Conference terri::cars_uk

    Does anybody out there have any experience of Page & Moy's "quick
    & cheap" coach trips to European GPs? We're thinking about taking
    the one to San Marino and the one to Hockenheim both of which involve
    overnight coach dashes. Any experiences would be useful.
    
    Also, I can highly recommend the autobiography of Gilles Villeneuve
    which found its way into my Xmas stocking. Its a warts n'all story
    but doesn't step over the line into tabloid territory. Its obvious
    that the author (Peter Donaldson I think - my memory is still in
    alcohol mode!) both knew and liked Gilles. Rating 5 stars.
    
    Paul

    From this weeks Autocar & Motor (reprinted without permission)
    
    Predictions for the '90s
    
    1990
    
    March 
    Mansell & Senna collide at the first corner in Phoenix
    Piquet wins in the John Barnard Benetton
    
    1991
    
    October
    Barnard leaves Benetton for Arrows
    
    1992
    
    March
    Caffi wins Brazilian GP in Barnard Arrows, Senna & Berger collide
    on first corner
    
    June
    JMB retires
    
    December
    Prost retires from driving to replace JMB
    
    1993
    
    January
    Barnard leaves Arrows to join Zakspeed
    
    November
    Schneider becomes World Champion for Zakspeed
    
    1994
    
    March
    Senna threatens to retire after first corner collision with Schneider
    in Brazil
    
    1995
    
    January
    Barnard leaves Zakspeed for Eurobrun-Hyundai
    
    March
    Foitek wins Brazilian GP for Eurobrun. senna fined for running over
    FISA president in pit-lane
    
    1996
    
    March
    McNish wins Brazilian GP in first race for Hyundai - the first win
    for a non-John Barnard designed car for three years. (June-John
    Barnard designed Proton wins Le Mans 300km)
    
    1997
    
    March
    FISA debates growing number of accidents  while John Barnard reveals
    new design steered by remote control from the pit lane. Senna comes
    out of retirement.
    
    November
    Prost retire as President of FISA to be replaced by Murray Walker
    
    1998
    
    March
    Senna makes a triumphant return to the pit lane by winning the
    Brazilian GP in the remote control Barnard
    
    1999
    
    March
    McNish treads on Senna's remote control pad in Brazil pits. FISA
    president Murray Walker fines both $500k and issues one year ban.
    
    There's a load of other tongue in cheek stuff in the article, I've
    just extracted the F1 bits.
    
    Paul

    
    I've not been on a Page & Moy trip to a GP, but a couple of us went
    with them (I think) to the Spa 1000km (Ah, those were the days!)
    a few years ago and the whole trip was highly enjoyable. The coaches
    were comfortable and clean (more than can be said for the Jaguar
    Travel Club!) and the hotel they used was good (but I guess you're
    not staying in a hotel), so good in fact that when I drove we stayed
    there again.
    
    Mark

    

    New Year Bits from Autosport -
    
    Pre Xmas testing at Ricard saw Hunt the Shunt, Laffite, Tambay and
    Ragnotti testing Williams's for TV. Other teams there - Onyx giving
    Eddie Irvine a go, Ligier - with Larini totalling a chassis, Arrows,
    Zakspeed, Benetton, Dallara and Lola.
    
    Johnny Herbert in discussion with Osella but Grouillard more likely
    to get the seat. Herbert is also talking to Coloni and Eurobrun.
    
    Emerson Fittipaldi has scotched the rumours about his bet with Big
    Bernie also saying that if he ever did get back in an F1 it would
    be of equal quality to his CART Penske (ie better than the rumoured
    Minardi!)
    
    Arrows have been sold 100% to Footwork for around #6m. Jackie Oliver
    and Alan Rees will stay with the team as employees (rich ones I
    presume!)
    
    The Spanish GP in 1992 will be in Barcelona to coincide with the
    Olympics
    
    Onyx have lapsed their option on Porsche engines. Brabham and Ligier
    rumoured to be bidding.
    
    On the fashion front.....
    
    Leyton House have bought a controlling interest in Hugo Boss - now
    we all know who they sponsor don't we.....
    
    Also this week:
    
    An update on who goes where for '90 -
    
    1/2 Ferrari - Prost/Mansell
    3/4 Tyrrell - Alesi/Nakajima
    5/6 Williams - Patrese/Boutsen
    7/8 Brabham - Brundle/Modena
    9/10 Arrows - Alboreto/Caffi
    11/12 Lotus - Warwick/Donnelly
    15/16 L/House - Gugelmin/Capelli
    17/18 Osella - ?/?
    19/20 Benetton - Nannini/Piquet
    21/22 Dallara - De Cesaris/?
    23/24 Minardi - Martini/Barilla
    25/26 Ligier - Alliot/Larini
    27/28 McLaren - Senna/Berger 
    29/30 Lola - Bernard/Suzuki
    31/32 Coloni - ?/?
    33/34 Eurobrun - Moreno/?
    35/36 Zakspeed - Schneider/?
    37/38 Onyx - Johansson/Lehto
    39/40 Rial - ?/?
    41/42 AGS - Tarquini/Dalmas
    
    Looking for seats - Pirro, Grouillard, Raphanel, Gachot, Bertaggia,
    Foitek, Sala, Apicella and Herbert
    
    Gone away since last year - Danner, Cheever, Palmer, Ghinzani and
    Arnoux
    
    There's also a good 1990 Almanac (tongue in cheek) and an interview
    with 1966 World Champion Pete Aron. One point for the first person
    to say who he is and how he was World Champion!
    
    Paul
    
    

Not Montjuich Park, I trust? Last time(?) it was run there (1975), Stommelen
left the road and killed 3 people - very nasty.

Pete Aaron (sp?) became World Champion by winning the final race at Monza of the 
fictional 1966 season in the John Frankenheimer movie, "Grand Prix".  Aaron 
was played by TV's Maverick, James Garner.

    Congratulations - on the nose! Autosport has done a spoof "Race
    of my Life" for Aron about the 1966 Monaco GP where he flew off
    into the harbour. According to the profile, he retired in '68 apart
    from an outing in a Porsche 917 at Sebring and is now a TV commentator
    for ESPN!
    
    Paul

I hear that Steve Nichols is following Prost to Ferrari. With all of the very 
good work that he's done over the years refining Barnard's MP4 design, I guess he
should be the ideal candidate to do the same job in Italy...

    Olivier Grouillard has signed for Osella. The team aalso announced that
    they would be using Pireli tyres.
    
    ken

           *****AYRTON SENNA HAS BEEN BANNED FROM F1*******

   Jean-Marie Balestre announced at lunchtime today that Ayrton Senna
   has been banned for the whole of the coming seasons F1. The report on
   the radio said that when Balestre and Senna met last (in Paris?)
   Senna has refused to withdraw the allegation that last years
   championship was manipulated.

   Balestre went on to say that Senna will remain banned until he withdraws 
   this allegation.

    Whattt????? I understand you can ban someone for dangerous driving or
    things like that, but banning because of disrespect????
    
    
    Well, I guess half the noters in this topic are banned from F1, for
    showing disrespect for JMB...
    
    JP

    Well I think its marvelous, Its the best thing that the little jumped
     up ex-dodgem car driver has done!
    
    Carl.
     

    He (JMB) can't be that stupid!... Everybody can express their views.
    What he is doing sounds like a vendetta to me...
                                                                  
    The problem is JMB thinks he is an all mighty god in the F1. 
    I really hope there something wrong with that piece of info...

    Re .61
    
    Unless your comment was tongue in cheek, try growing up. How can
    it be logical to ban the world's best driver even if you don't like
    his style you can't ban someone for their views on JMB
    
    Re the news
    
    This could be the straw that breaks JMBs back. If its true its the
    most idiotic decision yet. Last weeks Autosport carried quite a
    bit on the whole saga including a Q&A with JMB himself. To be honest
    his attitude stunk and he came across as an arrogant **** - but
    what else is new?
    
    Maybe if this is true it could provoke some sort of boycott?
    
    Paul

    French radio has also carried the story that Senna's F1 license is
    being witheld. Among reasons listed was Senna's accusation that JMB
    showed favouritism to Prost in the World Championship. I think we can
    expect appeals, threats, fines etc. It is the pantomime season after
    all.
    
    Ken

    
    The second most stupid decision the berk's ever made!
    
    String him up from the nearest lamp-post. I thought tin-pot
    dictators were going out of fashion!

    
    Mark

    RE-63
    
    I Think you may have got the wrongg end of the stick, 
    a) yes, there is no denying he is a good/one of the best drivers,
     although a touch too aggressive for my liking.
    b) The main reason behind the statement, was that Senna had, up until
    now, got away with a darn sight more than anyone else seemed to.
    
    c) I allways seem to get that symbol wrong -:), or is it :-) ??
    
    
    Carl.

    >I thought tin-pot dictators were going out of fashion!
    
    Only the left wing ones.  The right wing ones are doing rather well
    lately.  For instance, the Salvadorans, with U.S. assistance, just
    surpassed the 75,000 civilians killed benchmark, and they're flying
    higher than ever in American opinion polls.
    
    >... best driver in F1...
    
    Now Paul, not to deride this widely-held opinion, but only to play
    Doubting Thomas:
     
    * Senna has been driving perhaps the most dominant car in F1 history
      the last few years while given the team's more better engines
      and chassis to outdo a perhaps over-the-hill teammate who publicly
      admits to not trying that hard cuz he felt he was being screwed
      by the team.                                                
    
    * Despite all this during their two year as, ahem, "teammates,"
      Senna and Prost each came up with one Championship.
    
    * And this even though Senna by any objective analysis certainly
      violated every known form of gentlemanly behavior code extant
      in F1 running people off the road, blind passing, and otherwise
      endangering, intimidating, and bullying lesser driver/car combos
      for what many see as ill-gotten advantage.
    
    * And all of this he STILL could've established himself as the greatest
      except for his major flaw: lack of driver smarts.  The guy is
      the fastest I've ever seen but, as they say, "you've got to finish
      to finish first." 
    
    And being the best means finishing first, cuz winning races, not
    qualifying or fastest laps, is what it takes in F1.
    
    MrT

    I have been keeping up with the Le Mans Saga, mainly becuase I prefere
    sportscar to f1. However someone pointed out to me the ban Senna
    entry in this note. I can't say that I'm stunned . I think .62 hits
    the nail on the head ,vendetta. 
    
    I would appear that is if JMB doesn't like it or he can't beat it
    then he BAN's it. I can't see the teams putting up with any more of this
    kind of riduculous behaviour.
    
    I think the best thing for world motorsport of all classes would
    be to have organising bodies for each individual class , ie a sportscar
    organisation, F1 organisation etc. If the body has the best intrest
    of the sport they organise 
    \
    

    Autosport Bits
    
    Rial are unlikely to be back in 1990 meaning that Ligier will not
    have to prequalify.
    
    Zakspeed, Coloni and Osella likely to be only single car entries,
    but Eurobrun up to two.
    
    Ferrari will have a brand new V12 for '90 with the first run due
    for 15/01 at Ricard.
    
    McLaren to underwrite Allan McNish's career for three years and
    to give David Coulthard a test - Ecurie Ecosse-McLaren?
    
    Re a couple back
    
    Steve,
    
    Remember when Senna first came on the scene? The Toleman was a pig
    but he still nearly won, and his various Loti (plural of Lotus?)
    were a little ropey. With the exception of Suzuka Senna blew Prost
    away every time and I don't believe Prost's - My engine was fixed
    moans. I did once, but the more I thought about it the more it didn't
    gel. 
    
    Reading the Gilles Villeneuve biog over Xmas and the similarity
    of comments about dangerous driving was startling. The difference
    is of course was that Gilles was a playboy type in it for fun (and
    a bit of money!) whereas Ayrton is deadly serious. That makes Gilles
    everybody's favourite and Ayrton the enemy.
    
    If he isn't racing next year the whole championship will be devalued.
    Much as I love Ferrari I cannot enthuse over Prost and Mansell,
    while stirring my patriotism, irritates me. I Senna lightened up
    a bit he'd be my number one by a mile, as it is I'll watch Lotus
    despite the yellow paint and pray for a revival ( the engine will
    sound wonderful) and cheer on the friendliest team in F1 - Leyton
    House.
    
    Paul
    
    ps - anybody else reckon JMB looks (and acts) like De Gaulle? :-)
    

:::MOTOR SPORT
   The dispute between Jean-Marie Balestre and Ayrton Senna again makes the
   news. Balestre and FISA have demanded that Senna withdraw his allegations,
   made in Australia, that Balestre manipulated the championship to give Prost
   the title. Senna has until February 15th to apply for his F1 license, however
   Balestre has said his application will be ignored unless the allegation is
   withdrawn.

   Overshadowed by the Senna affair was another FISA decision concerning Le
   Mans. The ACO (organisiers of the event) have been told to include two
   chicanes in the Mulsanne straight if they wish to be inluded in the World
   Championship calendar. The race is provisionally scheduled for 16-17 June.

    Porsche engineer Klaus Reicheirt yesterday confirmed that the company would
   be returning to F1 with a 12 cylinder engine in the 1991 season. There has
   been no decision as to which team will get the engines.


...Art

    
    Re:. the last few
    
    It appears that not only do the ACO have to insert two chicanes into
    the Mulsanne straight to be allowed to include Le Mans in the world
    championship, they also have to 'apologise to FISA for defamatory
    comments' made earlier this year. Sounds familiar!
    
    I personally don't like the attitude that Senna displays when he races,
    but it is totally wrong to ban him because of his opinions and comments
    on them. If they are are untrue, and JMB feels that strongly, then the
    only fair action would be to sue him for slander/libel (can never
    remember which!) and perhaps the truth would be revealed.
    
    I've never followed the politics in racing much, so I don't know what
    the relationships are between FISA and country organisations like the
    RAC MSA. Constituitonally, how can JMB be removed? 
    
    I have already decided not to follow F1 next year, its a farce.
    
    David 

	Perhaps the most telling remark on this latest hoo-ha is 
	attributed to a member of the McLaren team -

	"It's a dispute between someone who believes in god, and
	someone who believes he is god"

	Actually, as I'm so often keen to point out, it was the
	committee that is taking this action not Balestre personally.
	Apparently when Senna was called to the committe in December
	he demonstrated an impatient, dismissive attitude towards
	them. This wound them up no end since as you know all beurocrats
	like to bowed too.

	Balestre, who no doubt has a lot of sway in FISA, simply revels
	in his image as king of all motor racing and enjoys winding up
	the likes of Mansell and Senna, who are abjectly hopeless
	politicians. He likes to be seen as the man, and always plays
	down the beurocracy aspect.

	Judging by some replies in this conference, he is superbly
	successful too with many motor racing followers.

	But what do the F1 community think?. I haven't noticed them
	queing up to support Mansell or Senna, nor even to denigrate
	Balestre. They remember when there were real issues as when 10
	years ago FISA/Balestre wanted to change the rules to favour
	Renault. Then there were real battles not just the petty
	squabling of overvamped driver egos.

	I'd agree that there's still scope to get the rules enforced
	more consistently. The incidents that have caused such a fuss
	this last year are akin to what happens when somebody who
	habitually speeds gets caught. They know they were legally in 
	the wrong but still scream blue murder of victimisation or
	whatever.

	-John (Who'll be watching avidly next year, with or without Senna)

    John,
    
    Remember the Renault fiasco well, what a palava that was!, still
    perhaps there was an omen from that, as a couple of years later,
    Renault pulled out!
    
    Carl.

    re .73
    
    Good perspective.  What's happened here is that JMB got pushed too
    hard too much too far by McHonda/Senna & Co., and has struck back
    with a vengeance.  It needn't be rational to be understandable.
    
    However it's cut, the bottom line is that I-Hear-A-Taunt's grievance
    is patently absurd.  He got away with murder, figuratively, at Jerez,
    and is now whining like a baby over his similarly obvious infractions
    at Suzuka, in a fit of egomaniacal pique that he can't get JMB back
    down on his knees where like before.
    
    The trouble is FISA keeps taking him to task for the wrong things.
    In the manner that they cited him for improper re-entry instead
    of push-starting; this time they should sue for slander and let
    him prove his ridiculous but very serious allegations before a court
    of law.
    
    Senna's been hanging around with Ron Dennis too long and it show...
    
    MrT

    .75
    Do you really mean what you wrote?
    
    Because if you do, let me remind you that whatever is said to make
    Senna look like a lunatic you won't be doing anything more than pure 
    fantasy. History will show you that.
    
    He is the best pilot at the moment, he driving for the best team
    and there no way, but the one recently used to stop this man. And
    that's at at desk. Not on the track....
    
    

    >Do you really mean what you wrote?
    
    Yes.
    
    >Let me remind you that whatever is said to make Senna look like
    >a lunatic you won't be doing anything more than pure fantasy. 
    >History will show you that.
    
    Well, so far history shows me that Senna has benefited from driving
    number 1 for an unbelievably dominant team (that $100 million per
    year has some effect, doesn't it?) and he ends up tied 1-1 with
    an older Prost in a #2 car.  History also tells me that Senna has
    a history of being hard on equipment and crashing (the price one
    pays for being so pushy on passes).  That Senna fans cry about all
    Senna's DNFs this year only underlines this fact.
    
    Until the Honda dominance is broken, or until FIA implements a NASCAR
    style scoring system, I can only see that Senna is possibly the
    best driver right now, and with only one Championship certainly
    not even in consideration for the greatest of all time.  After all,
    he DOES get marked down for bad driving decisions like everybody
    else, doesn't he?
    
    In any case, certainly his complaint about his treatment at Suzuka
    amounts to the "pure fantasy" you speak of.
    
    MrT
        
    

>    Because if you do, let me remind you that whatever is said to make
>    Senna look like a lunatic you won't be doing anything more than pure 
>    fantasy. History will show you that.
    
    He may not be a lunatic, but he sometimes sure drives like one.
    
>    He is the best pilot at the moment,
    
    Good pilots usually keep their cars "ON" the track and avoid
    unnecessary collisions. He's the best training driver, maybe.
    
    >he driving for the best team and there no way, but the one recently
    >used to stop this man. And that's at at desk. Not on the track....
    
    He could be found off the track more often than on it, last season. He
    doesn't need anybody else to stop him, he does it for himself.
    
    Rectifyingly yours,
    
    Chris

    Fellow fans,
    
    If it's true that Senna suggested that F1 was in some way rigged, then
    what else COULD JMB do but hit back VERY hard?  Stop and examine the
    potential damage that could be done to the sport by Senna's
    accusations.  Incredibly, JMB is doing his job in defending the sport
    against Senna's ravings. 
    
    RE:  Senna's "greatness."  Putting aside circus atmosphere, politics,
    sponsorship megabucks, nationalism, ad nauseum -- the object of racing
    is to win.  Senna IS a great qualifier, but as some of you have
    noticed, no points are awarded for pole positions.  I assume that
    history will rate Senna in terms of his victories -- not his poles.  If
    that's the case, then how does he stack up against Clark, Hill,
    Brabham, Stewart, Petersen, etc, etc?
    
    Final food for thought:  If Senna and Martini had swapped seats,
    Minardi would NOT have won the championship.  For most of the past
    several years (and maybe more to come) the World Champion is the better
    of the two McLaren drivers.  The most important people in F1 are John
    Barnard and all the nameless Honda engineers -- not drivers.  Second
    most important are the hated "financial fixers" -- Dennis, JMB, and
    others these fingers refuse to type.  Drivers might rank third in
    importance.  If I had the choice of Mansell and Prost, Mansell and
    Senna, OR Mansell and Benny Hill in cars designed by Barnard, I'd go
    for the latter.
    
    Hopelessly logical,
    
    Don

    re.-1:
    
    Hear it! Well said, this man.
    
    In case it should have been lost in btw. the lines: I read in a German
    newspaper that Prost did beat Jackie Stewarts record of won races,
    sometime this year.
    
    Any bell ringing?
    
    Commentingly yours,
    
    Chris
    
    P.S.: Let me reiterate that both Prost and Senna are equally non -
    existent, as far as my personal sympathies go.

    >and there is no way, but the one recently used to stop this man.
    >And that's at a desk. Not at the track....
     
    Nobody thought Senna was a lunatic until he started running people
    of the road and making fantastic allegations.  I don't know, or
    even care, whether he's a nut-case or not.  But I'll certainly not
    buy into his (and apparently your) hallucination that he was robbed
    of a victory at Suzuka.  The facts:
    
    1. He was driving the pit lane prior to the pass, and had been using
       it for some time.  If they were out to get Senna they could've
       used that technicality beforehand.
    
    2. He wasn't robbed of anything.  He was in the process of losing
       the race and was spared that ignominy by trying a pass that wasn't
       there.
    
    3. He was push-started, a clear violation rating disqualification,
       but for some wierd reason wasn't cited for this.  (Invoking Ricardo
       Patrese's push-start of several years back at Monaco begs the
       point: there wasn't any skirt to push Patrese off onto, and he
       happened to be sitting on a downhill segment of the track.)  The
       stewards kept pushing Senna until his car finally started.
    
    4. If anything Senna was the beneficiary of favoritism, up until he got
       too shrill with JMB.  He got away with a cardinal sin at Jerez, and
       had been the subject of complaints about extraordinarily dangerous
       and mean-spirited manuevers taken to his advantage - without so much
       as a peep from JMB & Co.  Has everybody forgotten his unbelievable
       chops on Prost in '88?
    
    It remains that drivng for 2 years with only one competitor he could've
    done better by driving smarter.
    
    At any rate, his lunacy and his greatness are separate issues.  Me, I
    was a Prost fan until he let himself be pushed around by Senna. I want
    a driver who's quick, smart, principled, and aggresive and I've found
    one: Mansell.
    
    MrT

how many seasons has Senna raced in F1?

is it 5 or 6 ?


...Art.

    I had the impression that Prost only had two WC titles, up until now.
    Can someone confirm the three titles (like, in what years?).
    
    Uncertainly yours,
    
    Chris

Re: .-1

Its three wins - '85, '86 and '89.

Lets add to this trivia and see how far complete a record we can get with
world chapions over the years - no peeking at books now; that's cheating!

I'll start - please fill in the blanks.

'89 Prost
'88 Senna
'87 Piquet
'86 Prost
'85 Prost
'84 Lauda
'83 Piquet
'82 Rosberg
'81 Piquet
'80 Jones
'79 Scheckter
'78 Andretti
'77 Lauda
'76 Hunt
'75 Lauda
'74 Fittipaldi
'73 Stewart
'72 Fittipaldi
'71 Stewart
'70 Rindt
'69 Stewart
'68 Hill    
'67 Hulme?

Now we have a mix of Clark, Brabham, Hill and Surtees - but I don't know the 
order.

    There's maybe (sadly) more: but one of the list mentioned in .86 became
    world champion posthumously.
    
    Who was it?
    
    Quizzly yours,
    
    Chris

Re: .86

I'll give it a try.

'66 Brabham
'65 Clark
'64 Surtees
'63 Clark
'62 G. Hill
'61 P. Hill
'60 Brabham
'59 Brabham
'58 Hawthorn
'57 Fangio
'56 Fangio
'55 Fangio
'54 Fangio
'53 Ascari
'52 Ascari
'51 Fangio
'50 Farina

   I believe Senna could legitimately claim that the championship had
   been manipulated. He obviously believes it was. He should be allowed 
   to say so.

   Since FISA don't publish any guidelines for the punishments to be
   handed out when rules are broken, they lay themselves open to the
   charge of manipulation. 

   FISA have said that they didn't manipulate the championship and have
   banned Senna. If Senna's claim was so ludicrous, would not a dignified 
   silence have been better. "Qui s'excuse, s'accuse"?

    As has already been said , if Senna spent more time on the track
    and less time scratching around in the sandtraps he would have had
    more points and the situation would not have arrisen. That would
    tend to make Senna's statement about the manipulation of the
    championship a little silly, if you don't finish you don't get points
    for trying. All in all the whole situation is plain stupid. What
    ever senna believe's for what ever reason , a personal opinion is
    just that, Fisa should be professional enough to see that his opinion
    is unfounded and in anycase  you cant win the championship when
    you play sandcastle instead of racing. If anybody done anything
    to the championship to effect the result he did buy not finishing
    in so many races. Stupid but simple.
    
    
    Garry
    
    
    
     

"From the point of talent and speed," Mansell says, "Senna is one of 
the great drivers.  No one could deny that.  But I don't think he copes
with pressure that well; since he's been with McLaren-Honda, he hasn't 
faced it that often.  He's worked very cleverly there, putting himself
in a position where he can demonstrate his ability without being seriously
challenged.  This is why people think he's far better than anyone else out 
there - which, in my opinion, is not true.  Yes, he's one of the great drivers
out there, but I think there are three or four of us who can do exactly the
same job - and do it better, in some respects.

"I know the only way he beats me, when we're racing together, is by having
me off.  Simple as that. He doesn't give a second thought to shutting the door,
or having people off the road.  If you're going to race alongside a guy like 
this, you have to make a full commitment, which literally means taking your life
in your hands.  But I made up my mind in Hungary if a chance came up, I'd take
it, and I'd hold my ground.

"Catching him, I could see where he was quicker, and where I was.   And when we
got up to Johansson, I think Ayrton made a small error of judgment on closing
speed, and had to back off a fraction.  There was a gap, and I went for it - 
there wasn't time to think about it.  Fortunately it came off.

"It's a sad thing to say, but I don't mind saying it: When you're racing with 
Senna, no matter how great he is and all that, you cannot trust him.  I've been
in situations where I've been following him through corners, and... let's say,
he's slowed down in places where you'd expect him to accelerate.  My senses
are never as highly tuned as when I'm running wheel-to-wheel with him.

"At Spa, you see, I had a real battle with Prost in the last few laps, but
that was a beautiful race, absolutely clean.  That's the difference between
the two blokes, you see.  Everything Alain's achieved, he's achieved as a 
sportsman."
                                              

    
    Ah, why don't we stop all this petty bickering.
    
    Mr Brito is obviously deeply in love with Ayrton while others of
    you consider him to be the anti-christ! 
    
    Let's look at the facts.
    
    Alain Prost won the world championship, whether or not Senna is
    declared winner of the Japanese GP.
    
    By now Senna has hopefully learnt his lesson (He is over aggressive
    at times, but it should be down to the Clerk's of the Course to
    bring him to book about this.) If he continues with his prima-donna
    behaviour then punish him when he commits an offence not 8 months
    later!
    
    The best thing now would be for all the parties to shut up and get
    on with sorting out the championship for next season. If Senna is
    so great he'll win the championship next season and if he isn't
    someone else might (only might, that depends on Honda!).
    
    Mark
    
    PS Oh yes, and Balestre is a w**ker!
    

    BTW, Senna still has not applied for the Super-License. Term date is
    Feb.15th.
    
    Re. Brito:
    
    Seems my TV set is tuned differently from yours. So are many other
    people's.
    
    Objectively yours,
    
    Chris

    
    Nothing personal Rui, it's just that your opinions do seem at odds
    with 99% of the other people in this conference. 
    
    You MIGHT be right and the rest of us wrong, but then again maybe
    you have a very different idea of what constitutes the truth to
    most of the other noters.
    
    Still, at least you are consistent in your belief that poor old
    Senna has been persecuted while other evil drivers like Mansell
    (who you poured equal scorn to that which Senna receives upon)
    can get away with anything.
    
    Mark

    Rathole .....
    
    " and Balestre is a w**ker "
    
    Judging by another conference, I don't think you should say this.
    Perhaps you should change it to:
    
    "Balestre is not recommended"
    
    :-) :-)

	What's wrong with calling the guy a wALKer ? I mean, he did,
	didn't he ? Walk across the track... ( which GP ? ) 

	...not recommended... (8^)

	Dave.

    
    >	What's wrong with calling the guy a wALKer ? I mean, he did,
    
    If you read the title in the note I put that in you'll see that
    that was EXACTLY what I meant. :^)

    I'm glad it wasn't lost on you.
            
    Mark

   Re : last few - yeah, you meant he was a "Murray Walker" didn't you?

   And then:

   Martin Brundle announced yesterday that he was leaving the Brabham F1
   team as they were failing to meet the conditions of his contract.
   It was not stipulated what these conditions were.


   Maybe Brundle will go back to Jaguar. They have a spare seat now that
   Cheever is returning to the US. Or maybe.....

    Latest news:
    
    From Ceefax
    
    FISA have rejected McLaren's application for the 1990 season until
    the Senna situation is resolved - who sees a FISA/FOCA war on the
    horizon?
    
    From The Guardian
    
    Silverstone has got a contract to run the British GP until 1996.
    Included in the package are circuit modifications to add 11 new
    corners (!!!!!) and more contour variations following this year's
    race. Should be interesting to see the plans.
    
    
    Anyway, as this topic has passed the 100 point with 5 weeks to go
    before the start of the season lets get down to some serious
    speculation rather than the -
    
    Ayrton is God/Ayrton is the Devil
    
    discussion we have been having.
    
    IMHO - I cannot see the champion coming from anyone outside the
    Senna/Prost/Mansell triangle although Berger must be a reasonable
    outside bet.
    
    Senna is unquestionably the quickest around but still has a bit
    of an F3 brain in tight situations. I reckon he will conquer this
    and he's my bet for the title. Prost is moving down the Piquet road
    in that he is not always motivated. However, his times in the Ferrari
    indicate some new enthusiasm so if the season starts well he should
    be in with a shout. But if things go badly he might start to drift.
    
    As for "Our Nige" he's obviously a contender but I wish he wouldn't
    whinge so much! Maybe its the Birmingham accent crossed with the
    pigeon english he now speaks! I reckon he'll be running Senna closest
    though. Gerhard? Too nice to be champion, but should pick up a few
    wins and may be a dark horse by accumulating points behind the other
    three.
    
    I can't see much hope for the rest. The Williams boys will be quick
    but neither seem regular race winners. Piquet and Nannini should
    go well but again don't seem to be able to do it regularly.
    
    My two big hopes for the year are that Lotus-Lambo will gel and
    become a front runner and that Leyton House will get their new V10
    running and get back to where they were in 1988.
    
    Outsider for a win? Alessi if the big 4 knock each other off.
    
    I throw myself open to your arrows.
    
    Paul

    Last night there was a forum on french radio "france inter" with
    JMB + Prost + Alesi. JMB declared exactly what .102 noted ie 
    
    - He declared McLaren is NOT guaranteed to be allowed to compete
    - Reason is that Senna has not yet apologized for his declarations
    - Real reason : Senna is a most brilliant driver but he has been
      MANIPULATED by Ron Dennis
    
    This sudden change of attitude is strange. About a week ago JMB
    was taking a very diplomatic attitude: "we're not asking for public
    apologies, just a frank discussion and ... sure we'll give Senna
    his F1 superlicense"
           
    Now he seems to be after Ron Dennis.

    >...to me last season's champion isn't the real one.
    
    C'mon, RUI!  8^o  Don't clutch to the fantasy that Ayrton actually
    "won" at Suzuka!  Nannini's people saw the repeated push starts on
    the big screen and told him to knock about 5 seconds off his lap
    time and stay out of his way.  Senna didn't "win" the Japanese,
    he finished ahead of a car that had let him catch up and go by
    uncontested knowing that, even on Honda's property, the push starts
    meant he, like Nigel in Estoril, "wasn't really there."
    
    
    You're right that many others have re-entered downcourse, but not
    after repeated push starts.  You're wrong to absolve Senna at Estoril 
    because the car was "technically not there," for a crash is a safety
    issue, not a standings issue.  Big difference.  
    
    Dangerous driving isn't the issue per se.  Dangerous driving FOR
    COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE is.  That Prost shut the door on Senna proves
    nothing.  We anti-Sennas never denied that.  But itt was a long
    overdue payback for the many times that Senna has done the same...
    only on those occassions Prost had the good sense to back off, 
    should poor Alain be penalized because Senna didn't?
                                                  
    But FINITO to this debate:
    
    re .102
    
    The competitive field is narrowed somewhat cuz two of the stronger
    cars are driven by steady but not especially quick pilots in Boutsen
    and Patrese.  They always seem to be in the top six in the running
    so when it rains or there are a lot of crashes they could pick up
    a win or two.  They seldom if ever compete on lap times, seems they
    compete more on consistency.  Nannini could surprise.  Over here
    in America the Ford people are hinting that they have that V-8 going
    so well that their V-12 project is being scaled back a bit.
    
    MrT

    Mr T, I can't believe the Ford V8 will be able to match the Honda,
    Ferrari, and Renault 10s and 12s.  On torque the Ford may well have
    an edge, but hp = revs, and revs = many smaller pistons, rods and
    valves, rather than fewer big ones.  In addition, as LJK Setright
    is so fond of pointing out, hp is also directly related to the total
    area of an engines combustion chambers and intake valves -- more
    cylinders give more of both.  Apparently, the difference in friction
    between 8s and 12s is not enought to make up for the 12's other
    advantages.
    
    Still remembering some of my M.E. courses,
    
    Don 

	With the new season approaching, maybe it's time to
	think about the 1990 prediction challenge.

	As many of you will know Colin Dawson has run a competition
	to predict the outcome of the F1 season for some years but
	may not be running it this year due to the admin problems.
	Some of this is doubtless because of the money aspect of it.
	So how about a very simple, pride at stake only, effort through
	the notes conference. This way we should get maximum number of
	entries.

	I suggest we make it just a question of predicting the top
	six drivers (1-6) in the world championship - simple.

	SCORING
	-------
	Less simple is the question of how to score it. Having entered
	a few of these over the years I'll suggest something for
	starters. 

	* 5 points for predicting a driver who gets in the top six.

	* 5 points for getting him in the correct place, 3 for 1 place
	out, and 1 for 2 places out.

	I haven't suggested any bonus for getting the winner correct 
	since it's often, particularly in recent years, easier to 
	predict the winner than any other position - so why give a
	bonus?.

	ENTRY TIME
	----------
	The choice here is -

	* Before the start of the season.

	* Before the second race.

	The first option is the more logical, but it usually takes the
	first race to 'wake' people up and it allows those who haven't
	been following the close season through mags etc. a chance to
	get some idea of form.

	ENTRY METHOD
	------------
	People could either just put their entry straight in here as
	a reply, where all can see it, or mail to someone who then
	publishes all after the cutoff date thus achieving confidentiality.

	We could have part season 'tables' to show how people are
	getting on. I think this season is destined to be the closest 
	for quite some years, should be interesting.
	
	Reply if you like the idea of the competition and if you've
	any ideas on the rules.

	-John

	PS. Only once have I ever managed to win one of these things
	and that was by being the only person to back Rosberg in his
	winning year!. The moral of this being that virtually unknown
	drivers can win if they get the right equipment.

    
    I don't think you'll see any entries until the JMB vs. Dennis battle
    extravaganza is resolved, John.  
    
    re .105
    
    No doubt about it you're right.  BUT, the mass/friction vs. bhp
    tradeoff theory, while certainly correct only within some broad
    framework.  For instance, Honda and its $100/yr coulda had their
    V-12 on the track two years ago, but apparently found either the
    mass, or friction, or ancillary tradeoffs such as size or reliabilty
    such that a V-10 made more sense.  The book right now sez a V-10
    can do more or less as well as a V-12, even excluding Honda, what with 
    Renault's relative success.
    
    I don't contend that V-8s make sense, but I swear Ford's making
    all kind of noises about how its development is outstripping their
    V-12 program (maybe this sez more about the bad work being done
    on the latter, dunno ;^).  And it could be they're smokescreening,
    a not uncommon practice in F1.
              
    Going back to the Renault, and its unique valvetrain in particular,
    one wonders why - givng its purported advantage in mass - it hasn't
    been implemented in a V-12.  I don't remember the valvetrain being
    unreliable, seems like everytime the Williams retire it was due
    to a radiator!
    
    MrT

    I just read on TV that McLaren have until 5pm tomorrow (Thursday) to
    pay Senna's $100,000 fine else they will be banned/suspended
    or something.
    
    Would JMB/FISA dare?

    re: .108
    
    They did!  Its just on the news.
    
    re: a previous note and a comment about recent times on Prost and the 
    	Ferarri, does anyone have any details....

>    They did!  Its just on the news.
  
	What did they do ?! Did FISA/JMB ban Senna/McLaren or did McLaren
	pay up ?   

	Pray tell !!

	Gordon

    The news this morning states that
    
    1.	Le Mans has been cancelled this year (by FISA) since no resolution
    	has been found to the long standing row over the section of the 
    	circuit that is considered too fast. Scuttlebut says that Mercedes
    	will run at 400+ Kph this season.
    2.	FISA has returned the request for a licence to McLaren.

          
    Are Oval pistons allowed in F1?  If they were Honda would be thinking
    in terms of 64v  v8's.

    Fellow noters,
    
    Is it true that Monsewer Ballast has rejected McLaren's application?
    Please, detailed input/answers in future!
    
    No, oval pistons are NOT allowed in F1.
    
    Don

RE: .108

The news that I heard on testing at Paul Ricard was the following:

Prost was the fastest in 1:03.8?
Mansell went around in 1:04.6?
Alliot was the suprise third fastest.

Last season, pole position was 1:07.??.

The report was in French, and I ain't bi-lingual, so I might have goofed; 
however those seem to broadly be the times. Looks like Ferrari are heading in
the right direction (3 seconds is a LOT of improvement); however I'm sure that
the other teams aren't lagging behind.

McLaren may be have had their licence returned; however I'm sure they'll be 
there at the start of the season - things always work out somehow!

    news this morning - and an interview last night.
    
    Ballestre was interviewed last night on TF1, 20:30.
    
    The ars***e journalist barraged him with impertinent comment, not too
    intelligent I might add, and even said that Ballestre was seen in
    certain quarters as the Caucescou of motor sport.
    
    Ballestre got the following accross:
    
    FISA is a professional body composed of approx 70,000 members, 30k from
    USA, approx 10k from the "east block" etc. etc.
    
    He said that he did not personally participate in the vote to sanction
    McLaren but that he personally is seen as the perpetrator.
    
    Now all you anarchists out there get your comment in, as I have mine,
    (that is democratic), but do bear in mind that formal motor sport would
    not run per se. without a rule making anfd governing body.
    
    George Frost

    
    Re .115
    
    Are you serious?
    
    I'd like to know how decisions are reached withing FISA, but I doubt
    that they are as truly democratic as your note implies.
    
    As has been mentioned before, the votes taken by FISA are always
    heavily loaded in favour of the vote that Balestre wants (such
    as 'Are you prepared to be responsible for a fatal crash at Le Mans
    or should the straight be chopped to bits'!). 
    
    As for impertinent comments. Who the f**k do you (or they) think
    that FISA are? They're basically a self appointed body, which can
    be usurped quite effectively if the will is there, as it has been
    in the USA. 
    
    Politicians get barracked for idiotic decisions, what makes FISA's
    tinpot dictatorship holier than them?
    
    Mark

    Mr. Saxby (or is it Mrs. or Ms),
    
    your ideas really are full of horses**t. Try thinking a bit. If the world
    of F1 etc. does not want FISA they won't keep the organisation around.
    
    To this end it appears that (news this morning) McLaren have paid up.
    Now if that is the case FISA must be regarded by McLaren as of some
    consequence.
    
    Why dont you start a formal get rid of Ballestre campaign - I might
    even join you, but untill such time I view FISA as legitimate and 
    Ballestre as their representative.
    
    George Frost

    RE: .112 & .113
    
    what are the advantages of oval pistons and why are they banned from F1?
    
    
    Regards
    
    Steven
    
    P.S. RE: -1 & -2, Do you really have to resort to swear words to put
         across your case?  Is this how you normally express yourself?
         I hardly think it gives credibility to your points of view when
         you have to resort to that type of language.

    
    Re .117
    
    Mr (Mrs or Ms) Frost. :^)
    
    You and I can't influence whether FISA exist or not. The only
    people with that power are the competitors and the race organisers
    , who still seem unable to present a united front against the rantings
    of  the current incumbent of the FISA presidency.
    
    If clear facts are to waste produce of horses (suit you Steve?)
    then I agree that my note is full of them, but it is a fact that
    in the United States big money, top line motor racing takes place
    which is controlled by the circuit owners and the competitors.
    
    It's no wonder that so many manufacturers choose to race in America
    rather than in FISA controlled World Championships when the rules
    are bent and twisted at whim by the 'supposed' governing body.
    
    Come on, next you'll be telling me that Bernie Ecclestone is solely
    interested in motorsport!
    
    Mark
    

    re: your facts, Tell me the facts on how FISA arrives at a decision.
    You admitted yourself that you don't know, actually nor do I.
    
    Who is Bernie Echostone?
    
    George Frost 

    
    Now I know you're winding me up!
    
    Mark

    Actually, Frosty the Snowman's quite a suitable kind of chap.

    re. a few back
    
    Well I did watch the famous interviews of Balestre last night on
    TF1 and FR3. He said he would announce the F1 teams today at 1pm.
    At 2:30pm still no announcement. He also said Senna was given until
    14 Feb to present apologies/explanations. He's really after McLaren.
    His words were : FISA World Council will announce the 32 or 34 cars
    registered to this year's F1 World Championship.

RE: -.1

That's exactly what the RAC's late motor sport director said when he stood
against Balestre, and lost, in 1982. The RAC were pretty unhappy about 
Balestre riding rough-shod over them and Lotus - the double wing car, which
prompted them to stand against Balestre. 

Basil (I forget his surname) was very diplomatic about the loss - no sour 
grapes - but left the reader in doubt about how Balestre has managed to stay 
in power. I think that he's been running the show for 12 seasons now - as long
as the UK's beloved leader?!

Cheers

Steve

    The question is who's democratic.  FISA is a business filled with
    businessmen; JMB's at the top during an unprecedented era of business
    success so he has mucho leverage.
    
    Frankly, I'm surprised at how quickly most of us have lost sight
    of the real issue here: Senna's behavior, on and off-track, became
    progressively more outrageous and dangerous over the past two years.
    JMB and Bernie let him get away with everything... until he finally
    turned on *them* as well.  Then I-Hear-A-Taunt, paranoiac that he
    surely is, impugns all of racing as involved in a plot to rob him
    of a race that he didn't even really win on the tarmac.
    
    JMB may be a heel, but he's got a point on the Senna issue.  As
    for Ecclestone, whom I consider a least twice as oily as JMB, he's
    done some good for motor racing.  He had the requisite testosterone 
    to force the Group C manufacturers to either show up at all the
    races or pay huge fines; a move that saved the great sport of sports
    car racing in Europe.
    
    Per my example, Bernie doesn't even LIKE sports cars, but as a business
    man he did the right thing for the sport.  I only wish he took such
    a long view for F1 with these rotten street courses, but as long
    as the money flows in (i.e., as long as you and I continue tuning
    in to view Phoenix) he'll respond to the only language he understands:
    cold hard cash.
    
    Similarly, it's bad business to let an unappreciative little squirt
    of a megalomanaic publicly crap all over the sport.  JMB's not nailing
    him for being a creep, he's doing it cuz it's prudent business!
    
    MrT

    	What actually runs motor racing isn't Balestre, FISA, the teams
    	and least of all drivers but -
    
    
    
    	MONEY
    
    	The sponsors who provide virtually all of the money to support
    	the great Grand Prix Circus want organised, world wide competition.
    	They would also prefer it to be close and entertaining to keep
    	Joe Public watching. 'Fans' take a back seat.
    
