Conference noted::equitation

    
    	
    	I use wood shavings on my dirt floor stalls and find cleaning
    them (3 times a week) not to difficult, except for the ponies stall
    which he insists on walking in circles, and making a sort of track
    in his stall causing me to spend almost twenty minutes more to clean.
    Since then I have decided to build a wood floor in his stall to end
    any further destruction by him.  Since he is much lighter than a horse 
    this should not be a burden on his feet.

    	-dave
    
    

    DAVE,
    
         THANKS FOR THE REPLY.  WHEN YOU MADE THE WOOD FLOOR FOR YOUR
    PONY DID YOU STILL USE THE WOOD SHAVINGS?  ARE WOOD SHAVINGS FAIRLY
    INEXSPENSIVE?
    
                       DAVE S.

A friend of mine uses shredded newspaper in her stalls. They are cheap
and a bale of them lasts a lot longer than a bale of shavings (they
expand when they come out of the bale). Also, they "clump" together when
wet so she can shovel out the clumps and the loose, dry shreds just
fall back to the floor. The horses don't mind the newspaper at all.

However, although she has seen no ill effects (has been using them since
late last fall), she's concerned about the inks and whatever the paper
may have been made of.  Not only may this cause a health problem for
the horse, but what if the chemicals were to get into the water table
and her well?

I had heard long ago that when burning newspaper in a woodstove, the
black ink was ok, but the colored ink from the sunday funnies and
advertisments could be toxic.

Has anyone had any experience with something like this? Any ideas on
how good a practice it is to use these shredded newspapers?

thanks,
-julie

	When I just had one horse and a burro, who walked freely from
	their barn to the outside and were never separated, I didn't use
	bedding because they rarely used the stall as a bathroom.
	Then I got more horses... This meant feeding them all separately,
	so nobody got bullied and also so I could tell if anyone was off
	their feed.  And this meant that they spend the nights in their
	stalls, eating and making messes.

	I use wood chips.  I know some people think sawdust is more
	absorbent, but all my horses take their hay out of the feeder and
	put it on the floor, so I wasn't sure that was a good idea.  I tried
	straw, but found the chips easier to clean, especially with an
	"apple-picker".  Also, one of my horses loves straw and eats it even
	when she's getting plenty of hay.
    
	Has anyone tried stall mats?  I've seen them advertised.  I think
	they might be expensive.  I think you would still use some bedding
	with them, but not as much.  I get mucky spots in certain places, 
	and was wondering if this would help.

	As to fly control - I have this big glass jar filled with disgusting
	rotten liver and fly-killing stuff and LOTS of dead flies.  You can
	buy them at most feed stores (at least you can in Colorado).  It is
	full of flies, but I still have lots of flies outside the jar.  
	Lately I've been attacking them with Raid - I just try to hit as 
	many as I can.  But, I was wondering if this is healthy for the 
	horses, since the hay is stored in there.

    I unfortunately don't have my own barn and therefore must board
    out but one of the barns where I have my horses dose use stall mats
    in almost all of the stalls.  The mats seem to have saved on bedding
    and they also keep the horses from pawing at the stall floor and
    creating holes.  The mats are also good as far as lessening strain
    on the legs because they are about 1" thick and maintain an even
    surface in the stall.  Some kind of bedding still has to be used
    but definitely not as much as without them.  These mats also seem
    to last very well so the big expense is at initial purchase.

    I use rubber mats in my stalls, and mix 3 bags shavings to 1 bag
    paper, it's much more absorbent that way, cuts the cost alot.
    Using the paper straight works fine, but it can be very dusty,
    and have a strong odor, cutting it down with sawdust, gives the
    stall a much nicer smell and makes for easier cleaning.  The
    mats, I use as shock absorbers, I don't find that it helps or
    hinders the stall cleaning any more/less.
    
    

    I have always had clay or wood stall floors in my barns, and then
    use plenty of wood shavings on top.  Horses need a soft bed to lay
    down in and the shavings are absorbent.  I found sawdust to be dusty
    and since I also have older horses they were much more sensitive
    to the dust.  At college some of the horses stalls were bedded with
    newspaper but they found that with grey horses or horses with white
    markings the ink was staining the white areas - very hard to clean.
    
