Conference terri::cars_uk

    I have an article somewhere at home on the webber injection system. it
    stated that it was a good way of boosting the power from a single carb
    while keeping the M.P.G. low but if you are after more grunt and
    nothing else you are better off with a set of twin 40s.
    
    Ian.

    Anyone want to buy a pair of 40DCOEs???
    7844-3232
    
    Simon

Anyone familiar with setting the idle speed on Bosch FI?  How on earth do you
do it???

Brian

(Alfa Spider, Bosch injection, idling at 1300rpm!)

1) Ask your local Alfa dealer how it's done
2) Ask Bosch how it's done (their address is in here somewhere...)
3) Find another car with the same ignition (some Fords, probably), buy the
   Haynes manual for that and read the relevant section
4) Find a "Haynes-type" manual for the Alfa (don't think there is a genuine
   Haynes one)
5) (Last resort) Adjust everything that looks adjustable until the desired
   effect is achieved.

Scott

The VW Scirocco has K-Jetronic FI and from what I remember the idle
speed is adjusted by means of a screw located near/on the end
connector of the accelerator cable.

Hope this helps.
Steve

>The VW Scirocco has K-Jetronic FI and from what I remember the idle
>speed is adjusted by means of a screw located near/on the end
>connector of the accelerator cable.

Yup, that's the way it worked on my Scirocco. Takes about 2 minutes to
adjust.

The butterflies are rod operated on the Alfa - from underneath the manifold!
Yes, there's a locking nut there which appears to be adjustable, if I could
get to it :-(  The only adjustment I've found that it really accessible is
the microswitch on the end of the butterfly operating rod which detects when
you take your foot off and shuts off the fuel until a pre-specified roadspeed/
revs combination (deceleration is *really* good!).

The dealer is uncooperative - he's a main Chrysler dealer who does Alfas on
the side, and my local body-shop person is not an engine expert.  God knows
what the injection is on our Ford, but it's definitely not Bosch (it is an
american Ford).

Right, this weekend I'll be tring to adjust the lock-nut.  Good job it's a
holiday weekend .... :-)

The one thing I did find when grubbing around in that tight compartment is the
attachment point for the cruise control, so I can get comfortable in the
driver's seat on highways ....

Thanks for the tips.		Brian

    On K-Jetronic, the idle adjustment is done via a screw in a small air
    tube, this shouldn't be anything to do with the throttle linkage.  
    This tube allows the defined amount of air to get into the inlet
    manifold, when the butterflies are closed; hence idle speed.
    
    If you've got a throttle closed switch on the butterflies,
    then I doubt that you have the Bosch K-Jetronic (mechanical) fuel
    injection, as it relies on steady fuel pressure to keep the injectors
    open (they are all continuously open when running), and to keep the 
    air flow sensor plate/fuel metering stable.
    
    If it can shut off the injector supply temporarily, I would guess it is
    an electonic version (???).  I understand there are quite a few variants of 
    Bosch FI (such as L-Jetronic; with Digifant EM).
    
    Does yours use Electronic Engine Management?  
    
    However this information is based purely around UK VW experience.
    Robbie.

    
    Excellent Chilton manual on US fuel injection systems being sold off
    cheap in Reading.
    
    Colin Osborne on 7899 5255 (@RDL) if u want more info

The system is definitely Bosch (I know because all the componenst have Bosch
stamped on them!).  As to mechanical or electronic, I suspect electronic as
there is no sign of a mechanical pump anywhere  (my very limited knowledge of
mechanical systems came in useful here!).

I didn't do anything to the car this weekend as we decided it would be a nice 
idea to drive up to Mass. for the holiday weekend, see some friends, and give
our daughter her birthday presents in person.  Good food, good company, lots of
snow (and salt on the roads) and the Decwreck turned in 29 mpg, which equates to
around 36/37 mpg on real gallons.  Not bad for a clapped out Taurus, *and* we
averaged 62 mph (including going through New York City) - but don't tell the 
state troopers!

If anyone's got any helpful suggestions for removing the crud that seems to 
gather around the plugs in the Alfa (twin cam, plugs right on top), without
dropping it into the cyliders, they'd be very welcome!