    	If FISA, the circuit people, national bodies etc. don't want to
    	provide the goods, then they'll go elsewhere. The key man in 
    	interpreting the wishes of the Money, is one Bernard Ecclestone,
    	president of FOCA, the organisation that represents most teams.
    
    	Together Balestre/FISA/FOCA are often obliged to meet with these
    	requirements, or at least up to a point. There's no point of
    	being a big fish in a non-existant pond after all.
    
    	This Senna incident is classic. He's not good PR really, not as
    	good as Prost and infinitely worse than the likes of Stewart and
    	Hill say. The money, apart from his immediate backers of course,
    	won't miss him. He's on a one way trip out at present, unless
    	he changes his ways.
    
    	Machines back, gotta go.
    
    	-John

    
   If Senna had shown the same brutality and pig-ignorance on the track
   as JMB and FISA show off it, many would have died.

   I would take 36 Ayrton Sennas rather than 1 JMB/FISA.

    
    Re .126
    
    You make a good point about MGB, but don't fall for his apparently
    generous acts towards Group C (and also don't forget that it was
    actually Jaguar's involvement in the sport that REALLY saved it,
    MGB just decided that all that money shouldn't be going elsewhere
    and that he should get his share, which did, admittedly help it
    even more).
    
    The latest FISA offensive upon sportscar racing (the 'murder' of
    the last truly classic sportscar race) leaves the door open to allow
    the introduction of Bernie's baby; Procars!
    
    These pseudo sportscars clad in saloon car bodies were probably
    one of the dumbest ideas anyone has ever had, being both unattractive
    to spectators, sponsors and the manufacturers who were supposed
    to be crying for them, and downright dangerous with F1 style power
    and no aerodynamics to handle it!

    Unsuprisingly it was treated with overwhelming disinterest, but now
    , with only short races on the calendar, it can begin to rear its
    ill-conceived head again. Anyone want a bet that the Group C rules
    won't change again within 3 years?
    
    Also, although Ecclestone forced the Japanese manufacturers to do
    the whole championship, why should they bother to take part now
    that their primary interest (Le Mans) has been thrown from the 
    championship for a second year? Very few people know who won the
    WSPC, but most people could tell you who won Le Mans.
    
    The current bungling in Group C will undoubtedly (IMO) lead to another
    period of dreary races dominated by one or two manufacturers in
    years to come as the WSPC becomes less and less important or relevant
    to manuacturers and sponsors alike.
    
    Another thing which FISA claim, which caused me to smile, was that
    THEY had saved sportscar racing by introducing Group C. Although
    it is true that they introduced Group C, it was, in fact, the ACO
    who virtually forced them into it by opening the Le Mans 24 hour
    race up to cars like the current Group C back in the late 70s/early
    80s. Nobody was interested in racing Group 5 (which is exactly what
    Procars sound like to me!), but many sponsors and manufacturers
    wanted to be seen to compete at Le Mans with big, exciting looking
    sports-racers.
    
    I'd forgotten about the attempt to seize control of FISA over the
    Lotus 80 affair, but at least it shows that there used to be people
    with spines involved in motor racing.
    
    Yours, increasingly disillusioned,
    
    	Mark
    

    Keep JMB's behavior in perspective by analogy: Frequently here in
    the States a player or coach goes off big-time claiming he was jobbed
    by an official or administrator or whatever.  This is tolerated
    within limits, part of the show you know, but when those limits
    are exceeded such behavior becomes detrimental to the common good
    of the sport.  It's quite common for big fines, suspensions, etc.
    to be levied when such limits are passed.  What JMB is doing now
    is not unusual to other sport.  In fact, the near anarchy that prevails
    in F1 is what's unique to it.
    
    re: Group C
    
    Could it be MGB was afraid of IMSA going international?  There's
    a lot of Japanese participation coming up in GTP lately, and that
    coulda meant co-opting them away from the C series, such as it is.
    I'd like to see GTP and C merge.
    
    re: ACO Le Mans
    
    Is Mulsaunne the real issue?  If technology can be used to increase
    race car performance why can't it be used to increase race TRACK
    performance?  For example, Indy Cars are hitting straightaway speeds
    of 230 MPH or thereabouts, and NASCAR stockers probably around 220;
    with the difference that they do it with the fans sitting just a
    few feet away!  I'm unfamiliar with Le Mans but my guess is that
    the fans are placed 100 feet or so away from the Mulsaunne.  With
    a race that prestigious why not reinforce the Armco and throw up
    some cable-reinforced fencing and let him fly?
    
    MrT

    
    Re .131
    
    There are places on the Mulsanne where you are only inches from
    the barrier! Not many people venture out to the straight at all
    though.
    
    Mark

>   If Senna had shown the same brutality and pig-ignorance on the track
>   as JMB and FISA show off it, many would have died.

>   I would take 36 Ayrton Sennas rather than 1 JMB/FISA.

    A touch sensitive we are today, aren't we?
    
    Wonderingly yours,
    
    Chris

    re .131
    
    I think that FISA's objection to the Mulsanne being too straight
    is for the drivers protection. The theory being that drive has nothing
    to do except keep his car in straight line, so thereby loses some
    concentration then bingo..it's kiss the armco time. I don't know
    if any drivers would necessarily agree with that. From interviews
    i've seen and heard they look on the Mulsanne as a nice rest and
    time to gather thoughts for the next circuit of the course.
    
    As for viewpoints, as Mark mentioned, you can get within inches
    of the armco *but* there are no *public* viewpoints at all on the
    Mulsanne. No stands, no access, nix. The only way to get there is
    by trudging across fields, or by visiting a restaurant that is on
    the straight and does a nice trade at very nice prices (thank you
    very much, just leave the arm and leg on the pile with the others)
    
    So as most people have already stated, if the drivers havn't asked
    for it, the constructors havn't said their cars can't handle it,
    and there is no danger to the public (as far as I could tell), then
    why do FISA want to cock it up ?
    
    I think that question has been asked many times.

    The BIG problem with LeMans "circuit" is that 80% of it is open public 
    roads. The straight is the normal road from LeMans to Tours. Only
    a few days before the race they close the road and try to make it
    a track. As noted earlier the straight is just straight line with
    ARMCO. But when you it anything (a rabbit, a squirrel, or a part
    of a wreck) at 400+ kmph all you find before your eyes is a forest
    full of trees. That's the main difference with other circuits. No
    emergency zones in the "Les Hunaudieres" (that's the real french
    name of the straight).              
    
    Henri Pescarolo survived a terrible accident when testing a Matra
    in the early 70's. At 300 kmph the nose suddenly lifted off. After
    a few aerobatics he hit the ground, not the trees, he was severely
    injured and burnt.
    
    Lucien Bianchi killed himself while testing the Alfa 33 in 1969
    at under 300kmph. He hit a tree after flying over the ARMCOs.
    
    The serious discussion that JMB mentions is how to make the circuit
    permanent and closed ?

    Its the wrong place for this but seeings how someone mentioned it. The
    straight at Le Mans has got to be an excuse. I go to as many sportscar
    races as possible per year and Le Mans is one. Apart from Brands Hatch
    last year , where the attendance was bigger that normal, that
    attendance at a sportscar meeting normal fairly small ,30,000 ish.
    At a normal meeting there  is very little coverage on TV,
    perhaps local or some of the satellite TV stations. At Le Mans there
    are 250,000 plus spectators, I would think that most national stations
    take coverage of some sort, except the beeb, and there's bundles of 
    travel companies who have hospitality laid on. All in all the whole
    event is something close to an F1 meeting it terms of number of
    spectator and TV coverage. What better place to jump on the band wagon
    and to grab loads of money for doing nothing. I would suggest that to
    FISA , Le Mans is an annoyance . That one race can command more
    spectators, generate more money from TV coverage and more general
    interest for one race than FISA can for a whole seasons championship.
    I guess that Fisa though that this was easy money and got peeved when
    it turned out to be a bit harder going.
    
    
    Garry
    

    Back to F1.
    
     Porsche have announced that ARROWS will have their engines for 1991. 
    

    Onyx seem to think that porsche had agreed to provide the V12 on a 5
    year contract to them , but porsche seem to not think so. On Teletex
    last night it suggested that Onyx were going to take porsche to court
    as this was causing onyx lots of problems an loosing them money.
    
    
    
    Garry

    The Restaurant "La Rascasse", which gave the famous "final" bend on the
    Monaco Grand Prix circuit its name, was up for auction because of
    commercial failure of the owners.
    
    Does this mean the end of a legend, if it goes to real estate sharks?
    
    Nostalgically yours,
    
    Chris

    Porsche Weissach (R&D center) will supply its F1 engine to the Footwork
    Arrows team for exclusive use for 3 years starting next year (1991,
    1992, 1993). Former discussions with Brabham, Moneytron-Onyx, Leyton
    House-March and Ligier (as reported by then chairman Heinz Branitzki) 
    were not conclusive.
    
    Just a note: it's funny to realize that one more European manufacturer
    teams up with a Japanese partner. If you talked to Porsche after
    their aborted adventure (with Marlboro McLaren) they were ready
    to fight. Seems that they have changed ideas.
    
    Summary:
    
    Footwork Arrows is almost 100% Japanese money
    Leyton House March is     100% Japanese money
    Moneytron-Onyx     is       x% Japanese money 
    Brabham            is       0% Japanese money (italian/swiss)
    Ligier             is       0% Japanese money (french public funds)
                                                                       

    Huh?
    
    ARROWS?  They don't even have a designer!  And Porsche entrusts their
    image to Alboreto (he of the disappearing talent) and Caffi (lots of
    potential, but . . . )  There's less here than meets the eye.
    
    LeMans.  Sorry to insert fact among the emotion, but both manufacturers
    (TWR/Jaguar) and drivers (Schlesser among them) are OPPOSED to that
    long straight.  Walkinshaw says that the long straight can mask a
    deflating tire -- you don't know it's bad until you lift off.  Then
    bye-bye.  And it's a fact that the tire manufacturers seem to have a
    hard time building a tire to handle that burst of speed -- and be worth
    anything around the rest of the track.  And I love LeMans. 
    
    Don
    

    McLaren have filed for two F1 cars: one for Gerhard Berger, one for a
    driver "to be nominated".
    
    Interesting, no?
    
    Reportingly yours,
    
    Chris

    re. Porsche and Footwork
    
    What this may mean:
    
    - Porsche got the money they asked for developping the engine over
      a period of time (Footwork have a lot of money to spend)
    - No top teams are ready to invest in a new design that has no guarantee
      of both success and long term support and dedication
              
    Porsche certainly made a BIG mistake when they dropped McLaren and
    they built a very bad image of themselves when they did not react
    to their many "electronics" failures. The Prost McLaren tandem should
    not have lost the title that year. The agreement with Footwork
    is extremely favorable for them while not putting them in the hands
    of Mr Van Rossem (who would be extremely unhappy with a "medium"
    engine).
    
    I think this means that they are NOT confident in their F1 product.

	I'm just wondering who 'Footwork' are?. Doesn't sound very
	Japanese to me. Anybody know.

	-John

    Footwork is a leading company in the food and agricultural business
    in Japan.
    
    What's funny to me is that all these japanese companies are switching
    names from traditional japanese to real anglo/american names. The
    reason is probably to fool their potential customers/partners. Footwork
    and Leyton House are examples in F1. Pioneer, Canon, ... etc ... are 
    others.
            

:::MOTOR SPORT
   Donnington will host a F1 race on Monday 16th April (Easter monday).
   Organised in collaboration with FOCA, the 80 lap race should feature most F1 
   teams. 
   * Williams are currently testing three different cars - Williams
   FW13B with a new Renault RS2 engine; FW12B with active suspension and an old
   Judd engine; FW12C with a Renault RS1 engine and a "mixed" part-active
   suspension. Fastest times at Jerez were by Patrese in the FW13B (1'16"23),
   followed by Prost and Mansell in Ferrari's (1'16"41 and 1'16" 44
   respectively). * The Le Mans 24-hour race will probably take place following
   intervention from the French goverment who have promised that the disputed
   chicanes will be installed, and that pit facilities will be improved for
   1991.




...Art

    I always assumed that the Leyton House name derived from some English
    trading house based in Japan or somesuch.
    
    What they gonna do with those chicanes on Mulsanne during normal
    street use?  They'll probably keep the straight segment intact but
    barricade it off during the race.
    
    Williams is sure experimenting a lot with configurations.  That
    could either be a good sign or a bad sign; sounds like maybe a bad
    sign to me.
    
    What's going on with Van Rossem.  I take it he's in hot water for
    tax evasion, is he going to jail?
    
    MrT

	The last non-championship F1 race to be held in Britain was
	a pretty lack lustre affiar it's true. But I'd welcome the
	opportunity to get to see some F1 without the crowding/endless
	queues that go with a GP. Bound to be cheaper too.

	-John

   A friend tells me that FISA will only allow the "1990" cars to
   compete from the first European round onwards. Is this true?

   Might make Donnington more attractive if it is - and possibly your
   only chance to see Ayrton Senna :-)

>   A friend tells me that FISA will only allow the "1990" cars to
>   compete from the first European round onwards. Is this true?

	Doesn't make much sense whatsoever. It's quite normal for
	many teams to start a season (always South America) with
	last years car since what with the transport delays and 
	the like, the new one isn't always ready.

	-John

Re: 837.89 by ASHBY::ZETTERLUND.

Looked it up last night - you got all of the champions exactly right - 
congratulations!

    re.152: your reply and the quote you extracted are NOT in
    contradiction. It says first "European" round. Now, what is unclear to
    me, is: does this mean that 1990 cars will be allowed beginning with
    the first European GP, only, or that only 1990 cars will be allowed as
    of the 1st EuroGP?
    
    Curiously yours,
    
    Chris

    1990 Latest
    
    The confirmed entry list shows that Rial & Zakspeed have dropped
    out (both saying they'll be back in '91), Osella and Coloni are
    down to one entry, Eurobrun are up to two cars and the Life team
    with Gary Brabham are now official.
    
    The list also confirms that McHonda have Nos 27 & 28 so all you
    Ayrton haters out there can have a field day when he appears with
    Gilles sacred number. Mind you it is a nice irony that "Our Nige"'s
    clothing franchise is based around No 27 :-)
    
    Pre Qualifiers will be AGS, Lola, Coloni, Eurobrun, Life and Osella.
    
    There are also rumours of problems with the Estoril circuit, and
    reports of total and utter confusion at Brabham. 
    
    Pictures of the Ferrari 641 show only minor exterior changes from
    the 640, but it has a bigger fuel tank (more power?) and secret
    mods to the auto-box that allows the drivers to change down without
    going through all the gears as last year. Electronic ride height
    adjustment is expected soon, and major changes are expected after
    Phoenix and Brazil (Donington debut??)
    
    As a side issue - the RACMSA are expected to announce shortly that
    the RAC Rally is going over to pace notes and a shorter more comapct
    format, ending years of "secret" stages. - RIP real rallying!
    
    Paul

>    mods to the auto-box that allows the drivers to change down without
>    going through all the gears as last year. 
 

	Now that could be very interesting indeed ! Think of all those cogs
	flying around when Mansell or Prost press the wrong button and
	go from 6th to 1st gear doing 150 m.p.h or so. Ooh, painfull.

	Gordon

    From today's Autosport Cartoon -
    
    A:(Re Sliverstone) 11 really challenging corners with contour
    variations and elevation changes, ideal spectator vantage points
    and grandstand position, plus a by-pass that connects with two
    motorways - so what do you think?
    
    B: Sounds like a description of Brands Hatch!
    
    Paul

    Do we still sponsor Ferrari ?
    
    Grant

>    Do we still sponsor Ferrari ?
 
	I thought DEC just payed vast sums of money to have a sticker on
	the nosecone, or does this constitute sponsorship :-)

	Gordon

    The pix of the F641 do not show any Digital stickers. I'd also heard
    on the grape-vine that Ferrari were switching to Big Blue for CAD.
    
    However, we have got a pretty good hold on the UK manufacturers
    with Leyton House, Arrows, Benneton and, I think, Williams and Lotus.
    
    I also heard a salesman's tale that we were hoping to sponsor L
    House, although we would'nt be showing a logo on the car 'cos KO
    doesn't like fast things. Maybe Andy Maclure in Newmarket could
    enlighten us if its not still under negotiation?
    
    Paul

I am sure this is covered elsewhere but Ferrari will only put the name of 
their suppliers on the car and not sponsors. Digital Italy supplied computer 
equipment and thus the Digital name on the nose cone over the last few 
years.

In the past Digital UK have given equipment to Mclaren in exchange for 
some two inch badges on the drivers overalls!

Hohum.

Dave.

   re. 161

   Surely this isn't true? Ferrari display Marlboro logos on the car?
   They must do more than just supply cigarettes?

    The Marlboro deal was the stickers in trade for the driver retainer,
    from what I remember.
    
    Dave

re .162:

What are you talking about, I never said anything of the kind.

Dave.

    I just seen a picture of Alain Prost standing next to his Ferrari
    after time trials in France in Autoweek mag. Digital logo was on
    the front of the car. Is the schedule set for 1990 yet? Dates and
    places of races been posted yet? Can't wait for GP in Montreal.
    
              Barry

    There is to be a "special" extraordinary meeting of FISA next week
    to review recent decisions. Could it be that JMB has finally pushed
    things too far?
    
    Re -1
    
    The first pictures of Prost with Ferrari's showed the 89 car which
    still had the Digital logo. You can look forward to seeing the cars
    in Montreal on April 10th, I seem to remember the full schedule
    being posted in the F1 1989 note.
    
    Paul

    Naw, the meeting was probably called by JMB to decide Senna's license
    for this year.  The deadline is the 15th so this would fit with that
    schedule.
    
    Dave

    Donington's Gone
    
    Latest on Ceefax last night was that the Donington 200 had been
    cancelled. Big Bernie was quoted that it would have been unfair
    to promote an F1 race where all the major teams had not promised
    their support.
    
    Remember the FISA/FOCA wars? Bernie seems to swap hats quite well
    ;->
    
    Paul

Eurosport (Sky) have signed a deal to beam EVERY round of the championship live
into your sitting room this season. So, Rupert M. does have his uses...

    re-1
    
    What about the people who have'nt got SKY ?
    
    Grant

    
    Hasn't everyone?
    
    Mark :^)
    

    Not while Murdoch has anything to do with it I haven't!!

Well I get Sky Sport cabled in for free here in Switzerland - if anyone wants
a full video of the proceedings (rather than the Beeb's half-hour highlights),
then I'm sure that we could work something out - drop me a line.

	TV Coverage
	-----------

	Read last week that FOCA (Bernie Ecclestone), who have effective 
	control of the television rights for GPs are talking about only
	selling the coverage to those TV companies who agree to show all
	of the races in their entirety. The sponsors, you can easily realise,
	aren't too pleased with the sketchy coverage that some companies
	are providing, ie the BBC for one, and putting the pressure on.

	I, for one, hope they succeed since I'm tired of the Beebs lack 
	lustre, never know what or when, attitude. Of course the 2 horse
	race nature of recent years hasn't helped.

	UK Grand Prixs
	--------------

	Isn't it time we in the UK had two races?. It is after all the major
	centre of F1. Non championship races tend to be a bit of a washout,
	what we need is a second championship race. When the GP of Europe
	was held in the UK the turnout was very good and I enjoyed these
	more than the British GP since they were less crowded.

	Italy already has two races (inc San Marino), as does France (Monaco),
	and indeed France used to have three when the Swiss GP was being run.
	Come on Bernie get and organise another proper one!.

	-John

The plural of Grand Prix is   Grands Prix,  or so my english teacher taught me
in 1962 ....

    John, do you know if (and when) the scottish GP, that Jackie Stewart
    is working on, is going to happen ?
    
    In any case I'd like to see more GP's at Brands Hatch. 

    Re -a few
    
    I can't believe you're serious that you'd prefer all GPs to be covered
    by a minority cable channel? Look at the uproar in W Germany last
    year when a cable company got the rights to Wimbledon and hardly
    anyone saw Becker & Graf winning. 
    
    Having seen Sky motorsport coverage on cable when I lived in Milton
    Keynes and the commentary etc was awful. Still we shall see - I'd
    plump for Murray & James :-)
    
    Paul

I agree that Sky's commentary (Andrew Marriot and John Watswrong), isn't as
good as the BBC's - I do miss Murray's faux pas's! However, it ain't bad - much
better than the rubbish you get covering most other sports on Eurovision.

RE: .174  The Swiss Grand Prix was always non-championship, rather like the
Daily Mail Race of Champions, so I guess the French only really get two races 
after all...!

    
    I'm sure the Swiss GP was in the championship at least once. Was
    it held at Dijon?
    
    Mark 

    Yep, Dijon. I was there in 1974 to watch the Peterson (Lotus) Lauda
    (Ferrari) battle. I think it was a championship event.

	In Response. The swiss GPs I remember were all championship 
	events. I know nothing of the Scottish GP but it seems logical
	to attach a country's name to it. Would it have to be run in 
	England though?.

	I wasn't suggesting that F1 should go satellite only, more that
	the major channel(s) should be persuaded to give 100% coverage.
	There is after all a great deal more air time available now than
	was the case say 10 years ago. I think the GP coverage comes pretty
	cheap to TV companies because it's recognised as a form of 
	advertising. Hence the BBC can afford not to use all they've
	paid for. If the BBC don't provide satisfaction, as far as
	the GP fraternity is concerned, then they're likely to seek out
	a deal elsewhere but there's no chance of going wholely to a
	satellite channel since this would defeat the object of the
	excercise inasmuch as there'd actually be less effective 
	coverage.

	-John

	PS Grand Prix = plural; Correct I imagine but I always say
	Grand Prixs and GPs.

	Re. TV coverage.

	If coverage of F1 was only via cable/satellite would not affect me,
	we get 15 channel cable over here :-), I think there could be a 
	counterpoint to this in reality.
	
	A lot of sponsors, although miffed at partial coverage, are said to
	be very unhappy at the prospect of Grand Prix coverage being limited
	to cable or satellite networks. It must be realised that the majority
	of viewers do not have access to one of these networks, although numbers
	are increasing, and the viewing figures for G.P's would be far less if
	"national networks" did not get chance to screen races.

	I think this all boils down to fact Bernie the "Bank" Ecclestone is 
	just after as much cash as possible, sell TV rights to the highest
	bidder", and his so called annoyance at TV companies only showing
	highlights is just a sham.

	The motor racing fan, as usual, could end up being the loser in yet 
	another wrangle over money in motor sport.

	Gordon

My mind gets fuzzy over time, however here goes:

The Swiss Grand Prix was held twice. I went to both of them. They were won by 
Regazzoni and Jarier (the only race he ever won). They were held at Dijon. They 
were non-championship - each team fielded one car (so no Lauda for Ferrari...).

The French Grand Prix was held at Dijon in 1974. It was also held there in later
years (it alternated with Paul-Ricard for a few years) after the loop 
around the back end had been added. I was there for a French grand Prix - I 
think that Arnoux won for Renault after a terrific scrap (wheel barging) 
during the last few laps - dangerous stuff.

    Very good memory ! You're right : 1974 was French GP. Swiss GP's
    were non championship events (Jarier never won a Championship GP).
    
    1979 French GP : Jabouille/Renault won. 2nd was Villeneuve/Ferrari,
    3rd Arnoux/Renault. The last few laps will remain a collector piece.
    I have it on tape.

    For those with a craving for the information, this week's Autosport
    has an explanation of the structure of the FIA together with an
    organisation chart. There are an awful lot of TLAs and one in
    particular crops up in all the key places no prizes for guessing
    - JMB.
    
    Other bits about Prost being fastest at Estoril and mega accidents
    for Boutsen and Larini. There are also strong rumours that the Porsche
    V12 will be running by Suzuka.
    
    Also - J-P van Rossem has been slagging off JMB in the Belgian press,
    with particular reference to his war record! Autosport reckons it
    can't publish because of English law, but as they were published
    in the French press maybe Patrick could give us the low-down?
    
    Paul

    
    Paul, check out not 446. It's all being discussed in there.
    
    Mark

    QUESTION:
    
    	Does anybody know if Senna has bowed and scraped to fisa or is
    he driving in cart this coming season. 
    
    Don't let him near a Kart I can't afford to keep buying new Karts and
    parts.

	Re .-1 Don't know but tomorrows the deadline. My guess is that
	some lucky driver is going to get a plum seat.

	-John

Here are the results from all the championship F1 races in 'Switzerland'.  
As you can see the 1982 race was really in France, but if I remember 
correctly, they called it the Swiss GP because at that time FISA wouldn't 
let a country host more than 1 GP per year, expect for the US, Italy, 
England.....

The winner is on the first line of each entry with the GP win number after 
his name.  The other point finishers follow on the next line.  In the early 
races only the top 5 scored points, along with 1 point for fastest lap.

Jun 4, 1950  Bremgarten, Switzerland	 Farina	 2    Alfa Romeo 158
(Fagioli, Rosier, Bhanuban, Bonetto)

May 27, 1951 Bremgarten, Switzerland	 Fangio	 4    Alfa Romeo 159
(Taruffi, Farina, Senesi, de Graffenried)

May 18, 1952 Bremgarten, Switzerland	 Taruffi 1    Ferrari 500F2
(Fischer, Behra, Wharton, Brown)

Aug 23, 1953 Bremgarten, Switzerland	 Ascari	 13   Ferrari 500F2
(Villoresi, Gonzalez, Hawthorn, Galvez)

Aug 23, 1954 Bremgarten, Switzerland	 Fangio	 12   Mercedes W196
(Gonzalez, Herrmann, Mieres, Montovani)

Aug 29, 1982 Dijon-Prenois, Switzerland	 Rosberg 1    Williams-Ford FW08/5
(Prost, Lauda, Piquet, Patrese, de Angelis)

    Latest on the Will He? Won't He? Story.
    
    On the radio this am McLaren were quoted as having no comment on
    what Ayrton's upto, and will not make a statement until the launch
    of the new car next week. Meanwhile the list of nominated drivers
    is due out later today.
    
    Can we bear the suspense!!!!
    
    Paul

    My my, we are all quiet about Friday's debacle aren't we! Could
    it be that some of us fair minded people are sulking that Ayrton
    will be racing after all :-)
    
    Anyway, who else read the letters? Does anybody really call Senna's
    an apology? Looked more like a statement of fact to me. I thought
    JMB's "best wishes for 1990 etc etc" was a bit tecno yawn inducing
    tho'.
    
    Still, at least we can now get down to real racing. Three weeks
    today you'll be analysing the US GP. Anybody know if I can get into
    Notes from DEC Phoenix so I can join in? Gloat, gloat!!
    
    Paul

    
    Ah, I deleted the note I had put in because I've just read VNS and
    that gave the content of Senna's letter.
    
    Certainly, by comparison with the ACOs enforced bowing and scraping
    Senna got off lightly, but he had to swallow a large amount of his
    prodigous pride to say he was wrong. Maybe this is the new side
    of Senna, a bit more prepared to give and take than blithely carry
    on like a bull in a china shop.
    
    Hopefully, this more level headed approach will be seen in Senna's
    driving and we'll see more of his talent this year than of his
    aggression.
    
    Mark 

	I, for one, didn't hear anything on Friday. Saturday's paper	
	said that initially FISA announced that no application had been
	received from Senna, but that after some hectic discussions the
	existance of the letter transpired.

	Anyway the outcome is that Senna gets his license and also the
	six months suspended ban has been lifted. As someone else said
	it's time to get back to the racing.

	-John

   I read on CEEFAX at the weekend that Senna's apology was so late that
   FISA had already issued the competitors list without his name.

   They had to re-issue the list after his apology arrived. 

   Let's hope this marks the end of the bickering and the start of the
   racing.

    Getting back to the racing, but not leaving the subject of Senna,
    his on-track behavior this year will see an entirely different context.
    
    The past two years the only guy who had the speed to challenge him,
    Prost, was the kind of driver to avoid contact at all cost (until
    Suzuka, anyway).  
    
    This year I think Senna's speed advantage will be diminished; and
    his teammate is much more combative.  So, we've got a scenario where
    for the first time since he joined McLaren Senna'll have people
    attempting to drive alongside him, maybe even pass him.
    
    It'll be interesting to see how he reacts.  If he reacts like he
    did during those infrequent times Prost challenged him, my money
    sez his 6 month suspended ban will be enforced, and he will indeed
    end up being banned -  but for what he does not what he says...
    
    Btw, I don't agree with the analogy between Senna and Villeneuve.
    Villeneuve drove very hard, but I never saw him drive dirty.
    
    MrT

Yes, the original list published Friday lunchtime, had the name of Dr. Jonathon
Palmer alongside Berger. McLaren and Marlboro showed this to Senna - who 
up until then had decided to call FISA's bluff, did some frantic working behind
the scenes (Senna was thinking about pulling out of Formula 1 all together), 
and got things sorted out in the afternoon - after which a new list was issued.

On the subject of Senna, my view of him falls between the two opposing camps.
He is a tremendously quick driver, about that there is no doubt, and very
confident in himself. I believe that, over the past two seasons, he has become
so confident in his own abilities (and immortality), that there is no doubt
in his mind that he is the best driver in the world. For this reason 
- self-confidence which transgresses anything that you or I can understand, he 
tries manoeuvres which other drivers would not make themselves - and in fact 
regard as dangerous. I do not think that he is implictly "dirty" - though the
results can be the same.

I hope that Senna can be brought back to earth, so to speak, because without
him Formula 1 is much poorer - he is great to watch, and a tremendous
competitor!

I hope that the McHonda advantage has been reduced - wouldn't it be greate
to see 3 or 4 teams competing on nearly equal terms (OK then - 2 would be an 
improvement!).

I think that Berger will be nearly as quick as Senna on occasion; however he
will never be very successful, because he is too hard on his cars. I think
that he will make an excellent number 2 however.

Steve

    From today's papers & last night's Ceefax.....
    
    McLaren have cancelled the press launch of their new car after JMB
    made veiled threats about "watching what Senna says". Seems Chairman
    Ron is being tactful for once. However, it does seem a bit 1984ish.
    Interestingly, Lendl is quoted this morning is saying that the new
    ATP Tour is censoring him 'cos he's not allowed to comment on umpires'
    decisions to the press! Plus ca change...... ;->
    
    Anyway, its seems the other large gallic (I think) gentleman, Ms
    Van Rossem is pulling out of F1 'cos of the Porsche thing. He stated
    he hasn't paid for JJ & Stephan's Super Licences and had no intention
    of putting anymore money into GP racing. 
    
    If this is true, can anybody remember who gets to avoid pre-qualifying?
    Or were Onyx doing that anyway?
    
    Paul
    

    >self-confidence which transgresses anything that you or I can 
    >understand... he tries manoevres which other drivers would not
    >make themselves... I do not think he is implicitly "dirty"
    
    That's the rub on Senna.  I think your description is partially
    correct and otherwise very wrong: Senna's multiple car backmarker
    passes, or going at full clip into rain spray are good examples of 
    where you're theory works; Senna chopping Prost to the right some
    50 feet nearly into a wall at the beginning of a race, or squeezing
    Berger off the course from behind at Rio is where the theory's wrong.
    
    With the latter it isn't a matter of Senna having a better idea,
    a higher understanding or more courage; it's a matter of him simply
    trying to intimidate by dangerously flouting driving rules for ill-
    gotten advantage.
    
    MrT

Re: .-1

I guess you've got a point here - I was feeling particularly charitable
yesterday. However, I do think that F1 would be much poorer without him.

:-)

Steve

    I've been waiting (and hoping) that someone would bring up Rio.
    As I recall, Berger said in a post-race interview: (paraphrase)
    "Senna expects other drivers to get out of his way, but that doesn't
    work with me."  Another interesting driver pairing for McLaren.
    
    Autoweek, after twice reporting that Ferrari has 740 hp for 1990,
    now says it's actually 682 hp.  So Ferrari has 2 good drivers, a 
    good chassis, and a 20-30 hp disadvantage, Deja vu.
    
    Don 

    This mornings L'Equipe has a photo of Senna in the new McLaren MP4/5B
    testing at Silverstone. Tim Wright is quoted as saying that three cars
    will be completed in time for Phoenix.
    
    Prost has set the fastest times in the tyre testing at Estoril. He is
    still using the 640, while Mansell is in the 641. 
    
    Finally, Bernie Ecclestone is supposed to be meeting J-P Van Rossem to
    clarify whether Onyx will or will not race. 
    
    Ken

	Yesterday's Independant reported that Senna crashed the MacLaren 
	during that test, and badly damaged the under body.

	As you mean to go on ...


	Graham 

    Prognostications for 1990 season?
    
    I hope that my sentiment is not getting in the way of clarity, 
    but I anticipate a 1,2,3,4 as follows:
    
    	1.	Prost
    
    	2.	Berger
    
    	3.	Nannini
    
    	4.	Mansell
    
    
    	George Frost

    Re last few
    
    I really think we are all getting a bit hard on Senna. The accident
    at Silverstone was in a brand new car and according to Autosport
    (who I'd believe in front of the Independent!) was caused by
    instability due to new aerodynamics under the car.
    
    As far as his belief in God is concerned, I may be mistaken but
    I have not seen any articles where Senna  talks about his faith
    in the sort of detail quoted here. All the "unharmable" quotes seem
    to come second hand. While not being a christian myself, I do know
    that people of that persuasion believe that someone is watching
    over them and that if anything happens to them they inherit the
    life eternal. That could be interpreted by people who are less than
    charitable in the way Senna has been painted.
    
    Accident prone? Yes he has had a few scrapes, but so has Berger
    and one person's Senna at Suzuka is another person's Mansell in
    Hungary (where Senna was nearly up the back of Johansson with nowhere
    to go). None of us has driven an F1 car in a race. The tolerances
    are fine in the extreme and accidents are bound to happen between
    two committed chargers. I don't think we are *really* qualified
    to comment on Senna's driving ability.
    
    What is clear from JMBs latest is that he has a real thing against
    Senna and McLaren, and I hope he gets his chain pulled by the next
    plenary meeting.
    
    Anyway, after that little lot, I'm really looking forward to flying
    out to Phoenix. I know the circuit is a bit naff, but its good that
    the real stuff will be starting again soon. As I said a few notes
    ago, my support will be for Leyton House and Lotus, but I realise
    they aren't serious prospects for a win so out of the front 4 I
    will be cheering for Senna despite my love of Ferrari's. Mansell
    whinges too much (maybe its just the accent ;-) ) and I never have
    liked Le Prof too much.
    
    My joint entry for Mr Dawson's competition (with my wife) will be
    on its way next week.
    
    Paul

	My reference in .205 doesn't have anything to do with Senna,
	far more serious than that. If the new car misbehaves in a
	bad way then that is important. McLaren could always use the
	old one though.

	-John (who thinks cars are far more significant than drivers)

    re: Frost's prediction
    
    WOW !!  No Senna in the top four?!  You know something we don't?!
    
    re: Senna
    
    He *does* make it more entertaining, and it would've been a crime
    not to've had him in the series this year.  Woulda cheapened whatever
    happened.  Hopefully he'll shut up and fly right and be a well-behaved
    egomaniac like his colleauges.
    
    Also, is it true that his probabation (i.e., "suspended ban") is
    indeed still in effect?  That's important, given that he's back
    to badmouthing JMB in the press this week... 
    
    My call for this year:  1. Senna
    			    2. Mansell
                            3. Prost
    		            4. Berger
                            5. Patrese
                            6. Nannini
                                     
    I'm not saying I like it, but I wanna win the prize...
    
    MrT

RE: Note 837.207      YUPPY::PATEMAN 
    
>    My joint entry for Mr Dawson's competition (with my wife) will be
>    on its way next week.
    
    But I've already got a wife ; what would I need with another?! Thanks,
    but I'll stick with the F1 entry :-)
    
    >    As far as his belief in God is concerned, I may be mistaken but
>    I have not seen any articles where Senna  talks about his faith
>    in the sort of detail quoted here. All the "unharmable" quotes seem
>    to come second hand. While not being a christian myself, I do know
>    that people of that persuasion believe that someone is watching
>    over them and that if anything happens to them they inherit the
>    life eternal. That could be interpreted by people who are less than
>    charitable in the way Senna has been painted.
    
    There was an interview in MN a while ago about Senna and this belief of
    his. The guy is truly dedicated and seems to spend most of the time
    when not in a racing car with a bible in his hand. This "peace within
    himself" allows him to concentrate to such a degree, particularly in
    qualifying, that he can actually "project" his thinking 0.1s ahead of
    the car (ie he can start to correct a situation as it is starting
    rather than after it has developed. This accounts for his banzai
    qualifying laps. He admits it is much more difficult to achieve in a
    race but he has ABSOLUTE conviction about his ability and capability
    and an ABSOUTE desire to WIN (not just finish a good "tactical" second
    as Prost is willing to do) that borders upon fanaticism.
    
    BTW, Mansell reckons Ferrari have put in an excellent engineering
    effort (particularly on the engine) over the winter and that they will
    exceed 700bhp by August. I don't know how this compares with the Honda
    but the feeling seems to be that they are a lot closer at the start of
    this season than they were at the start of last season and that can
    only be good!
    
    Colin
    
    

    I have read a long interview of Senna at home (his, near Sao Paulo) 
    this winter (in Sport Auto). The guy talks a lot about his family, 
    parents, nephews, his new farm, his new appartment, ... for a few 
    pages with photos, ... Only at the end of the article the reporter 
    switches to racing for a while. Then (that's the only place he 
    mentions it) Senna says something like : before I sit in the car for 
    a race or a qualifying session I read a few pages of the Bible. 

    re last two
    
    Just to clarify my position - I have no issue with Senna's on the
    record statements about his beliefs, they are fairly widely documented.
    What I haven't seen in print anywhere is the "I am invincible -
    cannot be killed" stuff. I've only seen that from Prost and Mansell
    who of course have a vested interest in making Senna look at odds
    with the world.
    
    I also read an interview about his qualifying laps and placing his
    mind in front of the car, but don't remember anything about this
    being due to God. He stated in the interview I read that it was
    impossible to do this in a race because there was so much else going
    on. I'm certainly looking forward to seeing him on a hot one in
    Phoenix.
    
    As for always winning, well, I'd be surprised if many sports people
    at the very top don't go into competition convinced they are going
    to win. Thats why we haven't had any British winners recently in
    most sports ;->
    
    To me, the comments from Our Nige about settling for second and
    points rather than going for a win indicate a lessening of commitment,
    but then I've always liked chargers like Peterson, Villeneuve etc,
    rather than accountants like Piquet!
    
    However, Senna could do with lightening up a little, my wife is
    sending him a thirtieth birthday card and while we were looking
    around for one we saw a driving test card as follows:
    
    Front - Glad to hear you've got your licence
    
    Inside - That means one more nut on the road.
                                    
    
    We did wonder what his reaction would have been!
    
    Still, I reckon he'll win the championship this year and around
    5 or 6 races in the process.
    
    12 days and counting!!
    
    Paul

    Just received latest issue of DECsell magazine. Page 3 is a list
    of the major competitive wins in european countries. Under Belgium
    I found something like :
                                                                      
    Company	Order	Segment		Competition	Sales rep
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    Moneytron	150K$	Econometrics	SUN Sparcstation  xxxxxx
    
    Now I wish someone from Belgium tell us more about Moneytron. In
    case they dont drop Onyx this year, maybe we could have some insight
    into the team ...

    This week's titbits:
    
    Alex Caffi will miss the first two races due to a cycling accident,
    possible replacements Brundle & Schneider
    
    Estoril Testing Times  (Senna's '89 pole - 1:15.47)
    
    Mansell (F641)	1:13.88
    Prost (F640)	1:14.52
    Patrese		1:15.00
    Boutsen		1:15.04
    Piquet		1:17.39
    Caffi		1:17.44
    Alboreto		1:17.46
    Warwick		1:18.12
    Nannini		1:18.29
    Donnelly		1:22.44
    
    The new McLaren MP4/5B is taller than last years due to new regs
    and Gerhard's legs! Also has taller air box, narrower sidepods,
    longer rear undertray (Patrick Head is quoted as saying Williams
    get 35% of their downforce from the undertray!) with 5 arches.
    
    They have also indicated that they will be running a *new* prototype
    for the V12. Is this the end of the line for the MP4?
    
    Looks bleak for Brabham. Still no buyers because of the legal bits
    pending.
    
    Thats the lot.
    
    Paul

    I thought Ferrari was already reporting well over 700 horses?
    Different state of tune? 
    
    I also thought there'd be NO prequalifying this year, a bit of good
    news if true.
    
    As an American, my bullsheet antennae go out when someone starts
    bragging to the media about how being very holy; maybe cuz it's
    a common practice of politicians, crooks awaiting sentencing and,
    yes, successful athletes.  
    
    Whatever Senna's proclivities, the linkage he insists be drawn between
    his theism and his responsibilities as a driver are worrying - and
    so is his driving.  When he starts talking about his special
    relationship with God I'm reminded of the flap here when it was
    found that President Reagan was sitting down each weekend with a
    number of television preachers and talking enthusiastically about
    one could interpret the Bible's scenario for Rapture in terms of
    the mideast conflict and nuclear war...   :^)
    
    As for other drivers being crash prone, well, two of Berger's crashes 
    don't really count.   One had to do with a part breaking (Imola), the 
    other with Senna crashing into him from behind (Rio).
    
    On the feiry Imola crash, Mansell criticized Berger a bit for giving
    up too early.  Apparently Berger told his team that when he lost
    control he "got very small" in the cockpit (doubled over).  Mansell
    hinted that had he fought the car into a slide or spin the crash
    might well have not been so serious.
                                             
    MrT

    re .212
    
    Paul, I don't think Mansell's comment about finishing second when the
    situation "requires" it is a loss of motivation - rather a clear,
    well-reasoned out strategy for winnning the CHAMPIONSHIP rather than
    just the race. Others, besides himself and Prost, have used this tactic
    to great effect in the past and it marks the emergence of a "great"
    rather than just a "good" driver. Senna has an incredible natural flair
    but his lack of this type of approach indicates an overall
    inconsistency in his tactics. You cannot control every event purely by
    your own talent - there has to be an element of "luck" in it as well.
    This is partly reflected in such things as mechanical failures
    unrelated to the driver or his style and partly through the driver
    "pushing" the car too hard or being in a situation which puts up the
    odds against him. Mansell and Prost are using the "softly softly"
    approach while Senna will continue to go balls out. Both approaches
    have their merits and disadvantages - two years ago, Senna's won him
    the title but last year it lost him it. There is no doubt, however,
    that to win you must first finish and to win the championship you must
    at least score in the minimum 11 rounds (or else win 9 races).
    
    	I'm going to change my prediction this year as I feel Mansell has
    his best (and last?) chance and will grab it with both hands.
    
    Re -1, Mr T, I read recently that Honda are reputedly starting the
    season with 670bhp so the Ferrari sounds as if it is up there, too. In
    contrast, Arrows will start the season with Cosworth Harts (until the
    Porsches come along) which are expected to give 620/625bhp!
    
    	Latest news is that Onyx are still evaluating various sales options
    but no decision yet made. Van Rossem continues to hold 60% interest in
    the cars and Marlborough's support will almost certainly allow the team
    to compete in Phoenix. Brabham, meanwhile, are close to agreement on
    a deal between Middlebridge (the interested buyer), Peter Windsor (who
    thought he had previously gained control of the company and has brought 
    litigation against it) and Bent Widmer (acting on behalf of the Swiss
    banking Corporation and MRD owner Joachim Leuthi, still languishing in
    a Swiss jail!).
    
