Conference 7.286::home_work

    I'm looking for sliding doors for a bathtub area. It is a standard
    size (either 5' or 5 1/2', I don't recall). I know that 2 door
    sliders exist, what I want is a triple door. Anyone know of
    this existing?
    
    Dave L

    I've seen one at "North Andover Building Supply" {in North Andover
    of course}. It had three seperate glass pannels which interlocked
    when closed. However, the glass itself and the aluminum frame around
    the glass seemed to be much thinner than the 2-door type. I'm looking
    for one also, I've been advised to look for the type with a trackless
    bottom (that's the part that fits on top of the tub and holds the
    bottom of the doors) cause those tracks are a pain to clean. This
    triple door model had deep narrow tracks (looked hard to clean).
    So, I didn't seriously consider that one.  If your interested in
    it I can go and get the manufacturers name and model number {send
    me mail}. The price was about $170.
                                                       
    mike
    

    Sears, sells triple panel glass sliders for tubs.  I remember seeing
    them in the catalog and cannot give any more info.
    
    If you have small kids (of the type that you must personally bathe),
    I would strongly recommend 3 vs. 2 panel enclosures.
    
    Jim Pappas

    I'm rebuilding our downstairs bathroom and want to replace the tub
    with a shower located in the corner of the room.  I believe what
    I want is a "neo-angle" shower configuration:
    
    	wall --> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                            |                   +
                            |                   +
                            |                   +
                            |      Shower       +
                            |                   +
                             \                  +
                              \                 +
                     door -->  \                +
                                \_______________+
                                                +
                                                +
                                                +
    
    The Sears catalog includes several glass shower enclosures of this
    style.  However, they look CHEAP (not inexpensive, but poor quality).
    I've also seen similar units in store catalogs, but no place has
    a demo setup.
    
    Any comments, alternative, or shopping suggestions will be greatly
    appreciated.
    
    -- Ward

We put a shower like that in our house.  We got a single piece fiberglass unit
that looks real nice.  It doesn't have any side walls or door (just the 2 corner
walls), so we have to use a curtain, but that's fine with me.  I think that 
several of the major fiberglass enclosure people make them.  Again, you're 
welcome to come out to our house to take a look at it if you're interested.

Or you could build it totally yourself out of tile, using the aritcle in this 
month's fine homebuilding as a guide.

Paul

    I'd been considering just a shower curtain instead of the glassed-in
    enclosure, but I'm concerned how well the curtain keeps water inside
    the shower area.
    
    How well does the curtain seal at the walls?  at the floor?
    
    Also, what type of curtain rod do you have?  Is there any support
    at the corner (away from the walls)?
    
    -- Ward

We moved into our house in a state of incompletion, and we don't have a curtain 
up for that shower.  (Until last night my son was using our bathroom as his 
bedroom.  He's 5 months old now, and just moved into his just-completed room).

I don't expect any problems with it.  I would imagine the side seals would be 
the same as the side seals on a regular tub shower.  The shower unit has a 5" 
high curb around the open side, so the bottom seal should not be a problem 
either.

The curtain rod, though, has definitely been a point of question.  I'm currently
planning to make one out of copper plumbing pipe.  If I make a complete circuit 
of the shower stall and attach it both in the corner and the sides, it ought to 
hold up the outer edge:

                           |                 | 
			 ,-+-----------------+-.
			|                       |
			|			+-
			|                       |
			|                       |
			|                       |
			 \                      |
			   \                    |
			     \                  |
			       \                |
				 \              +-
				   \            |
				    `-----------'

And if I make sure to get all the solder off of the outside, it ought to look 
nice, too.

    There is a brand called TUB MASTER that is two panel door(vinyl)
    but it also folds like an accordian that is really good for cleaning
    and bathing small children.  Mass Hardware in Acton has it.  They
    are garranteed for life in the original home where it was installed.
    Come in colors, also.  Worth taking a look at.  

    Have it nickel or chrome plated and it should look like a real custom
    mucho bucks piece out of the fancy magazine.
    
    BB

    My folks used to have one of the folding panel tub enclosures. 
    They do work well but the are not as nice as glass units.  Vinyl
    just doesn't cut it with me.
    
    Jim Pappas
    
    (ps.  the old accordian unit is now replaced with a glass unit.)

    I think the TUB MASTER is worth taking a look at.  We had one in
    one house for 20 years and it is still like new.  We also bought
    two more when we moved into our current home and they look really nice
    and it comes in colors also.

	I have been looking for an attachment to add to an old fashioned
bath tub to add a shower. I remember seeing what I want in older apartments
in Boston. They contained a rod which encircled the oval bathtub which held a
shower curtain which was suspended from the ceiling. 
	I heard a friend had found an all brass one in a bath shop for $650,
but I am looking for something considerably cheaper either new or used.I
    also do not want to put in a new bath/shower combo.
	 Any leads? or ideas would be greatly appreciated!


						Rick



                                                       

    Do you mean a rubber hose that runs from the bath faucet up to a
    shower head?  And a shower curtain ring that attaches to the wall
    at the shower head?  Sears sells it for about $20.
    

     ......And guess who else sells those portable showers????
    
                         SPAGGETS!
    

	Nope! Thanks anyway ,but portable showers belong outside attached
to the faucet for the garden hose.
	The item I am looking for is a conversion kit for an old oval bath
tub which is an oval ring the size of the tub with an attached shower head.
	It gives you the capabilities of having a shower curtain all the way
around the tub. 
	I've looked at portables and handheld models with a large variety 
of prices and they do not suit the character of the bathroom as I want to 
attach this to the existing plumbing and have the capabilities to turn it on 
and off at will. 
	Is anyone familiar with this piece of hardware? And know where I can
get one at a reasonable price new or used?

    re last:
              That's what I thought I saw...... It has the oval tubing
            which enables you to put a curtain all the way around but
            it has a hose with an adapter which hooks up to the faucet.
            ...and yes it has a shower head attached. I never have seen
            one that you hook up to the plumbing though.    BB
    

    	re.4 Could you attach it with convential plumbing which is hooked
    up to the tub already?
    
