T.R | Title | User | Personal Name | Date | Lines |
---|
2228.1 | Hope you're not behind me!! | YUPPY::TILLINGS | | Tue Feb 22 1994 20:11 | 6 |
| Peter,
It sounds like a problem with the servo unit, or the master cylinder
seals. Either way your a brave man to drive it !!
Simon.
|
2228.2 | Experience says it's the Master Cylinder | CHEFS::MCGINTYJ | | Tue Feb 22 1994 20:22 | 6 |
| I had a similar problem with Peugeot 505. The problem was intermittent
and was cured only after the master cylinder was replaced.
Be careful.
John
|
2228.3 | some more | LEDS::ROBERTSON | | Tue Feb 22 1994 22:55 | 10 |
| I agree with the servo unit. However, the bleeding of the rear
brakes needs to be done with the proportioning valve open.
Just pry something between the body and the mechanism on the valve
to make sure it is open for a proper bleed.
I'd say check the master cylinder first.
Dale
|
2228.4 | step 2? | BONNET::HARDY | | Wed Feb 23 1994 11:39 | 10 |
| Chaps,
thanks so far,
Apart from signs of leaks, what should I look for/how can I check, the
master cylinder?
As for bravery, the brakes still work, it's just a little strange!
Peter
|
2228.5 | | GVA05::STIFF | Paul Stiff EPSCC, DTN:821-4167 | Wed Feb 23 1994 15:24 | 4 |
| When you press the pedal is there a "blank spot" with no resisance
whatsoever ? This indicates master cylinder wear.
Paul
|
2228.6 | Do the right thing | MUGGER::SHARP | Bob Sharp | Wed Feb 23 1994 15:25 | 7 |
|
Brakes are a safety-critical system.
Do the right thing. Take the car to a professional,
or at least someone you can sue.
Bob
|
2228.7 | Probably not the servo. | AYOV11::JDRAKE | _100% Fact Free Note | Wed Feb 23 1994 15:36 | 15 |
| The symptoms seem to suggest a fault either in the master cylinder,
or the front brake pipes, or calipers. The fact that the pedal is
nearly going to the floor, seems to discount the servo being at fault.
If the system on the Espace is similar to others it will be with split
hydraulics, front and rear. The rear brakes sometimes locking when the
fronts are ineffective suggests that the rears are working OK, but the
fronts are sometimes not. Likely causes are, master cylinder fault, brake
pipes leaking, flexible brake pipes leaking, a caliper fault, or air in the
front brakes. Is the fluid level in the resovier dropping? If it is
not, then suspect a fault in the master cylinder.
Having the back brakes lock before the front is dangerous as the
car can easily spin. Having dodgy brakes at all is not a good idea.
Jeremy
|
2228.8 | Its unanimous(ish) | BONNET::HARDY | | Wed Feb 23 1994 16:44 | 21 |
| Chaps,
It's booked into a garage for tomorrow morning. This is a different one
to he who did the initial work as I'm not overconfident in the first
one's ability. I was also rather niffed at being charged for the
re-bleed two weeks after the initial work "as they didn't know if I'd
abused the car in the meantime".
I selected tomorrow's garage because in agreement with the replies in
here he said "sounds like the master cylinder".
I'll post the result in here, probably next week.
thanks again
peter
PS, I'd thought about a front/rear cylinder split but didn't
understand the way the pressure limiter fitted into that arrangement.
Guess I'll have to read the manual tonight!
|
2228.9 | front/rear versus diagonal split | RDGE44::ALEUC1 | Barry Gates, 7830-1155 | Wed Feb 23 1994 17:36 | 9 |
| I always thought that "European" versions of cars had a diagonal brake
split (my terminology is a bit lacking here!). So if one half of the
brake system fails you will still be able to brake using a front wheel
on one side of the car and a rear wheel on the other side. I believe
that models for the Japanese market have a front/rear split.
Have I misunderstood?
Barry.
|
2228.10 | | LEMAN::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux @GEO, DTN 821-4150 | Wed Feb 23 1994 18:17 | 12 |
2228.11 | A worn wheel bearing? | ALBURT::LEWIS | | Thu Feb 24 1994 12:15 | 11 |
| Could it possibly be that one of your front wheel bearings is worn thus
causing the brake pads to be pushed out from the brake disk? This would
have the effect of requiring the brake peddle to pressed a couple of
time to bring the pads back in to contact with the disk but the rear
brake would still operate as normal due to the split braking system.