    	EuroBrum will stick with Judd power as the Neotech V12 will not be
    ready for the early GPs.
    
    	The same 8 teams as last year will carry TV cameras on board -
    McLaren, Ferrari, Williams, Benetton, Lotus, March, Brabham and Arrows
    - but each car will carry both a forward and rearward facing camera and
    two teams will carry them at each race. Williams will carry them at
    Phoenix, Monaco, Ricard and Adelaide but the rest of the allocation has
    yet to be decided.
    
    	Senna damages the new MP4/B5 at Silverstone earlier in the week
    while shaking it down and giving himself the first run in a F1 car
    since last November!!
    
    	As previously stated, Mansell and Prost topped the lists at
    Goodyear tyre tests at Estoril last week. McLaren were not there.
    
    Colin

    Colin,
    
    I guess we'll agree to differ. My preference would be for the old
    go for it Mansell rather than an accountant hunting the championship.
    
    It will be interesting to see if he sticks with it in the heat of
    battle. 
    
    My personal "greats" (as I said) are of the balls out variety, but
    I can see why others prefer the softly softly brigade. It would
    be boring if we all supported the same drivers.
    
    I see on Vogon that Pirro is out for the first race too after getting
    hepatitis being replaced by Morbidelli(?) and that Brundle is favourite
    to fill Caffi's seat.
    
    As far as Mansell and the title is concerned, I think it might be
    like Lendl & Wimbledon, something he's destined not to win. I hope
    to be proved wrong, but my vote goes for the Brazilian Bruiser.
    
    Paul

    Sergio Rinland going to Tyrell gives that team a very fine engineering
    staff.  Postlethwaite needs no intro.  Rinland has designed at least 2
    very good cars -- the one Dallara has run for two seasons and the most
    recent Brabham.  Add the Honda V-10 and Alesi and there's a hope for 
    next year.
    
    Anyone know why Ferrari continues to run the 640?  The 641 seems
    significantly faster.  Or did the 641's times come on quallies vs
    race rubber?
    
    Don

	Speed can be deceptive. I well remember watching at Stowe
	Corner, Silverstone a British Grand Prix and noticing in
	particular the difference in style between Prost and Senna.

	This was when Senna was in the Lotus. He looked incredibly
	fast around this corner, even applying throttle at the apex
	to increase exit speed, and taking a very aggressive line.
	Prost in comparison was drifting around without fuss or
	effort. They were effectively equally matched for speed
	despite the differing styles. The Lotus also was as quick
	as the McLaren on this fast circuit, and if I remember
	correctly pole went in any case to Rosberg's Williams.

	In the race Senna grabbed the lead, disputed by Rosberg until
	his car failed. From then on it was Prost in pursuit, coming
	back from half a lap down to sit on Senna's tail, but Senna
	wouldn't let him past. Eventually Senna ran out of fuel with
	a lap to go.

	This seems to sum it up, Senna would not give away the lead
	and settle for second, Prost was going just as fast as his
	fuel would let him, and also probably got more from it on
	account his smoother style. Senna looked quickest but Prost
	was quickest.

	It would however have been a dull race if it hadn't been for
	these 'finer points' or if Senna had just been going for a
	place. Room for both types I fancy.

	-John

    John, 
    
    what's wrong with opening the throttle at the apex point ? In slow,
    medium and fast curves you actually open the throttle.
    
    turbo engines were a little bit tricky to handle and each driver
    had his particular touch.
    
    Cheers,           Patrick

Softly, softly?  The last time  Mansell went racing was at Adelaide - he drove
like a man possessed! If he'd used his brain there the he would have won
easily!

Steve

P.S. I do think that Mansell is the best overall driver - perhaps not the best
in any individual department (speed, finesse, courage, race-craft etc. etc.)
- but overall is the best. I wonder if he's going to end up like Stirling Moss;
well respected - but never with a title to show for it...?

    Here's Nigel Roebuck's predictions for 90, taken from the Feb 26
    Autoweek:
    
    ************************************************************************  
    
    Senna	3-1	Quickest, if not the most composed; has Honda
    
    Prost	5-1	Technically best, but will Ferrari have power?
    
    Berger	7-1	Another McLaren race winner, still a little rough
                        
    Mansell	8-1	Probably as quick as Sena, but new pressures
    
    Patrese	10-1	Not an absolute ace, but always thereabouts
    
    Piquet	12-1	Talents still there, but is motivation?
    
    Boutsen	20-1	Consistent, smooth, but has he the raw pace?
    
    Nannini	20-1	Old-fashioned racer, not quite from the top flight
                                                                   
    Warwick	20-1	Still motivated, still highly underrated
    
    Alesi	20-1	Tomorrow's superstar; needs more than a Cosworth    
    
    **************************************************************************
    
    Now, I'm kinda shocked at his rating Prost SO much better than Mansell.
    Also, he apparently has a high opinion of Benetton's car if he has
    Piquet so high.  Personally I like Donnelly better than Warwick
    in the Lotus-Lambo.  
    
    Also, he doesn't seem to think much of Larousse's chances, but aren't
    they running a Lambo too?  What *is* the diff, if any, between the
    Lambos in Lotus vs Larousse?
                          
    True poor Pierluigi Martini is stuck for the year with a DFR Cosworth,
    but Bernard has a Lambo and a decent team.  I like him, and from
    what I hear Suzuki, once settled, will establish himself as the
    first good Japanese driver.  I'm glad to see Lehto up, and I think
    Grouillard deserved a better ride...
    
    MrT
    

    Well, I'm going to change my competition prediction and go for Mansell
    this year! If he doesn't get the title very soon I think he's going to
    be off. He is more motivated than ever to achieve it and with Prost as
    his teammate I think Ferrari have their best chance for many years to
    knock Senna and McLaren off their cosy little pedestal. I hope so!
    
    Colin

    The 1990 championship rules have been published. Apart from the
    expected changes (minimum size, weight, ...) the pre-qualification
    system now includes the 34 car limit :
    
    - 26 cars can race
    - 26 cars are invited to compete (based on previous year results)
    - if less than 34 but more than 30 cars present for the GP, the 1st 
      practice session (morning of the 1st day) will be used to reduce the
      number of competitors to 30 (only 30 cars can be on the track at 
      any time)
    - if 34 cars or more show up for the GP then the 1989 system will
      be used : 1 hour of pre-qualifications between 8 and 9am on the
      1st day. The potential runners are : Coloni (1), Osella (1), Eurobrun
      (2), Espo-Larrousse (2), Life (1).
    
    Please note that the 1st two GP's will see less than 34 cars (Brabham
    will only appear at Imola, Life ?)

	According to reports in the press at the weekend the Brabham
	team has been 'saved' ie bought out. The new owner is a Japanese
	company called Middlebridge (I think).

	One report said that this was independant of Onyx, the later
	said that Onyx too has been bought by the same company and that
	the two will be merged (perhaps). The architect of the deal was
	Bernie Ecclestone.

	There will be no 'Brabhams' at the first too races, but there
	will be 3 'Onyxes'.

	Re. .220.

	Patrick,

	Where do I say that there was anything wrong with opening the
	throttle in a corner?.

	-John

	Got a copy of Motoring News today to read the F1 preview. Every
	time I get a MN it seems to have less content and a higher price.
	
	Anyway they say (but aren't terribly sure) that the Brabham/Onyx
	merger has failed after all. They also say that two Brabhams were
	rushed off to Pheonix yesterday which suggests that the merger is
	definitely off. Teams are fined heavily for failing to compete, but
	if there was to be a merger then the Onyx cars would have sufficed
	but now it looks as if Brabham are intent on continuing.

	Pirro has hepatitus and will miss first two races. The new Lambo
	engine has serious oil problems and is failing badly both in the
	Lotus and the Lola. Tyrell have switched to Pirelli tyres after
	nearly 20 years on Goodyear.

	I think 90 is going to be a very close contest between the top
	teams ie. McLaren, Ferrari and Williams. Benetton must be next in
	the pecking order, one hopes Lotus will come good and wonders
	whether Tyrell and Minardi might prosper on demon Pirellis.

	Anyway I'm going to go for Williams coming out on top in the end,
	thanks to their speed and consistency whilst the McLarens/Ferraris
	are tripping over each other.

		1. Patrese
		2. Senna
		3. Prost
		4. Boutsen
		5. Mansell
		6. Berger

	-John

    Too bad about the problems with the lambos, hope it's a minor glitch
    and not a fundamental design flaw cuz the field needs Lotus and
    Larousse to be fast to keep the fast part of the field deep.  
    
    MrT

    Would a kind soul keep us posted on what is going on? I'm in the US,
    which means that Phoenix will be shown only to those who have cable TV,
    and at that, a taped version....
    
    Thanks,
    
    JP

It appears that the BBC are NOT showing the race live on Sunday. Is it on
SKY does anyone know? If so, are there any bars etc around here with TVs
(American style) that show SKY? 

Colin.

Simpson's Phoenix awards:

Star of the day:

Brabham and Modena for an outstanding fifth place - from mothballs to a
strong finish in 4 days. My only hope is that they are NOT rewarded with
the threatened Yamaha engine - they need it like a hole in the head.


For services rather less than the call of duty:

Senna's refusal to shake Prost's hand and bury the hatchet. I thought, that at
the very least, he would have turned the other cheek :-)


For drives:

Alesi and Senna - superb. Maybe Gerhard can pick up a few tips on how to
stay away from kerbs and barriers?

For cheek:

Alesi retaking Senna immediately after being passed - credit to Senna for
not "chopping".


For spectacle:

Mansell's fiery exit - beautifully controlled spin; leaving just enough forward
momentum to roll gracefully off the course.


For illiteracy:

ESPN or Sky channel (not sure which). "Wiliams" and "Tyrell" prominently 
displayed on the start grid line up.

	I've always found the fist race of the season the most 
	interesting, to see how things have changed after a winters
	development.

	However, this year was different. What an absolutely, bloody
	awful circuit Phoenix is. No wonder nobody bothered to go there.
	There are good, indeed very good, circuits in the US, but F1 
	always has to go to some concrete horror.

	Only real interest was the emergence of Pirelli tyres as something
	other than an embarassment to their users and the confirmation of
	Alesi as a top rank driver.

	If you thought Ferrari did badly look at Lotus. Outqualified by
	Lola, one failed to even get started and the other petered out
	in no time.

	BBC tele coverage was duff too.

	-John

	PS. Mansell did not neatly park off the circuit, quite the contrary.
	The car was off the circuit but he brought it back on and left it
	there, quite close to the racing line too.

	

    Is the fist race the one where somebody bops somebody for carving
    them up?
    
    Steve

	Well I saw Phoenix live, with English/Dutch/English/Dutch commentary !
	courtesy of Eurosport. I must agree the circuit is bloody awfull, I
	don't see why they can't race at a 'proper' circuit if they can't
	find a suitable street one.
	
	It looked pretty much like a race of attrition more than anything else.
	I did enjoy Alesi's re-taking manouvre on Senna though, very cheeky !

	Re. Mansell. I don't think he had a lot to do with the way the car 
	spun or parked after his engine blew. With that amount of oil being
	chucked onto your rear wheels at that speed it's up to fate rather
	than the driver.

	Gordon

    TF1 are improving their coverage. They still have their mobile reporter
    who runs from one team to the other to find out what's going on.
    This time he went to the Ferrari team and looked over the shoulder
    of the "computer" man : nothing wrong with Prost's car (smoking
    badly) oil pressure OK both in the engine and in the box, until
    .... no gearchange. 
    
    Then he grabbed Alain who said : from the beginning the gearchange
    was lousy and slow. And it became slower and slower until nothing
    happened. Apparently Nigel's problem was not with the gearbox but
    with the engine.
    
    After the Foitek crash (Brabham lost in the middle of a straight)
    followed by Grouillard's stop the same reporter managed to get Olivier
    and the dialog was something like : what's wrong ? nothing until
    Foitek hit me. No other details. I dont want to draw early conclusions
    but if you remember the catastrophic 1988 F3000 season (especially
    at the Brands Hatch race) Foitek was involved in all (or most ?)
    accidents. He may not have lost his bad habits .... 

    TF1 missed the start of the race by about 10 minutes and so showed the
    whole thing on a 10 minute later action replay.
    
    TMC had it live!
    
    Peter

    Just a quick point , that track to my mind is a) bloody awful, b)
    bloody dangerous ( no run off areas, no room for mistakes). All in all
    the whole lot circuit is hazard. How can Fisa say thats ok and Le Mans
    in dangerous when its got run off areas and better than that its not
    enclosed in concrete. That must be safer for the driver. It would scare
    me witless seeing that wall coming up at any speed.
    

    America has, oh, maybe a dozen great road courses that could be
    used, but none of them are willing to give Bernie his obligatory
    millions dollar bribe; you need a city bureaucrat to do that, ergo,
    a street course.   
    
    I'm not that depressed about Ferrari, this and Monaco are the worst
    for them, and they showed rather well in the speed department despite
    being unable to program the new direct change gearbox.  But why
    oh why are the red cars so damned unreliable?  Is it forcing all
    those shifts using the old semiauto?
    
    I'm a bit let down by Williams laggardly showing.  I'd also hoped
    that maybe Benneton, somebody, ANYBODY, would step up to challenge
    McHonda this year.  It doesn't look like that'll be.
    
    Let's look at the bottom line:
    
    Pole: McHonda
    Fastest lap(s): McHonda
    Victory: McHonda
    
    Sound familiar?  And the way Berger was charging after his crash
    one wonders whether he'd have caught Alesi before the old Gerhard
    came out and he needlessly crashed solo on an uncomplicated 90 degree
    left hander.
    
    I think Alesi will do a lot this year, but that means seeing how
    many times he can finish 3rd, maybe even 2nd.  
    
    DeCeaseris' new etiquette was impressive.  When his tires started
    to go he did a nice job of letting the fast traffic through without
    incident.
    
    MrT

    View from the Track Side
    ------------------------
    
    Having sat in the grandstand at Phoenix I can assure you that the
    circuit *is* less than inspiring. However, the sound of the V8/V10/V12s
    charging round the streets is quite awe inspiring. As for the crowd,
    they were plentiful in the grandstands and very knowledgable about
    F1. They were not however from Phoenix! There were loadsa Americans
    from everywhere but Phoenix, loadsa Japs, a fair few europeans and
    quite a few Brits. Local TV in Phoenix did a good job promoting
    the race but as we toured round the rest of Arizona/New Mexico there
    was virtually nothing. Also the national channels said nothing about
    the race. It did clash with the big college basketball tournament
    tho'.
    
    We watched the tape delay coverage on ESPN in the evening and it
    was dreadful! It was good to get back to Murray! BTW we bumped into
    the great man in the pit lane and got an autograph, he confirmed
    that he'd bumped into a lot of Brits. The ESPN coverage was mock
    live so each time you came back after the interminable ad breaks
    the race had gone on by a few laps. The in car was good tho'.
    
    As for the action - Alesi was electrifying, seeing him come back
    into the start/finish section on the end of lap 1 left every body
    cheering. However, Senna's reeling in of him was equally relentless
    and had a real inevitability about it. The others to impress were
    Modena, Martini in practice, and Nakajap in the wet on Saturday.
    
    We got into the Paddock Club on Friday, courtesy of Leyton House
    and watched the practice from above the pits. The place was full
    of hangers on but you got a great view. We also got a very relaxed
    pit walkabout immmediately before the first practice session, much
    more interesting than 7 am at Silverstone!
    
    Just to prove they are human there were some laughs in the wet.
    A huge puddle formed in the pit lane and was surrounded by
    photographers looking for good shots. The Williams's and the Benettons
    made great efforts to get this mob as wet as possible.
    
    Anyway, I'd agree with Steve that most circuits in the US would
    be better than Phoenix, and I see from Autosport that there is doubt
    beyond next year because of lack of crowds. But street racing does
    have a certain kick to it. I'd disagree with a few back about the
    danger. The corners were well padded with tyres (ask Berger) 
    and there were run off areas (ask Warwick), plus the speeds are not 
    massive.
    
    The main lesson though was that my entry into Mr Dawson's competition
    had a major ommission in Alesi and Tyrell. 
    
    Roll on Brazil, and the Judd V10 for L/House in the summer.
    
    Paul
    
    
    PS - the Trans Am race was dire, all yellow lights, course cars
    and stop go penalties. Nowhere near as much fun as the BTCC!

>>    Modena, Martini in practice, and Nakajap in the wet on Saturday.
 				       ^^^^^^^

who is this person?

i've been following F1 for a number of years & i've not heard of him/her

?

...art

    Assuming you are serious.........
    
    Saturo Nakajima, well known small Japanese type person who carries
    lots of yen in sponsorship but still ends up lightest driver in
    the weight stakes.
    
    Paul

so your name for him was just racist/derogatory?

...art

    Lamborghini's president Emile Novaro has recently announced that
    the company will enter a full F1 car next season. Originally the
    daughter company, Lamborghini Engineering, announced that they were
    building a F1 car for a wealthy Mexican. It now appears that Lambo
    will run the challenge.
    
    One of the complaints most heard about Lamborghini vs Ferrari is
    that Lambo never raced. This is not true anymore (since last year
    when Larrousse got the Lambo V12 engine).
    
    There are speculations about "will Lamborghini support everybody
    or only 2 teams in 1991 ?". Heini Mader is currently retooling his
    workshop in Gland, Switzerland in order to offer engine maintenance
    services to the Lambo users. 

    The new Rocchi W12 engine has appeared in the LIFE RACING car driven
    by Gary Brabham in Phoenix. Did not prequalify (best lap in over 2 
    minutes).
    
    The Subaru-Coloni driven by Bertrand Gachot did not manage to get 
    pre-qulified either. Now, does anyone know which engine it used ?
    I have read several reports with conflicting results. Was it the
    traditional Cosworth or the Subaru-funded Motori Moderni (Carlo
    Chiti designed) flat-12 ?

    re .244
    
    Neither. If you read what I said you will see that I rated his driving
    highly in the rain. Also, he ran well in the race. The name is merely
    meant as a joke. I seem to recall it being used many times in the
    F1 topics around here. 
    
    I don't rate him particularly highly as a driver as he has been
    foisted on teams by Honda, rather than got there by talent. Aguri
    Suzuki looks a better bet, and performed very well in the Lola.
    
    If it offends you in some way - sorry, but most of the abuse directed
    at Senna offends me - but its called free speech. 
    
    Paul

>>    
>>    If it offends you in some way - sorry, but most of the abuse directed
>>    at Senna offends me - but its called free speech. 
 
comments about Senna were on his personality/driving style NOT the colour of 
his skin nor his ethnic origins.


if Nakajima was black (or any other driver) how would you address him then?
 
Niggajima????

>>The name is merely meant as a joke.  

I don't thing it's funny.
I hope you realise that not all dec employees are WASPs.


...art (who's not Japanese)

                               
    
    
    Is "Jap" offensive? Racist? or just accurate?  

    
    

  re .249: "or just accurate?" I can't believe I read *that*.

      Would it be "accurate" to make a joke about your name in which a
    syllable was replaced with a derogatory term describing your nationality?	 

      Company policy regarding racist or offensive remarks are quite clear. I
    find the term "Jap" in most contexts to be both offensive and racist, and
    quite clearly, so do some others in this conference. In this context, it is
    particularly offensive as it is being used to make a derogatory joke about
    the persons name. Therefore, whatever your own views, the term is offensive 
    by definition and should not be used in NOTES.
      .248 is quite correct in pointing out that this persons nationality or
    skin colour have nothing whatever to do with his driving ability. I would
    add that neither do his religion, sexual preferences, political affiliation
    or preferred colour of underwear. Stick to the subject and company policy
    please!

						John Gillings, Sydney CSC

	For a moment there I thought the notes files had got mixed up and I'd
	strayed into the backup file of EF90 !

	Right, has every one got this out of their system ? Let's get back to
	the topic in hand then and not raise the spectre of the F1 topic 
	becoming a rat hole on what is, or isn't racist.

	Gordon ( A Brit. who just enjoys motor racing )

    To try and close what I started.......
    
    As I said Mr Atwal - apologies if it offended you, it was not meant
    to offend anyone! I *do* object to being called racist for a very
    mild joke however. Having friends of all colours, creeds, races,
    religions *and* sexual preferences I feel the cap does not fit.
    
    That's my last word on that particular subject.
    
    On racing however, does anyone have any views out there on the
    revisions to Silverstone for '91. It looks like  someone has done
    a good job of strangling it by adding the extra corners. From memory
    these include tightening up Stowe, putting in a bus stop past Stowe
    and revising the pre-Woodcote "complex" yet again. Looks like another
    stop-go type circuit rather than a flowing design. Why can't designers
    show some flair to create more circuits like Spa and the Ostereichring?
    
    The cars are now far more drivable than in the point and shoot ground
    effect & turbo days so why can't we have circuits that exploit them
    rather than choke them.
    
    What do we reckon for Brazil? On home territory I find it hard to
    see Senna being beaten. Ferrari looked in dissarray at Phoenix and
    haven't had time to sort things thoroughly, and on a faster track
    the V8's won't be as much of a threat even with Pirellis. If Berger
    sticks to the track though he could be a threat.
    
    Comments?
    
    Paul

    Re.252
    
    >> Derek the Ex-scouse
    
    How can anybody be Ex-scouse?
                       ^^
    
    Once a scouser, always a scouser.
    
    Colin, a scouser!

I thought Jap was short for Japanese, like Brit is short for British.
I was not aware that Japanese or it's abreviations were offensive to
anyone. Can any Japanese out there shed some light on this?

Dave :-|

Brit is, when used by the British, a fairly light hearted appelation.

When used by a drunken American in a South Boston bar on St. Patrick's day it
is anything but friendly.

The safe approach to terms like these is to remember Cyranno's warning when 
somebody commented on his nose: it is OK to use a term or expresssion about
yourself, but not about others...

/. Ian .\

>>I thought Jap was short for Japanese, like Brit is short for British.

OK, what do 'Brits' call the French ?
and the Germans... for short eh?

in the offending note, other drivers were mentioned by name but NOT nationality

perhaps Jap is short for Japanese, but the way the term was used was unneccasary

most F1 fans know that Nakajima is Japanese just like they know that Senna is
Brazilian... so why was Nakajima pointed out as being Japanese?


...art

    
    Jap, Brit, Scot and others aren't offensive (at least not in the
    way I use them), they're just abbreviations. These are not meant 
    as racist comments. 
    
    If .250 thinks that my use of these phrases makes me racist, then
    I'll have to live with it.
    
     
     
    
      

>Note 837.258                  F1 Motor Racing 1990                    258 of 258
>most F1 fans know that Nakajima is Japanese just like they know that Senna is
>Brazilian... so why was Nakajima pointed out as being Japanese?
>...art

Perhaps the person did'nt know the J*P's name or perhaps unsure as to the 
corectt speeling. :-) 

What a load of horse. Can we get back on to the topic .....PLEASE

Dave

    Might I suggest -- in all sincerity -- that we start a new notes file
    on Formula One auto racing?
    
    Where does it end?  I have a friend who tells me that the terms "lady"
    and "Oriental" are highly insulting.  What next?  I'm ~half Polish,
    ~half Italian, with probably a little Sicilian, and perhaps a little
    Jewish blood, too.  I've been schooled in 2 religions and dabbled in
    several others.  I -- and most others human beings can find SOMETHING
    offensive in almost ANYTHING ANYONE says.
    
    While we're on this . . . I find it interesting there are so many
    Italians in F1 today -- about 12 or 13 at last count.  None of them
    seem likely to match the best of the last wave of French drivers, and
    now with Alesi and Bernard, there seems to be another bunch of good
    Frenchmen on the way.
    
    Before we got into the rodenthole, someone mentioned the Life W12.  Any
    more on that?  And what is the status of the NeoTech V12 from Austria.
    
    BRAZIL:  At Ferrari's press conference in Feb, either Prost or Fiorio
    said that Phoenix would not be a true indication of the 641's
    potential.  I'm looking forward to a good race at Rio.  
    
    Finally, the Ferrari auto trans. . . I wonder if they can successfully
    implement a 7-speed standard.  In order to achieve max hp, the team
    consciously decided to make their engine extremely "peaky." Motorsport
    reported that the power "band" was only 1000 rpm or less.  I wonder if
    that means that they can't simply swap out the automatic for a more
    conventional transmission.
    
    Don

    Re Life
    
    They seemed pretty shambolic in Phoenix. The car sounded awful and
    stopped out on the track after about 4 laps. I feel for Gary Brabham,
    he surely deserves better than this. They also appeared to have
    little sponsorship, the car being mostly plain red.
    
    Re Ferrari
    
    I understand that one of the main aims over the winter has been
    to reprogram the 'box to go down more than one gear at a time, but
    I don't think they had that working in Phoenix, where it should
    have been useful. Mansell always quotes Monaco as where it is useful
    to go from 6th to 2nd or whatever.
    
    Having said that, listening to the cars power away up the start
    straight the Ferrari gear change was very fast in comparison to
    most of the others. Berger commented out there that McHonda are
    looking at semi-auto boxes. Both Ferrari's were smokey from lap
    1 but after Berger at Estoril last year who knows :-)
    
    I saw a comment in Vogon news that the new Mexican/Italian team
    will have Lambo engines exclusively next year, anybody got any
    confirmation? I'd be surprised if Lotus with their GM links would
    be dropped so soon.
    
    BTW have you noticed how there don't seem to be any McLaren supporters
    at races? Ferrari, Williams, Lotus, Leyton House - even Ligier have
    fans who support them regardless of who's in the cockpit. In the
    case of McLaren it seems to be the drivers who get the support.
    Maybe the team is a bit faceless after all these years of looking
    like a Marlboro box. Lotus always seemed to still be Lotus even
    in the JPS days. It did grate when an American in the Phoenix stand
    referred to "the Camel car" tho' :-(
    
    As for all the Italian's at the moment, remember there are also
    a fair few Italian based teams - Ferrari, Minardi, Osella, Dallara,
    Life, Coloni so there is a fair bit of talent spotting and sponsorship
    down in sunny southern Europe. When you look at the teams you quickly
    realise that actually only 3 countries enter cars, GB, France and
    Italy. 
    
    I still reckon its Ayrton's race on Sunday.
    
    Paul

	Re a long way back.

	The report I read said that the Subaru thingy was running, if
	that's the right term, the new flat 12 engine.

	The W12 engine looks to be in need of some 'development'!.

	In Brazil I can't see Senna being beaten either. Berger may be
	as fast but there must be a great doubt over whether he can run
	fast enough, long enough to win. Ferrari must do better than in
	the US and indeed the circuit will be more to their liking but
	somehow I can't see them troubling McLaren, or both of them
	finishing. Both Williams should be filling spaces in the top six
	along perhaps with Piquet/Nannini and Alesi, whose Tyrell will
	obviously not be quite the force it was in Phoenix but still
	may have a chance of a place.


	-John

After so many comments, here are mine.

About the Phoenix Grand Prix...

Before the race Nigel Mansell gave an interview. Two of his statements were
really curious. The first was when he stated that Prost is in the Ferrari team,
because he (Mansell) made it possible. I thought that Prost was in the Ferrari
because he was taking no.1 with him and because of his value as a F1 driver.

The second was that they had done their homework during the winter and they
were (Ferrari) therefore competitive. The race showed clearly that the Ferraris
haven't changed much. They used to smoke. Now, they almost explode!!!:-)
(Good work from Mansell the way he stopped the burning beast!) But Prost should 
have stopped. His car was leaking oil. Actually the car-cam became so dirty
that we lost the nice views it was providing.  Something must be wrong with
Prost and Mansell's homework... 
    
Finnaly and when everybody is claiming that Senna is a danger to other 
drivers, a new "danger" joined the club. Alesi in his duel with Senna showed 
precisely that. When I was watching the overcrossings I was thinking that if 
Alesi were Prost, Senna would have been disqualified for dangerous driving ;-)  
In my opinion Alesi did a very good race and was nice to see him getting the
second place.                        
    
    Finnaly, I do value what McHonda represents in terms of technology.
    Their cars seem to belong to another class. And they keep expectations
    low. Not like some teams that are always stating how great they
    are going to be "next" year with the "new
    car/box/tyres/suspension/pilot/ad nausea"!!! 
    
RUI
    

    >When used by a drunken American in a South Boston bar on St. Patrick's
    >day (Brit) is anything but friendly.
    
    As one whose grandparents lived in South Boston and who therefore fit 
    this model of drunken Irishman I'm the perfect authority to assure you 
    that this is bad information.  Brit has zero perjorative meaning.
    None.  It's an entirely neutral word.  Like Jap, it's a familiar noun
    form, a verbal shorthand.
         
    Don't worry, I'm not objecting at all to the Irish Drunk stereotype
    (see p_name :^).
    
    As a pure bred Irishman I recognize that most cultural stereotypes
    have a strong basis in fact, including this particular one.  The
    same goes for Paul's unassailable usage of NakaJap - the only reason
    the guy's in F1 is cuz of his national identity, which explains why
    his  nationality is mentioned where others' aren't and also means it's 
    abundantly germaine as a subject.   
    
    As for Art-the-Inquisitor, if you wanna get after Pateman on a truly
    egregious charge ask him why he never accounts for the dominant
    McHonda ride he has when evaluating Senna's greatness as a driver :^) .
                                                                    
    Now *that* is a weighty subject in this file.
                           
    MrT

>>the only reason the guy's in F1 is cuz of his national identity

by this do you mean that all Japanese are F1 drivers
OR
all F1 drivers are Japanese



...Art-the-Inquisitor   :-)

    Thanks for the kind comments Steve ;->
    
    As to Ayrton and his McHonda, I restate my case - look at his
    performances in the Toleman and the Lotus. Also, the newly published
    book about him tells a tale of a try out in a rally car - and some
    pretty good preformances. I sincerely believe Senna would be at
    the top in any car, although I concede he wouldn't dominate in a
    less professional team than McHonda.
    
    I'd really like to see a fun race once a year when they reverse
    the tables and put the drivers of the top team in the cars of the
    bottom team etc. The thought of Senna and Berger in Lifes chasing
    Brabham and Langes in McHondas in fascinating! We can but dream!
    
    Hope you had a good St Paddy's day Steve, the sight of green beer
    in the States fair turned my stomach!
    
    Paul
    

    back a few:
    
    I think Mansell's comments about him 'allowing' Prost on the team had
    to do with the fact that Mansell was #1 at Ferrari and if Prost came on
    board, they would have to be joint #1.  Mansell could have refused to
    drop his status as #1 and that would have made getting Prost to join a
    bit tougher.
    
    Dave

	Quite frankly, anything that Mansell says is best disregarded.

	I think he functions best on the old 'Seen but not Heard'
	principle as used with children.

	John (not a Mansell fan by the way)

re .269:

So you don't rate Manbrit's charge until the ka-boooOOMM took him out?

Dave.

    On Mansell's utterances, I was surprised at the lack of reaction
    in here to what Nige said about Berger's feiry Rio crash.  You
    remember, where he stated that Gerhard admitted to "getting small"
    in the cockpit the moment the wing snapped and that he would stayed
    with it and gotten the car's speed down and had less of a crash.
    
    I was surprised to learn that the Berger's car was still steerable
    as he went off the track.  Based on the car hurling straight into
    the wall, I had assumed that there was no steering.  That reflects
    badly on Gerhard.
    
    Also, the only diff I see this year from last is the #2 McHonda being 
    crashed due to driver error instead of driven to a_obeisant second
    place finish by "le professeur"...
                                    
    re: the Lotus-Lambo-GM connection
    
    Actually, Lamorghini is owned by Chrysler, which probably explains
    why Lotus and Lambo are parting ways.  Right?
    
    MrT

    re .271
    
    Sorry, touch of brain fade, I mixed GM & Chrysler. Actually, Team
    Lotus is independant from the road car group, but the ties are pretty
    close. Maybe Lotus will try to reinstate the Honda connection with
    customer V10s if they do lose Lambo's.
    
    Other rumours this week -
    
    Caffi will be driving in Brazil, but probably in testing only as
    he's still not fully fit.
    
    Pirro will definately be missing tho'.
    
    David Brabham is a possibility to replace Foitek at Brabham after
    Brazil. Foitek's contract is for two races only and his dad has
    now bought Onyx so he looks a good bet for there next year. Brabham
    is currently teamed with Damon Hill in the Middlebridge F3000 team.
    Middlebridge are determined to take the Brabham team back to the
    top and are talking to Nissan among others about engine deals.
    
    McLaren are saying they will have a 5th contracted driver later
    this year to add to Senna, Berger, Palmer and McNish - ant guesses?
    
    DeCesaris is now the driver with most races without a win. Phoenix
    was his 136th start beating J-P Jarier who came so close quite a
    few times, particularly with a couple of races for Lotus I seem
    to remember.
    
    
    As for Berger, I used to rate him as highly as Prost/Mansell/Senna
    but now I'm not so sure, he does seem to have too many shunts with
    static objects like tyre barriers. He's definately quick but I think
    he might be a little over enthusiastic. I can't remember how old
    he is, but it's a bit like Mansell of about 4 years ago - lots of
    leading but few wins.
    
    Anybody out there take the Eurosport GP coverage - what's it like?
    
    
    Paul

    re .271
    
    MrT, 
    
    the no1 customer (in $ volume) of Lamborghini Engineering is ....
                                                                 
                                    GM
                                                     
    (confirmed by Daniele Audetto and Emile Novaro).
                
    On the exclusive use of the engine my translation reads : Lamborghini
    prepared vs 3rd party maintenance (Heini Mader). The Lambo/Lambo cars
    might well have a more developped version of the engine. Very much
    like Honda and Mugen (if they conclude the deal).

	The Brazillian Grand prix stutters onwards despite the problems
	in Brazil (As a result of 73% per month inflation the banks have 
	been closed etc. etc.). Various problems encountered include the
	delay of supply of Goodyear's tyres.

	Still unofficial practice did take place in wet conditions. The 
	first session saw  Donnelly fastest, followed by Mansell then
	Warwick!!!!. This Lotus blossom was short lived and the second
	unofficial practice saw a 123 of Senna, Mansell and Prost.

	-John

    re .272
    
    Come to think of it, GM has more reason to dislike Honda than they
    do Chrysler.                            
    
    I thought, on TV at least, that Alesi's car looked beautiful with
    so little sponsorship and such a pretty paint job.  Won't last long
    on *that* car, though.
             
    Go Ferrari, beat Ayrton on his home turf!
    
    MrT

    Look like your wish was granted.
    
    
    Yesterdays result.
    
    
    1. A.Prost         Ferrari
    2. G.Burger        Mclaren
    3. A.Senna         Mclaren
    4. N.Mansell       Ferrari
    
    I missed the race live ( recorded it though ) as I was out racing 
    all day but I understand that Mr Senna got his nose chopped off
    Mr. Nakawhatshisname ,that being the reason he could only manage 3rd.
    Life's tough at the top. 
    
    
    Garry

    I really don't know what to say. He had the race in his pocket,
    no problem, ... and ...    unbelievable SENNA does the most stupid
    thing !
    
    Prost's win is deserved. Really sorry for Boutsen destroying the
    front end of his Williams. He could have been a winner too !

    I really am bl**dy mad that we were not allowed to see the "normal"
    outcome of the race. "Normal" for me being Prost pulling back the 
    20 odd secs that Senna had 30 laps from the end, and then a one-on-one
    for the last 5 laps.
    
    All was spoilt by Senna who had his aileron run over by the left REAR
    wheel of the car he decided to take out on a corner.
    
    The guy is a nut. He had a good car, a healthy motor, an apparently
    well controlled race, the whole (so it appeared) public on his side,
    20 seconds of preparation time before the challenger etc., etc.,
    - and then he blows going in on the inside of a back marker who never 
    offered any kind of challenge, in fact probably never even saw him!
    
    The last is even more of a condemnation since, if true, Senna should
    have anticipated, after all he is considered by some to be the best.
    
    Apart from that the race was excellent, Boutsen doing an excellent
    job passing Berger and going after Senna until his pit stop.
    After a long delay in the pits, the coverage from his on-board
    camera showed a flash of him almost taking out a pit person, and 
    a stack of wheels!
    
    Coverage was excellent image wise but abysmal content wise.
    Tele Monte Carlo showed all.
    The on-site coverage showed one car for the first 20 laps - Senna's.
    Finally we were treated to one or two tables showing positions and 
    other information.
    
    A flash of Senna's "connerie", a flash of Boutsens bout in the pits,
    and then for me a very amusing podium session.
    
    Prost and Berger appeared and stood behind the podium. Senna took his
    place as far from Prost as was possible - extreme right of stage
    (as we saw it on Tele). Not a word was exchanged.
    Prost said one or two words to Berger and that was it.
    
    For my part it was a great race notwithstanding the disaapointments.
    The Williams showed up well, Ferrari seemed more than competitive,
    McLaren still competitive - three manufacturers in the last 6 places 
    and a very interesting points table for Immola.
    
    One last point, Prost gave an interview about the Phoenix performance
    (Ferrari's). His explanation was that a small oil resevoir (I did
    not catch what it was for) was leaking onto the embrayage (clutch). He
    said it was a very minor problem easily fixed by a sturdier container,
    and that it was overlooked as a source of problems.
    
    		George Frost 
    

    I am suitably munching humble pie as Senna tripped over Nakajima
    and handed the race to Prost on a platter. BBC's coverage was pretty
    dire thanks, I think, to the Brazilian director, although the highlights
    seemed badly edited. Therefore we couldn't tell whether Prost was
    catching or not, but I don't reckon he'd have got past Senna.
    
    As to blame, I'd reckon 70% Senna, 30% Nakajima. I'd have to check
    the video but I don't think Senna ever got more than half way
    alongside. As for the rest, Piquet looks rejuvenated but the Benetton
    hasn't got the legs, Lotus seemed in a shambles, the Williams' looked
    more competitive than I expected and I am in deep mourning for Leyton
    House. My only consolation is that it is obviously the car as the
    two drivers are posting so similar times. Maybe their new VAXes
    for CAD/CAM need to be tuned ;-)
    
    Paul

    
    I saw the Boutsen incident on Canal + (coded), so wasn't to sure
    what was going on.  ( DRS, according to my rag , were supposed to
    give full coverage, but it went onto Football after 30 minutes.
    FR3 then gave us 10 minutes (as did the Italians) ).
    
    Anyway, what happened to Boutsen?  The camera showed him hitting a tire
    ( and norrowly missing a mechanic), which meant he required a new
    front.  Was it his fault, of was one of the other teams playing
    at silly *&^%$# ?

    And why were some of the Tire-changes taking so long.  Mansell's
    seemed to take 20 seconds or so.
        
    Nigel 

    Paul,
    
    	Prost was reeling in Senna by about .8sec per lap when Senna did
    his thing. Who knows whether Prost would have caught Senna but the 
    racing up to it would have been great.
    
    In terms of F1, the Tele Monte Carlo commentator put the result into
    perspective for me when he said that Ferrari could not have made a
    better investment than Prost (as expensive as he undoubtedly is).
    The guy seems to have made a great difference to the preparation of
    the car and he goes out and wins as well! What a great boost for the 
    moral of the Ferrari scuderia.
    So for me, a great race, a great relief to see at least 2 cars out
    there to challenge the McLaren domination and a sprinkling of the
    talent out there amongst all the manufacturers. GOOD for the season
    and the sport.
    
    	George Frost
    
    

    Re The last few. Boutsen seemed to misjudge where his pitcrew
    were situated and almost took one of them out. I think the
    wheel dropped by the mechanic ( who obviously had other things
    in mind in terms of his own safety ) damaged the nose of the
    car and it had to be replaced. This probably cost Boutsen
    third.
    
    Having watched the race live out here ( Germany ) I can understand
    why the BBC highlights were bad. I would doubt if the editing
    had much to do with it, the coverage was bad - period !! It
    was ok if you were a Senna or a Piquet fan but the coverage
    was confusing and gave very little information about the
    flow of the race. Example.... Prost was on his last lap,
    the director was tracking Piquet overtaking Alesi and the
    camera only returned to Prost as he crossed the line. Must
    admit I miss the views of James Hunt on this subject living
    out here, they are normally quite amusing.
    
    I think the Senna Nakajap incident was quite clear cut. As
    much as I dislike Senna he has well and truely 'chopped' by
    the pathetically inept Naka... Senna made the move , he had
    the line and Naka just cut in and drove over Senna nose.
    Quite why this cretin has been granted a superlicence
    again this year is beyond me. Good showing around the houses
    or not. Money and Japanese corporate sponsorship, thats the
    only reason he continues to flouder around out of his depth.
    
    Dave
    
    

	I thought that the most heartening feature of this race was
	that the cars were far more evenly matched than for some
	years past. 

	It would have been the case until quite recently that the loss
	of a McLaren nose would only mean the difference between their
	winning by a huge margin and a vast margin. Now any indiscretion
	is likely to mean that a Ferarri or a Williams will fill the
	gap.

	I wonder how long Piquet's resurgence will last, scrapping hard
	for sixth place hasn't been his style for years now, and he does
	seem to be getting the better of Nannini which is somewhat 
	surprising.

	Yes the coverage was awful. The impression given to me regarding
	Boutsen's incident was that it delayed him by just 20 secs,
	which hardly explains how it took him completely out of
	the reckoning. Last year I favoured Boutsen to be the most 
	successful Williams driver, he wasn't. This year I've favoured
	Patrese, which has obviously completely ruined his chances!.

	Two races and I've yet to even see a Lotus which reflects their
	dire performance so far and the sparse tele coverage.

	-John

    Any body know any more details of the lower places/retirements other
    than the following:
    
    7  J Alesi
    8  S Nakajima
    9  P-L Martini
    10 A Nannini
    
    ??
    
    Also, did anybody hear if Mansell had any sort of problem other
    than his lenghty pit stop for his usual Brazilian quota of 5 wheels?
    I know he's said he plans to be more cautious this year but he was
    almost invisible!
    
    Paul
    

    Both Ferraris had long pits stops. Mansell had a problem with the
    gear selection mechanism. Prost also lost about 10 more seconds
    trying to get off the pits (probably a similar problem).
    
    On the Senna/Nakajima incident : Senna was behind, so it was entirely
    his fault this time.
    
    The Interlagos circuit is terribly demanding. All drivers including
    the old timers were absolutely dead for the 2nd half of the race. High 
    g's almost all round the circuit (except for a couple of seconds 
    during the grandstand straight before braking very hard for the slow 
    left hander).
    
    Beautiful circuit for the driving purists. No wonder it has been
    designed mostly by Senna. It includes a lot of high tech corners.

Boutsen lost out because he hit his nose coming out of the pits after his
tyre change, and so had to come in again for a replacement cone. I think that
he hit a pile of Mclaren tyres, though I wouldn't swear to it.

Manesll lost time because he had to have his steering wheel replaced! He was
having gear selection troubles - the Ferrari mechanism is on the wheel.
I don't know if he continued to have the same trouble afterwards?

Eurosport coverage wasn't bad - apart from the 4 commerical breaks they take.
The Brazilian TV coverage was unimaginative - I think that they could have done a 
lot better.

