Title: | Cars in the UK |
Notice: | Please read new conference charter 1.70 |
Moderator: | COMICS::SHELLEY ELD |
Created: | Sun Mar 06 1994 |
Last Modified: | Fri Jun 06 1997 |
Last Successful Update: | Fri Jun 06 1997 |
Number of topics: | 2584 |
Total number of notes: | 63384 |
Here's a subject to bore you all! The Electric Car is on it's way, Slowly! Electric cars aren't exactly new, in fact they predate petrol cars. One book I once read included the odd fact that at the beginning of the 20th century there were more electric cars on the roads of the USA than petrol. Of course the petrol car proved more amenable to improvement and in no time at all the electrics were wiped out. The technology of these early cars was that of the lead-acid battery and this hadn't changed much when attempts were made to resurrect electrics starting in the 60's. The great problem with EC's is that the sheer size of the batteries needed. Basically it takes about 25kW(33hp) to propel a small car at 70mph. If therefore you provide enough batteries to provide for a modest 100 mile range at full speed then you'll need half a ton of lead-acid batteries to do the job, and that's far more than half the weight of such a car. In fact the extra weight probably means that you'll need more power anyway. Also of course the accelleration with such a large load would be abysmal and yet you'd need to provide extra powerful brakes - altogether A no go situation. Designers tried to get around this problem by reducing the size of the vehicle and reducing it's maximum speed to make the end result tenable. None of these attempts met with any success. The most notable failure being the Sinclair C5 which followed these lines to the limit and produced a 'vehicle' that nobody wanted to travel in. The answer must lie in a better battery, and until this comes about there's not likely to be any better penetration of the market than the milk float. Peugeot are going to produce a version of their 205 powered by Nickel-Cadmium batteries. These aren't a lot better than Lead-Acid and the resultant 60 miles at 60 mph, 11.3 secs to reach 30mph isn't going to set the world on fire. But at least it's a proper car and might find a niche as a city commuter where the merits show to best effect. ie. * Virtually silent * Vibration free * No fuel used when stationary * Hardly any maintenance * Non polluting at point of use * Extremely cheap to run - equivalent to well over 100mpg. Remebering that some city centres are getting so congested that the authorities are for ever looking for ways to improve things they may also be made even cheaper (relatively) by legislation. To make a really big breakthrough though there's got to be a major improvement in battery technology. Whilst it is now possible, if desired, to vastly reduce the weight of cars there's still the problem of the great mass of batteries to be carried. If say a battery of twice the capacity were available then it could either be used to double the range of the car or, in conjunction with reduced weight, to halve the acceleration times. Either way this would produce something a lot more desirable to the public. Improve batteries 5 times and you've got something equivalent to a base level petrol car. I came accross a book in my local library on batteries and had a look at what it had to say about developements. The information included is obviously not secret so perhaps may not contain the most promising developments. Most of the research is from the US. * There are several types being worked on that provide 3x the lead acid level. Some of these are similar to batteries as we know them but one at least consists of an arrangement of a large tank containing electrolyte which is pumped through a separate chamber to generate the electricity. This would allow for 'instant' refills in a similar manner to fillups now except that the used stuff would need to be removed too. The chemicals used are pretty inocuous apparently. * More intersting it seemed were the high temperature batteries of which the main type was said to be the sodium/sulphur. These are similar to traditional batteries but have to operate at the high temperatures at which the constituents are liquids. The sodium sulphur one needs about 550 degrees F to work, and the chemicals used can be pretty dangerous they said and there's a finite risk of the battery rupturing if misused. It doesn't seem impossible to overcome this problem though. Having to heat them up before you can get started is another drawback, though with good insulation this could be minimised. To set against these seemingly considerable disadvantages has to be placed the merits which are a storage capacity of 'at least' 10x the lead acid model and near to 100% efficiency. (Most others mentioned only return some 65%-80% of the energy put in). Quite cheap to make too. You could make a real car with these if the problems could be overcome. Well that seemed to be that until I read in the Sunday Times last week of something that might revolutionise the situation completely. I looked at the article several times thinking it might be a spoof (It wouldn't be the first time they've been taken in!) but had to contend that I didn't know enough to doubt what was written so yertis - * The nuclear battery. This device generates electric power directly from nuclear waste. Built something like a transformer in a state of contiuous electrical oscillation the escaping Alpha particles are converted to electricity as they try to escape through the coils. The result is a small battery that will produce power continously for 35 years. The strontium 90 used is of course potentially dangerous, but apparently not much. It's said that the particles won't pass through a sheet of kitchen foil. Also this substance, which is what's left over from a normal reactor, is the stuff that nobody really knows how to get rid of anyway. Of course the merits of using something like this can, and undoubtedly will, be hotly debated. On balance I think I'd take the risk rather than suffer the more certain effects of acid rain, global warming and ozone problems that current systems generate. I'll admit of course to not really knowing much about things nuclear and have to take best advice in such matters, and the article isn't very specific about likely availability of usable models - ie it's still in the experimental stage. Also the thought of getting a near silent, virtually maintenance free car complete with fuel for 35 years might influence public opinion too should this become a reality. -John