    							Rick
    

    We also have an old tub without a shower.  About 3 years ago,
    I got the following from Sears for $85.  
    
       Complete loop of 1/2" tubing for shower curtain
       Two 12" pieces of tubing to support the loop
       48" "gooseneck" with shower head
       New faucet with attachment on top to connect to gooseneck
    
    Water normally comes out of the faucet, but when you lift a little
    lever on top of the faucet, the water goes up the gooseneck.  
    
    
    Mark
    

    Have you heard of Renovator's Supply. I recall seeing those things
    in their catalog. I have one home if you are interested.
    
    sd
    

    Somerville carries what you are looking for, and yes, you can hook
    into the existing plumbing for the tub (assuming you can find it).
     You can always hook into water lines - it's the waste plumbing
    that has rules on when/where/why/how you can hook into existing.
    -reed
    

    Since we are having company for the holidays, I thought I would
    clean the shower curtain.  I put it in the washer with a little
    detergent and a big dollop of white vinegar.  Then when the wash
    cycle was done, it was hung back up in the tub to dry.  Although
    all the mildew is gone, it left stains.  How do I clean that short
    of putting it down on the floor and scrubbing with a sponge?  Should
    I give up and just get a new one?  Any advice would be greatly 
    appreciated.

    The shower curtain needs to go thru a rinse to avoid the stains.
    Either let the complete washer cycle complete (with rinse/spin)
    or you can just run the shower on the curtain (both sides) before
    it dries.
    
    Could also try bleach and Lysol in the wash.
    
    -al

    MY WIFE THROWS IN HEAVY TOWELS WITH THE CURTAINS WHEN SHE WASHES
    THEM IN THE WASHER AND THEY ALWAYS COME OUT COMPLETELY CLEAN !!!!
    
    DONT THINK ANYTHING EXE
    EXCEPT SOAP IS ADDED EITHER !
    
    LLOYD
    

       My wife always uses hot  water  to  wash the shower curtain, it
    makes the  plastic  more  flexible and easier to clean.  She  also
    uses liquid detergent.  Another  tip  to avoid cleaning  as  often 
    is to cut the lip  off  of the bottom of the curtain. Every shower
    curtain has ~ 1/4  inch  seam/lip  running along the bottom of it.
    If this is cut off, the water runs off and dries quicker, stopping
    the growth of alge from the bottom up. Give it a try!
    

    i use bleach and powder soap, hot, standard cycle........

    Whenever I wanted to clean shower curtains, I simply filled the
    tub with water, added a little bleach, put the curtains in, and
    came back an hour or two later to rinse them off.
    
                                                August G. Reinig

    After having installed a one piece fiberglass shower my wife complains
    of how difficult it is to clean.  I was told by someone that applying
    a coat of automotive wax to it every now and then would make it
    a easier job.
    
    Has anyone heard of this or tried it?  Any thoughts or opinions?
    
    Thanks for your replies,
    Scott Harvell

There is a product called 'fiberglass tub and shower magic (I buy it 
at spags) which essentially waxes the tub.  It wears off in about 2-3 
months.  Also - "scrub free" is real good at taking stains out of 
fiberglass (use in a well-ventilated room, with no one under 10 in the 
house).

    I have had the same problem. Here's what I found:
    
 1. The manufacture recommends that you use a paste car wax on the
    CLEAN tub. We used the shower before waxing it and could not get
    the stains out well enough to use the wax.
    
2.  I found a product similar to .2, called GEL GLOSS. It is sold in
    many plumbing stores (Maynard Supply on Rt62 for one) for about
    $5. It is fantastic. It cleans the stains and restores the shine.
    I am not sure how long it lasts, but I have used it on both showers
    and for the first time since we moved it, the showers look great.
    
    One tip with this stuff: If the floor of your shower is textured,
    they recommend that you use a brush to scrub the GEL GLOSS in --
    it works!
    
    Good luck
    

    The product that we use is called 'Gel-Gloss' and is recommended
    by the particular manufacturer of the fiberglass tub that we have.
    
    Works great and lasts about the same as the product mentioned in
    .1.
    
    Charlie

	Gel Gloss is even good for stainless steel, fiberglass boats,
	and a host of other things....

    Thanks for all the replies.  It looks like the GEL GLOSS is just
    the kind of stuff that I am looking for.  Anyone out there have
    any idea where I might find some in the Merrimack N.H. area?
    
    Again Thanks for all those that replied,
    Scott

	As much as I hate to endorse Grossmans, that's where I found it.

	-gary

    Ahhh! Someone else who hates Grossman's.  And I was getting
    lonesome.....
    /bruce
    

    Sundeen lumber in Manchester also has it!  

    We use the Scrub-Free for regular cleaning. Soap scum, water spots,
    stains gone like magic, no elbow grease, and no need to polish
    afterward.

    Finally got the GEL GLOSS from Grossmans this weekend.  Applied
    it last night, quite a workout after the soap scum accumulates but
    I got it done.  Seems to work well.
    
    Many thanks to all of you who took the time to answer.
    Scott

    Believe it or not, Comet Cleanser has just come out with a new
    label on their product that states, to the effect:
    
    "Approved by Owens-Corning in the cleaning of Fiberglass showers
     and Tubs."
    
    Haven't tried it yet, though. Has anybody else tried the 'new'
    Comet Cleanser? Yea or Nea?
    
    Charlie

    RE: .2    

>2. I found a product similar to .2, called GEL GLOSS. It is sold in
>   many plumbing stores (Maynard Supply on Rt62 for one) for about
>   $5. It is fantastic. It cleans the stains and restores the shine.

    Wow!!!  Is this the same Gel_Gloss I bought at Spag's for $1.99???
    Somebody's getting rich...
        

RE:: .10

Be careful with the scrub free - the fumes are quite nasty and hard to 
ventilate out of an interior bathroom (even with fan)

    This Gel-Gloss stuff sounds like magic - can you use it on regular
    tubs with tile walls?

