Conference noted::equitation

    i thought they allowed standing but not the running..
    
    some horses just get there head up there and the riders just cant 
    control them..
    .02 worth
    

    Here in the UK I have seen some top riders with standing martingales on
    there horses, but these tend to be very loose.  I however would not
    jump my horse in a standing martingale, but I have known people who
    have had black eyes when jumping because their horses have got high
    head carriages and when they jump they have thrown their heads right
    back.
    
    
    Wendy

In the US the following applies (horse show folk correct me if I'm wrong):

	At horse shows, 
		in over fences hunter classes, 
			the horse may have a STANDING martingale
		in flat classes
			the horse may NOT wear a martingale of any sort
		in jumper classes
			the horse may have a RUNNING martingale	

	At events
		the horse may wear a RUNNING martingale for the jumping phases

Of course, the martingales should be adjusted 'correctly' - loose enough for 
the horse to be able to carry his head naturally without the martingale 
interfering, but tight enough to prevent rider's getting black eyes.


Another issue is when the horse can wear leg protection (bandages, boots, etc)

	At horse shows
		in any hunter class (flat or fences)
			the horse may NOT wear leg protection
		in Jumper classes
			the horse may wear leg protection

	At events
		in dressage
			the horse may NOT wear leg protection
		in the jumping phases
			the horse may wear leg protection



My personal preference is that I would like to see hunters with snaffles (not
pelhams) and without martingales (whether jumping or flat).  But that's just my 
opinion, such as it is.

    I learned that jumping in a standing martingale is dangerous.  I
    wouldn't recommend it.
    
    Mary

    I dont think so.. well depends..
    
    I used to barrel race with a tie down, i wouldnt dream of it now..
    i guess i'm in that** fad..
    
    I know Donna Mcgee in denver she always ride with a  standing
    martingale(jumped) and used it in jumping, she broke the jumping record  
    10 years back..
    
    wendy o'
    
    

    
    Wellll, if you go to the rated Hunter shows, you will see most hunters
    and equitation horses, and quite a few jumpers going in standing 
    martingales.  The FEI classes, Grand Prix, and the USET classes don't 
    allow standing martingales. 
    
    If the martingale is adjusted properly and the horse jumps like a horse
    rather than an antelope, there is no interference.  If you watch the 
    really top hunters you should notice that the head and neck position 
    changes VERY LITTLE in reference to the rest of the horse's body as the 
    horse canters around the ring in a nice frame and jumps the jumps. 
    
    The general idea is to not "tie the horses head down" but to limit the
    range that the horse can get its head out of a reasonable position.  This 
    can save those riders who don't have the skill of Anne Kurzinski or Joe
    Fargis from getting a nose job or from having a wreck because they didn't 
    have the skill to be in total control every step of the way.
    
    Sure, ideally no one should need a martingale of any kind.  But how
    many riders and horses are the ideal?
    
    A horse usually is less likely to fight a properly adjusted standing 
    martingale than a running martingale.  What would hurt worse when a
    horse gets out of balance for some reason?  Pressure on the bridge of the 
    nose by a leather strap.  Or a steel bit on tender bars of the mouth made 
    more severe by the effect of the running martingale?
    
    Generally, with a standing martingale, the horse pulls against itself.
    With the running martingale, the horse pulls against the rider.  So the 
    rider who uses one needs to be very accurate all the time.  
    
    As far as 'danger' is concerned, I have seen plenty of horses turn their 
    necks upside down and run through fences to get away from the effect of 
    an inappropriately used running martingale.  Usually these have been 
    insufficiently schooled horses and riders.  
    
    Mary Jo

    I'm in agreement with the previous note. Almost all hunters jump
    with a standing martingale. These act as an aid, not an impedement
    to jumping. When horses are jumping properly they round over fences
    and stretch their head an neck forward. A standing martingales in
    no way interferes. When horses are going with the head too high,
    the martingale aids by preventing an exaggeration and a potentially
    dangerous jump. Martingales are most useful on green horses but
    you will see made show circuit horses regularly jumping with them.