Just an idea,
Neil
|
2228.12 | | WARNUT::ALLEN | It works better if you screw it in.. | Thu Feb 24 1994 18:42 | 11 |
| Best guess is master cylinder as others have said. The last note does
remind me of something I used to take part in. Economy runs. You take a
screwdriver to the pads and lever them off the disc as far as they will
go and then NEVER touch the brakes until your 1 gallon runs out. If you
forget to press the stop pedal a couple of times before you go out on
the open road the results are "interesting". A warped disc or worn
bearing etc could produce the same effect as the screwdriver, i.e.
knock the pads away from the disc. You wouldn't see any drop in brake
fluid unless the pads were pushed far enough back to force the fluid
out of the top of the pot which you can very soon spot because of the
rapid corrosion in that area!
|
2228.13 | there's always a catch | BONNET::HARDY | | Fri Feb 25 1994 14:27 | 13 |
| Chaps,
A new master cylinder is on order.
Unfortunately I'm in the UK at the moment but it's a left hand drive
car. Hence most pedal related items are mirror imaged. A new one will
take a day or two to arrive.
When Joe Spanner did the pads, etc he left the fluid reservoir
completely full. I can't work out how this could cause the failure, but
I can't help wondering if it contributed.
Peter
|
2228.14 | | WARNUT::ALLEN | It works better if you screw it in.. | Fri Feb 25 1994 16:03 | 4 |
| Are you sure he did? Reason I ask is that my previous reply about the
pads being moved off the disks would cause the fluid to rise
substantially in the resevoir. You'd be surprised by how much.
|
2228.15 | tuppence worth | KERNEL::BARTHUR | | Fri Feb 25 1994 18:05 | 12 |
|
My money is on one of your brakes binding intermittently, because
the re-lining was not done properly, this causes the brake fluid to
boil near the offending wheel. Next time you hit the pedal, it goes to
the floor. You see no obvious leaks and the level in the master
cylinder never alters.
You could save a lot of money by simply waiting until the problem
appears, stop the car and feel which drum/disc is twice as hot as the
others!
Bill
|
2228.16 | The plot thickens (unlike the fluid) | BONNET::HARDY | | Fri Feb 25 1994 19:29 | 10 |
| Nice one Bill,
Wouldn't I get pulling to one side? I know when it boiled, the air
would take pressure of both sides, but just beforethat the "hot" pad
would loose efficiency?
Hmmm
peter
|
2228.17 | only maybe | KERNEL::BARTHUR | | Fri Feb 25 1994 19:48 | 7 |
| Peter,
It would be noticeable, i suppose if it was jammed quite tightly on one
of the fronts, but i had this problem on a rear brake and it was
impossible to detect from normal driving. I've found that even a small
amount of sticking can produce this problem.
Hope you fix it quick
|
2228.18 | Fiver on boiling | CMOTEC::JASPER | Stuck on the Flypaper of Life | Mon Feb 28 1994 18:33 | 22 |
|
.15 beat me to it. You had the front disks & pads replaced. This means
that both the front cylinders are suddenly operating in an area
previously unused for some time. There could be rust or debris in this
area of the slave cylinder(s).
I would expect the reservoir to have overflowed when both disks & pads
were replaced.
Some garages pinch the flexible hoses to stop fluid loss during brake
servicing, so its also possible that internal damage to the bore of the
flexible pipe could send fragments of rubber into the front wheel slave
cylinders, part-siezing 1 or both.
For my money, I'd repair or replace both cylinders. This fault seems very
dangerous. My guess is its fluid-boiling. The condition of the wheel
bearings will also have an effect on this. Worn bearings may clear the
fault temporarily as the calipers are forced apart.
Tony.
|
2228.19 | Answer coming.... tomorrow | BONNET::HARDY | | Tue Mar 01 1994 15:21 | 14 |
| Chaps,
The LH drive master cylinder arrived yesterday so it's going on at this
very moment.
We'll find out if it's the master cylinder or the slaves/fluid boiling
in the next couple of days. More correctly, my wife will as she's the
test pilot!
I would have thought that rust/debris in the slaves would have caused
loss of fluid, more than boiling. I'm not loosing fluid.
