Conference terri::cars_uk

    No messages on this subject for over a year now.
    
    What happened, surely you can't all have lost interest !
    
    I 'only' have an 8-valve integrale, with approx 235bhp.
    
    For those that may be interested (anybody out there ?),
    the differences (in the UK) between 8-valve and 16-valve
    versions of this car are as follows :-
    
    	- Extra 8 valves stuffed into the head - surprise, surprise
    
    	- Bulge to allow the bonnet to close over the bigger head
    
    	- Smaller turbocharger (less inertia, reduces lag)
    
    	- More power, different torque figures, higher rev. limit
    
    	- Wider wheels (up to 7", from 6" before)
    
    	- Lower suspension (by about 1")
    
    	- Some strengthened tie-bars in the front suspension
    
    	- 'Central' diff changed to bias power to rear wheels
    
    	- Different (slightly) dashboard layout
    
    	- Different badges
    
    	- Different price tag (8V LHD=17,000  8V RHD=20,000  16V LHD=21000)
    

    
    Further to the 4-wheel-drive DELTA story :-
    
    It started with the DELTA HF 4WD (165bhp),
    
    it improved with the integrale (185bhp),
    
    it got even better with the 16v (200bhp),
    
    the next instalment is not more power, as supposed maximum of
    300bhp permitted in Group A rally cars (Cosworth Fords lie the most).
    
    Next year will see the final version of the 4x4 Delta, it
    will keep the same 16-valve engine but will boast wider
    wheel-arches and further modified suspension.
    
    This is all that Lancia can do within the rules to keep this car
    at the top.  Hope that Toyota don't improve any more...
    
    
    
    Look forward to write-ups on DEDRA integrale when available !
    

    Re 622.* (almost)
    
    Well I must say, no-one out there with an interest in this car !
    
    Almost all of the replies under the heading of 16v Integrale
    appear to be on other cars - why not scrap this topic altogether ?
    
    Personally, I think that integrales are great cars, but then I am
    extremely biased.  If replies are to mention other cars under this
    heading, why not compare like-with-like ?
    
    I would like to know if anyone has any comments on the equivalent
    model from Toyota, the GT-Four (2-litre turbo, 4-wheel-drive).
    I wouldn't even mind too much if someone were to write about the
    Ford (aaagh) all-wheel-drive, 2-litre turbo job, but to lower the
    tone to that of little French turbo-powered shopping trolleys !!!
    
    John
    
    PS
    	I missed a couple more differences between 8/16 valve versions :-
    
    	- Different power steering (I think)
    
    	- Different engine management system
    
    	- Larger tyres (205/50 instead of 195/55) to go with the bigger wheels
    
    	More importantly, anyone own one (in the UK) ?

    
    Mandy and I took a trip to Clover Leaf Garage (just outside
    Basingstoke) on Saturday to test drive a 16 valve Integrale (12k miles
    old).
    
    The general feel of the car was good (it looks and feels well put
    together) and visibility was good despite it being LHD.
    
    Still, the Integrale isn't about build quality, it's about driving.
    
    The salesman warmed it up and off we went with him driving. By the 
    time we'd gone about a mile the speedometer was showing 120 mph and
    rising! It really didn't feel like that kind of speed, but the ease
    with which we rushed up to and past other cars suggested that the 
    speed was accurate. 
    
    A quick show off of the cars incredible damp road grip (all four tyres
    squealing on a very greasy tight curve) and it was my turn. First
    mistake was to leave the handbrake on (concentrating too much on
    getting the gears right!) and off we went. Wow! Ok, it was full
    throttle but the acceleration was incredible, with nothing seemingly
    preventing the full 200 bhp reaching the road (4WD on a road car
    doesn't seem such a fad anymore!). Handling too was incredible, it
    didn't seem to matter how rough you were with the car, it just kept
    its composure and, more importantly, its grip. Sometimes I can push the
    Renault beyond it's limit, but the Integrale really is in a different
    league to anything else I've ever driven. It's limits are so far
    above any other car I've experienced.
    