Back to injection systems, though.  The Ford seems to have a fuel problem.
Symptoms are that it starts easily, runs smoothly while it warms up but, very
occasionally, coughs and runs roughly when hot and cruising.  Foot hard down
seems to make it worse, and easing off for a while brings full power back.  I've
checked out the pressurized system in the tank, and that seems fine (there's
even a pump to pre-load it when you first turn on the ignition!).  Mixture seems
good, at least from looking at a plug.  Sounds like starvation.  Ideas?

Brian

    
    Re Alfa crud.
    
    I had a twin cam, & used to scrape the worst gunge loose, spray/soak 
    cylinder head in WD40, & then vacuum it out. Made up a funny extension 
    piece out of a rubber tube. Much better than bores full of nasty bits.
    
    Didn't help the body gently rusting away from the mechanicals though
    .....

I went chasing the tick-over problem in the Alfa but before adjusting anything
I did a minor service on it - new plugs, general clean-up, new oil and filter,
so on.

It now ticks over smoothly at 1000 rpm!

The only difference I can think of is that I threw out the worn out Bosch plugs
and replaced them with the recommended Champion N5Cs (can't get Lodge HLEs over
here).  It's had the oil and filter changed before, and that didn't make any
difference.  The plugs are N5C, not RN5C as the resistor versions weren't in 
stock.  In fact I was lucky to find N5C!

The new plugs seem to have put some pep back into the engine.  Can't comment on
the fuel economy yet.  (Mind you, I have been driving the DECwreck for the last
couple of weeks!)

Thoughts?	Brian

Brian, your fix sounds a lot easier than my f/i fix!! :-)

Dave

	I find that cleaning the plugs, leads and rotor arm generally tones up
	the old tickover.  I usually use copper-cored plugs.  Also, a good 
	country blast cleans up the plugs - too many short journeys on a nice 
	rich chokey mixture coats the plugs in carbon.  Over winter it's easy
	for dampness to creep into the electrics, not enough to kill your 
	engine, just enough to make it unwell.  Cleaning the wiring keeps that
	at bay.  The only Italian engines I've ever owned destroyed most plugs
	fairly quickly...

	Dave

Reference .18

It was/is a summer as well as winter problem.  Driving is mostly cruising the
highways at 55-70 mph, or stuck in slow moving traffic - therefore, variety -
and I put my foot down occasionally.  My average journey is probably between
10 and 20 miles.  Damp?  In Washington DC?  What's that?!!  Humid in summer 
perhaps, but the humidity between September and May seems to be around 40-60%RH
and I think it's rained about 4 times since last summer.  Oh yes, it snowed a
couple of times too, I think ....

Certainly keeping the engine tuned and cleaned does keep it on form, but I
really don't,understand why changing the plugs should reduce the tick-over by
2-300 rpm.  In fact, I'd expect that dirty plugs would reduce the tickover and
that cleaning them would increase it, wouldn't you?

The only other Alfas I've owned have been carburettor models, and I must admit
that they seemed to eat plugs, as did yours.  A set of HLEs which were supposed
to last 25-30,000 miles were usually out by 10,000.  I did buy some Champions
once, but they wouldn't work, so I took them back (bad misfiring, rough tickover
and poor starting).

Heck, who's complaining? :-)  Wait for a few weeks and see if the saga continues
and I may be back into this topic!

Brian

Turned out to be a combination of several tiny, tiny things that added up to
a lot.
	1. Slow running adjustment slightly out.
	2. Bypass pipe had a pinprick hole in it.
	3. Faulty relay in the control unit = hard cold starting.
	4. Dirty injectors.
	5. Bad earth on coil (mounted on crash box, right where water gets in).
	6. Air-flow sensor not completely smooth.
and, I cleaned the whole area thoroughly.

It now ticks over at 1300 rpm cold and 900-950 hot.  Not completely sorted
yet as it's still a little lumpy, but getting there.

Brian

Not sure this is the right note, but the word injection does apply ...

I've got a problem with the injection system on a BMW 323i (1985 model).
The problem is that the fuel pump is not being "activated". I have checked
the wiring as far as is possible without a circuit diagram, and found that
power is not being supplied to the pump. If I jump directly from the battery
to the fuse for the pump, the pump springs into life and stays turning.

