Conference terri::cars_uk

    
    You've had Volvo drivers not see you, I've had the oposite problem my
    last accident was a lady driver of 30mumblish in a Volvo 240 who saw me
    indicate left (when I didn't) and pulled out right in front of me in
    the wet, I hit the brakes but it was too late I had the choice of
    hitting her! or pulling across the road into oncoming traffic, so I hit
    her car!
    But my wife used to drive a Volvo (but she's alright now) 
    
    Richard

re.0:

Of course owning and driving a Volvo does not make you a bad driver. My last
three accidents were:-

1 Volvo crossed centre of road and rammed my car in the side (he claimed faulty 
  brakes but was proved to be at fault).

2 Mercedes reversed into me in a car park (note: not a Volvo).

3 Volvo ran in the back of me at a junction.

There, that proves it.

Dave.

    I can't remember which motorcycle brake part maufacturer it was, but one
    of them had an advertisement a few years ago that featured a picture of a 
    brake disk and underneath it:
    
    "Tested by Volvo drivers"                   
    
    Phil Gill.

    That's almost as bad as those Skoda ads which inform us that they do
    proper inspections of their cars now they are owned by VW...
    
    ...makes you wonder what they used to do pre-VW?!?!?!?

    >>That's almost as bad as those Skoda ads which inform us that they do
    >>proper inspections of their cars now they are owned by VW...
    
    >>...makes you wonder what they used to do pre-VW?!?!?!?
    
    Err, I think you've missed the point. The ad was a joke, a dig at Volvo
    drivers from the motorcycling fraternity who are not the world's
    greatest fans of drivers of those cars.
    
    Phil Gill.

    So, I'm ratholing?...
    
    ...I seem to be good at it!

    
    Ah yes, but WHAT does it prove?? That two Volvo drivers, out of x
    thousand are not good drivers? Perhaps they were the same two that went
    into my car.....?
    
    My point was that not ALL Volvo drivers are bad - I drive a Volvo and
    I'm GOOD! In fact, when I've previously enquired about insurance for my
    car, and asked whether there would be discount for an Advanced Driver's
    certificate, I was told that it is already assumed that Volvo drivers
    are particulary safe drivers, and that was reflected in the premium!
    (yes, really!)
    
    J
    
    

Watch out for drivers who actually think they are good ;-)

Mark

    
    I get the impression that there is one Volvo driver out there who
    spends all his time ramming other drivers all over the country & at all
    times of day & night. It seems he also rams fellow Volvo driver's cars
    as well.
    
    Next time you are involved in an accident with a Volvo Driver, please
    take his photograph, then compare it with those taken by other noters.
    
    I think you'll find its the same person who drove a Volvo out of a 1st
    floor window. He's made of wood & has a BMW badge where his ear should
    be, but he could be wearing a disguise.
    
    Yes, I think that could account for all the horrific Volvo disasters &
    hard-luck stories. I saw the advert, Volvo-man definitely walked away
    from the accident.
    
    Tony.

    I drove a Volvo......once.  That was quite enough.
    
    But seriously....here in Calgary, Volvos, particularly the disreputable
    looking ones sem to have become the transport of choice for the younger
    set (late teens).  Most of them are looking a bit run down (the cars,
    that is) and I don't suppose they will get much better.  All of this
    ends up in this statement:  I think in this case it will be the cars in
    combination with the well known driving abilities of the teen set
    (sarcasm here) that will cause the safety problem.
    
    Brian Pituley
    
    

    Thank your lucky starts this phantom Volvo driver hasn't found a land
    rover yet :-]

    
    Of course we all accept that it's not fair to tar everyone with the
    same brush, but why do they test drive them out of the top floor of
    buildings if they don't expect that sort of thing out of the average
    driver?  8^] seem's pretty pointless to me unless you expect people to do
    it! 8*)
    
    Richard 

    Jackie
    
    Loved the base note......
    
    I drove my brother-in-law's Volvo around Devon and Cornwall for a week
    a few years back, you know down all those single track roads with high
    hedges? I have to say that the tank nature of the car does give you a
    certain feeling of invincibility which was scary. It's the same with
    many BIG cars, Rollers are the same (get out of my way I'm in a Roller
    and if you hit me I'll not only do more damage to your rust heap but it
    will cost you...) Toyota Land Tanks also spring to mind, the one that
    rammed me from behind whilst I was stationary trying not to run over
    the guy crossing at a pelican crossing and jumping the red light.
    
    If everyone drove a Panda the roads would be a lot safer (Alan if you're 
    reading this...except on the M56 going to the airport!) because you would 
    be scared s------s of having an accident!
    
    Another Allen

    
    That's why so many Vegetarians drive 2CV's (cos they don't go fast
    enough to hurt anything if they hit it!) Do they Royston?
    
    Richard 

    
    Richard, don't bring me into this.
    
    Royston :-)

    I'm sure there are good Volvo drivers, but....
    
    A Capitol Radio phone-in about 5 years ago showed them to be the least
    popular drivers in London, worse than black cabs, minicabs and buses. 
    People were asked why, and the reply was generally to do with driver
    arrogance.
    
    My mother was a Volvo driver and knew about the safety features.  As
    she grew accustomed to the car she became more and more assured of her
    immunity from danger.  So much so that she'd take frightening risks and
    became an unpleasantly, belligerent driver.  In the end I took to
    manufacturing reasons why I wouldn't be a passenger when she drove -- I
    hadn't got the confidence in the immunity of the car and couldn't
    handle the embarassment of some of the things she did.

    It is true that (in the UK) Volvos are involved in fewer accidents than
    many other cars. A major factor in this is that aggressive,
    inexperienced or foolhardy drivers do not tend to select Volvos.
    
    However, what is also true is that Volvos are the worst offenders for
    accidents involving road users on two wheels or on foot. (Published
    accident stats.) It may well be argued that these accidents arise from
    just not being a very good driver. Volvos are well liked by the
    insurance companies because these tend to be low payout accidents.
    
    Do poor drivers select Volvos because they believe that they will be
    better in the inevitable accident? The safety issue is a real example
    of the power of advertising. We all know that Volvos are especially
    safe because they ads say so. The facts are different: Remember maths O
    level? Well, go and work out how hard a car hits the ground if it is
    driven out of a first floor window. Then compare the impact with the
    standard 30mph frontal impact for Euro approvals. Yes, any car on sale
    today would perform similarly to the Volvo.
    
