Conference terri::cars_uk

    Switzerland expensive ? yes but only for manpower related buys.
    Products are subject to ICHA/WUST, very similar to VAT with a flat
    6.3% rate.
    
    Japanese cars are well established in Switzerland, like in most
    non car production countries.

    
    	How much will Elans sell for ? I don't know, but I hope it will
    be much, much more than the price I will pay for mine ! I have
    absolutely no qualms about taking bucket loads of money off anyone
    stupid enough to give it to me... Then of course I can use all my
    profit to pay for the second Elan that I'll be prepared to wait for,
    and to pay a sensible price for...:-)
    
    	Rat gloats...

>>obviously the case in some of the adverts) - I blame Thatcher

whats she to do with Mazda's policy of restricting the number of MX5's it
produces?


...art

re.4 
    I don't think its Mazda at fault here, isn't there a restriction
    on the number of cars the Japanese are allowed to import into the
    UK?
    If so, then I blame Thatcher - I thought she was all for free trade,
    the market economy, poll tax, etc, etc...
    
    p.s. I knew it would provoke somebody...

    re.2
    I suppose I have to agree (all be it grudgingly), if someone is
    stupid enough to buy an ugly Japanese, FWD 'sports car' with a Lotus
    badge on it, then I wouldn't mind taking their money of 'em either,
    they deserve no better....
    
                                
    

    
    If you think the UK (with it's 11% limit ) is bad , try :-
    	
    France	= 3%
    Italy	= 2000.  (All 4WD as well from what i hear).
    
        Nigel

    p.s.  I suppose that your Lancia is all Thatcher's fault as well...
    p.p.s Who paid for lunch ??
    

>>re.4 
    I don't think its Mazda at fault here, isn't there a restriction
    on the number of cars the Japanese are allowed to import into the
    UK?
    If so, then I blame Thatcher - I thought she was all for free trade,
    the market economy, poll tax, etc, etc...
    
    p.s. I knew it would provoke somebody...
>>

Not quite...
if the above was the case then why are lesser japanese cars not commanding
premium prices? It *IS* due to Mazda restricting supply of the cars.

rat...
where would austin rover be now if the UK allowed unrestricted sales of 
japanese motors?!

...art

    Look at the French car industry - doing alright - agree?
    Look at the Italian car industry - doing alright too - yep?
    
    Look at the UK 'car' industry - up s%^t creek - or what?
    
    The trouble with the Brits is they do things in half measures, 11%
    ought to be either 'as much as they want' or (like our EEC cousins
    (and Japan if I'm not mistaken)) an amount so small it doesn't really 
    matter to the native industries.
    
    p.s. Whats my Lancia got to do with anything?
    p.p.s Larry.

    re.8
    Austin Rover would probably be out of business (not such a bad thing
    some might think)
                                               
                 OR...
    
    It MIGHT (ok,ok it's a long shot) be producing cars that actually
    compete with the land of the rising sun. Picture the MX5 with an
    MG badge, I wonder how many more would have been sold...
    
    Dream, dream, dream....

Someone said the MX5 was FWD; according to the ads, it's RWD...
Scott.

    I think the reference was to the Lotus (which is front wheel drive).	
    The Mazda is, as you point out, rear wheel driven.
    
    Ian.

I think that the mail refering to ugly front wheel drive japanese car meant 
the Lotus.  Of course, you'll correct me if I'm wrong.

As for price, the traditional MG market was for young (pre-children) couples.
They could have an MG for the same price as a straight forward saloon car.  So,
given the choice, they took the MG.  Lotus have attempted to go up market from
there.  Let's face it, performance costs money.  But the Lotus does cost less
than a Porshe, so maybe would be Porshe owners will defect.  The MX-5 is a 
no-frills back to basics old fasioned rear wheel drive front engined and much
closer to the concept (and price) of the old MG.   I think that the MX-5 is
a little over priced; a price the same as a good hot hatch should be the limit.

As someone said, it's a shame that BL didn't produce it, 'cos I think that's
what an MG would look like today.  However, time and time again, the British
car industry has proved itself incapable of producing decent cars.  The only
reason that we're getting better is that we're collaberating with the Japanese
who seem to be going from strength the strength on all fronts.