I assume that the pump is activated by something in the injection system
somewhere, but have no idea what. I also have no idea how the injection system
itself works, but assume there must be a flow meter or pressure monitor which
is used to activate/deactivate the pump, and I further assume that this is no
longer working as it should do.

The problem started as an intermittent one. If when turning on the ignition,
there was no brief burst of sound from the fuel pump, then the car wouldn't
start. Leaving the car for some period of time sometimes helped, but now it
appears to have stopped for good.

Well, that's about it.

Any ideas ???

Mark

    Have you checked the fuses?
    
    I think the pump runs all the time when ignition is on - it doesn't
    have anything to do with the injection system.
    
    If the fuses are allright, check the wirings and the *connections* 
    once again.
    
    - Jyri -

No power is getting to the fuse. 

Yes, the pump runs all the time when the engine is running, but when you first 
turn on the ignition, it runs for a VERY short time (milli-seconds) and then 
turns off ... I assume it must switch off when the pressure reaches a certain 
level (or some such). It's the "some such" that I need to identify.

At the moment, when I turn on the ignition, no power is getting to the pump at 
all.

    An obscure possible: Check if your car has a impact inertia trip switch
    (often mounted low down behind the dash). This is designed to
    disconnect the supply to the fuel pump in the event of a collision,
    thus preventing fuel being pumped into a potentially dangerous engine
    compartment.
    
    This may have a bad/intermittent connection, or be randomly tripping.
    
    Richard

That's an interesting idea ... the problem initially seemed to be related
to the position of the car. If it was parked on an incline, with the nose up,
it wouldn't start. Rolling it back onto the flat, it started.

What I need is a circuit diagram. I'm back in the UK tomorrow, so I'll have
a look in a Haynes manual if I can find one.

I've managed to get a copy of the Haynes manual for a Pug 1.9i which also has 
a Bosch injection system. This doesn't mention an impact sensor, but does have 
a relay which appears to activate the pump. This could also be the thing which 
acts as the rev limiter since it's called something like a "tachymetric relay" 
or "pump relay". This box is linked to the injection system control box, so I
assume the problem could be in either of the two boxes ...

Mark

 I have to get it to the garage to be able to sell it :-)

The "tacho-something" relay on the injection system is used to sense if the
engine is running or not. The idea is that when the engine stops, for whatever
reason, the fuel pump switches off so that fuel is not pumped out of a possibly
fractured pipe in the event of an accident. To enable the engine to start in
the first place the relay is called for a short period when the ignition is
initially switched on. The pump usually runs for a second or so, this is
normally enough to just top up the pressure accumulator to enable the engine
to start. Once the engine fires up the relay is called permanently until the
engine is stopped. If the accumulator pressure is low, switching the ignition
on/off/on four or five times, with a short pause between each cycle, can usually
get up enough pressure to start the engine.

The problem you could be having could include - relay being called for too short
a period at initial startup - faulty accumulator loosing pressure - faulty
fuel cut-off solenoid allowing accumulator pressure to drain - fuel leaks
somewhere between the pump/accumulator/cut-off solenoid/metering unit.

Best of luck.

-John.

Thanks for that. It appear that the relay isn't being called at all on
switch-on ...

Any idea how much this "tacho-something" thingy is, and more importantly,
where it might be located on a BMW 323i. When back in the UK, I couldn't
manage to gets my hands on a Haynes manual for this model :-(

    You really need to get a diagram before spending money on the relay. As
    someone mentioned earlier - it could be that the relay is not being
    energised by something else in the system.
    
    Aren't these injection systems fun ;-)
    
    - John.

Problem resolved with the BMW. The fuel pump relay was broken ... a dry joint
on the relay. Found out a lot about how the injection system works, especially
since we didn't have a wiring diagram !!!

Decided to repair the relay (not just a relay infact) rather than pay the
40 quid for a new one !!! Typical BMW prices ...

I wouldn't go that far ... but, yes, it is a little pricey !!!

There are about 20 components, a pcb, a seven way connector and a plastic
box to consider.

It would be interesting to know how much the same part costs for other
Bosch fuel injection systems. The Pug 1.9 gti has a very similar, but not
plug compatible box to go with its Bosch fuel injection system.