Interlagos, official chart

1.  Prost	Ferrari		1h37'21"258
2.  Berger	McLaren		-13"564
3.  Senna	McLaren		-37"722
4.  Mansell	Ferrari		-47"266
5.  Boutsen	Williams	1 lap
6.  Piquet	Benetton	1 lap
7.  Alesi	Tyrrell		1 lap
8.  Nakajima	Tyrrell		1 lap
9.  Martini	Minardi		2 laps
10. Nannini	Benetton	3 laps
11. Larini	Ligier		3 laps
12. Alliot	Ligier		3 laps
13. Patrese	Williams	6 laps (engine)
14. Morbidelli	Italia		7 laps

    About Prost catching up: (from the ESPN cover)
    
    Prost was 6s behind before the pit stops. He emerged 13s behind. The
    pit stops weren't covered, but there did seem to be a problem.
    
    Before Senna's accident, Prost was picking close to a second/lap. So
    the arithmetic look good. After the accident, with Senna probably ready
    to go for it, Prost was still picking up half a second on Senna, a little
    more than that on Berger.
    
    I also agree: we got frustrated of the better part of the race: Prost
    and Senna going for it.
    
    On the Senna incident, I would say it's pure arithmetic: the guy takes
    unreasonable risks when lapping slow cars. On the bright side, he
    picks a few seconds when passing (how ofter did he pull away from Prost
    in traffic last year). When it works. Of course, it can't work every
    time, and when it doesn't, he looks like a fool. But you have to be
    consistent: you can't praise the guy when he takes too many risks and
    by chance pulls out untouched, and then blame him when he takes a
    gamble and looses. Those are two sides of the same coin. Stupic
    accidents cost Senna a few races last year, but "fast" passing in
    traffic may have won him a few as well. Whether the balance is positive
    or negative is a matter of appreciation, I guess.
    
    Of course, that leaves out another aspect of it: danger. I believe
    the goal of racing is to drive your car fast, not to play russian
    roullette with your and other's life, and hope the odds come out in
    your favor. All a matter of personal appreciation, I reckon.
    
    
    All in all, a real good race. The season looks like it's going to be
    much more exciting than last year...
    
    JP

    
    
    Does anyone have a VHS copy of the race? I've got about the first lap
    and a bit...
    
    Bi||.

Anyone have any details about Ferrari's new engine ? Are they really planning 
to run it in 6 weeks ?

I've looked this season for the Digital logo on the red cars, but can't see them 
- are they there ?

    RE .289
    
    	I have, Bill. I'll bring it in tomorrow
    
    Colin
    
    PS It's a pretty boring race from the BBC highlights, though!!

    Re Ferrari & Digital
    
    I heard (rumour only) that Fiat had gone IBM for CAD etc and that
    Ferrari had done likewise, hence DEC pulling the plug - any Italian
    noters confirm this?
    
    However, Digital UK are sponsoring Leyton House. We got into
    Hospitality in Phoenix courtesy of that and our membership of their
    supporters club. DEC hasn't got a logo on the car but the old blue
    & white lego bricks do appear on all their handouts along with Davia,
    Philips, Auotglass, Fiam and BP.
    
    On the subject of Leyton House, seems they are not going to use
    a Judd V10 afterall. Apparently they announced yesterday that they
    will be taking a new engine from Ilmor Engineering who provided
    engines for the past 3 Indy 500's (according to the Guardian)
    
    Paul

    RE .282,
    
    Boutsen didn't actually hit one of his own pit crew, it was one of the
    crew of the team infront, caused much amusement....one pit crew member
    running like a jack rabbit, leaving his wheel well and truely behind !.
    
    As for Sennas crunch, I think he was in the wrong, and it was sort of
    poetic justice, for all Sennas "not-so-ethical" moves he has done in
    the past !.
    
    Carl

    
    Thanks Colin! Much appreciated.
    
    Bi||.

    Well, Ayrhead did it again!  David Hobbs on ESPN had a very interesting
    comment. 1) Senna was comfortably ahead (12 or 13 seconds), he was
    under no immediate pressure, and his car was running well.  Therefore,
    he had no need to pass on that corner, which Hobbs described as not a 
    good place to pass.  2) Nakajima is a relatively inexperienced F1
    driver, and he has a reputation for using his mirrors only for shaving.
    Taking only those points into consideration, and not bothering about
    rules and racing lines, Hobbs placed all the blame on Senna.  Hobbs
    also did a little basic arithmetic that showed that Prost would have
    caught Senna anyway (passing might have been another story).  Finally,
    on Boutsen's pit stop, ESPN reported that he did hit one of his
    mechanics, who "flew over the air box."  Minor injuries only,
    fortunately.
    
    For Imola . . . we can count on Ferrari closing the hp gap a little
    (after all, Honda is splitting its forces between V10 and V12; Ferrari
    should be able to get the trans a little more reliable over the next
    month and a half; Williams should be a little faster; Benneton ought to
    be a little better (maybe a lot better); Senna will NOT suddenly get a
    lot smarter. Imola ought to be good.
    
    

    What ? 
    
    Nakajima is not relatively inexperienced, he's been around for four
    seasons. After four years in any job you should know a fair bit
    ( ok, ok - debatable ), Nakajimas proble is that he's c**p !
    
    If we want to talk inexperience lets talk about Alesi. This is
    his first full season and he just happens to be driving the
    same car as Naka. Mmmmm... Says it all really but I bet its
    written into Alesis contract that he must swap helmets with
    Naka before each race so that the Japanese sponsors appear to get
    their moneys worth                                             :-)
    
    Der Welsh

    	Isn't this the difference between a GOOD driver and a GREAT
    driver?? I mean, a GOOD driver will go balls out all the way as he is
    motivated to win races. A GREAT driver will think seriously about what
    it is he wants to win (the Championship), think seriously about how to
    go about that and then drive accordingly.
    
    	Senna's antics, once again, count him out from being truly great -
    at the moment he does not use his head enough. Talented? Yes. A serious
    title contender? Certainly. Great? NO!
    
    	Prost, despite his motivation problems last year, I would cast as
    great. Anyone who can win 40 GPs and three World Championships in his 
    career has to have something. I think Prost's ability to think things
    through (eg set the car up for the race rather than go flat out for
    pole) is what sets him apart. I think Berger is in the same mould as
    his teammate and that Mansell is trying to break into that category
    this year. His Championship near-misses with Williams were unfortunate
    but I think he is a much better driver now than then - using his head,
    thinking about the whole season and not just the next corner.
    
    	If Senna was in the same league, he would not go knocking his
    nosefins off on Nakajima's backside. At the post-race press conference
    he intimated that it was all Naka's fault. Bull! Senna screwed up his
    own chances by taking a risk that was just not worth it because that's
    he way he drives full stop.
    
    	Frankly, I'm disappointed so far with Ferrari. I had hoped that
    they would be ultra-reliable (as are McLaren) and prepared for this
    season. If they are serious about taking the Constructors' Championship
    away from McLaren then they have to have two cars finishing regularly
    in the top 6. I hope Imola sees the horsepower gap narrow even further
    and hope that Mansell will get his first win of the season with Prosty
    2nd ahead of BOTH McLarens. THEN I will feel a bit better. Otherwise,
    it's going to be yet another boring McHonda year.
    
    Colin

    Re: .290
    
    The Digital logo's still there - moved to the front of the nose
    cone, and in a nice shade of Ferrari red.
    
    S

    At the bottom of the list ....
    
    Prequalified Friday morning:
    
    	- Bernard, Larrousse-Lambo
        - Suzuki, Larrousse-Lambo
    	- Grouillard, Osella-Ford
    	- Dalmas, AGS-Ford
    
    Poor Brabham could not even mange one full lap with the LIFE-Rocchi

I just read the report of the Grand Prix in Monday's paper. It said that 
Mansell's car was suffering from a broken front anti-roll bar that couldn't be
fixed.  So, he spent the second half of the race nursing the car.  Apparently,
not a happy man.

The previous race's problems (at least, Prost's) were caused by a leaking oil
expansion box on the gearbox.

Dave

    Reports are continuing that David Brabham will be in the Middlebridge
    Brabham at Imola, although they are talking to other drivers. Either
    way it looks like Foitek is on his way out. Middlebridge are also
    winding down their F3000 effort so Brabham and Damon Hill are at
    a loose end. Hill is reported to be going to do F1 testing, Japanese
    F3000 and some WSPC. It would make quite a "historic" team for '91
    - Brabham & Hill!
    
    Leyton House are still being cagey about their new engine, although
    it is likely to be Chrysler based. No details on timings, although
    if its related to the Indy car one it might not be too far away.
    
    Interview with Mr Honda in Autosport indicates that they may have
    to drop out of racing if the US votes for mandatory 50% increases
    in fuel efficiency. Rumours are quoted of McLaren talking to Mercedes!
    
    Neotech W12(?) ran in a Porsche last week with Walter Brun at the
    wheel, no news on date for the Eurobrun though.
    
    Detailed race reports indicate that JMB endeared himself to Brazil
    by addressing the crowd in Spainish, and going round with an Uzi
    toting bodyguard. Also Naka*** apologised to Senna, saying he was
    on the marbles at the edge and slid over. Berger is reported as
    saying he was very uncomfortable in the car and couldn't push very
    hard. Boutsen was having brake problems - hence the flying mechanic.
    
    Paul

    Autosport today confirm the digital sponsorship to Ferrari. For those
    who don't read it, the front cover has a picture of Prost and Mansell 
    with the digital logo , white on red , clearly visible below Magent
    Marrelli and Webber on the nose of the Ferrari.
    
    
    
    Garry
    

    re -2 I'm sure JMB speaking Spanish? Must have endeared himself to the
    Portuguese speaking locals and only confirms what most people think of
    him.
    
    Ken

    Apologies for the spelin' I'm an innorant salesman :-)
    
    It seems that part way through his speech one section of the crowd
    started chanting "Senna-Senna-Senna" and this gradually was taken
    up by the whole lot!
    
    There is an interview with JMB in April's Prix Editions in which
    he comes across as a total ego-maniac with a view that he must run
    motor sport for life. Makes interesting reading!
    
    Paul

    JMB was in Brazil to face the people of this country who just hate the
    old lunatic. He was advised by his phisician not to do it but insisted
    we wanted to be there. He also stated that it wasn't the first
    time he had had problems with people who dislike him and 
    refered that the same had happened before with one other 
    country's (sorry can 't remember which one - Italy maybe?). 
    
    But that there in Brazil it wasn't even dfficult to face the crowds, 
    because they couldn't even afford to buy the tomatos to throw at him 
    (as it was usual in the other country he was referring to). 
    This was of course an allusion to the bad time Brazil is going through 
    and the economic situation they're facing. No wonder that they almost 
    didn't show Prost during the race. For Brazilian Prost and JMB are
    one single entity.
    
    RUI 

    Some JMB quotes
    
    Re Discipline
    
    At the next world council I'm going to put forward the idea of red
    and yellow cards like they have in football. Then we'll see how
    guilty parties react.
    
    
    Re Senna at Adelaide
    
    As luck would have it he made a mistake while he was in the lead
    and put a magic end if I may put it that way to all that carry on.
    
    Re Prost's view on Senna's preferential treatment
    
    I didn't blame Dennis for showing preference for Senna. Prost and
    his little journalist pals are largely responsible for such behaviours.
    
    I like Alain a lot, but there are times when he gets on my nerves
    with the way he carries on and he knows it. He wants its all his
    own way.
    
    Re Senna'a extra 20hp
    
    We learned in the course of 89 that the Honda engine developed 20hp
    more than the Ferrari. Seeing Prost uanable to hang onto Senna but
    able to fight with the Ferrari's it is easy to draw the conclusion
    that his engine too has 20hp less than Senna's. Isn't it logical?
    
                                                                 
    Paul

    The Leyton House engine will be a brand new Ilmor 3.5 litre V10 which
    will be installed in the car before the end of November. The deal was
    finalised in Phoenix.
    
    Imola should see the debuts of the new Benetton B190, the Tyrrell 019
    and Minardi's M190 but we have a whole SEVEN weeks to wait (until 13th
    May)!!!
    
    Colin

    Re - the disappearing Digital!
    
    I checked my and Autosport's pix from Phoenix over the weekend,
    and I reckon Digital should be after a refund from Ferrari!
    
    The logo was only on the cars for two out of three days. It was
    there on race day and in the wet session, but on day 1 it was nowhere
    to be seen. Anybody got an explanation?
    
    Mind you, the sight of McLaren engineers peeling off one Shell logo
    and replacing it with, to my eyes, an identical one was equally
    baffling.
    
    Paul

>    Mind you, the sight of McLaren engineers peeling off one Shell logo
>    and replacing it with, to my eyes, an identical one was equally
>    baffling.
  

	It's not uncommon for the sponsors' logo to be replaced a 'number'
	of times, time permitting, during practice. This of course depends
	on how dirty the logo gets and what sums of money are involved.

	During a Formula 3 round, many years ago at Enna, I replaced the
	"DAF" sticker six times in two practice sessions ! Mind you, a number
	of DAF execs. had flown over to see how Mr Lammers was getting on
	using their money..

	Gordon

	According to Nakajima (In Motoring News) he did take a wide
	line to let Senna through but then, being off the normal line
	and onto the 'marbles', suddenly found it necessary to return
	to the inside of the track.

	Mansell didn't actually change his steering wheel. It was removed
	to allow access to the roll bar adjusters but was then replaced
	since it wasn't thought practicable to try and look at his 
	problem.

	The W12 engine in the LIFE was said to have broken a connecting rod.
	That sounds very ominous.

	-John

    According to last night's Evening Standard, David Brabham has been
    confirmed as replacing Gregor Foitek in the Middlebridge Brabham
    team from Imola. His father is reported to be "over the moon" while
    Gregor is "sick as a parrot".
    
    Seriously, from the races I saw live in the F3 championship last
    year, I rated McNish above Brabham. However, having now seen the
    excellent 2 hour plus video of the whole series, I can see why Brabham
    is rated so highly. He looks more mature than McNish, and I hope
    he does well.
    
    Paul
    

RE: -.2

	That matches what I felt about Nakajima and Senna. Whilst I've been
as critical as anyone about some of Senna's overtaking manouevres, I think
that he was really unlucky this time. Nakajima's approach to the corner
was definitely inviting Senna to overtake.

	Still, if it keeps the "pack" closer to him for a while before he sails
off into the distance, then it makes the championship more interesting.

Steve

    Gidday,

    I am trying to track down 3 seats for the Imola Grand Prix.

    Grandstand or any other stand, it doesn't really matter.

    Anybody out there know of a way I can acquire them
    at this stage of the game?


    John.

	The new Tyrrell 019, due to appear at Imola is said to have
	'a radically different front arrangement'. I don't have any
	details at all but it sounds as if it is something new. 

		It will be interesting to see whether it races
	or not. The current car is going very well, certainly in
	comparison with it's engine power, and if the new car is thought
	good enough to compete it might be even more of a problem for the
	front runners.
 
	Tyrrell seems to be very much on the up at present, but what I
	wonder is supporting them financially. They've got a competent car
	and have been busy recruiting highly regarded technical people, not
	to mention Alesi's success in the driving department. All this and
	no proper sponsor!.

	Next year they'll have Honda Power too. Alesi's progress to the
	top looks set to be meteoric.

	-John

    
    I'm not sure about this, but in an interview with Ken Tyrell in
    Autosport about a month ago, Mr. Tyrell let it be known that the Nippon
    shipping Sponsership was very sizeable, and that he no longer had any
    financial worries!!
    
    Steve

    It will be interesting to see how the new Tyrrell compares, in recent
    seasons a number of teams have changed successful cars for
    spectacularly unsuccessful ones. Leyton House spring to mind. I
    hope that Ken & co don't blow it.
    
    At the other end of the grid, Gary Brabham is reported to have quit
    Life - and who can blame him! Schneider is quoted as a possible
    replacement.
    
    Paul

    Apparently the Portuguese Grand Prix may not take place this year, due
    to a dispute between the owners of the circuit and the Portuguese
    motoring body.  There is talk of an Austrian Grand Prix instead.
    
    Anyone know more ??
    
    
    John

    Ceefax last night talked about a deadline of the end of this month
    (I think) for them to sort the thing out. It also quoted the boss
    of the Portuguese motoring people, saying that they couldn't afford
    to cancel because of the revenue it brings in.
    
    Personally, I would prefer a GP in Austria, the Oestereichring (sp?)
    is one of my favourite circuits.
    
    Paul

John,
	This is good news for me - I loved he Osterreichring the last time I
was there (Ronnie Peterson's last vistory in '78 :-( ). If it is on then I
reckon that I'll go.

	Opening up the topic a bit, which F1 Grand Prix's in Europe would people
go to if they were living less than a day's drive from most circuits? I'm
interested in going to a few and would like some opinions.

Cheers

Steve

    I would go to more GP's if I a) lived nearer to more circuits and b) if
    the price to get in was less. The Last F1 GP I went to was 1980 at 
    Brands Hatch, Alan Jones won in a Williams. I now only got WEC or what 
    FISA call WSPC , about 3 rounds. An example of the price , this year at
    Le Mans I have a Pit Balcony ticket, get me into everywhere during the
    race ( paddock, balcony above the pits, every spectator enclosure ) and
    2 days of practice but no seats in grandstands, all for #53. I would
    shudder to think what that kind of access to a GP would cost baring
    in mind that a seat in the Woodcote stand at Silverstone this year is
    #75. The normal cost of a ticket to a WSPC race is #12 and a couple of
    quid to get into the pits. No supprise I go to WSPC.
    
    
    Garry

	If, and I know it's a big if, there was an Austrian GP in place of
	the Portugese, when would it be ?

	Gordon

    Onyx are reported as having dispensed with the services of both
    Johansson and Lhetto, replacing them with Foitek and Sala. Now Iknow
    that Stephan has never fulfilled his full potential but he his well
    capable of beating those two, and Lhetto is one of the hottest
    prospects around. However, it seems they couldn't bring enough personal
    money with them. Sounds like F1 is going down a bad road when money
    outweighs *real* talent like Lhetto's. Anyone out there confirm
    this? Autosport had it as a Stop Press.
    
    Also this week, confirmation of the coming and going Brabhams, picture
    of the new Benetton B190 in its first test - its got a high air
    box rather than "ears", a Williams like nose profile, new push rod
    suspension and a body made to accomodate active suspension - also
    reports that Renault may support a second team next year, and it
    will be French (Ligier, Lola or AGS).
    
    Also - JMBs full "tomatoes" quote -
    
    "We had similar problems in Corsica with their round of the WRC.
    And the Corsicans, you know, not only throw tomatoes, but bombs.
    But at present the Brazilians cannot afford to buy tomatoes."
    
    Don't you wish someone like that could sort out all the world's
    problems ;->
    
    Paul

    I agree that money has always been No1 in F1, and that money has
    always been able to buy a seat - but I still think its a sad state
    of affairs when someone like Lhetto is replaced by Foitek or Sala.
    
    Paul
    

Yes, but Onyx has been bought by the Swiss - a Mr. Monteverdi (remember his
high performance road cars of the early '70s?) and a Mr. Foitek senior...

It should be pretty clear now why one of the current incumbents got the
heave-ho - little Gregor's number was on one those cars from day one :-)...

$teve

    I must have missed something, assuming that the quote is correct
    then what he said was true. No?
    
    Don't tell me we are going through the start of another I hate X
    hysteria. Let's get on with the facts of F1.
    
    	George Frost

	Yes, the Benetton F190 must I imagine have it's looks improved
	by the repositioning of the inlet air duct to the 'normal'
	position. Doubtless it will still suffer from a fairly large
	dose of the horrid green colour, which if all else fails will
	prevent it from doing very well.

	Just as the Lotus is suffering badly from being covered 100% in
	yuk yellow and Tyrrell have benefitted no end from having a nice
	crisp positive colour scheme, Benetton's performance would blossom
	considerably if only that green could be dispensed with.

	However these people will never learn. They should talk to Renault.
	Seven years of pumping masses of money into their cars - best drivers,
	most powerful engines, Balestre helping out on the sidelines and still
	they couldn't win. If only they could have seen the obvious, that it
	was the colour of the car that was at fault. In the end they gave up
	having never achieved their aims still, at the highest level that is,
	blissfully unaware of the real problem.

	-John

    At last.. I have seen the light, All the time it was the paint job, I
    shall write a letter to Lotus at once suggesting they employ an
    interior decorator/ come grphics designer.  Or perhaps some of the
    warped minds that produce the "art" on the walls of DEC Park could lend
    a hand.....:-)
    
    
    Carl.

    Onyx now belongs to a swiss consortium made of 3 wealthy guys :
    
    - Karl Foitek, Ferrari dealer in Zurich, father of Gregor, used
      to race as an amateur in the 60's
    - Emil Frei, swiss importer of BMW + Mercedes + .... ?
    - Peter Monteverdi, ex-racer, garage owner, ex-car_manufacturer,
      owner of a car museum in Binningen near Basle
    
    Gregor Foitek's move from Brabham to Onyx was planned. Perez-Sala
    is somewhat of a surprise (spanish pesetas poured by Lois jeans?). 
                                                                   
    I'm not too enthusiastic about Jirki Jarvilehto. He sure has balls
    but that's not enough to succeed in today's F1. Guys like Prost
    have brains.
                

    Re -1
    
    According to an interview with Monteverdi, he is the sole owner
    of Onyx. Foitek's dad was only an advisor. However, I accept that
    when the Swiss talk about $$$$$ things can get a little cloudy :-)
    
    Hot off the press -
    
    Ferrari to supply engines to Minardi in 1991, the first time they
    have ever let customer engines go out in F1 (although they have
    done it in lower formulae)
    
    The reports say that Minardi are reputedly the oldest Fiat dealership
    in Italy and that Agnelli, the Fiat boss, was puzzled at why Minardi
    could out-qualify Ferrari! 
    
    They were also looking to do a "me too" at Honda after the Tyrrell
    deal for '91, and looking for a chance to try Ferrari power with
    Pirelli tyres.
    
    Also, the Portuguese government has promised to underwrite the GP
    with a law if necessary if the circuit owners and the Portuguese
    Auto Club cannot come to an agreement, so the race is on. Can anyone
    imagine a British government doing that when they even talked out
    a bill to allow Birmingham to extend its Super Prix meeting to 4
    days?
    
    Paul
    

RE: -.2

Patrick, is the car museum owned by Monteverdi, based on the cars that the
Schlumpf (sp?) brothers obsessively, secrectively, built up over the years
whilst their business went down the tubes? Or am I talking about the French
National Motor Museum (other side of the border, but also near Basle)?

I heard that the Schlumpfs had this private, hidden museum with the most
amazing collection of cars (including more Bugattis then anybody else in the
world), and that when the bailiffs moved in and discovered it, nobody could
believe the scope of it.

The reason that I ask is that I'm going to visit it tomorrow - it would be
good to find out where it is BEFORE I arrive in the Basle area! :-)

Cheers

Steve

P.S. This note is a minor deviation - not intended as a rat-hole!

	Don't worry Steve, this file's full of minor deviants of one sort
	or another :-)

	Gordon

    Another slight aside.......
    
    The pic of Roberto Guerrero's CART March-Alfa in this week's Autosport
    clearly shows the Digital logo on the nose, a la Ferrari. Any US
    noters confirm how it got there? I thought our deal was with Ferrari
    not the Fiat Group.
    
    Paul
    

    
    On the subject of digital in motor racing, the logo on the ferrari
    would appear to be just a token effort. Watching the German touring
    car championship on 3 SAT, digital seem to be putting loads of
    effort in there. The race was at Hockenhiem and there were digital
    logo's all over the place and to finish it off the lap chart displays
    were provided by 'digital Computers' with the customary blue background
    and blocked letters. 
    
    
    Garry

    Just rad today that Penske racing and Ilmore Engineering have signed an
    agreement to develop an F1 engine.  Penske back in F1?
    
    What's the word on the MGN (Moteur Guy Negre) W12 that got a bit of
    press last year?  It was supposed to power the AGS as soon as it (the
    engine was shaken down.
    
    Ferrari to supply engines to Minardi?  A shocker.  Who takes care of
    maintenance?  Novamotor?  Abarth?  Now it might make sense for Fiat to
    make the rumored attempt to buy Cosworth.  I wonder what Ferrari gains
    -- more development time: 4 chassis running their engine instead of
    two; access to the Aldo Costa-Michel Tetu braintrust (?) at Minardi; a
    chance to support a good Italian driver.
    
    Anything further on the NeoTech V12?  Methinks it'll be another
    Serenissima.
    
    IS it true that March is about to cut a deal with Ilmor???  Seems
    unlikely given the supposed Penske tie-in.
    
    Finally, are there any really hard-core F1 technoids out there who'd
    like to wax poetic about the relative merits of push rod vs. pull rod
    suspension?  Interesting how the designers are split on the virtues of
    high-mounted (push rod) vs low-mounted (pull rod).  McLaren goes with
    the low mounted springing units, as does Lotus, Brabham, and Benneton
    (who have I missed?).  Ferrari, Williams, Lola, March, Tyrrell, and 
    everyone else who comes to mind mount their suspension units very high.
    (Note the big "bumps" on the front of the WIlliams and Marches.)  Seems
    to me low-mounted would give lower center of gravity and better
    potential for streamlining.  Anyone out there with the answer -- or,
    better yet, an opinion???
    
    Waiting for the second season . . .
    
    Don 

    Re -1
    
    The Ilmor engine is for the exclusive use of Leyton House in '91.
    Testing is expected to commence in October. They are also expected
    to announce support from a major manufacturer.
    
    Re Cosworth - they have already been sold, I can't remember the
    company but Fiat have missed out.
    
    The Guardian reports this morning that Cesare Fiorio has made an
    offer to Senna for 1991 when his contract expires with McHonda.
    Understandably this has rather upset Prost & Mansell! Senna is thought
    to be unlikely to consider it since he likes working with the Honda
    people and it has been put down to another ruse in the McLaren/Ferrari
    war of words. However, given that Prost has said he would definately
    go if Senna ended up at Modena, and Mansell would be a little unlikely
    to stay as well, it would make the musical chairs a bit more
    interesting as neither are likely to go to McLaren either!
    
    Also confirmed is Johansson's replacement by Foitek. No confirnation
    on Lhetto tho'.
    
    Paul

>    What's the word on the MGN (Moteur Guy Negre) W12 that got a bit of
>    press last year?  It was supposed to power the AGS as soon as it (the
>    engine was shaken down.

Isn't this the engine in the LIFE car. So far totally unsucesful.
    
>    Ferrari to supply engines to Minardi?  A shocker.

I think that the theory is this. Ferrari haven't won the world championship
for 10 years and are getting impatient. Letting another team in, adopting
perhaps a different approach, increases their chances of getting something.
It's said that Honda's decision to take a second team has been a spur.
    
And on suspension systems. It always seemed to me that pull rod was best
because the rod would be stiffer in tension than compression and this was
the original configuration. However the trend does appear to be in favour of
push rods now. Did you know that this suspension arrangement was first
introduced by Maurice Phillipe, who's British despite the name, when he
worked for Lotus in the early 70's. However it fell into disuse until
he revived it when he became Tyrrell chief designer at the beginning of
the 80's. It then spread to all the other cars, and is now standard.

The merit of pull/push rod suspension is that it allows the spring/damper
units to be inside the body of the car (and thus out of the airstream) whilst
maintaining rigidity. When rocker arms were used for this purpose the 
flexing of the arms effected precision unless they were made very strong and
thus heavy.

-John (who met Phillipe when he went to Tyrrell once)

re: push/pull rod suspension

It always apeared to me lat year that the Ferrari was a much better 
handling car than the McLaren...

    re .333
    
    Sorry for this late response Steve. I guess you have found the museumS
    in the meantime. Now for the readers of this notesfile interested
    in historic cars:
    
    - the "Schlumpf Museum" now called National Auto Museum is located
    in MULHOUSE, France. It contains 400 (four hundred) BUGATTIs and
    various cars. It is definitely the BUGATTI sanctuary. Mr Schlumpf
    used to buy at least one copy of each model in order to build the
    completely perfect collection. Of course he found in love with certain
    models of which he bought several copies. All cars in magnificient
    condition. In particular, of the 6 Royale's built 2 are kept in
    Mulhouse.
    
    - Monteverdi's museum in Binningen near Basle is located in
    Switzerland. It is owned by Peter Monteverdi and contains (I've
    not been there yet) a copy of all different Monteverdi's built.
    For those who dont know Monteverdi's cars, I think somewhere around
    150-200 were ever built in the 1965-1975 timeframe. Monteverdi designed
    everything himself (tubular chassis, bodyshape, interior) except
    the engine which was borrowed from the Chrysler catalog (7ltr).
    Bodies were built by Frua and later by Fissore. Very nice shapes
    in the Maserati Ghibli inspiration. Luxurious interior. 2seater
    coupes, 4 seater coupes, 2 seater cabriolets, 2 seater mid-engine
    coupes and eventually "Range Rover" integral transmission cars were built. 

    Minardi with a Ferrari engine ? sounds familiar to me. Wasn't it
    Minardi who got the Ferrari Dino engine for his F2 ? not very succesful
    engine if I remember well. 

    Today's Autosport has photo's of the new, radical Tyrrell. The car
    is similar apart from the nose which has a very different looking
    wing. From the front it looks something like this:
    
                  O
           |_____/ \_____|
    
    Migeot is quoted as follows:-
    
    The underside of the nose section has been rounded and an anhedral
    wing concept introduced.
    
    
    Other bits - 
    
    The Leyton House-Ilmor deal will probably also include either Nissan
    or Toyota at a later date.
    
    The Senna/Fiorio/91 saga goes on. Although  it looks increasingly
    like spoiling tactics rather than hard news.
    
    Lehto is staying at Onyx, and the team are switching to Mader prepared
    Cosworths rather than Hart ones.
    
    The new Ferrari is shown as a drawing. There is a new engine with
    a reputed better power curve and revised bodywork and rear suspension.
    A major change is that the nose wings are fitted direct to the chassis
    rather than to the bodywork, I would have thought this would have
    caused problems in replacing them in a race?
    
    Imola Testing
    
    Prost	1:24.74
    Senna	1:25.13
    Berger	1:25.31
    Boutsen	1:25.63
    Patrese	1:25.77
    Apicella	1:28.83 (Minardi)
    Barilla	1:30.34
    Gugelmin	1:32.30
    Morbidelli	1:37.90 (Ferrari)
    Capelli	1:46.53 (Active suspension car)
    
    Paul

    re .339
    
    Wrong, John. The MGN W12 is still in its infancy mostly due to lack
    of funds although the concept of valveless inlet is being studied
    by a number of manufacturers. The Rocchi W12 is similar to the MGN
    only at the block level (3 banks of 4 cyl with the 2 side banks
    angled at 60 degrees around the central bank). The heads are
    traditionnal ones with valves and camshafts.
    
    A W12 can be an excellent choice, because:
    
    - it is a 12 cyl engine
    - it is very compact (like a 1165cc straight 4)
    
    now the negative point is that is has a complicated exhaust system
    with 3 times 4 pipes. The acoustic harmonization is not easy to
    realise. On the other hand Franco Rocchi is far from being a novice
    engineer. He was a chief motorist at Ferrari for something like
    25 years, in the Forghieri team. His principal achievement is the
    3ltr boxer 12 of the 312.
    
    I'm not sure about the LIFE story. 

    Was Rocchi involved in the Ferrari W18 experimental engine they built? 
    It was sometime in the early 70's I think, I can look it up tonight.
    
    Dave

    On the Ayrhead to Ferrari soap opera:
    
    Great theater.  Don't see how Prost can come out looking good:  he has
    a one-year contract, so Fiorio would fail to do his job if he weren't
    open to replacements.  As for Mansell, he is on the last year of his
    contract.  Looks like Prost has been put in the position of seeming to
    dictate who replaces him.  And the stories seem to imply that Prost
    will fail to honor his current contract if Senna is signed to replace
    him -- after his contract expires.  Hope the rumored Ferrari is better
    than their current PR.
    
    Imola results I've seen look good for a real race.  But whatever is
    wrong with Williams-Renault?  If Renault is serious about winning, they
    could start by paying whatever it takes to get Alesi tied down for the
    future.  And that ought to be do-able: can't see McLaren signing him
    for next year.  
    
    How's this for a 1991 lineup:
    Ferrari:  Ayrhead and Larini (or one of 43 other young Italians)
    McLaren:  Alesi and Berger
    Williams: Prost and Mansell
    
    ?
    
    Don

    Prost will probably set-up the Ferrarri as well as he did the McLaren,
    leaving Ferrari at the top of the constructors championship for 1990.
    
    In any event, Honda will have a very shaky financial 90/91 so I don't
    expect too much of them toward the end of this season.
    Prost on the other hand will see the season out very firmly in the
    driving seat at Ferrari (driver wise) and take his option.
    
    Agreed with .347 The Ferrari second driver for '91 will be Italian,
    and about time too.
    
    	George Frost 

    Some of "Our Nige"'s recent comments make me wonder if he'll still
    be around if he doesn't get the title this year. He's been quoted
    about wanting to win the British Open golf championship and he is
    a scratch golfer. If he does lose out at Ferrari the only alternative
    I could see would be Williams, but they must be keen to get a Frenchman
    in (or rather Renault must be) maybe someone like Alain Menu. I
    don't see Alesi going anywhere with Honda power coming.
    
    I agree that Ferrari will probably look for an Italian soon, Fiat
    must be pushing them. Maybe Capelli if he doesn't believe in the
    new engine. That would be a shame as Capelli and Gugelmin come across
    as a good pairing looking for a better car.
    
    If Senna goes from McLaren though, I wouldn't be surprised to see
    McNish make the jump up if he's doing OK in F3000.
    
    I don't know..........two races down, 14 to go and the musical chairs
    has started already. Maybe when we're back to races every couple
    of weeks the racing will be back to the fore in the news again.
    
    Paul

    	I didn't realise that there were two W12 engines in development
    	so assumed that it had to be the same one in the LIFE car. W
    	engines have been experimented with from time to time, for various
    	uses but as yet appear not to have been successful. Apart from the
    	drawbacks given earlier you have to find a way to incorporate 12
    	connecting rods on your 1172cc crankshaft!. Whether the latest
    	technology can overcome these problems has yet to be seen. We
    	didn't think that the V10 was a viable configuration until somebody
    	came out and did it.
    
    
    	I didn't realise the significance of this Ilmor deal until reading
    	an article over the weekend which explained that this company is
    	the manufacturer of the 'Chevrolet' engine which is currently
    	dominant in US CART racing, getting the better of the Cosworth,
    	Judd and Porsche engines that run there. So they do have a
    	pedigree. Ilmor are located in Northampton (where Cosworth are) and
    	surprise, surprise was started by a couple of ex Cosworth people
    	about 7 years ago. They even kept Cosworth tradition going by
    	creating the company name from their own names.
    
    	Did a previous note infer that Alain Menu was French?, I thought
    	he was Swiss. Anyway I happened to see him come second in a F3000
    	race yesterday.
    
    	Also at this meeting there was a F3 car in the Camel (Lotus) yuk
    	yellow livery. It managed about 400 yards past the start line
    	before pulling off!.
    
    	Isn't it a bit early for the musical chairs bit. Traditionally
    	this occurs at Monza time not Imola.
    
    	-John

    John, it was quite good at Thruxton yesterday wasn't it? The two
    F3 Mika's looked very impressive. The failed Camel car was Paul
    Stewart who watched the race from the banking near us. My vote for
    best looking car was Rydell's F3000 finished in near pure metallic
    British Racing Green. Shame he spun out.
    
    I thought Menu was French, but am willing to be corrected. He
    definately should have won yesterday but for a careless trip over
    a back marker.
    
    Anyway, according to Leyton House, they are still working extensively
    with the Judds for this season and have another two Imola sessions
    booked before the race. They also tested at Silverstone last week
    and showed some improvement.
    
    As for the musical chairs, last year it never really stopped in
    the lower half of the field, maybe this year the trend has moved
    into Division 1!                        
    
    Has anybody heard if there is any driver mug/desperate enough to
    sign up with Life?
    
    Paul

    Yes, Menu is Swiss. The next frenchman on the F1 prospects list
    is probably Erik Comas (who is in Alesi's position a year ago).

    Yes, Thruxton was great - I was on the banking at the Complex, too -
    didn't see you, though! The F3 race was great - expect one or both
    these boys to be in F1 next year or the year after. The F3000 race was
    better than I expected it to be as well - after practice I didn't
    expect menu to hold off the Mansell machine for so long - pity the man
    himself didn't take out the second car!

    Apologies to Monsieur Menu for the change of home territory. Given
    Mr Monteverdi's patriotism, maybe he'll be partnering little Gregor
    next year when Lheto gets a decent drive :-)
    
    The other surprise at Thruxton was the speed *and* smoothness of
    Christian Fittipaldi. Given his connections and nationality I'd
    expect him to be up there in F1 in the next season or so. As for
    the rest, they're either too young or seemingly going nowhere, Higgins
    and Stewart Jr being the obvious examples. Paul Warwick could be
    in with a shout tho' now he's got a decent chassis.
    
    Paul

    Re -1
    
    At the moment the British F3000 seems to be for ex F3 drivers who
    cannot get finance for the full European series, plus a few wealthy
    amateurs/youngsters with no real aspirations for the top league.
    The involvement of Mansell in the Madgewick team could well change
    this, plus the cost of running in F3. This is now #100k plus for
    a full season. This seems to be killing class B.
    
    Of the current crop of drivers Hakkinen, Salo, Fittipaldi,
    Warwick and maybe Noda look to be ready for Euro F3000 at least,
    with Plata, Palhares and maybe Genie in two years time.
    
    Most if not all of the current crop of stars in F1 have come from
    F3 rather than F3000 (Alesi excepted) whereas the also rans have
    come via F3000 if memory serves correct.
    
    F3 probably needs more variety in the chassis department. Ralt are
    trouncing Reynard hands down at the moment (I think its that way
    round!) but it would be interesting to see what would happen if
    people like Williams, Lotus, Ferrari, McLaren etc started building
    chassis for the lower Formulae like in the good old days of F2.
    One of my fondest memories is of Rindt driving a yellow and green
    F2 Lotus at Crystal Palace.
    
    F1 at the moment is so exclusive. The drivers and teams seem to
    be involved in nothing else, not even WSPC, with the exception of
    Leyton House with their F3000, F3 and Japan F3000 teams. I wonder
    if we will see things like Senna in a saloon car race like Clark
    used to do?
    
    Paul 

    I think I've seen something about the obligation for a driver to
    have some F3000 experience before he/she gets the F1 superlicence
    from FISA.
    
    Has anyone seen this ?

    re a couple back. I was surprised at the high standard of RACING in the
    F3000 race - I'd expected the F3 dice between the Finns to be good but
    the struggle between Chaves (who has dropped down from the Euro F3000
    series, presumably because of finance) and Menu was great while Rydell
    was no slouch either. The trouble was, there were not all that many
    decent cars in it - Richard Jones should have either stayed at home or
    tried it in the Formula Vee race!
    
    re -1, I didn't think F3000 was neccessary for a superlicence but some
    sort of international competition is. Senna and Brundle, for example, 
    never drove F3000 but went straight from F3 into F1 and I don't think
    this has changed (unless Balestre has had a brainwave in the last five
    minutes!).
    
    Finally, talking of the "good old days", I remember seeing Graham Hill
    among several other notables at a F2 race at Thruxton many years ago.
    Whoever said it a few back is right, it's a damn shame that current
    contracts for F1 drivers almost exclusively ban them from competing in
    other areas of motorsport. I, too, would dearly love to see Senna
    planted in a Reynard in the middle of the current crop of F3
    up-and-comingmen and see how he performed. Not such a walkover as F1
    has been the last couple of years, I feel!!!
    
    Colin
    F3000 but

	As I understand it F3 and F3000 can both qualify a driver for
	a superlicence. Not specifically necessary to do one or t'other.

	-John

    Let's get back to the F1 !
    

    Just heard on the news that Mansell has a suspected fracture of the
    wrist following a pre-Imola practice shunt. Not sure if this means  he
    will miss the race...
    
    The new Tyrrell drooped it's snoot at a recent shake-down at
    Silverstone, Alesi only managing three laps! Ken said that he thought
    it was broken before the shake-down due to testing at the factory!
    Foitek has his first run in the Onyx but was uncomfortable. Benetton's
    new B190 went well while Lotus also expressed themselves satisfied with
    progress Warwick made with the modified 102.
    
    Colin

    There's note for racing disasters but seeing how this is single
    seaters, so I'll put this in here.
    
    Yesterday at Donnington a spectator was killed as a result of an
    accident involving Allan McNish. The information on teletext was brief
    but the basic story was:
    
    
    	There was serveral cars involved in an accident during the F3000
    race, one of which was McNish. It would appear that he swerved to avoid
    the tangled cars and in the process got airbourne. The car cleared a
    retaining wall fatally injuring a spectator and injuring several
    others. The spectator was rushed to hospital but later died.
    
    
    This is surely a sad day for motorsport when a spectator gets killed. I
    have no idea at what point in the circuit the accident was , one can
    only assume that is was a high speed accident for the car to gain
    enough height to clear the wall and for that matter clear the grass
    between the track and the wall. My recollection of Donnington , there
    is a good deal of grass between retaining walls and the track. The only
    places I could think of are the bend at the botton of craner curves
    before starkys bridge and Mcleans and the approach to it. 
    
    Was any one there who can fill in the blanks.
    
    
    
    Garry
    	

	Nigel Mansell, recuperating in the IOM, says that he definitely
	will be fit to race at Imola. The wrist is only very badly 
	swollen.

	-John

    It's been a very bad week last week in Imola. Mostly rain with wind.
    Most teams present. Lap times dont really reflect the real situation. 
                                                               
    Best lap of the week: Riccardo Patrese, Williams-Renault 1'25"242
    
    (Prost had managed 1'24"746 on Apr 9th, dry track)

	re. last.  It can't have been that wet if the times are that
	close to the best achieved. In fact both Williams were faster
	(just) than the McLarens. Prost decided against running in the
	session in which Mansell came to grief.

	Incidentally YIPPEE::FILHOL (sorry didn't catch the name), your
	opinions would carry a lot more weight if there was a contributory
	content to them. Unfortunately I'm unable to detect any.

	-John

    Last sunday noon TF1 (Auto Moto) showed 5 minutes of Imola, including
    Mansell's spin (it was pouring rain then), and they said that the
    weather was, overall, pretty bad with a lot of rain. They showed
    some periods of time where the track was dry. The best laps were
    obviously managed during those dry moments.
    
    I've heard that Alesi did beautiful things with the new Tyrrell
    (I don't have the times but the reporter said that he went as fast
    as Boutsen in the Williams whatever that means). Is it Alesi or
    the new Tyrrell ? but the combination seemed to go pretty fast on
    a circuit where engine power is the KEY.
    

re.    < Note 837.363 by COMICS::COOMBER "It works better if you plug it in" >
                      -< Spectator killed at Donnington >-


The French Minuit Sport showed a report of the F3000 at Donnington,
    which included footage of the fatal crash.
    
    McNish and another car were involved in a side on collision which
    caused McNish to be airbourne and helped the car up the earth bank,
    which acted like a take-off ramp. The car somersaulted a few times
    then hit the circuit wall, protecting an isolated group of spectators by
    their parked cars. Hitting the wall caused the engine and rear wheels 
    to seperate from the front of the car and it was this that continued 
    through the parked cars and spectators eventually hitting the
    unfortunate guy as he was running away.
    
    Can't comment as to the safety of the track as I havn't been there,
    and the camera angles don't really give a good impression of the
    surroundings.   