    So, am I buying it? No. The running costs sound horrific, as does the
    insurance. I suspect LHD would be a problem on small roads despite the
    car's fantastic acceleration, but most significantly, I really don't
    think I've got a strong enough will to ensure that I could keep my 
    licence with a car which reaches 110 mph with such ridiculous ease.
                                    
    When petrol is 20p a gallon and speed limits are abolished, then I'll
    be off to Germany to buy a new one, but until then, I'll just have to
    reflect on a very exciting test drive.
    
    Mark

just out of interest how much was the car?

and what did you learn about servicing costs?


cheers...


...art

    
    The car was 17000 pounds all but a fiver and typical service is in the
    region of 400 pounds (before you get into unusual parts!).
    
    Insurance quote I've just received is 580 pounds, about twice what I 
    pay on the Renault, but not as bad as I'd imagined.
    
    Mark

    
    Why buy a new one ??
    
    They do depreciate quite rapidly in value and I would
    much rather buy one about a year old that has had all
    the silly little faults ironed out. Lancia cars have
    more that most believe me.
    
    I'm repeating advice I was given by a Lancia expert so
    you don't have to go to a dealer.
    
    I'll post more details tomorrow of a garage where you can
    get a good deal on a second hand Integrale plus all the
    post sale goodies that come with it like warranty etc. Also
    a service would not cost you 400 quid.
    
    I have a review somewhere of a test between the Integrale 8v
    and 16v and I seem to remember there not being a lot of difference
    between the two cars.
    
    
    Jeff.
    

    
    Re .44
    
    I was told that ABS was a 900 pound extra on the 16 valve.
    
    Not having driven an 8 valve it's impossible to compare the two, but
    there is definite turbo-lag from standstill, but this is not really
    noticeable once you are on the move.
    
    All Integrales are LHD, but there are conversions available to convert
    the cars (8 and 16 valve) to RHD. Cost of converting the 16 valve I
    drove was quoted as 3000 pounds + VAT making the car a very expensive
    proposition.
                     
    The car didn't seem 'nervous', but again this is only really possible
    to judge against an 8 valve.
    
    A nice car to drive, but I'm not sure I'd want to live with one.
    
    Mark

re .46;

CAR is giving away a cardboard cut out of a BX....

'scuse me, I'm dashing off to the newsagents!

Peter.

P.S. notice how BX's keep popping up in other notes....

    My edition of CAR has a cut-out Disco. They are doing their top ten,
    and a random example is in each copy. You can, if you really want, get
    the full set for #6.95, or cut the paper ones out of the magazine,
    paste onto card, and then make the model.
    
    I am not going to bother; the Disco will be delegated to my son.
    
    Steve

 >>   My edition of CAR has a cut-out Disco

he he!

I got an MX-5 !!!

btw. if anyone doesn't want their cut out model it will be graciously received
at REO F8/E3

cheers...

...art

    
    What's a Disco? (I just KNOW I'm going to regret asking! :^))
    
    Mark

    
    Re .51
    
    Is it a LR Discovery?
    
    Mark

>>yipee yi ah, don't you think I look like Peter Beardsley?

is he that bald bloke? - then yes

>>What's a Disco?
a place where kids dance or a cuty-wuty term for a Discovery (i assume)



...art		:-)

    
    Re .53
    
    Which bald bloke?
    
    Mark

    Comments in latest CAR magazine about the forthcoming integrale models.
    
    The Delta replacement will be based on Tipo floorpan/whatever.
    This new model will be wider than current Delta models.
    
    Not being introduced yet, since the Group A integrales are still
    doing rather well in rallying, and the 'evolutione due' has not
    yet been used.
    
    All the new integrale models will use 'multi-valve' heads, with
    the existing 2-litre, 16-valve turbocharged engine being continued.
    
    Plus, there will be a 2.5 litre, 5 cylinder engine as well !
    
    Does anyone know any details of this engine.  I didn't know of
    any five's in the Fiat Group, are there any ?  I guess this is
    based on the existing Fiat/Lancia twin-cam engine.
    
