Conference terri::cars_uk

    Try the physiotherapy department at your local hospital - they should
    be able to provide a foam cushion - cylindrical in shape and about 4-5"
    in diameter - costs about #3.
    
    Works for me.
    
    Sue
    

	I don't think that will work, Sue.  I will only make things worse!

	Tims problem is that the seat is too short, as I read his Note.  The 
cushion to which you refer sounds like the same type as my wife has - placed at
the "junction" of the two parts of the seat.  This will reduce the for and aft
length of the seat, where-as Tim needs it to be lengthened!

	I hope that I don't have the same problem with my new Xantia, 'cos that
has a Squab which is about 3" shorter than that on the (VERY comfortable!) BX TZD
seat - I drove 850 miles in one day last month as was not at all discomforted
(tired, yes) at the end of the day.

				Malcolm.

    The problem I believe is to do with the 'drop' in the seat cushion from
    front to back. With no possibility of dropping the front part of the
    cushion without vandalising the seat -( there is no adjustable 'thigh' 
    support as on the BX ), and changing the geometry of the steering wheel
    (non-adjustable), I'm at a bit of a loss.
    I could put in a foot rest perhaps (Rover parts available), or change
    the seat, but the lease company, Hertz, would have to approve.
    
    I don't need any greater height at the front of the cushion....I need
    less!
    
    Tim

	Hi !,

	I had exactly the same problem when I had a  Temporary lease car 
	until my ordered one arrived. It was an XR3I which did  not have 
	an adjustable seat base. I had bad lower back pain on the  right 
	hand side ..... My Doc. pin-pointed  the cause pretty quickly!!.
 
        The Problem is that your body angle while seated should  be like 

	this(approx.) |    ie 90 deg or greater.The poor seat adjustment  
                      |    due to  the base of  the seat being raised at
        	  ____|    the  front and  sloping down towards the back 
			   forced the angle to be considerably less that 
		           that .... As a  temporary  workaround it  was 
	suggested that either  a  small cushion  to try and even out the 
	seat level was used AND/OR the Seat back was tilted backwards to 
	try and increase the angle to as near as possible to the 90 deg. 
		
	The  reason  why I experienced  pain very  badly on one side and 
	only slightly  on the other  was apparently  due to the steering 
	wheel being off-set slightly to one side in nearly all cars ....	

	Seat adjustment and lumbar support is one of the first  things I 
	check in a car now , however the Ford was the only car I've ever
	had a problem with !....
	
	Sandie.../
                      

Ah ...... a fellow sufferer ! you have my full sympathies.

BTW in my experience most cars have the steering wheel in front of the driver -
but a significant minority don't - and its not just small cars either. Two really 
horrid examples are the Cavalier and Astra. I for one will not be driving the 
"preferred" car range for this reason until the maker gets this simple piece
of engineering sorted out. Until then I will just have to pay the extra 
for some other car - currently that's a VW Golf.

    Nias have loaned me on trial, a back support which seems to be doing
    the trick....because it pushes me forward on the seat, and also
    provides lumbar support.
    
    I wonder if anyone has done detailed studies on car seats, and made
    the findings public....ie tests on ordinary cars, not just the Mercs
    and large Volvo's?
    
    Tim

    I have a frontier estate that gives me backache, I've tried all sorts
    with the seats, but nothing has made it better, Vauxhall say's nobody
    else has complained. Am I an isolated case, as Vauxhall would like me to
    believe. 
    
    
    Regards

  >>  I have a frontier estate that gives me backache, I've tried all sorts
  >>  with the seats, but nothing has made it better, Vauxhall say's nobody
  >>  else has complained. Am I an isolated case, as Vauxhall would like me to
  >>  believe. 
    
    
    Funny how cars get you that way, an ex-girlfriend of mine always got a
    headache in my Cortina - thinking about it she always said she had a
    headache in my next car as well................
    
    Paul :-)
    

    I think .-1 is mean't to be a reply to 2344.
    
    Royston

Vauxhall seats are known to be very comfortable.
My Dad has had two slipped discs, so it can be said
his back is a little weak!!, and he drivers a G Reg
Cavalier with no problems.


