Conference terri::cars_uk

    Peter,
    
    It sounds like a problem with the servo unit, or the master cylinder
    seals. Either way your a brave man to drive it !!
    
    Simon.

    I had a similar problem with Peugeot 505.  The problem was intermittent
    and was cured only after the master cylinder was replaced.
    
    Be careful.
    
    John

    I agree with the servo unit.  However, the bleeding of the rear
    brakes needs to be done with the proportioning valve open.
    
    Just pry something between the body and the mechanism on the valve
    to make sure it is open for a proper bleed.   
    
    I'd say check the master cylinder first.
    
    Dale
    

    Chaps, 
    
    thanks so far,
    
    Apart from signs of leaks, what should I look for/how can I check, the
    master cylinder?
    
    As for bravery, the brakes still work, it's just a little strange!
    
    Peter

    When you press the pedal is there a "blank spot" with no resisance
    whatsoever ?  This indicates master cylinder wear.
    
    Paul

Brakes are a safety-critical system.

Do the right thing.  Take the car to a professional, 
or at least someone you can sue.

	Bob

	The symptoms seem to suggest a fault either in the master cylinder,
    or the front brake pipes, or calipers. The fact that the pedal is
    nearly going to the floor, seems to discount the servo being at fault.
    If the system on the Espace is similar to others it will be with split
    hydraulics, front and rear. The rear brakes sometimes locking when the 
    fronts are ineffective suggests that the rears are working OK, but the
    fronts are sometimes not. Likely causes are, master cylinder fault, brake 
    pipes leaking, flexible brake pipes leaking, a caliper fault, or air in the
    front brakes. Is the fluid level in the resovier dropping? If it is
    not, then suspect a fault in the master cylinder.
    
    	Having the back brakes lock before the front is dangerous as the
    car can easily spin. Having dodgy brakes at all is not a good idea.        
    
                  Jeremy

    Chaps,

    It's booked into a garage for tomorrow morning. This is a different one
    to he who did the initial work as I'm not overconfident in the first
    one's ability. I was also rather niffed at being charged for the
    re-bleed two weeks after the initial work "as they didn't know if I'd
    abused the car in the meantime".

    I selected tomorrow's garage because in agreement with the replies in
    here he said "sounds like the master cylinder".
     
    I'll post the result in here, probably next week.

    thanks again

    peter
    
    PS, I'd thought about a front/rear cylinder split but didn't
    understand the way the pressure limiter fitted into that arrangement.
    Guess I'll have to read the manual tonight!

    I always thought that "European" versions of cars had a diagonal brake
    split (my terminology is a bit lacking here!). So if one half of the
    brake system fails you will still be able to brake using a front wheel
    on one side of the car and a rear wheel on the other side. I believe
    that models for the Japanese market have a front/rear split.
    
    Have I misunderstood?
    
    Barry.

    Could it possibly be that one of your front wheel bearings is worn thus
    causing the brake pads to be pushed out from the brake disk? This would
    have the effect of requiring the brake peddle to pressed a couple of
    time to bring the pads back in to contact with the disk but the rear
    brake would still operate as normal due to the split braking system.
    
    
    Just an idea,
    
    
    Neil

    Best guess is master cylinder as others have said. The last note does
    remind me of something I used to take part in. Economy runs. You take a
    screwdriver to the pads and lever them off the disc as far as they will
    go and then NEVER touch the brakes until your 1 gallon runs out. If you
    forget to press the stop pedal a couple of times before you go out on
    the open road the results are "interesting". A warped disc or worn
    bearing etc could produce the same effect as the screwdriver, i.e.
    knock the pads away from the disc. You wouldn't see any drop in brake
    fluid unless the pads were pushed far enough back to force the fluid
    out of the top of the pot which you can very soon spot because of the
    rapid corrosion in that area!

    Chaps,
    
    A new master cylinder is on order.
    
    Unfortunately I'm in the UK at the moment but it's a left hand drive
    car. Hence most pedal related items are mirror imaged. A new one will
    take a day or two to arrive.
    
    When Joe Spanner did the pads, etc he left the fluid reservoir
    completely full. I can't work out how this could cause the failure, but
    I can't help wondering if it contributed.
    
    Peter

    Are you sure he did? Reason I ask is that my previous reply about the
    pads being moved off the disks would cause the fluid to rise
    substantially in the resevoir. You'd be surprised by how much.
    

