Conference terri::cars_uk

    Sunbeam Tiger..

    Was the 130TC Strada the one made by Abarth(sp?) Had a go in one of
    them once. Brm Brm, as they say.
    
    Andy

Or the more recent Maestro & Montego Turbo.

I gather that later versions were good versions
of boring cars.

My dad had a Hillman Hunter GLS ages ago, which I 
thought was pretty good.

Mark.

    
    
    I figured that cars like the Lotus Sunbeam and the Strada versions of
    the Fiats' would have massive insurance premiums?
    
    As for the Hillman Hunter GLS, I saw one being raced as a hot rod at
    the week-end and I can't say I was impressed.  
    
    The 2.0i MG Maestro and Turbo versions probably cost alot and I think
    that the only version of the Maestro worth looking at is the Trubo one,
    because of the different bumpers and spoiler.  All the others need a 90
    year old grandma behind the wheel IMHO.
    
    There must be a few undiscovered potential road monsters out there that are
    massively understated.....
    
    Cheers,
    
    	MattB

    
    Hello Matt.
    
    I missed the point about low insurance on your original note.
    
    For big performance at a lowish price with cheap insurance you can't
    beat a classic car. Whether or not you could live with driving an 
    old car everyday is another matter!
    
    Mark
    
    PS I doubt there's much difference between a 130 and 105 Abarth, but 
    who knows?

>>    For big performance at a lowish price with cheap insurance you can't
>>    beat a classic car. Whether or not you could live with driving an 
>>    old car everyday is another matter!
    
    But then again, the 'big' performance will probably be daunted by
    newer vehicles.  IMO, an older car can be more fun, and cheaper too,
    but might not save much on the insurance.  Look at it the other way,
    some of what you save on buying an older car can be used for insurance.
    
    Consider also that higher performance isn't so important if the car
    can deliver 'fun' at a lower speed.  You may count Brit sportsters
    (MGB, Spitfire etc) in this category.  My choice would be something
    Italian (but that's my preference), if you can find a fair one
    that hasn't suffered badly with rust.
    
    J.R.

    **********************
    Sorry about me being thick but I noticed
    that the editor I originally wrote the .0 note in
    had chopped off loads of the note.  So I extracted it,
    deleted the note and then found I couldn't put the
    corrected version back in as 1768.0 so here it is.
    
    MattB
    **********************
    
I'm not asking this question because I want to get another car, I'm just
interested to see what everyone can come up with.

You know manufacturers tend to produce lots of mediocre cars and then they 
make some faster, better performing versions.

ie.  Escort 1.1 --> Escort 1.6 --> XR3i --> RS Turbo

Well I'm trying to get a list of the top of the range oldist boring cars,
so far I've only found two:-

	The Sunbeam Ti
and    	the 105 Strada TC

Both these cars are group 4/5 insurance, have over 100bhp and are totally 
standard.

Can anyone else think of similar smallish, under-rated, and good-performing 
cars?

Cheers,

	MattB

    
>    The 2.0i MG Maestro and Turbo versions probably cost alot and I think
>    that the only version of the Maestro worth looking at is the Trubo one,
>    because of the different bumpers and spoiler.  All the others need a 90
>    year old grandma behind the wheel IMHO.
 
	Having had a 2.0 EFI MG Maestro that was not a turbo, I can honeslty 
	say it went like s*** of a shovel, and, being a square car with a wheel
	at each corner, it stuck to the road better than chewing gum.
	The only reason I can see that it didn't out-sell all hot hatches, was
	that it didn't look like a boy-racer car, and as I'm not a boy, I was
	rather pleased with this feature.

	The price wasn't bad, it was 12,500 quid new (D reg), however I bought 
	a 3-month old ex-demo with 5,000 on the clock for 9,000 quid including 
	3-year warranty (which I didn't need to take up). 

	It was group 5 insurance, and didn't cost a great deal as I'm over 30, 
	(but not 90) female (but not a grandmother), and with full no claims.
	