He doesn't like BMW or FORD seats though, for the back
ache reason.


It probably depends on the individual.


Probably best to commission your own special seats to
be built by hand!!! Well if you can afford the petrol
on a Frontier you should be able to afford hand made
seats!!!


StEvE

re.0:

There are experts that can help, suprised Vauxhall didn't suggest it. You need
to look into all sorts of things such as, do you slouch, is the seat too high,
too far/near the pedals, wrong recline setting, incorrect use of pedals,
tendancy to lean on the door, etc... If anything (steering, pedals, etc) is
slightly out of reach, you soon get back ache.

Dave. 

    Interesting - I've been trying for 6 months to get a comfortable
    position in my Cavalier, but I cant seem to manage it, I alwaays get
    neck/arm ache.  I've decided I must be a wierd throwback with my legs
    too long and my arms too small.  Though the offset of the steering
    wheel is quite marked in my car, and that doesn't help.
    
    Mikef

    ref.7
    
    And with the air-bag installed, there isn't adjustable sterering wheel
    option to my knowledge...so it can exacerbate the problem.
    
    My Montego Clubman's a real killer on the back...got one of the wire
    mesh lumbar supports, and that has helped.
    
    However, it is the whole geometry of the seat/wheel/door arm rest etc,
    and your own physical structure that needs to be coordinated correctly.
    the more adjustments possible on a 'standard' road vehicle, the chance
    of getting in right is more likely!
    
    Shame you can't test drive a car for a month to check this sort of
    thing out!!
    
    Best of luck
    
    Tim

    
>>>    Shame you can't test drive a car for a month to check this sort of
>>>    thing out!!
    

	When I ordered my Renault 18 many years ago, I didn't bother with a road
test, 'cos the comfort of their seats was legendary!

	I found out the error of my assumptions within 45 minutes!!!!!  That
seat required a THREE INCH THICK cushion to make it tolerable!!!!  A one day
trip from Bracknell to Munich and the same on the return a week later proved
that it was then OK.

	I shall not make that mistake again.

				Malcolm.

I have the same problem, 6'6"" and I find that in ANY Vauxhall I get severe back
ache on any journey over 30 mins. I have no idea why, I have had cars with
Recaro lookalike seats (a la GM) with no ill effect. No other car appears to
give me the problem either. It's not the driving position either as sitting in
any of the passenger seats results in the same problem. I wouldn't mind a
Carlton estate either.....but I shan't look at one because of this problem.

    Well, I hate to have to admit it but it looks like I made a big mistake
    by getting a Punto for my new lease car.
    
    The car is fine in every respect except that it is putting me through
    hell with back-pain, even on short journeys.
    
    I've had it nearly two weeks and put a 1000 miles on it already
    and have tried all sorts of different seating positions and am now
    trying a lumbar support cushion.
    
    I've even asked leaseplan (who were very helpful) about cancelling the
    lease. This is apparently the sin of all sins and needs a diety in
    HR to approve this after the request goes through the cost centre
    manager.
    
    I'm going to see how it goes for the time being.
    
    I had this exact same problem in a Corsa Sport I had on test but
    don't remember having a problem with the Punto I had for a few days
    as a hire car.
    
    The problem is in the lower back. I think its a combination of the
    seat not being right for me (i'm 6'4") and the car which transmits
    all the road surfaces _much_ more than my old Cavalier (presumably
    because of the shorter wheel base and small wheels).
    
    I'd be very interested to hear from others that have suffered backache
    in small cars especially the Punto.
    
    Royston
    

    	Sounds like you'll be needing a Doctor's note to HR then Royston!
    
    	I had a similar problem with my Renault 18 many years ago - knew 30
    minutes after I took delivery that I had terrible back ache.  I
    finished up with the biggest cushion I could find, behind my back. 
    After that I could drive 600 miles in a day without too much trouble.
    
    				Malcolm.

    >Recaro
    
    Thats an interesting thought. Can you give details of a supplier ?
    