In case anyone out there is into DIY on cars (are there? :^) ), I just received
by mail (after a long wait, because it was sent interoffice!) a book on fuel
injection systems by Mitchell.  I can THOROUGHLY recommend it for any FI problem
on European (read Non-UK) and Japanese (read Tin Box) cars.

Brian

    	Checked the float. It does! 
    
       "Fuel pumps for injection systems don't work with carbs." Oh dear,
    more expense. Don't know what machine mine is out of. Should have
    realised there would be a difference. Would guess from the rate it goes 
    and it's size compared with photos I've seen of facet pumps that it's
    for an injection system.
    
	Looks like I'll try the right pump and a regulator. Thanks for the
    reply. Is the high pressure from an injection pump certain to
    overcome/wreck a regulator?
    
    		Jeremy
    
    		Jeremy   	 

    
    Try another electic pump.
    
    My MG Midget under restoration uses a neat little Lucas pump which
    stops pumping as soon as the Carb float chambers are full.
    
    I think they cost no more than 20 quid new, and not very much at all
    from a scrap yard (though take a battary with you to test it while your
    there!)
    
    Steve

    	re -.1. Someone else mentioned an MG B pump as a possibility.
    Probably the same as the Midget pump by the sound of it. Not that many
    MG's in scrap yards nowadays. Think I'll give Lucas a ring. Does anyone
    know of a car model with an electrically fed carb that I'm likely to
    find in a scrap yard? 
    
    		Jeremy

    Minis use (or used to use) this type of pump - I think it was made by
    SU, I suspect that cars like the Allegro (all-aggro!), the BMC
    1100/1300 also used the same sort of pump. 
    
    Be aware that they used to give problems due to corrosion of the
    diaphram contacts - but I think that most of the problem was due to the
    stupid place that the manufacturers mounted them (exposed to all the
    muck thrown up by the rear wheels).
    
    - John.

In my Mini-ing days, there used to be a replacment pump around 
which was actually sealed against the wind and weather (and the odd small
boulder).

Just about any of the old BMC cars had self-regulating electric pumps.
They're the ones that go  "clunkclunkclunkclunkclunk"
when you switch on, then "clunkclunk.clunk..clunk....clunk.......clunk
..................clunk................................clunk", once
they get up to pressure.


Ian

And why would you need to go to the expense of a pressure regulator if you fit
the correct pump?

    	One of these self regulating mini/allegro/mg pumps sounds like it
    will do the job. It will have to be fitted close to the tank and back
    wheels, but I should be able to rig up a shield to keep the worst of
    the mud and water off. Thanks for the suggestions folks.
    
    		Jeremy 

SU pumps come in two basic flavors: pump or suck. The former is mounted
near the fuek tank  and the other near the engine.

Don't know off the top of my head how to tell the difference.

I have an interesting little problem with the Solex carb on the BMW 2002
I have recently bought.

When cold, the car starts fine, and runs fine. If I stop the engine and
restart it within 10 to 20 minutes, it also starts and runs fine. But, if
I stop for more than 20 minutes, it's a pig to start.

It appears to be flooding itself, which since the engine isn't running
I find a bit strange, but since this is my first experience of a fixed
jet carb (always SUs or Strombergs in the past), I'm open to suggestions
as to possible/probable cause.

I have checked the fuel level and this is OK. 

    Faulty Automatic choke possibly??

    If it had one, it might be, but alas ...
    
    The thing I can't understand is how the petrol is getting into
    the engine to flood it. It appears to need to be pumped up and
    out of the float chamber to do so, and this shouldn't be possible
    with the engine stopped.

So, would anyone like to explain to me how a fixed jet carb works ???

There appear to be a few jets, an accelerator pump and a butterfly valve,
but I can't quite make out how it all fits together.

It would appear that the accelerator pump, pumps fuel into the intake
manifold when you hit the loud pedal, but when running at a constant speed,
does nothing. I assume the jets provide fuel as a result of the induction
from the engine sucking in air through the carb. What I don't see is which
jet is active when, and how a "hand-over" is achieved (if it occurs) between
the different jets.

Also, how does a twin choke carb work ??? I assume that the second choke 
must come into operation at times of high induction, but how ???