    Compare the published stats for survival and injury severity rates for
    different cars. Some things stand out concerning Volvos:
    
    You are better off in an accident if you are in a big car. Since the
    average Volvo is rather bigger than the average car, they are 'safer'
    than the average car.
    
    Within their size groups, Volvos are about average.
    
    I'm not trying to pick on any individual driver (Volvo, XR3i or
    whatever) just painting some backgournd. Also, I wonder why everyone
    seems to believe (at least conciously) that they are much better
    drivers than the average. The insurance industry rates 'average' as
    being one accident every 30,000 miles or so. Where do we all stand?
    
    I expect that everyone in here is safer than average because that
    figure is pulled low by 18 year olds averaging one ding every 10,000
    miles.
    
    John O'Connor

    To state the obvious...........
    I suppose the number of Volvo's on the road will have an effect on
    the chance of them being involved in an accident! 
    
    I believe the false feeling of security is probably responsible for a
    lot of road accidents with any 4 wheel vehicle.
    How many Volvo drivers pull out in front of large articulated lorries?
    
    If everyone was required to ride a motorcycle for a year, I'm sure they
    would get a better perception of the dangers on the road!
    
    Tim
    
    
    

        Ref .18
        
        I did ride motorbikes on & off, over several years, and became 
        very well aware that a large percentage of car drivers do not see 
        anything that is not on four wheels. I agree that if everyone had 
        a spell of riding a bike, the number of car/bike accidents would 
        be much diminished. 
        
        Equally, I have some experience of large lorries, and am aware of 
        the capabilities and restrictions of their manoeuvres, and so 
        can, and do, make allowances. But, as in all areas of driving, 
        there are bad lorry drivers who take advantage of the size of 
        their vehicle to 'play games' with other road users. Anyone been 
        stuck behind two lorries driving in parallel on a duel 
        carriageway...?
        
        I certainly enjoy the feeling of safety when driving a Volvo, but 
        don't believe that it leads me to take unnecessary risks - I like 
        the shape of it as it is! Some people will take mad risks 
        whatever they are driving, eg. XR2s, XR3s......
        
        J

Ref .19

Duel carriageway
^^^^^


couln't resist it especially as it seems kind of apt to action you describe

Alan

    Is it pistols at dawn? Or should it really be a joust carriageway?

    re .17
    
    To be fair to Volvos - as opposed to their drivers :-) they are
    more than 'averagely' safe. Both the Road Transport Research Lab 
    and the German ADAC published reports showing BMW/Volvo/Mercedes
    as the three safest mid-size cars.
    
    Presumably during these crash tests they were driven by dummies?
    mmm mmm mmm.
    
    Richard. 

    
    I confess, I drive - albeit not very often - a Volvo.
    
    However, I don't consider myself to be a *good* driver; just careful and 
    considerate. This applies whether I drive the Volvo or any other car. 
    
    I must admit I do treat *mainstream* Volvo drivers with a lot of
    caution, but certainly no more than I would the young XR-whatever
    driver, Company-Rep Sierra/Cavalier driver or the 80-something A40
    driver...
    
    Steve.
    

    I remember having a quick blast in a Volvo 340 (???) 1.7 jobbie. Great
    rear wheel drive fun, I must say, and as cars (ie. forget the driving
    style under discussion) I thought it was pretty good compared with what
    I'd imagined.
    
    As for Volvo drivers in general, I can't say as to really noticing a
    difference.
    
    But I did hear of a nasty head on crash between a Volvo and Porsche
    drive (Porsche driver being the arsehole, I should point out) where the
    Porsche driver and passenger were killed instantly, the volvo driver
    and passenger came out of it alive, although unfortunately the volvo's
    passenger, a young girl, was permanently brain damaged. Says a lot for
    the cars, I think.
    
    Dan

    re.-1
    
    
    	That didn't quite read properly, did it?! I meant I think Volvos are
    pretty good in my estimate.

    Oh. This was one of those little squary things, pretty much a brick on
    wheels, but I must say I do like the look of the new Volvos -
    particularly that T5 ...

    Volvo drivers ... AAARRGGHHH
    
    Driving home tonight, on the A33 towards the M4. A ****** Volvo turned
    right in front of me to access the garage. I dont think the driver even
    knew I was there until the skid of tyres. Unless of course he/she was
    just totally beligerent. (red 740 est)
    
    Sorry, Volvo drivers deserve the panning they get.
    
    Tony. }:^[]
    

I actually chose a 480 for my lease car three years back.

Worst car I have ever driven! It has a steering fault from new which I was 
told was a design fault, a gutless Renault 1700 engine, a crap automatic 
gearbox (ok that was my fault, I shouldn't have chosen it).

I felt anything but safe in the car and spent two years trying to avoid any 
kind of confrontation on the road, not that I go in for regular 
confrontations you understand ;*)

In my experience the worst, most inconsiderate, beligerent, downright rude 
drivers .. drive a 240.

Stuart

    Yesterday, I discovered, not far from my current lodgings, an
    organisation which appears to be devoted to the business of dismantling
    Volvos.
    
    Who says capitalism cannot have a social conscience? Perhaps I could
    encourage them to open a few hundred branches in the UK.
    
    They could offer a mobile service that would allow you to phone in and
    nominate a particular Volvo for dismantling. ;-)
    
    John O'Connor

I fully accept my personal experience may not be truly representative of the 
population as a whole, but it's all I've got to go on!

1. A neighbour across the road reversed his Volvo into my (parked) car

2. About 2 years later, the same neighbour reversed his Volvo into my (parked)
   car

3. A couple of months ago a lady Volvo driver reversed into the side of
   my wife's (stationary behind a bus) car

Experience is what shapes our opinions :-)


Mike

	And apparently Volvos are what shapes your cars...

	Dave

    My first 'incident' back in '82 was a Volvo estate rear ending me at a
    junction. No damage to the Volvo bumper (it just looked a bit cleaner
    than the rest of the car), and one bent bumper and crushed rear wing to
    my Austin 1300.
    
    My last incident was a Volvo 34X using my passing car to stop at a give 
    way instead of her brakes.
    
    In between the two, my car hasn't been in collision with any other
    vehicle (concrete posts, yes, steep grass verges, yes, sharp knives,
    yes, motorway slowing down type gravel, yes - but no other vehicles).
    