    And if the horse takes a misstep, or if the horse or rider makes a
    mistake, he doesn't have the freedom of movement necessary to allow 
    him to regain his balance.

    O.K. time to educate the ignorant....
    
    Running?  Standing?  What's the difference, what do
    they look like, what are their supposed intent....etc.
    
    L-

Running martingale attaches to the snaffle REINS - 

                  o       o   <--- reins go thru rings
                   \     /       
                    \   /
                     \ /
                      V     <--- there's another strap here that goes around the
                      |           horse's neck, or this point could be the 
                      |           center ring of a hunting breastplate
                      | <-- attaches to girth
                   
	When the horse raises his head, pressure is exerted on the bars of the
	mouth.  The rings of the martingale basically act as a lever, increasing
	the power of the rider's hands.

	I believe the correct adjustment is for the rings to come about to the 
	level of the horse's withers (i.e. so that when the head is in the 
	normal position, there is a slight bag in the martingale (i.e. no 
	pressure is exerted))	

Standing martingale attaches to CAVESSON (noseband)   

                      O     <--- loop here to put cavesson through
                      |
                      |
                      +     <--- there's another strap here that goes around the
                      |           horse's neck, or this point could be the 
                      |           center ring of a hunting breastplate
                      | <-- attaches to girth
                   
	As previously stated, this exerts presure on the nose, be restricting 
	how high the horse can raise his head.

	I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that the standing martingale is 
	adjusted, if when the horse is standing at rest, with the martingale 
	attached, the martingale can be raised to the throatlatch of the bridle.

The intent of both is to keep the horse's head down.  The difference is in the 
method.

Similar to a western tie-down.  The serious western riders at the barn I board 
at use a tie-down that is very similar in appearance to the running martingale.
The only difference, is that there is no strap that goes around the neck.  

    RE: Standing martigales
    
    The intent is not to keep the head down, but to keep the head from
    raising too high. There's a subtle difference. Ordinarily, with proper
    schooling the horse will assume the desired head carriage. A standing
    martingale is adjusted  loosely enough to allow freedom of movement
    within the range of desired head carriage.
    
    Re: .8  A martingale that prevents this kind of freedom of movement is
    too tight. 
    
    

    If one had a horse, green that threw their head during riding/work
    (when bit pressure is exherted) would they use a standing martingale?
    the bit is a mild snaffle bit being used.
    
    Just curious to hear what the users of these say....
    Nancy

    I would use a running martingale..
    
    
    wendy o'
    

    My very green broke horse right now (6 weeks under a rider) tends to 
    throw his head around in response to bit pressure when he doesn't want 
    to stop or turn.  Our response (the trainer's  and mine) is to get a bit 
    with a thicker mouthpiece and ride through it with as steady and quiet 
    a hand as possible.  The tricky part is he makes you want to raise your 
    hands at times and to lower and pull his head down at others, and he
    makes it real hard to keep a steady contact.  The best response is to 
    resist the temptation and ride forward into steady contact with hands 
    low (an inch or two above his withers) without pulling up or down.
    
    It takes a long time to make a good mouth and about 10 minutes to ruin
    one, but if you resist the temptation to force a correct head position, 
    the payoff in the end is a really good, steady and trusting contact.

    
    Re:  .12
    
    If you have a young horse that is throwing its head during flat work, 
    I would first make sure there is nothing physically wrong with the horse 
    -- teeth that need work, a sore back, sore neck, sore gums, sore tongue, 
    ear infection...
    
    If the horse is physically ok, then I would examine the reasons it may
    be throwing its head.  Freshness?  Then lunging might be in order. 
    Unsteady hands?  Maybe a milder bit and some lessons.  Just greenness?   
    Just work through it.
    
    If the horse is throwing its head out of inexperience, maybe a milder
    bit is in order.  A running martingale is going to punish the mouth.  
    An appropriately adjusted standing martingale would keep the horse from 
    punishing the rider's face without punishing the mouth.  
    