Hi,

  Can anybody recomend somewhere near by that will service/rebuild a webber
twin choke carburettor for me ?

	Thanks.

		Barrie.

nearby to where ?

    
    Phegre?
    
    Mark

Re -2.


 Ooops

   I live in Goring and work at DECpark in Reading.

Re -1.

 What/who is Phegre


	Thanks.

		Barrie.

	What's a webber?

	-John

    Some sort of a "Spyder" I assume.
    
    Laurie.

    It's a hidden node on the LARVAE cluster. You can bribe IS for the
    information to connect to it, giving you response times of a billionth
    of a nano-second.
    
    Dougie
    

Weber is a make of carb. I had one fitted to an escort once!

Ian

    re: .57
    
    Ths is tru I us ths nod and as yu cn se I cn typ rlly fst nw.

    Nah, you don't say....and I thought that it was a person who made feet
    for aquatic animals, and if two people upset them they'd strangle
    them....thus the meaning of a twin choke webber..
    Did they not also make boats ?? I Can remember things called the webber
    floating 40's and 45's.... :-)
    
    Alan.

Now, now. No need to get all uptight about it! Someone asked what a 
Weber was, so I answered.


	Ian

    
    Well since no-one's going to answer Barrie's question, I will! :^)
    
    Phegre is a rolling road and WeBer specialist in Phoenix Green (just
    up the A30, London bound, from Basingstoke). There's a note early on
    (the 20s?) about them and a DIR/TIT=ROLLING will probably find their
    address and telephone number.
    
    Mark

 Re -1

  Thanks Mark.

	Barrie.

    	Alternatively you can do a simple rebuild yourself. Find a local
    Weber stockist, can be found under Carburettor in the yellow pages. Get
    a gasket kit, which will cost around #12 or so. This will contain a set
    of gaskets and diaphrams for accelerator pumps etc. Use the Haynes 
    manual for your car to help you dismantle and replace the appropriate 
    parts. This will do to sort a lot of problems with the carb. Other
    problems, like worn holes where throttle shafts pass through the body
    are more difficult and probably solved by a new carb. I recently used a
    gasket kit on the Weber twin choke carb on my kit car. No problems at
    all. While the carb is in bits clean everything up including the jets.
    Don't poke wire through the jets as this alters their size and upsets
    the amount of petrol going through. 
    
    	Hope this helps.          

    The ford VV carbs have a poor reputation, but most of this is due to a
    rubber diaphragm that controls the jet, this often gets punctured
    especially on the early carbs (old ones had black diaphragm ,new ones
    had a blue one).There is an easy way to tell if this is the fault, take
    the air cleaner off and rev the engine slowly, the slide plate visible
    from the top should open progessively as you press the accelerator, if
    it stays closed at low revs then only opens half way when you reach full
    throttle then this is the fault. They cost about 4 pounds.
    
                   					Andy

Andy,

Thanks, I'll have a look tomorrow night before I start, I believe that the local
garage did replace one of the diaphragms, he mentioned something about
changing one of them and that the Carb did have an old black one.  I know, from
checking in the Haynes manual, that there is another diaphragm and I intend to
check this one before considering changing the whole unit for another new one.

My problem is that although I'm no genius when it comes to diagnosing car
trouble I'm not convinced that this problem is solely associated to the Carb
and am confused as to the worsening of the condition when I have a full tank.

Graham.

    
    Is the fuel tank breather blocked? (Or whatever fancy device serves
    this purpose in todays environmentally friendly cars :-)  ) 

Elaine,

I'll be very surprised if changing the Carb does fix this problem and that's why
I'm reluctant to just swap it for a new one.  I'm going to check the fuel pump
and tank breather as well as trying to refurb the existing Carb before buying a
replacement Webber.

In the absence of any "that happened to me" stories I'm making a start tonight
and hopefully by Monday I'll have fixed this problem.

Graham.

    
    I had a similar problem on an old Sunbeam Stilletto - it was a faulty
    condenser - I think you said you'd changed it - but I had too - and
    the new one was faulty! - may be worth trying again before buying any
    expensive bits, you can always keep it as a spare!