    In any case I would always use bedding no matter what the survice
    underneath is.  You can buy bulk shavings from saw mills.  I buy 
    mine by the cord at 8$ a cord I can store about 10 cords that last 
    me a long time.  Buying bags can be expensive but they are easier
    to store, they can run about $2.50 to $3.50 a bale.
    
    I also would recommend at least picking the stalls out daily with
    a full cleaning once a week, depending on how often the poines are
    going to be kept in.  This makes cleaning easier if you keep up
    with it and keeps the ponies happy and cleaner and controls the
    fly population to some extent.
    
    Good luck, Dave, with the ponies......
    
    - Jenny -
                            

    If the horse lays down or rolls in the stall, banking the edges
    will help keep the horse from becoming cast.  It doesn't take much
    more shavings to do this, and it can save the horse from serious
    injury.
    

    One of the best 'floors' for a stall is packed clay on top
    of gravel.  There should be drain at the cente of the stall
    and a few inches of gravel should be placed over the bottom
    of the stall.  Pack a few inches of clay (not dirt) on top
    of the gravel.  The clay absorbs moisture, and the gravel
    allows it to travel down to the drain, since there is space
    between the individual pieces of gravel.  Make sure the clay
    is packed down tightly, or else you will dig parts of it up
    each time you clean the stall.
    
    I think wood shavings are the most absorbent and easiest to
    clean.  They don't hold the wet spots like sawdust does, and
    sawdust tends to 'heat' up when wet, and if the horse spends
    much time in the stall, it can give him thrush or other hoof
    problems.  Also, sawdust tends to be dustier than shavings.
    I used to buy shavings by the bale or bag, and 2 to 3 bags
    can fill a 10x12 stall and last at least a week, if you clean
    the stalls daily.  I also agree with Joan's reply (122.8) 
    about banking the shavings against the walls of the stall if
    your horse/pony tends to get cast.

	My barn setup is somewhat different than the replies I've read so
I'll add my two cents.
	I built my stalls in an existing barn so I had to make concessions
to the existing structure. The stalls are straight tie stalls. I believe the
big horses are as confortable in tie stalls as they would be in a box stall
and they can't cast in the straight ones.
	I use a plank floor covered with pine sawdust for bedding. As stated
in an earlier reply, clay and gravel make the best surface. I used planks 
because my barn has a cement floor. I set the planks on 2X4 sleepers so that
the surface the horses are standing on is less rigid than concrete.
	Contrary to the experience of others, I've found pine sawdust to be
less dusty than shavings. Mostly I prefer sawdust because once mixed with
horse manure it makes better fertilizer than shavings. Shavings are very slow
to compost.
	My horses are only in the barn a night. During the day they are working
or turned out to pasture. In the barn they have free choice hay, salt, and 
water. They also get groomed and have their feet checked at least once a day. I
clean the stalls out and change the bedding every morning.
	During the summer, I feed equitrol for fly control in the barn. I also
spray the barn daily and the horses before work or turn-out. The horses wear
fly halters when in the pasture. I'm not sure they repel insects well, but the
pieces that dangle from the headstock keep the insects out of the horses eyes.

    
     THANKS FOR ALL THE SUGGESTIONS. I GUESS I'LL TRY STARTING OFF WITH
    THE WOOD SHAVINGS AND SEE HOW IT WORKS OUT.  WHAT DO YOU MEAN WHEN
    YOU SAY THAT A HORSE WILL "CAST" IN A STALL?
    
                                                 DAVE

    I have used most of the types of bedding listed except for paper.
     I've heard lots of stories about paper and grey/white horses looking
    dingy, but as I said I've had no personal experience.  My personal
    preferrance is to use pine sawdust that is fresh cut.  It has a
    naturally nice smell (nature's pinesol), is much better on feet
    since it isn't so dry, and as mentioned before composts better than
    shavings.  The problem I've had is getting them delivered in bulk.
    Most places that I've talked to sell their sawdust for burning.
    We are currently using kiln dried shavings in bulk.  Except for
    the dust and dry feet it creates, it works relatively well.