    Andy

    RE .27
    
    I drive a VOLVO 850, they're excellent quiet, smooth, gadget rich cars
    where you can put mountain bikes, ladders, 3m kitchen worktops inside! 
    
    After ordering I was asked by Hertz/carfleet what the flat cap and
    barbour option was:-)
    
    I can assure everyone that the 850 is a heavy car and not one to be hit
    by, and they can embue a sense of false security, especially in dirty
    motorway weather.
    
    So be careful out there.
    
    Regards
    
    Ken, whose Civic was reversed into by a 240.

        Well, after reading some more notes, it seems that Volvo 
        drivers are pretty unpopular road users, and yes, some are 
        downright ignorant! Perhaps, just perhaps, I am the only decent 
        Volvo driver on the road...?
        
        In response to some of the points raised, mine is a 'proper' 
        Volvo (740), and no, it's not a red estate! (dark blue saloon). 
        I've owned/driven 340s, 360s, 440s & 740s and basically, I've 
        been pleased with all of the ones I've owned. However, after 
        driving a 340 auto loan car, I have to say that I hated the auto 
        box - based I believe, on the Daf variomatic. The best has to be 
        my current 740.
        
        I think generally, the big Volvos are better, despite the 
        comments made by some of you - but have you ever driven one? The 
        older ones may have been a bit like tanks to drive, but the more 
        recent ones are so much better and a pleasure to drive, I've 
        heard nothing but praise for the new 850.
        
        I have to concede that some Volvo drivers are not good, and it 
        seems that I'm not a typical Volvo driver, but my note got some 
        good responses that made interesting reading - thanks! All I ask 
        is that you don't tar me with the same brush as all Volvo drivers 
        - I'm the one travelling from the Andover side of Basingstoke to 
        Decpark every day!
        
        J
        
        

	Why do all Volvo drivers stick their car's bumpers
	out into the road when turning out of a T-Junction?
	
	Dave

	ps yes, I know that not all Volvo drivers are lousy
	and not all XRNi drivers have fluffy dice, but you've
	gotta make generalizations some time.

        Re .36
        
        and why do all Fiesta drivers stop about half a mile before the 
        junction, and then strain to see if it's clear to move off?
        
        and why do Astra drivers pull out in front of me when I am only 2 
        yards away from their junction?
        
        and why do Cavalier drivers fail to realise that they CAN move 
        over to the outside lane to allow me to join the main 
        carriageway?
        
        there are so many unanswered questions, but yes you're right, you 
        have to generalise sometimes.....
        
        J

>>>     and why do all Fiesta drivers stop about half a mile before the 
>>>     junction, and then strain to see if it's clear to move off?


	Interestingly, I noticed, whilst at Marlborough on training last week,
that most junctions over there have the white line across the road about a car
length (of their cars) short of the junction.  Most times, stopping at the white
line meant that you couldn't see if the road was clear!

	Maybe said Fiesta drivers were all from the US of A?

				Malcolm.

    I think in the States the white line is the STOP line. You must (are
    supposed to) stop at this line, then proceed (cautiously) into the
    junction.
    
    Martin (who has been to Boston BTW)

OK, another victim! My only accident in over 15 years was being hit broadside 
by an elderly gentleman in an elderly 240. I was on a mini-roundabout, turning 
right on a clear road with little traffic and a birght and pleasant day.

I saw him coming the other way, moved to the centre lane, indicating right, started 
turning, then realsised he wasn't slowing or anything. He hit my tail broadside, 
"oh, didn't see you!" p.s. his wife in the passenger seat had a pooch on her lap!

Richard

    Well, then, I wonder if you have the Lexus marque over in Cars_UK land? 
    While Volvo drivers may seem unconcerned about what is going on around
    them, Lexus drivers seem to have settled the whole matter.  They own
    the road.  No worries, mate.  They own the road.  
    
    Lexus is an expensive sort of Toyota.
    
    grins,
    bob

re .41,

I had an encounter with a Lexus driver this morning, in fact, along
a narrow country lane, this git came hurtling around a blind bend at
around 60-70mph on the wrong side of the road.  He missed me, but I
would like to think that he collided with a JCB or something shortly
afterwards.

Chris.

Toyota?  Didn't they used to make Austin Sevens under licence?

				Malcolm. ;^)

PS. I'll enjoy reading this Conference when I return from holiday on Monday 24th
October - if it still exists!

>PS. I'll enjoy reading this Conference when I return from holiday on Monday 24th
>October - if it still exists!

Do you know something I don't?  :|

Chris$concerned.

    The view from a bike is even worse, V***o drivers are legendary in most
    bike magazines and after 10 years on two wheels I've got to the stage
    where I worry if there's a Volvo waiting at the junction ahead far more
    than any other car, and have been proved right on a number of
    occasions.
    
    My wife was at a road safety talk given by a police woman about a year
    ago and there was mention of what was called the Volvo driver syndrome !
    
    
    	Euan
    

    Volvo drivers are fine here in Vancouver Canada.   ...in my opinion.
    Much better than delivery vans and trucks, they are quite aggressive.
    
    .44
    >>  -< Lexus is an upstart trying to be a Jaguar/Rolls Royce/Mercedes!
                                              ^^^^^^
                                               ????
    
    Not likely, even Japan is importing a lots of them (also Daimler's)
    most of them are kept at their carport in the summer since Jaguar still
    means overheat.
    
    
    >>  Toyota?  Didn't they used to make Austin Sevens under licence?
    
    May be Nissan did.
    Jaguar?  Didn't they used to make sidecar and called SWALLOW and now
    under FORD management?
    
    Mitz
    

  And they (BMW) also used to make these funny little eggs with wheels
  under license from an Italian firm.  There wouldn't be any 850i's around
  today otherwise.
  
  Dave

    ... not to mention aeroplanes.
    
    Phil Gill.

The last to evenings have been nice weather wise.

On both occasions while riding my motorbike, an accident has nearly been caused
by people driving Volvo's. One of drivers failed to give way, and the car in front 
of me (and I) had to hit the brakes. The second incident involved this old
boy running a red light, just missing a minibus!

Now before all the Volvo drivers/supporters get up in arms about this, I'd just
like to say that in all the years I have been driving/riding bikes "the" Volvo
driver is the most lethal........not the car.


