Conference terri::cars_uk

    thought I'd put this in Miscellany...
    
    Often when tootling along, you come to somewhere with a lower speed
    restriction - eg on the A4 you pass thru a little place with a 40
    limit, then later on hit Thatcham with a 30 limit. 
    
    When I come across these. I slow down to the limit, it seeming to be
    the sensible thing to do.  What do other people do?
    
    I ask because quite often I find people revving  hard up the back of
    my car, obviously not impressed with the fact that I'm not doing 60+. 
    I had a little chat with a pleasant chappie this morning, concerning
    the speed limit. Through his use of some of the more intersting Anglo
    Saxon adjectives, I got the impression that he thought speed limits
    were there for the ignoring, and anyone who slows down for them were a
    very low life form.
    
    Now, part of me thinks logically and says that I should observe the
    limit, and part of me feels guilty that I seem to be holding up theflow
    of traffic.
    
    Hmmmm
    
    ANy thoughts?
    
    Mikef

What annoys me is the 45/50 people on the A4. People with cars that could
easily and safely do 60, but they insist on doing only 45/50. And then to
make matters worse they continue at 45/50 through the 40 limits!

    I get the same thing on the A8, going from Corstorphine out to the
    Newbridge roundabout.  What annoys me is that all the people I overtake
    in the 70mph stretch then go sailing past me as I meander along
    at 40.  You know the type, cruise control jammed at 55?
    
    
    Ian.

    I slow down!. Two reasons, 
    
    one because it usually is a more dangerous area e.g. the aforementioned
    Woolhampton on the A4 twix Theale and Thatcham.
    
    Two because it's also by default a great place for the nick-nicks to
    sit clocking you!
    
    Richard

    
>>                        People with cars that could
>> easily and safely do 60, but they insist on doing only 45/50. And then to
    
    Maybe the _cars_ can safely handle 60, but what about the _drivers_?
    There are many people who don't feel safe driving any faster, or who
    dislike driving, and probably wouldn't drive at all, given the
    alternative. Surely (annoying as they are), it would be foolhardy to
    try to make them go any faster. 

    re -1.
    
    But does this really give these people the excuse of breaking 40 limits.
    I often get the feeling they know no different.  It's quite often when
    they attempt to do something out of the ordinary (park???) that they
    have problems.
    
    My immediate thoughts are that should these people really be on the
    road, particularly if they can't observe traffic signs.  I often
    wonder what state they're in - I mean the drivers.
    
    Helen.

    Surely with all the enviromental issues going on at the moment we
    should be trying to slow down, use less petrol, make less and shorter
    journey's, own smaller cars (ride bikes!!!) etc.
    
    Instead of this,  many car drivers want to travel faster and faster,
    commuting further distances to work and so on.
    
    What's wrong with 45 or 50mph, its still a respectable speed, and gets
    you where you want to go. 
    
    Chris

    Can we get 'go slower' stripes, so that we can go at 60+, but only look
    like 30?
    
    So what do people think?  What is the best way to deal with people who
    want you to break the limit, and how do I stop feeling guility about
    observing the limit?
    
    Mikef (who will happily tootle at 60)
    

    re .8
    
>  What's wrong with 45 or 50mph, its still a respectable speed, and gets
>    you where you want to go. 
    
    Thats ok over short distances, but have you tried doing 400 miles
    at 50 mph? Or even 200 miles (which I do twice a week every week).
    
    Tony
    

    The point is, go faster if you need to/want to,  but don't hassle
    people, ie drive up close, veer from left to right, if the're travelling
    slighty slower than you are

    
    I have no objection to people who drive slowly, as long as *they* have
    the consideration to other drivers, that they expect to be given to
    them.
    
    Sitting in the right lane of a dual carriageway doing 61 miles an hour
    is not being considerate.

    But how about trying desperatly to obey the speed limit, and being made
    to feel like a criminal?  Or something.
    
    If I know I amright in coming down to the speed limit, why do I feel so
    bad about it?  Maybe I'm still in the 'hyper-sensitive' phase of
    driving (less than 6 months).  
    Hmm
    
    Off to face the A4 now, and come down to 40 if the little sign says so.
    
    Mikef

Don't feel guilty about it.  Just think of all the lives you are
saving by forcing some maniac to drive sensibly for the first time in his life!

    
    Ian,
    
           try a camera with a powerful flash on it.....
    
                                             Regards,        Carl

>>    
    Ian,
    
           try a camera with a powerful flash on it.....
    
