Conference terri::cars_uk

    The rule of thumb sounds fine, but I was always under the impression
    that there was siginficant difference on some types of vehicle, e.g.
    Ford/GM versus Toyota/Mazda/etc.
    
    I always put this down to the inability to get 15% fleet discount from
    the Japanese vehicle dealers.
    
    So.....
    
    Does that mean we should take-off the fleet discount before dividing by
    2/75????

    Not sure if this is the appropriate place, but ...
    
>UK Fleet Administration
>                                                           Quote Number: 004721
>Model: VAUXHALL CARLTON CDX SALOON AUTO 4D
>
>Engine: 2000cc
>Options:
>TRIP COMPUTER 7 FUNCTION
>TOW BAR TWIN ELECTRICS
>REAR FLOOR MATS
>PEARLESCENT TWO COAT PAINT
>Floor Mats
>MUDFLAPS (X4)
>GSI SPOILER (COLOUR CODED)







>Price: 3788/366            Delivery: 15 JUN 90           Expires: 15/04/90

    
    
    ... not bad, eh ? Get your orders in fast, I suspect it won't be around
    very long !!
    
    Colin
    
    P.S. Shame there's 18 months left on my car.

    

    A Merc for the price of a Sierra.
    
    Take a look at the third Merc on VTX - a Merc for 1200.
    
    Can it possbily be correct ??
    
    Rich
    

            <<< MARVIN::DISK$ROBIN:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARS_UK.NOTE;1 >>>
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Note 996.0                Anyone got a Volvo 340/345???               No replies
FOOT::ANDERSONL "I'm not fat...I'm fluffy!..."        9 lines  28-MAR-1990 09:48
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Can anyone give me a rough idea how much Volvo 340/345's are on the 
    lease scheme, for a qualified user?

    Thanks

    Lynn
    

re the Merc: why not 

its a basic (well apart from black paint) Mercedes 190: list price 15630

a Ford Sierra 2.0i Ghia costs 14075

The lease scheme is known to be "generous" with cars perceived to have an image
as slow, big luxurious limosines...

/. Ian .\

    
    I read somewhere - can't remember where, that the 2.0litre petrol
    Merc engine is being replaced. I think the new engine will be an 
    1800 injection job.
    
    Unlikely as it seems, perhaps Mercedes have a backlog of cars to
    clear?
    

    re-1
    
    1.8i in a 190 you've got to be joking unless they are going to bring
    out a less expensive 190.
    
    Grant

    In France the base 190 is called "Contact". Same engine as 190, but lower
    spec and lower price. 
    
    Ken

    According to our local Merc dealer no 190s will be sold after June.
    The base car will be the new 1.8E. Any outstanding (Digital) 190 orders will
    be honoured as 1.8E.
    Tom.
    

    re -.1
    Rich,
    Our local dealer has offered to honour the orders in this way, I
    dont know if this is a standard offering. The 1.8E spec: Power steering
    is standard and everything else (electric windows, sunroof, radio etc)
    are extra.
    I suggest that you talk to your local dealer to check if a "deal"
    similar to the above is available.
    
    Tom.

            <<< MARVIN::DISK$TOOLS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARS_UK.NOTE;1 >>>
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Note 1206.0                       Cheap & Nasty                          1 reply
PEKING::GERRYT                                        8 lines  30-AUG-1990 13:22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I'm considering joining the lease scheme.
    
    Problem...I want either the cheapest petrol car possible
    (Citroen/Lada?/Fiat/Mini) or a cheap deisel car.
    
    Any opinions and guesses at the net monthly premium?
    
    tim

            <<< MARVIN::DISK$TOOLS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARS_UK.NOTE;1 >>>
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Note 1206.1                       Cheap & Nasty                           1 of 1
SHAPES::FIDDLERM                                      6 lines  30-AUG-1990 13:25
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Tim, I have a fiesta Popular (1 litre) thru the scheme.  It costs me
    just #150 per month, plus petrol.  Whether this is good or not depends
    entirely on your personal financial situation.  I believe my quote was
    for #2283 per year.
    