Which corner did this all happen on? Being in the US I didn't see the
TV coverage but I have been to Donnington several times and know the circut.

    Sorry can't help - though you could check the F3000 note in this
    conference. I noticed it after I'd entered my original note.
    

    Report in motoring news says/shows that the accident happened shortly 
    before the Dunlop bridge at esses. The cars rubbed noses approaching
    esses at which point McNish was ahead of Naspetti. Both car went right
    hand down lots into the concrete retaining wall. Naspetti car spun and 
    came to a halt just before where the new circuit joins the old.
    McNish's car Barrel rolled along the top of the retaining wall before
    launching off the wall into the spectatators. The car broke up throwing
    engine,gearbox and suspension around the place.  Spectators were hit by
    pieces of the rear end suspension , a mechanic to 1 of the renault
    turbo racer was hit by a lump of suspension , he later died in hospital
    of a heart attack. A marshall that was reported to have serious head
    injuries is making good progress.
    
    McNish suffered no physical injuries nor did Naspetti. There is going
    to be an inquest into this but the RACMSA and FISA have already stated
    that they don't think greater saftey measures in this case would of
    prevented all possible eventuality particulaty when bits of cars are
    airbourne.
    
    
    
    
    Garry
    

    	My M.N. says it differently! I have posted a reply in the F3000
    note but can't remember which one that was.
    
    Colin

    More for the roundabout......
    
    Mansell is quoted in A/Sport as not being willing to be anybody's
    No2 next year. Also the Mansell/Prost relationship is wearing thin,
    with "Our Nige" talking of a one way flow of information and Prost's
    fluency in Italian getting him preferential treatment. Mansell was
    seen around the Williams moter home extensively at Imola.
    
    Other bits 
    
    *More* changes at Onyx and a probable move to a Swiss base
    
    No EuroBrun at Imola and no major sponsor signed yet
    
    Rumours of Yamaha engines for Brabham next year
    
    Mauro Baldi reported to be a front runner for the Mexican Glas-Lambo
    car which is possibly having a demo run at the Meixcan GP
    
    Loads of stuff on Imola testing, but the times are spoiled by rain.
    Alesi was second fastest tho'. I haven't time to put all the times
    in but if anybody wants specifics I can probably put them in later.
    
    Away from F1 - a third Andretti Jr will be trying to qualify for
    Indianapolis and Paul Stewart Racing has bowed to the inevitable
    and switched to Ralt chassis in F3.
    
    Paul
     

	Oh so Mansell's not getting on too well with Prost eh?. Prost
	getting better treatment etc. Now don't I remember this from
	the Mansell/Piquet days.

	Well I'll suggest a reason for this trait. The likes of Prost,
	Senna, Piquet are very good developers of cars. They have the
	capability to feed back to mechanics/designers what's actually
	happening and thus generate those fine improvements that make all
	the difference. This is not Mansell's strong point to say the
	least. Not surprisingly the team responds enthusiastically towards
	those who contribute to improving their lot, and less so to those
	who complain that things aren't right but don't constructively
	say why. It doesn't seem to have taken long to take hold in this
	relationship, not least because Prost, with Senna, is probably the
	best at this sort of thing.

	Anyone remember that race where Piquet chose a different final 
	drive ratio to Mansell and Mansell blamed Piquet/The team/anyone
	else available but never said why he didn't have the sense to
	choose it himself?.

	I would be interested in the Imola tests. This race looks to be
	boiling up to be the closest for a very, very long time. The
	early season showed how the gap has narrowed between the teams
	and now we seem to have the Ferrari,McLaren and Williams neck and
	neck with the added interest of the new Tyrrell (apparently going
	well) and new Benetton too.

	-John

	Today's paper says the Brabham-Yamaka deal is definite for '91.

	The engine will be a new V12 not a development of the old, and
	unsuccessful V8 as used by Zakspeed(deceased).

	-John

    Yesterday I was speaking to someone Leyton House March and he confirmed
    that digital are sponsoring the team ,from what he said it sound very
    much like they get the same treatment as Ferrari. We are providing CAD
    systems to them . He did say that you can expect things change for the
    better soon but did not go any further.
    
    
    Garry

    To stir the pre Imola lethargy a bit, today's gossip from Autosport:
    
    Alesi is said to be top of Ferrari's list now. AS reckons there
    will definately be one free seat at Modena and Fiorio is after Alesi.
    Others in the market could be Footwork who have lots of Yen to lure
    a name driver for the Porsche project.
    
    Prost smashed the Fiorano lap record by over a second, but still
    not in a 641/2. Rumours place the 641/2 engine at 700bhp+ in qualifying
    spec.
    
    New AGS launched last week, much more compact than last year's.
    Designation is JH25.
    
    Speculation that the US GP may move to a stadium car park in Hawaii.
    (No its not April 1st) Apparently the Long Beach Promoter is running
    a Group C race there in March '91. No word as to when the US GP
    would change though.
    
    Larrousse still chasing Renault engines for '91. If they fail, they
    will go after "customer" Ford V8s which are expected to go to two
    teams as Benetton go to a Ford V12.
    
    Life looks to be distinctly dodgy at Life. No new driver, the designer
    left, no money - how long can they survive?
    
    On the engine front, with Ferrari supplying two teams, Honda upto
    three, Lambo on three, Subaru, Neotech, Yamaha, three Fords and
    the Ilmor, I make that 15 teams in '91 who *won't* be using Cosworth
    or Judd. Looks like the old DFV/DFZ/DFR is finally sailing into
    the sunset.........
    
    
    Paul

    re; last
    
    In Tyrell, Alesi will be a hero.  In McLaren or Ferrari, he'll be
    world champion.
    
    Don

	The way things appear to be going Alesi will have a better 
	chance of the World Championship in the Tyrrell than anything
	else. It's performance with an engine well down on power in
	comparison with the 'top' teams is most impressive.

	But a week, let alone a year is a long time in motor racing.

	-John

    In a recent article in a french newspaper, Alesi said that he had no
    reason to stay on more year in a Tyrell.
    It seems through the article that:
    - Alesi and Ken are not really good friends, but Alesi feels very well
    with the technical team.
    - Alesi is very confident in his qualities, but still very clever.
    On the way back to Brazil, he wanted to take the same plane as A.Prost
    to spend the trip speaking with him about, about F1 of course !
    He doesn't want to be shrunk by the Racing World !
    From a place between Monaco and Circuit Paul Ricard,
    
    Bruno.
    

    If I were Alesi, I'd join a 4M pound a year salary team and remain
    "another" driver, anytime, rather than betting on a 100:1 chance of
    becoming world champion in a 1M pound (or less) a year salary team.
    
    Economoically yours,
    
    Chris

    The new cars :
    Tyrrell 019:It is interesting to see what could bring the new front and
    the new techniques used to push the wind that arrives from the front
    (!) to the sides of the car. This must reduce the wind pressure that
    exists under the flat bottom of the car.
    From now on the new Tyrrell was slower than the "old" one but let's
    what and see...
    Ferrari 641/2: No difference apparently but little differences that
    will make big improuvement says Scalabroni. The engine is the same as
    Interlagos.
    Benetton B190: just an evolution of the 189. 3 or 4 kilos heavier !
    
    Alesi said that "Tyrrell with the v10 Honda won't be enough.."
    
    Bruno.

	After the long, long interval it's time for another race!.

	Anyone care to predict Imola?, usually I'm game to have a
	stab (albeit always wrong) but this race looks to be very
	close indeed. Apart from suggesting that the winner will
	be either a Ferrari, McLaren or Williams that is.

	Isn't it time we had 20 races in a season. Only 16 at present
	and with big gaps between March and November. Candidates for
	races not in this years calendar may be - British No2, Austria,
	Scandinavia, Argentina, Russia (coming into fashion), South Africa
	(coming back into fashion), another Far East race etc. Plenty
	of scope really. Even with 20 races at 2 week intervals there's
	still a good sized close season as well. Come on Bernie, lets
	see more action.

	-John

    Last week's testing at Imola saw the McHonda's 1 & 2, followed by
    Mansell and.............Alesi!! Prost was 5th fastest. Autosport
    reported general amazement at the Tyrrell's performance on what
    is supposedly a power circuit. Alesi must now be considered a potential
    winner at Monaco at least.
    
    Capelli had a huge off damaging neck and knee bits. He is due to
    have a medical before practice.
    
    There is also a lengthy interview with "le Prof" in which he reveals
    that one of his options for this year was to found a new team with
    Barnard and Renault but he was unsure they had enough backing!
    
    My prediction for Sunday - a real close one with Alesi mixing it
    with the McHonda's and Ferrari's, and possibly even sneaking it
    if the V10/12s get marginal on fuel.
    
    Paul

	Interesting, but you have to remember that the Tyrrell is on
	Pirrelis and it's acknowledged that their qualifiers (one
	assumes the times were set on qualifiers) are better than the
	Goodyears, an advantage that may not be transferred to the
	race.

	I'd agree that Monaco will offer a great opportunity since
	getting on the front row is so important and the US GP showed
	that the Tyrrell is competitive on a street circuit.

	Were these Imola times set in the new Tyrrell or the old one?,
	Is the new one really better?.

	-John

    let's say, for Imola:
    1.Senna
    2.Berger
    3.Boutsen
    4.Prost
    5.Alesi
    6.Patrese
    
    With a big engine problem for Mansell...
    
    I hope this will not come true !
    Bruno.

    Well,
    
    	  It looks like the BBC are going to show the whole race on Sunday.
    
    That's unless the weather is nice and they can show somebody preparing
    to think about perhaps maybe running towards one of those chaps in
    white with a cricket bat in has hand...
    
    Here's hoping
    
    
    Bruce

    agree with .388 however with Prost 3rd. This will be the last outright win
    for Senna this season - always an opinion of course.
    
    	George Frost

    Do you know who will carry the embedded camera ??

    Grid after fridays timed practice:
    
    
    	1. Berger
    	2. Senna
    	3. Patrase
    	4. Mansell
    
    I'm not sure of the rest but prost was about 6th . Martini was in the
    top 10 but he had a very heavy shunt in practice distroying the car in a
    big way.
    
    
    Garry (who will be working all weeking)
    
    

    About Martini and his shunt.
    
    I only caught a snatch of reportage on the French radio yesterday
    which mentioned a nasty accident and much broken bones.
    
    Was this Martini? can somebody confirm pse.
    
    	George Frost (also a weekend worker - this time only)

    Yes it was for sure Martini. The report on ceefax said that he went off
    the track , not sure where, across the grass and hit the retaining
    wall. The report said that the front of the car was  bent at right
    angles to the rest of the car , not sure what they mean by that . 
    If its a carbon fibre chassis then I would have expected it to
    crack,break or something if it was that heavy but bend , beats me.
    Best I can do from memory.
    
    
    Garry 

    All very quiet about yesterday?
    
    Good race wasn't it. Mansell was very unlucky, although if I were
    in his shoes I'd be fuming with Ferrari for their failure to fix
    this "smoking engine" problem. He showed superb car control though
    when forst De Cesaris and then Berger offed him. I hasten to add
    that Berger was far less culpable than De Cesaris.
    
    As for the rest, it looks like we're in for a real tussle for the
    rest of the year. Team Perfect are not so anymore, Willaims are
    getting faster and staying consistent, Team Lotus are on their way
    back with a solid 7th and 8th, and Leyton House were well up the
    grid, even if the race was a write off.
    
    I was unimpressed with Prost yesterday. He made a blatant error
    in changing tyres, and after that never looked to have much real
    aggression. Nannini didn't look to have too much trouble holding
    him off.
    
    The UK TV coverage was excellent too. I particularly liked one
    Murray/James exchange:
    
    Murray - Berger is still rather uncomfortable in the McLaren, he'd
    like an additional 10cm of space.
    
    James - What you really mean Murray is that he's in absolute screaming
    agony.
    
    Maybe that was the reason he had to back off. If it is, then McLaren
    have a real problem for the rest of the season.
    
    Prediction for Monaco - Senna and Alesi to do a repeat of Phoenix,
    with possibly Donnelly chasing hard too (he was superb at the
    Birmingham Super Prix last year).
    
    Paul

Imola weekend.

Snippets gleaned from Eurosport, plus some opinions - anyone got any 
interesting ones from the BBC?

- From practice: Martini has a chipped ankle - could be OK for Monaco.

- Anyone see Senna's pole lap - absolutely fantastic. It was just at the limit
  between control and raggedness - and (unlike Mansell); he planned it around
  a clear track.

- Congratulations to Patrese - well overdue this one. (His previous 2 GPs
  have always been regarded as "dubious" in some circles - e.g was he push
  started at Monaco when he span off?) No doubting this one.

- Particular commiserations to Senna - don't think that he would have been
  touchable if he hadn't run over the debris. Also, bad luck Mansell; though 
  the way he was driving, I'm suprised that he lasted as long as he did.

- Anyone else suprised that Senna gave up so easily? A couple of years ago, I'm
  sure that he'd have tried to do a Villeneuve and get back to the pits?
  Sign of mellowing?

- What happened to Berger - why did he lose his position to Patrese? Wasn't 
  clear from the commentary.

- Boutsen went with gear selection problems - managed to change down from
  3rd to 1st (ouch!).

- Mansell's engine officially went because of debris in the intakes, collected
  after his coming together with Berger, sent the temperature sky-high.
  Personally, after seeing crud coming out of the back of his car as early
  as lap 2, I'd be suprised if this was the sole reason (convenient for
  Ferrari though).

- Mansell was so pumped up afterwards that he head-butted the pit
  wall - needed three stiches. Complaining about his "friend Gerhard; how
  could he do this?". Must admit that Gerhard seemed a bit reckless to me - went
  somewhat beyond protecting the racing line! I know JL will disagree with me,
  but I thought that Mansell's car control at 195 m.p.h. was amazing - he
  didn't even touch his brakes (thus not flat spotting the tyres), and came out
  facing forward at a reasonable speed.
  
- I think that Berger is too hard on his car. Two races in a row, I believe
  that he should have won, but had to back off in the late stages of the
  race (fuel economy or tyres, perhaps?). I don't think that his
  apprenticeship driving fork lift trucks and lorries in his father's haulage
  business, have helped here! Shame - I'd like him to be a top-level
  contender.

- Interview with Postlewaithe. Said that if the new Tyrrell was driven at
  racing speed, upside down in the Monaco tunnel, it would stick to the roof.
  In otherwords the ground affect (shouldn't call it that though, should I?)
  is greater than the weight of the car.

- Prost was very quiet. Hope that it was a mechanical problem; otherwise it
  looks as though he isn't really a contender this year (despite his good
  win in Brazil). What does anyone else think?

- Great that the championship hasn't been sewn up by Senna yet (4 points
  separating top 4 drivers); however I can't see his run of bad luck
  continuing much longer.

- Great comment from John Watson about Oliver Grouillard. This guy baulked two
  good practice laps (he was sleeping), and was slow to get out of the way
  of the leaders during the race. Watson said that he'd had a lot of good
  training from Arnoux (they were team mates at Ligier last season)!

Monaco should be good - anyone else fancy Alesi's chances - as long as he
doesn't try Postlewaithe's party trick?!

Snippets, according to the BBC, Nigel only lost around 2.5 seconds on his spin.
Watching it again, I thought that Berger was blameless.  Nigel drove a good,
agressive race.  What the devil was Prost playing at?

Dave

	* I thought it was one of the best races for sometime and
	the closeness of it all augers well for the quality of
	this years championship. 

	* Patrese's first genuine win, after nearly 200 races.

	* What happened to Senna's wheel?. They just don't break like
	that do they?. Maybe the tyre blew in a big way first and the
	wheel went on contact with the ground.

	* Mansell's pirouette was a classic example of what's best and
	worst about him. Trying to overtake on the outside at that point
	was really stupid, but the car control and exit was superb. I
	was getting the impression that his engine was going to last
	until the off so perhaps Ferrari are clean here. Blaming Berger
	just makes it worse, he (Berger) was just following his, ie
	the racing line.

	* Uncharacteristic poor choice of tyres for Prost it seems. But
	bearing in mind that Nannini set fastest lap whilst holding off
	Prost I think it's unfair to say that he wasn't trying.

	* The new Benetton is clearly that little bit better than the old
	one, now if only they'd change the colour scheme.

	* Nannini got the better of Piquet, for the first time this season.
	I got the impression that Piquet must have had an off somewhere
	since he suddenly lost a lot of places early on.

	* Alesi was immensely disappointing. It seems to me that this driver
	is now suffering from a bad bout of overconfidence and is getting
	wild.

	* The new Tyrrell, first time I've even seen it, certainly looks
	the part and as evidenced by the start of the race when Alesi
	was up with the leaders is very fast through the corners. Wonder
	which team will be the first to copy this arrangement, it surely
	won't be long before they do.

	* I expect Alesi to be on pole at Monaco, but he won't win.

	* Both Lotuses finished. Seems the engine bugs must have been fixed.
	Now they might be able to concentrate on making it faster.

	-John

What's IMOLA please?

A place, a town in Italy.......at least it was last time I looked.


		Mike.

    re -3
    
    The Grauniad reckons Senna's wheel broke up after hitting debris
    from the Nakajima/Capelli accident. As per another previous on Ayrton
    mellowing, by the look of the TV he was trying to get back to the
    pits but lost it when the trye deflated totally under braking. Once
    he was in the gravel trap he was a gonner.
    
    The film of Nannini's accident in practice on the highlight's program
    was pretty dramatic, as was the film on Mansell just missing Barilla.
    BTW did anybody else see the bit at the beginning of Grandstand
    of Mansell straight-lining one of the chicanes?
    
    I partially agree about Alesi, he was a bit over aggressive at the
    first corner, but he looked pretty controlled for the rest of the
    race.
    
    On the subject of Prost, I don't think he will have scored many
    brownie points with the tifosi by his drive, unlike Mansell who
    went out in a blaze of glory.
    
    Paul

Just read the Swiss papers - apparently Berger's very apologetic; but says
that he was just following his racing line - didn't see Mansell until it
had happened. John Watson thought that Berger was culpable - with his years
of experience, he should have been using his mirrors rather than assuming.

Apparently Berger had problems with brakes, and then later with fuel cutting
out - maybe this is why Patrese suddenly got past him?

    RE:  The many comments on Prost at Imola --
    
    After 40 wins, perhaps it's safe to assume he's 1) competitive and 2)
    reasonably intelligent.  ESPN had a lot of shots of Prost's car in the
    last few laps of the race -- his engine or trans was clearly giving
    out.  He was smoking worse on every lap, so he may have been nursing
    the car.  Yes, the fanatics will rave about Nigel for a few days, but
    Prost is driving for the championship.
    
    Anyone notice that Prost was driving the "old" 641, while Mansell was
    in the 641/2?
    
    Three races, three winners, three different makes.  It doesn't get any
    better!
    
    Don
    

	Re. Imola. Well officially it's called the San Marino Grand Prix,
	but really that's just an excuse for Italy to have two GPs and
	this one happens to be held at Imola.

	The Times says that Piquet did indeed have a a tangle with, well
	you could have guessed, Alesi. I don't remember seeing this on the
	box though.

	Mansell is quoted in the Times as saying "I can't believe what my
	friend Gerhard did to me", and "The engine gave out without warning".

	Mansell also says he thinks the FIA should be doing something 
	about these incidents. ie De Cesaris, Berger.

	-John

    
    How can Mansell say that the engine gave without warning? It had
    been puffing smoke for ages - in fact it started smoking when he
    had that dice with Alesi (?) early in the race. I wonder if he
    over-revved it then?
    
    I was surprised when he tried to overtake Berger, why didn't he
    take the inside line? Without doubt, his car control is simply
    incredible, but he does seem to rely on it rather a lot.
    
    Bill.

>>    
    Anyone notice that Prost was driving the "old" 641, while Mansell was
    in the 641/2?
    
>>

murray walker said that prost just had the old bodyshell on an equivalent car 
to mansell (dunno why)

what was alboretto doing? (thought he didn't qualify)


...art

    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Imola 1990
    
    Results:			Championship:
    1.Patrese			1.Senna		13 pts
    2.Berger			2.Prost		12
    3.Nannini			3.Berger	12
    4.Prost			4.Patrese	 9
    5.Piquet			5.Alesi		 7
    6.Alesi			6.Boutsen	 
    				  Piquet	 6
    				..Mansell	 3
    
    
    
    I surely saw the Ferrari of Prost with strange blue smoke during the
    last laps. I understand now the behaviour of the driver !
    Good Benetton with good Nannini...
    Alesi on the road for Monaco ?
    
    Let's say:
    1.Senna
    2.Mansell
    3.Berger
    4.Alesi
    5.Prost
    6.Piquet
    
    See you soon !
    
    Bruno.

    RE Alboreto... For some reason the TV director decided to show his
    practice spin half way through the race. No idea why but then again
    Alboreto is a) Italian and b) a former hero of the Tifosi.
    
    As for Arrows... Looks like Footwork have bought a 'dud', even if they
    do get to use Porsche engines next season.
    
    Dave
    

    Gents
    
    There is much ado in certain sections of the press today about the
    past life of Ricardo Patresse. How he has at last "come of age"
    blah blah blah... However, there is also much being made of his
    part in the 1978 Italian GP and the death of Ronnie Peterson
    ( he was even banned for a race as a result of this ). Personally
    I can't remember any of this. Would anybody care to provide a
    bit of "nostalgia"...
    
    Dave
    

	Well, I can't help a lot even though I do remember the 78 
	season, which was the first year of Grand Prix on TV and thus
	the first year you could follow the whole season in pictures.

	Patrese spent many years being quick but erratic. It often 
	seemed to me that his place in F1 had as much to do with 
	Italian sponsorship money as anything else. He's a much better
	driver now than he used to be, not any quicker but much more
	consistent.

	He'd previously won two GPs. One I think was South Africa 83,
	where Piquet contesting the championship with Prost, who retired,
	eased off and let Patrese through to go on to win. Lauda, in the
	then new McLaren Turbo was going to walk away with it until his
	turbo blew.

	The other win was quite extraordinary. At Monaco, 82?, the race
	was struck by very light rain about midway through and the overall 
	pace was much reduced. As it got to the last few laps the rain came
	down more heavily. Patrese had been running at around 5th place
	with a lap or two to go when all of a sudden all of the leaders
	disappeared!. Some span off and others just ran out of fuel, the
	slow pace having upset many fuel consumption predictions. True
	to form Patrese also span off once he inherited the lead but was
	able to restart and went on to win. Some say he had illegal help
	getting restarted.

	As for the Peterson disaster, I don't recall who else was involved.
	Peterson's Lotus 79 was ill and he had to use the old 78 and thus
	qualified way down the grid. There was a massive pile up at the 
	start and the car caught fire. The rest is sad history. Many think
	that if there hadn't been 'team orders' at Lotus he and not Andretti
	would have been world champion that year.

	-John

    
    As I remember, the whole incident was caused by Fangio, who started the
    race before all cars had come to a halt after the warm up lap. The cars
    at the back came through on a flying start, hence the following mayhem.
    
    Patrese was unjustly accused in my eyes, the real culprit was the guy
    starting the race.

    
    Talking of flying starts, did anyone else think that most of the
    front rows' cars started well ahead of the Green at Imola?
    
    Bill.

    Absolutely, and for me Berger was blatantly ahead of the green light.
    
    Stick by the rules I say, but then if they do a whole lot of people
    are going to whinge again.
    
    	George Frost

    Official statements about the race:
    
    - Senna did not run over debris of Nakajima/Capelli cars. He started
    with a broken rim. Confirmed by McLaren. Made the most stupid move
    by not stopping in time.
    
    - Prost received a lot of dust/clay/stones over his car when following
    Nigel Mansell. The rear tyres became unbalanced forcing him to stop
    at lap 28. Otherwise the Ferraris had planned a non-stop race.
    
    - Mansell was driving the new chassis whereas Prost had the old
    one. This resulted from a 5 hour briefing session saturday afternoon.
    
    - Alesi had an engine problem with his race car just before the
    start and had to revert to the T car. Unfortunately the tyre pressure
    was incorrect. After his tyre stop he eventually drove a reasonably
    good pace.
    
    - The Honda engine of Berger's McLaren lost its power. The Ferrari's
    were also handicapped by their engines.

    Why did Senna start with a broken rim ??? Wasn't there time to
    change it, or were the mechanics just checking if he would notice :-)

 Mark

I also thought that everyone had head start on the lights, although that 
could just have been the coverage on the TV.

Dave

    Correct ! everybody jumped the start. The marshalls had a long
    discussion during the GP, they watched the tape several times and
    concluded that they could not take any other reasonable decision.
    But you're right Berger started at least 1 sec before the green
    light.
    
    Senna declared that he felt he had a broken wheel in the 1st corner.
    He also declared that he felt the situation was getting worse and
    worse. He radioed the McLaren team while going down Rivazza on his
    final lap. Why didn't he stop before ?

    The start of any GP is subject to "jumping"... Its the motorised
    equivalent of the start of a 100m race, just think how many false
    starts occur there as each runner anticipates the gun.
    
    IMHO there is a lot to be said for a rolling start in F1 like you
    get in Group C ,or Indy.
    
    Dave
    
    PS If anyone is in doubt just think back to the last Austrian GP
    

	Some more bits gleaned from a rerun of the video.

	* The entire field appeared to jump the lights, as seen on TV.

	* Prost. Was running close behind Mansell then suddenly started
	to drop back and lost places to Alesi, Piquet. When these 
	disappeared he started to pull back towards the leaders and
	then stopped for tyres?. After the stop he was consistently
	making ground on the leaders but when he reached Nannini the
	latter seemed to speed up and the two of them made forward 
	progress but not enough despite setting fastest laps.

	* Piquet was running very well at first until he came up upon
	Alesi. They must have had a coming together which dropped
	Piquet several places but delayed Alesi somewhat less though	
	it did allow Prost through.

	* I think that the new Benetton is better than I at first thought.
	Piquet was very quick before the off and both cars were on the
	same lap as the leaders. Piquet perhaps isn't such a spent force
	as has been suggested for the last year or two and could be
	winning races again this season (with some assistance from the
	fickle finger of fate).

	* The Lotuses were quick down the straights but really poor
	on the bends. Perhaps they need a bit of Tyrrell type 
	aerodynamics.

	* Mansell effort at passing De Cesaris was ill judged. I'm afraid
	I wouldn't blame the Italian for this one.

	* Berger never moved an inch from his line when Mansell tried
	to come past. Berger is a gentleman driver, of the Prost type,
	he doesn't push people off.

	* In years gone by Patrese would have had Mansell (and himself) off 
	the circuit when he came pushing through, now it seems discretion 
	is the better part of valour.

	-John

    RE -1 and the lotus.
    
    	On Ceefax last night there was a in brief that said that Warwick
    	had set  the fastest recorded average speed round Donnington at 
    	129.29 mph. 
    
    Garry

    RE: .416
    
    Any idea WHAT was said in that 5 hour briefing???
    
    Did the Ferraris have their "new" engines?  (With twin ignition?)
    
    Don

    Well it's probably impossible to break the secrets. All we know
    is what they have decided to disclose. Officially the new engines
    are not satisfactory : that means both the super high rev/high power
    qualifiers as well as the improved race versions. Intro is officially
    postponed to France GP early July.
         
    The other thing that many drivers complained about is a minor point
    with the new safety regulations : the mirrors are a terrible nuisance 
    in terms of aerodynamics. If you remember the terrible problems
    encountered by the McLarens of Senna and Prost during qualifications
    at Silverstone last year with their small rear air intake I can
    trust Prost asking for the old chassis and bodywork (641) which
    worked perfectly

    Brief aside:
    
    At Brands yesterday for the F3/2 Mika's roadshow the announcer said
    that some well known personages were to be seen in the pits supporting
    their proteges, Brazilian ones.
    
    Low and behold at lunchtime there were Wilson Fittipaldi and "three
    times world champion" Nelson Piquet. My wife felt like saying in
    a loud voice "I thought they meant someone good - Ayrton!". Interesting
    to note that more people were crowding round the PSR pit to get
    Jackie Stewart's autograph.
    
    Also in the Pre 83 FF2000 race, on the front row, one Steve Nichols
    (USA) .... yes, the very same! He managed to stall at the start
    and trailed round last!
    
    Watch out for the two Mika's in F1 in a couple of years - they are
    in a class of their own this year.
    
    Also - what odds on McNish in next year's F1 equations now he's
    on the winning way in F3000?
    
    Paul

Re: .411

Patrese had a reputation in '78 for being a bit wild; and had been blamed for
some earlier incidents. After the start-line shunt, the drivers held a kangaroo
court - pronouncing him guilty. It was never clear to me exactly what he had
done to precipitate this. The drivers then said that unless Patrese was
given a one race ban, they would boycott the next Grand Prix, so the FIA
did just that. The only other case I can think of in recent times was
Mansell last season.

The accident itself was really tragic. Immediately afterwards it looked as
though Vittorio Brambilla was in danger - he had a fractured skull; however he
came through OK. Peterson's broken leg was bad news, but should have healed.
Unfortunately, 2-3 days later he developed an embolism (blood vessel blockage)
which killed him.

    Riccardo was (and probably still is somehow) known for being difficult
    to pass. But I dont remember him doing terrible things like De Cesaris
    in recent races.
    
    As for the fatal Monza incident, Riccardo has finally been discharged
    of all accusations after the italian court viewed a film made by one 
    of the spectators showing the race director giving the green light
    early (half of the field were still moving to their grid position
    causing them to effectively jump the start and pile onto the front
    of the grid at the 1st chicane).
    
    I like the way Riccardo drives. As a GP veteran (almost 200 GP)
    he looks very good and very enthusiastic.

	Monaco looms up. It's a bit later than usual in the year and
	perhaps it won't rain this year. It's strange that the sun-drenched
	playground of the jet set always seems more prone to rain than
	any other venue.

	The tight twisty circuit does tend to be a leveller, with the
	premium being on handling and acceleration rather than outright 
	power. It should therefore be very close, particularly in practice.

	I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Alesi on pole. If this should
	occur it'll be the first Tyrrell pole for many a long year. The 
	car seems to have the credentials ie. Lots of downforce, good handling,
	and the Pirreli qualifiers which appear to be better than the 
	Goodyears.

	After that it's so close, the McLaren may have the most power but
	possibly the worst handling of the other main contenders. Williams
	and Benetton must be on the same level at this circuit which leaves
	it down to the drivers. Senna must be favourite of course, but at
	the other end there's Piquet who not only doesn't like street 
	circuits but doesn't do well at them either.

	Grid Prediction		Alesi
				Senna
				Nannini
				Boutsen
				Patrese
				Berger

	Ferrari?. A race they'd rather forget I think. The car doesn't look
	happy around tight bends and relies more than any other on masses
	of revs to get along. This just isn't their circuit. A pity for
	Mansell since he's a very good driver on this sort of track. The 
	other minor teams will be in with a shout too and some may have
	the rare privilege of competing head to head with Ferrari. It'll
	be a bad meeting for Lotus too.

	I can't see Alesi winning though, he may be quick but he also keeps
	having off circuit excursions, and at Monaco you only do that once.

	Result			Senna
				Nannini
				Patrese
				Boutsen
				Berger
				Nakajima		


	-John

	Patrick, are we going to have one of your excellent practice
	reports this year?

	-John

    Monte Carlo TV shows all training sessions LIVE. Good news for us folks
    living down here. Tough luck for the others.
    
    So, there's quite some chance for some fluorescent test reports.
    Keep'em coming, Patrick...
    
    Reportingly yours,
    
    Chris
    
    PS: I was there last year, for the final training. Fascinating.
    Genuinely fascinating....

    re .429/.430
    
    Let's do the following: 
    
    - I'll take care of Thursday (prequalif., 1st practice sessions)
    - Chris does the saturday report (including the F3 race !)
    
    OK ?                 :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)

    Nice try...

    re. some previous comment about Berger loosing first places:
    
    He gave an interview to the German weekly DER SPIEGEL, wherein he gave
    some insight into what's going on. In short, he said that he left the
    track in the US because his right foot got caught btw. accelerator and
    brake pedal, and in Imola he had to let Patrese go because of a) his
    engine getting feebler towards the end and b) he has lost all feeling
    in his legs and feet! Because of his size, Berger has to drive all
    races with bent (knees together, feet a bit apart) legs. Try sit like
    that for 15mins. And then think about what it's like to be pressed into
    that position for two hours and 300+ kms. Leave alone xx gear
    changes/round.
    
    On top, taking into consideration that there's NO hydraulical or
    mechanical power assistance for depressing the clutch, you can see how
    comfortable it is for a driver to ride a car where he cannot fully
    stretch his legs.
    
    As he once said: this is becoming a sport for one-legged dwarves...

    
    Chris,
    
    Do you think he just got lazy driving those automatics?
    
    Colin

	One reason I'm not expecting Berger to do anything much at
	Monte Carlo is this 'cramped in the cockpit' problem. It
	would be bad enough at most circuits, but around this all
	activity circuit he's really going to be up against it.

	They, McLaren, seem to be saying that they're going to do
	something about it but I can't see that it's that easy. One
	regulation on car design is that the drivers feet must be
	behind the line of the front axle. This was introduced a few
	years back on safety grounds. How then can they really improve
	his lot without lengthening the car?.

	-John

    I've just read an interesting press release that may bring some
    interesting thoughts to this discussion:  
    
    according to Hans Metzger, project manager                                  
    
    - the Porsche V12 is delayed by 6 months
    - it will have a central power output, that is : connected at mid-point
      of the crankshaft.
                                                                       
    My conclusions:
    
    1st conclusion : they will place the engine transversely in the
    chassis. Why not ? aerodynamics ?
    
    2nd possibility : they will locate the gerabox alongside the engine
    
    3rd reason : they have rigidity/vibration problems with the V12
    crankshaft. Old problem (remember the 3litre Ferraris)
     
    In both alternatives 1&2 they will gain an immense amount on wheelbase.
                                                                          
    Interesting stuff, isn't it ?

    Mc Honda are not automatic, aren't they ?
    
    Apart from that, Alesi about the Monaco GP:
    1.Senna, 2.Patrese, 3.Berger (even though the Ferrari does not look
    very good !)
     
    
    And there are big strikes annouced in the SNCF (trains) and nice
    airport for all the week-end !!!
    How are the things going down here ?
    
    Bruno, getting nervous before going to the qualif on Saturday...

    A transverse V12 ought to create horrible problems with downforce ==
    would impede on the venturis.
    
    Could Metzger mean that the gearbox will be in the sump, with the
    driveshafts approximately mid-point of the engine?
    
    Anyone for a pool on how long Fiat perseveres with Ferrari?  They'vs
    spent a lot of lira for few results. . . .
    
    Don 

    Well, Fiat's been persevering with Ferrari for 21 years now, so
    I would guess they'll stick around for a few more.... . As long
    as there is an F1 World Championship, Ferrari will be there with
    red cars.
    
    Dave

    Monaco Pre Qualifying
    
    From Ceefax this am
    
    The lucky 4 are....
    
    Aliot, Suzuka, Grouillard and Moreno
    
    In the list of non-qualifiers Giacomelli in the Life was given a
    time of around the 1.41 mark in comparison with the 1.27/28s of
    the others. Does this mean that the Life has now completed a lap!!!
    
    Paul

    Monaco first tests:
    1.Senna (beaten all the records of the track)
    2.Berger
    3.Alesi (wonderfull laps)
    4.Prost (wondering about security...)
    5.Boutsen
    ...
    The strikes are still on the wave !

    Ref -2
    
    Apologies chaps... early morning brainfade, it was Bernard not Aliot
    in prequal! My mind was still two years out of date.
    
    Paul
    

	And Warwick in the Lotus is 6th or 7th!. I am amazed and pleased
	too.

	-John

[] MOTOR SPORT.F1 Monaco, 1st timed qualification.

   Senna (McLaren Honda)........ 1'21"797
   Berger (McLaren Honda)....... 1'23"001
   Alesi (Tyrell-Cosworth)...... 1'23"372
   Prost (Ferrari).............. 1'23"449
   Boutsen (Williams-Renault)... 1'23"936
   Martini (Minardi-Cosworth)... 1'24"012
   Warwick (Lotus-Lamborghini).. 1'24"070
   Patrese (Williams-Renault)... 1'24"179
   Larini (Ligier-Cosworth)..... 1'24"206
<   Mansell (Ferrari)............ 1'24"206

   Second and final qualification on saturday.
 

    
    
    There was some piccies from Monaco on Sky News last night. 
    Senna's qualifying lap was more akin to the way a rally driver 
    would have driven round the Monaco circuit than a F1 driver.
    His McClaren was sliding around all over the place. 

    

    The 1st 2 cents worth.....
    
    Another p***poor performance again yesterday by the much hyped Ferrari
    641. I don't see how they can expect to win anything this season at
    this rate.
    
    Dave

Haven't seen the race yet - going to watch it tonight.

Don't want to go down another rathole (much!), but I did see J-M B. being
interviewed on French news last night; he's at it again!

He came up with the following independant, totally unrelated remarks :-)....

	o Alesi is French. Alesi is the best thing sliced bread. Alesi 
	  finished just behind Senna despite having a 100 horse power
	  disadvantage.

	o A French car has never won the world championship. An all French
	  combination (French driver, chassis, engine and tyres) should be
	  entered in 1991 to redress this anomaly.

	o Renault make mighty fine engines - they should,as a point of 
	  national honour, be supplying them to a French team.

	o Ligier are the best French team of the moment; they should be
	  receiving more support.

	o I (J-M B) and the Federation will work to put in place an all
	  French team for the '91 season. [P.S., I hope that by "the
	  Federation", he meant the French motor racing organisation and not
	  FISA?!].


He didn't further mention tyres - I guess that we can take that as a 'given'.
This venture should, IMO, use French plugs, oil, paint, sponsorship, fuel,
kevlar, metal alloys, race-wear etc. to properly calm J-M B's xenophopic
feelings.

Well, lets see how far he gets this time. The last costly venture that he
pushed couldn't produce the goods - even with Prost at the helm...

    Balestre, indeed, is the Chairman of the French FA.

As a matter of interest....

Apparently Prost was already to go "French" for this season during his
dispute with McHonda last season ( or so he said in an Autosport interview
recently ).He had a fairly impressive list of things going for him at that 
time but canned the idea, namely:

1. John Barnard.
2. Renault.
3. As much sponsorship as he could eat.

As for the weekends G.P... I wouldn't go out of your way to watch it. But
if you do,switch off before the re-start as it was fairly tedious stuff.
By the time they got to Casino Square on the second start Senna was long
gone. He seemed to develop a problem two laps from the end but was in
contol until the flag. Difficult to tell what happened until someone
publishes something about it but when the flag fell there was hardly any
distance at all between the top 3.

Mansell did well after his collision with Boutsen,making up about 12
places. However,he was let down by his machinery in traditional fashion
as was Prost many laps earlier. The 641 really is a s***box !!

Dave

    Monaco Musings
    
    I must have been watching a different race ;-)
    
    I reckoned their was plenty going on while Senna strolled away.
    First the Prost/Alesi/Berger battle, the Mansell's charge back through
    the field, then Bernard/Foitek and Alesi/Berger in the latter half.
    
    As to Senna's problem, he said he had a bit of an engine problem
    from about third distance, but didn't explain the dramatic slowing
    at the end.
    
    Alesi drove an excellent race, Berger drove well apart from the
    prattish move on Prost in the first part. I agree with Hunt that
    McHonda are being less than team perfect in not sorting out his
    accomodation, although JH did labour the point somewhat, shades
    of waste paper in radiators from a few years back!
    
    Ferrari do look in a state. The car has obviously got the power
    as Mansell showed in coming back after his nose job, but they clearly
    have major reliability problems. I can't see Mansell staying on
    at the end of the year at this rate. This morning's Guardian says
    that Uncle Ken has Alesi for at least another season, so I wouldn't
    be surprised to see Mansell back at Williams.
    
    The other topic to come up at monaco was pre-qualifying. So far
    this year 8 teams have scored points, Ferrari, Tyrrell, Williams,
    Brabham, Arrows, Benetton, McHonda and Lola. This leaves 5 slots
    for people to score upto and including Silverstone, and 11 teams.
    
    My prediction for the reshuffle:
    
    Osella, AGS, Coloni, EuroBrun and Life look certain to stay with
    an 8.30 start even if they make it to the race. That leaves 6 teams
    after 5 slots. 
    
    Lotus should make it into the points soon. I can't contemplate them
    having to prequalify. Leyton House are coming upto two circuits
    that suit them, Ricard and Silverstone, as long as they can get
    the car to hang together. Dallara? Pirro looks their best bet for
    some points. Minardi should get in, but only via Martini. Ligier?
    Goodish drivers but no reliability. Onyx look a total shambles at
    the moment.
    
    So my prediction is that either Dallara or Onyx will have to start
    taking the cold showers. BTW - anybody know what happens if there
    are less than 13 scorers? Do they count back or retain tha status
    quo?
    
    Prediction for Canada - Berger to break his duck, if he avoids trouble
    and cramp.
    
    Paul

    Berger had problems with his gear box (dead 1st gear). When he noticed
    them, he decided to "test drive" a few rounds. This explains why he
    made "a break" in the middle of his attacks on Alesi, and, also, why
    Alesi's car accelerated much better after the sharp bends.
    
    Senna experienced the same problems in the last laps, hence his
    decision to "handcarry" his car home.
    
    Reportingly yours,
    
    Chris

    Was it just me, or did anybody else see Bergers right front wheel
    locked up during his flight across the track just before his
    indiscretion with Prost ??
    
    Does anybody know if there was a problem with his car, or was it just a
    bad judgemental error ??
    

    Re -1
    
    I didn't think Berger braked at all. Its a shame we didn't get any
    shots from his camera of the incident.
    
    BTW - the "in car" shots of Senna were interesting, shame the angle
    meant you couldn't see his eyes. It was good to see him smiling
    and laughing after the race. Shame Ron Dennis stopped him spraying
    the Rainiers with shampoo!
    
    Paul
    

	My impressions -

	* A great drive by Alesi. The Tyrrell may be very quick but it's
	also extremely skittish. I was surprised that he didn't end up in the
	Armco. Perhaps the little skirmish he had with it at the start had
	an effect.

	* Both Ferraris had gear selection problems - not really surprising
	with the bashing Monaco gives gearboxes and the problems they've had
	with it in the past.

	* The Ferraris did much better than I expected, and the Benettons
	much worse.

	* I think Senna was just taking it easy, lots in hand.

	* I found the television direction very annoying, cutting from
	In car to fixed cameras all the time. I imagine he thought this
	was clever, but I'd rather one or t'other myself.

	* Did Piquet clash with Boutsen?. We didn't see it but judging by
	the race situation it wouldn't be surprising.

	-John

    The front right wheel of Berger car did not touch the ground just
    because the road there is going down strongly, and the most right
    part of the road is much lower than the left part. You could see it
    from the embedded camera in an other car coming from the back; just
    before arriving at the accident place and overtaking, the right front
    wheel couldn't touch the groud...
    
    According to me, the tv coverage, in France, was very good.
    
    Bruno.

    The end for the DFV?
    
    Looking ahead to next year (and later this year maybe) the following
    picture appears on engines, and it seems to spell the end for the
    faithful Cosworth that started out in 1967.
    