	Heather

    Personally I'd like an Audi 80 with the new V6.
    But then, it can't take all four dogs nor will my monthly income be up
    to the influx of speeding tickets collected by my wife having fun.
                                                   
    I second the 'classic' suggestion on the base of the far cheaper
    initial costs.
    Currently I am saving for either one of the following options:
    - Big block Corvette convertible
    - Spitfire with an 'improved' Rover V8 fitted
    - X1/9 with lots and lots of Abarth engine goodies
    - MGC V8
    - TR8 convertible conv.
    With 3 and 4 be the most likely and 4 definitely the most
    practical. I can allways fit a BIG sunroof anyway.
    
    Peter
    

    re -1
    
    MGB's don't have to cost a fortune. With some friends we are fully
    restoring an MGB GT as best as possible ( previous owner didn't have
    much clue about anything) , it's a labour of love more than cost , but
    things like front wings don't come in cheap ( genuine or other wise ) .
    
    Garry
    
    

Probably rather rare now, but a BMW 2002Tii would fit the original category.
Top end was 120+, 0 - 60 was around 7 seconds (all this in 1972, it was then the
fastest production saloon car in the 2 ltr class).

If it wasn't for the insurance, I'd suggest a Quattro, bought mine for 7K pounds!

More modern, what about a Lancia Delta Turbo? Or does the insurance 'know' about
that?

N.

    
    
    The reason I was a little worried about the insurance factor is because
    I am 20 years old and the insurance peeps don't see me as a good bet.
    
    Also, I pay about 200 quid a year for insurance on a 1986 C Reg Mini
    City E with a few years no claims.  I have a friend who deals with the
    same insurance company, has one year more no-claims and owns a Sunbeam
    Ti, he pays about 160 quid.  Something odd here I thought!
    
    MattB 

    >City E with a few years no claims.  I have a friend who deals with the
    >same insurance company, has one year more no-claims and owns a Sunbeam
    >Ti, he pays about 160 quid.  Something odd here I thought!
    
    I suppose I am being a bit naive but have you shopped around?
    
    Dave
    

    Hmmm,
    
    let me see - you are looking for something not too big, not too
    expensive, relativeley cheap to insure, with some "oomph".
    
    The advice from here has been to get something Italian, or a
    classic British sports car.
    
    Yes!  I've got it!
    
    You need that classic British powerful car, with an Italian name,
    and what could that be but...
    
    The Morris Ital 2.0 HLS Auto!
    
    Now, before you laugh - just consider -
    
    It has the two litre "O" series engine, which is light and powerful;
    with an auto box, so 0-60 and 30-70 are fast, it is a four door saloon,
    reasonably comfortable, with anti-roll bars at the front, so it's
    got pretty good handling. Oh, and it will be cheap to buy, insure and
    run. (They only did the 2 litre with an auto in the Ital/Marina.)
    
    Of course, the downside is it's a Morris Ital.
    
    Peter.
    

    
    RE -.2  About insurance, I'm insured though Endsleigh, because they are
    supposed to give big student discounts.  And if you compare the quote I
    got from the AA and what I pay I believe that the difference was about
    100 quid.  Still doesn't explain why I pay more for a car with 40 bhp
    than a car was 110bhp?
    
    RE: -.1 I Morris Ital urgrggrgg, no thanks!
    
    I like the idea about the Meastro though, they are supposed to be
    fairly quick, but they probably cost loads, and with the 2.0 litre
    engine insurance would be loads.
    
    I had a quote once for an old SAAB 900 2.0i and it came to over 600 quid,
    third party, fire and theft.
    
    Lancia Delta looks good thought, and it's supposed to have a very
    robust engine, however it's Italian and probably too pricey to buy.
    
    MattB

    
>    I like the idea about the Meastro though, they are supposed to be
>    fairly quick, but they probably cost loads, and with the 2.0 litre
>    engine insurance would be loads.
 