    If the problem really is a leaky pipe, I'd leave the tile/wall paper
    wall alone and access from the other side.  If your real lucky,
    that would be through a closet...  Anyway, sheetrock is much easier
    to patch back together than tile/wall paper.
    

      Ditto on .2 Open the wall behind the plumbing, do what you have
    to, then put a removable panel into the opening which you can then
    paint or wallpaper to match the wall it's on. That way you can have
    access for future use and you don't mess up you tiles.
    
      Note: this is done very often, sometimes it's done when a house
    is first constructed.
    
    					Kenny

before i knock ANY walls open, i'd check all the valves.
    
    turn off the water supply, and take the handles and hardware
    apart from the front.. you might need a set of deep sockets
    to get the stems out, but you can get a set for tubs for
    around $7.00.  check this out first, it's cheap and you can
    probably see the pipes with the stems out.
    
    if everything there is ok and you are sure that the leak is from
    the tub (double check the ceiling below to make sure the tub supply
    is above the stains) then definately go in from behind (if possible).
    again, chances are you'll find a closet there, so you won't mind
    opening that wall.
    
    i'll hazard a guess - check to see if the shower head wobbles.
    i've seen a lot of cases where it is not secured firmly behind the
    wall, so everytime someone adjusts it it puts some stress on the
    joint.  eventually the joint opens.  if this is the case, after
    you redo the joint, secure the shower head pipes.  then, try to
    find a position that is good for everybody who uses it, and don't
    move the head back and forth.
    
    brian

    I had a problem last fall with a bathroom sink on the second floor
    leaking. I had very old lead drain pipe that had cracked. I opened
    up the ceiling downstairs to get at the plumbing. It was a mess
    but it was the easiest way to get at the pipes. While I had the
    ceiling open I replaced ALL the plumbing to the tub, sink and toliet.
    Then I made trap doors in key places so I could get at anyplace
    that might devolope a leak later on.
    
    If you have to open a wall, it would be worth it to replace everything
    while you are in there.
    
    Mark

    re: .10,.14
    
    If you use scrub stuff you scratch the fiberglass.  If you
    use bleach, you kill the guys that make the septic tank work.  I
    am using Tough Act, which I bought at Spag's for $1.49.  It's scrub
    free, scratch free, bleach free and fume free, and it does a great job
    on the soap scum and mildew on the fiberglass tub.  It's specifically
    recommended for fiberglass.
    
    But it sounds like I should try Gel Gloss as well.  Is it in Plumbing?
    
    Elaine
    

    re: Gel Gloss at Spag's
    
    Last time I was there, it was specifically to get some.  We wandered
    into the Schoolhouse and I was fondling a huge display of 12 gauge
    outdoor extensions, wondering aloud where they might keep the Gel
    Gloss.  I turned around and started walking without looking and nearly
    fell over about 100 cases of the stuff in the middle of the aisle. 
    
    -joet

    GEL GLOSS works well but requires lots of elbow grease to work.
    
    Found my husband using a product called SIMPLE GREEN on our 
    fiberglass boat.  He raved about the stuff cleaning without
    much scrubbing.  Tried it on the fiberglass walls in my tub
    and it worked as well as GEL GLOSS.
    
    Bought the first bottle at ADAP for $4.99 and found it at
    SPAG's for 2.79.
    
    The stuff also claims to work on rugs and in laundry.  Haven't 
    tried it yet but did here someone talking about it removing 
    a stain on their rug.
    
    Judie
    
    

    I've tried many things. Gel Gloss is ok, but you have to work hard.
    
    In the plumbing section of Spag's, right near the Gel Gloss and
    other cleaners, is a row of large bottles of products made by a
    company called RAMCO. They have something called FIBERGLASS CLEANER.
    The label says "for industrial use." Contains no phosphates. Works
    great.
    
    If you don't mind using phosphoric acid, they have a TILE CLEANER
    that will clean anything without scratching. Don't use this if you
    have a private sewer.
    
    Marty

    I've been using 'Bon Amie' on my fiberglass tub/shower.  The can
    has all kinds of endorsements from Corning Ware, etc. and so far,
    I have been believing the 'Hasn't scratched yet' claim.  Am I in
    for a rude surprise after a couple years of using this stuff?
    
    Regarding all the elbow grease needed to go with Gel Gloss or whatever
    your favorite cleaner is, check out one of those Black and Decker
    'Scrub Brushers'.  What a great little tool for heinous scrubbing
    jobs.  Old-fashioned elbow grease may be cheaper $$$-wise, but
    time-wise, this thing knocks the socks off my wimpy elbows.
    
    Louise

    Also, try using Dobie Pads.
    

    I have an old tub with feet and the original faucet and would like
    to have either a tub/shower diverter or a shower. I've been to about
    six plumbing supply places and they had two solutions to offer.
    
    The first was a replacement faucet which had a diverter built in
    and came with a shower pipe and curtain rod. This would be OK, but
    it was plastic which seemed pretty lame. 
    
    The second thing was a clamp on thing which also comes with the
    shower pipe and rod assembly. This looked like a major kluge.
    
    I'd appreciate help in the form of 

      1. A source for a replacement faucet with a built in diverter
         which is of good quality (i.e. not plastic).
    
      2. A new idea. I'll describe what I now have on the faucet. The
         spout is a type of fitting which is similar to a sink supply line
         attachment, but the threads of the free nut-like piece are on the
         outside rather than the inside as they are in the standard
         configuration. The threads are some non-plumbing machine threads.
       
         The best thing I could think of was to try attaching a sink
         supply pipe and then finding some shower pipe that could be
         made to fit the 3/8" pipe. It will all be visible so it has
         to look reasonable.
     
         Thanks.
    
             mitch

RE: .0 

>    I have an old tub with feet and the original faucet and would like
>    to have either a tub/shower diverter or a shower. I've been to about
>    six plumbing supply places and they had two solutions to offer.
    
	There is a company which specializes in old things, The Renovator's
	Supply there are a bunch of them but off hand the only one I remember
	is in Brookline, MA.  They are not a discount house but may have
	what you want at a reasonable (affordable) price.

	If you need more info send me mail.