    Mikef

    A colleague pointed out an interesting comment in this months CONNECT.
    Page 6, out of pocket expenses:
    
    "Company cars - As part of every company car agreement, the driver is
    allowed one day free car hire for each service. If more employees took
    up this option rather than going to a different hire company Digital
    would save a great deal of money."
    
    My manager recently explained to us (and I was already under the
    impression) that this hire was charged to him, and thus we should not
    use it to save the company. I have just asked Fleet (purchasing), and
    they confirm the article, and correct my manager!.
    
    The cost of the one day hire IS BUILT INTO THE STANDARD CAR CHARGE.
    Therefore you are paying it ANYWAY, and NO saving is made (either to
    you or Digital) if you do not take it up, PROVIDING THE CAR IS SUPPLIED
    THROUGH THE LEASE COMPANIES RELIEF CAR SCHEME!
    
    I've asked them to put this explanation into the VTX infobase.
    
    
    Richard

    Understood, Richard. All we have to do is (for PHH cars) call 0793
    887788, tell them that you are a Digital driver and they will arrange
    it all. But what about the charge for the second day and third... when
    tha car is in for prolonged work? I have never yet had my cars dealt
    with in one day except for VERY routine work as the problem is "the
    parts aren't in stock, sir we had to order them and they'll be here
    tomorrow" or some such excuse.
    
    Who pays for that?

    My understanding is that PHH pays for second and subsequent days.
    
    In any case, PHH's deal with the hire companies is pretty good - at
    least as good as Digital could get, IMHO, and it is painless - one
    phone call to obtain it, waiting for you when you drop your car off,
    and another to "off-hire" it when you get your car back.
    
    Steve

    Whoops, this is where the confusion STILL continues!
    
    The article was about relief car whilst yours was in for a routine
    			S E R V I C E
    		Never likely to exceed one day.
    
    What you are referring to is a mechanical  B R E A K D O W N  This I
    believe is also fully covered. That is why you are asked whether it's a
    SERVICE or a BREAKDOWN.
    
    The only relief car that is chargeable is after an  A C C I D E N T.
    
    Then digital is fully liable, and the note in Connect say's It's
    cheaper through AVIS. Note too that your company insurance only covers
    AVIS and HERTZ rentals, unless supplied as a relief car through the
    lease company.
    
    Richard

I got this "service hire car" while I was with PHH.   I am now with Hertz and 
reading the small print (the services your company has paid for...bit) the hire 
car bit was not ticked !!!

Is there a discrepancy between PHH and Hertz ???

I can't give you the exact wording at the moment as my car is in for a 
service... 

:-(

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Note 1255.0                   where should this go?                   No replies
CHEFS::CLEMENTSD "Public Sector and Telecomms"       12 lines  12-OCT-1990 13:30
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Moderator person..... please put this comment in the right note. I
    haven't got time to find it.
    
    Just got the docs on my new car today (6 weeks after the car).
    
    The first page says that when we get the hire car to replace vehicle in
    for maintenance "only the first day's hire is charged to Digital and
    all further days will be free of charge providing we advise them of our
    exact requirements"
    
    So that seems to scotch any ideas about PHH/Hertz carrying the cost of
    maintenance rentals. Digital pays for most if not all of it.

    So what makes you think the mod's have more time... ?
    
    Dir/tit=string_you_care_to_look_for is fairly quick.  Unless you have a
    terminal with only one session.
    
    
    Nigel

    Correct, I am a plain old VT240 driver......

      <<< Note 802.40 by CHEFS::CLEMENTSD "Public Sector and Telecomms" >>>

>    Correct, I am a plain old VT240 driver......



so do...


$ PAN DIR CONF CARS /OUT=CARS.LIST   /BATCH

which submits a nice batch job to do a directory
listing to the file CARS.LIST (and you get a mail
message when the operation is complete)

then do

$ SEARCH CARS.LIST "Headlamp"

.. or if you are sure of the string you are looking for..


$ PAN DIR CONF CARS /CONT=HEAD

 Strange, on my VT240, I can have 4 sessions logged in at a time !!!!