    Ferrari V12		Ferrari & Minardi
    Renault V10		Williams + 1 French team, probably Lola
    Honda V12		McLaren
    Honda V10		Tyrrell 
    Ford V8 or V12?	Benetton
    Porsche V?		Arrows
    Lambo V12		Lotus + Glas (Mexico)
    Ilmor V10		Leyton House
    Subaru V12		Coloni
    Yamaha V12		Brabham
    Neotech V12		EuroBrun
    Life W12		Life
    
    
    With Dallara rumoured to have Ferrari V12s in '92, this leaves only
    Osella, Onyx, AGS and Ligier with "customer" Cosworths. And Ligier
    and AGS must be possibles for a Renault. Of the '91 runners Eddie
    Jordan Racing and Reynard must be possibles for Honda V10s or Mugens
    in '92. There is also the Judd V10 which was scheduled for Leyton
    House.
    
    With all this activity, and drivers like Comas, McNish, Herbert,
    Salo, Hakkinen, Damon Hill, Motormindi (sp?) and the Brazilians
    Palhares and Fittipaldi coming along, F1 must be in the best shape
    its been in for a very long time. 
    
    Now if there were only a few more races..........
    
    
    Paul

    
    RE: .449, 450, and probably others . . .
    
    As a Ferrari fanatic, I'm as disappointed as anyone.  BUT, if the 640,
    or 641, or 641/2 were a McLaren or Williams, it would be a worldbeater.
    In other words, if all Ferrari had to do was install a Renault or Honda
    engine/trans unit and race, they'd be nearly invincible.  As far as
    I've heard and read, the "s**tbox" is one of the best, if not THE best
    chassis in F1.  Rationalizing, I suppose.  But maybe F1 has reached the
    point where the technology is so complex that no one group is capable
    of doing the entire car.  Currently, only Ferrari does design, build,
    test, and develop the entire car.  (Note that I put "develop" last!)
    
    Perhaps Fiat agrees.  With the Minardi deal, Fiat/Ferrari move toward
    the situation Renault and Honda are in:  just focus on one part of the
    car.  Ideally, Honda wins races; McLaren (rarely) loses them.  Another
    note recently listed the future F1 lineup -- a wonderful array of
    engines and "kit cars," but only one complete car.
    
    As recent as a few days ago there were still articles being printed on
    "What's Wrong with the US GP."  The comparison of Monaco and Indy, run
    on the same day, is a partial answer.  At Indy, lots of racing, which
    we in America take to mean "passing," and, especially "lead changes."
    (Forgive me for the sacrilege.)  At Monaco, the polesitter led every
    foot of the way, was never pushed, much less passed.  The second
    qualifier stayed in second as long as he lasted.  Thereafter, second
    and third never changed.  Monaco is a special instance, but few F1
    races feature lead changes.  Even more rare is the Alesi-Senna sort
    of pass-repass scenario.  Americans demand that sort of action, or are
    at least accutomed to seeing it.  On Indy:  the cars are not at the F1
    level, but they are very good, with chassis from March, Lola, and
    Penske, and engines from Chevrolet/Ilmor, Cosworth, Judd, Porsche, and
    Alfa Romeo (and Buick).  The drivers are not quite at the F1 level,
    either, but they are fast and generally competent -- no Senna, but no
    Arnoux or De Cesaris, either.
    
    Much as I love F1, some of races over the past few seasons have been
    boring high-speed parades, with no real question of who would win.
    
    Looking forward to the Ferrari "supermotore,"
    
    Don 
       

    I've been away for three weeks so just catching up with all this stuff.
    
    Re Imola : (going back a bit!) Senna's problem was apparently that a
    stone got flipped up and jammed between brake caliper and wheel, neatly
    machining the edge of the rim away and then damaging the brakes as well 
    as letting the tyre down!! Re the Berger/Mansell incident, I think it
    was one of those racing accidents ; Mansell had obviously worked his
    manoevre out and came out of the previous left-hander with a flier on
    Berger. The Austrian was caught completely unawares and moved over on
    his usual line not realising the Ferrari was alongside. As for those
    Mansell-knockers who say it was a crazy place to overtake, just look at
    how many places there are to overtake - that was one where a lot of the
    slower cars were passed on the outside of the next right-hander.
    Mansell was just setting himself up to come alongside on the
    right-hander so he would be on the correct racing line for the next
    left. It's motor-RACING, for goodness sakes!!
    
    Monaco was interesting, though not particularly exciting. Senna (much
    as I dislike him "personally") is a true genious in the car - he was
    head and shoulders above everyone else on the day. Great drives also
    from Alesi and Berger (gutsy) as well as Mansell. If only Ferrari could
    get the thing to hang together..... Thought Alesi's move on Prost in
    race 1 was sheer brilliance - Berger's sheer suicide. His right front
    WAS locked up from way back but there wasn't a snowball in hell's
    chance of getting through that late in the corner from where he was
    (about 3 cars lengths back when he started the move). Thought Piquet's
    "spin" quite typical of the way he "races" at circuits like Monaco..
    
    	Much as would like McHonda to be beaten this year, I am beginning
    to get the queasy feeling that noone is going to overhaul Senna....
    
    Colin

    Re -2
    
    I too am a Ferrari fan. My father worked for the UK importer so
    I grew up with them. Unfortunately they weren't provided as company
    cars! I am really disappointed to see Ferrari not being able to
    tackle McLaren head on, but equally glad to see Williams taking
    up the fight again.
    
    Ferrari's have always been a touch fragile and idiosyncratic and
    have usually been driven best by drivers with flair rather than
    the calculating "pro's". Villeneuve is the obvious example, but
    also Regga, Ickx, Andretti, Berger, Surtees etc add to the point.
    Scheckter and Lauda are exceptions but they also coincided with
    very good cars. For this reason I reckon Mansell will do better
    over the season that Prost in terms of laps lead, charging drives
    etc. He suits Ferrari. Prost is too detached and clinical.
    
    It would be interesting to see how Senna fared at Maranello. A lot
    would depend on his attitude to the challenge. If he still has the
    tenacity that allowed him to make the Toleman fly he could do very
    well.
    
    As to the return of kit cars, I agree it looks like that on the
    surface, but its not really like the Cosworth/Hewland/Firestone/Joe
    Bloggs aluminium days (anybody else remember the Connew?) The major
    engine manufacturers work very closely with the constructors and
    many of the deals are exclusive. It wouldn't surprise me for the
    cars to ultimately become called by the engines. Coloni is already
    owned by Subaru (mostly)
    
    As to racing in the US, Prix Editions makes an interesting point.
    Apparently market research shows that the average GP fan is both
    younger and better educated than the average CART/NASCAR fan, so
    pitching at them is not going to get very far. Equally, a desert
    cowboy town like Phoenix will not draw the right sort of fan. The
    piece makes a good case for Road Atlanta, but also, presumably,
    the possibility of a San Diego street circuit would be similar if
    not as good. We were surprised by the knowledge of the US fans we
    met at Phoenix, but all were from out of town. They were also young
    (thirtysomething young) and many had been to Europe for races.
    
    F1 needs the US more than the US needs F1, but the need a proper
    plan and circuit, and ideally US drivers. If they are touting for
    a US front man I might just be persuaded.....
    
    
    Paul

Thursday 24 May 1990, dry and sunny

1 Pre-qualifications

- half of the circuit has been re-surfaced, far less bumpy this year.
  Difficult to predict times since no-one really knows what sort of grip
  to expect from the new tarmac.

- truly impressed by Aguri Suzuki and the Larrousse-Lamborghini. I think
  he managed his best lap time in about 10 laps and was pre-qualified.
  Eric Bernard did a good job too.

- The Subaru-Coloni (or Coloni-Subaru) is improving. Bertrand Gachot did
  3 laps (before an oil pipe broke). It is almost official that Subaru
  will stop the Coloni experience.

- The Life is improving too : 8 laps before Bruno Giacomelli stopped at 
  the swimming pool (after having generously spilled oil about everywhere).
  The Rocchi W12 makes an odd V12 noise, very different from the MGN W12.

- Moreno got the Eurobrun in the list. Mr Brun has failed to honor a few
  invoices and the Neotech V12 is gone. No real hopes for the near future.
  Claudio Langes is having a good time, but only one hour at a time.

2 Morning untimed practice session

- Ferrari : strange, strange ! The V12 noise is exactly identical to the
  Lambo V12, making it impossible to know what car just climbed the hill
  after Ste Devote (Ferrari ? Lotus ? Larrousse ?). Except that the Ferrari
  had the SLOWEST gearchange of all. Eventually Ferrari explained they had
  made that change in the gearbox program in order to gain in reliability.

- Beautiful (as always) driving by Derek Warwick with very good lap times.

- The 2 Onyx drivers (surprisingly) did things in the right order: learn
  the circuit first. They managed good times.

- As already well known Alesi was head and shoulders above the non-McLaren
  field. For his 1st Monaco GP (he ran there in F3) he did much better
  than anyone could expect with 1'22.7 only .4s slower than Senna's pole
  time last year. Best lap of the session.

- Senna took it easy, tuning his car. Very much like Prost. The real
  hard chargers were Mansell and Berger. 

3 Afternoon 1st official qualifying session

- Alesi tried hard to re-do his previous performance but stayed a little
  bit under. I dont really think that the car has a significant advantage
  over the competition, but I'm sure that Alesi is certainly enthusiastic
  in his driving. A new master driver ! A new Senna ?

- Senna did a superb lap time on lap 3. 1'21"8 beating last year's pole
  time. 10 minutes before the end of the session he went again and did 1'21"7.
  It's always extremely funny to see Senna, supposedly running slow, pass
  cars (in their fast laps) while he completes his slow-down lap (or warm-up)

- Both Williams drivers adopted a very smooth "Prost" style.

- The Footwork-Arrows are just inexistent. I wonder what Porsche people 
  think when they see how bad the cars are. Similar comment about the
  Leyton House cars, although they say that they think they will find the
  bug in the chassis one day.   

4 Saturday, last F1 qualifying session and F3 race

- thanks to TMC I could watch the last qualifying hour live. Senna did it
  again, breaking his record at 1st attempt. 10 minutes before the end he
  tried again and I am pretty sure that he would have done under 1'21 had he
  not found a slow car on his way at La Rascasse (Anthony Noghes corner).

- F3 race under pouring rain. Laurent Aiello was definitely the best driver
  on the wet track, lapping a full 1sec faster than everybody else, and 
  making no mistakes. German lady Ellen Lohr came in second. Olivier Beretta
  3rd on home circuit. British, German, Italian and French F3 stars disap-
  -peared early. Winning the Monaco F3 race is the assurance of getting a 
  F1 seat later on (Patrese, Senna, Prost, Alesi, ...). Aiello passed the
  exam in extremely severe conditions.

	It's an interesting question as to whether it's Alesi or the
	Tyrrell that's actually quick. Probably the answer is a 
	combination of both, but to what extent?.

	It would appear that the car is about 7% (my estimate) down on
	power in comparison with the big boys but manages to run close
	to them particularly on tight circuits. It must, I think, have 
	"something" to be able to do so.

	Alesi seems to be worth 2 secs a lap over Nakajima, but this was
	also the gap when he was teamed with other top drivers. This 
	suggests to me that Alesi is as quick as anyone but also that
	the Tyrrell is a quick car too, otherwise it wouldn't be able
	to keep up with the likes of McLaren, Ferrari which are also
	driven by quick drivers.

	If the others don't catch up in the chassis department before
	next season the Honda powered Tyrrell will be the quickest
	car on the circuits. However there's a long time to go yet!.

	-John (who expects to see more cars with this aerodynamic
	arrangement soon)

    re -2
    
    Thanks for the informative practice report, Patrick. I wonder why
    Ferrari don't just put the gearbox on ice and revert to a "normal"
    gearchange - it doesn't seem to give them any significant advantage,
    even getting away from the lights or powering away from a tight 1st
    gear corner, and it certainly adds a whole new dimension of
    unreliability to the car.
    
    It's interesting that many of these "advances" (I'm thinking of
    active/reactive suspensions recently and multi-wheels and 4wd a few 
    years ago) are played around with for a while to try and gain an
    advantage and then shelved. Lotus, Williams and Benetton are three
    manufacturers who have either raced or tested active/reactive
    suspension systems in recent years but decline to use them as they
    offer (apparently) not enough of an advantage to outweigh the
    disadvantages of more complexity, weight and unreliability.
    
    I agree that Alesi is largely what makes the Tyrrell work although
    there must be something in the aerodynamics to help it along. However,
    at a circuit such as Monaco, it must be more to do with a good solid
    "chassis" and suspension design allowing the car to be set-up and
    adjusted easily. How many times has it happened that successful teams
    (eg Lotus) have scuppered themselves making a car that is too difficult
    to set-up properly or easily? 
    
    The thing is that, apparently, the new nose is not such a simple thing
    to copy, as the car has been designed that way from the beginning. For
    a team to try and adapt to this design mid-season would be difficult if
    not impossible. The Tyrrell nose starts angling upwards from well
    behind the front wheels with the flat underbody extended forward so as
    to comply with the rule that states that the underbody must extend as
    far forward as the rear of the front tyres. The whole front end of the
    car is therefore designed around the concept. Next year may see some
    imitations but I'm not sure anyone will/can do anything this year.
    
    	Canadian G.P. this coming weekend - last year the Williams twins
    came in 1-2 after Prost retired and Senna had problems. Hope they do
    the same this year!
    
    Colin

	Just to clarify what I didn't say too clearly before re. the
	Tyrrell. 

	The second place in the US was of course with the 'old' car
	so it's not just a question of the aerodynamics that makes
	it quick, but also the general chassis design.

	The flat plate under the nose section on the new car is, of
	course, the main element of it's design. To get the best ground
	effect with a flat bottom and no skirts the designers try to
	extract as much air from under the car as possible without
	increasing the drag. Mainly this is done by the undertray at
	the rear, which is sculptured as a venturi, but Tyrrell seem
	also to be trying to redirect the airflow at the front away
	to the side of the car by the section of bodywork above the
	flat section thus producing an outward flow which will pull
	air from under the car by it's momentum.

	It seems to work, but only they really know by how much, from
	their comparisons with the earlier car.

	-John

    1 - 26
    2 - 30
    3 - Victories in a season
    4 - Regazzoni
    5 - Barnard
    

    Re trivia
    
    The one I'm not sure of is 3 - they've definitely done the most GPs,
    and they definitely haven't won the most in a season (McLaren), but I
    don't know about most poles.

    Nigel's answers look pretty good to me.  Prost won his first GP on
    Jul 5, 1981, if you can get his birthdate, the first one is easy.
    
    As for #3, McLaren has the record for most victories in a season,
    but I haven't been keeping track of poles so I can't say who has
    that one.
    
    Prost won 9 GPs for Renault, then 30 for McLaren (19 with TAG/Porsche
    power and 11 with Honda power) and the last one for Ferrari.
        
    Good luck.
    
    Dave
    
    ps - I'll be happy just with a test drive....:-)

    This week's gossip, pre-Canada
    
    Langes has left EuroBrun by mutual agreement. No confirmation of
    a replacement, although Mark Blundell is in heavy discussions about
    the drive. Another name mentioned is Marco Greco.
    
    Williams are reported to be talking to Al Unser Jr about next year
    (this is from the US press) and also Alesi as a help to keeping
    Renault exclusivity. His Tyrrell buy-out clause is reputed to be
    L1.2m.
    
    Larrousse have signed up with Lola again for next year.
    
    Berger is starting a campaign for FISA to enforce minimum cockpit
    lengths so that drivers can be over 5'9" tall.
    
    Alboreto rumoured to be thinking about jacking it in completely.
    
    Life talking to Lotus and Brabham about buying old Judd engines.
    
    Ricard testing saw Prost fastest overall by .1 from Senna. Senna
    did 222 laps over the two days, including running a race distance
    at 4sec/lap faster than last year. Martin Donnelly set yhe fastest
    time on Day 1.
    
    Lotus possibly to lose Camel sponsorship as RJ Reynolds are heavily
    into the Peugeot WSPC project. - At least this would mean they would
    be back to a decent colour!
    
    Mexican Glas team is due to give demo runs at Mexican GP in two
    weeks.
    
    Hungaroring is likely to lose its race after this year. Its 5 year
    contract runs out after the '90 race, and Austria is rumoured to
    be back for 91. Shame one good circuit has to give way to another.
    
    
    Prediction for Sunday:
    
    Senna to get a run for his money from the Ferrari's, with maybe
    Mansell getting it together. Also, Lotus will ge a top 6 finish.
    Alesi to be best V8 runner (surprise, surprise!)
    
    Paul 

    Predictions for Montreal: Ferrarri taking top honours and another
    Tyrrel/McLaren duel
    
    	regards  George Frost

    - the Paul Ricard circuit has finally been totally resurfaced. The
      old (original) abrasive surface is gone. A few corners have been
      modified and curbs smoothed (the pif-paf is much faster than before)
      The tyres should not suffer, that was the biggest problem.
    
    - I have the best lap times of last week FOCA testing at Ricard
      but, @%#\^ not with me at present. I'll put them in another reply.
      Prost did his record lap with 1) race tyres and 2) some amount
      of petrol : which makes me think that they still haven't found
      the bug in the real axle. Otherwide Prost declared that his car
      was perfect  (ha ha ha ... !). Ferrari should have their famous
      super engine ready at Ricard precisely. At Montreal they will
      probably be using the early season engine or the Monaco version.
    
    - Mr Vita (Life) is looking for funds. He apparently has found a
      sponsor from behind the iron curtain. A russian consortium by
      a name I can't pronounce has promised some rubles ...
    
    - Alesi (runmour rumour) is on pole for a McLaren seat next year.
      The other point is that Alesi himself is pretty sure of driving
      a Honda powered car next year.
    
    - Erik Comas who started the Pau F3000 GP on pole (and eventually
      ran out of the track) announced that he will not come back to
      Pau in 1991 : reason ? he'll be a full time F1 driver by then.
      No other details
    
    Cheers,                      Patrick  

    re George "Ferrari top honors":
    
    Stop sniffing that stuff

    Didn't stay up to watch the race last night but sneaked a look at the
    results this morning. Another win for Senna!
    
    1. Senna
    2. Piquet!!
    3. Mansell (who apparently came back through the field)
    4. Berger (incl 1 minute penalty for some infringement at the start)
    5. Prost (pipped by a couple of hundreths od a second by Berger)
    6. Warwick (goos news for Lotus fans)
    
    	Senna now leads the driver's championship by 12 points from Berger and
    McLaren the constructors' by 29 points from Ferrari. Fait accomplis??

    Well, fine race for Berger, No1 on the track. He made the right
    move being the 1st to stop for slicks, finishing the GP with a 40sec
    lead on Senna. The 1min penalty is only justice, even if this time
    he jumped the start by a tenth of a second (TF1 showed he had moved
    only less than half of the McLaren when the light turned green).
    These moves can be very dangerous and the race director was right
    in showing the whole field that the game was over.

    Berger drove an excellent race considering he didn't have anybody
    to race against for a lot of the time. I hope he can keep it *all*
    together next time and run at the front properly.
    
    I was disappointed in the performance of the Williams team yesterday,
    after Imola I thought they would be a force for the rest of the
    season, but they seem to have gone off the boil.
    
    Alesi's shunt could have been much worse. It wouldn't have taken
    much more speed to have launched him over the barrier and into the
    grandstand. Its interesting to note that Senna, Nannini and Alesi
    all lost it at the same point, with the track getting progressively
    drier. Senna, with the wettest surface, was the one who didn't lose
    it.
    
    Patrick, have you got the full classification? I saw Capelli still
    running at the end, first Leyton House finish since phoenix I think.
    
    Good to see Lotus get a point and hence avoid prequalifying for
    the second half of the season. Does anybody know the precise rules
    for the change over after Silverstone? So far 9 teams have scored
    points. Onyx, Dallara, L/House, Minardi and Ligier have no points
    and aren't prequalifying.
    
    There are 4 slots left, and of the current prequalifiers Life and
    Coloni are unlikely to start. EuroBrun and AGS may get a start but
    are unlikely to score, and Osella will probably start but probably
    not score. If they the elimination on countback, the last 4 scorers
    of last season would be Minardi (Australia), Onyx (Portugal), Ligier
    (France) and Dallara (Canada). Of the rest, AGS last scored in Mexico
    '89 and L/House in Brazil '89.
    
    With three races left and at least 4 places at each probably to
    be filled by McHonda/Ferrari/Williams/Benetton that leaves about
    6 points slots left. 
    
    As you might have guessed, I'm praying for Leyton House at the moment!!
    
    Paul

    - The main problem in Montreal was the race marshalls or the lack
    of real marshalls to be precise. I don't have the exact details
    but the report I heard says that the whole GP organisation has been
    in trouble until the last minute before the start. One of the problems
    is that the marshalls decided to quit (resign). An alternate troop
    of "marshalls" was put in place and somewhat trained at the last
    minute.
    
    - During the GP this lack of marshalls was obvious:
    
    	- PL Martini's Minardi (spun at 1st corner on lap 1) stayed
    there for a couple of laps.
    	- Nannini's Benetton was not removed from a very dangerous place
    after hitting the tyres/guardrail
    	- Alesi's Tyrrell ran out of the track at exactly the same place
    hitting the Benetton
    	- Very rarely did I see flags (almost no blue flags although
    there was a lot of overtaking)
    	- a white flag was deployed early in the race to warn drivers
    of the presence of a slow car on the track. Routine ? well the slow
    car was actually a ROAD CAR ! Maybe these guys don't know that pace
    cars don't exist in F1 rules ...
    
    - Prost declared at the press conference after the race that his
    team forgot to convert his car for dry track when he made his stop
    for slicks. The airscoops leading fresh air to the brakes were still
    covered with tape. Eventually he could NOT keep up with Piquet and 
    Mansell.
    
    - Grouillard should have received the black flag for dangerous driving
    this time. Olivier obviously did not look at his mirrors.
                                                             
    - Boutsen tried to establish his reputation as rain driver. This
    time he made a terrible mistake (trying to overtake Prost and brake
    on the wet part of track) and violently hit Larini.
    
    - Alesi did a fine job in the early laps. Eventually he made the
    same mistake as Boutsen and Nannini, spun and slid out of the track
    demolishing his car.

    - When the track dried the top drivers lapped in the 1'23"-1'24"
    bracket, which is pretty fast. The ideal line dried quickly but the rest
    of the track was still wet at places, especially in braking areas.
    
    - Senna (rain master of the past) in contrast had a very careful
    driving waiting several laps behind a car before overtaking. He
    made absolutely no mistakes.
    
    - But the king of Montreal was definitely Berger. Next time wait
    for the green light Gerhard !

    Re -1
    
    I agree about the marshalls. One shot early in the race showed the
    marshalls at the scene of Martini's off waving at the cars to slow
    down with their hands! No sign of a yellow flag. Also, Caffi (I
    think) did a briilaint job of baulking Mansell. Nige looked well
    wound up, shaking his fist violently.
    
    The track also looked very bumpy. Apparently they have promised
    to improve it for next year.
    
    Best comment -
    
    Murray (after an in-car shot of Piquet's tail) - And you can see
    the red hot spent gasses from Piquets Ford V8!!
    
    James - Actually Murray, I think that was his red tail light.
    
    

	It looks as if Benetton will have to be 'promoted' to the
	same class as McLaren, Ferrari and Williams. Funny how success
	follows John Barnard around.

	Also Lotus appear to have broken away from the also-rans and
	whilst not yet up with the front runners are improving race by
	race.

	Nobody's mentioned Piquet yet. He's clearly a rejuventated driver
	this year and drove a very solid and quick race. Did you notice
	that both Benettons had an adjustment made to their front
	suspension when they came in to change to slicks. This cost them
	the best part of 10 seconds on the others.

	Senna has been saying that the McLaren isn't so good this year.
	I noticed that they were running a great deal of wing on their
	cars to improve grip. The Honda power is necessary to overcome
	the drag. Williams too used a lot of wing but in their case
	it wasn't quite as successful, the car just doesn't seem to
	handle too well, it's very nervous still. Williams will do
	better on the fast circuits.

	Benetton are a car short for Mexico at the moment. Nanninis car
	way have had deranged rear suspension after it's off but when Alesi
	hit it the monocoque was smashed into 3 pieces. I wouldn't
	criticise the marshalls for not moving the car, since it was 30
	yards off the track and they (the marshalls) would have been in
	the firing line if another car had come their way. Better a
	smashed car than smashed marshalls. Of course at other circuits
	there'd have been a crane available.

	I wondered what was up with Prost, thanks for the info on the
	brakes, haven't heard that in the UK.

	-John

    re -1     that's what I meant John: no flags, no cranes. Apparently
    the resignation of the whole team was because of financial dispute.

    Re Piquet
    
    Its amazing what $/points makes a driver do :-)
    
    The other interesting bit is Piquet's previous aversion to Ford
    power. If memory serves me rightly this was one of the reasons for
    him quitting Brabham for Williams. I bet he's looking forward to
    the rest of the season with the V8 behind him now.
    
    Paul

    The figure I've heard is 50,000 US $ per point. 
    
    Can you confirm ?

    If memory serves, he's got 12 points so far, so that makes $600K.
    Assuming he carries on at his present rate he'll end up on about40
    points, or $2 million. If Senna goes for $5m+ that would be about
    right!
    
    Paul
    

	Motoring News reckoned that Piquet's dollars for points scheme
	was exaggerated. They say it's $10,000 per point.

	Anyway he's doubtless sufficiently well off not to be that 
	motivated by the money. Now that the car is competitive he
	seems to be taking interest again.

	-John

    According to this am's Gruaniad, Piquet's retainer is $1m, plus
    $100k per point. They do say its "reputed" tho'.
    
    Either way, I could live on a $1m retainer.
    
    Paul

    1.  Senna	McLaren		1h42'56.400
    2.  Piquet		Benetton		10.497 behind
    3.  Mansell		Ferrari			13.385
    4.  Berger 		McLaren			14.854
    5.  Prost  		Ferrari			15.820
    6.  Warwick		Lotus			2 laps       
    7.  Modena 		Brabham			2 laps
    8.  Caffi		Footwork		2 laps
    9.  Bernard		Larrousse		3 laps
    10. Capelli 	Leyton House		3 laps
    11. Nakajima	Tyrrell			3 laps
    12. Suzuki		Larrousse		4 laps
               
    Best lap: Berger, last lap of the race 1'22"... (2 sec slower than
    pole, allowing him to "pass" Prost on the finish line).

	Personally I wouldn't trust the Grauniad as far as they can
	spell it. The Times today says 'reputed to be $12,000/point.

	Anyone know what happened to Nannini. He was leading by 15 secs
	or so when he came in for tyres, but never reappeared in the
	top 6 (in the highlights that is) before spinning off.

	-John

    Re -1
    
    He had a *very* long pit stop, which dropped him down. Also Murray
    quoted Senna as being around 4 sec (I think) a lap quicker on slicks
    so that would have compounded his poor position.
    
    BTW
    
    The Guardian's source is Alan Henry, who should know what he's talking
    about.
    
    Paul
    

>    The Guardian's source is Alan Henry, who should know what he's talking
>    about.
    
	I must say that I've always found AH to be one of the best F1
	commentators. The Telegraph says it's $100,000 a point too but
	I still don't believe it!.

	It seemed looking at the highlights that Nannini must have lost
	a minute or more to have dropped back so far. I do wish the Beeb
	would show the whole race.

	-John    

    I'm about to sign up for a local cable service so I can get Eurosport.
    If the Beeb is showing a GP live I'll still watch their transmission,
    but it will give me another option for races like Canada, Mexico
    etc.
    
    Re Piquet
    
    I knew there was something I meant to ask him at Brands when he
    was in the pit-lane at linchtime ;-)
    
    Paul

    I watched the GP live on TMC, taped TF1, and watched the tape
    yesterday. The good thing about TF1 is that they have a flying 
    reporter with HF radio in the pits. About Nannini I think I heard 
    them say that he stopped a second time shortly after his wet --> dry 
    tyres change. Probably something wrong with the anti-roll bars or
    aerodynamics settings ... exactly what happened to Prost (but he
    did not want to stop).
    
    I also heard Boutsen live, after he walked back to the Williams
    pits, declare something like: "it was entirely my fault, I made a
    terrible mistake, sorry about that Nicola". Thierry is a reliable,
    careful and honest driver.

    ESPN reported some races back that Piquet gets $100k per point.
    
    Also read recently about Prost's contract:  if HE chooses to leave at
    the end of the year, he can NOT drive for another F1 team next year.
    If Ferrari chooses to drop him, he can drive for anyone.
    
    Don

    ESPN said thast Nannini stopped the second time because he had a
    deflating tire, front I think.
    
    Dave

	Got to read the Autosport report on Canada. Apparently Nannini
	was even more unlucky than it seems at first sight. He emerged
	from the pits in 3rd position on the road (2nd really) and 
	immediately hit a 'groundhog' which damaged a wing and caused
	a puncture - hence a long, long pitstop.

	I don't know for certain what a groundhog is but I'd guess it's
	one of those things with spikes on it's back that we call a
	hedgehog. Either way it must have been somewhat blind and deaf.

	Like Prost, Patrese had brake problems eventually causing the
	retirement, as did Warwick and some others. Warwick also had
	problems with a loose undertray, another problem that was suffered
	by several cars, presumably on account of the bumpy track.

	Fastest lap of the race was set by Berger on the very last lap.
	The other leading competitors also set their best times at the
	end of the race (dry track, low fuel load) but the second fastest
	of all was Boutsen, with a time set on lap 19 (of 70)!. This
	was the lap before he spun off and when the track still had just
	a dry line. One can only speculate as to what might have happened
	if he'd kept going. It's very uncharacteristic of Boutsen to do
	something silly like that, and the Williams team weren't impressed.

	Alesi was described as spending the whole weekend "as an accident
	waiting to happen", or maybe this was being wise after the event.

	-John

	The good thing about the racing this year has been that it's
	a lot closer than we've been used to for a long while. It also
	seems that it is destined to get closer yet.

	When the circus returns to Europe Benetton will run the latest
	Ford-Cosworth with more top end power, Ferrari may have their
	latest engine ready and Williams expect the improved Renault too.
	Given that these teams are already snapping about the heels of
	McLaren one or more of them might be able to tip the balance.
	Of course there is a new Honda V12 in the offing but it's some
	way back on the other engine developments.

	I would guess that Senna, now with a healthy lead and aware of
	the McLaren's diminishing superiority will be going all out for
	a win in Mexico whilst the going is good. Berger may have something
	to say about this and Williams will want to make amends for the
	zero score from Canada. Williams seem best placed to challenge
	on this circuit, but not by much from Ferrari, Benetton. I also
	look forward to another good performance from Lotus who are
	obviously on the up at present. Alesi will have to settle for
	midfield.

	-John

	(That should ensure that Senna doesn't win!)

    Given the altitude, the multi-cylinder cars (yes I know they've
    all got lots, but you know what I mean), should have a power advantage.
    
    From memory, the circuit is also pretty fast, which should favour
    the V12s a bit. McLaren's strong point has never been flat out speed.
    I'd like to see the Williams's up there but I still have doubts
    about the drivers. They don't seem to have it in them to win in
    a straight fight.
    
    Its good to see Lotus on the rise again, Donnelly must get in the
    points soon. The Lola's could do well also with the V12 power.
    
    My one doubt about the Benetton's would be whether they've got a
    new chassis ready to replace Nannini's Canadian wreck. Anybody know?
    On a similar topic, I saw a Leyton House on the M25 last week (on
    a trailer unfortunately) either coming from Heathrow or going to
    Gatwick. It could have been a display car, but it was on the opposite
    carriageway so I didn't get a close look.
           
    Anyone heard whether Suzuki will be fit after his Le Mans shunt?
    Also, after Langes's on lap/fine stopping exercise at Montreal,
    who's got the drive of the season in the EuroBrun?
    
    Prediction: (totally wrong probably)
    
    Senna
    Mansell
    Berger
    Warwick
    Nannini
    Bernard
    
    Alesi to crash out, taking someone with him. This will be his turning
    point and he will calm down before France.
    
    Paul

    In response to 837.494.
    
    A groundhog is a member of the marmot family, no it doesn't have
    spines or anything growing out of its body.  Think of a hedgehog,
    make it about 2-3 times bigger, give it shorter legs and no prickly
    things and you've got a Canadian groundhog.  What most people don't
    realize is that this was no regular groundhog.  His name was Nigel
    ;-)
    and he was paid off by a well known racer to run out in front a
    certain Brazillian McLaren race car driver ;-).  Unfortunately
    (unbeknownst) to Mr. Mansell he was a french ground hog and due
    to the language barriers common to French Canadian groundhogs mixed
    up the instuctions.
    
    Just thought I would clarify that little bit.
    
    Regards,
    A French Canadian groundhog trainer
     

	I'm not sure that having smaller cylinders is really an
	advantage at altitude, perhaps having the best engine
	management system is what really counts.

	I would guess that Honda have the best controls.

	-John

    I would like to stick my neck out and predict a 1-2 win for Ferrari
    in Mexico.  I think Paul is right about Alesi, he will crash and
    take Senna with him.
    
    Any other predictions out there.....only 3 more days to race day.
    
    Regards,
    
    A french Canadian groundhog trainer ;-)

    no predictions or anything, I just wanted to be the 500th reply.
    
    John ;-)

    FOUL CALL!

    Oh yeah... I'll race you to reply 1000..
    ;-)
    
    FCGT

    I stuck my neck out and predicted precisely that from note .499 for 
    Montreal.
    
    btw. Chris, its after my predictions that I sniff the glue.
    
    The reasoning is quite fundamental:
    
    	Five races into the season is still relatively early for all cars
    	excepting of course the well proven configurations.
    
    	The very short preseason preparation by Ferrari is being seen to 
    	start paying off. I believe that Prost's work can now be
    	appreciated. I'm not knocking the other and ex members of the team
    	but Prost can set up cars better than most.
    
    	Mclaren are showing signs of coming to the end of the road with the
    	present chassis, engine, team members and enthusiasm. Of course
    	they they are going fast, they have (over the last 3 years) had the
    	benefit of the best in the industry. That "best" is in the process
    	of dissipating.
    
    	Finance will I believe be a negative factor for Mclaren before the
    	season is halfway done.
    
    I predicted at the start of the season that Senna/Mclaren would
    have two clear wins - he's had three, we will see if he has any more. 
    We have all read the notes file about his dissatisfaction recently....
    
    So fans, I follow the prediction in .499
    
    	regards  George Frost
                                    
    
    
    
    

    I'll go for that, too. Can't help the funny feeling that AS could do it
    again, though....
    
    Colin

    A couple of very interesting (and probably inaccurate!) rumours
    from Autosport -
    
    * Mercedes have already tested an F1 chassis, power will be from
      a ceramic block, 3.5L V8
    
    * expect to see the Honda V12 in Silverstone testing in July
    
    Slightly more definate -
    
    Nannini being tipped for a seat at Minardi-Ferrari next year
    
    Eddie Jordan Racing advertising for F1 staff for their 1991 programme
    
    DAMS-Lola have postponed entry into F1 until 1992
    
    Reynard planning to have purpose built F1 factory for the 1992 season.
    
    Paul

	Sticking one's neck out over the result of a motor race is
	indeed very risky. The axe usually falls. Not only is it 
	necessary to assess the merits of all the contenders but
	also the vaguaries of mechanical relaibility, errant driving
	by others etc. and even it seems the intent of trained animal
	suicide squads.

	Anyway it hasn't stopped me before. After due consideration
	I reckon Mexico will be won by Boutsen, from Berger and
	Nannini. Senna will lead but go off in an overtaking manouvre,
	whilst both Ferraris will fail with blown motors. Piquet, at
	one time looking likely to win, suffers an off course excursion
	which puts him down to 4th. An attempted hit by a dive bombing
	condor fails when it's blown off course by the vortices from
	the cars. Speculation has it that the condor must have south
	american connections.

	-John

    OK...OK... I bet my weakest groundhog can take your best Condor
    anytime anywhere.....;-)
    
    But seriously now.... I think Ferrari has finally got this reliability
    problem out of the way.  Except for the tape over the break oulets
    (or what ever you call them) in Montreal, Prost would have been all
    over Senna.  If both Prost and Mansell finish (which they will)
    it will be a 1-2 finish.                 
    
    PLEASE NOTE: Since I am new to this F1 stuff I can afford to stick
    my neck out ;-)
    
    regards,
    FCGT

I'm going to go for Piquet, who will inerit the lead. Senna will go out
overtaking Nakajima when the helpless Tyrrell driver loses it the oil that
Mansell laid down two laps earlier, and unceremoniously punts Aryton off. 

Berger spins out trying too hard and flat spots his tyres.

Prost finds himself with a fistful of neutrals.

The two Williams jockey for position on the podium behind The Benetton, whilst 
Alessi finishes a lonely fourth.

Steve :-)

    >If both Prost and Mansell finish (which they will)
    >it will be a 1-2 finish.                 
    

	Give this man a prize !!!!


	Saw the , rather disjointed , coverage last night on Beeb 2. Does anyone
	know what happend to Mansell when he was charging after Senna in second 
	place while Prost was somewhere around eleventh. The race coverage 
	was suddenly live and we see Prost chasing after Senna and the Niglet is
	in third !??.

	Berger's passing manouvre on Mansell was, shall we say, a trifle messy.
	Mansell's re-passing manouvre on Berger was, IMHO, beautifull ! A very
	exciting last five minutes with Nigel and Gerhard showing that some
	drivers can still be entertaining !

	Gordon
	
	

    Great race! And good decision by the beeb to go live to the finish.
    Mansell & Berger brought back memories of Arnoux/Villeneuve at
    Zandvoort! 
    
    Mansell's move on Berger at the Peralta was superb, especially on
    dodgy tyres. According to the paper this a.m. Prost got by Mansell
    when Nige got boxed in behind two back markers. I would have loved
    to have seen Mansell chase down Prost if he hadn't have spun.
    
    Senna obviously made a tactical mistake in not pitting for tyres
    at some point. McHonda obviously underestimated Ferrari's reliability
    & speed. The two are clearly approaching level terms now. If Murray
    is to be believed Williams-Renualt have now got the most powerful
    engine, so its a shame they haven't got a fraction better drivers.
    Patrese & Boutsen are good, but have to be rated a little behind
    the top 4. Benetton also look a good bet with more Ford power coming
    at Ricard. Should be a great European tour this season.
    
    I'd be surprised if we didn't see the Honda V12 soon, as they are
    testing at Silverstone this week - isn't it also meant to be a new
    design McLaren too?
    
    Saturday's paper reckoned that Senna had now re-signed for two more
    years with McLaren. Also, Scabrioni(sp?) is leaving Ferrari and
    Steve Nichol will design the '91 car.
    
    Roll on Ricard & Silverstone! We'll even be able to watch Ricard
    rather than Wimbledon as we've signed up for cable this weekend!
    
    Paul
    
    ps - deepest sympathies to Leyton House, but at least no new teams
    scored points. 

	Ferrari did what they have long promised they would do on the high-speed
circuits and thoroughly trounced Marlboro McLaren-Honda on the road to score a
convincing and timely 1-2 victory.

	Alain Prost came through from a miserable 13th on the grid to work his 
way slowly and persistently through the field, passing both Mansell and Senna 
on the road to win by a comfortable 24s. As far as I could tell from the rather
scrappy TV highlights, he did not stop for tyres in a race where many people
did or suffered the consequences of not stopping. His second win of the season 
puts him equal 2nd (with Berger) in the Driver's Championship now just 8 points
behind Senna.

	Nigel Mansell, from 4th on the grid, had a tardy start and was lying 
only 7th in the early stages behind the two McLarens, the two Williams, 
Piquet's Benetton and cheeky Jean Alesi. Next thing we knew he was picking off 
the Williams' one at a time with Prost a little way behind in the order Senna,
Boutsen, Mansell, Patrese, Prost. Then, with no indication how it happened, we
were treated to the sight of Senna (who had held a comfortable 20s+ lead most of
the race, being hounded by both Ferraris with Prost now ahead of Mansell. They
both nipped through as Senna struggled for grip with obviously shot tyres before
Mansell almost threw it all away with a quick spin, allowing Senna back into 
2nd place. Not long after, only a handful of laps from home, the McLaren's
right rear gave up the struggle and Senna limped it all the way round only to 
retire at the pits.

	Gerhard Berger started the race from pole position again (alongside
Boutsen, I think), dumping Senna back to row two alongside Mansell but got 
jumped by the Williams at the start and pitted quite early on for a new set of 
tyres. His drive back through the field was totally unnoticed by the cameras
until he was suddenly right behind Mansell, who at this point was just 
recovering from his spin. With just a couple of laps to go, Gerhard 
slipstreamed the Ferrari down the long main straight, jinked out for the right-
hander at the end and slid up the inside with all four wheels locked up!! 
Mansell had to concede the corner to avoid being punted off but it obviously 
got to him, especially after the incident with Berger in Imola, and he tore 
after the McLaren in a very determined mood, driving round the outside of the 
McLaren at the incredibly fast 180 degree corner before the start/finish 
straight on the penultimate lap and hung on to finish about 1s ahead.

	Nannini never really featured in this race, being comprehensively
blown off by teammate Piquet in the early stages, Nelson getting as high as 2nd
before, apparently, stopping for tyres. The Benettons finished 4th and 6th,
sandwiching Boutsen's Williams, which just held off Piquet by less than 1 
second at the flag. Alesi finished 7th at a circuit where his power 
disadvantage showed up badly, while Donnelly and Warwick brought both Lotuses
to the flag in 8th and 10th places with Patrese's Williams in between.

	There are two more fast circuits following, Ricard (8th July) and 
Silverstone (15th). Alain Prost won both races for McLaren last year with
Senna failing to finish either while Mansell finished second each time in the
Ferrari with Berger failing to finish either!! Now wouldn't it be nice if
history could be repeated.....

    to .509
    
    Mansell continued charging after Senna. Prost was at this time about
    fifth.
    
    The race ran its course for about five laps with Mansell and Prost
    gaining on Senna. I recall seeing "Mansell from Senna - 13 secs.
    Prost from Mansell 1.58 secs.
    
    Prost rushed passed Mansell at a rather busy time (5 cars bunched) and
    from that time on started making really dramatic gains on Senna.
    
    Prost passed Senna, Mansel did the same on the next lap and .... Berger
    came charging up.
    
    Prost was consistently setting fastest lap at this time.
    Last lap and Berger takes Mansell for all of about 40 seconds, Mansell
    returns the compliment to Berger just before the last lefthander. 

Hmmm....

BBC coverage seems somewhat skimpy. Lets add some details that may help.

Patrese made best start.

Senna and Berger were cruising it; except Berger wrecked his tyres keeping up,
and pitted.

So, for the first half of race we had McHonda 1-2, (25 seconds gap), Piquet (
then 3 seconds gap), Williams twins, Nannini, Mansell - all in a train. Prost
was a long way back, but over a period of 15 laps caught up towards the back 
of the procession.

All cars' tyres started to go off, except Ferrari, who went past the cars in 
front of them in quick succession.

After overtaking Piquet for second place, Mansell was 7 seconds ahead of
Prost and 18 seconds behind Senna. Ferraris then proceeded to swap fastest lap, 
with Prost catching up ever so slightly. It was clear that, during the early
laps he had protected his tyres on this abrasive track.