Dave

I think the mention of FWD was referring to the new Elan (it mentioned 
Lotus badges!!)
Mazda are currently allowed to import 25000 cars p.a. of which 2000 are going
to be MX-5's this year. To do even this many means that they have had to 
decrease the number of the new, very popular, 323's so much that demand for them
is also far outstripping supply, with delivery dates of July/August, currently
the same as the MX-5. It's just that with the MX people are less prepared to 
wait, as they want them for the summer, and therefore are prepared to pay
over the odds.
If Mazda had brought them out in the winter (as Porsche did with the 944 Cabrio),
there would probably be less of a problem, (2nd hand (and I mean only 3-4
months old, ( I know of 2)) 944 Cabrio's are now selling at a "premium" of 
minus 10-12K, (also they were _way_ over priced!!))

Just my 10 cents worth ...

Peter

	Cynical as I am, I'd say that all of these people who are 
	offering MX5s for immediate delivery have close connections with the 
	dealer network somehow or other. If you were to have walked in
	off the street the day of the release you'd as like as not found
	yourself way down the pecking order.

	I would most certainly not touch such a car even if I wanted one
	which I don't.

	A & M says that UK car sales in the last 3 months are 27% down 
	on last year. The way I see it is that strange happenings such
	as this are the last fling before the slump. It'll soon be the case
	that you can get whatever you want without having to pay extra (or
	even the full price for that matter) - MX5, Elan, XJ220, Ferrari
	- take your pick.

	Incidently if you can get August delivery yourself(as suggested in
	a previous note) why even consider an OTT car. Normally people
	wait until August to get the new year letter not pay more not to
	have it.

	-John

OK, I stand corrected, the reference was to the Lotus.

Re: .13:
>> British car industry has proved itself incapable of producing decent cars

What about companies like Marlin, Moss, ...?
Now they produce good British cars!

Scott  :-)

Ouch!  I can't let that pass without comment.  Kit cars and specialist
manufacturers are all very low volume (I wonder what percentage of all
new cars are kit/component cars).  Whilst happy that they exist, 'cos that
means that I can have an interesting car without going bankrupt and have the
pleasure of building it myself.  By decent cars, I don't just mean 
sports cars (even if I include hot hatches, which I don't), I mean all cars
from the small town car to the executive express.  Most of the niche car
manufacturers aim towards the sports/leisure end of the market.  The end that
sees the squeeze first in a slump.  Britain seems to have a healthy industry
producing good and interesting cars (Lotus, TVR, Ginetta etc) but we fall
down in producing the rest.   It's not as if we don't have the expertise, 
we (and by that, I guess that I mean Rover) just cannot apply it to the
mass market.

Dave

As an aside, my two year old daughter saw a cream Morgan on the TV last
night and said "Look, a Marlin"...

    re. 17
    Here, here. Whilst being happy that the UK niche car makers are
    thriving (RR,Aston Martin,Morgan,TVR,Lotus(I suppose) etc..), I
    am sad, no not sad, sickended, by the fact that ARG (who have names
    like MG and Healey at their disposal) couldn't see what any 5 year
    old could - the fact that an open top sportster with an MG badge
    on it, produced in 1990 (not 1999) would have sold twice as many
    as anything Mazda, Toyota or Nissan could come up with (as long
    as it looked ok, drived ok, and was reliable)   ...ok forget the
    whole thing.
    I've lost my faith.

I agree entirely; Austin Rover have loused up their chance here and missed a
glorious opportunity to revive MGs, Triumphs, and so on.  The point I was making
was that the success of specialist / kit manufacturers should have made it
obvious that there are good British cars, there is a demand for them, and that
the larger manufacturers should have realised this long ago, got their act
together and be selling MGDs (surely the logical name?) NOW!!!

Scott.

    
    re:.-last few
    
    This is a bit of a rat hole for an MX-5 note, but anyway...
    
    As I'm leaving Digital on the 27th to join Rover, I've got an idea
    of what they are planning to do. All I can say is don't despair. The
    introduction of the 200 and 400 is just the start of a complete model
    replacement AND addition programme. Expect some real innovation.
    
    I can't say anymore without a PID  :-)
    
    David.
    

Well,

I love the look of the Lotus Elan, apparently it had rave reviews on Top Gear
(Which I unfortunately missed, so if anyone has the tape, I'd love to borrow
it!).

If only they did a open top car based on the Renault 5 GT Turbo engine, etc.
Then I might be able to afford it.

Mark.

    ...Reliant SS1 any day.

    RE .21
    see "Seen in Passing note for wish to be granted......"
    

	Don't know if anyone's mentioned it, but it's worth buying this months
	CAR magazine.

	They have a group "comparison" with the Elan, TVR S2, MX5 and BMW Z1.

	It's worth a read.