	The 2.0 GTI MG Maestro is group 5.

	Not cheap, but not expensive either.

	Heather

    
    Maestros & Montegos very cheap at your local trade auction ....... the
    quicker, the cheaper, at the moment.
    
    On classics, don't forget to test whether you qualify for appropriate
    insurance through an owners club. Cut-off age is often 25, & mileage
    may be limited. All depends on the club, but great deals can be found
    (especially on motor-cycles, but that's another conference)
    
    Colin

    
    re .10
    
    Spitfire with an improved Rover V8 .... go the whole hog and fit the
    RB211 with afterburner. 
    
    My hapeth ...  Why not a Dolomite Sprint .....
    
    Chris.

    On the insurance side, try Swinton's or the CO-OP. I found the CO-OP
    to be the cheapest prices around... of course this was all since the
    new insurance system, which i've been lucky enough not to see yet! ;-)

    
    There're a few notes saying 'this car is group 4' or 'that car is group
    5'. Are these the new 20 group groups, or the old 7 group ones?
    
    Mark

    
    	RE.21.
    		Do you have a phone number for the CO-OP.I've tried the
    AA,what a rip off!!!!
    
    		Thanks
    		
    	Andy......

    Andy,
    
    	This number is for the CO-OP in Croydon. They will give you your
    local number. 081-688-0054. Good luck, and let us know how you get
    on and what the quote is!
    
    Regards,
    
    					Lewis.

If you're in Reading, the number for the Co-op insurance is 580744.

They will give you the number for the agent who deals with your local
area.  You then phone him/her for a quote.

I know the new insurance groupings don't start till 1st July for the
Co-op.  I would expect it to be the same for all companies.

Carol.

    RE.24
    
    	Heart attack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    
    		The Croydon branch quoted me (are you sitting down)
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    			1685 pounds,with One years no-claims,...
    
    
    	The AA quoted me 1060 pounds.
    
    
    		I'll try Reading!
    	Thanks for the info.
    		Andy.....to young to live...

                     <<< Note 1768.26 by REPAIR::ATKINS >>>
>>    			1685 pounds,with One years no-claims,...
>>   	The AA quoted me 1060 pounds.
 
    	Am I missing something here ? 
    	To insure what ?
    	Hot-hatch, RB-211 powered mini, hoop and a stick, pair of
    	flip-flops, unicycle or what ?
    
    	Stevie.

Andy,

I used to think that it would get better when 25 came along.

IT'S A LIE!!!

By the time you are 25,  I will lay odds you are driving a car that is worth 
more and is faster than the one you currently own.  This will undoubtedly cost
more in insurance.

I can only add that my insurance has increased by at least 20% per year with no
accidents,  all this just for living in Reading and wanting something other than
an Escort!  Sob Sob!

I wonder what people are paying these days?  It seems that unless you are 35+ 
with a clean record from age 21,  a figure of over 1000 seems normal for any 
decent car.

_Richard

    
    	Re.27
    
    		I drive an Astra SR.It's a group 4 car.I'm 18.I decided
    that the SR would be a good buy,as the insurance is less for a
    non-injected car,and it's only regarded as a warm Hatch.
    
    			With my current insurance company i'm paying 1600 
    pounds,and that's without any no claims.......
    
    
    	Oh well,I'll try again!
    
    		Andy.....Delicate sound of thunder....(Floyd)
    

	My insurance is 350 quid for a 2.0 GTI Montego, group 5, same as the 
	Maestro was. (cover is for me and named driver and business travel).
	It has 2 protected no-claims, and I had to claim a year-and-a-half ago
	because someone reversed into it in a car-park (@#$^*()(*&&&.
	There is a note here somewhere about the fun I had when the keys were
	nicked from the garage!

	the 3.5L V8 is 250ish quid for Dave (with me as named driver) - it was 
	bumped up the rear over a year ago, and he had to claim.
	I have no idea what insurance group it is, most companies won't touch
	a kit car, it's through specialist insurance and has 10% discount as
	Dave is a member of the NG owners club.