                                             Regards,        Carl
>>

remember someone telling me that he was flashing his headlights at a car in
 front of him on the m-way (to get him to move to a lane on the left) when
said car in front flashed a camera flash backwards (probably a passenger)


...art

    Errrrrr...... wasn't me, honest!!
    
    Actually, if I *did*, then I'd have an awful lot of pictures of
    cars < 10feet from my back bumper  - mostly on single lane country
    roads. None of us are perfect  - I'll admit I break the limit on
    occasions - but these jerks think 60 is OK through 30 mph zones,
    especially when they've got no hope of stopping for that horse around
    the next corner. I don't give a damn about these lot.... it's them
    hurting *me* that worries me....
    
                                            Carl
    

    It strikes me that temporarily blinding someone who is speeding in a
    built up (and therefore hazardous) area would be a fairly dangerous
    thing to do.
    
    
    John

with any luck they won't walk away from the resultant accident.

---

seriously though ...

/. Ian .\

>    If I know I amright in coming down to the speed limit, why do I feel so
>    bad about it?  Maybe I'm still in the 'hyper-sensitive' phase of
>    driving (less than 6 months).

	Stick to your guns Mike, it would appear that driving experience
    causes people to be selectively forgetful. (White circle with a black
    diagonal means ignore any further circles with red borders!!)

    Instead of feeling like a criminal practice feeling smug! You after all
    ARE in the right!

    	Ian.

    "Seen in passing"

    M4 this evening, a brown Rover 200 only just a cars length behind the
    car in front traveling at 80+ MPH with "Keep your distance" stickers
    all over the rear bumper. Hypocritical or what?

There is only one way to deal with tailgaters, and that is to wait until 
you reach a really dangerous place to overtake and wave them past!

Dave.

    Dave
    
    I hope you accidentally missed off the smiley face.
    
    The only safe way to deal with tailgaters is to allow his stopping
    distance as well as your own between you and the guy in front.
    
    You are entitled to drive at any speed you wish provided you are
    within any legal limits (whatever you may think about the existence
    of such limits - see another topic) and provided you are not travelling
    so slowly as to cause an obstruction - by which I mean walking the
    dog with the lead through the window on an otherwise clear A road,
    or summat.
    
    I do agree, though, with those who talk about the multi lane hoggers;
    whatever speed you are doing, you should keep to the left if you
    are not overtaking. This allows those who want to travel faster
    - legally or not - to overtake as safely as possible.
    
    Steve

re .25:

Sorry, thought this was the stupid answers topic

Dave.

    
    When I was back in Wales a few months back a local chap was prosecuted
    for causing obstruction, due care & attention, lack of something
    for fellow travellers etc. 
    
    Plod had joined end of long queue moving at 25mph in 40mph zone.
    Said fellow was at front - this went on for 4 miles. Plod then busted
    driver who was causing the hold-up - he was convicted & fined a
    reasonable amount, plus points.
    
     
    

    Ah, but wasn't this chappie on the  A470  outside Pontypridd,  A
    motorway style dual carriageway with pedestrian restrictions and
    a 70mph limit.
    
    Chris 

    re : tailgaters
    
    Come on admit it, everybody has got that little too bit close once
    in while.
    
    BUT, people who constantly 'tailgate' are a pain. They do make you
    feel awkward because you start to worry about them hitting you aswell
    as you hitting the car in front. It's the same as if a policeman
    if following - eh? ;-) 
    
    When someone 'tailgates' me, i just take my foot off the accelerator
    (i dont slam on the brakes! - not anymore anyway ;-)) and slow down
    slowly. I don't particulary want some one to hit me up the jacksy
    (sp?), so slowly is ok. Then i think they realise something, and
    they tend to back off until they can safely overtake.
    
    Thats what happens with me anyway.

    I agree, i'm sick and tired of people who drive far to close to the
    front of my car.......
    
    ..Craig

    Re: Tailgaters
    
    I find that switching on rear foglights usually causes 'em to drop
    back rather quickly.... I guess 'cos they instinctively react as
    though I've braked.
    
    (Works well too, with folk that think they don't need to dip their
    headlights unless there's oncoming traffic.)
    
    Paul

    Re: .31 (Tailgaters)              
                          
    Or a quick squirt of the rear wash-wipe!
                          
    It doesn't half p**s them off when the fine droplets of water hit
    their windscreen, and the first swipe of the wipers smears the squashed
    flies across the glass.
    