    A horse is cast when they roll over close to the wall such that
    they are too close to get up on the side they are lying on and they
    are too close to get enough momentum to roll back to the other side
    to get up.  They all act differently but some really panic and scramble
    so badly that they hurt themselves seriously.  It's the horses version
    of being caught between a rock and a hard place.  If the floor is
    banked there is a greater chance that they can push away from the
    wall or roll back over.

Where you you get shavings for $8.00 a cord ? Does the mill deliver ?
< Note 122.7 by 7197::CIAMPAGLIA >
                                     -<  >-

    I have always had clay or wood stall floors in my barns, and then
    use plenty of wood shavings on top.  Horses need a soft bed to lay
    down in and the shavings are absorbent.  I found sawdust to be dusty
    and since I also have older horses they were much more sensitive
    to the dust.  At college some of the horses stalls were bedded with
    newspaper but they found that with grey horses or horses with white
    markings the ink was staining the white areas - very hard to clean.
    
    In any case I would always use bedding no matter what the survice
    underneath is.  You can buy bulk shavings from saw mills.  I buy 
    mine by the cord at 8$ a cord I can store about 10 cords that last 
    me a long time.  Buying bags can be expensive but they are easier
    to store, they can run about $2.50 to $3.50 a bale.
    
    I also would recommend at least picking the stalls out daily with
    a full cleaning once a week, depending on how often the poines are
    going to be kept in.  This makes cleaning easier if you keep up
    with it and keeps the ponies happy and cleaner and controls the
    fly population to some extent.
    
    Good luck, Dave, with the ponies......
    
    - Jenny -
                            

    Hi Stan, sorry it took me so long to reply...
    
    I get my shavings (actually the are a shaving/sawdust mix) from Curtis
    Lumber in Hubbardston (sp?) Ma.  They do not deliver as far as I
    know, you have to bring your own truck and shovel the stuff yourself.
    If you have the truck the time and the energy this can be worth
    it for the savings.  
    
    I am picky about what I bed with - so if what they have is too dusty
    I won't get it till a new load is brought in.  But usually they
    are pretty good and worth the effort.
    
    Good luck I would suggest calling them first - alot of people use
    them so they might not always have them when you need them.
    
     - jenny - 
        

    I would like more information on clay floors.  I am presently designing
    floor plans for my new barn and have read many comments from you
    folks about clay floors being the best.  ( I've always been accustomed
    to wood floors).  So I have a few question for anyone that can give
    me so inputs.
    
    1.  What is the process of putting in a clay floor?
    
    2.  How would you put in a drain in the middle of the floor and
        keep shavings out of it?
    
    3.  Why is the clay floor the best over the other type floors?
    
    4.  What does the clay floor do, absorb moisture or does it hold
        moisture and the shavings would absorb the moisture?
    
    5.  Do you have to repack or replace the clay with time?
    
    I would be interested in knowing any other information pro and con
    in the use of clay floors.  I have almost decided to put one in
    but I have to have more facts.
    
    Hope to hear from you.
    
    Julie
    Sidney,Maine
    

    Julie, I too would like to know the answers to your questions! I've
    read a statement somewhere that clay floors are good for drainage.
    Well, I begto differ! Nothing much drains THROUGH clay! My guess
    would be that clay is good because it does not drain through and
    allows the bedding to absorb the moisture, while at the same time
    it is a resilient substance that is easy on horses feet and legs.
    Otherwise, concrete would do just as well! I'm looking forward to
    the answers from those who have actual experience with clay floors.
    Good luck with your new barn!
    
    bob koller
    

    I've read a lot about clay floors,and the one disadvantage that
    I can think of is that it's recommended that about eight inches
    of clay be replaced every year. This means digging out the old
    which is an awful lot of work unless you can somehow use a tractor.
    I don't have a pat answer,but I've had good luck with both sawdust
    and shavings. Straw is a lot of work and doesn't give very good
    results.
    	One comment though,if you have the space,build runs adjoining
    each stall,and leave the doors open except during bad storms. It's
    healthier for the horses,and most will go outside for nature's call.
    It's a good deal easier to clean a run than a stall,and it saves
    your bedding.
    