    J.R.

    Besides the 'final' version of the present Delta integrale (see note
    1120.87, or CAR magazine), some details are available for the forthcoming
    replacement, which will be based on a Tipo floorpan.
    
    The body will be available in 3- and 5-door styles.  Picture of the
    3-door body shown in CAR magazine supplement.  It does at least look a
    bit different to the other hatches available, although maybe something
    like a Polo (!).
    
    Integrale will be available with the 16v engine, with an extra model
    being the Superintegrale.  This will be a 20v 2.3 litre engine and is
    supposed to develop about 250bhp (torque not quoted).  I guess I may
    revert to being a Lancia driver when that becomes available (1994)...
    
    J.R.

    
    There are rumours that the Calibra Turbo 4x4 is going to form the basis
    for GM's new rally car (the car being a little lighter than the
    Cavalier, although other rumours say the Cavalier will be the rally
    car). With 280 bhp available to the Group A (ish) BTCC Cavaliers from
    a normally aspirated 16v engine, getting Integrale/Celica competitive
    power should be no problem, but the Calibra (or Cavalier) is a much
    bigger car than the Integrale (although possibly it need be no heavier
    in rally trim given the more modern shell design).
    
    No doubt Calibra/Cavalier rally drivers will appreciate the greater
    straight line stability of the longer wheelbase, but in some places
    (Like Corsica) the bigger car could be at a disadvantage.
    
    I hope the Calibra does get to see some competition. Apparently,
    Vauxhall wanted to race a Calibra in the BTCC (instead of the GSi
    Cavalier), but the Calibra didn't meet one of the internal measurement
    restrictions (Rear headroom I think).
    
    Mark (Busy cluttering the Lancia note with Vauxhall stuff :^))

    re-1

    If Vaxhall want a good rally car why don't they put the 2.0Litre 16V
    Turbo engine & 4x4 transmission in the Astra?

    The 2.0Litre 16V already fits in the Astra GSi so a Turbo should fit. 
    It would be one hell of a rally car.

    Grant

>>    Having seen the Mercedes advert on TV, makes you wonder if they
>>    are getting more rallying aspirations ???     ;-)
    
    
    Mercedes have said that they will enter the F1 arena when they are
    confident they will be able to win the championship !
    
    Shaun.

    
    Which Merc advert is this?
    
    Mark

    
    A Merc? What, a saloon?
    
    Must keep my eyes peeled for this one. The only Merc featuring ad I've
    seen is the one for Goodyear tyres which features the C11, but I've
    only seen that on Screensport.
    
    Mark

        
    The advert shows the new Mercedes S-class. 

    Richard.

    I don't think this note has the word Porsche in it enought times.
    (Or Italian rust bucket :-)
    
    	Rik

    
    Re .67
    
    Try telling Footwork that! :^)
    
    Mark

    Rut,

    	I'm glad you mentioned Honda in this note Rut as it gives me the chance
    to go on about how good the NSX is :-)

    As for getting a Porsche :-

    	911	Looks - beautiful,
    		Noise - beautiful,
    		Erganomics - bl**dy awful (Even Lancia is better !)
    		Mr Leach drives one (and look at his ties :-)
    	914	VW
    	914/6	Yes I would like one of these, but prices are a bit steep
    	924	Hairdressers car
    	944	Too heavy, the 2.5L ones only produce 170bhp a CRX gives
    		160!!	
    	928	Old Mans Porsche (Anyone is the states remember the
    		``Sack the Chauffer'' adds - brill)
    	959	Nice but for the money I'd get a 288 GTO
    	968	Overpriced (and under powered)
    
    		Rik

    
    Re a large number back.
    
    Grant asked why Vauxhall don't put the 4WD Turbo drivtrain in an Astra.
    
    Does anyone know if the new Astra is planned to be available in 4WD
    form?
    
    Mark

>>    Does anyone know if the new Astra is planned to be available in 4WD
>>    form?