    Just smile quietly to yourself as they drop back, washers and wipers
    ablaze, trying to get some visibility back!
    
    mb

Yea! and have you tried dipping the clutch, selecting a lower gear, 
touching the brakes and then letting the clutch out while flooring the 
accelerator pedal? Tailgater locks up, skidding off the road while you 
disappear into the distance. Works best just before a bend.

Dave.

...yawn. Not this old rathole again...

i get folk driving very close behind me as i drive into dec park...

i drive over the speed bumps very slowly (since my car has v.stiff suspension)
by slowly i mean crawl speed,
most people drive over them much faster than do; & whenever theres someone
behind me they'll drive literally four inches close to me unless they charge 
past waving a fist...


i thought speed bumps were there to slow cars down... seems like some people use
them as an obstacle course


...art

Best cure for tailgaters: get the kids to kick a hay bale off load...

works every time!

/. Ian .\
































did I really need a smiley?

I drive the green Landrover, going over the ramps is not the most pleasant of
things to do in a Landy. So I always slow right down.  

On one particular day I did just this, I then indicate to turn right into the
car park bay, and just as I start to turn, this "person" overtakes me cutting
me up, causing me to brake somewhat harder than that is good for your nerves.

Come on guys, lets have a bit of patience out there.

Simon.

..and certain kitcars could use them for race practice

I remember in my student days we didn't have windscreen washers on cars, unless
you wne to Halfords and bought a huge pump thingy that stuck 3" out of the dash!
Most of us got into the habit of carrying Sqeezy bottles (remember them?) full
of water - stick your hand out of the window and squirt method.  Seems like a 
similar idea with the bottle pointing rearwards would work wonders for shifting
a tailgater - especially if the bottle contained something nicely obnoxious
such as Hirondelle for example ....

    
    Its not the height of the speed bump that matters, its the severity of
    the change from the adjacent road surface on to it. 
    
    In Gloucester city centre they have notorious  long, straight and narrow 
    Victorian streets, where the local speed merchants used to race at up 
    to 70mph. They slowed them down by inserting rows of bricks into the road. 
    These bricks are raised 1" above the road surface.
    
    Chris

The speed bumps slow me down (4" clearance and hard suspension).  Of course
I get the odd wally who drives too close, but, in the main, people back off
and give me room.  However, you're correct, the only people who slow down
because of the speed bumps are people with daft cars, the lease car majority
hit them pretty hard.  Who gives a damn, it's not my car!  The worst ones are
those in Queens House Reading.  Just the first two.  If I keep to the extreme
right and go very, very, slowly, I avoid scraping my exhaust.  The first time
I met these things, I scraped the label off my brand new exhaust and melted
the tarmac.  Chicanes?  Good, idea.  What fun on a quiet evening...

Dave

	Chicanes seem to work very well in Holland, where they've been tested
	in quite a few areas. The main "slowing down agent" is still the
	"drempel" though. These are about 6" high, but are very rounded and 
	even a 23 should get over one, with care !


	Gordon

>>         <<< Note 49.44 by VANTEN::MITCHELLD "23=>42|skate=>Answer" >>>
>>4" luxury sheer luxury 
>>I 've only got 85mm, clearance that it is!

    Oh you mean 3 1/2 inches??. Not a lot of difference is there?.
    
    Richard

	If you've got a car that won't clear these bumps just try
	going at them at a steady speed. If you get it right the
	car's springs will lift it up and over the bump when the
	front wheels rebound. If you get it just right you hardly
	notice the things are there.

	I discovered this when I had an MGB with insufficient
	ground clearance for some beurocrats brainchild and found
	that at about 25mph it simply breezed over them.

	-John (who only drove at 15mph before the bumps arrived)

The ramps don't do any damage to the Landy so once or twice (when it's quiet) I
have taken a ramp at 30 MPH. Due to the solid nature of the suspension on said
Landy the back wheels actually leave the tarmac, all be it a small amount.

This was great fun, but a bit of a shock for the poor s_d who was sat in the 
back.

			;-)

Simon (permission for take off granted) French.

I've noticed quite a few people drive over the bumps alarmingly fast, as then
the driver doesn't feel them so much.  I assume these people are ignorant of the
damage they are doing their car:
  "If I can't feel it, then I'm sure the car can't either..."
or some such rationale.

Patches of cobbles would be better than bumps, as the alarming noise made when
driving over them (plus vibration) might encourage people to slow down.

Scott

PS Or have a resident Mr Plod to hand out speeding fines...