	Gordon
	

    I read an interesting article of the new Elan. The chap liked the car,
    but found it too predictable, and not at all interesting to drive. He
    said that it could not be regarded as a "true" sports car in the old
    tradition. One go was enough for him ...

  Mark

This reminds me of an article that I read about the new 911s, they were thought
to be vice-less and, therefore, not interesting.  Does this mean that the Lotus
is just too well sorted to be a real sports car?

Back to the subject of the MX-5.  Does this mean that the MX-5's rear wheel 
drive gives it nicer-feeling handling characteristics?  Rear-wheel drive is
definitely different, and I prefer it.

Dave

    Since I'm stuck out here in Europe and CAR is too expensive (and
    a month out of date), does any body mind telling me what conclusions
    CAR came to after its comparison of the afore mentioned cars.

            <<< Note 1001.28 by RUTILE::WILCOCKSON "pooped again" >>>

>>	what conclusions
>>	CAR came to after its comparison of the afore mentioned cars.

Z1 - too slow, over-priced, totally impractical
TVR - can't remember, except it has the best engine/exhaust sound.
Miata - alright
Lotus - the best, fastest ...



alright so I'm biased!


I'll bring the magazine along to Bretts later.

Graham

	The Z1 holds the dubious honour of having the highest cost/power
	ratio of any car in the UK.

	-John

    
    What a cheapskate Alan.
    
    I'll bet you'll get someone else to buy you your leaving drinks
    in the bar. :-)
    
    Nigel

What's all this rubbish about the Elan, not being a sports car because its
too predictable!

Taken to it's extreme, a sports car is no good unless it suddenly veers off
the road!

Mark (Make mine an Elan)

    As we sink further in to the MX5 rat-hole (I only mention the MX5
    because it was mentioned in the note topic) may I just say that
    my reputation for not buying drink is totally unfounded.
    
    Where's Bretts?

>< Note 1001.32 by TASTY::JEFFERY "Is "Bones" the real McCoy ??" >

>Taken to it's extreme, a sports car is no good unless it suddenly veers off
>the road!

	Very, very nearly correct. Ask any 911 driver. A sports car in fact
	would veer off the road in the hands of anyone other than the gallant
	hero who drives it against all the odds, in all wethers, and still
	manages to keep up with a supermini.

	-John

    I think it was related to the skill factor involved in driving
    the car. The Elan can be driven by anyone. It's just a "sorted"
    two seater hot hatch.

    I can't halp feeling that a car that is too easy to drive is
    perhaps a little dangerous ... it gives the driver confidence
    where perhaps it is not due.


 Mark

    I disagree, if a car is safe and fast in the hands of a novice,
    then surely it's safer and faster in the hands of an expert (which
    of course we all are). I'd rather go fast in a car I know isn't
    going to spin me of into a ditch than one which is known to do just
    that, especially if I'm the passenger (because as we all know, it's
    the other drivers that are novices...).

    The implication is that it may "seem" fast and safe to the novice, 
    but is it ??? If the car requires a degree of skill to drive fast,
    then a novice will have to drive it slowly ...

  Mark

    So, I'm a novice, I go and buy a 911, and then I drive it slowly.
    
    Got ya.

    
    What i think Alan is trying to say, is that until you've done something
    stupid, you won't know you have to drive it slowly.  Now if it's
    a well 'sorted' car you will be shaken, but not stirred.  In a 911
    ( by all acounts) you may be stirred.
    
    Nigel
    

    Don't remember any 911s falling off the road round Ferney, not like 
    some MR2s we could mention, do you Nigel?

    What I'm trying to say is that if you've got a chance of two cars
    one of which you know is alot safer than the other 'on the limit',
    both of which are fun to drive, then why go for the dangerous one.
    Unless to happen to have a death wish.

I don't understand the complaints of a car being too predictable

Surely a predictable car will let you know when it is close to the limit, and
allow the driver to change his driving.

My Renault for instance feels very different in the wet, and so encourages
slower smoother driving. The GTE 16V, for instance, feels no different in the
wet, and people don't realise the limit until they hit it!

I don't think that sort of predictability is a good thing.

Most accounts say that the Elan is fun to drive, and faster than my R5GTT.

That's good enough for me!!

Mark.

    I may not be able to find this issue of CAR mag. Could you send
    me a copy of the article ? Patrick Chevaux @NCE. Thanks in advance.

    Could I have seen a few of these MX-5 things driving round Geneva
    in the last few weeks ??? Are they available yet ???