PROFILE Of MR/MRS LETHAL
 
CAR: VOLVO 240 or larger
AGE: 50 plus(and probably wearing a hat)

The hat wearing driver is significant, because these are usually the ones to 
look out for!

I am sure that NOT all Volvo drivers are bad, it's just a certain type that 
appear to be living in a world of their own on the road!

John  

A Vovo is a Volvo that has had the L driven out of it.

Dave 

    
    re -1:
    
    Seen here in Finland last summer:
    
    An elderly man (with a hat!) driving his old Volvo 240 DL and
    overtaking with a great risk other cars. Overtakes other cars
    highly risky, because of underpowered engine and wrong estimations.
    Volvo driver seemed not to notice that he was a real danger on
    four wheels.
    
    Then, two younger lads with a Carina II start to tease the man.
    They overtake the man, slow down, wait that he overtakes them, 
    overtake him again...etc.  
    
    This stupid thing ended, luckily with no accident, but with some
    extremely dangerous situations. I remember the vision of thick
    blue smoke coming from that old Volvo under hard acceleration and
    the drivers neck shining red when he was driving against coming
    traffic.
    
    A lucky Volvo driver.
    
    
    
    Hannu
    
    
    
      
    
    
    

    Nah, a Vovo driver is a volvo driver who needs an L plate. 

A VOVO driver is the same as a VOLVO driver, but try telling that to my 4 year
old who I found out last night, cannot pronounce VOLVO yet....what a blessing!

The Finnish noter said it all...watch out for those hat wearing VOVO/VOLVO 
drivers!

    Thank God I don't wear a hat, and I'm definately nowhere near 50 years
    of age - does that exempt me ?  I really am considerate to all you
    other road users, even when I'm cut up, driven out in front of, etc.
    etc. Some people see a woman driving a Volvo, and seem to think I must
    be slow/dithery/indecisive etc. IT'S NOT TRUE!

    Err yes.
    
    Andrew

    I have to second the last comments - no where near 50, don't wear a
    hat... (850 + 1800 S)
    
    Paul

    re .58
    
    Well, Laurie, would you like to expand on your comment? 
    BTW, what car do YOU drive.....?
    
    J

    Well, it's a sort of private joke centred around post early-1960's
    education, such as Andrew and I enjoyed. There is a very unsubtle
    clue to the "joke" in my note.
    
    What do I drive? I have a Peugeot 405 GLDT estate for a family
    runabout, due for replacement next summer by a Peugeot 806 TD. I also
    have a somewhat lively Healey Frogeye (see note 1262) for summer fun
    (when I can afford the insurance), and our second car is a 100K miles
    old '87 1.6GL Escort Estate, soon to be retired.
    
    I've never owned a Volvo, and I don't intend to.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    Re 'unsubtle clue'
    
    Very subtle Laurie :-)
    
    Royston

    I can vouch for that, but don't worry Ginger, we wrinklies get this way
    sometimes. Our mind just wanders off to some other halcyon day...
    
    Andrew

    re .65
    
    Something like the Renault Espace/Toyota Previa.
    
    Andrew

The joint MPV project between Pug/Citroen/fiat/lancia. It loks similar to 
and is about the same size as the espace.

The citroen's called evasion in France but may be renamed when released 
over here. The Lancia WONT be sold over here.

They all look the same except for front and rear light jobbies which 'brand'
the particular models.

Richard

	In August on the Champs-Elysee I saw a Peugot garage
	with the 806 in it and we all went to have a look (4 adults
	and 5 children).  I rather liked it.   However, the diesel
	is not out yet and it will be 1996 before the UK gets one.
	I also believe that the insides are different between 	
	Citroen, Peugot and Fiat.  The price in French francs 
	was interesting as it look around 25% cheaper than the price
	will be in the UK...

	Dave

    Yeah, all of the preceding few are correct.
    
    The 806 has been released here in Belgium and I had a look a couple of
    weekends ago. It's longer internally than any of the others I've seen,
    and with all three rows of seats installed, still has enough room for
    some luggage behind. It's due for UK release next spring or early
    summer.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    7 replies and not one volvo!
    
    	John O'Connor

>>>    I can vouch for that, but don't worry Ginger, we wrinklies get this way
						  ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>    sometimes. Our mind just wanders off to some other halcyon day...
    
>>>    Andrew


	What do you mean, "we wrinklies," Andrew?  I thought that you were a
mere child yet!

	Mind you, my 15 year old grandson calls his parents wrinklies, says we
are grave fodder!  Damn cheek I say!


				Malcolm.

PS. No Chris, I don't know anything you don't, just wouldn't be surprised if the
non-Work related conferences did disappear!

    I thought I'd relate this story to get it off my chest.

    Last night I was driving on a very quiet stretch of the M27 when an estate
    car overtook me in lane 3 (I was doing about 70 in lane 1). There was
    NO traffic in lane 2.

    A saloon car (didn't notice what it was) then overtook me in lane 2
    and moved into lane 3 to overtake the estate car. He then moved back to
    lane 2 to undertake the estate who remained in lane 3. He must of
    then thought the better of it and moved back to lane 3 and flashed the
    estate car who then moved over. The saloon then overtook in lane 3
    and then back to lane 2 and lane 1 as there was no traffic ahead.
    The Estate (for some reason) remained in lane 2 and as the saloon
    passed in front it flashed the car back.

    Why the estate was in lane 3 in the first place and why it didn't move
    over to let the car past in the first place is beyond me. But the need to
    flash the driver back was totally uncalled for.

    You have probably guessed by now, the estate was a -
    
    VOLVO!

    Doesn't that just wind you up.
    
    >]-( Grrrrrrrrrr

For Volvo also read - BMW, Merc, Carlton, Audi, Range Rover etc etc

I don't think it marque specific...

    Sorry if I was being 'Marquist'
    
    Royston :-)

	It's the old, old problem on British motorways - no
	lane discipline at all.

	Dave

    I've frequently seen people pull over from lane 3 to allow a car to
    pass (almost always after being flashed) only to return again
    immediately afterwards. I'm convinced it's "manhood" type thing whereby
    people feel somehow inadequate if they're not out there with the big
    boys. The same sort of mentality that uses those bloody front "driving"
    (aka useless for anything but dazzling other drivers) lights.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    I don't know whether they're driving or fog lights on the front of
    mine. Can someone explain what they fit to Ford Sierra XR4's / Ghias /
    Cosworths.... you know, the ones in the bumper along with the
    indicators. Are they FOG or DRIVING?
    