4wd turbo according to last months 'Car'


...art

>>    As for getting a Porsche :-
>>
>>    	911	Looks - beautiful,
>>    		Noise - beautiful,
>>    		Erganomics - bl**dy awful (Even Lancia is better !)
>>    		Mr Leach drives one (and look at his ties :-)
    
    
    I only bought one because you have'nt got one ;^)
    
    Mr. Leach (And whats wrong with my ties ?)

	Re .75

	Europe? Why should I enjoy Europe?

	JJ.

    December issue of CARS and Car Conversions (CCC) has a two-page
    write-up on the latest incarnation of the integrale.
    
    There are a *lot* of minor changes to the overall car, which result
    in a much improved final product.  And I though the 8V was great !
    
    Weight is increased (on road version) by 50kg, but slightly improved
    power evens up the 0-60 type of times.  Lancia claim that a back-to-back
    comparison of the old and new versions in a simulated tarmac rally stage
    resulted in the new car being 1.5 seconds per km faster.  That's a lot !!!
    
    When suggested that with a roll-cage fitted, this would be a Group N
    winner straight from the showroom, the answer was 'we find that it is'.
    
    J.R.
    
    PS even the piddly spoiler at the rear of the roof is adjustable to
       give three quoted levels of downforce at the rear !

    
    The biggest improvement is the reduction in turbo-lag, and improvement 
    in low-rev go and not the addition of a rear-spoiler (which I think
    looks a bit naff). I think if you got one and chipped it, you might
    loose the effects of all Lancias endeavours.

>>    The biggest improvement is the reduction in turbo-lag, and improvement 
>>    in low-rev go and not the addition of a rear-spoiler (which I think
    
    I also dislike the rear spoiler, but what I did like is that is was
    fitted because it was required (in competition) and not as a cosmetic
    addition.  This was also the case with the Cosworth Sierra tea-tray,
    but that is just absurd, or mega-naff !
    
>>    looks a bit naff). I think if you got one and chipped it, you might
>>    loose the effects of all Lancias endeavours.
    
    Reducing turbo lag is certainly a worthwhile improvement, for both
    road and competition versions.  Apparently this was achieved by the
    newer chip programming.  I would hope that any increased-boost chips
    for this engine would try to maintain the better programming lower
    down, but still allow higher boost levels to increase top-end power.
    
    I had an 8-valve, which I chipped up at BBR and there was absolutely
    no difference in behaviour lower down the range (revs and boost).
    But when the boost went up, so did the performance...
    
    The problem of turbo-lag was supposedly much worse on the 16v, but
    I only drove one briefly, before becoming acquainted with my own 8v,
    so I couldn't really comment on the different characteristics.
    
    If you are interested in this car, then the magazine article makes
    good reading.  If you're into Citroen BoXes, dopey rear stickers or
    Ford products, then don't bother looking for the magazine !!!   ;-)
    
    J.R.

>>    not the addition of a rear-spoiler (which I think looks a bit naff).
    
    For homologation reasons, if it isn't on the showroom model, you can't
    rally with it ... Hence the spoiler.   Lancia have even quoted
    downforce improvements for each of its adjustable settings.  As John
    said, all it needed was a roll cage and it group 'N' complient !
    
>>    I think if you got one and chipped it, you might loose the effects of all
>>    Lancias endeavours.
    
    You would'nt say that if you had driven Johns' 8 valve Integrale !
    
    
    Shaun.

    I haven't read the CARS & Car Convertions report, but I did read the 
    CAR report - the car sounds brilliant, and like the article pointed
    out, it's hard to imagine the already superb Integrale being improved.
    But Lancia have done it, steering feel, brakes, handling, low-rev go
    and down force (:^)) have ALL been improved. I didn't realise group 'N'
    required the spoiler - so I'll forgive Lancia for adding it.
    I'd still be concerned about chipping it though, but from the reports
    I've heard about BBR, they can be trusted not to screw it up.
    
    Al.

>>    and down force (:^)) have ALL been improved. I didn't realise group 'N'
    
    Doesn't Group A also disallow additional aerodynamic devices or bodywork ?
    