		 Alan
		~~~~~~

    Re .41 
    
    all good stuff, if you have access to the $ prompt...... which I
    wouldn't know how to use if I had it anyway. 
    
    Re .42
    
    Aren't they DECserver sessions, not terminal sessions like on a VT1200
    etc?
    
    To avoid enlarging a rathole, let's cut it out now troops. I had my
    botty smacked for thinking that getting the information out into the
    ether where it could do some good was worth the effort of somebody
    knowing exactly where it should go.
    
    I'm a grown up boy, can take my lumps and will try to do better next
    time.

    re: .32/.33
    
    My car is in for a service today.
    
    Called PHH Monday on 0793 887788 to arrange hire car for the day. 
    
    From the conversation I had with the person on the other end of the
    phone it appears that the hire you get depends on the car you lease.
    Makes sense I suppose. If you lease a mini, you get a group A car, if
    like me you lease a Mazda 626 you get a group C car.
    
    Another thing - my lease is through PHH but the hire car was delivered
    by Hertz. Strange ??
    
    Rich
    

    Not so sure on the last one....... 12 years of lease cars (Granada,
    Capri, Saab X 3, Renault X 2) and the only time that I've had a car 
    higher than a group B was when I kicked up a fuss at driving an Escort 
    around for 7 weeks after some prat had put my Saab off the road for
    some major rebuild work.
    
    Maybe I'll challenge them next time the current Renault goes in for 
    a service or to have fallen off bits replaced/warranty repairs done.

re .44,
>    Another thing - my lease is through PHH but the hire car was delivered
>    by Hertz. Strange ??
 

Do PHH hire cars?  :-)

Jc

    There is a difference between what PHH will hire you (normally the
    equivalent model) and what Digital will hire you through the insurance
    scheme (normally group A only).
    
    If your car is in service for one day - Group C is normal from PHH - I
    once got a Granada Ghia for 6 weeks - because of a slight mess-up while
    the car was being serviced.
    
    If your car is pranged (by you or by someone else) then a Group A
    Fiesta seems to be about normal.

    I had a discussion, as it were, last night with PHH after my Carlton
    had to be recovered to Great Western Motors, along the lines of
    "Digital only authorise up to group C, what do you want?"
    
    "Group Z, but whatever there is available. I need wheels for tomorrow
    morning."
    
    "We'll call you back."
    
    Some time later...
    
    "We can't find a group C, sir. There is a group E available, but you
    can't have that. We can find you a group C car for 10.30 tomorrow, is
    that all right?"
    
    "NO" says I. "IT IS _NOT_ ALL RIGHT..."
    
    I got the group E.
    
    Steve

    Re. 44
    
    And when you call up to tell 'em that you've finished with the car they
    give you a sign-off number.
    
    You alos have to tell 'em exactly the time you'll be finished with
    the car as they stop the insurance at that time. They won't accept
    your call to terminate the hire more than three hours beofre the time
    you want to cancel the hire.
    
    Rich
    

    ... cos we are required to sign to decline the rental company's
    insurance; we drive on Digital's.
    
    Steve

    r u shure?
    
    We decline the CDW (Collision Damage Waver) and some other thing, but
    we take the hire insurance.
    
    mb

    Isn't the other "thingy" a statement that you'll pick up the tab for
    any fines slapped on you/the car when youv'e got it under hire?

    
    Can anyone hazard as to the apparent disparity between the following
    two sets of quoates for what appear in both instances to be the same,
    or lesser spec., car ??
    
    I know that January normally brings prices rises with it in the motor
    industry but....
    
    Rich
    
                                                           
	Model: VAUXHALL CAVALIER 2.0 GSI SALOON

	Engine: 2000cc
	Options:
	NON METALLIC PAINT
	Floor Mats
	Price: 6012/2297           

	Model: VAUXHALL CAVALIER GSi CAT SALOON

	Engine: 2000cc
	Options:
	Metallic Paint
	Floor Mats
	Price: 5402/1688           
    

	Model: FORD ORION 1.6 GHIA I SALOON

	Engine: 1600cc
	Options:
	METALLIC PAINT
	Floor Mats
	Price: 4121/407            

                                                           
	Model: FORD ORION 1.6 GHIA I SALOON

	Engine: 1600cc
	Options:
	UNLEADED PETROL
	NON-METALLIC PAINT