 Mark

    Yes, I have seen several driving around Geneva, and the Garage
    Chevalley (their small garage in Grand Saconnex!) has one - looks
    very nice.
    
    Paul

The note mentioned in the previous note was from me, I can only assume that the
fleet companies are having to pay full price for them, and are of course passing
that price on to the users ... this would seem to be borne out by the quotes,
as list price is not too dissimilar  from an MR2 T-bar, but the lease cost is
considerably higher!

Oh well, Jane's one was the October delivery date one ... the one she ordered
privately is due in August ... let's hope they can stick to that ..

Peter

	Saw one (red) while over in England at the Easter weekend in Spilsby.
	Even looked better in 'the flesh'. 


	Followed a Mazda out of The Hague yesterday which at first glance looked
	like a 626 Coupe, but had an MX6 badge and rather fat tyres, is this
	new/old or a windup ?

	Gordon

    re-1
    
    No Windup there used to be a Mazda MX6 (Not sure what it was based
    on though).
    
    Grant

	It seems to be not so much a question of "how much", 
	but "when". I've had an MX-5 on order since January
	and was originally told I'd get delivery around May.
	The dealer has now been told "back end of August"
	and has seen only two cars since launch. Needless to
	say, he isn't too pleased either.

	Tim

Tim,
Which dealer is yours ordered through ... we're kind of hoping that the one
we ordered 2-3 weeks ago will be delivered August/September time too ... the 
dealer ours is through has had 3 so far (plus their own racing one), and
has a fourth as a demonstrator (bought in a friends name etc. etc. as they are
not allowed to own one themselves!!). They are expecting numbers 5 and 6 in 
August, plus maybe number 7 (ours!) ..

Peter

>Which dealer is yours ordered through 

	It's ordered through my parents' local garage in 
	Northumberland as at the time all the dealers in this
	area (said they) had long waiting lists. Seems like
	Mazda haven't done a good job of keeping dealers
	informed. Mine is trying to find out more information
	and will write to everyone on his list when he gets it. 

	If mine doesn't arrive before the end of the summer
	I'll (attempt to) get my deposit back and hold off 
	until next spring when perhaps supply and demand will
	be better balanced.

	Tim

    Saw an MX5 yesterday in Hungerford, Bright blue, foreign plates, I
    couldn't tell where from as I was driving past it at the time. One
    thing I did notice was a 3rd rear brake light in the middle of the rear
    built in spoiler/come boot lid, is this standard?
    

    re .55
    
    The 3rd brake light is a U.S. DOT requirement. Other than that I
    can't explain your sighting.
    

re .55

It is not uncommon to see cars belonging to US service personnel in the general
area you mention.

Perhaps one of them has bought a US-spec car from the PX?

/. Ian .\

    I've noticed several MX6s in the UK over the last few weeks, but not
    previously. (I'm sure they are not all the same car!)
    
    I'm not a great expert on 626s, but could agree they were all coupes, I
    think registrations have been both "F" & "G".
    
    Novel idea: How about they are selling them here?

I know dealers are not known as a great source of accuracy, but my information
did come from one on Saturday, and they weren't aware that they were being sold
over  here at all ...

Peter

    But the MX6 is the same as the Ford Probe.....
    
    Dave

    re .61
    In the US the MX6 is not at all the same as the Ford Probe, although
    they share a lot of components (e.g. Powertrain and suspension) but not
    body panels.
    
    The Ford Probe is a two door hatchback (Sort of like a frontwheel drive
    Capri replacement), while the MX6 is a 4 door saloon.
    
    Andrew

	As the originator of the MX6 question I better say now it did'nt
	look a Ford Probe.

	It looked very much like the new(ish?) 626 Coupe, with the 2 litre
	16 valve engine. If wasn't for the badging and the wide wheels/tyres,
	that's what I would have thought its was.

	Gordon

    I saw a 2 door 626 coupe driving down the M4 today, looked like a 626,
    with a more sloping back than the usual one, sort of like the 2.7 litre
    Honda 2 door Rover 800 (- I think its called the Legend)

	The price of an immediate delivery MX5 is in decline. Now
	in the 15,xxx league compared to the 14,700 list. Have seen
	quite a few on the road already.

	-John

    What are the pros and cons of that car ? Of course, i find it nice but
    i would like to know more about finitions,quality and engine. And i
    have never been inside (i am 6.6 feet), it looks small, but i am still
    wondering if that could suit me ! We do not have it here in France yet.
    
    thanks in advance,
    Bruno