    
    My money is on one of your brakes  binding intermittently, because
    the re-lining was not done properly, this causes the brake fluid to
    boil near the offending wheel. Next time you hit the pedal, it goes to
    the floor. You see no obvious leaks and the level in the master
    cylinder never alters.
    
    You could save a lot of money by simply waiting until the problem
    appears, stop the car and feel which drum/disc is twice as hot as the
    others!
    
    Bill

    Nice one Bill,
    
    Wouldn't I get pulling to one side? I know when it boiled, the air
    would take pressure of both sides, but just beforethat the "hot" pad
    would loose efficiency?
    
    Hmmm
    
    peter 
    

    Peter,
    It would be noticeable, i suppose if it was jammed quite tightly on one
    of the fronts, but i had this problem on a rear brake and it was
    impossible to detect from normal driving. I've found that even a small
    amount of sticking can produce this problem.
    
    Hope you fix it quick

    
    
    .15 beat me to it. You had the front disks & pads replaced. This means
    that both the front cylinders are suddenly operating in an area
    previously unused for some time. There could be rust or debris in this 
    area of the slave cylinder(s).
    
    I would expect the reservoir to have overflowed when both disks & pads
    were replaced.
    
    Some garages pinch the flexible hoses to stop fluid loss during brake 
    servicing, so its also possible that internal damage to the bore of the 
    flexible pipe could send fragments of rubber into the front wheel slave 
    cylinders, part-siezing 1 or both.
    
    For my money, I'd repair or replace both cylinders. This fault seems very
    dangerous. My guess is its fluid-boiling. The condition of the wheel
    bearings will also have an effect on this. Worn bearings may clear the
    fault temporarily as the calipers are forced apart.
    
    Tony.
    

    Chaps,
    
    The LH drive master cylinder arrived yesterday so it's going on at this
    very moment.
    
    We'll find out if it's the master cylinder or the slaves/fluid boiling
    in the next couple of days. More correctly, my wife will as she's the
    test pilot!
    
    I would have thought that rust/debris in the slaves would have caused
    loss of fluid, more than boiling. I'm not loosing fluid.
    
    Peter 
    

    
    Wise man, I'd get my wife to check out brake trouble too! Hope she's
    well insured!  8^)
    
    Kidding, really, just kidding!  8^)
    
    Nigel
    

    
    Peter,
    do you trust the garage? If they fit the new one and find that it
    hasn't cured the problem, they might fix the proper cause, not tell you
    and charge for the new MC.
    
    cynically yours :>)
    

    Chaps,
    
    Well I got it back with the new master cylinder.
    
    All looks (and feels) OK, including a reasonable length drive to check
    out the boiling fluid scenario.
    
    Wife now test driving it ;-}
    
    Thanks for all the input.
    
    Peter.
    

    re. Brakes
    
    	Go out and try and emergency stop (30mph, clear road, dry, etc..)
    ?!?!
    
    	I must admit the symptom you describe (*sudden* pedal change)
    sounds worrying, since a leak will usually be gradual. All I can think
    of is maybe a caliper is sticking ? Considering you've probably got
    4-pot calipers (I don't know what car we're talking about here) the
    effect on braking may not be immediately noticeable (since the other 3
    pistons will be working fine).
    
    	I'd have it checked out (if you're not willing to have a look
    yourself, of course).
    
    	As for the battery, I wouldn't expect it to leak THAT much after
    only 9 months.

    The brake pedal sinkling to the floor could be a faulty master
    cylinder. The seal around the piston is leaking, allowing fluid to
    return from the high pressure side (to the brakes) to the low pressure
    side (to the reservoir). In this case there is no overall loss of fluid
    (the reservoir remains full), but the brakes might give out on a long
    stop (from high speed say). They will recover if your release the pedal
    and try again (pumping the pedal).
    
    The white deposits could be the result of overflowing, possibly due to
    overcharging (faulty regulator in the alternator). It's not likely to
    be overheating from being overloaded. When you have topped
    up the cells you should check the density of the electrolyte (after
    allowing the added water to mix and the battery to charge up again).
    You may need to add acid if the density is too low. If you think the
    battery acid has spilled then wash the area thoroughly to remove any
    remaining acid. (You can use a weak bicarbonate of soda solution to
    help neutralise any remaining acid, but rinse in plain water again -
    and try not to get anything into the battery cells !). Check the
    voltage with the engine running at 2000-3000 rpm.
    