Years ago I drove a Spitfire Mk1 with collapsed rear suspension - it didn't
know the meaning of ground clearance!  Anyway, I hit a bump in the road outside
Doncaster pulling out of the road in which I lived; the council in their
wisdon had made the main road about 1.5" higher than the side road to discourage
people driving in and out at high speed!  Anyway, said height difference ripped
the exhaust off the Spit, so I sent a letter of complaint to the council along
with receipt for new exhaust.  They paid up!  And flattened the "bump".

The legal stance is that if there is no warning sign of bumps ahead, then the
people who caused the bump pay for the damage caused, if any.  Wonder if DEC
know about this????  :-)

    The problem is all you guys with so-called sports suspension!. 
    
    My Visa likes them at above 20MPH. Then all you get is a muted "dub
    dub". No bounce no shocks no bumps!. Any slower and it hurts me.
    
    P.S. It's my own car, 8 years old,  Not a company car, just french
    suspension (coils not hydraulics). I view it like cattle grids,
    Taken at 5 MPH they sound and feel awful. At high speed they don't seem
    to exist.
    
    Richard

>>  <<< Note 49.52 by BRIANH::NAYLOR "12 cylinders gone (sob!)  Only 4 left." >>>
>>                  -< Bumps can be costly - for the council! >-

>>The legal stance is that if there is no warning sign of bumps ahead, then the
>>people who caused the bump pay for the damage caused, if any.  Wonder if DEC
>>know about this????  :-)
The ones in DEC park have big signs saying RAMP !.
    
    Richard
    

    re .53:
    
    since when did Land Rovers have "sports suspension"?
    
    /. Ian .\

    
>>The ramps don't do any damage to the Landy so once or twice (when it's quiet) I
    
    They didn't actually do any damage to my Landy, it just caused one of
    the wires to move, and start shorting out the HT side, so no spark -
    and no go! Blocked the car park for about 15 mins looking for the
    problem! :-)
    

...who is/are the moderator(s) for this conference?

Scott

    Umm, do a SHOW MEM at the Notes prompt....
    
    It gives you 
    
     HEALEY           MARVIN              MARVIN::HEALEY           
     MORGAN           IPG,VOGON,HENRI,    IPG::MORGAN              
                      ROSBIF
     RDAVIES          RDGENG,VARIO,       RDGENG::RDAVIES          

    
    Peter.
             

    Notes conflict!
    

    RE: 
    NOTES> SHO MODerator   (not SHOW MEMber)
    
    re: .59.....no it doesn't, it gives:
                                   CARS_UK conference
    Created: 10-DEC-1987 12:11         1116 topics        Updated:
    15-JUN-1990 12:27
                              -< Please Sign In - Note 3 >-
     Moderator        Access              Mail Address                  
    Privileges
     HEALEY           MARVIN::HEALEY      MARVIN::HEALEY                [M]
     MORGAN           HENRI::MORGAN,      IPG::MORGAN                   [M]
                      IPG::MORGAN,
                      ROSBIF::MORGAN,
                      VOGON::MORGAN
     RDAVIES          RDGENG::RDAVIES,    RDGENG::RDAVIES               [M]
                      UKCSSE::RDAVIES,
                      VARIO::RDAVIES
     SYSTEM           MARVIN              MARVIN::SYSTEM                [M]
     End of requested listing
    
    Thanks for pointing this out, my mail is out of date as I'm no longer
    on RDGENG.
    
    Richard

    Today, Firday the 6th, there is a grey convertable BMS 3-series in the
    end car park, behind DP II, with it's lights on.
    
    Should anybody know who it belongs to then please tell the driver
    
    Rich
    

    Anyone know what a reasonable price would be for a Maserati Biturbo ?
    
    	(D reg, apparently the first one imported to the UK)
    
    J.R.

    
    5k? They're very cheap.
    
    Mark

    Maserati Biturbo
    
>>    5k? They're very cheap.
    
    Really that cheap ?  One I've seen is advertised at 13K !
    
    I've looked in the 'Buyers Guides' at the newsagent and they do not
    list anything from Maserati.  Nor does a 'trade use only' Black Book
    that I have access to.  Anyone able to check in Glasses Guide ?
    
    
    Does anyone know anything about them ?
    
    I'm not even sure of the engine size/configuration !!!
    
    J.R.

    
    Well, ok maybe I was a little low, but I reckon those in the 10k+
    bracket must be exceptional. I've certainly seen them for sale for
    about 8k (in MN).
    
    They don't have a very good reputation.
    
    Mark

    
    I think Mark's 5k is about right. Dealer prices are a lot higher.
    But if you look through the Sunday Times "Motors for sale" I'm
    sure you'll find a couple at well below dealer price. 
    