Mansell got held up by Grouillard, allowing Prost to catch right up. Mansell
took him just before the straight - similar manoeuvre to the one pulled on
Berger; pulling out a couple of seconds on Prost. However, it was clear the
Prost was faster. Two laps later, on the main straight, Prost took Mansell
very, very well indeed, as they were going past two backmarkers.

All the time, they were pulling in Senna, who was now only 9 seconds ahead, and
cleary struggling. Both Ferraris overtook him a few laps later. Prost had
pulled out a 6 second lead on Mansell.

Mansell was determined to win, and tried too hard, spinning the car.
Unfortunately, the TV coverage missed the incident; but we did see him reverse
back onto the track - he had stopped inches from the barrier. Prost was now 24
seconds ahead.

The Berger/Mansell tussell has already been wel documented in this note.

Cheers

Steve

    For the first 15 minutes of the BBC coverage we hadn't a clue what
    was going on! After showing the start, with a lot of shots from
    Alboreto's car going backwards fast, there was a quick shot of Senna
    taking the lead. Then we cut to lap 10 with Senna 5 secs ahead of
    Berger. Next we knew it was Senna from Piquet, with no mention of
    what happened to Berger. Then, an in car shot with Gerhard and mention
    of his tyres. Then, a quick shot of Patrese pulling into the pits,
    and a quick cut to "And you join us live...."
    
    I would have liked a bit more coverage of the middle of the race,
    but I was glad they showed the end live. I guess that the beeb intended
    to keep editing on the fly, but took the decision to go live when
    the Ferrari's started catching Senna.
    
    Paul

    I would like to know what was being said between the drivers and
    the pits of both McHonda & Ferrari teams!
    
    A very entertaining last 10 minutes (or so) I thought.
    
    Martin.

The first part of the Beeb's coverage had me (and my wife) guessing, however,
once they swapped to live coverage for the last 9 laps we were completely
hooked.  I have to come clean and state that I am a fan of Mansell (my first
ever Grand Prix was watching Mansell win at Silverstone), so to watch him spin,
recover, get overtaken and then re-take 2nd was magic.  This had me on the
edge of my seat, cheering.

After last year's processions, I've got my tast back for watching them live,
anyone got any tickets for Silverstone?

Dave

    Re -1
    
    If you want grandstand tickets try Keith Prowse on 081-741 8999.
    You'll pay #15 over the odds but you're guaranteed a view. Otherwise,
    just turn up *very* early and pay at the gate. You should get a
    spot somewhere.
    
    Paul

The two Ferrari won the race, but IMHO they still don't have the power to beat
the McHondas. When the Ferrari started closing the gap between them and Senna
the TV commentators started saying that the Ferrari had improved their
performance and so on. I still don't believe it... 

I hadn't the chance to watch the whole race, but when I started watching it
Senna was leading and had a 18 sec advantage. Berger was 11th. Suddenly the
Ferrari started closing the gap. But Berger who was also driving a McHonda was
doing tremendously well. So well, that he even managed to be second for a short
period in that duel with Mansel. (Last season that was called dangerous 
driving !). The way Prost and Mansel went by Senna only shows that the McLaren
from Senna was having problems (which was showed later - tires). But the
recovery from Berger proves also that the Mclaren are doing alright. After all
the "old" Honda V10 will probably be replaced soon. The point that am trying to
make is that unless there are problems with the McHondas the other teams don't
stand much chances. The real surprise to me is Berger. I was impressed with the
images of the cam in his car. What a sensation! It was like flying real low 8-)

    The duel Mansel and Berger had, could have ended in a big accident.
    Mansell was absolutely wild after the risky manouvre of Berger.
    The image of his Ferrari quickly switching from left to right and
    left again behind Berger was amazing... The colour of his face must
    have been the same of his car. RED :-)) But the way he regained
    the second place. Only a great driver gets away with that.
    
    An exciting GP...
    
    Regards,
    
    RUI
regards,

RUI   
    

    Full result
    
    1  Prost 	Ferrari		1:32.35.783 Av speed 122.75mph
    2  Mansell	Ferrari		- 25.351s
    3  Berger	McLaren		- 25.530s
    4  Nannini	Benetton	- 41.099s
    5  Boutsen	Williams	- 46.669s
    6  Piquet	Benetton	- 46.943s
    7  Alesi	Tyrrell		- 49.077s
    8  Donnelly	Lotus		- 1:06.942s
    9  Patrese	Williams	- 1:09.918s
    10 Warwick	Lotus		1 lap
    11 Modena	Brabham		1 lap
    12 Martini	Minardi		1 lap
    13 de Cesaris Dallara	1 lap
    14 Barilla	Minardi		2 laps
    15 Foitek	Onyx		2 laps
    16 Larini	Ligier		2 laps
    17 Alboreto	Arrows		3 laps
    18 Alliot	Ligier		3 laps
    19 Grouillard Osella	4 laps
    20 Senna	McLaren		6 laps
    
    
    Standings
    
    Senna	31pts		McLaren		54pts
    Berger/			Ferrari		36pts
    Prost	23pts		Williams/
    Alesi/			Benetton	20pts
    Piquet/			Tyrrell		14pts
    Mansell	13pts		Brabham/
    Boutsen	11pts		Arrows		 2pts
    Patrese	 9pts		Larrouse/
    Nannini	 7pts		Lotus		 1pt
    Modena/
    Caffi	 2pts
    Nakajima/
    Bernard/
    Warwick	 1pt
    
    Very high reliability with 20 classified finishers. As Moreno was
    excluded before the start (I think) that's only 5 retirees, Brabham,
    Nakajima, Suzuki, Pirro and Lhetto.
    
    Paul 	
    

    It's part of the game !  Setting up the car properly is the way
    to win races. Prost has always been very good at it. From what I
    saw last night the 2 Ferrari's had the correct setup for the race
    (chassis height, flaps, rubber).
    
    The 2 McLarens were eating their tyres. My only question is "why
    didn't they stop Senna earlier ?". Remember Adelaide.
    
    The Ferraris ran fast and did not break. That's an interesting
    perspective for the coming fast circuits. 

RE: .518

RUI,
	Couldn't agree more. Senna was beaten my two special factors of the
Mexico circuit - a rough surface, and setup difficulties (slow corners mixed
with long straights). This will not happen often; and McLaren (particularly
Senna), will still be the team to beat in November.

	Dangerous driving? Well, if Mansell has learnt his lesson from last
year (when he and Senna started their shouting match - so publicising the
danger), then he and Berger will get away with these "incidents" (San Marino,
Mexico, ?). The lesson is to keep things quiet - not to give newspapers
criticisms to report/embellish. If the incidents do become publicised, then 
FISA will "step" in again.

	Finally, Berger is a terrific driver, phenomenally fast; and a nice 
guy as well; but he  definitely seems to lack race-craft. Every race, you know
that he will be hard on his tyres; and will be in trouble if the tyre wear
situation is "marginal". The wet track, which conserved his tyres, was why he
was so competitive in Canada. 

	Last night typified Berger. He wrecked his tyres keeping up with Senna.
Then, when he's caught Mansell up EASILY (Mansell of course had messed up
trying to keep up with Prost - but that's another story :-) ), rather than wait
a lap to overtake SAFELY, he tries to force it. I think that locking all four
whells up "flat-spotted" the tyres - that's my only explanation for how
Mansell was able to re-overtake him after being so much slower before.

	First, Congratulations to those noters who predicted a Ferrari
	1-2.

	Without repeating too much a lot that's been said before -

	* It was probably a great race, pity the BBC tele coverage was
	so abysmal.

	* Pirreli qualifiers were very superior producing a grid with
	Minardi, Brabham and Tyrrell all ahead of Prost. It couldn't last
	though and it didn't.

	* 9 cars finishing on the same lap must be a record going back a
	long way - good news for the racing.

	* Prost's victory was doubtless due to his skill in conserving
	tyres etc. They don't call him the professor for nothing. Even
	so there was a massive ring of blisters on his LH front.

	* Bergers stab at Mansell was akin to activities that were getting
	fines last year. It's funny how drivers can behave very reasonably
	for years and get ragged when they get a scent of the world
	championship.

	* Mansell's retaking of Berger was, well, amazing, and extremely
	risky, going off the racing line on the peralta like that.
	Lots of adrenalin flowing I fancy.

	* Mexico used to be a graveyard for engines back in the turbo era.
	They'd use the turbo boost to maintain power but the thin air didn't
	cool them. Now the opposite appears true, huge number of finishers.

	* A great result for the world championship, and some hugely 
	competitive racing expected when they get back to europe!.


	-John

    ESPN (USA cable coverage) showed the race tape delayed from midnite to
    2:00 am last night.
    
    They interviewed Ron Dennis after the race and he took 'credit' for the
    tactical error of not bringing Senna in for tires when he had the big
    lead - to get in and back out without losing position.
    
    	-Barry-
    

    I think it should be noted that a good driver will carry a lot of sway,
    before the start as to what tyres are needed for the conditions.
    
    Power or not, it was the Ferrari of Prost that consistently set fastest
    lap times.
    
    	regards  George Frost

    Well since everything has already been said, all I can say is my
    groundhog finally came through and got the right car. ;-)
    
    :-):-):-):-):-)
    
    Sorry I couldn't help laughing....what a race.  Unlike everybody
    in England us Canadians actually got to see the entire race, except
    for some short blackouts (like when Berger went for tires, and when
    Mansell spun out)...
    
    One of the most entertaining races in a long time!!!!!!
    
    Now can the Ferrari Frenchman win in France :-)
    
    Let's here from everyone can Ferrari take another 1-2....
    
    As an aside... where can I get 1 of those huge Ferrari flags I see
    at all the races.(It would look just wonderful as a backdrop to
    my collection 0f 12 Ferraris).
    
    FCGT
    

    Don't you need a reaaaaaly huuuuuge flag to act as a backdrop to your
    12 Ferraris.??
    
    

    Yes the flag has to be approximately 50 feet by about 75 feet....
    ;-).. And the collection is worth $58,000,000.00
    
    No I am just kidding the cars range in size from about 8 inches
    long to about 15 inches for the older formula racers.  But I am
    still interested in the flag.  Do they sell them at the races or
    would I be able to get one at one of those meetings of classic Ferraris
    (I think they call them Concourse D'Elegance or somehting like that)
    I have recently become a member of the FCA and look forward to
    seeing (finally) all the great cars I have only read about and built
    (on a small scale) ;-)
                                                    
    What a race eh......
                                                    
    Regards,
    FCGT
    

>       Sorry I couldn't help laughing....what a race.  Unlike everybody
>   in England us Canadians actually got to see the entire race, except
      
    Eurosport (satellite) covered the whole race live, but i can't say
    i was impressed by the "originating tv company" - we kept getting
    shots of enchiladas being fried, tacos being eaten etc.
    
    Someone must have paid a lot in backhanders to get their products
    advertised for free!
    
    mb
    

    Re -1
    
    Martin,
    
    What was the commentary etc like on Eurosport? Also what was the
    coverage of practice like?
    
    The reason I ask is that I'll be watching it from now on!
    
    Paul

RE -.1
Paul,
	There are good sides and bad sides to Eurosport.

	- All Grand Prix are shown live, from start to finish 
	  BUT...
	  they're constantly interrupted by adverts.

	- There are usually two half-hour programs on practice Friday night
	  and Saturday night
	  BUT...
	  the first twenty minutes is usually prepared stuff (interviews with
	  designers/drivers), leaving 10 minutes for practice. At some events,
	  ie. Canada - we were told, 25 minutes into the broadcast, that
	  technical difficulties prevented them showing practice!

	- Watson is a good, informed commentator (much better than Hunt, I 
	  reckon)
	  BUT...
	  Andrew Marriott is roughly equivalent to Murray Walker - without 
	  the humour (intentional, or not)


	  In summary, F1 coverage is very comprehensive - but can be somewhat
	  specious.

	- Other motor racing coverage. Turns you into a junkie! Over the
	  last couple of weekends I have had the "opportunity" to see:

	  - British Formula 3.
	  - German Formula 3
	  - WSPC - good coverage.
	  - F3000
	  - German Touring Car Championship
	  - World Championship Rallying.

	  And never mind if you missed the program 'cos they show it again and
	  again and again.....

	  The reason for the comprehensive coverage is that Eurosport is NOT
owned by Sky Channel - it is just beamed out of Sky's satellite (so Murdoch
would like you to think that he provides the service). It is owned by the EBU
(European Broadcasting Union), which is made up of the major national
broadcasting companies - like the BBC (40% interest), RAI (Italy), ARD(?)
(Germany) etc. They provide the programs which they are broadcasting on their
own network. So you get to hear Murray commentating on Formula 3 etc. etc.

Cheers

Steve

    Re -1
    
    Thanks for the info on Eurosport. I reckon we'll continue to watch
    the Beeb where possible, 'cos despite everything I do like Murray
    and James.
    
    The other stuuf is a great bonus though. Plus on our cable we get
    Screensport as well, so we get CART and NASCAR. When they're not
    racing round ovals, they're worth watching.
    
    Re Mexico
    
    I thing mentioned in the Observer was that Mexico's contract for
    next year hadn't been signed. Wonder where Bernie is thinking about
    taking them?
    
    Paul

    I'll go for another Ferrari 1-2. McLaren-Honda are temporarily down but
    certainly not out and they have proved that they have the consistency
    to stay on top for a long time (over several seasons). However, while
    it is hard to get to the top, it is even harder to stay there, so they
    say! I reckon Ferrari are on a roll and that the next two European
    races, on fast circuits which suit them, are going to be Ferrari
    benefits.
    
    Mansell is a very determined trier, never gives up, always pushes as
    hard as he can but has found a new maturity this year. Prost really
    drives with his head and is one of (the?) best setteruperrer of racing
    cars in the business. Senna is probably the best mixture of these two
    and undoubtedly the man to beat every time. Berger is like Mansell in
    his Williams days - almost there but too ragged, not consistent enough.
    
    So, two wins for Ferrari, at least one of them for Mansell. McLarens
    are thereabouts but reliability/accidents prevent a win. Williams and
    Benetton are up there, as is Alesi) and scoring points but not wins.
    
    Ok, shoot!
    
    Colin

    I agree that Ferrari will be the team to beat at Ricard. However,
    part of Prost's success on Sunday was due to the fact that he
    concentrated on race set up rather than fast times in practice.
    This was due to Ferrari still not being able to get their qualifiers
    to work. Maybe all the teams could learn something form this!!
    
    Anyway, I'd be surprised to see another tactical mistake by Team
    Perfect, unless it is a very major one - ie being paniced into using
    the V12 too early. The car should be testing at the FISA tyre tests
    at Silverstone late this week - anybody able to spy? It must be
    tempting for them to give it a go if it works "out of the box".
    
    On my favourite (and self-interested) hobby horse, I can't see any
    "minor" teams picking up points to avoid the 8am start at Ricrad
    or Silverstone. The big 4 (as we now have to say) are starting to
    look dominant, and when they fail Lotus and Tyrrell look to be able
    to pick up the pieces.
    
    So, looks like Ivan and Mauricio will have to get up a bit earlier
    on Fridays. I've got a Leyton House factory visit lined up for the
    Wednesday after Silverstone - that could be *very* depressing!
    
    Paul 

>    						Berger is like Mansell in
>    his Williams days - almost there but too ragged, not consistent enough.

Minor nitpick, I think you mean "early William's days". Mansell's two best 
years were at William's.

Dave.

	Yes, I wonder whether Prost was not much worried about his
	grid position last sunday. Mexico is probably the widest,
	easiest to pass circuit in the calendar. It's a pity some
	other circuits don't follow the lead.

	On France. Certainly it'll be close, but I doubt whether one
	good result makes Ferrari favourites. If Renault have some
	special engines up their sleeves they'll certaily bring them
	out for the home race, and Benetton will definitely be using
	the 'new' Cosworth (unless that is they used it in Mexico).
	Ferrari's 'super engine' still seems a bit doubtful. So many
	variables. I noticed that in Mexico the Williams left the
	Ferrari on the straight, but not the Benetton. This isn't just
	a question of HP but also the amount of wing the decided they
	needed. McLaren uses lots of wing, their cars handling isn't
	as good as the other leading contenders (it's the only one
	still using pull rod front suspension too) but the engine
	may still be the best.

	Anyway I'll go for this - Piquet, Boutsen, Prost.

	-John

    Agreed with .535.
    If anything forecasting now becomes more difficult since 3 or 4 teams
    are "in the running".
    
    However Paul Ricard is one of the Prost favourites and has been noted,
    one of the fastest circuits. So (barring Murphy) the winner will be the
    the driver with the most consistant times even though another car may
    have the straight line performance edge.
    
    My money?		Ferrari - Prost
        		Williams - Piquet
    			McLaren	- Senna
    			McLaren - Berger
    	

    I'm a little late in the game: in the US, we had the ESPN broadcast a
    canned verion at midnight, which I canned and watched yesterday.
    
    We did have an advantage over you Brits: we got to see the whole race
    (minus commercials). Except that the Mexican cameramen made some really
    wierd choices, often being out of the action. For instance, we say
    Prost get alongside Patrese at the end of the staight, but the camera
    stayed on an odd lapped car, and we didn't see the pass. There were a
    number of passes that happened just off screen.
    
    On the other hand, seeing the whole action can fill in some holes:
    
    On Prost/Mansell: we didn't see much of the professor before the third
    of the race, but he was apparently making ground from his abismal start
    point. We caught up with the actions with the the two red cars 5 and
    6th - there was a nice view of the two Williams and the two ferraris,
    all in the same staight.
    
    At one point, Prost was all over Mansell, clearly faster (he had
    probably been consistently faster all along to catch up to 6th in the
    first place). Then they came on Patresse, Mansell got around relatively
    easily, but Prost was held up very long, with Patresse apparently very
    uncooperative. In particular, you could see the Williams
    windshield-wipping in the end of the pit straight, keeping Prost
    behind, and there were a couple of attempted passes from Prost where it
    really looked like Patresse was chopping him off rather nastilly.
    
    In any case, that gave Mansell breathing space - I think he took
    Boutsen before Prost got around Patrese. When Prost finally got around
    first one Williams then the other, he was again making rapid ground. In
    particular, he apparently was some 6s down on his teammate after
    getting around both Williams, and caught up in very few laps - he was
    gaining over a second a lap. Passing Mansell was quite clean, and he
    pulled away impressively fast (only to be caught up when he was held up
    by Senna for a few laps).
    
    Piquet dropped out at one point for a tyre change.
    
    The end of the race was beautiful. I think this is the first time we
    see Prost actually pass Senna for a long time. The ease was quite
    suprising.
    
    On an interview, Ron Denis said that the McHonda did not suffer from
    tyre wear, but from a puncture - something made more probable by the
    fact that it was the rear right that gave, while everyboy was having
    problems on the right side, particularly the front right.
    
    I'd like to know what was happening at the end: was Senna slowing down,
    or did Prost become very fast. They didn't give many times, so you
    couldn't tell, we only know that Prost was doing very nasty things to
    the lap time, over and over again - so his 1s/lap on Senna could be his
    being quite fast.
    
    Berger: was he really that impressive? he stopped for tyres with 15s on
    Prost, and ended 25s behind. So he lost 40s, much more than the time he
    lost in the change (what does that take, somewhere around 15-20s, with
    deceleration/acceleration?). So Prost was actually faster, despite
    Berger having newer tyres.
    
    All in all, a beautiful race. A nice change from last year's dull
    "which red-and-white driver hates the other one most", and by the way,
    what the hell did the other 24 drivers do, apart from providing traffic
    jams for AS to show his devil-daring passing techniques?
    
    JP

RE: -.1

Well, TF1 (the French channel), had Senna in a Williams when they showed the
starting grid.

Maybe an all samba Williams team in 1991? :-)

Steve

    Sorry all,
    
    		for Piquet read Patrese
    
    
    	regards  George Frost

    Tyres at Mexico
    
    Senna admitted that he asked for a last minute change on the 
    grid: different tyre pressures !  His choice was obviously good
    (compared to Berger's 1st set). But it is obvious that the Ferrari
    used its tyres in a better way than the McLaren ...
    
    The Goodyear qualifiers did not work. Best lap during the race (new
    lap record) by Prost is almost exactly the pole position lap time
    by Berger. 
                                                       

    re .-1
    
    So that would probably mean that Prost was probably *very* fast at the
    end, rather than Senna being slow. Did Prost actually run faster during
    the race (with race tyres, and in pretty poor state at that) than
    during the qualifiers???
    
    JP

	In Mexico the two Williams runners chose the harder 'B' compound,
	reasoning that the 'C' wouldn't last. Well in some ways they were
	correct but the Bs didn't give enough grip which cost them a much
	better showing (Patrese pitted for a change to Cs).

	The trick was to choose Cs and conserve them as best as possible.
	Prost does that sort of thing best it seems, although his tyres
	looked worse than Mansell's at the end.

	The Life team are still turning up at the races and running the
	car until the W12 gives way, usually a laps worth in order to
	keep in the business. Meanwhile they're trying to buy Lotus'es
	stock of Judd engines.

	The McLaren Honda V12 is testing this week at Silverstone, but
	boss Ron Dennis says it's just preparation for next season.

	Michael Andretti (son of Mario) is looking for a F1 drive next 
	year, maybe in a Benetton.

	There are shakeups in the design teams at Ferrari (too many cooks?),
	Leyton House (Desperation?) and McLaren (needing to do some new
	thinking?).

	My tip for Silverstone (since I'm away till after then) is a
	Williams 1-2 with Patrese winning his 200th race.

	-John

    re .542
    
    Yes, Prost went faster and faster. He did exactly as always: start
    "slow" when the tank is full, plenty of cars on the track, conserve
    tyres ... etc ... He regularly radioed the Ferrari team to ask for
    Senna's times. At the end he understood that Senna was in trouble
    with the rears and he put the pressure. Prost declared that his
    tyres where "as new" on the finish line.
    
    The Mexico track provides almost no grip, very slippery, allowing
    cars to carry very little flaps = allowing high speeds and poor
    cornering which normally means: tyres will suffer. Because of the
    slippery surface, the above combination could work. In addition
    Prost chose to have less flaps on his car than on Mansell's.
    
    The new surface at Paul Ricard should be somewhat similar (not as
    bad in terms of grip). I'm looking forward to watch the fast guys
    in courbe de Signes .... 

    see you there Patrick
    
    	George Frost

    Can someone give me directions on how to get to the Paul Ricard
    circuit.
    
    Ta !
    
    Colin.
    

    Head west on the autoroute from Nice to Marseilles and CASTELLET will
    be signposted via a Route National (a green signpost).
    I don't know the number of the Route National.
    
    regards  George Frost

    OK here comes my (guess) prediction ;-) for the upcoming race. 
    BTW Gordon, what did I win for guessing the Mexican G.P.?  And no
    I do not use a crystal ball, and when did you ever see me walk anyways....
                                                                              
    Well on to the prediction....  I see a Ferrari winning not sure
    exactly who... then I see another Ferrari coming in third (must
    be the other guy).... then I see a Mclaren coming in second..I think
    it's Berger.  Senna is taken out about 2/3 through the race
    by...............BERGER.  Believe it or not that's what I see..
    I mean predict ;-)
    
    Should be another very entertaining race.
    
    Regards,
    FCGT

    Another Ferrari 1-2 with Williams and Benetton filling the top 6!
    The boys from Benetton (spotted them preparing the cars over the
    weekend) are VERY confident for both Ricard and Silverstone - they have
    the new development engine. I said I agreed to them having one if Nigel
    could have the other....
    
    Colin

    Prediction for Sunday........
    
    Prost again, spurred on by the Ricard crowd (if there is one?)
    Subject to reliability, a McLaren/Ferrari 1-2-3-4.
    
    Other bits:
    
    Ligier favourites for the early morning call after Silverstone.
    Unless they or EuroBrun, Osella, Coloni, AGS and Life can somehow
    score a point, Larrousse will be able to have a lie-in. Dallara
    and L/House haven't scored any points in the twelve month qualification
    period, but both have 3 7ths so they are next up after the 11 points
    scorers. Ligier has finished no higher than 9th.
    
    Eddie Jordan Grand Prix has a contract with Ford for HB engines
    next year. That should make them competitive from day 1 and could
    possibly tempt some interesting drivers.
    
    Mansell looking at Ferrari, Williams and just maybe Benetton for
    next year. Rumours say that the one he rejects out of Ferrari and
    Williams will get Alesi if they pay Uncle Ken's buy out clause.
    
    Another team after one of the big boys for next year is Arrows with
    the temptation of Porsche power. Boutsen is supposedly a good bet.
    
    Adrian Newey now with Williams as a home based senior engineer working
    on aerodynamics.
    
    GLAS still looking to go ahead despite the disappearance of the
    Mexican money. Mauro Baldi began testing at Imola last week.
    
    
    Anybody out there got the prequal. times from Ricard yet?
    
    Paul

    No times, but Eric Bernard (Espo-Larousse) has so far best times.
    
    Aguri Suzuki and the two AGS of Gabriele Torquini (Italy) and Yannick
    Dalmas (France), have qualified.
    

    Predictions...
    
    Mine are that things will go back to normal...and normal is:
    
    Senna >pole>best lap>a win
    Berger>2ndplace in the grid>a few problems>2ndplace
          
    :-)
    
    RUI

    Its a long time since Senna had best lap

    < re: 554>
    
    Entry for two (and parking) to Paul Ricard yesterday cost 640FF. No
    grandstands or anything like that.
    
    In terms of your funny money thats about 34 pounds each.
    
    	regards  George Frost   

    Great race! The Beeb managed to edit out the tension, but thanks
    to EuroSport we saw the whole thing.
    
    Excellent drive by Prost. He paced himself very well, and proved
    his point that its the leader on the last lap that counts. Another
    smoky end for Mansell, he must be on the brink of going back to
    Williams now. McLaren looked distinctly mortal again, Benetton were
    close but no cigar, and Williams were a bit disappointing again.
    
    BUT.................
    
    Go for it Leyton House!!!!!!!!
    
    At last something to cheer about. Excellent drives by both Ivan and
    Mauricio. What's all this about V8's only being competitive on slow
    circuits with sticky Pirelli's and budding superstars then?
    
    Seriously, good tactical race by the team, and it did the heart
    good to see them running 1st & 2nd for so long. The BBC missed most
    of it giving the impression that Prost breezed past Gugelmin almost
    immediately which was not the case, and as for Murray & James's
    comments about Prost being the real leader and the Leyton House
    cars being in tyre trouble etc ....... HA!
    
    So we now (possibly) have yet another team capable of running at
    the front, and one looking forward to the engine that dominates
    CART next year.
    
    As a side issue, we watched the cable coverage for the first time
    expecting to be a bit disappointed, but instead it was excellent.
    Limited ad breaks (better than ESPN in the States), good pre-race
    programmes and interviews, sensible commentary. I'll give the Beeb
    another shot by recording their coverage of Silverstone but they
    better watch out!
    
    Congrats too to TF1 for generally good coverage. The backwards
    Larrousse shot of Capelli and Prost was excellent.
    
    Roll on Silverstone.
    
    Paul
    

	Alain Prost won the French G.P. for Ferrari (his 5th success in his 
home G.P.), the second successive win for the Prancing Horse marking an
historic 100th G.P. win. The Frenchman, from 3rd on the grid, had his usual 
casual start (6th at the end of lap 1), stopped early for the tyre change and
was there at the right time to take Capelli's ailing March just two laps from
home. 

	"Wait a minute, you mean Nannini's Benetton or Patrese's Williams or..
Capelli's March???" Yup. From a strong qualifying position (sharing the fourth 
row of the grid), the two Leyton House cars ran strongly throughout in their
best showing for a couple of years. Almost uniquely, they elected to run non-
stop on the new Ricard surface and so nearly made it, running serenely 1-2 at 
the head of the field from when Patrese stopped for tyres (soon after Capelli
grabbed the lead from him on lap 32) until Prost caught and passed Gugelmin 
about 10 laps later (just before the Judd expired at the pit entrance).
Capelli's straight-line speed made it very difficult for Prost to overtake,
which he did emaculately on the inside at the double right-hander with just
two laps to go. Capelli then rolled it off as he struggled with failing oil
pressure, Senna catching up to within a few cars lengths at the flag.

	The other Ferrari started from pole (for the first time this year)
but got relagated in the early laps by both McLarens, taking over the lead
briefly as they pitted before stopping himself. Mansell then chased Nannini
hard and was back in the top 6 when he appeared to stop a second time for
tyres soon before having the engine let go. Another disappointment.

	Deposed to the second row of the grid, Senna tore past pole man Mansell
on the second lap and chased his teammate for 20 laps or so, taking him just
before the Austrian stopped for tyres. He stopped himself around lap 30, neither
McLaren getting away very well at all and Senna being delayed 16s on his stop,
dropping him to 8th just ahead of his teammate on lap 32 (when the order was
Capelli, Patrese, Gugelmin, Prost, Nannini, Mansell, Piquet, Senna, Berger).
Thereafter, the McLaren gained places due to others' misfortunes rather than
the driver's overtaking efforts and he ended up in 3rd with his teammate a
lacklustre 5th.

	The Benettons were right there again, Nannini making Mansell's 3rd place
look quite insecure on occasions in the first quarter of the race with Piquet
hovering just outside the top six ahead of Alesi, Capelli, Gugelmin and Bernard.
After the stops, Nannini found himself meat in a Ferrari sandwich and hounded 
Prost in his chase of the Marches. He disappeared just a handful of laps from 
home leaving Piquet to pick up another dollop of points for 4th place, the 6th 
time in seven races the Brazilian has scored points!

	Boutsen had a very low-key day but Patrese was up there at the sharp end
holding down 5th place (behind the McLarens, Mansell and Nannini in the early
laps) and taking over the lead briefly when Senna and Mansell stopped for tyres
before him. His stop was slow and he rejoined 11th, picking up the places as
the front runners retired and ending up 6th.

	Prost's third win of the season puts him within three tantalising points
of Senna with Piquet edging a point closer to Berger's 3rd place. Ferrari are
now 45 points to 60 in the Constructors' Championship with Benetton and Williams
scrapping over 3rd place with 23 and 21 points respectively.

RESULTS						CHAMPIONSHIP
-------						------------
1. Prost - Ferrari				Senna			35
2. Capelli - March				Prost			32
3. Senna - McLaren				Berger 			25
4. Piquet - Benetton				Piquet			16
5. Berger - McLaren				Alesi/Mansell		13
6. Patrese - Williams

        
    
    
    I'm very suprised at how well both the Benetton and Leyton House
    V8s performed. Considering that this is a "fast" track, both of
    them seemed quite capable of keeping pace with the more exotic
    V10s and V12s.

    Anyone know why the N/S/R wheels seemed to "jam" on both the
    McHondas?

    	Maybe something to do with "overheating hubs" due to the loads on
    the nsr tyre combined with "dead fit" machining?? I'll see what MN has
    to say tomorrow and post an answer here if I get time.
    
    	I reckon Nigel must start favourite for the British G.P. - his luck
    this year has been pretty appalling and the Ferrari has shown itself to
    have the legs of the McLarens at fast circuits sooooo...
    
    	I agree the Leyton Houses (Hice?) were pretty difficult to get past
    though and Nannnini reckons his chances at Silverstone. Let's hope
    Ayrton plants it in the sandtrap again, Prosty gets beaten up by his
    teammate, Gerhard gets delayed, Nannini gets on the rostrum, a March is
    up there too and a Lotus makes the top 6!
    
    Colin

    Does anyone know what time the untimed and timed practises are this
    FRIDAY?
    
    John

    EuroSport had an inteview with Prost on Sunday. It was reasonably
    uncontroversial but he did say that he thought 3 or 4 cicuits were
    unsuitable/unsafe for F1. The ones he quoted were Phoenix and Jerez.
    Is it significant that these are also the poorest attended ;->
    The discussion was prompted but rumours of the French GP going to
    Magny Cours next year. Prost reckoned that France and GB rated a
    second GP each, so Ricard could stay in the frame.
    
    He also confirmed (or as good as did) that he will be with Ferrari
    next year and that there is a fair chance he'll retire at the end
    of next season, or '92 at the latest.
    
    Also on Ricard - 
    
    Mansell was very unhappy with his Ferrari engine saying it was the
    worst he had ever had from them. He also got wound up with FISA
    as he couldn't supply the required amount of er..., um... fluid
    for his drug test. He wanted to fly off home, FISA wanted to carry
    on taking the p*** (nothing new do I hear you say?)
    
    I'm not sure that even people power will help Nige this year on
    home ground. His stock seems to be pretty low at Ferrari, and no
    doubt if things continue, we'll get the "inferior machinery" stuff
    surfacing again.
    
    Silverstone should be great. Leyton House up & running again, a
    new Ford engine for Benetton, Team Perfect under pressure and possibly
    a race for the new Ferrari engine. Add to this a potential scramble
    to avoid pre-qualifying (AGS vs Ligier vs Dallara?) and the two
    Mika's AND Grouse vs Ravett - what more can you want? (Apart from
    a decent view and a circuit like Brands!)
    
    Just maybe Derek Warwick will get some bigger cheers this year as
    he's in a British car.
    
    Finally, Ayrton is on Wogan this wednesday, 7pm BBC1. Will Ron let
    him say anything interesting?
    
    Paul

    Re -2
    
    From memory -
    
    Pre qualifying 8 'til 9
    
    Untimed warm up 10.30 'til 11.30 or 12
    
    Timed Q1 1pm-2pm
    
    Paul

    Thanks
    
    John

    Paul, Colin and the rest of you out there, would somebody be kind
    enough to post a transcript of the Wogan/Senna thing... well the
    interesting bits anyway

    re. <<what more can you want? (Apart from a decent view and ....)
    
    A couple of us were at Paul Ricard on Sunday and fell to musing about a
    portable, self-erecting (to 1m50 which is the average slouch height of
    the average beer sodden F1 Fan), unobtrusive, small footprint so as not
    to endanger the lesser species of YABS (Your Average Beer-Sodden ......)
    F1 fans, auto_stable to withstand side winds of (tbd) and those personally
    generated by YABS. 
    
    Names for the moment escaped us but commercial acumen came it play
    with a "lease scheme" know as the for Higher Viewing platform ...
    
    I am convinced that such a platform with all the necessary attachment
    points for matching Ice Cooler boxes, umbrellas etc, is feasible.
    
    All one-liners as a start to a Product definition would be welcomed.
    
    
    	regards  George Frost
    

    How about a small aluminium step ladder (say 3 rungs high) and four
    tent pegs and short guys to lash it down with?

    re -1 ...... and for those with a propensity for reading into what
    was written not what was meant, in the last note "guys" does NOT
    = people, but guy-ROPES......     ;^)

    PLEASE dont crowd the notes and cloud the issue. This is serious.
    
    We are not looking to invent anything, we are looking to develop
    an old idea (aluminium stepladders) using latest technologies etc.
    
    A briefcase sized box, 10 kilos, gas discharge erectable (or electric),
    room underneath it for other spectators, no view-blocking (telescopic
    Kevlar wrapped tube section?  etc  etc ..

    
    
    At Le Mans, there are usually quite a number of "portable viewing
    structures", from stools to aluminium step-ladders to full blown
    scaffolding.
    
    My vote for an accessory to go with a tall viewing structure and
    a lot of beer is a multi-purpose colour-coded bucket.

    
    
    Nicknamed the "chukka kan" perhaps?
    
    

    	You want ME to watch WOGAN so YOU can hear HIM driveling on about
    nasty red things that go bump in the night.....??
    
    	Might do.
    
    Colin

    Tks Colin. btw one Russ Collins here in Valbonne
    (he_who_occasionally_reads_this_notes_file) is in possession of a new?
    book on Senna. Not sure if it biography or auto, but Russ said that he
    will get the title to me.
    
    Perhaps you cn post it here Russ?
    
    So whats it to be for Silverstone.
    
    The last 10 laps of Paul Ricard were of great interest to me. The LH
    cars seemed to be holding their own with Prost not having the oomph to
    take first Gugelmin and then Capelli. Lap times for the first three were 
    nothing to write home about. The McLaren pair were not gaining
    significantly.
    
    A pre-race (Saturday evening) interview with Prost had him mentioning
    that his qualifying time was slow vis-a-vis the potential of the car.
    He said that in fact he lapped one second faster then Mansell but it
    was not officially timed, and he ran out of qualifying time.
    
    If this is correct, Prost should have been able to take the two leaders
    at almost any time. The impression at trackside certainly was so.
    
    Last point: Silverstone is fast and flat, (I don't know about the
    surface?) and as a result I anticipate an almost identical result to
    Paul Ricard. Patrese and the Williams team perhaps doing a better job
    and Alesi using the superior aerodynamics of the Tyrrel to best effect.
    
    So predictions for Silverstone - here goes:
    
    
    		1		Prost
    		2		Patrese
    		3		Senna
    		4		Mansell
    		5		Alesi
    		6		Berger
    
    
    		regards  George Frost
    
    	
    
    
    

            
    An article in today's Independent newspaper claims Ferrari want
    Mansell to resign!  

    Richard.
    

>    An article in today's Independent newspaper claims Ferrari want
>    Mansell to resign!  

	Hmm, and other rumours are saying Mansells not particularly happy
	with Ferrari, and he's been seen talking to his old mate Frank
	Williams....

	Looks like it's silly season again ! Mind you, when isn't it silly
	season.

	Gordon

    re .571
    
    Prost one second faster would be quite impressive!
    
    About overtaken the two LH cars, it did seem quite difficult, or he
    took his time about it (on the other hand, the man is no Ayrton: given
    the situation of the race, why would he be in any hurry to pass).
    
    What I found impressive was the speed with which he closed the gab
    between the two LH's. After staying stuck behing Guldgelmin (however
    that's supposed to be spelled) for quite a while (15 laps), one would
    expect that reeling in the 9s gap between the two cars would take hime
    quite a while too. But behold, he was in Capelli's exhaust in just the
    time for a commercial - couldn't be more than a few laps. So either
    passing was quite a problem (lack of speed on the straight? hardly
    probable), or he was just playing it safe.
    
    re .572
    
    So if Mansell leaves, who would be Prost's #2. Senna???
    
    JP

    	Capelli is quoted as saying that the LH set-up was "perfect" (and
    Gugelmin (that's how you spell it!) agreed with him. Prost admitted
    that Capelli never made it easy and he had to really work at the
    overtake.
    
    	The McLarens were troubled by tyres (they stayed on Bs - Senna
    admitted they may have been overcautious as the McLarens were
    certainly harder on their rubber than most others) and balance.
    
    	Mansell described his race engine as the worst he has had all
    season. There was considerable pressure on him all weekend due to the
    presence of Ferrari President Piero Fusaro who wanted a swift decision
    on whether Mansell would re-sign (not resign!) for next season. Nigel
    was in no mood to oblige, however, and avoided all official
    engagements on Friday evening to be with Rosanne and the kids!
    
    	As a by the by, remember Jean-Pierre van Rossem, "colourful"
    Belgian "entrepreneur" and ex-owner of Onyx? He's currently in jail on
    charges of fraud, falsification of business documents and bouncing
    cheques!!!
    
    	Finally, amusing end to the proceedings came when Mansell, Capelli
    and Prost were all hauled down to the medical centre after the race for
    random drug tests. The Brit had to wait nearly 2 hours and drink 5
    litres of fluid before he could oblige with a urine sample!! "What do
    they expect?", he asked. "I've just sweated off 10 pounds in the last
    couple of hours!!"
    
    Colin
    
    PS Oh, and by the way, I forgot to watch or record Wogan. Sorry!!

>>  PS Oh, and by the way, I forgot to watch or record Wogan. Sorry!!


Senna wasn't on, dunno why though   :-(


...art

        Ayrton Senna - The Hard Edge of Genius
        Christopher Hilton
        Patrick Stephens Ltd.
    
    _I_ liked it, but then I'm a Senna fan. Lots of info about his time in
    karts, F3000, etc.
    
    russ

    I had posted a request some notes back for some help in developing 
    the specs for a "chair", "elevated support" whatever for those racing 
    fans who don't pay 150 pounds for seats.
    
    Two replies came back with "buy a step ladder". To that I would simply
    say try hefting a step ladder, the ice box, the umbrella etc.. etc..
    from the car park to the vantage point.
    
    Perhaps I was a little too tongue-in-cheek to elicit sane responses,
    but I repeat that I am a little serious. I will post a note at the end
    of this conference (must be about 1600? by now) called "Support the
    Lifter". 
    
    I shall kick off the requirements and with your help we can apply some
    of the F1 input in terms of engineering design, materials, ergonomics
    safety to come up with a feasible product design. A further step will
    be a prototype. 
    
		regards  George Frost

    re .576
    	Glad I didn't bother to watch it then Art!!
    
    re .578
    	...and Frank Wiliams doesn't know a first-rate driver when he sees one
    (look who he's got in his team right now!!)
    
    re .580
    	According to Motoring News, Adrian Newey designed a totally new
    aerodynamic package for Leyton House before he left - it was run for
    the first time at Ricard.
    
    re .581
    	This is going to be Mansell's weekend - I can feel it in my water!!
    
    Colin

    Normally I would back Nigel at Silverstone, but this year I'm not
    so sure. It will be interesting to see if Ferrari risk the new V12
    for the race as well as qualifying. I'm sure Mansell wants them
    too, but Prost is probably less convinced. Remembering Mansell
    persuading Williams to ditch the active car two years ago he may
    well try and swing it.
    
    Either way, Ferrari should be at the top of the list at the end
    of qualifying, with Senna there too. If the new Ford is as good
    as its supposed to be I reckon Benetton will displace Williams as
    the number three team.
    
    Leyton House should go well on another favourable circuit. Given
    that the car is very light on tyres (Gugelmin's were only one third
    worn when he retired at Ricard) they should run non stop again.
    Remembering Gugelmin here the past two years (4th in the rain in
    '88 and a BBC ignored charge up the field from the pit lane last
    year) they should be around to pick up some points.
    
    I also expect a big effort from Ligier and Dallara to try and get
    the elusive point to get out of pre-qual.
    
    So who's going and where are you standing/sitting? We're in the
    Woodcote grandstand.
    
    Next year we're finally going to take all three days in. Mind you,
    we're going to book a hotel within the next few weeks :-)
    
    A-well-over-excited-Paul
    

    
re 581
    
>>    re .578
>>    	...and Frank Wiliams doesn't know a first-rate driver when he sees one
>>    (look who he's got in his team right now!!)
    
    
      From what Frank Williams says about the selection of drivers, the
    teams themselves can't just go and choose what driver they want! - the
    drivers are in it for money, and to win - therefor a top driver has got
    to believe _he_ can make that car win (if it is not already one of the
    top two cars) before they even start talking about money, which is also
    a very important factor. The other thing is prestige, who wouldn't want
    to at least have a go at driving for Farrari?  The other teams are then
    left to shuffle round the other drivers, given the money available from
    their sponsors.

why are teams allowed to use different engines for qualifying & for racing
surely a team could build an engine that gives a lot of power for a short
lifetime (qualifying), whereas they need reliable power for racing?!

I know that in the turbo era higher boost pressures were used for qualifying 
than racing.

Do all the teams have a qualifying engine plus a racing engine?


cheers...

...art

    Re -1
    
    In theory the engines are not different. The new one is just a
    development of the old ;->
    
    In fact, the new V12 from Ferrari, and the new Ford for Benetton
    are very different engines from the ones currently in the races.
    Don't ask me for technical details, I don't know a con-rod from
    a crankshaft, but they both have more BHP.
    