    	George
    

re: .18 

I recently moved my horse into an old barn with clay floors.
The stall has direct access to a 1/2 acre run. The clay appears
to do the trick on absorbing moisture. But, I think the run
has helped even more. I have reduced my cleaning chores to 
once every two weeks or so! The horse has chosen a particular 
corner of the run as its latrine. Running a tractor over the 
lawn every now and then sure beats shoveling sh*t! 

Is this fastidious behaviour common to all horses? As a former 
marching band member (usually marching, it seems, behind the 
mounted police), I had always thought the opposite.

    		re: .19
    common behavior for horses.
    		
    	well , it must be because my horse is the same way in her stall.
    she picks the fartherest corner in her stall. she even that way
    at shows. her blankets never even get stained. my other horses,
    were that way too. I just thought that was the peter mc cue in them.

    Re: .19
    
    There's some clean horses and some dirty horses just like there's
    some clean people and some dirty people.  I've been blessed with
    both types, but I have observed that most are better outside than
    in a stall.  If anyone has training techniques for this one the
    could retire on the royaties.
    
    Bob
    

    HORSE MATS
    I just had a pole barn built and I am trying to figure out what would be the
    best thing for a horse stall floor.  I heard that there is rubber mats
    out.  Does anyone out there know if they are any good?  Or have any
    other good ideas.  Also, for the rest of the barn floor I thought that
    I would use 3/4 inch modified stone about 8 inches deep.  If anyone out
    there has any better ideas please let me know soon.  This is my first
    time writing in the notes file.
    
                                  Thanks 
                              Donna Sickenberger    DTN 328-4240
    

    Mats are great, but I think they're quite expensive.  We just built a 4
    stall pole barn in December and have had good luck with sawdust over
    natural clay.
    
    We use a heavy cover of sawdust in the stalls.  It is easily picked
    through and easy to dispose of when soiled.  It's also inexpensive and
    easy to get from local saw mills.  We even use it in the aisle as a
    cover for the natural floor.  It only needs occassional raking to look
    neat and it provides an easy-to-access supply for replacing soiled
    sawdust as you remove it from the stalls.
    
    If you want to try something before spending those hard-earned dollars
    on mats, I recommend saw dust.
    
    Regards,
    
    John Wood
    GRANMA::JWOOD
    
    

    I love my mats!!!
    I have been in a few places over the years, tried concrete, dirt, clay,
    and stone dust. I have mats in my own place now, they have been down
    for a year and a half, and I have not had to do ANYTHING to the floor.
    Of course normal bedding is used over them, but if you sweep it away
    they look the same as when I put them down. I feel it was the best
    money I ever spent. It cost me less than $150 per stall. I get my
    bedding for free, but it still takes time to get it. The mats do save a
    lot of bedding because you only have to dry up urine, not the ground.
    Sandy
    

    we have to buy shavings, and they get expensive.  With the mats, I can 
    use less shavings, and in the long run save money.  I have the mats
    on the clay base.  This way I can add more mats as I get the extra
    cash.  I also had a gelding who would dig to china and rip up the 
    stalls (never mind making it a pain in the behind to clean).  
    The mats kept the digging down, and I would put enough shavings in
    so all I had to do was sweep it out....2 minutes worth of work, instead
    of 10 minutes.  My time is definatly worth the initial expense.
    

    Stall mats are the best invention since sliced bread.  
    Everything everyone else has said is true.  Our horses are
    free to go in and out of their stalls all day and night so
    of course you know where they choose to leave their stuff.
    I clean stalls twice a day (I know, I know, but I don't have
    any flies) and it takes no time at all.  Then I just put down
    some lime and sprinkle in some clean shavings and I'm done.
    So much easier than picking through shavings and no craters
    in the middle of the stalls either.
    