	My insurance went down at 30 - Royal insurance has a 30 + scheme,
	it goes down again at 50!!!!!!!

	35 didn't seem to come into it at all.

	Heather

 RE: .-1

Sorry,  the 35 was a red herring... just quoted as an example that you never 
seem to be old enough for the insurers,  until you are 70+,  then you become
a liability.

What annoys me is the fact that insurers seem to regard engine cc as an absolute
measurement of performance.

I drive Vauxhall Senators,  now I admit they are quick 130mph,  0-60 under 10s
(Yes Yes I know that is slow acc compared to GTi's etc...)  However the average
Cavalier/Sierra is now capable of 120+ and is classed as much cheaper insurance.

I find it very hard to believe that these older cars are more expensive to 
repair,  as I do most work myself and find that parts are cheap,  the mechanicals
are quite simple and in general there are no fancy materials/electronics that
seem to be spreading in modern cars.

It can't be value,  they are only worth approx 3000-4000 these days,  so what
is the problem?  My bet is that they see 3000cc and say (cor blimey must be a 
rocket,  muchos expensive to repair and will have accidents all the time)
This is plainly not true,  of course drivers of these cars have accidents,
but nowhere near as much as a 16v twincam turbo nutter xr/rs gti special etc.!!

So that is my tale of woe with insurance...

25+, 3years no claims,  no accidents, clean license etc... and 1000 plus premium!
(The 3years is because of long time with company motors)

_Richard

    
    	Lewis,	
    
    	Insurance must be a boom business.I think although there are many
    insurance companies,it's still a bit of a monopoly.
    		
    	CON!CON!CON!CON.
    
    	I've called Bennets and they've quoted me 1034 pounds.
    
    	Andy......It's good to have mates in the business.....
    

    
    If you are interested in high performance cars, driving them
    progressively and safely on road and circuit, and fed up with
    OTT insurance, then the High Performance Course may make sense.
    
    The AA rates it as "the most advanced driver training course
    currently available", and members over 25 are now eligible for
    reduced insurance from Cornhill - cover includes 45 day green card,
    allows other club members to drive the car, and covers the
    car for use on circuits (not racing) subject to a 10% excess.
    As an example, a 27 yr old with max NCB, just inside M25 with
    an F reg 911 Club Sport (value less than 30K) pays about 800 pounds.
    
    William.
    

Re: .-1

So,  what is the telephone number etc....

_Richard

    I dunno what you people think of this but here goes.
    
    Spitfire 1500
    
    Never been insured before, 21 yrs old, clean license for 3 years :
    
    Fully Comp = about 400
    Third Party Fire and Theft = 280
    
    (could have got cheaper if I'd gone for limited mileage)
    
    Bazza
    

    re .34
    
    Why not take the risk and go for TPF&T...
    
    This has got to be the best bet in your case for any car <3500 in
    value.   When you work out the saving you will make plus don't forget
    the XS (250+)..  This is what I intend to do when I buy my next car
    (hopefully a Astra GTE 1.8i)..  Highest quote so far : 4000 fully comp!
    Lowest so far : 780 TPF&T.  
    
    ..Craig

> Why not take the risk and go for TPF&T...

That's what I did with my first car... I wrote it off a month later!

:-(

The bottom line is, could you afford to buy a replacement car if you
wrote your car off?

Jon

PS My driving has improved since then... 

:-)

    
    
    Insurance has a big part to play in deciding what car most suits your
    ability to pay the premiums from year to year.
    
    This is however getting a little of the track of what I was getting at.
    
    Underestimated cars....  underestimated by:-
    
    	o Insurance Companies
    	o The public
    	o Ford RS Nutter Banana owners who need to be thrashed by something
    	  that looks like it would have trouble reaching 60mhp.
    