					Good Luck Randy

    Our upstairs apartment has one of those things that just attaches
    to the old faucet and diverts it into a shower.  It works very well
    and really isn't all that much of a kludge.
    
    they sell them at MASS HARDWARE in Waltham (on Newton St) and I'm
    sure they sell them at other places.  The kits come complete with
    the diverter, shower pipe and an oval shaped shower curtain rod
    (and of course mounting hardware)
    
    
    -bill

    re .1: Renovator's Supply
           1630 Beacon St.
           Brookline, MA
           739-6088
    
    Thanks. I'll check them out.
    
         mitch

Rennovator's also has a store at the entrance to Old Sturbridge Village,
in Sturbridge, and the headquarters/factory at Millers Falls,mass.  Any
issue of Victorian Homes will have several suppliers also.  Brass is
the more $expensive$ version, but I recall Sommerville Lumber having
a chrome setup with shower curtain, for $60 - $75.

    Renovator's Supply was only able to offer the two solutions whcih
    I had already encountered and found unacceptable. 
    
    re -.1: Do you suspect that Somerville sells something that doesn't
    strap on or isn't made of plastic?
    
       mitch

    
    	Try a True-Value Hardware store.  Not sure exactly what your
    looking for, but we use to sell an aluminum model that had the 
    wrap around tube for the curtain, shower head, and adapter for
    the spout, all in one kit.  I believe it is made out of 1/2 inch
    aluminum and looks pretty nice.  Unfortunately, this may be an
    item that you can't be too particular about since these type tubs
    are not common any longer.
    	If they don't have one in stock, ask them to look it up in
    thier order-catalog and get you one.  If I think of it, the next
    time I'm in the store I use to work in, I'll even look up the order
    number and mail it to you.

    We have used the old tubs and added showers in several remodling
    with good results. It adds a shower while maintaining the advantage
    of the size of the old tubs and it's fairly cheap, but it's also
    a bit of work.
    
    Build a shell about with the top about an inch higher than the lip
    on the tub. Cut a hole and set the tub in just like when you install
    a sink. At the faucet end of the tub, build a wall an run the pipe
    for the shower up through the wall. You can even add shower doors.
    The best material for the shell is 2X4's and wonderboard. 
    
    It's a bit of work, but you'll love it.

    
    re: old tubs
    
    	Check Sear's '87 Home, Hardware and Leisure Cat. I have one
    in front of me and they sell brass fixtures to fit old tubs. Looks
    very nice but does cost some $$$.
    
    							bill..g.
    
    
    							

    Other possible mailorder sources for the shower fixtures 
    who might have what your looking for:
                          
    A-Ball Plumbing Supply
    1703 Burnside Stree
    Portland, Oregon; 97209
    (503)228-0026
    
    Barclay Products
    424 North Oakley Boulevard
    Chicago, Illinois; 60612
    (312)243-1444
    
    Old House Store
    2154 North Halsted
    Chicago, Illinois; 60614
    (312)472-0777
    
    Besco Plumbing
    729 Atlantic Avenue
    Boston, Mass; 02111
    (617)423-4535
    
    Remodelers and Renovators
    512 W. Idaho
    Boise, Idaho; 83702
    (208)344-8612
    
    Hope this helps,
    
    curt

    Somerville Lumber did he have an all metal faucet which was pretty
    nice. It can be used with the converter/shower rod kit which they
    also sell. Thanks for the help.
    
        mitch

    I am purchasing fixtures for a new bathroom.  I plan to put in a
    corner shower, and like the looks and feel of one made by New Hampshire
    Marble.  The product is cast-molded  from a material containing
    80% limestone powder and the remainder a polyester resin.  It comes
    in a variety of colors, as well as "onyx" and "marble" looks.  I've
    been told that it is a solid material, so that if it gets scratched
    or chipped, it can be sanded and then polished with polishing compound.
    It is quite heavy -- the 36" base weighs in at 85 lbs. The back walls
    are 1/2 thick sheets of the same material.  The other shower walls 
    and the door will be glass and aluminum (made by Century). 
                                                          
    Overall, this setup feels more solid and looks nicer (opinions)
    than the fiberglass and acrylic products I've seen.  It's also more
    expensive (just under $1,000).  I saw the products at County Supply
    in Lowell (great showroom), but will buy them (at a better price) 
    at Merrimack (NH) Kitchen and Bath.                                                         
                                               
    I'd like to hear comments from people who may have New Hampshire
    Marble products -- how they hold up to use and abuse and cleaning.
                                              
    I guess I'd also like to hear from people who have used Corian for
    shower solutions.  I ruled this out because I or someone would have
    to fabricate a base from the corian sheets.  Surprisingly, the Corian
    would cost only slightly more than the New Hampshire Marble shower
    base/walls. 
           
    Thanks for any comments.
    Joe                     
                            
                                              
    
    
    
                                                         

This could probably get buried in some other note, but I think it deserves
its own topic.

I know what I want but I'm not sure what to call it.  I want to build a stall
shower that is NOT a prefab.  The plumber said the best way to do this is to
line the base with a copped pan and to install my tiles over it, thereby getting
a watertight seal.  I've also seen various discussions about types of sheetrock
and wonderboard to use.

My questions is what are all the components and steps one goes through to get to
the finished product!  I'm not too concerned on how to lay tiles as I've done 
this before.  I'd like to know how one gets a copper pan, how the tiles are
attached to it (can you use mastic directly on top of the copper or do you need
a base coat of something).  What comes after the pan, wonderboard?  Should I run
it all the way to the ceiling?  How about doors - do they come in standard
sizes and can I save big $$$ if I pick one of those sizes?

How's that for a start?