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863.11 | News | VANILA::LINCOLN | Reality is not what it seems | Mon Jan 29 1990 15:03 | 24 |
Some more info on Electric Car developments. Los Angeles has ordered 3,000 of the Peugeot 205s to test the feasibility of electric car use. I would imagine that this will make it the biggest selling electric car of all time. General Motors has announced an electric car called the Impact. It's said to have performance close to that of a conventional car and a top speed of 100mph. The range is given as 120 miles but they don't say at what speed. I somehow doubt that it's at such a high speed and would guess it's more likely to be 55mph being in the US. I wonder whether it uses sulphur battery technology?. Volkswagen are experimenting with a hybrid vehicle which runs on batteries to 30mph and conventionally above that. Clive Sinclair hasn't totally given up on electric vehicles and is talking about his small car version. Unfortunately the artists impression showed a rather futuristic vehicle which I can't imagine people buying. The great merit of the 205 version is that it is a 'proper' car. -John | |||||
863.12 | SAC::PHILPOTT_I | Col I F 'Tsingtao Dhum' Philpott | Mon Jan 29 1990 16:55 | 7 | |
863.13 | silent 205 | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Mon Jan 29 1990 20:50 | 7 |
re .11 3000 cars for a test ! Sounds more like a real firm order to me. Over here (France) it is known that Peugeot will announce the "205 electrique" later this year and that a number of french towns will use them for urban services. | |||||
863.14 | VANILA::LINCOLN | Reality is not what it seems | Tue Jan 30 1990 16:06 | 5 | |
I think the LA purchase is for their 'public works' departments. Perhaps they want to set an example or such like. -John | |||||
863.15 | BRIANH::NAYLOR | Purring on all 12 cylinders | Tue Jan 30 1990 18:11 | 5 | |
>> Perhaps they want to set an example >>or such like. you betcha - with the emission laws in Ca the way they are, the electric cars have *NO* problem passing inspection for the next nnn years! | |||||
863.16 | COMICS::WEGG | Some hard-boiled eggs & some nuts | Wed Jan 31 1990 14:07 | 17 | |
There was an item on the Radio 1 news last night about three of the current (:-)) electric cars projects. PEUGEOT 205: Max speed 65 mph. Range 40 miles. A Peugeot spokesman said that it was only to be the 'commercial' vehicle, (i.e. the van) as with this range/speed, it's major benefit would be for in town deliveries. Peugeot did not see any market at the moment for a domestic car with the current limitations in technology. SINCLAIR C15: Sir Clive is pressing ahead with his car design. No firm details, or even extravagant claims. GENERAL MOTORS: Two seater of 'tear drop' design. 0-60 in 8 secs, maximum speed 100 mph, but will be governed to 65. No claims about the range. Ian. | |||||
863.17 | orginal Sinclair info | NYEM1::MILBERG | Barry Milberg | Wed Jan 31 1990 15:18 | 9 |
I had an opportunity to buy one of the original Sinclairs HERE IN THE STATES - someone had 'smuggled' one in! It may still be available - so what is the availability of parts currently and did anyone own one and have any long term ownership comments? It will be for limited, fun use. -Barry- | |||||
863.18 | On C5 | VANILA::LINCOLN | Reality is not what it seems | Wed Jan 31 1990 16:05 | 16 |
Well basically what happened was that nobody bought this 'death trap' contraption. Production was soon stopped and it's said that the majority ended up in Holiday Camps - ie off the public roads. No idea if you can get any support but I doubt whether much would be needed either. What I always thought about the C5, was that if it had actually been what it was legally said to be ie. 'An Electrically Assisted Bicycle' it could have been quite successful. It would have been cheaper to run, and quieter than the ubiquitous 50cc bicycle. Trouble is that Clive Sinclair doesn't often have much sense of what the public wants and his hit rate is somewhat erratic!. -John | |||||
863.19 | SAC::PHILPOTT_I | Col I F 'Tsingtao Dhum' Philpott | Wed Jan 31 1990 16:18 | 11 | |
863.20 | Ah sweet memories! | SHAPES::STREATFIELDC | Run a Beetle?..IOSG::AIR_COOLED | Wed Jan 31 1990 17:13 | 15 |
863.21 | PEKING::TAYLORG | Bodybuilders do it till it hurts | Thu Feb 01 1990 11:21 | 5 | |
re-1 I think the C5 had a top speed of 15mph. Grant | |||||
863.22 | COMICS::WEGG | Some hard-boiled eggs & some nuts | Mon Feb 05 1990 11:06 | 16 | |
I made one of my regular pilgrimages to the Fernhurst Motor Company this weekend - always a favourite jaunt for a Sunday afternoon. Amongst the collection at the moment are 4 TVR's (including 1 brand new), a Morgan, several Jaguars of various ages, 2 TR6's, a very well kept MGA, several MGB's and an MGC. There was a Triumph Stag with the registration 90 MPH, an American vehicle I couldn't identify and several others I've forgotten about. And standing on the pavement outside the showroom doors: A Sinclair C5! It didn't have a price on it - and having spent some time drooling over the cars above, trying to look like genuine customer, I'm sure you'll forgive me for not asking! Ian. | |||||
863.23 | VANISH::TALBOYS | Peter Talboys 774-6162 | Mon Feb 05 1990 14:36 | 7 | |
The C5 is up for 795 pounds, or was when I was in there last. You might even have seen my ex TVR up there having the back end repaired _again_ dark BRG with TVR8S plate ... They've got some nice machinery in the workshops at the moment, including a couple of E-types, an AC Ace, and a Cobra replica, an XK120, recently imported from the States, that didn't survive the crossing too well, and a couple of big '30s Lincolns, and of course a few TVR's ... Ho hum, I'm going to miss going up there every few weeks :-( | |||||
863.24 | News | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Fri Apr 27 1990 16:25 | 13 |
Tommorrow's World had a small article on this yeaterday. Main point of interest was that the GM Impact car uses AC drive motors driven by an inverter from the DC battery supply. Although they didn't actually say so it can be assumed that the output from the inverter is of variable frequency since AC motors are essentially constant speed devices normally. They claim it's a breakthrough on accout of the high efficiency obtained. The car will go into production apparently. All they need now is better batteries I reckon since it's got the performance but not the range at present. -John |