    They are handy, but at the moment they're on a different switch and
    it's annoying to have to reach over the dash to turn 'em on and off, so
    I don't bother, but my headlights are so bloody awful I need 'em. I
    think I'll wire them up to the main beams some time....
    
    :-)

    If the lights come on automatically with full beam then they are
    driving lights.
    
    If you have to switch them on and the symbol on the switch is similar
    to the rear fog light switch (but the beam on the symbol is pointing
    downwards), then they are front fog lamps and should only be used
    under the same rules as rear fog lights (when visibility is down to
    less than 100 yards(or metres)).
    
    Royston

    Aaah. Problem.... I don't have access to a Sierra so I couldn't say.
    Anyone help me?

    
    If they're in the bumper, I believe they HAVE to be fog lights.
    
    It's all to do with minimum height of the lights above the road.
    
    Any additional lights below the headlights must be fog lights as 
    I recall.
    
    Mark

    Well it depends on what you define as a bumper ;-) !!
    
    Anyway, I'd prefer an answer off some corporate-sierra-boring-mobile...
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

	It is illegal to use ANY front lamp with its centre less than 24" from
the ground, call them driving or fog lamps!

	Lamps with their centre less than 24" from the ground may ONLY be used
in falling snow or fog.  The definition of fog given by Royston in .79 sounds
reasonable, but I don't know of any legal definition of fog.

	I haven't yet found a legal definition governing the use of rear fog
lights, but I must admit to nasty feelings towards those who persist in using
them as normal rear lights - Ford drivers seem to me to be the major culprits
for this.

	Whilst I'm having a moan, on frosty mornings like today, why oh why
don't people use their heated rear window?  I can understand them not wanting to
stand outside in the cold, scraping the ice off the window, but to not flick a
switch beats me!  Saw several this morning.

				Malcolm.

    I would if I had one :-]

Re: .72 - alternative interpretation:

    Saloon car flashes estate car in lane 3 meaning 
      "I say old boy, do you mind pulling over to let me through?"
    Estate car moves over to let saloon car past and flashes back meaning
      "Sorry about that, I was falling asleep."
    Both cars continue peacefully into the night...

Chris

    Over here in Brussels, these bloody front lights are so "popular" that
    people seem to have taken to driving on sidelights, and these
    driving/fog lights only. Mad...
    
    Maybe I'm just getting old, but I find my eyes are very sensitive to
    all these bright lights, these days.
    
    Laurie.

    
  >>  Over here in Brussels, these bloody front lights are so "popular" that
  >>  people seem to have taken to driving on sidelights, and these
  >>  driving/fog lights only. Mad...
    
    thats exaclty what you should do *if* it's foggy, there's no point in
    switching on your front fog lights if you keep the headlights on -
    they're lower down so that they reach further under the fog, without
    reflecting straight back at you.
    
    G

    Clarification:
    
    They do it *all* the time. Except, of course, in the misty dull
    mornings, or when it's raining. Except of course on a motorway, when at
    the slightest excuse, on go the fog-lights, front and rear.
    
    
    Laurie.

Ref -1

Like it - good wind up! 8^)

BTW Passed Cosworth driver this morning - bright blue sky, perfect 
visability - fog lights on!

Dork...

    The Highway code (remember that?) says you should use fog lights
    if visibility is reduced to 100 metres or less.
    
    Huw.

    I fancy installing a generator in my car, capable of deliver a good
    5000 watts continuous current, and then installing lots of flip-up 500
    watt halogen lamps on the rear of my car. Then, when I find one of
    these annoying bar stewards who is intent on putting his fog lamp on
    whenever the road gets damp/there is a *slight* mist about/etc I'll
    wait until I'm in front of him, then hit the switch and watch him veer
    off the road, blinded, into a brick wall whereby he will suffer sever
    injuries.
    
    :-~
    
    Hmmm.... wonder what my chances are in court! Maybe I could pull it
    off, like that guy did who shot a young vandal for breaking into his
    shed - a newspaper paid his fine! Coo-el!

    It could be that these people that run their fog lights on clear days
    are emulating the North American practice of day-time running lights. 
    I know that when I drive my '86 Jag that does not have the running
    lights, I run with either headlights or the fog lights lit.....it just
    makes it that much more likely that some bonehead will see me and not
    pull in front of me.  It should be stated, however, that I do make sure
    that *all* the lights that can be adjusted *are* aimed properly.
    
    Brian
    

    Re. .93
    
    I knew of a nutter back in my collage days who had a rear facing 12V laser 
    mounted below his driving mirror for just such occasions.
    
    	Rik

	Re.92
>>>    The Highway code (remember that?) says you should use fog lights
>>>    if visibility is reduced to 100 metres or less.
    
>>>    Huw.

	You have to remember that the Highway code is NOT law.  Only the
Motorway section(s) is based on the law - usually ignored by those ignoramous'
who drive in either of the overtaking lanes when there is no traffic in the
driving lane - like "Royston's" Volvo driver.

				Malcolm.

	Old chestnut, it may not be law, but if you ignore
	it then you can be done for whatever the modern equivalent
	of "without due care and attention" is.

	Dave

    >>5000 watts continuous current, and then installing lots of flip-up 500
    
    The watt is not a measurement of current, but I know what you mean.
    
    Phil Gill.

    Offered with no comment(!), this was pulled from Reuters news (see
    LOBLO::EF94, topic 5)
    
    Cheers, Laurie.
    
    
    
    RTw  12/21 1250  Man goes berserk in car saleroom, many Volvos hurt

    LONDON, Dec 21 (Reuter) - A British man was ordered by a judge to seek
    psychiatric help on Wednesday after he drove a Volvo estate through the
    plate glass window of a showroom, smashing eight other cars and
    injuring two people.

    Unemployed Shaun O'Hare, 27, lost his temper when he was told "no
    money, no car" as he tried to buy a 20,000 pound ($31,201) Volvo 850
    Estate in Lancashire, northern England, in April.

    He started the car's engine and drove the Volvo at a salesman, pinning
    him and another customer against a pillar.

    O'Hare then slammed the car into reverse and hit two other cars in the
    showroom, before careering through a plate glass window.

    The Volvo shot down a grass embankment and crashed into five more
    vehicles parked on the forecourt. O'Hare ran off but was caught by the
    manager of the showroom.