    
    If you think CAR liked the latest model, CCC had even more praise !
    
    J.R.

    There's yet another CAR article on the latest integrale.
    
    In it, they compare the three cars which they consider to be
    the fastest vehicles on the road - usable cars, that is.
    
    The other two cars tested are the Lotus Elan and the Carrera 4...
    
    
    As can be seen by discussions in another topic, I am considering
    the purchase of this version of the integrale.  This article only
    adds to my interest in doing so.
    
    Having had one integrale, I really would like to have another one,
    especially if it is even faster/better than the original.
    
    J.R.

>>    Where's the  S2? Admittedly, it's geared too high to be really quick on
>>    acceleration (154MPH).
    
    The vehicles chosen were according to CAR's thoughts.
    
    Although the Porsche had more power and was faster in road tests,
    it didn't win in the criteria applied in this comparison...
    
    One could say that they are biased, they seem to love Porsche 911's
    and are pretty big fans of the Lancia.  They don't seem to have said
    a great deal about the latest Audi models in this magazine, whereas
    they used to rave about the earlier Quattro.
    
    J.R.

               <<< Note 622.85 by PERKY::RUTTER "Rut The Nut" >>>
    
>>    One could say that they are biased, they seem to love Porsche 911's
>>    and are pretty big fans of the Lancia.  They don't seem to have said

Too right!!

Biased_Elan_driver :-)

    German price is 61K DM's - they no longer import it 'officially' here
    so they get it on special order, which includes 1500 DM for a
    suitcase! (which you've GOT to have). They also said discount is out
    of the question. 
    Add another 3K DMs for leather. 
    Seems steep considering the old 16v was only 50K 'all in' one year ago.
    Still cheap compared to the price of an Elan (or Porsche) though.
    A.

>>    Still cheap compared to the price of an Elan (or Porsche) though.

How does it compare with the price of a 911 in Germany?



cheers,

...Art

    
    which Porsche ?  c2 or c4 cab/targa or Turbo.
    
    either way *VERY* favourably, cheapest 911 would be about double.
    

>>    either way *VERY* favourably, cheapest 911 would be about double.
    
    I'd rather have two integrales than one 911...
    
    J.R.

    It had 15000 Km on the clock and was on a G-reg plate.
    Interior immaculate, underneath perfect, underbonnet very clean,
    one *very* small ding in a rear door plus a scratch on the corner
    of the front bumper (parking-type damage).  Priced at 11,999 pounds.
    
    This all seemed ideal, so I chatted with the (Arfur Daley sort) dealer
    to see what he could tell me about it.  Full service history for the
    car, which had been imported from Monaco in Nov '90.  He claimed that
    he was selling it 'for a friend' who had 11 cars, hence the very low
    mileage.  He said that he had actually brought it into the country
    for this friend, who wanted a 'small car' to drive from Dover to London
    when necessary.  When he said that 'they were all imported', I just had
    to disagree, pointing out that the Lancia dealer a few miles away had
    quite a few, all in Red (this one was in White).  I then let him know
    that I had previously imported a White 8-valve model myself and did
    know at least a thing or two about this car (probably more then he did).
    
    When I asked if it had been modified or 'chipped' in any way, he had a
    real look of shock on his face - as if to say 'who would want to ?'...
    
    The alloy wheels had corroded around the edge of their outer rim, to
    which he claimed that Lancia would probably replace them under warranty
    (saying that they had already replaced one of them).  I suspect that
    the one in better condition had probably been bought due to damage, and
    said that to him.
    
    Anyhow, when I asked about the possibility of a drive, he gave a
    distinct 'no' as an answer.  By then, I really disliked his manner
    and left him with a few short comments, pointing out that he had
    quite possibly lost a sale on this car from his attitude.  I was a
    serious prospective purchaser, but he chose not to treat me as one.
    As a result, I was tempted to make him an offer and then tell him
    to 'stuff it' whatever reply he gave.  In the end, simply left it.
    