Peter
|
2228.20 | | BAHTAT::EATON_N | Personal Name Removed to Save Costs | Tue Mar 01 1994 15:47 | 8 |
|
Wise man, I'd get my wife to check out brake trouble too! Hope she's
well insured! 8^)
Kidding, really, just kidding! 8^)
Nigel
|
2228.21 | will it or wont it? | KERNEL::BARTHUR | | Thu Mar 03 1994 15:43 | 8 |
|
Peter,
do you trust the garage? If they fit the new one and find that it
hasn't cured the problem, they might fix the proper cause, not tell you
and charge for the new MC.
cynically yours :>)
|
2228.22 | And the answer is! | BONNET::HARDY | | Mon Mar 07 1994 13:01 | 13 |
| Chaps,
Well I got it back with the new master cylinder.
All looks (and feels) OK, including a reasonable length drive to check
out the boiling fluid scenario.
Wife now test driving it ;-}
Thanks for all the input.
Peter.
|
2228.23 | Battery white deposit and spongy brakes! | VARDAF::CHURCH | Dave Church@VBE (DTN 828-6125) | Mon Oct 17 1994 14:09 | 50 |
2228.24 | | FORTY2::HOWELL | Just get to the point... | Mon Oct 17 1994 14:22 | 17 |
| re. Brakes
Go out and try and emergency stop (30mph, clear road, dry, etc..)
?!?!
I must admit the symptom you describe (*sudden* pedal change)
sounds worrying, since a leak will usually be gradual. All I can think
of is maybe a caliper is sticking ? Considering you've probably got
4-pot calipers (I don't know what car we're talking about here) the
effect on braking may not be immediately noticeable (since the other 3
pistons will be working fine).
I'd have it checked out (if you're not willing to have a look
yourself, of course).
As for the battery, I wouldn't expect it to leak THAT much after
only 9 months.
|
2228.25 | | FORTY2::PALKA | | Mon Oct 17 1994 14:50 | 23 |
| The brake pedal sinkling to the floor could be a faulty master
cylinder. The seal around the piston is leaking, allowing fluid to
return from the high pressure side (to the brakes) to the low pressure
side (to the reservoir). In this case there is no overall loss of fluid
(the reservoir remains full), but the brakes might give out on a long
stop (from high speed say). They will recover if your release the pedal
and try again (pumping the pedal).
The white deposits could be the result of overflowing, possibly due to
overcharging (faulty regulator in the alternator). It's not likely to
be overheating from being overloaded. When you have topped
up the cells you should check the density of the electrolyte (after
allowing the added water to mix and the battery to charge up again).
You may need to add acid if the density is too low. If you think the
battery acid has spilled then wash the area thoroughly to remove any
remaining acid. (You can use a weak bicarbonate of soda solution to
help neutralise any remaining acid, but rinse in plain water again -
and try not to get anything into the battery cells !). Check the
voltage with the engine running at 2000-3000 rpm.
I dont think either of these things should happen to a new car.
Andrew
|
2228.26 | | FORTY2::HOWELL | Just get to the point... | Mon Oct 17 1994 16:05 | 1 |
| Or something to do with a brake servo ? Pipe came loose?
|
2228.27 | | TRUCKS::BEATON_S | I Just Look Innocent | Mon Oct 17 1994 16:23 | 6 |
| The battery on my 205 has been with the car since 1986.... Absolutely
no white deposit at all.
Reargards,
Stephen
|
2228.28 | | WOTVAX::HARDYP | | Mon Oct 17 1994 16:34 | 14 |
| Dave,
See 2228.*
Or try dir/title=brakes......don't work ;-}
Peter
PS Maybe they've crossed your petrol filler with a brake pipe. This
might explain several things!
|
2228.29 | | PLAYER::BROWNL | Coito ergo sum | Mon Oct 17 1994 16:57 | 5 |
| .2 says it for me. I agree with both diagnoses. In particular, the
braking problem could be dirty fluid, but in any event, is almost
certainly the master cylinder.
Cheers, Laurie.
|
2228.30 | Now, where's the Vaseline? | MOEUR5::SMITH_M | Martin Smith, Evry (F). - 858 4896. | Mon Oct 17 1994 17:31 | 19 |
2228.31 | They have been added to the garages "To Do" list - thanks | VARDAF::CHURCH | Dave Church@VBE (DTN 828-6125) | Mon Oct 17 1994 17:45 | 26 |
| Thanks folks - you confirmed that it should not be normal for a car
under 1 year of age to exhibit the soft brakes and battery dandruff.
RE: .3 - I had a check around the servo yesterday and a quick look
near the wheels to make sure nothing has come loose. I'll check again
just to make doubly certain. But in any case below the car it's dry.