	Floor Mats
	Price: 5091/1376           

    I've occasionally noticed bizarre lease costs in vtx but these ones
    take the biscuit.

    The only thing I would say is the higher priced quotes are very recent,
    and the allowance is apparently reviewed every 3 months. The next time
    there is a review is February. If these prices are indicative of
    current lease costs, then there may well be an increase in the
    allowance.

    Check the new quotes after Feb 1st and see.

    - Roy

    In my guise of moderator of this conference I've mailed Fleet asking
    if there is any reson for the apparent discrepancies giving my reply
    ( .55 ) as an example.
    
    I've asked for permission to put any reply I get in this conference
    
    Watch this space
    
    Rich
    

Rich,

Thanks for your mail outlining the current problems with lease costs.

I am only able to comment on the fact that PHH have totally re-structured
their lease prices across the board in line with the poor re-sale market
that they are currently caught up in.  This subsequently means that the
depreciation values set in recent quotes are considerably higher than those
submitted a month ago, hence the noticeable difference on VTX.  They have
also reviewed their maintenance, servicing and relief car costs.

The re-sale element of the lease is a risk they take - if they are not able to 
meet the residual values originally set they could be in a "loss" situation.  
They obviously could not have predicted this situation 2.5 years ago, so are 
trying to cover themselves now for this downward trend in the second-hand market 
that looks likely to continue.

The standard car allowance is due for renewal now and I hope to receive
soon the decision made by the Personnel Committee.  I'm afraid I cannot
comment on the market supplements as this area does not fall under
our umbrella and is a Comps and Benefits issue.

I can only re-iterate a comment made by one of the noters and that is to
take up a current "reasonable" quote if your car is due for renewal in
the next 5 months.  Do not take one up if your renewal date is beyond this
as you will receive a 5 month requote that will show the "new" rates.
Alternatively, take over a pool car until the end of its lease - there
are a lot coming in at present due to the rightsizing exercise, many of
them only a few months old.

I will keep you informed of any updates.

>>
  submitted a month ago, hence the noticeable difference on VTX.  They have
  also reviewed their maintenance, servicing and relief car costs.
>>
    
    One way I feel that lease costs could be reduced is if the fleet
    companies kept tighter controls on maintainance and servicing costs,
    ensuring that work was done efficiently, and ONLY WHEN NECESSARY!
    From other notes here, it is obvious that a lot of people have to waste
    a lot of time and energy chasing up garages. Dererk's just had our Maestro
    back after it's third visit to a garage to fix an oil leak from the
    filter - "Oh no Sir, it's leaking from the sump gasket and a diff
    seel(?)" - both of which they replaced on it's next visit. No change in
    the oil leak, so back it went, and guess what "The oil filter is
    leaking, Sir" so that was sorted out.  This has involved a lot of
    unnecessary costs, including car hire. 
    
    BUT this requires that fleet be informed by lease car holders of what
    is going on, not just moaning in the office and in notes!
    
    I think many garages see these cars as easy money, the person signing
    for the work is not the one (directly) paying for it. How many times
    would you have questioned the work done more closely if you were
    writing the cheque? 
    

    > I think many garages see these cars as easy money, the person signing
    > for the work is not the one (directly) paying for it. How many times
    > would you have questioned the work done more closely if you were
    > writing the cheque? 
    
    Very true. I know a couple of times I've had run ins with garages how
    are trying to get unnecessary work by me. In each case, they've backed
    down and agreed to not do the work or to not charge me.
    
    Mark

    Clearly the metallic paint is more than the sunroof!
    
    Steve

    interesting that the price seems to have gone up across the board....
    just when car manufacturers are saying they have had their worst month
    for a couple of years, because no-one is buying their cars.
    
    Have the delivery times dropped or not??
    