    There are regulations about chassis. Once you start using a new
    car, you cannot go back to the old one. This was highlighted when
    Tyrrell announced the 019. They had to bite the bullet and stick
    with the new car even if it didn't work.
    
    Things were worse in the turbo era when true qualifying specials
    were used pushing out way over 1000bhp. They were often designed
    to almost self destruct after a few laps! At least its reasonably
    honest now in that the "qualifying" engines will be used for racing
    in the near future, its just that they are undeveloped, or that's
    what the teams say at least.
    
    Paul

    re: .584
    
>   why are teams allowed to use different engines for qualifying & for racing
>   surely a team could build an engine that gives a lot of power for a short
>   lifetime (qualifying), whereas they need reliable power for racing?!
    
    I guess for the same reason as they are allowed to use different tyres.
    Blistering(!) performance for only a lap or two is exactly what the
    "qualifying" tyres give. I wonder how long it will be before we see the
    "qualifying engine". 

    Anybody got any times from practice?
    
    Paul

Well, Prost does it again. 3 in a row. This man is hot !

Poor MNigel. To lead twice and then pull out late. Why are his cars less 
reliable ? Me-thinks that he is harder on the car then Nigel.

Bombshell is his announced retirement. This isn't for real is it - simply 
another of his post-race-emotional-outbursts ?

2nd is a good result from Williams on home territory.

3rd for Senna. 

Comments please from those who were there.

	Alain Prost hoisted himself to the top of the World Championship points
table with another superbly tactical victory in the Britsh G.P., coming home
nearly 40s ahead of Thiery Boutsen's Williams. Ayrton Senna's McLaren was an 
eclipsed 3rd (due to others' mechanical misfortunes) while the two Larousse
Lolas sandwiched Piquet's Benetton in the remaining points-scoring positions.
This was an enthraling race, with the lead in doubt right up until lap 54 (of
64), having changed hand about 10 times! Once again, the McLarens were 
thoroughly eclipsed.

	Prost started from the 3rd row of the grid alongside hotshot Alesi and
held 5th in the early laps, moving past Boutsen on lap 15 (into 3rd as Senna
spun of), Berger on lap 31 and finally Mansell on lap 41 before stroking it
home to his 43rd win in his 161st G.P. He now leads Senna by 2 points!

	Teammate Mansell had a really up-and-down weekend. He got off to a fine 
start by snatching pole from Senna on Saturday on a day when most of the top
boys could not improve on their Friday times. Mansell hit a scintillating lap
which knocked nearly a second off his time and was 0.6s faster than Ayrton for
his second consecutive pole. At the start, he was outdragged into the first 
corner by the Brazilian but chased hard for 9 laps before taking him under
braking for the Bridge Complex on lap 9, running wide and letting the McLaren
through again. It took him four more laps to repeat the manoevre properly, at
which he promptly pulled away impressively.

	However, it was around this time that he first started having problems
with the electronic gearchange which began changing down by itself (like from
7th to 4th on the straight!!). The problem was intermittent and Mansell was
able to maintain his lead for a while but a fumbled shift at Becketts allowed
Berger (now in 2nd after Senna's off) to catch up and take the lead by 
outdragging the Ferrari down Hanger Straight on lap 21. Mansell dropped back
a little but then, having got the hang of the gearbox problem, attacked again
and retook the lead 7 laps later at the Complex, pulling easily away from the 
McLaren again! Prost now began to attack in earnest, passing Berger at the 
Complex (the favourite overtaking spot!) and reeling Mansell in, taking the lead
from the ailing sister car on lap 41 at Stowe (for a change) as Mansell was held
up behind Caffi's Arrows. 

	It was not over yet, though! Again, Mansell came back at Prost and
started reducing the 5s gap again, setting a fastest lap (lap 49, 1m 11.52s) in
the process before Prost steadied the gap. A frustrated and angry Mansell
finally slowed and pulled off at the end of lap 54 with engine trouble, the 3rd
time this year that his equipment has let him down in the final 1/3 of a race.
He threw his gloves and balaclava to the crowd, made a moan about equipment
(referring to "one car" that goes an and wins races while his fails) and then,
at a post-race press conference, announced his retirement from G.P. racing at 
the end of the season.

	So what of the McLarens? Well, Senna, having been deposed from the lead
by Mansell, went wide on the exit at Club on lap 14 and spun off! He pitted 
for new tyres a lap later (in a race when none of the front runners stopped)
and then trailed along outside the top 6 for a long time. He was 8th on lap 33
when the order was Mansell, Prost (-4.16s), Berger (-6.52s), Capelli (-16.73s),
Boutsen (-17.26s), Piquet (-36.79s), Suzuki, Senna, Bernard, Donnelly, Caffi
and Alesi. He eventually hauled past the Lola and the Benetton (as Piquet spun
on entry to the Complex), but picked up his other places as Capelli, Mansell
and Berger all retired in the last 15 laps.

	Berger ran strongly in 3rd in the opening laps (which became 2nd when 
his teammate threw it all away), took the lead off Mansell on lap 21, lost it 
again on lap 28, lost 2nd to Prost on lap 31, lost 3rd to Capelli on lap 44,
went back to 2nd with the retirement of the latter two but went out himself
with just 3 laps to go!

	For once, Boutsen got the better of his teammate, starting from 4th on 
the grid, holding 5th in the early stages (which became 4th) being passed by 
Capelli on the latter's superb run and never really figuring in the battle for
the lead. He was always thereabouts, though (his "style"!) and, like Senna, 
picked up places due to others' misfortunes towards the end. Patrese never 
figured at all, starting from 7th place on the grid and running 6th until a
long tyre stop on lap 15 dropped him right down the order. he finished his 200th
G.P. in retirement.

	The Benettons had a mixed sort of day. Piquet eventually picked up a 
couple of points again in a stirring drive right through the field, having 
started from the back of the grid (rather than his lowly 6th row slot) having
had some sort of trouble on the warm-up. He scythed through the lower part of 
the field into 9th place by lap 11 and 7th six laps later but there progress 
halted for a while, it taking a further 14 laps to depose Suzuki from 6th. He
was now some 37s behind Boutsen but dropping away, moving up to 5th on Capelli's
retirement, up to 4th on Mansell's demise, down to 5th again as he spun at the
Complex, allowing Senna through, up to 4th as Berger retired and down to 5th
again as Bernard pipped him on the last lap. Nannini was 10th at the end of
lap 1 but disappeared unnoticed around quarter distance.

	Alesi started off well, converting his 6th on the grid to 6th on the 
road, although dropping away from the leading bunch, stopping for tyres on lap
12 (his left rear shot away) and never really featuring again. On lap 33 he was 
down in 12th place and I think he finished in 8th, a lap down.

	The two Lolas went extremely well from 8th and 9th on the grid. They 
ended the first lap in 8th and 11th but Suzuki sneaked himself into 5th place
by lap 17 until Capelli came storming through. On lap 20 they were 6th and 8th,
on lap 33 they were 7th and 9th and they ended up 4th and 6th, Suzuki just 
snatching 4th off an ailing Piquet on the last lap!

	And the hero of France? He had a storming drive, coming through from
a lowly 12th on the grid to 9th at the end of lap 1, 8th on lap 11, 6th on lap
17, past Suzuki on lap 20 (with a fastest lap of 1m 12.6s), past Boutsen on lap 
32, past Berger into 3rd on lap 44 (despite a broken exhaust) only to retire 
on lap 49. An unhappy end to another memorable race for L.H.

	As neither of the Ligiers came within a country mile of scoring a point,
Larina eventually finishing 10th, they will have to get up early in future for
pre-qualifying. The way this works is that the top 13 teams gain automatic
entry into official qualifying while the rest must battle it out for the right
to join them. Before Silverstone, the order of the teams was McLaren, Ferrari, 
Williams, Benetton, Tyrrell, Lotus, Arrows, Leyton House, Brabham, Onyx, Minardi
and Lola (these being the points scorers during the last 8 races last year and
the first eight this year). This left Dallara as 13th team due to two 7th places
while Ligier had only two 9th places to their credit. Ligier's failure to better
7th place means that they, together with EuroBrun, Osella, AGS, Coloni and Life
must prequalify starting in Germany.

POSITION	RACE					CHAMPIONSHIP
 1st		Prost 	- Ferrari			Prost 	  41
 2nd		Boutsen - Williams (-39.09s)		Senna 	  39
 3rd		Senna 	- McLaren (-43.08s)		Berger 	  25
 4th		Bernard - Lola (-1m 15.3s)		Piquet 	  18
 5th		Piquet 	- Benetton (-1m 24.0s)		Boutsen   17
 6th		Suzuki 	- Lola (-1 lap)			Mansell } 13
 							Alesi   } 13

 7th		Caffi 	- Arrows (-1 lap)			
 8th		Alesi 	- Tyrrell (-1 lap)		Patrese   10
 9th		Modena 	- Brabham (-2 laps)		Nannini    7
10th		Larini 	- Ligier (-2 laps?)		Gugelmin   6
11th		Pirro 	- Dallara			Bernard    4

	Well John, while I too would say twelve squid to get in for the
	Friday is a mite expensive, your second sentence says it all.

	The attendance for the Friday, I don't know what the exact figures
        were, was by all reports, well up on last year and the year before.
	So unless people stop paying these prices they'll probably, if not
	definitely go up next year. Supply and demand and all that kind
	of thing.
	
	As for getting out of the circuit on the race day, past experiences
	lead me to wait until a couple of hours after the last scheduled
	race before attempting to get out.

	Don't know what it was like this year though.

	Gordon

    YES!!! YES!!!! YES!!!!!
    
    another great Ferrari win.  I was rather glad to see all the lead
    changes and excitement at the begining and middle of the race rather
    than the last 10 or so laps like the last few races.  What has happened
    to the Mclaren cars (not that I care really):-).  Can Ferrari now
    take the constructors title as well as Prost the drivers title...
    yes, yes, yes!!!!!
    
    OK so Nige has bowed out for next year..who is going to go in and
    take over (he has big shoes to fill)  any takers out there, they
    wouldn't even have to pay me ;-)  
    
    Does anyone think Nige willl get
    replaced before the end of the season.  I don't think Ferrari can
    take the constuctors title unless they put someone in the #2 car
    who wants and needs to win (or at least place in the top 6) we need
    those Ferrari points.                      
    
    Has anyone taken 4 in a row before for Ferrari (or any team for
    that matter)?  Can Prost take another first place for 4 in a row!!!
    YES! YES!! YES!!!
    
    I get so excited when the red cars do so well :-) :-) :-)
    
    Now we have to wait for two weeks to see if Prost can really do
    it.  Lets hear the comments on Nigel and what's going to happen
    to red car #2
    
    Regards,
    FCGT
     

    I was interested in Nigel Mansell's comments about, "Why one car works
    and mine doesn't !". 
    
    I have great admiration and sympathy for Nigel. He is a skilled driver
    etc. and demonstrated total control in the tyre blow-out incident. But
    he does seem to be plagued with all these "problems".
    
    This latest incident, however, is a bit suspect. After all, we all know
    what they say about a bad workman... 
    

>    This latest incident, however, is a bit suspect. After all, we all know
>    what they say about a bad workman... 
    
If you saw Nigel's interview, he said the gearbox started changing down on 
it's own after 10 laps, thus allowing others to overtake him easily. Given 
the problem, I think he did well to nurse the car as far as he did and as 
well as he did.

Dave.

    re: Mansell: the car does seem to be trouble prone, but it's hard to
    suspect Ferrari would deliberatly skrew up Mansell - nothing like
    McHonda for the last seasonl, where a combination of Prost leaving and
    Honda support for Brazil would provide a motive.
    
    The positive way of seeing this: Mansell's car seems to be no worse
    than the two Ferraris last season - it's Prost who seems to be able to
    make his car very reliable...
    
    
    re: teams and drivers: it's funny to see that McHonda has a top car
    when Prost is around, and as soon as he switches, they start loosing
    it, with their car coming apart, and Prost's new team seems to get
    better and better, maybe on the road to becoming dominant. And with
    their chief (and magical) engineer gone to Beneton.
    
    On the last few races, McHonda really seem to be loosing it: they are
    now competing not with Ferrari, but with teams like Leyton House!
    
    One possible interpretation: there are drivers that can just drive,
    even if very fast. And there are drivers that can contribute heavily to
    building a car.
    
    In that case, McHonda really screwed up by preferring Senna to Prost.
    And Senna might owe a world championship to the guy that helped build
    his car. 
    
    Future will tell. Let's see if the current trends continue.
    
    I any case, Senna has been *very* lucky thus far: Monaco was a lucky
    one, one more lap and he'd probably found himself third behind Alesi
    and Berger - if in the race at all. And Silverstone was another lucky
    one: he gained 4 places in the last few laps thanks to 3 retirements
    and one spin - and picks up 4 easy points. If he's picking up a lot of
    points with 3rd places, will he end up this season loosing points to
    the 12/16 rule???

    One comment that ESPN made just before the start was that McLaren were
    fiddling with the cars in the pits (and on the grid?) while Ferrari
    didn't touch theirs.  Yes, it looks like McLaren has two very good
    drivers, but Ferrari has someone who can set the car up as well.
    
    Here's the info on consecutive wins by drivers, 3 in a row isn't too
    rare, but 4 is....
    
    
There have been a few, but 5's the record in one season and 6 is the most in a
row ever.

It's also interesting to note most of the consecutive wins have come on the
fast circuits.  Looks like once they find a setup that works well on one of the
tracks, it works on the others as well.

1990:
Prost-Ferrari	3 (Mexico, France, England)

1989:
Senna-McLaren	3 (Imola, Monaco, Mexico)

1988:
Senna-McLaren	4 (England, Germany, Hungary, Belgium)

1984/85
Prost-McLaren	3 (Germany, Portugal, Brazil '85)

1980/81
Jones-Williams	3 (Canada, Watkins Glen, Long Beach '81)

1979
Jones-Williams	3 (Germany, Austria, Holland)

1975/76
Lauda-Ferrari	3 (USA, Brazil '76, South Africa '76)

1975
Lauda-Ferrari	3 (Monaco, Belguim, Sweden)

1971
Stewart-Tyrrell	3 (France, England, Germany)

1970
Rindt-Lotus	4 (Holland, France, England, Germany)

1969
Stewart-Matra	3 (Holland, France, England)

1967/68
Clark-Lotus	3 (USA, Mexico, South Africa '68)

1966
Brabham-Brabham	4 (France, England, Holland, Germany)

1965
Clark-Lotus	5 (Belgium, France, England, Holland, Germany)

1963
Clark-Lotus	4 (Belgium, Holland, France, England)

1960
Brabham-Cooper	5 (Holland, Belgium, France, England, Portugal)

1957/58
Moss-Vanwall/Cooper
		3 (Pescara, Italy, Argentina '58)

1954
Fangio-Mercedes	3 (Germany, Switzerland, Italy)

1952/53
Ascari-Ferrari	6 (France, England, Germany, Holland, Italy, Argentina '53)

    The asterisks indicate the team won the manufacturers championship that
    year.  Notice how consistent it has been.

1990	Ferrari		3
1989*	McLaren-Honda	4,3
1988*	McLaren-Honda	11,4
1987*	Williams-Honda	6
1986*	Williams-Honda	4
1985*	McLaren-TAG	3
	Williams-Honda	3(+1 in '86)
1984*	McLaren-TAG	3,7(+1 in '85)
1983	Brabham-BMW	3
1980*	Williams-Ford	3,2(+2 in '81)
1979	Williams-Ford	4
1978*	Lotus-Ford	3
1976*	Ferrari		3
1975*	Ferrari		3,2(+3 in '76)
1971*	Tyrrell-Ford	3,2(+1 in '72)
1970*	Lotus-Ford	4
1969*	Matra-Ford	3
1968*	Lotus-Ford	3
1966*	Brabham-Repco	4
1965*	Lotus-Climax	5
1964*	Ferrari		3
1963*	Lotus-Climax	4
1961*	Ferrari		4
1960*	Cooper-Climax	5
1959*	Cooper-Climax	3(+1 in '60)
1958*	Vanwall		4
1956	Ferrari/Lancia	4       -- No Makes Championship prior to '58 --
1955	Mercedes	4
1954	Mercedes	3
1953	Ferrari		7
1952	Ferrari		8(+7 in '53)
1951	Alfa Romeo	3
	Ferrari		3
1950	Alfa Romeo	6(+3 in '51)	

	Re Mansell: I don't think Ferrari will want to replace him as he's
        the kind of driver who is won't give less than 100% for the remaining 
	races, and has said so.

	There's not the kind of acrimoney between team and driver here as
	there was with Prost and McHonda last year. The Ferrari looks like
	the kind of car that requires the smoother driving tactics of Prost
	and does not take kindly to the more aggressive style of Mansell.
	If, and it's a very sad if, Villeneuve was driving alongside Mansell,
	both Ferraris would probably be suffering more retirements. His
	style was very similar to that of Mansells.

	On saying that though, I can't see how any style of driving should
	start to make a semi-automatic gearbox start changing gears by
	itself !

	I think we are going to see Mansell well up there in the coming races,
	as long as the car holds together.

	Gordon	

    	Nice research, Dave, I enjoyed that!! Now a quick quiz for all you
    non-Autosport readers! The Ricard win was Ferrari's 100th. 
    
    1. Who won their first?
    2. Who won the 50th?
    3. Who has won most driving for them?
    
    	I don't believe Ferrari will replace Mansell - the guy is too
    committed to his racing to sandbag and would love to see the Prancing
    Horse trample all over the McHondas, even if it is not his car doing
    all the trampling! His relations with Prost are also still very good.
    I think his comment was made in the heat of the moment immediately
    after an extremely disappointing retirement.
    
    	I also agree with remarks made about Prost - I still believe he
    earns the epithet "Professor" despite the flack he has received over
    the last couple of years at McLaren. I think he does have enormous
    talent setting a car up and over the years his style has always been to
    get a good race set-up even at the expence of grid position. This, of
    course, is in direct contrast to the Mansells, Sennas, and Bergers of
    this world who all want to be on pole! Prost also has an incredible
    sensitivity with his equipment although, to be fair, I don't think
    Mansell is unduly rough on his car.
    
    	He will undoubtedly go into the books as the most talented driver
    since Stirling Moss NOT to win the World Championship (unless his luck
    turns right around, starting in Germany). You can't ask any more of the
    guy, can you? Pole position by a country mile, fighting a mechanical
    problem to lead the race twice and coming back for a third shot in 2nd
    place when the thing expires. He has guts and determination second to
    none. 
    
    	I didn't go this year - the cost and the traffic being the main
    reasons - but I'm glad I saw his finest victory ever in '87!
    
    Colin
    at McLaren

From CEEFAX without permission;

Prost: 	I'm not very happy. It's a sad day when a driver like Nigel leaves 
	Formula 1.

Senna:	It will be a big blow if he leaves. Hopefully he will change his 
	mind quickly and return to Formula 1.

Dave.

    1 day out of the office and 25 new notes later....
    
    Sunday was superb, marred only by the rampant xenophobia of most
    of the crowd. Fantastic race. Much as it hurts to say it, thoroughly
    deserved win for Prost. I was disappointed for Nigel, but amused
    by the crowd, who cheered wildly when Prost overtook the dreaded
    McLaren of Berger, but went a bit quiet when he nabbed Nigel. I
    think Mansell will be a great loss to the scene, but with a bit
    of luck the crowd will give other drivers some credit next year.
    
    I was very sorry for Capelli, it was another great drive. I thought
    something was up when his engine note went very flat. It was a shame
    Gugelmin wasn't running to take up the challenge. Another goo drive
    by Piquet. He might have collected on his bet if he hadn't started
    from the back.
    
    From the highlights it looked like the Beeb missed two of the best
    incidents where we were at Woodcote - Nannini and Patrese getting
    all tangled up and causing Capelli to nearly spin (thats when Nannini
    went out - looking very miffed) and Capelli and Alesi banging wheels
    again. 
    
    The Woodcote grandstands gave a great view all the way from well
    back under Bridge round to past the line. #80 next year but with
    the new complex they should give a great view. BUT -WHY CANT THEY
    FIX THE EXITS!!!! We watched the tin tops and then sat by the car
    for an hour before sitting in a queue for two hours. Not good.
    
    Mansell came across very well in his retirement speech. Its a shame,
    but understandable, I guess he realised he is not destined to win
    the title. For me he was the real champion a few years back at
    Williams, when Piquet and Prost nicked it at the end. It makes the
    musical chairs very interesting tho' - from his comments after the
    race, I'd be quite surprise to see Senna staying. Williams must
    be a good bet.
    
    Anyway, we're off to Leyton House in Bicester tomorrow for a factory
    visit, so I'll report in on Thursday.
    
    Paul

	If you want to see REAL xenophobia go to and see the Italian GP, there
	is absolutely no question as to who the crowd are cheering for ! I went
	to Monza, many moons ago, and ended up in what seemed like the middle
	of the 'Tifosi'. It was lucky I happened to be supporting Ferrari at
	the time or I don't think I would have made it alive !

	About the most extraodinary F1 race I went to, in regard to spectator
	reaction, was the British GP in 1976. This was when Hunt and Lauda
	were the top contenders for the chamopionship at that time. There was
	a real fracas after the start going into the first corner causing a
	re-start. Hunt and a couple of others, I think one might have been
	Regazonni, took a short cut back to the pits and were deemed out
	of the race for not completing one complete lap.

	This was announced over the tanoy as the others got themselves lined
	up on the grid with mechanics checking for damage and patching up where
	neccessary for the restart which scheduled for about 20 minutes time.

	The crowd reaction was akin to the hooligan element at some football
	matches, with empty cans and other handy objects being chucked on the
	track. Most of the crowd along the start/finish grandstands were airing
	their feelings about this decision very vocally and a rumour then 
	started going around that a group of spectators were heading towards
	the Clerk of the Course office to protest at this decision. The MacLaren
	team, of course, where also up in arms and protesting at the attendant
	FISA person and the Clerk of the Course, who at this stage must have
	thought it would have been better to watch the race at home, rather
	than be in position he found himself in.

	About ten minutes later it was announced all previously "disqualified"
	drivers would be allowed to restart the race because "insert_suitable_
	excuse_here.

	Now that's what you call xenophobia, or just plain bad behaviour.

	Gordon
	

    There is no doubt in my mind that real driving skills are inherited and
    then sharpened to a fine edge by a "maitre".
    Liken it to the old apprenticeship.
    
    Prost learned a great deal of his "skills" - (not all of them mind you)
    from one of the best - Lauda, as was mentioned one or two notes back.
    Do you remember the furore when Lauda bowed out of the championship
    race in Japan because of the rain?. Seems Prost did much the same in
    Melbourne last season.
    For me, whatever the debate, that is maturity speaking. 
    
    The point I am trying to make here is reflected in the last 10 to 15 laps of
    Silverstone.
    Who has ever seen Senna "nursing" his car to a finish in that fashion?.
    Objectively speaking, and we should all be from our position since we
    are far removed from the drivers themselves, until Senna finds himself a
    new drive he must follow the "best drive" approach not the "fastest
    drive".
    
    Ferrari must offer Mansell's seat to an Italian. The car is beginning
    to run well. Of course not any Italian but a good Italian - any
    favourites?.
    
    
    
    	regards  George Frost
    
    

    Nannini and Capelli come to mind, but I'd almost bet on Ferrari going
    for a lesser known driver.
    
    Dave

    Also, don't forget Minardi will have Ferrari engines so they may get
    their 'Italian Quota' of drivers with that team.
    
    Dave

    An Italian in a Ferrari is tantamount to Saintdom or death - remember
    Alboreto? NO? Ah well! 
    
    As no-one has attempted my Ferrari quiz (must all read Autosport, you
    blighters!) I will tell you that the first Ferrari G.P. "win" (in a
    World Championship race - this was only begun in 1950) was by Froilan
    Gonzalez (the "Pampas Bull" from Argentina) in the British G.P. 1951.
    The 50th was by Niki Lauda (I said LAUDA!) in the 1974 Spanish G.P. (in
    the beautiful 312B3). Lauda has also won the most G.P.s for Ferrari -
    15 between '74 (of which above-mentioned was the first) and '77. Next
    up was Alberto Ascari (13 victories between '51 and '53).
    
    	It would seem to take someone of Lauda's shrewd, analytical and
    straightforward approach to do well in the political battlefield at
    Maranello - maybe Prost is just that person.
    
    Colin

    
    Re-watched a video of "Toys for the boys" last night. Made about
    Williams, just as Honda had left them.
    
    Causes me to feel even more certain that our Nige will be back in a
    Williams ere long -- once they have proved themselves to be consistent
    winners again.

>    Causes me to feel even more certain that our Nige will be back in a
>    Williams ere long 

	Methinks Nigel's wife might have something to say about that !

	Gordon

    Hopefully Mansell will sign for a *decent* team now like TWR or Sauber

    Has anybody any insight into the conditions of Mansell's release fro
    Ferrari?
    
    It surely cannot be as simple as a retirement and a comeback?
    
    It will be a loss but I really cannot see Mansell racing again for a
    year or two.
    What is certain is that Mansell will do his all to assist Prost to the
    Drivers, and Ferrari to the Constructors championship. That is not a
    negligible boost.
    
    Eight races left and Prost/Ferrari will win with five first places.
    Seems to me that that is more than feasible.
    
    	regards  George Frost

>    Has anybody any insight into the conditions of Mansell's release fro
>    Ferrari?
 
 	As far I know his contract was "up" at the end of this season anyway,
	and he stated he would be "charging" up to the very end.

   
>    It surely cannot be as simple as a retirement and a comeback?
 
 	Mansell hasn't mentioned any comeback, he hasn't even retired yet !
	The only people mentioning comebacks are people who want to see him
	continue racing, and can't/won't take his retirement seriously. 
	
	From his interview after the race he gave absolutely NO hint about
	"resting" for a year or so and then driving again.


	Gordon

    The only thing Mansell will be driving for the next year or two will be
    a golf ball!

    Yes he is a very good golfer, but I understand that the balls start
    breaking up by the 15th hole and he has a hard time finishing the
    game.....;-)
    
    
    I am sorry if I hurt any of Nigels fans feelings but I couldn't
    help myself.  :-)
    Long live Ferrari and lets see those 5 wins for both titles.
    regards, and no hard feelings
    FCGT
    

    
    I was surprised that the BEEB didn't pick up on Piquet's exploding
    engine cover!!!!!
    
    We were sat down in Stowe Grandstand and with three laps to go as Prost
    was approaching Piquet half way to three quarters of the Hanger
    straight, suddenly the rear left hand side of Piquets benetton
    exploded!!!!!
    
    Prost was left to dodge throught the wreckage and have a very strange
    approach angle to Stowe!  If he had been just a bit closer, Prost's
    race could have ended there and then, and Senna would have won a totally
    undeserved second place and similarly Boutsen an undeserved first!
    
    Oh well, it all ended okay, so we need not worry!
    
    Steve

    re .609
    
    I see you are including the Lancia/Ferrari wins in with the Ferrari
    wins.  If you seperate the 5 Lancia wins, the 50th Ferrari victory was
    still by Lauda, but not until the Swedish GP in '75.
    
    Did you realize McLaren is up to 83 victories??
    
    Dave

Make	      1st Time Winners	  WDCs from 1st Time Winners
Ferrari	      17		  6 (Ascari*, Hawthorn*, P. Hill*, Surtees*, 
	      			    Andretti, Lauda*)
Lotus	      9			  4 (Clark*, Rindt*, Fittipaldi*, Senna)
Brabham	      5			  2 (Hulme, Piquet*)
BRM	      5			  2 (G. Hill*, Stewart)
Tyrrell	      4			  1 (Scheckter)
Alfa Romeo    3			  2 (Farina*, Fangio*)
Cooper	      3			  1 (Brabham*)
Renault	      3			  1 (Prost)
Williams      3			  1 (Rosberg*)
Benetton      2			  -
Lancia	      2			  -
Ligier	      2			  -
McLaren	      2			  -
Hesketh	      1			  1 (Hunt)
Shadow	      1			  1 (Jones)
Honda	      1			  -
March	      1			  -
Mercedes      1			  -
Penske	      1			  -
Porsche	      1			  -
Vanwall	      1			  -

* Won WDC in that make

    re a few back
    
    	So THAT was all the debris we saw on the approach to the Complex!!
    Even Murray and James didn't know who or what that was all about! A
    quick glance just now at MN confirms that the cover had been loose for
    some time and eventually tore itself off (which allowed Bernard's
    down-on-power Lola to snatch 4th place on the very last lap!).
    
    Colin

    Leyton House Factory Visit Report
    
    Well chaps, I can confirm that Leyton House *are* the friendly team
    in F1. We and about 20 other fan club members had an excellent tour
    of the Bicester factory yesterday, here are some random notes that
    weren't under non-disclosure rules :-)
    
    I'll do them in the order of the tour:-
    
    Assembly area
    
    Three cars were being stripped down/rebuilt after Silverstone. The
    test team had already left for Hockenheim for the two day FOCA test.
    This also meant that Gugelmin couldn't be there for the day.
    
    Each chassis is valued at around #55k. Gugelmin's Ricard wreck was
    rebuilt! Undertray's cost #10k each and last for one race. LH use
    BP fuel as do Lotus and Lola but the use a unique blend. They also
    have a special blend for qualifying which ups the BHP by about 30
    to 670ish. 
    
    Electronics
    
    The telemetry used is basic in comparison to Honda who beam back
    figures to Japan on-line. The Judd is designed to rev to around
    12.5/13k. At Silverstone Ivan peaked at 14.3! The Digital CAD system
    was off-limits as was the model shop!
    
    Wing Room
    
    This also stored all the expired parts. Suspensions, exhuasts etc
    are typically changed every 2 or 3 races to remove the chance of
    failure. They are the scrap and some are used for display cars.
    The differences between the high and low downforce nose cones was
    very apparent close up. For high force tracks like Monaco the nose
    is around 8 inches shorter. They also commented that the ride height
    adjustment is critical to 1/8 inch - hence the difficulties in set
    up this year.
    
    Carbon Fibre Area
    
    A new undertray was being formed ready for the on-site auto-clave.
    The carbon is *so* light, and the honeycomb aluminium so small,
    its difficult to believe how strong it is.
    
    Drawing Office
    
    Not much going on, awaiting Chris Murphy's arrival.
    
    F3000 Factory
    
    In a separate buliding was the F3000 stuff supporting three European
    cars and three Japanese cars. Nothing much was happening as the
    team was on its way to Enna. But we did see the 40% wind tunnel
    model and have a chat to Andrew Gilbert-Scott who gave a good insight
    into driving on Mulsanne at 240 in the dark, rain and fog!
    
    After all this they had laid on dinner at a restaurant called
    Rigoletto's in Middleton Stoney, a favourite of Ivan's plus all
    the Benetton boys and Boutsen. Over dinner some interesting stuff
    came out.
    
    Newey was on a #1m pa contract. He was given an ultimatum to make
    the '91 car simple and comfortable, but wanted to go with a semi
    auto box and some sort of active ride *plus* similar aerodynamics.
    Gugelmin has many bruises and scars from the cramped cockpit.
    
    A new purpose built factory is planned to accomodate F1/F3000 and
    F3 for around three years out.
    
    Budget from Mr Akagi is around #15m.
    
    Marlboro chip in $50k to Ivan. They are very hopeful of keeping
    both drivers for '91, although obviously Ferrari would be a temptation
    for Ivan. There is, however, a great deal of loyalty in the team.
    Ivan's contract is up this year, but his close links with Akagi
    may well clinch the deal.
    
    Leyton House is basically a leisure/real estate company in Japan.
    The name came from the fact that the upmarket bits of Tokyo are
    in the east of the city. Akagi looked at a map of London and saw
    Leyton in the east end! Akagi is very into British engineering and
    Latin drivers!
    
    There was loads more but that's some of the more interesting bits
    to non-LH fans. If you think of any specific questions I'll try
    and answer them.
    
    Paul

    I forgot -
    
    The Ilmor will run in a slave car around September. The target is
    for a new car from day 1 in '91, not for Imola. The deal is 4 year
    exclusive, and is worth around #20m. They expect BHP to be on a
    par with end of season Renault.
    
    Paul
    

Here's a list of the teams who gave the future World Driver Champions their 
start in GP racing.  The drivers with *'s next to them have won the title 
while driving that make as well.

It's interesting to note, while Tyrrell is noted for up and coming drivers, 
only one started his career there.

Lotus	      5 (G. Hill*, Clark*, Surtees, Fittipaldi*, Andretti*)
Cooper	      3 (Hawthorn, Brabham*, Rindt)
Alfa Romeo    2 (Farina*, Fangio*)
Ferrari	      2 (Ascari*, P. Hill*)
BRM	      2 (Stewart, Lauda)
Brabham	      1 (Hulme*)
March	      1 (Hunt)
Tyrrell	      1 (Scheckter)
Hill	      1 (Jones)
Ensign	      1 (Piquet)
Theodore      1 (Rosberg)
McLaren	      1 (Prost*)
Toleman	      1 (Senna)

Disclaimer:  I'm pretty sure this is accurate, if it isn't I'll gladly update 
	      it.

Re: -.1 One correction and a couple of queries!

Andretti drove for at least Ferrari and Parnelli before he won the championship
for Lotus - I remember him partnering Chris Amon and Jackie Ickx at various
times. Did he have a drive for Lotus at the start of his distinguished career?

I'm pretty sure that Jones started off in a Hesketh 308B (ex-Hesketh team). It
was dark blue with a red stripe from front to back. The sponsor was Harry
Somebody-or-other (Harry Stiller?). 

Did Prost debut for McLaren? I remember that he scored a point for 6th place in
his debut (Brazil '80?); but can't remember the team.

I like this game of reminiscing without books...!

Steve 

I have Andretti's first race as the '68 Watkins Glen GP in a third Lotus (along
with Graham Hill and Jo Siffert).  He then drove for March, Ferrari and Parnelli
before switching back to Lotus.

Jones: Drove a Hill-Ford in '75 (scored 2 points in Germany), went on to Surtees,
Shadow and Williams.  Maybe the Hill entry was an old Hesketh car??

Prost:  Yup, it was a McLaren, scored a 6th in his first race (Argentina) and 
a 5th in his second (Brazil)

Dave

RE: -.1

Thanks for the information on Andretti. I remember now, because he qualified 
on pole didn't he (it was all a bit before my time :-) ). Thanks for the
clarification on Prost. McLaren did a similar thing with Villeneuve - Grand
Prix debut, but let him sign with another team.

I'm sure about Jones though - he drove Harry Stiller's Hesketh at a couple of
races in 1974. They may have been non-Championship (Race of Champions etc.) -
does your book cover this sort of detail?

In '75 he drove Embassy/Hill-Fords with Tony Brise - as you said. These were
cars designed by a promising designer (was his name Andy Smallman?). What a sad
ending to that team later in the year... 

Steve.

Yes, Andretti did have the pole for that race.

Some of info from the mid '70's back only lists the drivers if they finished
in the points, took pole or fastest laps or did something dramatic (like die...)

If you can get the info on the races Jones did in '74 I'd appreciate it.

Do you have DECdecision available?  I have a database in Access that you might
find interesting.

Dave

    To continue the Andretti theme.....
    
    Last night's coverage of the Toronto CART race had the news that
    Al Unser Jnr had re-signed for Galles-Kraco for another 3 years
    ending speculation about a move to F1 for now. However, there was
    a lot of rumour/speculation about Michael Andretti following Dad
    to Europe and going to ---------
    
    
    FERRARI!!!!!!!
    
    There is actually a lot of logic in this. Obviously there are the
    family links, he is part Italian, he is a good draw for F1 in the
    US, and he would be cheaper that an established F1 driver. 
    
    As for the other candidates, Senna would mean losing Prost, Alesi
    is rumoured to have already signed for Williams and is a Camel man
    not a Marlboro' man, Capelli is very close to the owners at L/House
    and Nannini is supposed to have re-signed for Benetton. Patrese
    has been mentioned but I reckon he is too old/hasn't won enough
    and Larini, who they have an option on, hasn't really cut it so
    far.
    
    I reckon they could do a lot worse than Andretti Jnr. It would also
    add to the Phoenix crowd a bit!
    
    Paul

    There are a lot of potentially VERY good F1 drivers running F3 at the
    moment. I would hedge my opinion and suggest that what Prost and
    Ferrari need (note the order), is a promising novice to F1 picked from
    the F3 pack. 
    
    If this is the way that they go '91 will be very difficult for Ferrari
    - totally dependent on Prost for their points -  but well set up for the 
    seasons that follow.
    
    An Aside for the moment. Why did Mansell swerve to his left at the
    start of Silverstone?? and did everyone else notice the total lack of
    exchanges (verbal or otherwise) between Prost and Senna, on the Podium?
    That must be very ominous. 
    To continue the confrontation so long off the track has to bring it
    into focus on the track. 
    
    Who is going to win on Sunday? ( I do wish it was still on the
    Nurbergring?). Now there was a circuit! tks for the help Ken - I
    thought that they built Hockenheim on the cut down Nurbergring??
    Not having been to Hockenheim!!
    
    The biggest problem has to be the driver fatigue in the summer heat.
    Does anyone recall the absolutely haggard expression on the face of
    Prost after the Brasil GP?. Heat, high G's and total concentration.
    The two best at that game are Senna and Prost.
    
    So for me, I am going to basket my bets and say:
    
    
    			Prost		(I would like)
    		
    			Senna
    
    			 or
    
    			Senna
    
    			Prost
    
    	Followed by Piquet, Alesi, Nakagima, Berger  in any order.
    
    
    		regards  George Frost
                                     

    I'll go for Senna or Prost too, with Berger as an outside bet. I
    reckon Mansell may well get into defensive driving to protect Prost
    for the next few races, before trying to go out with a couple of
    wins.
    
    As for his move on Senna, it looked like blatant aggression to me.
    If it had been Senna doing it, we'd have had J-MB calling for all
    sorts of things to be done to him.
    
    The revived L/House team aren't expecting too much at Hockenheim
    as they will get out-dragged on the straights by the V10s and V12s.
    They may well be in the top 6 at the end though.
    
    Neck on block time:
    
    1 Senna
    2 Prost
    3 Mansell
    4 Capelli
    5 Piquet
    6 Gugelmin (He deserves *some* luck!!)
    
    Paul

    From Vogon this am
    
    Temperatures at Hockenheim were about 42C on the track making testing
    difficult. Piquet was fastest in the first session at 1:43.98 using
    the Series IV engine. Senna was fastest in the second session at
    1:41.37. Prost did a 1:41.54 in the second session and blew up a
    new engine after 3 laps.
    
    Anybody know what the pole time was last year?
    
    Paul

    	Excuse the somewhat belated comments but I've been away.
    
    	Leyton House's sudden emergence as a competitive entity from
    	the ranks of the DNQs seems to have surprised absolutely
    	everybody. Most surprised of all was probably the LH team
    	themselves. The car, apart from the now de rigeur push rod
    	front suspension looks just the same as the 88 model. The
    	improvement being put down to aerodynamic changes, which
    	has to be assumed to be a new undertray etc. since it looks
    	the same otherwise.
    
    	The new improved engines are slow in coming. The Ferrari 
    	appearing for practice only (clearly unreliable) and the
    	Cosworth finally making it to the British in time for the
    	race where it probably didn't get a fair airing. No sign
    	of a better Renault.
    
    	In a long article published in the press just before the
    	British GP, Mansell is quoted as being full of optimism
    	and intent on carrying on to win the world championship etc.
    
    	Two days later he's spouting off about retirement, been planning
    	it for ages apparently!. Really it's fairly easy to work out
    	what's happening. Mansell wants a drive in a top car but these
    	aren't forthcoming. McLaren wouyld rather keep Senna, and he's
    	not going to work with Mansell, neither would Piquet over at
    	Benetton. Hence it's Williams or stay. Well Williams aren't
    	totally convinced that they want him back and Ferrari having
    	seen what the best really looks like don't really want Nige
    	at all, and certainly aren't going to pay top whack.
    
    	All of this could change of course, if Senna say leaves McLaren,
    	but Mansell isn't prepared to wait. Of course there are other
    	contenders for 91 ie. Tyrrell but they're not interested in
    	paying big money. 
    
    	Personally I find it best not to take seriously anything that
    	Mansell says so the retirement can't be assumed to be certain 
    	by any means whatsoever. However with a bit of luck he really
    	might retire.
    
    	The racing this year has been the best for a long, long time
    	and seems to get better race by race. Unfortunately the 
    	retirements of Berger and Mansell in GB has resulted in the
    	two horse race syndrome again - but there's a long way to go
    	yet.	
    
    	-John

note .632 reminded me about something I read in the paper on Friday...

Mansell wants to form his own F1 team in association with a pro. golfer
(Faldo I think)

does anyone know anymore about this?


...art

RE: -.1

I think Mansell's serious about retiring. If you've got a big ego then, once
you've said something in public - even if it was spur of the moment,
then it's very difficult for you to retract the comment. I think that only an
impassioned appeal from a team manager/another top driver would massage his
bruised pride sufficiently to change his mind. And don't forget that he's got a
wife who will have had more than a little say in the matter.

F1 is high pressure at the top; in the last year we've seen Mansell, Senna and
Prost all complaining bitterly about something or other; instead of shutting
up. None of them has won any friends in the process.

If Mansell was a little less hard on his car then I think that he would be in
contact with the leaders. Anyone else get the impression that HE pranged his
(admittedly delicate) gearbox at Silverstone with his first attempt to overtake
Senna? Remember how he overran the corner and had to go down the automatic
gearbox. His intermittent problems seemed to start shortly afterwards.

Make no mistake, Mansell is a great (not just good) driver; however he should
learn to lose with a bit more grace, and not blame ALL of his woes on other
drivers/his equipment.

Cheers

Steve

     <<< Note 837.633 by VOGON::ATWAL "Dreams, they complicate my life" >>>

>> Mansell wants to form his own F1 team in association with a pro. golfer
>> (Faldo I think)

Haven't read it; however it would have to be Greg Norman - they do everything
(well, nearly everything) together.

    Last year Greg Norman was very interested in buying Lotus or Brabham,
    fuelled by his friendship with "Our Nige". It all came to nought
    tho' and now Mansell is heavily invloved with the Mansell-Madgewick
    F3000 team running in both the European and UK championships. They've
    been doing rather well, with Pedro Chaves winning in the UK and
    Morbidelli (Ferrari's test driver) running at the top and winning
    yesterday's round at Enna-Pergusa.
    
    I reckon the British folk hero has done it for real, and although
    I won't miss the over the top adulation at Silverstone and the
    whinging, I will miss the 110% committment and effort. I still maintain
    that he was a moral world champion, and that the F1 scene will be
    poorer without him. I would also have liked to have seen how the
    Williams goes with a real No 1 driver.
    
    Still, there's a good batch of British youngsters coming along,
    McNish, Hill, Irvine, Donnelly, Herbert, Coulthard, Gilbert-Scott
    etc, so we should be challenging the Italians soon. 
    
    It will be interesting to see who the Silverstone crowd cheer for
    next year.
    
    As for Mansell's reasons, I reckon they are genuine, and that he
    realised that the title was not destined for him. I stand to be
    corrected!
    
    Paul

    Sorry, I mixed up my Morbidelli with my Motormini. Mansell's driver
    is the later, and had run at the front but not won.
    
    Paul