    I think Performance Car or somesuch did a review of these beasts
    about 6 months ago. They said the Mk2 was a much better car than
    the earlier models. 
    
    Personally, I think the Spyder looks great... but I couldn't afford
    to keep it on the road!
    
    Richard.

    
    Oh, BTW, they're V6 engines about 2.5 litres, I believe.
    
    I THINK the name BiTurbo was dropped on later models (I could easily
    be wrong!), but they were indeed improved as time went on. The attempts
    to race one in the BTCC didn't help the car's reputation as a vehicle
    with Cosworth beating potential and THE name was often seen to be
    holding up the privateer Corollas!
    
    Mark

>>                 -< Nice... but think of the cost of spares! >-
    
    Expensive spares aren't such a problem if you don't need to buy them.
    
    What is the story on 'unreliability' of these cars then ?
    
    
>>    about 6 months ago. They said the Mk2 was a much better car than
>>    the earlier models. 
    
    When did the later models come about (what year/reg) ?
    
    J.R.

>>	Would have bought it but I received the bill for my GTV
>>	rebuild just after test driving the Biturbo, and suddenly
>>	driving my girlfriend's Micra didn't seem so bad after all...

    Similar situation here.  My GTV would appreciate some work doing.
    
    Buying a more expensive car doesn't seem a sensible idea, but does it ever ?
    
    
    My current situation is that I would basically 'like a change' in my
    selection of vehicles.  I like the Alfa, but would like something a
    bit faster.  I may convince myself to keep it and spend some dosh on
    improving it somewhat, but all the time I keep an eye out for anything
    which I could find 'interesting' or 'desirable' (NB I am married !).
    
    My other idea may be to sell the Heep and buy an oldish Range Rover,
    which I could then modify quite substantially.  In fact, I've just
    bought an Off-Road magazine which describes all the details involved
    in doing the body modification which I would consider to an R.R.
    
    
>>	PS. I've got 3 Car articles I could post you on the Biturbo

    I don't want to get myself too interested now, I may make a purchase !
    
    I'm actually going for a drive of the one I've seen this weekend, but
    I don't really expect to buy it (especially if price isn't good).
    
    J.R.

    re.68
    
    The engines are either 2.5Litre Twin Turbo or in later cars 2.8Litre
    245-270bhp V6 engines.
    
    They also use 3 valves per cylinder.
    
    
    Grant

    The engine is smooth and brilliant. The built quality is far from being
    a constant. I've seen engines replaced under warranty after 2000 miles.
    
    The worst part is the suspension, both front and rear. Roadholding
    worse than previous BMW 300.

>>    The worst part is the suspension, both front and rear. Roadholding
>>    worse than previous BMW 300.
    
    By this, do you mean that the back-end has poor control, or all of it ?
    
    
    As for the car I will [probably] drive this weekend, it is owned by
    the boss of the local Renault dealership.  It just happens that he
    used to be one of the top dogs in the company which previously
    imported Maserati cars (now gone bust).  He has two for sale, the
    one I mentioned being cheaper (with FSH).  As a result, it seems 
    that he *should* have had any necessary work done on this car, with
    his 'connections'.  That still doesn't mean it's a good buy now.
    
    Whatever, I think I'll take a drive out of sheer interest.  Unless
    it comes over as being exceptionally 'special' that'll be the end of it.
    If I am swayed, I would then have to go into financial discussions,
    but I think I would find it hard to argue about the value of this car,
    since the current owner will know *lots* more than me about them.
    
    J.R.

    I'm interested in your comments after you drive the car. Recently they
    have had some cars fitted with special electronically controlled shocks
    and that improved the handling.
    
    My own experience is that the car rolled a lot. All 4 wheels could
    induce changes in direction on bumps. Back end very easy to put ahead
    of front end when cornering and powering.

    
    
    RE a few back.
    
    Someone was lookig for some info on the ALFA Romeo 33S 16v.
    
    Well I have the following info taken from A&M.
    
    ALFA ROMEO 33S 16v PERMANENT 4.
    
    FOR.....Charismatic engine, quite roomy, well equipped.
    
    AGAINST... Surprisingly little grip, awful driving position, noisy.
    
    VERDICT... 2 out of 5 star rating. For Alfa die-hards only.
    
    This 33 marks the end of the line for the unloved 'Sud successor.
    Developed to an extraordinary degree over the years, a bigger engine,
    four valves per cylinder, four canshafts, fuel injection and even
    four-wheel drive have not been enough to paper over the cracks in
    this ageing design.
    