    If you have the option I would definitely recommend mats over
    clay or dirt or stonedust or whatever.
    
    gwen
    

    We have both clay and sand floors and some with mats.  The mats are for
    the diggers...they work great.  We seem to use the same amount of
    shavings for both at this time of year.  You can laugh but it depends
    on who cleans them.  Our son stips clean and dirty; my husband sifts
    more.  What can I say.
    
    Good luck whatever you decide to do.
    
    

OK, So where do I get Rubber Mats in Southern NH?

Robin

    I bought mine at Agway in Chelmsford, but I have the Big D's harness
    catalog here and they also have them.  The sizes they have are 3/4"
    thick, 10' x 10', 10' x 12', 12' x 12', 12' x 14', 12' x 16'.  The
    price for a 3/4" x 4' x 6' piece is $75.00, or $2.99 per square foot.
    They keep these in stock and ship for free!!  The toll free number is
    800-321-2142.

    A friend custom ordered his through a company advertised in the Pedlar
    and some of the horse magazines.  His are all one piece.  The ones in
    my barn were picked up here and there.... :*)
    
    I bought some for my trailer, 4X6 from Donna White in Upton, Ma.  She
    warantees them for 5 years (and has been in the buisness for several
    and I think she told me she didn't have any comebacks).
    
    She'll ship them, I think?  Oh yeah, they cost $50.40 total.  I am 
    real happy w/ them, and might use them next time I need to cover
    a stall floor.
    
    Michele
    
    	White Haven Farm
    	175 Mechanic St.
    	Upton, Ma 01568
    	(508)529-3384
    

    My boyfriend and I are refitting a building for a horse.  I like to
    have wood floor for the bottom of the stall, since there is only 
    sand there now, that has glass and all kinds of pieces of debrie.
    
    How thick do the boards have to be to with stand a 1500 pd horse from
    falling through the boards.  The stall is 8 by 12.
    
    thanks
       

    Personally, I would use concrete, for the flooring of a stable....!!!!
    
    I have never heard of wooden flooring other than in horse
    lorries/trailers.
    
    Mind you there is always a first time for everything......but I would
    say at least afew inches.
    
    vicky
    

    I agree with note .1 concrete would be a lot better and more practical.
    
    If you have a wooden floor it could cause problems - wood absorbs
    water and it takes a long time to dry out, and can rot very quicky,
    so you would need to keep it regularaly maintained, with a wood
    preserver, and a hard wood (which is what you would need) is expensive
    so it might be worth while having concrete laid, with appropriate
    drainage.                     
    

    I believe most of the old barns in New England have wooden floors
    in all their stalls.  It does take more care.  You have to make sure
    you keep the stalls pretty clean and let them air out (to dry) 
    during the day (just push the shavings off to the sides and let the
    center where the wet spot is dry) but I know many people who would
    swear by them over concrete any day.  I'd rather have my horses 
    standing on a wooden floor for 8-10 hours a night rather than hard 
    concrete (even if it is covered with shavings).
    
    Our barn had 2-3 inch thick cedar flooring.  Under the stalls.  
    When we talked to a few builders about redoing part of the floor 
    they recommended 3 inch thick for safety's sake.  There was a cellar
    in our barn, so the stalls were all on the second level.
    
    \Caroline

    We have two conflicting opinions between two continents.......!!!!
    
    We in the UK use concrete tiled based floors with appropriate
    drainage....! so that urine can drain can flow out of the bed.
    
    Also when cleansing the box, concrete allows all types of cleaning
    materials to be used for thorough hygiene.
    
    If there is sufficient bedding, it becames cosy enough for us "humanes"
    to sleep in.
    
    I knew a horse who pawed the ground in a wooden floored box, causing
    splinters to go into the lower part of the leg and foot, resulting in a
    lames injured horse.
    
    Vicky
    

    Stone dust makes a nice floor.  It provides natural drainage and isn't
    as hard on a horses feet and legs as concrete.  If you use concrete, be 
    sure to use lots of bedding.
    