    Is it that PHH know we are a captive market?? Have PHH and Hertx done a
    deal?? Have PHH been told that the money they borrow to buy our cars 
    for us has gone up in price?? 
    
    I thought the bank rates were dropping, price of oil was getting
    cheaper, cars not selling so delivery times should be shorter.
    
    P.s. the airlines worst month meant the prices dropped by 25% - have
    car prices dropped???

    Re .67
    
    Really?
    

    
    This must account for the number of Calibra quotes with an UNLEADED
    CONVERSION. The car comes with a Catalytic convertor and wouldn't much
    like a diet of leaded fuel!
    
    When I look for a car, I find I often know more about the cars I'm
    looking at than the dealer, obviously that isn't true of many people
    on the lease scheme.
    
    Mark

    
    
    I thought that some time last year we stopped using Hertz and have
    gone back to a diet of PHH only?
    
    Richard.

    Given the latest example of the disparity in lease costs i.e. the
    Jag I've mailed a lady called MArilyn Clifton, U.K. purchasing
    manager, for a possible explanation.
    
    Again watch this space
    
    Rich
    
    

    Re: .73
    
    I think your getting muddled here, we can't hire cars from Hertz any
    more, they are no longer a preferred supplier. It Avis only now for
    hire cars. In the US it's Avis and National.
    
    We still get lease cars from Hertz, my wife just got a Rover from them
    today.
    
    Geoff

    Re .73 & .75
    
    Still not quite right.
    
    We use PHH and Hertz for leases, and we take the better quote.
    
    For hire cars, we try Avis first, cos they give us the better deal.  If
    Avis cannot supply, then you can go to Hertz, cos they give us a deal,
    only not quite as good.
    
    E&OE
    
    Steve

    re:72 
    
    I was under the impression that the 'Base' allowance is reviewed every
    three months. It should, therefore, have been reviewed in February. I
    have seen no evidence of this. Any ideas ?
    
    It begs the question, will it be reviewed in May either.
    
    Now, where's the spec for a 1.0l Mini Metro, ooops, Rover Metro.
    
    Colin

    Colin, I also understand that the lease allowance is reviewed every
    3 months. However, reviewed does not mean that it will necessarily
    be increased.
    
    As the lease costs are going through the roof, I would be most
    surprised if it does not go up in May. The response from fleet
    in #802.60 indicated that the matter is under review by the Personnel
    Committee. 
    
    The thing that grieves me the most is that PHH and Hertz can safely
    whack up their prices, knowing that DEC will just have to pay whatever
    they want. I know this is very simplistic but I'm sure its not far from
    the truth.
    
    - Roy

    
    Has anyone got practical experience of a DIY lease, having taken the
    cash option?
    
    Seem to be plenty of alternative suppliers. I'm curious --- but not
    replacing my 3-year old, 60k, lease car 'til I've seen the impact of
    the Budget.

    re .81...
    
    I forgot to add that I did offer to make the lease payments on behalf
    of the company and then claim the money back each month, with the tax
    and VAT claimed back by Digital, but no dice. It seems that making the
    payments to PHH/Hertz is part of the added value from Fleet......

    I just asked Human Resources about this increase and they knew nothing
    about the increase.
    
    
    Is it a typo error in VTX.
    
                            Kevin R

    If you take the money instead of the car does this mean you will see a 
    increase in your monthly basic ?
    
    
    
                             KR
    
    

        
    Nope. The cash option is only reviewed annually :-(

    Will HMG grab it all back in the budget?
    
    Richard.

    Input from UK Purchasing Manager.
    
    Please not Marilyn is just the messenger so don't take verbal pot shots
    at her !
    
    Rich
    
From:	NAME: MARILYN CLIFTON               
	FUNC: A & L PURCHASING                
	TEL: (7)830 3699                      <CLIFTONM AT A1_PEKING at SUBURB at REO>
         
         Thanks for your memo re leasing quotes.  I apologise for the 
         delay in replying but I wanted to check out my beliefs.
         
         I will explain what happens:-
         
         Driver requests a quote - Fleet send the request to both 
         Leasing Companies.  The lowest of these prices received 