    Simply put, there is now a wealth of hatches available that can not
    only match this 33's straight line performance with ease but also
    pulls away convincingly on a twisting road thanks to vastly superior
    handling. For the truth is that, even with viscous coupling four
    wheel drive, the 33 still loses grip at modest speeds, wet or dry.
    
    Enthusiasts will point to the engines invigorating nature and fizzy
    exhaust note, which still makes it one of the most distinctive
    powerplants you can buy, and the roomy five door body and generous
    equipment levels suggest the 33 is a fine sports hatch with an eye
    on family considerations. BUT buyers also have to tolerate a short
    legged, offset driving position sending their toes to sleep, a 
    rubbery gearchange and noisy motorway progress. In the end, the list
    of demerits is too long to justify the car to any but the most fervent
    ALFA supporter.
    
                    --------------------------------------
    
    If you want a hatch then go for another Marque. If you want an
    ALFA wait for the 155 which has been getting positive reviews.
    Alternatively go for a 75, last of the gear box/axle over the
    rear wheels design. You'll have to be quick though. Maybe a
    164  ?? Personally I want a 75.
    
    JN.
    
    

    I went to the dealer this weekend and got a drive of the Biturbo.
    
    First, some comments on the car (as relayed by the sales rep):
    
    	It is owned by Nick May, who was a director of Maserati UK.
    	He apparently races a red Maserati (but the rep didn't know in
    	which championship) and also has another road-going one for sale.
    
    	This particular car, in black, is supposedly the first of this
    	shape to be brought into the country.  It has different wheels
    	and a 'body kit'.  Doesn't look too bad, except for boot spoiler.
    	Also, it has fuel injection as a 'retro-fit', since the later
    	models came with this as standard.
    
    	Overall condition I would put as 'fair'.  The edges of the front
    	wheel arches are starting to show signs of surface rust.  There
    	are a few rust bubbles under the paintwork in various places and
    	the leather on the rear 'shoulders' of the front seats is ruined.
    
    	It is to be 'restored' by a company associated with the dealer.
    	The current price tag is supposed to include that work.
    
    	One little 'story' I was told is that the dashboard has an
    	electronic speedometer, and that there is apparently an occasional
    	short-circuit within the dash.  This has the effect of causing
    	the odometer to clock up additional miles, even when not moving.
    	This was 'demonstrated' by the fact that when revving the car at
    	a standstill, the speedo needle would occasionally jump up the
    	scale (it wasn't due to vibration of the dash).  I am prepared to
    	accept that there is an electrical gremlin in there (it is Italian)
    	and that it can affect the speedo.  If the odometer is not on a
    	mechanical connection, then it would also affect that.  But I was
    	then told that this fault had caused 15,000 miles to be clocked up
    	that had not actually been covered (on a total of 60-odd thousand).
    	I'd like to know how anyone is supposed to be able to work that out !
    
    Anyone, on to the driving:
    
    	The dealer took the car out first, to fill up with petrol half a
    	mile down the road.  Then it was my turn.  First impressions,
    	light clutch, short travel gearlever, light steering, responsive
    	throttle, very nice sound.  Driving position was quite comfortable. 
    
    	Start of my route involved driving with a fair bit of traffic,
    	where the car felt fine - seeing as all controls were light.
    	The engine was certainly good on torque, being happy to pull
    	from low-down with no complaints, still with good response.
    
    	When I got to some 'bendy bits', the feel was not so good.
    	The steering, which had felt light, then felt to be 'nervous'.
    	It could be that the turn-in was just a lot better than I am
    	used to of late, but having started to turn, the car then seemed
    	to feel a bit 'unsure' of itself.  Hard to explain at this point.
    
    	When I reached some road with some mild humps/bumps in it, the
    	car really did feel bad.  Basically, it was softly sprung and the
    	dampers were either also quite soft, or needed replacing.  Driving
    	over this surface, I had absolutely no confidence in being able to
    	turn the car through bends with any accuracy (or speed).  It was
    	floating over some bumps and dropping into the dips on others, with
    	the sensitive steering not helping the feel of control at all.
    	
    	When pulling out from a junction, I got the chance to do some hard
    	acceleration and found that it did put the power down in a straight
    	line with no real problem.  Also, when travelling at about 80-100
    	mph, slight depression of the throttle brought about a good urge
    	from the engine (turbo's working about their best at this speed).
    	With my lack of faith in the handling, I did not try using the
    	power through any bends (not to any real degree anyhow).  I did find
    	that when using the brakes lightly, there was a certain amount of
    	'wobble' through the steering wheel.  That was probably something
    	such as a warped disc or two - although the brakes did work well.
    