    I tend to not like to punish a mouth because of the horse's freshness
    or inexperience.  Generally with a greenie we can work through the
    evasions with steady, careful work without martingales of any kind.
    (Of course there are exceptions.  Then I decide what 'aid' to use by
    the nature of the infraction and/or the temperament of the horse.
    Mary Jo  

I don't think there's quite enough information to make a sight-unseen decision.

Have the horse's teeth been checked for problems?  
How high does he toss his head? High enough to hit you in the face?  
Is he tossing his head because he knows what you want but doesn't want
     to do it, or because he doesn't know what's expected? 
Does he stop after a while? (if so, how long?) 
Does this horse have a planned career (eventing/dressage/shows/western/general 
     pleasure/trail)?  
How does the horse carry their head when riding without contact?  
Is this at all gaits, or just one?  
How independent of the rest of your body are your hands?  
How does the horse respond to the other aids (leg, seat, voice)
What is the general temperament of the horse? (some horses react violently to 
     one or the other type of martingale)

    
    I'm not the one training this horse, but I will again recommend
    to the individual to work through it.  I tend to think this person
    takes the rough approach to breaking in a green horse, which won't
    work with this mare.  She has beautiful movement (I've lunged her
    with a bit but hooked the lunge up so there wasn't pressure on the
    bit and she was relaxed, and even playing with the bit.  This horse
    is smart, but also smart enough to be evasive.  I think I may make
    a motion to help (rather than let her set the horse back by a wrong
    decision).  It's not my horse, but I'm trying.  She is a typical
    .... Ask me and I'll try, tell me and I won't.
    
    Thanks for your responses, I'll go off and try to nip this in the
    bud.  Oh... I'll also check the physical ... I know they floated
    teeth recently, I hope she was done too?  I'll check.
    
    Nancy

    I will second this advice.  When I was working with my greenie, my
    trainer was not concerned with what he did with his head at that time. 
    He said correct carriage would come with time.  Work on getting even
    tempo and stride, quietness and a working attitude.  Keeping my hands
    on the mane may not be good for one's equitation, but it absolutely
    keeps your hands steady and off the mouth.  I started this horse in a
    full cheek rubber jointed snaffle, a mild bit and easy on the mouth. 
    It also won't pull through.  I would suggest that training sessions be
    kept short and interesting ie. serpentines, large figures of eight,
    transitions from walk to trot.  For every 5 minutes of concentrated
    work I had my youngster walk on a loose rein, letting him pull the
    reins long and let his attention wander.  Gradually, I increased the
    amount of time that was allowed for concentrated work, so that in the
    half hour of work the ratio between working and wandering went more
    toward working.  The long and the short of it is that young horses have
    limited attention spans.  Work them too long and they will start to
    resent it.  The idea is to keep them fresh and looking forward to
    training.  A young horse should be tended like a flower and allowed to
    bloom. I have learned much from this trainer, with no gismos of any
    sort.  We may not have hit the show ring in 90 days, but I will say
    that now that he is six, my desert flower has bloomed.  I have an eager
    learner, a horse that works well in any situation, and believe it or
    not now has an acceptable head carriage ---- imagine that!
    
    

    I used a standing martingale when I first bought Jasper. He's a
    Tennessee Walker and really believed in keeping his head high. 
    That didn't matter since eventually I was going to train him to flex
    and collect off my leg, but when it came to jumping (or train work)
    I needed a standing martingale. 
    When jumping, he would get so impatient/excited, that he would toss his
    head up. Since I didn't want to get a severe bit or a tight grip on his
    mouth, I needed a standing martingale to prevent getting hit in the
    face. 
    So as one writer mentioned, I used the standing martingale as a
    preventive measure( so I wouldn't get a bloody nose) and not for keeping 
    his head down. 
    After a while, he lowered his head naturally, and not through an
    artifical aid.
    		Cindy
    

    Re .-1, Oops, that was trail work not train work. I'm not sure what
    Jasper would do if he encountered a train!
    		Cindy
    

    One thing I have used with some success in this situation is side
    reins. 'Specially while lungeing, though I have also let a young horse
    just play with them on. Adjustment is key here, also.