         within seven days is sent to you, the driver, as a quote and 
         put onto VTX.
         
         There are several problems if a driver knows the 
         specification of a particular car he may ask for.
         
         A.  Vauxhall Calibra 2.0i 16v 'Cat' Coupe.
         
         another driver can ask for
         
         B.  Vauxhall Calibra 2.0i 16v 'Cat' Coupe.
             Non Metallic
             Floor Mats
             Electric Roof
             Radio
             Electric Windows
             Central Locking
         
         Both are the same car and to the uninitiated it looks as if 
         example A is dearer than example B.
         
         Also if one of the Leasing Companies has not responded within 
         seven days the quote received is issued and put onto VTX 
         therefore you may not have got the cheapest available quote.
         
         In your example each of the lowest prices no longer stands.  
         Quotes are only on the system one month before they 
         disappear.
         
         Over the last month we have received a tremendous increase 
         from the Leasing Companies.  Both Companies are re-looking at 
         their pricing structure.  The major reason for the increases 
         are as you so rightly say manufacturers increases and the 
         bottom falling out of the used car sales market.
         
         We are at the moment trying to negotiate a lower rate but am 
         unable to hold out much hope for a huge drop.
         
         You may not be aware yet that the minimum deductor has been 
         adjusted to 3600 - 4140 with VAT, so that will help a bit.  
         If you need more assistance around the deductor piece please 
         speak to your Personnel Rep.
         
         PHH and Hertz are not the only Companies raising their rates, 
         it is across the board.
         
         The other option we are trying to implement is not responding 
         to the driver quite so quickly, but waiting for both quotes 
         to arrive before processing the response.
         
         There will undoubtedly be a marked increase in the costs over 
         last month, but please bear with me, we may be able to 
         minimise this in due course.
         
         I suggest that if you are changing your car now you use VTX 
         wisely and as you suggested take over an existing vehicle.  
         Obviously some are real bargains - only six months old at a 
         price 8 to 10 months ago.
         
         I am sorry I can't give you any better news than that at this 
         moment.
         

    It seems some quotes have dropped by 500 all of a sudden. Must be as a
    result of the minimum deductor amount going up to 4104 - see last
    reply.
    
    I put a quote in for a Premira ZX a couple of weeks ago. The original
    quote was 2412 per annum - I see today that its been altered to
    1990'ish pounds per annum.
        
    Rich
    

    
    
    	Tell me I'm not seeing things - these two quotes are for an
    identical car - even though the second does specifically ask for the
    new model ? There again all 320is delivered after June will be the new
    model.
    
    Rich
    
                                                           Quote Number: 008474
Model: BMW 3 SERIES 320I SE SALOON

Engine: 2000cc
Options:
UNLEADED
METALLIC PAINT
BLAUPUNKT BRISTOL RADIO CASSETTE
Floor Mats

Price: 7000/2770           Delivery: 21 JUL 91           Expires: 23/05/91

                                                           Quote Number: 008476
Model: BMW 3 SERIES 320I SE SALOON

Engine: 2000cc
Options:
NEW MODEL
METALLIC PAINT
Floor Mats
BLAUPUNKT BRISTOL RADIO CASSETTE


Price: 7634/3404           Delivery: 21 JUL 91           Expires: 23/05/91

    What about this, a serious bargain if you ask me...
    
    Model: BMW 3 SERIES 318i CONVERTIBLE
    
    Engine: 1800cc
    Options:
    REAR HEAD RESTS
    Floor Mats
    NON METALLIC PAINT
    LEATHER UPHOLSTERY
    DE - CHROMED
    DEBADGED
    Price: 6039/1809           Delivery: 21 JUL 91      Expires: 23/05/91
                                                                        

    Re -.1
    
    I've already seen one person with an order form in his hand for this
    quote!!
    
    Ian.

    I've also seen someone ordering from this quote, about 30 seconds after
    mentioning it.
    
    Looks like theres going to be a surfeit of BM convertables in viables
    car park shortly.
    
        - Roy