    So, a conclusion would be that the car 'needs some work', which the
    dealer is supposedly going to be doing anyway.  With that work done,
    I would still be unsure of the handling, which may be noticeably
    better if dampers are changed, but I did love the engine (and the trim
    inside - leather and wood everywhere).  The fact that the owned of the
    car was a boss at Maserati should mean that any required work was
    always done should be a good point.  The fact that he is a 'racer'
    may mean that the car has been worked quite hard.  Who knows.
    
    The dealer has said he will contact me for another viewing/drive when
    the car has had the work done.  I'll probably go out again in it then,
    but I seriously doubt I would buy it.   An Integrale would be better...
    
    J.R.

	A question for the panel, but let me first set the scene.

	Take an unlit cul-di-sac, in a village with three street lights,
	and with a dark car parked within three or so houses length from 
	the exit of the road.
	The car is pointing in the direction of traffic - so from that 
	point of view all is well.
	The car is covered each night with a black or navy nylon cover
	which goes down to bumper level, completely obscuring lights and
	reflectors.

	Avoiding it on a good night is bad enough, on a foggy night,
	almost impossible.

	Apart from trying to locate the owner and asking them nicely
	to add reflective strips to their cover, is there anything
	else I can do to prevent myself and others re-arranging his
	'K' reg car on a foggy night ?

	Judy
    
        (Hopefully this is the right place to ask to put this note.
    	I'm sure some kind person will re-direct it if not.)
    
    

    I think:-
    A car can not be parked within 15metres of a junction and on an unlit
    road must show lights.
    If you live in a village is there a "local' policeman? When we lived in
    a village there was and he/she would firstly speak to minor offenders
    and only book persistent trouble makers. Also the parish council might
    take an interest.
    
    Andrew

>   Also the parish council might take an interest.

	Something I have learnt over the last two years is that the Parish 
	council can't do anything very much.

	If its an illegal car-parking matter they'd refer it to the police,
	if it's a bylaw matter, to the district(town) council(ors).

	Heather - who is thinking of resigning from the Parish Council

    Stick a note on it saying "Sorry about the dent" - Anon, of course.
    
    He'll have to pull the covers and look for it.  Might start him
    thinking...
    
    Richard
    
    

    BETTER YET!	If you have a 'K' reg (1972-3ish) why not give his "K'
    (1992-93) a little shunt, then insist on getting the police involved
    (take care to ensure poor viability conditions) this way you are not to
    blame and the culprit would almost certainly learn a painful & possibly
    expensive lesson.
    
    Please do not misinterpret what I am saying... a little shunt is what
    you want... a damaged valance or something...
    
    Bob

    Well, I don't quite know who said what to him, but the new 'K'
    reg has been replaced by a 'C' reg which to date has not been 
    covered.  
    Thanks for the ideas - I'll probably keep some yellow stickies
    ready.  I don't fancy filling in one of those dreaded DIGITAL
    insurance forms.
    
    Judy

    Hi - does anyone out there have one of the PHH books which list Garage
    phone numbers?  I'm looking for the number of a Vauxhall dealer in
    Crewe (Cheshire)?  Can anyone help?
    
    TA
    
    Mikef (Mike Fiddler @olo)
    
     

    The Southbound entry to the M6 at Junction 21 will be closed all day
    this friday (15th OCt).  Anyone southward bound from the Warrington
    office, I guess the M62 route is better?
    
    Mikef

    Anyone know if there is a Vauxhall dealer near the Warrington office? 
    (reachable within a lunch break).
    
    Thanks
    
    Mikef 

    re-1 Ta
    
    Mikef

    Re: .1
    
    Vauxhall Dealer
    
    PLP Motors
    Winwick Road
    Warrington
    
    0925 51311
    
    I've never used them - in fact I'm so dis-chuffed with the whole
    Vauxhall company car thing that I'm planning to drop out of the scheme
    next time (if I'm still here then).
    
    PS. Winwick road is the A49 between town and the M62.
    
    
    Steve.

    I posted this in NOTED::MOTORCYCLES (note 711) but haven't received a reply
    yet.
    
    I saw picture of Barry Sheen with the caption ILLNESS on the news 
    last night but the tele was in a pub with the sound turned down.
    Whats the story here ?
    
    Royston

	Barry has fully recovered from ME was the news.