    The list so far goes thus:-
    
    Sunbeam Ti			Dolomite Sprint		MGB
    Strada 105 TC		Fiat 131 Sport		Spitfire
    Strada 130 TC Abarth	Sunbeam Tiger		Maestro MG EFi 2.0
    Lotus Sunbeam		Maestro Turbo		BMW 2002Tii
    Skoda Rapide Coupe		Montego Turbo		Morris Ital 2l HLS Auto
    RS2600 Capri		Hillman Hunter GLS
    
    Only these fall into the catagory of true, fast but underestimated
    cars:-
    
    Sunbeam Ti			Strada 105 TC		Fiat 131 Sport
    Maestro MG EFi 2.0
    
    All the rest are possibilities.
    
    Any more suggestions,
    
    	MattB

  >>    o Ford RS Nutter Banana owners who need to be thrashed by something
  >>  	  that looks like it would have trouble reaching 60mhp.
    
    
    Matt, you arn't referring to anyone in particular are you :^)
    
    Gary.

    
    
    'fraid so....
    
    	MattB

    DOnt get bitchy boys......it'll end in tears !!
    
    Bazza
    

    Enjoy getting the top down yesterday Baz ?
    
    Gary.

    I havent put the top up in 3 days......lush !!
    
    Bazza
    

Re: .-1

Dave,

I honestly found that being 25 hadn't helped much at all.  My premiums kept 
increasing due to my misfortune of living in central Reading and the fact I like
cars other than escorts.

I quote from Eagle Star Direct, 

         "We don't insure anybody under 30 for a Senator Sir!!!"

Now when I was moving up through Nova's etc... everybody told me that it would
get better when I was 25,  it is plainly not true,  the targets keep moving
according to market trends.

I now wonder if we need an insurance class inbetween TPF&T and COMP,  it would
cover you for total loss in major league accident (more than 50% of car value
to repair)  and forget it for the 500/1000 pound repair bills that people are
fond of sending in because of fender benders etc...  This is like having a huge
excess, except for that fact when you really HAVE to claim,  the excess does not
apply.

I will be insuring my cars through an owners club this year, I am tired of 
spending over 33% of the car value on insurance.

_Richard  

    I don't think I like the British insurance companies.
    
    In the Netherlands the only "complicated" aspect is the no-claim
    formula.
    Basically all car insurances are based on vehicle weight. Some
    companies correct the premium with an eye on the last known list price.
    Then they look at the coverage you want and they work out a base price.
    The no-claim system then comes into action:
    Every year of no-caim insured years adds an discount percentage to your
    record.
    Being under 25 or over 55 is about 10% negative discount.
    Big, densely populated cities also add 10% whereas remote parts of the
    country deduct up to 15%.
    
    If you know you will do less then 10K miles there's a special
    low-milage coverage at a lower base price.
    For cars over 15, 25, 30 or whatever else category there is you can
    close a Classic Car insurance. This covers the evaluated car value.
    Since they have experianced that these cars are generally seldom used
    the premium is LOW.
    
    Cars over 20 years old also get a tax advantage. You need no pay any
    road or vehicle tax at all!
    So a 21 year old supercar insured against ANYTHING at the taxation
    value will still cost you hardly any more then an extension on your house
    insurance for that Ming vase your wife got from auntie Edith.
    
    Peter(who-has-a-21year old-Landie-and-also-a-roadtax-deduction-on-his-
    Audi Avant TD)         

    
    
    Ok I've bitten!  A BMW 2002Tii does sound kinda good but...
    
    o What does they look like?
    o How much do they cost?
    o and what inurance group are they?
    
    Cheers,
    
    	MattB

    
    
          Here in Ireland we ain't so lucky. Insurance companies 
          (most are from the UK) take you for a ride with quotes.
          
          I am 23yrs with no accidents. My car is a Daihatsu Charade
          1000cc. and my cheapest quote was 900pounds TPF&T. They would'nt
          even quote me for comp. In some cases anybody under 25 would be
          lucky to get a quote for less than 1000. As for high powered cars
          cheapest quote is around the 2k mark.
    