    Thanks
    
    Royston

I had that problem with an Astra. After a year, I swapped it with a car 
that was being returned (guy resigned). HR and Hertz (as it was) had no 
issues with sending my car back rather than the other one.

Alan

    
    re .20
    
    I'll look the address/phone up and post it during Monday.
    
    Richard.

    Thanks.
    
    A quick update on the Punto. 
    
    Its getting worse. Now that I've been driving the car for nearly two
    weeks I am now in constant discomfort.
    
    I phoned Fiat after-sales to see if anyone had reported a problem with
    Punto seating arrangements and was told that there wasn't. I asked for any
    advice on how to set the seat (although I've tried everything) and was
    told to seek my doctor's advice !
    
    I'll seriously be looking into taking Mr Betjeman's advice and take to
    the train. 
    
    Royston

    >>I asked for any advice on how to set the seat
    
    Most car seat positions are not good for the back. Ideally, you want
    to keep your knees below your hips (I'm talking about for driving here,
    btw) or at least level with them, and your lower spine should be pushed
    forward, not slump into the seat. The latter is easy to achieve with a
    rolled-up towel, the leg angle is not so easy, even with a wedge on
    the seat to raise your bum. Don't persist with a seating position that
    hurts: you WILL knacker your back in a short space of time.
                           
    Phil Gill.

    Thanks Phil for your advice which makes a lot of sense.
    
    Re: >you WILL knacker your back in a short space of time.
    
    I'm rapidly coming to that conclusion.
    
    Royston

    Roy,
    
    I got a sore back in my Calibra at first, traced it down to the height
    adjuster tilting the seat backwards so much, which made it
    uncomfortable. Raising the seat height, and thus levelling the bottom
    of the seat fixed it for me!
    
    Greg

    Roy,
    
    Having owned a Punto ELX and GT for six months or so - I never had any
    problems with my back with either ( although both seats come with
    lumber support ). I did suffer incredibly from a Renault 19 I had as a
    hire car which near killed me on a trip from Warrington to Reading.
    
    I would suggest boosting back support in your Punto - I cant remember
    if the model you have has lumber support - but if not - try a small
    cushion behind your back or you could even try one of those beaded back
    rests which might help. As a last resort I would raise the level of
    your seat and try and sit with your seat back pushed forward as much as
    you can bare for comfort.
    
    just my twopenneth
    
    Cheers
    
    Rick
    

    Thanks guys for your comments.
    
    I've tried the following -
    . Beaded seat cover - No difference
    . Cushion behind my back - No difference
    . Lumbar support in various positions behind my back. -No Difference.
    . All possible seat positions. Reclining it/straightening it.
    . The only thing I can't do is raise the seat at all as I am very tall
      and need as much head room as poss.
    
    The comment about problems with backache in a Calibra is worrying as
    one of the things I'm looking into is taking over CBH's one when he
    leaves next month.
    
    If the problem persists, I'll have to see the doc. However, I can see
    he response that is the problem has only occured since getting the
    new car, his advice would be to change it. 
    
    I'm gutted at the moment and given up driving the car.
    
    Royston                                    

    >> However, I can see he response that is the problem has only occured 
    >> since getting the new car, his advice would be to change it.
    
    Possibly, but the new car may have highlighted a developing back
    problem. Is there ANY car seat that still feels comfy?
    
    Phil Gill.         

    Re back problem.
    
    You are right. This is agrevating a problem that I have or
    'highlighting' it as you say. However, the Cavalier never caused me
    this problem. Nor have many other cars I've driven recently. 
    
    I won't go on about this anymore until I've resolved it one way or
    another.
    
    Royston
           

One problem you will encounter with the Calibra is the limited headroom, which 
other noters may confirm.  Even with my modest height of 5'9" I find that I 
keep hitting my head on the roof, even though I prefer having the driver's 
seat in a very reclined position (I've been accused by some of lying down when 
I'm driving!  :)  (And this is *much* worse in the back seats, where even I 
have to sit at a peculiar angle just to fit in the thing - and my mum, who's 
only 5'2", only just fits!)

Chris.