-mark

    Mark,
    	I'm in the middle of building a shower and should be able to
    'get wet' in about a month.  I too do not like the one piece Fiberglas
    stalls and wanted a 'real' tile shower.  I've got an article from
    an old "Fine Homebuilding" that describes the copper pan process.
    Basically you get some one to build a copper pan in the shape that
    you want, get a drain welded in, then line the whole thing with a expensive
    membrane or hot tar.  From there it must be built up  with pea size
    pebbles, and coated in mortar shaped to form the top surface, being
    careful not to clog the drain holes.  The surface can then be tiled.
    It looked too complicated for me to DIY.
    	I called in two people to get an estimate on what it would cost
    to build a 36" x 40" shower this way.  The prices were both around
    $1000!  I went to the local plumbing supply store and looked at
    prefab solid shower bases.  They are made of 'fake marble' which is
    acrylic resin and 75% limestone.  They can be ordered in a variety of
    colors and you can get vanity tops of the same material.  Be prepared when
    you want to take it home, mine weighed 100 lbs!  The cost was $250-300
    depending on color.  I had my plumber install the base and this
    weekend I'm putting up wonderboard/cememtboard walls.  I'll tile
    the walls and figure the whole thing will cost $400.
    	The copper pan was too expensive for me.  As for the wonderboard
    issue, I've decided to play it safe and run it all the way to the
    ceiling.  The cost isn't much of an issue and it comes in 3' widths,
    perfect for my 3'x3' shower.  The shower door that I liked is made
    from safety glass and can be ordered in clear or frosted.  The door
    is custom made and measured from the tile to tile measurement after
    everything else is finished.  It runs about $200.  The only premade
    ones come in 30" and 36" lengths and fit the prefab units.
    	If you are interested I'll try to dig up the copper pan shower
    article.  It scared me away from DIY.  Has any here actually build
    one of their own?
    
    				=Ralph=
    

    Mark,
    
    	Keep us posted on the research. We are planning on doing the
    same thing in our Master Bath. (Assuming we live through this house
    building process and take up residence) :-)
    
    							Mark
    

    RE: .1
    
    I am looking for a good plumber to remodle my bathroom.
    Is your plumber good?  What is his name and phone number?
    
    Thanks in advance!

    	I just went thru this using the copper pan route....
    
    	I installed a shower stall and it had to be and odd size, and
    	the prefab'd bases would not fit. So after asking around I
    	found out about this route.
    
    	I contacted a local company that did sheet metal work and
    	ordered a copper pan to the size I needed. (no hole for the
    	drain). Cost (if I remember $50 - $60 range).
                                            
    
    	There is a PVC fitting that is used for the drain that will
    	sandwich the pan after a hole is cut. This fitting is adjustable
    	(the acutal drain piece screws in to attain the proper height).
    	This was purchased from Fitchburg (mass) plumbing. Cost (approx
    	$5 - $10.
    
    	Once in place the pan is in place (I did my framing first and
    	dropped the pan in after). It is filled in with regular cement
    	with a slope towards the drain. Your tile can be put on top
    	of that.
    
    	Where the door is (this is about 1 1/2 - 2 inches higher than
    	the shower floor) I put in a piece of marble that is used as
    	a step.
    
    	The walls were then Dura-a-rocked (this can be done before the
    	cement is poured into the pan.) and tile placed on that.
    
    	All in all it was not bad to do.... Once suppliers and the
    	knowledge was discovered...
    
    	Hope this helps...
    
    			Steve
    	

    RE .3
    	
    	I live 'far away' by most DECcie standard, in Norwood MA by
    the intersection of Rt 1 and 128.  The plumber who I have used on
    a number of occasions is Mark Batcheldor.  He and his brother are
    Batcheldor Plumbing and do good work and charge a fair price for
    the area.  Mark did the plumbing, but I do not think he does remodeling.
    		
    				=Ralph= 
        
    	

  We also put one of these in last year and .4 has a lot of good information.
  We got our copper pan from Baudet Bros. sheet metal in Manchester NH.

  Depending on the size of your design, you may also have to spend some cash
  on a custom shower door.  We used exterior grade plywood for the walls but
  I've also heard good things about dura-rock.

  The hardest part was getting the concrete to set up.  Since there was 
  nowhere for excess water to go, we had to keep sponging water off the
  surface for a couple of hours.  Note that you'll want a very smooth
  concrete surface and a nice, even slope toward the drain, in order
  to make the tiling easier.  (If you are going to tile it yourself, you
  might want to set the tiles so that the drain is centered on the 
  intersection of four tiles and work outward toward the wall.  This may
  involve cutting more tiles near the shower wall but straight cuts like
  that are pretty easy.)  Since we did the job, I've been told that it is
  possible to pour the dry concrete mix into the copper pan and work up
  a stiff mix in place -- but I've never seen that done.

  JP
    	

    The latest 'This Old House' shows Norm using the copper pan method
    to build a shower. 
    
    If it's good enough for a Master Carpenter, who are we to argue.

    
    Way off track comment:
    
    Just a comment on "master carpenter" Norn.. In the same show Norm
    and Bob build a vanity for the bath. Norm the "master carpenter"
    turns on his radial arm saw, without holding the saws handle, with
    his other hand real close to the freely spinning saw blade... I
    was impressed ...
    

    
    
    	I especially liked the nice wrist watch and the long sleeves
    myself.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    Another off the subject :-)
    
    Norm must have been having an all around bad time with that show.
    There was also a shot of him raising the blade on his table saw
    under the work because it was too low.  (I believe he was ripping
    a panel for one of the vanity doors.)
    
    - Mark

    And Bob tripped as he was walking around the table saw to help Norm.
    
    Charly

      How you guys can doubt Bob's credibility is beyond me.  Bob
    mentioned that 'he' and Norm built the vanity in a couple of hours.
    Bob's work goes unseen...have you ever seen him do anything useful
    for Norm?  I missed their INCREDIBLY FAST glue drying method.  I
    still have to wait overnight for the glue to dry.

    :^)
    
    -Jim
    

    
    RE: .12
    
    I think I saw Bob hold the side panel as Norm screwed it to the
    base.  Suuuuurrrrreee they built it in a "couple" of hours.  Sounds
    like the time estimate they gave the current "without-a-home"owner!
    
    Are they *EVER* going to finish that place???
    