          Gary
    
    
    

    We're changing our insurance to the AA. They effectively offer the
    services of a broker, without charging brokers fees. 
    
    We were with Medical Money Management, but we don't think they are
    competitive. They also advised us that the Fiesta 1.6S is technically a
    Sports Car (HA HA HA HA!) and would not normally insure it. 
    
    dougie
    

    
    Just bought an XR2 for the other half, only paid 1400 for it. It it
    only a Y reg.
    
    Just been phoning round asking for quotes and have been amazed. 
    
    I have 6 years no-claims, and fully comp this costs me between 550 and
    700 pounds, TPF&T between 350 and 425 pounds. The cheapesty being 307
    pounds and the winner.
    
    For the other half with 3 year no-claims it was even more. For fully
    comp is was between 1011 and 1200 and for TPF&T it was between 550 and 700
    
    
    We are both 24 years old, and the amount of insurance companies I have
    phoned, said it would be considerably cheaper after my 25th birthday
    arrrgghhhhh !!!!   Oh to have been born two months early :)
    
    
    mac

    
    I don't believe the "it'll be cheaper after..." line.
    
    It didn't get any cheaper when I was 25 and, despite being told 'Sorry
    Sir, we don't quote for Calibras to under 30s' and 'It would be less if 
    you were 30, Sir' I don't expect it to be any cheaper next year. 
    
    Of course if my insurance does suddenly half, I'll be in the market for
    a 16v Integrale! :^)
    
    Mark

    The high cost of insurance in Britain and Ireland is probably due to
    the fact that so many people develop compensitis after an accident and
    sue for huge amounts!!
    
    Here in Switzerland there's a set amount i.e. sFr. 20,000 for an injury
    or 50,000 for invalidity or death. (I think). 
    
    Result: premium for a 29 year old fully comp on an Opel Astra with full
    no claims bonus sFr. 800

re .53

>    We are both 24 years old, and the amount of insurance companies I have
>    phoned, said it would be considerably cheaper after my 25th birthday
>    arrrgghhhhh !!!!   Oh to have been born two months early :)

Why don't you get a short-term policy for 2 months, then you can get a
full year's policy at the over 25 rate.

The Co-op will do insurance by the month for 10% of the annual premium
per month.

Carol

    > The high cost of insurance in Britain and Ireland is probably due to
    > the fact that so many people develop compensitis after an accident and
    > sue for huge amounts!!
    
    What have you heard??  I had a crash 3 years ago .. three cars drove
    into the back of me (I was stationary), my seat back broke and I ended
    up in the back seat!!  I suffered whiplash (in a collar for 3 1/2
    weeks) and was off work for 8 weeks.  Eventually, when the other
    insurance company settled (18 months later) my compensation was 1500
    pounds.  This is huge amounts of money?????
    	I wish I'd had this accident in the US!  $2 million settlement
    easily!
    
    		Jon.
    
    

    Just read the newspapers any day and see what people get.
    
    One of my neighbours at home got 35,000! for a broken hip and leg when
    she was run over and that was after expenses.
    
    Other peoples backache/whiplash MIRACULOUSLY disappears after the court
    case. 
    
    I said Some peoples I am not referring to yours!!

    .last
    
    Phew! That kind of gives me the impression that i perhaps shouldn't
    attempt bringing it back to the UK!

I would like to nominate the FIAT 128 3P Berlinetta only 1300cc but twin carbs
, Momo Alloys with larger tyres it was a proper little shifter.

					Stuart 

    
    
    That sounds more like the kind of thing I was on about.
    
    Cheers,
    
    	MattB

LANCIA FULVIA from around the early seventies
LANCIA BETA Coupe late seventies

ALFA ROMEO GULIETTA 2+2 mid seventies

OPEL KADETTE GTE from the late seventies ,very light but 2.0I engine 

					Stuart