    Roy,
    
    Try making the seat higher, (to straighten the bit your bum rests on)
    then reclinging the back rest, see if that helps!
    
    Greg
    
    But I found the backache didn't go away overnight!

	As one who writes this note sitting stiffly in my chair, I sympathise
greatly !  I have found the following :  If I do not push my bum to the back of
the seat and keep it there, I will aggravate my back;  if my car seat does not
have pronounced sides (racing style) I will aggravate/create back problems;  if
the front of the seat is too high relative to the rear, I will have problems
(too much support under thighs stops one from bracing one's body in situ);  if
the seat baseis too high off the floor, my back will be aggreived - same as
before, I can't brace myself.  Like Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, it's a combination
of things, never just one.  In my G15 the seat was literally level with the
floor - the squab was in a depression, between the chassis rails, never had any
problems, unlike my old man's Renault 16, which used to give me grief every time
I drove it.  I always found Vauxhall/Opel to use a lower seating position than,
say, Ford for example - but that's 10-15 years ago, dunno what the Euro's are
doing now.

Good luck.

Charles

    At 6'6" I found the calibra was pretty good.... have they changed the seat
    design??
    
    The Omega is better - but even then after 3 hours at the wheel it still
    aches a bit.

    Last Saturday's Telegraph motoring supplement had an article on this
    very subject, and believe it or not, the Punto was singled out for
    praise for, and used as an example of, good design for seating and the
    alleviation of back problems! It included a number of suggestions for
    the relief of back pain, and carried detailed descriptions of optimal
    seating positions, with pictures. Suggestions included:
    
    Using the "bladder" from a wine box, inflated of course, as a lumbar
    support. A bloke 6'4" tall used a block of wood 6.5" by 9.5" and 1.5"
    thick, covered in cardboard and material about 4.5" below the
    shoulderline on his seat. They also suggested a few proprietary
    products one might like to try.
    
    Let me have your mailstop, Royston, and I'll send it today, infernal
    mail (then you can type the salient points in!).
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

My previous Calibra had cloth seats and loads of driver headroom.

My current Calibra has leather seats, and even with the 
seat at its lowest, my head is perilously close to the roof. (I'm 6'0")

I'd stick with the Harley if I were you (assuming you've still got it!)

Huw.

    Thanks guys for your continuing concern.
    
    I was signed off by my doctor last week to rest up a bit and am
    pleased to say my back is much better. Driving the Punto (25 miles)
    this morning has caused no problem.
    
    I'd be intestered in the article Laurie. I'm at UVO.
    
    I'll see how it goes for a few days and make a decision about getting
    shot of the car by the end of the month.
    
    I have driven an SE4 recently and though I agree headroom is a bit
    tight it shouldn't be a problem.
    
    Royston

    The article (whole supplement actually) is on its way.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    As a 6' 1" Omega driver and long time (until recently ) backpain
    sufferer, I would strongly reccomend getting your GP to refer you to a
    physiotherapist at your local hospital.... your Punto seat may be
    aggravating an existing problem, and simply resting up, as your GP
    reccomends WILL NOT fix the problem. The symptoms may be releived, but
    you can bet your last brass farthing it'll come back ('scuse the pun)
    with a vengance. 
    
    GP's are traditionally poor at isolating pack pain, unless they have an
    interest in sporting related injuries. I even saw a top surgeon on the
    private health scheme that missed my problem!
    
    My problem was the sciatic nerve getting trapped in my pelvis, caused
    by having one leg 1cm shorter than the other! 
    
    Poor car seats (or even inapropriate for me good ones) always made it
    worse. Orions/Escorts were just dreadfull. I could barely stand up
    after a short drive in one!
    
    Your Punto/back may get used to each other but if you do nothing your
    back WILL suffer in the long term.
    
    Go hassle your GP for a referral.  It worked a treat for me!
    
    Dave.  Burnett
    

    re .17 > big mistake getting a Punto
    
    Problem resolved at last.
    
    Yesterday I took over a six month old Astra GLS TD Estate and sent back
    my uncomfortable Punto.
    
    Royston