Thanks Andy, Elaine and Derek for your suggestions on what to check with regard
to my idling problem.  When I started first thing Saturday I'd agreed with my
wife that I'd work on the old Carb till 12:00 and if I couldn't fix it I'd buy
a new Webber, as the Webber Distributor is open till 1:00 pm on Saturdays.

Early Saturday I checked the fuel tank breather, and replaced the Condenser with
no success.  Removed the old VV Carb and decided to replace the other diaphragm
and gaskets and used compressed air to clean the jets out.  Put the VV Carb back
on and still no joy.

12:00 arrived and I decided I'd had enough.

Replaced Ford VV with Webber Carb and car runs better, and idles great.

Thoroughly recommend Webber Carbs if you ever need to replace one.  The 
instructions were clear and simple to follow and the Carb kit contained all the
required parts to allow for refitting of cables and hoses even the idle and
mixture settings were already set correctly.

The car sounds and drives better than ever.

Hopefully that's it as far as this problem is concerned.

Graham.

    Maybe too late now as you've fixed this, but I had similar problems
    once and it turned out to be a loose exhaust pipe at the manifold, this
    changed the engine breathing characteristics and made idling very
    difficult.
    
    Richard 

	I once had an old fiat that I could never get to idle properly, when
	I finally gave in and took it to a garage, they said that the carb
	was too warn (which bits I do not know).

	Dave
	

	Yep, Webbers are very nice...

    Warm carbs was also the problem with the original MG Maestro's - They
    (I think) had a couple of Webers which just got cooked due to the
    exhaust manifold heat, caused all sorts of fuel vapourisation problems.
    
    
    Stevie

    
    Can anyone help me!(again)
                       I find that when I put my foot down when in second
    gear,the car speeds up and then near 5000 rpm the car seems to do what
    can only be described as"kicksdown" and just lets fly.I wouldn't be
    complaining if it happened every time,but alas it doesn't.Could it be
    something sticking? The previous scenario also occurs in third gear.
    The car is running beautifully but just for this serge.(It comes in
    handy when over-taking RS Turbo's (Hey Gary! 8-)  )).
    
    
    
    
    	Any Ideas
    
    			Andy....Back after my Tour of Duty...
    

            <<< DLOACT::APP$DISK:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARBUFFS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                 -< Carbuffs >-
===========================================================================
====,
Note: 245.311                       Carb Questions                  311 of 
311
OASS::STDBKR::Burden_d "Synchromesh gearboxes ar    17 lines  18-NOV-1993 
12:32
                 -< Weber 36/32 help needed - running rich? >-
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
I've replaced the fuel pump, filter and most of the lines between the gas
tank and the Weber 36/32 DFEV (maybe it's the 36/34...) and now it seems to
be running rich.  It bucks a little at constant throttle below 3000rpm and
stumbles under WOT, but backing off just a bit clears it out.  The car
seems to have better acceleration now, but it also seems to be drinking
fuel at a tremendous rate.

The pump I bought is identical to the one I replaced, but the fuel filter
appears to have better flow.  Could that cause too much fuel being
delivered?  I see a few options, either fiddle with the carb or install a
pressure regulator to stem the flow of fuel.

I'll check the specs on the pump tonight to see how many PSI it is pushing,
but any guess on what a 36/32 DFEV would like on an 1800cc engine revving
up to 6000rpm?

Dave

I've discovered that trying to make a DFEV into a DFV does not work.  The 'E' 
stands for Electric, as in the type of choke it has.  Plugging the wire back 
into the choke does wonders for driveability and fuel mileage.....:-)

Dave

    I suppose this should go in this note...
    
    I'm looking for a 6V electric fuel pump to fit to an elderly BMW 1800.
    Does anybody have any idea where I might be able to order such a part ?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Paul

    
    Try Linwar Motors, 40-44 Virginia St, Southport, Lancashire
        Phone :  0704 - 540047       
    
    They advertise as specialists in early model BMW parts. 

    Just to answer my own question - 
    
    I ordered both a 6V electrical fuel pump, and the original mechanical
    one, from:
    
    Burlen Services in the UK tel: + 41 202 396 400
    
    Cost was GBP 57.50 and GBP 15.60 respectively.
    
    Thanks for your suggestions though.
    
    Paul