    Damage was estimated at 96,000 pounds ($149,700).

    O'Hare pleaded guilty to damaging property while being reckless to
    whether life was endangered.

    He was placed on probation for three years on condition he attends a
    psychiatric hospital as an out-patient. The judge at Manchester Crown
    Court labelled his behaviour "grotesque and bizarre."

    REUTER

        I never took much notice of this topic before, but last night
        I had to take drastic action to avoid colliding with a Volvo -
        not once but twice. They both saw me, but acted like I wasn't
        there!  <seeth>.

        So I was all the more appreciative of Chris Evans' joke this
        morning on Radio 1:

        "I'm feeling very rebellious. I'm going to hire a Volvo for
        the weekend and drive it a around really well."

        Ian.

It may be me but that of the cars that pull out in front of me/totally ignore
oncoming traffic around me seem to drive Volvo's.  This phenomena also
seems to get worse on Sunday mornings around churches.

Of course my brother drives a Volvo as well...nuff said!!

Hearing the squeel of several sets of tyres at M4/J11 last night I looked around
expecting to see the usual Volvo cutting up the rest of the traffic only to see
a 5-series BMW _estate_ complete with driver on his carphone. I didn't know BMW
made a 5-series estate but I think they should be stopped before this 'virus'
spreads any further.

Dave.

It's interesting to note that the drivers of `luxury' estate cars
are invariably terrible drivers.  The worst of the lot, in my
experience, are Mercedes estates, usually with a couple of dogs
in the back, being driven by a middle aged middle class woman, who
obviously seems to consider other road users as common proles who
should bow in deference and just get out of the way...

Chris.

    Chris,
    
    Would you lump the Omega Estate in that category, 'cos there's quite an
    overlap with company cars.
    
    Andrew
    
    PS Speaking as one of these I'd agree that all other road users are
    proles who should get out of the way.

    
    > PS Speaking as one of these I'd agree that all other road users are
    > proles who should get out of the way.
    
    Been on the German 'Drive and Intimidate' course? :^)
    
    Mark

    It's an odd thing a Volvo. I borrowed my parents 240 estate to go
    upto Ikea to do some shopping but once installed behind the wheel it
    changed the way I drove. I came over with this 'tuff luck matey, I'm in
    a Volvo'. Cutting people up and driving badly suddenly seemed less of 
    a crime.
    
    It surprised me alot. Driving a Volvo really did change (momentarily)
    my driviing attitutde.
    
    paul

    
    Classic Volvo driver situation today - the parentage of all bad Volvo
    drivers was out and about in Fareham multi-storey car-park today.
    
    First of all he tries to take his sills away (and kill his dog which
    was bouncing off the roof of his 740 estate) whilst trying to drive
    over a bit of the car-park that's meant to say "you can't driver over
    here, you have to drive around again"; then whilst I've got four cars
    behind me who aren't going to move he proceeds to reverse into me.  He
    sits there for a full 30 seconds-ish before driving off.  When I
    finally apprehend him he was totally unaware of what he'd done (mid
    60's-ish I'd say), tried to apologise profusely...
    
    I felt even more angry when I came back an hour a bit later and found 
    his dog still in the back of the car in 25 degree heat (it was out of 
    the sun at least).
    
    I mean, is this a case for an automatic re-test at 65 or what?
    
    Chris.

Driving over a barrier is stupid.

Reversing into your car is careless.

Cooking a dog in the back of the car is unforgivable. 

I hope you called the RSPCA, called the police or broke a window.

Phil.

 >>>   I mean, is this a case for an automatic re-test at 65 or what?
    
    No, definitely not.
    
    	just involuntary euthenasia....
    
    G.

    	It had to happen!
    
    	Saturday afternoon in Harman's Water Road in Bracknell: two lanes
    to a mini-roundabout, me in left one indicating to turn left, large
    Volvo estate with woman driver aged in late 30's,herself not
    indicating at all, move off when clear, she turns left into me!!!!!
    Fortunately with me managing to avoid contact!
    
    				Malcolm.

Happens a lot around here (not just by Volvo drivers)  People often attempt to 
`jump the queue' at roundabouts and other junctions by using the wrong 
approach lane, then compound the situation by failing to indicate (presumably 
to conceal their evil intent... or perhaps they're just crap)

Chris.

    Re 2313.114
    
    That happened to me alot when I had my metro, but since driving a larger 
    car there seems to be a little bit more respect for my presence on
    roundabouts in Basingstoke.
    
    Chris  

    	Re.14
    
    	There were only the two of us at this mini roundabout!
    
    	Re.15
    
    	I drive a Xantia, which isn't that small to be ignored, even by
    Volvo drivers!
    				Malcolm.

    This happens quite a lot around Reading, people dont seem to realise
    that you can go 'over the top' of a mini roundabout.  
    
    mikef  

    About 8 years ago I went over the top of a mini roundabout and was
    stopped by the police.  I was told in no uncertain terms that they are to
    be negotiated as if they are a full sized roundabout.

    re-1...but there are lots of Mini roundabouts where you *have* to go
    over the top, there isn't room for two cars to follow the curve round,
    if you see what I mean.  Theres a good example on the A4 coming into
    Reading, just at the Reading end of Prospect Park.  Two lanes are fed
    over the mini roundabout, and the right hand lane has no choice but to
    go over the top.  
    
    Mikef

    its probably not so Ok if its a single lane and no other traffic about
    ho, theres no need then.
    
    sorry - hit ctrl-Z too soon.
    
    Mikef
    
      

    
    	Surely, the main purpose of the Mini-Roundabout is simply to
    allocate priority, as on a "normal" roundabout?  If the vehicle on your
    right crosses the white line across his road first, then he/she/it has
    priority over you - n'est pas?
    
    				Malcolm.

    re .121
    
    What exactly are the rules for giving way at roundabouts? The 
    latest (? 1993) copy of the Highway Code just says:
    
    "On reaching the roundabout, give way to traffic on your right unless
    road markings indicate otherwise."
    
    It doesn't say the traffic already has to be on the roundabout for you
    to give way to it. Where I live, people get very confused at
    mini-roundabouts.
    
    Chris.

    How can give way to your right be confusing ?
    
    If there is noone on the roundabout theres normally nothing to give
    way to.
    