    I dont think either of these things should happen to a new car.
    
    Andrew

    Or something to do with a brake servo ? Pipe came loose?

    The battery on my 205 has been with the car since 1986.... Absolutely
    no white deposit at all.
    
    Reargards,
    
    Stephen

    Dave,
    
    See 2228.*
    
    Or try dir/title=brakes......don't work    ;-}
    
    Peter
    
    PS Maybe they've crossed your petrol filler with a brake pipe. This
    might explain several things!
    
    
    
    

    .2 says it for me. I agree with both diagnoses. In particular, the
    braking problem could be dirty fluid, but in any event, is almost
    certainly the master cylinder.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    Thanks folks - you confirmed that it should not be normal for a car
    under 1 year of age to exhibit the soft brakes and battery dandruff.
    
    RE: .3 - I had a check around the servo yesterday and a quick look
    near the wheels to make sure nothing has come loose. I'll check again
    just to make doubly certain. But in any case below the car it's dry.
    
    RE: .5
    
    Peter - I wondered about the other brake exploits (including yours) but
            as the car is still relatively new I wondered what I should
            expect. If the car had been over the one year (and therefore
            out of the warrenty period) then I would have done some more
            checking myself. At least now I know we can add it to the "to
            do" list for the garage on Thursday.
    
    RE: .7
    
    Martin - Trust you to talk about Vaseline!
    
            At the moment I don't see any battery dandruff around the
            terminals it's down the side and mainly in the battery tray.
    
    Thanks folks...
    
    Dave

    I'm surprised that somebody is making cars without sealed for life
    batteries nowadays.
    
    John O'Connor

    What car are we talking about, out of interest?

Taken from French car mag which listed problems etc. for about 200 cars

Car: Ford Mondeo

Reliability: most frequent problems

Mechanical:

    Gear Box:	2litre weakness of syncro for 2nd gear. Changing between
		1st and 2nd gear is not smooth, mostly when the engine is
		running with high revs. For the TD, jumps out of second.
		New syncro since Sept. '93. On TD 5th hard/slow to engage.
		
    Breaks:	Noisy pads in front

    Suspension:	Noisy (silent blocks) at joints at rear

    Active suspension:
		Sport suspension sometimes locked in "Sport" position. New
		electronic module in June '93. Some troubles due to bad
		positioning of wiring on rear wheel housing.

    Shock absorber:
		Some rear shock absorber deficient - noise (rattle eg. due
		to movement) - change under guarentee

Body work/Equipment:

    Wind noise:	whistles on low angles of window screen

    Glove compartment:
		Doesn't shut properly - rattles

    Petrol flap:
		Blocked with remote control - Cable badly adjusted in
		factory and grips within tubing. Corrected in May '93

    Speedo:	Needle "vibrates"

    Indicators:	Airbag indicator - blinks. Connection on steering wheel
		better connected since Nov. '93. Sometimes the indicator of
		cooling liquid lights without reason. Due to fautly sensor.

    Air vents:	On '93 models, the lever breaks on the right hand side on
		dashboard. Problem still continues on central air vents.

    Seats:	Creaks after 15,000 kms especially on the rear. Lock of the
		back seat noisy.

    Gear lever:	"Ball" not properly fastened and twists

    Vibrations:	Central console rubbing type creak on uneven surfaced
		road. 5th door plastic cover and rear shelf noisy.

    Finish:	Door covering (velours/velvet) comes unstuck just over the
		arm rest. Central console vulnerable to marking from
		scratches etc. Rear comparment noisy on "berline" 5 door.

	Dave, if you have white powdery stuff on the Battery tray, I'd wash it
off PDQ!  It is acid and will continue to eat the metal even if it looks dry and
harmless - it ain't!  As mentioned in a previous reply, use a solution of
Bicarbonate of Soda and rinse copiously with fresh water afterwards.

				Malcolm.

    RE: .38
    
    Patrick,
    
    >> Sounds like the parking (hand) brake ...
    
    No it happens even when you don't use it. The mechanic who test drove
    the car said it's certainly an ABS problem and he has only heard of it
    once before and he is not sure what the solution was! Anyway I'm
    certainly not going to let this problem rest because I don't fancy the
    warrenty running out and us being stuck with a nice bill when it
    finally does go wrong/breaks...!
    
    Dave
    
    P.S. I'll dig out the photo negatives in the next couple of days for 
         you and then see about getting them to EHQ.