	The means of curing himself was also part of the news - he immersed
(sp?) himself in a cold bath for 20 minutes at a time.  I didn't catch how often
he did that, nor for what period of time the treatment continued, nor even who
suggested the method of treatment.

				Malcolm.

    I'm hunting around for a seconh-hand car and having settled on one type
    I find myself wavering.  Can the team offer comments?
    
    I'm looking at a second-hand diesel, either of a Mercedes estate (I think
    240TD, the estate version of what is used for taxis in Europe) or a
    Citroen CX Safari.  I am going for these since they are fairly capacious,
    will take all the junk that I ever want to trundle around and seem
    relatively cheap to run.  In either case, neither car will be a youngster.
    In my waverings I am thinking of spending ~4 000 Sterling.
    
    Since there seem to be relatively few of these in Britain I am thinking
    about looking in the bits of continental Europe which are close to
    Britain as I presume there will be a larger supply.  I have had a LHD
    car since 1981 so it doesn't concern me which side the steering wheel is.
    Questions:
    
    1	am I right in thinking there are few of these in Britain?
    
    2	am I right in thinking the supply is greater on the eastern side of
        the North Sea?
    
    3	if (2) is true are there any tips on where to look, are there any
        garages I can call (my French is passable, my Flemish non-existent)?
    
    4	any idea of prices for (2) for one of the youngest examples (1986
    	for Merc?, 1991 for Safari?)?  (Since I only do about 6 000 miles/
    	10 000km per annum I am as concerned to have something which is not
    	a pile of rust as I am with mechanical well-being.  My current car is
    	heading for the scrap yard because of rust, holes, noise, water-ingres,
    	etc, not through poor mechanical health.)
    
    5	any views on maintenace of either and the cost or availability of
    	spares?  E.g. are Merc spares very pricey and in restricted supply,
    	or are there dealers who can obtain Merc original bits at low prices,
    	e.g. as with Jaguars through adverts in the Jaguar club magazine?
    
    6	any other comments, remarks, queries.
    
    Richard.

    I'd query your statement about a Citroen CX being cheap to run.
    
    I had a CX Athena for a couple of years and it cost me a lot.  New
    exhaust, new clutch, new clutch cable, the tyres are quite big.  I
    managed to slide into the back of a Mercedes and broke the rear light
    of the Mercedes then spent the next six months repairing the Citroen
    from scrap yards (it was almost a write off)!  Someone at the same
    workplace as me had a Mercedes which cost nothing more than routine
    servicing and maintenance :-(  I'd still love to get a CX GTi Turbo 2
    one day though :-(
    
    tmp
                      

    Esso are now stopping their "tiger token" scheme.
    
    I'm left with not quite enough for a desirable gift and too many to
    throw away, well without a fight!
    
    If anyone is in a similar position and wishes to donate or reach an
    "understanding" I'd be interested.
    
    Andrew Dodd @LZO 845 2124

    You can trade your tiger tokens in at Jet garages for wotsit points.
    
    HTH,
    
    Chris

...just stopping Lozzer from snarfing...

    #$^%^*%^@$%!

In a bored moment the other day, I worked out that, in my 8 years of driving, 
I've clocked up around 250,000 miles.  That must be a record for someone who 
has hated driving from the outset, and has always used every reason and excuse 
to get out of it...

Chris.

Umm - in my 10 years with DEC, at about 40,00 per year, thats 400,000. 
Then my previous life at around 25,000 for 10 years - thats up to 
650,000. Then my biking days, 6 years at about 10,000 per year - up to 
710,000

Alan

    Did any folks happen to spot an Opel Manta in the car park this morning
    with the lights on and report it to security? E933 DTF is the reg#
    
    
    
    				Stretch

    Why not ask security ?  Wouldn't they know if someone had spoken to
    them ?
    
    /tmp

    Trevor,
    
    There is a reason for asking the question this way round.
    
    
    
    				Stretch.

    Which is?
    

    Goldy,
    
    Is the telepathy not woking today then?
    
    
    		
    				Stretch.

    RE:.107
    
    Seems obvious to me.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    Does your reason translate to 
    'thanks for telling me I left my lights on!'
    
    Royston

    Stretch,
    
    Do security (or anyone that doesn't read this conference) know that you
    drive an Opel Manta?
    
    Goldy.

Even if someone reported it to security, they only take note and attempt to 
trace the driver out of the goodness of their hearts and depending on how 
busy they are. If you haven't registered your car with security the chances
are they'd give up fairly quickly.

Dave.