    On a mini roundabout if there is someone already at the junction
    to your right they have right of way.
    
    If cars reach all the junctions on a mini roundabout at the same 
    time and all stop then its the most assertive driver that gets right of
    way ! 
    
    Royston

    What about the cars that approaches the roundabout from the same
    entrance road. You are in the left lane, he is in the right lane.
    Do you have to give way to him, even if he wants to turn left and you
    want to go straight on ?? (He is on your right).
    
    Andrew

    
    	 Judging by some of the questions in this note we seem to have a
    few "secret" volvo drivers in here %*)
    
    - MARK -
    

    Re .125
    
    Andrew I assume you are having a laugh.
    
    Royston

    re .127
    
    Not really. There is one roundabout where people routinely go into the
    right hand lane to turn left (onto a dual carriageway). The highway
    code does say 'On reaching the roundabout, give way to traffic on your
    right unless road marking indicate otherwise'. Judging from much of the
    recent remarks in this conference I would think that would be
    sufficient for some people to feel fully justified in turning left from
    the right hand lane and expecting people in the left hand lane to give
    way to them (does anyone think this is the intention of those words ? I
    think they refer to traffic which entered the roundabout from a
    different road).
    
    One of the problems seems to be in ambiguous set of rules, which are
    treated by many people as 'optional' when they are inconvenient to
    them. Together with an ever increasing amount of agressive driving,
    with people asserting their 'rights', it's not really surprising that
    road rage is happening.
    
    Andrew

    The highway code is quite clear & unambiguous.
    
    If you intend to turn left at a roundabout, take the left lane.
    If you intend to turn right, take the right lane.
    Quite difficult to misinterpret that.
    
    :-)The process of turning left from the right lane is validated like
    this :
    (extract from Volvo Highway code)
    
    If the left lane is full, use the right lane, go round the roundabout &
    shortcut the turn left queue, they have to give way to you now. If
    encountering a miniroundabout where there is insufficient turning circle
    for this manouvre, it acceptable to use the right lane to turn left, as
    you are acting within the spirit of turning right to go left & its not
    your fault your estate car is too long for the manouvre.
    
    There, doesnt that now make perfect sense ? :-)
    
    
    Tony.

    
    	One of the problems today, is that everyone has "rights" and no-one
    will accept any "responsibilties."
    
    	IMHO we don't have any rights, only responsibilities.
    
    				Malcolm.

    
    	If you know Reading...  Come off the IDR and go up towards Central
    	Pool.  Two lane road, two lane entry to the roundabout.  One exit
    	is left, one right.  So, logically, those turning left get in the 
    	left lane and those turning right in the right.
    	NOT!  Everyone turning left gets in the right lane because they
    	know that just round the corner they'll have to queue in the right
    	hand lane to turn right at the lights.
    	So, you wanna turn right at the roundabout?  Well, you can just wait
    	for everyone to queue for the lights in your lane and then turn left.
    	There are words for these people, but they're not for public
    	places.
    
    	Pete
                                         

    FWIW (and its not much),  big Volvos actually have better turning
    circles than many smaller front wheel drive cars.
    
    I'll put my hat back on now.
    
    Jc
    

    
    Just a thought.... but if you want to take the first exit left off a
    roundabout and the left hand lane is backing up (assuming the
    roundabout has at least two entry routes, one or more exits don't
    matter) then get in the most r/h lane and GO ALL THE WAY ROUND THE
    ISLAND !!!  This then means you have priority, as you are coming from
    the right to the traffic you have just passed, wanting to turn left as
    you went down the r/h lane to turn left in the first place......
    
    Of coarse, if you come across a mini roundabout, this may cause a
    problem but not to estate volvo drivers as they have a better turning
    circle than mere motal cars.  Mind you the labrador in the back will
    think he is on an Alton Towers ride as he/she rebounds around the back
    of the compartment but the driver will never notice as they think the
    mirror is for decoration only.....
    
    All IMO of coarse %*)))
    
    - MARK -
    

    
    	I think you got that in one, Mark, with your last paragraph.  I
    like the mirror bit - it just about sums up the situation!
    
    	It was a double mini-roundabout, just into Harman's Water Road at
    the Sports Centre end in Bracknell - if you know it.  Said Volvo wanted
    to turn right at the second mini-roundabout!  There was no other
    traffic but the two of us .....
    
    				Malcolm

    If it's a double mini-roundabout, then isn't turning first left then
    right considered to be going straight on?  In which case he is allowed
    to use the right hand lane.  Though this does not include chopping
    across the front of you in the process though, of course.
    
    Chris
    

    
    	Well, I could be wrong (nothing unusual in that), but I thought
    that the whole idea of having two (mini) roundabouts, is that you have
    TWO (mini) roundabouts - if you see what I mean.  Otherwise one would
    suffice.
    
    	This particular junction used to be a straight forward "T" so may
    be Volvo drivers simply don't have acknowledge the change, as it is
    now a left and a right turn as you say.
    
    				Malcolm.

    I was going  thru cars_uk waiting for the volvo drivers note to come
    up, to add a note about roundabouts and its nearly al been done...
                                                         
    One more to add (six different volvos in four days!!):
    
    Volvo driver in outside  lane, indicating right as approaching
    roundabout, drives straight on. Two of these 'drivers' indicated left
    as soon as they were on the roundabout just to clarify their position
    
    In four of these incidents there was only one exit lane
    
    		Jon.

    
    	No!  No!  No!
    
    	Indicating "right" on a Volvo means only that the indicator lever
    has been "down" for some time - maybe with something hanging on it
    holding it down.  You read too much significance into the Volvo drivers
    use of indicators.
    
    	Surely you remember the Mini and old ladies pulling out the Choke
    to hang their handbag on it?  It is the same syndrome.
    
    				Malcolm.

    Isn't it the case that you are not supposed to infer anything from
    another driver's use of indicators? Defensive driving and all that.
    
    cheers,
    
    Tony I
    

>    Isn't it the case that you are not supposed to infer anything from
>    another driver's use of indicators? Defensive driving and all that.
    
it's sad that some other drivers are so inconsiderate/crap/whatever that 
`defensive driving' must become the norm, IMO.

Chris.

    
    volvo in fast lane of M6 this morning doing 60ish, slows down for
    corners to 50ish and driving so close to the left of the lane that he
    looked like he was continually going to pull over to the centre lane...
    