RE: .5
Peter - I wondered about the other brake exploits (including yours) but
as the car is still relatively new I wondered what I should
expect. If the car had been over the one year (and therefore
out of the warrenty period) then I would have done some more
checking myself. At least now I know we can add it to the "to
do" list for the garage on Thursday.
RE: .7
Martin - Trust you to talk about Vaseline!
At the moment I don't see any battery dandruff around the
terminals it's down the side and mainly in the battery tray.
Thanks folks...
Dave
|
2228.32 | Old battery technology | EICMFG::JOCONNOR | Somebody else did it and ran away. | Mon Oct 17 1994 17:59 | 4 |
| I'm surprised that somebody is making cars without sealed for life
batteries nowadays.
John O'Connor
|
2228.33 | | FORTY2::HOWELL | Just get to the point... | Mon Oct 17 1994 18:07 | 1 |
| What car are we talking about, out of interest?
|
2228.34 | Ford Mondeo (2L Ghia estate) | VARDAF::CHURCH | Dave Church@VBE (DTN 828-6125) | Mon Oct 17 1994 20:12 | 1 |
|
|
2228.35 | Ford Mondeo problems - Meant to post this months ago | VARDAF::CHURCH | Dave Church@VBE (DTN 828-6125) | Mon Oct 17 1994 20:27 | 57 |
| Taken from French car mag which listed problems etc. for about 200 cars
Car: Ford Mondeo
Reliability: most frequent problems
Mechanical:
Gear Box: 2litre weakness of syncro for 2nd gear. Changing between
1st and 2nd gear is not smooth, mostly when the engine is
running with high revs. For the TD, jumps out of second.
New syncro since Sept. '93. On TD 5th hard/slow to engage.
Breaks: Noisy pads in front
Suspension: Noisy (silent blocks) at joints at rear
Active suspension:
Sport suspension sometimes locked in "Sport" position. New
electronic module in June '93. Some troubles due to bad
positioning of wiring on rear wheel housing.
Shock absorber:
Some rear shock absorber deficient - noise (rattle eg. due
to movement) - change under guarentee
Body work/Equipment:
Wind noise: whistles on low angles of window screen
Glove compartment:
Doesn't shut properly - rattles
Petrol flap:
Blocked with remote control - Cable badly adjusted in
factory and grips within tubing. Corrected in May '93
Speedo: Needle "vibrates"
Indicators: Airbag indicator - blinks. Connection on steering wheel
better connected since Nov. '93. Sometimes the indicator of
cooling liquid lights without reason. Due to fautly sensor.
Air vents: On '93 models, the lever breaks on the right hand side on
dashboard. Problem still continues on central air vents.
Seats: Creaks after 15,000 kms especially on the rear. Lock of the
back seat noisy.
Gear lever: "Ball" not properly fastened and twists
Vibrations: Central console rubbing type creak on uneven surfaced
road. 5th door plastic cover and rear shelf noisy.
Finish: Door covering (velours/velvet) comes unstuck just over the
arm rest. Central console vulnerable to marking from
scratches etc. Rear comparment noisy on "berline" 5 door.
|
2228.36 | Get rid of that white stuff PDQ! | CMOTEC::POWELL | Nostalgia isn't what it used to be, is it? | Tue Oct 25 1994 15:42 | 7 |
|
Dave, if you have white powdery stuff on the Battery tray, I'd wash it
off PDQ! It is acid and will continue to eat the metal even if it looks dry and
harmless - it ain't! As mentioned in a previous reply, use a solution of
Bicarbonate of Soda and rinse copiously with fresh water afterwards.
Malcolm.
|
2228.37 | First part solved (we hope) | VARDAF::CHURCH | Dave Church@VBE (DTN 828-6125) | Mon Oct 31 1994 11:15 | 29 |
2228.38 | just a thought | LEMAN::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux @GEO, DTN 821-4150 | Mon Oct 31 1994 13:37 | 5 |
2228.39 | certainly not the handbrake | VARDAF::CHURCH | Dave Church@VBE (DTN 828-6125) | Mon Oct 31 1994 14:37 | 17 |
| RE: .38
Patrick,
>> Sounds like the parking (hand) brake ...
No it happens even when you don't use it. The mechanic who test drove
the car said it's certainly an ABS problem and he has only heard of it
once before and he is not sure what the solution was! Anyway I'm
certainly not going to let this problem rest because I don't fancy the
warrenty running out and us being stuck with a nice bill when it
finally does go wrong/breaks...!
Dave
P.S. I'll dig out the photo negatives in the next couple of days for
you and then see about getting them to EHQ.
|