    Phil
    

re:.12

As for glue drying overnight, I always waited overnight until one time I saw
some cabinet guy (other than Norm) state that you only needed to wait around 
1 half hour so I tried it.  He was correct - (although I think I waited close
to an hour).  The point being that the stuff really does set that quickly.  I'm
sure I will continue to wait overnight when reasonable, but I won't worry either
if I can only allow an hour or two.  Based on those figures, I COULD see 
building that unit in a couple (probably closer to 3 or 4) hours from start to
finish.

-mark

      Re: .14
    
      Now that I think about it, the situation that I *REALLY* needed
    to wait overnight was when I made matchstick wainscoting.  These
    were 3/8" strips that were beveled and glued up into panels.  A
    couple of hours for this was unacceptable.  Most of the strips would 
    warp in random directions within hours of being cut from 2x6's and 
    2x8's.  The glue joint was only about 1/4" after beveling and getting
    these strips to line up in the clamps proved to be a challenge. A
    couple of times I tried to get away with an hour or two of glue time 
    but there would always be a joint or two that would give out.  Since 
    then, I have automatically waited overnight to remove the clamps.
    Now that I'm working with 3/4" lumber, I'll see if I can get away
    with an hour or so myself.
    
    -Jim  

Another suggestion for a custom shower:

My wife and I, also, didn't like the pre-fab shower stalls available.  We
also were strongly discouraged by our old-timer plumber NOT to use tiles
in a shower stall that will get regular use (at least two showers every
day).  That would just be a maintenance nightmare with regular re-grouting,
etc, required.

So what alternative did we have?  Well, we had seen the Corian (I know,
$$$, but read on) wall kits for above a tub at a plumbing store. 
Unfortunately, there's not "kit" for a 3' x 3' shower stall.  So, my
brother-in-law (our contractor) built one for us.  It was pretty simple
(of course, I wasn't the one building it, either!).  We used a terrazzo 
(heavy, concrete type) base.  The Corian comes in 30" wide sheets, 1/4"
or 3/8" width (I forget) by 8'.  this was glued to the wonderboard on
the walls.  There are minimal seams - one per side (one 30' piece and one
6' piece per side) in addition to the corners.  Then, 1" 'trim' strips
were made from the excess to cover these seams.  Similarly, 45 degree
'trim' pieces were made to cover the corner seams.  In addition, four
little corner shelves were made from the leftover Corian.

I know Corian is expensive, but we decided it was worth the initial investment.
We figured that the minimal maintenance over the years will more than make 
up for the extra initial expense.  We are extremely happy with the outcome.

Bill

    RE: .16
    
    Last time I priced Corian it was mega-bucks for just a small vanity
    top.  Would you care to tell us how much it cost to do an entire
    shower stall?

    Phil

I priced Corian about years ago and it ran $50/foot!

When people do custom showers, do they tend to run them up the ceiling or not?
As I see it, one of the big advantages of doing this is that you can completely
isolate your steam from the rest of the room (assuming you install a vent fan).
One of the negatives is that you definately need light in the shower as well.
I'll have a cathedral ceiling over my shower so I have no problem keeping the
light and electricity away from the water.  I'm just wondering if there tends
to be a convention to good shower design or if it's simply roll-your-own?

Another advantage I see of going up to the ceiling is the rigidity of the whole
structure.

-mark

    re:.17, price of Corian shower stall in .16
    
    I don't have the figures handy (it's been over a year), but if memory
    serves me the cost break down was approximately:
    
    	4 sheets of Corian * $180 per sheet  = $720
                       Terrazzo shower base  = $280
                                Shower door  = $200
                                              -----
    					      $1200
    
    Obvious, since I didn't construct it, I also had labor costs, but
    I think the above materials list is pretty close.  The cost of
    the Corian is what my contractor could get, not what your basic
    DIYer could get.
    
    The fiberglass shower stalls run $500-$700.  I don't remember if
    that included the door.  We thought that was outrageous.  So, we
    decided to splurge a little on something that's going to get a lot
    of use over the years.
    
    This shower stall has Corian, floor to ceiling, on three sides.
    The ceiling is also Corian (no more mildew problems in the ceiling
    sheetrock!).  The shower door makes the fourth side of the stall.
    There is not partial wall above the shower door.  There is a ceiling
    light in shower stall.
    
    Bill-who-just-couldn't-fathom-car-waxing-a-(fiberglass)shower-stall
    

    Can you imagine what that Corian custom-made counter top on This
    Old House last night must have cost?!!
    
    I was real impressed with those kitchen cabinets.
    
    And that picket fence was very handsome, but $1200 for 50' of fencing
    is a bit on the astronomical side, especially considering the life
    expectancy of the fence.
    
    The people who own this house must either be millionaires or have
    a whopping home improvement loan!
    
    Mike
    

    	That was one of the very few TOH shows I've seen that showed
    me something I didn't already know. I'm gald to see CORIAN is starting
    to come in diffrent colors besides white and off white.
    	
    	Also did you see Norms new saw? Great toy. what kind was it?
    Thats always been my big complaint about table saws was supporting
    long boards at an angle was hard with the little T-square.
    
    	Sorry to get off track....
    
    ...Dave
    

    Re: The Fence.
    
    I thought he said $2000, $40 a foot! Either way it's expensive.
    
    Charly

    RE: .22
    
    Yup, it was $2000 because I made the same per foot calculation.
    But its cedar.  They said the posts would last 15 - 20 years and
    the pickets, well forever I guess.  And the tops of the pickets
    were so beautifully curved and that scalloped gate was just devine!!
    It's not a fence, its a work of art!!
    
    RE: cost
    
    I think they are planning on paying for it when they win their lawsuit
    against TOH.  I don't think we'll get to see the usual itemized
    list at the end of this project.  That alone would take 1/2 hour.
    I don't seem to recall any "estimate" given before the job started.
    
    pjg

while we're off the track, ditto on the $$$'s of that job.  the big question is
will they show the total bill as they usually do?  How much you you all think it
will come to?  I figure it has to be at least 150K (and that's probably low!).

I'd love a set of cabinets like those and may actually try to make some myself.
I figure for the cost of a jointer, shaper and planer I could still do it far
cheaper even if it did take me a LONG time to do it.