    No chance !! even though he could have pulled in several times he
    continued on his way..... for 2/3 miles before slipping into the middle
    lane.  
    
    Hmmmmmmm
    
    Anyway, arn't volvo indicators there to confuse the driver ??? and give
    them a 50/50 chance of switching on the windscreen wipers at the first
    attempt, or instaed of flashing you they go to wash/wipe or visa
    versa at roundabouts for indicating ???  Who knows the secrets of the
    volvo drivers mind ?? certainly not the driver !?!?  %*)  who seems to
    switch to a vacant blinkered look as soon as the door is closed....
    
    Just a thought  %*))  incase I offend the secret volvo drivers of this
    conf..
    
    - MARK -
    

    
    	I hate to admit it, but I know a Volvo driver .... AND .... he's a
    car scheme driver.
    
    				Malcolm.

    It would be a brave/foolish Volvo driver who owned up in this string!
    
    
    		Stretch.

    >brave/foolish
    
    Take your pick.
    
    I used to have a 360GLT 10 years ago. Great car. Never
    thought at the time there was such a stigma attached to driving a
    Volvo !
    
    Royston

    Royston,
    
    You were not driving a Volvo 360 10 years ago that pulled out in front
    of me on my motorbike were you?  
    
    
    Stretch (who does not forget those sort of things)

    Definately not. I am a motorcyclist myself and am _very_ conscious
    of folks on two wheels.
    
    Royston

>    Definately not. I am a motorcyclist myself and am _very_ conscious
>    of folks on two wheels.
    
you mean, like me when I'm taking a corner too fast?

Chris.

    
    2 yes TWO volvo 850 estates at the BBP today....  oh dear  %*)
    
    -MARK -

    >>2 yes TWO volvo 850 estates at the BBP today....  oh dear  %*)
    
    Careful, they may start breeding!
    
    
      			Stretch.

    <<< Note 2313.144 by CHEFS::CROSSA "May your chickens grow lips!!!" >>>
                -< Are you going to "out" him/her, Malcolm? >-
                                     ^^^
    	Good lord no, he happens to be friend - I didn't admit that,
    honest!!
    			Malcolm. 

    OK - I'll own up...
    
    I did have a 740 estate on the scheme the car before this one.  It was
    good value at the time when I needed a large estate car.  Also had more
    wellie than some people expected when they tried to go right from the
    left hand lane when I was already in the right hand lane (so I wanted
    to turn left - what was wrong with that :-)
    
    Jc
    
    

    
    Oh well, here goes...
    
    1975 to 1980 - 1969 Volvo 142 (got rid of at 185,000 miles)
    1980 to 1989 - 1974 Volvo 144 (died of rust. Not a good vintage)
    1989 to 1994 - 1982 Volvo 240 (written off by a Celica driver)
    
    Also had a company 340 from 1985 to 1987.
    
    Guess that makes me a Volvo driver! Only trouble is I havn't got one
    now. Mind you they don't make them like they used to.
    
    Currently we have a Fiesta and a company Frontera (recent acquisition).
    It is utterly amazing the difference in other driver's attitudes when I
    am driving one over the other. I would not have believed it. I think
    driver attitude towards other cars is an under researched area and the
    'Volvo Driver' syndrome is probably an example.
    
    I don't believe Volvo drivers are any worse than other big car (note
    *big car*) drivers. I just think Volvo built up an attitude problem by
    the following three strategies...
    
    1) Promoting themselves, rather smugly, as 'safe'. Implies the drivers
    are smug. This started in the early 70s.
    
    2) Fitting ridiculous bumpers in 1974 which made the safety message
    stand out even more. Mind you, they worked. I know, I was that man!.
    
    3) Fitting so-called 'running lights'. Once again, rubbing people's
    faces in the safety message. Mind you, they are a great idea. Can't see
    anything wrong whatsoever. Just adds to the smugness 'image' though.
    
    Richard

There are definitely differing attitudes by some drivers to the sort of car 
someone is driving.  I remember that thing on the telly a while back looking 
into drivers' attitudes, and that sales rep going on about pecking orders, and 
that a Cavalier L had no right to be in front of his GL, but if he saw an SRi 
coming up behind he would let it past.  I thought at the time that this was 
rubbish, but I've noticed that it does ring true; I tend not to hang about 
when I'm driving, and usually overtake all and sundry (let us not get 
sidetracked; I'll state now that I generally adhere to speed limits, and don't 
overtake in places where I don't have a clear view); when I do this in my 
flash M reg. Calibra, I generally don't get any hassle (with the exception of 
the occasional A reg XR3, who might take it as an invitation to race; I let 
them go), but, when overtaking in my Mum's old 1.1 Polo, some other drivers 
did not like this at all, many would speed up as I was going past, drive right 
on the bumper once I'd overtaken, flash their lights, gesticulate, etc, etc.  
Unreal.

Chris.

    
    I have now had a 240 estate for about 4 months.I don't have a flat cap
    or a labrador. It is the family car (I have a calibra SE4 for work!!).
    
    We got it to replace a citroen AX as we now have a third child and
    three car seats dont fit in the back of an AX.
    
    I wanted something big, old and cheap. It is 1984 with almost 150,000
    miles on the clock(speedo was broken) and I think it's just fantastic!
    
    The mechanic's are simple enough that even I can mantain it, it's
    incredibly easy to drive and with a tiny turning circle it easy to
    park.
    
    top speed 80ish , acceleration - not bad for its age etc.
    
    Now the surprise:-  I am in our local car club (Highland Car Club) and
    have been competing in the novice road rallies this season. The first
    three rounds were completed in the AX with reasonable success, then we
    sold the AX. 
    	The last two rounds were done IN THE VOLVO!!  :-)
    
    It was great, some very strange looks from people in rs2000's, 205's
    etc but on single track roads it handles really well!!
    
    The last round was 2 weeks ago and I was placed third which gave me
    enough points to win this season's novice championship.
    
    Who say's VOLVO's are boring??
    
    
    	Adrian Bruce

    3rd in a 240?  I guess these were 12 car events with a 25% entry,
    right?
    
    (no reflection on your driving ability intended!)
    
    Chris

    
    I think there were 14 entries and we were 6th or 7th overall.
    
    It was good crack and we surprised a few people.
    
    Its so long that it feel weird handbraking round a hairpin!!
    
    
    adrian :-)