    Whatever, the car is on low mileage, apparently genuine, with almost
    everything in as-new condition (apart from the wheels).  With this in
    mind, the asking price is definitely a few thousand short of what it
    should be, so it is still niggling in my mind as to whether I should
    go back and hope to find someone better to speak to.
    
    God, I hate *most* car salesmen...
    
    J.R.

    
    Ask yourself WHY a car salesman would sell a car at below the going 
    price?
    
    Mark

Because car salesmen are nice genuine people who get their kicks from helping
out the poor and needy car-less people of the world?

    
    Unless you can test drive it then don't bother. Have you
    seen the service documents ??
    
    
    JN.
    

    Re .97
    
    Mark,  he claimed to be selling 'for his friend'.
    It seemed just far too good to be true - cynic that I often am.
    
    re .99
    
    He said that he had the service documents in the office.
    I didn't ask to see them though.  The owners handbook (printed
    in French) was sitting in the car for all to see.
    
    Neither would I actually buy a vehicle if not given the chance to
    drive it, although his view is that he won't allow anyone to drive it
    unless they are very likely to buy the car.  But he can't always tell.
    
    
    Basically, I had the impression that *if* the stories he told were
    true, then neither he nor 'his friend' knew the value of the car.
    (being a 'collectors' or an 'enthusiasts' car, I feel that the
    figures often quoted in Glasses guide etc are often incorrect).
    
    Another consideration, if he is selling it for someone else, how
    much is he taking as commission ?  In which case, his 'friend' is
    really being ripped off with an under priced sale.  Just because
    he is supposed to be 'rich', doesn't mean he wants to give money away.
    
    
    I just hate the idea of turning this down if it is a real bargain.
    
    Then again, I have little faith in stories from car dealers and
    would rather avoid a risk of buying a ringer or some other bad'un.
    
    J.R.

    
    Sounds to me as if you are really itching to buy this car.
    
    Well, go back and make it perfectly clear that you, the punter,
    are definately wanting to buy an Integrale and that you, the punter,
    like any other potential customer regardless of the car wish to test
    drive the vehicule before making a decision either way. After all
    a test drive is normal practice.
    
    Apart from the language there isn't that much difference between
    service documents but you must see them (after the test drive ?)
    and check them against the car itself et cetera. You don't really
    want to spend money on a 'ringed', 'welded' or stolen car.
    
    I share your cynicism.
    
    BTW. If you do buy it can I have your GTV , please.
    
    JN.

    I agree with .101.
    
    J.R. phone 'em up, say you were speaking earlier about the car and are
    very interested and want to arrange a test drive.
    
    How can he refuse ?
    
    Roy (let us know how you get on)

>>    Sounds to me as if you are really itching to buy this car.
    
    I didn't *really* want to spend this much on a car right now.
    Would be better for me in a few months time, but this does
    seem like a bargain.  And it is a car I would very much like.
    
    I did look underneath the car and it looked fine, no paint overspray,
    no 'strange' panels or welds.  Origins of the car sounded plausible,
    but it seems all a bit too 'nice' to ring true.
    
    I really should try to forget about this particular car and look around
    when I am in a happier position for making another purchase.  At least
    by waiting, the car may be sold and end my indecision.
    
    When I first got there, another person was asking about the car, and
    was also quite interested.  He said he was then going down to Portsmouth
    to look at another Integrale (probably the one at Monzasport, which is
    F reg and priced at 14,000 pounds).  I'll put things off for a week
    and if it's still there I'll consider my finances and go in and give
    the dealer a bit of [verbal] stick...
    
    J.R.
    
    
>>    BTW. If you do buy it can I have your GTV , please.
    
    The GTV won't be 'given' away, but may be sold.  I'm also not sure about
    getting rid of it.  Whatever, I need to decide soon since the MOT is due
    next month and I have to spend some money on it to pass
    (exhaust for sure, valve job maybe, service definitely due).
    If I am to sell it, I would be better of getting the MOT first anyway,
    but that's another issue.