    Mary

    If it were me, I would lay rubber mats over what you have. The expense
    would probably be the same as wood, they last longer, are not slippery,
    cannot be damaged by pawing, and cushion the horse somewhat.
    Sandy
    

    I strongley agree with .7  the rubber mat is excelant..but if over what
    you have..clen the debris (if you can) and you can rent a packer..it
    will strongly pack down what you have and it will not be to hard ro
    to soft..and put the mat over it..the mats add cusion and they are so
    easy to clean and you dont need as much shavings as you do with wood
    or concrete..I personaly would never put my horse on concrete it casues
    legs problems..bow tendenos and such even with bags and bags of
    shavings..sorry guys..just my opionion :-) go with the mat
    
    Lou

    I STRONGLY agree with .7, also.  My horse was boarded on
    wooden boards, and developed a "capped elbow" on one of
    his front legs.  He also has permanent pressure/burn marks on
    his hind hocks from them being scuffed when he got up or
    down from lying in the stall.  When he was moved home to
    his new stall, (clay floor) the "golf ball" disappeared,
    and I was able to heal up and get most of the hair to grow
    back on his hind hocks.  I am going to buy floor mats sometime
    soon to make the stall easier to clean, but still provide
    a soft floor.
    
    L-  (p.s. my horse lies down all night, every night to sleep)

    I used to board my horse at Donna's farm.  You couldn't ask for
    a more upfront professional than Donna.  I have used Donna's mats
    and have been very happy with them, Donna, and her boarding facility.

    stephanie

    NOw that stall floors have been discussed pretty thoroughly, I'd
    like to see if anyone has good ideas for the rest of the barn floor. My
    barn has dirt floors, and I have rubber mats in the stalls.  But the
    dust from the dirt floor in the aisles is *awful*.  I was considering
    rubber mats for this too, but the cross tie area is almost completely
    covered with rubber mats but there's still a *lot* of dust -- clouds of
    it everytime I move!  I will eventually have concrete poured, and this
    will eliminate the problem.  But I can't afford that for a while yet.
    
    In the meantime, anyone have any ideas about how to keep the dust down?
    
    -ellie

    Use a garden sprinkler bucket (can't remember what they're called) to
    wet the floor down lightly every day.  This is also a good thing to do
    prior to sweeping cement floors.
    
    Mary

    	My girlfriend works for a woman who has her blow the dust out
    every day with one of those leave blowers (I think the floor is
    asphault though).

    re .-1
    I don't think blowing out the dust would work on a dirt floor.  I think
    it would get rid of the current layer of dust, thus uncovering a new
    layer of dirt to be turned into dust by feet and hooves...
    
    Someone in HOME_WORK suggested bark mulch, and this sounds like it
    might work.  Smells nice, too.
    
    -ellie

    My trainer uses shavings in the aisle and just keeps them racked.
    
    Seems to work.
    
    

    We will be converting an existing building to a small barn (two stalls
    plus tack and feed room).  The building has concrete flooring.  If I
    place rubber mats on the concrete, and use shavings on top of the mats,
    will this be enough cushioning?  I'm worried about damage to the
    horses' legs from standing on too hard a surface.  The stalls will be
    12 x 15, and the horses will only be locked in them during bad weather. 
    At other times, they'll have access to a run or small pasture.
    
    Someone suggested packing dirt on top of the concrete, and then using
    mats and shavings.  What do you think?

    Yes, 3/4" stall mats with an inch or so of shavings/sawdust will be GREAT.
    We have concrete floors in the 3 stall barn that was built by a
    previous owner of the farm. We had been using about 8" of bedding
    directly over the concrete. The horses suffered no serious damage from
    the concrete but their hind fetlocks did swell occasionally.
    
    Last January, we installed rubber stall mats. The swelling disappeared
    overnight. We use TONS less bedding and we clean stalls faster. See Note 
    51.0  Rubber Stall Mats for a detailed discussion with 57 replies!
    
    Good luck
    John