him of
    the habit, but I know that he knows it keeps people away from him and
    that's why he does it.
    
    Enough rambling.....
    
    Gita

    Thank for the replies, I didn't think they would come thick and fast. 
    Going off the subject a little in reference to the last reply, I bought
    my mare from a riding school, when she arrived there she was *so*
    responsive, very smooth to ride and would do anything you asked of her. 
    After being kicked in the ribs and yanked in the mouth by 101 riders
    she became very sour and had developed her own style in an attempted to
    go comfortably with awkward riders.  I bought her over a year ago and
    the minute I took her away from there she became a totally different
    horse, she is very trusting with me and will work well, she still has
    her moments.  As I kep her up the road from the riding stables we visit
    reguarly and no one there can believe the difference in her - another
    horse altogether!!
    
    Anyway, this has got nothing to do with my original reply.  Some of the
    replies did seem familiar, the 17 year-old has her own style of
    "riding", she has never had proper consistent lessons and knows how to
    stop/start etc but that's it - forget schooling, she doesn't know the
    meaning of the word.  The horse has very little TLC which I think plays
    a BIG part in it, for example, I'll bring my mare in not only when I'm
    riding but also for the sake of it, to give her a good brush, titbits
    and all that TLC.  This horse NEVER gets that even when she's riding
    him, it's straight in, put the tack on and off we go!!!!!!!
    
    I do feel sorry for him but there isn't that much I can do, I will hint
    along the lines that perhaps she should lay off with the beginners for
    sometime to see if that makes a difference.  I'll also try paying
    attention to him myself (with out my mare noticing!!) and see  how that
    goes.
    
    Thanks for all your responses - I'll keep noting here!!
    
    Liz