-mark

The Boston Globe carried a story about the house before the opening of 
the show, and I believe they mentioned that the people have a goodish 
amount of private money. (Otherwise the spotlight team would be down 
there asking how a member of the Boston Housing Authority came up with 
the money for all this.)  I believe they also mentioned that the way it 
works is that the people pay for labor, and the show picks up the cost 
of materials. (That way, Bob and Norm get to specify what gets used/who 
gets the advertising.)

Has anyone else noticed that the people who own the place don't appear 
on camera much anymore?  They cut down on the exposure after the guy 
told Bob "I wanted a simple renovation, not a gut job!" and now I don't 
think I've seen him around at all.  He's probably spending all his time 
at his lawyer's office.

If you remember the first old house (maybe the seoncd) of "This Old
House" stayed on the market for years because nobody would pay the
amount of money that they needed to get for it. 

					>>>==>PStJTT

    re .24
    
    $150 k ????
    
    With the new driveway, trees, the complete rebuilding of the 'L',
    The gutting inside, New beam under the bath, new corner of the house,
    etc.
    
    Wasn't there a new COPPER flashed low pitched roof over the front??
    
    A while back I was guessing at around $500 K.
    
    I'm now doubling that figure.

    the original purchase price was "$250,000". The man also said
    he "manages rental housing in Boston". Does somebody know that he
    works for the city of Boston?

    About a month ago, there was a very long article about this project
    in the "Boston Herald".  The owner of the house walked out on the
    project about half way through.  He said that he wasn't allowed
    to make any decisions on how things were done, and everything had
    to be made to TOH's specifications.  (for example, they wanted a
    simple 'country kitchen' and got a rather lavish kitchen instead)
    
    
    They said in the Herald that the initial budget was for $100K, but
    when all was said and done, the total cost was more like $160K.
    
    
    The really interesting thing about this is that NO contracts are
    signed, and everything is agreed upon verbally.  The homeowners
    have been consicuously abscent from the show for the past few weeks,
    and will NOT reappear.  (they walked out, and refused to appear
    on the show.  Even the last few times they were on, you could feel
    the hostility between Vila and the homeowners)
    
    
    I cut the article out and gave it to someone  I work with.  He said
    that he still has it.   If anyone would like a copy, send me mail
    and I'll try to send it out to you.
    
    
    -bill

    From the article in the Herald the following items were donated
    to the project:
    
    	Painting the House $60,000 donated by the contractor.
    
    	The Bidet and Whirlpool were donated $????
    
    	Speakers throughout the house $2,500
    
    	The article said "The bottom line is he put $400,000 into the
    house and it's worth $700,000. He got $200,000 of material donated.
    I bet he sells within a year.
    
    
    I have a copy of the article if anybody wants its send me your mailstop
    I'll send you a copy.
    
    -Don
    

    Now that you reminded me....
    
    
    I still can't imagine a $60K paint job!   After all, both my neighbors
    and I had our houses painted last summer.  None of them was over
    $5K, and I think the house next door is bigger than the house on
    TOH.  
    
    I wonder if the paintjob included all of the carpentry work on the
    outside of the existing house?
    
    
    -bill

Wow.  This is getting better and better.  I believe the Globe said the 
guy worked for the Boston Housing Authority, but I threw the article out 
long ago, and I may be wrong.

For the $60K painjob, remember that the outfit *stripped* the ENTIRE
house, disposed of the residue from the strip operation, then custom
mixed the primer and the paint.  It was an expensive job for sure.  

I wonder how the IRS views these "donations"?  Is the guy liable for 
taxes on this $200,000 worth of extra income this year?

It may be getting time for 60 Minutes to have a look at "This Old House" 
because they are becoming more and more a half-hour advertising 
campaign, and if they are now ignoring the owner's wishes so they can 
showcase materials, then it's becoming a real travesty of it's original 
purpose.
						>>>==>PStJTT

    I think the reason the paint job was so expensive was because they
    stripped the ENTIRE house chemically BY HAND before they painted
    it!
    
    					Kenny

	Does anybody know when the article appeared in the newspaper?
    Was it front page?
    
    I wish somebody would give my house a free $60,000 paint job and
    an extravagant kitchen!  Life's a bitch, huh?
    
    Phil

    
    Re: .31
    
    >I wonder how the IRS views these "donations"?  Is the guy liable for
    >taxes on this $200,000 worth of extra income this year?
    
    	My guess would be yes, he's going to get nailed (:-) by the
    IRS over these improvements.  Since the show is using his house
    as, essentially, a television show prop, the IRS would probably
    rule that any improvements made above and beyond what the homeowner
    paid for is prop rental.  He has rented his house to the TV show
    where his rental fee is the improvements.
    
    	This might clinch the argument of whether or not the owner will
    sell the home quickly.  He might not be able to afford the tax bill
    without the profit from the home!
    
    							-craig
    

    To continue the digression, a friend of a friend is the producer
    of TOH. Some of the interesting tid-bits are:
    
    1) The project is $100k over budget.
    2) All materials are donated by the manufacturer.
    	(and it's STILL $100k over budget!)
    3) The owners are not talking with Villa anymore (though it's a
    fair guess that they're talking to their lawyer).
    	The owners, allegedly, reneged on the amount of DIY they were
    	going to do and hired other folk on the work, on their own. 
    	(Interesting to hear another side)
    4) Bob drives to the house in his Merc., then gets in the truck
       to film the opening scene. 
    
    Alan

    RE: .36
    
    
>    3) The owners are not talking with Villa anymore (though it's a
>    fair guess that they're talking to their lawyer).
>    	The owners, allegedly, reneged on the amount of DIY they were
>    	going to do and hired other folk on the work, on their own. 
>    	(Interesting to hear another side)


    	After seeing the owners in the early episodes, they didn't quite
    strike me as the DIY types.  And I vividly remember the guy telling
    ol' Bob he didn't want to gut the place.  I can see where they might
    renege on their commitment since going along with the gut job would
    have given the appearance of them approving it.
    
    	Hell, I'll still volunteer my house to them, anytime!  Those
    owners may be upset and the cost and time overruns, but they most
    certainly being well compensated for it with a spectacular house.
    Just can't please some people.
    
    Phil

< Note 1903.35 by BEING::WEISS "Trade freedom for security-lose both" >
                -< 'Fireplace Dry' ran away with it in January >-

This note gets my vote for digression-of-the-month.

Paul


    
    		Please stop digressing from the digression. ;-)
    
   

    Phil

    This note has digressed a bit.  May I make a suggestion that we
    start a note on TOH.  Maybe even round up some of the scattered
    notes concerning TOH and put them into one note?
    Mr. Moderator?
    

    I think we should start a petition to remove Bob as host. Then Norm
    could take over and they could do a show on repairing resonable
    home improvements. $2000. fences and $60k paint jobs are a little
    out of my reach. They could call it 'Norm Abrams, Master Carpenter',
    or "Fix it with Norm'. Then Bob could spin off to a new show,
    'This Old Jerk'.
    
    Tim
    

    
    
    	SIGN ME UP !!

    	where is the "This Old House" note anway ? I've seen it here
    before.
    	One quick comment. On Sundays 11:30am Following TOH there is
    a new DIY show on New Hampshire PBS CH 11. It's a little skimppy
    on detail but gives you the basics. They did a whole deck this past
    in just 1/2 hour.
    
    			...Dave
    

      Re: .42
    
      The show you are referring to is 'Hometime'.  I don't believe
    that the series is new but that they have thirteen new episodes.
    Yesterday's was the second this year. The first was furniture
    refinishing. For a half-hour show, I think they did a pretty good job.  
    After the credits, they said that they have a videotape on decks for 
    $9.95 if you want to see more detail of what's involved. These may be 
    the Chevy sponsored videotapes but I don't know for sure. 

    -Jim

    They may not have wanted a "total gut" job BUT one of the realities of
    doing this type of renovation work is sometimes (manytimes) you end up
    doing more than you planned. After you find out that the whole corner
    of the house is rotting or that a serious structural problem exists,
    what are you going do? Cover it up and pretend it isn't there? GET
    REAL, welcome to the real world folks. The gutted portions of the house
    appear to be limited to these problem areas and the new kitchen wing. 

    If HomerOwner was so concerned about the costs, he could have postponed
    some of that landscaping work (moving the driveway, building garden
    area, cobblestone walkways, reconditioned wellcover...) . I can't
    believe they did all that against his will. 

    Charly

The homeowner is a jerk if he is angry because he didn't want a gut 
job. Was he really surprised to find hidden problems when they started 
peeling back walls, etc.? He and the Mrs. would have ended up with their 
water bed in the country kitchen the first night they slept in their 
new minimalist project if TOH hadn't done a "gut job." 

If I remember correctly (very big if), it was the homeowners who said 
something like "we'd like to take this dirt floor shed that is 
collapsing around our ears and put the kitchen out here..." to begin 
with.

John H.

    I think it's Channel 5 that has a segment of their 6 o'clock news
    entitled THIS OLD SHACK.  It's a real tongue in cheek of Bob and
    Norm.  I caught it once at a friends and had a good chuckle.
    
    Elaine

Re: .35

That's not fair.  "Fireplace Dry" stayed much closer to the topic than 
this note has. :->

    TOH's gut job was a necessity. I saw some of the first shows on
    that dump and it was a major miracle that the damn thing was
    salvagable. A few of the problems were:
    
    1) corner post rotted through.
    2) main carrying beam cut through for pipes.
    3) different carrying beam had support post removed from middle
        (needed a wider doorway)
    
    The show has drawn the most negative audience responce ever. Mostly
    due to the "Who the hell can afford that ($%^%&*(*" kind of response.
    It has turned into a disaster for the series since it was not supposed
    to take the entire season to do, but will.
    
    Re: Norm & Co.
    
    The producer of TOH asked Norm's partner for an estimate on a 
    kitchen remodeling and was told that his $20k budget was not
    big enough, that "nobody" can remodel a kitchen for that little.
    These people were looking for the kind of remodeling that any
    DIYer in this file could have handled easily, I saw the plan and
    have other friends who have seen the place.  TOH has definitly
    gone to Norm's head.
    
    Alan

    
>    Yup, it was $2000 because I made the same per foot calculation.
>    But its cedar.  They said the posts would last 15 - 20 years and
>    the pickets, well forever I guess.  And the tops of the pickets
>    were so beautifully curved and that scalloped gate was just devine!!
>    It's not a fence, its a work of art!!
    
Yeh, that sounds right. I gota price estimate from Walpole Fence last year, 
24' of fence, solid, scallopped top, nothing fancy on the posts, installed, 
for a mear $1400 and change.....The kid quoting the price didn't even 
flinch when he reeled of the numbers to me. Sorta like, if you gotta ask, 
I'll stick it to ya.....

He said something about 20 years life, I then put one in for $10.00 a foot,
all pressure treated, same "work of art", and I don;t even have to have a 
little brass advertising plaque for walpole woodworkers on it! Took about 3 
days, digging the post holes was the hardest part, and it was *REAL* 
satisfying to save the bucks. Will also look forward to 20 years from now 
to see what shape itwill be in. Better than their crummy cedar, I bet.

    8^) (smiling all theway to the bank)

    
    My new shower system was installed about 6 months ago. It is one
    of those that have 3 different controls for 'HOT', 'COLD' and
    shower/faucet selection. When the job was done, I observed a
    reduced pressure coming from the shower, but good enough to get
    a nice shower. About 2 months later, the shower/faucet control
    was not working properly. The washer was damaged. A new one was
    replaced but again damaged in a short time.
    
    Can anyone tell me what could be the problem, and what is the easiest
    way to fix the problem ?
    
    Thanks
    Tat
    
    ps I do not remember seeing and constriction or dent in the cold
    or hot water pipes. 

    
    Don't get me wrong Charly!  I have no sympathy what so ever for
    this homeowner.  I seem to recall the first episode when Bob and
    the guy were walking through the place.  The guy said "He had to
    act fast to get this place!  No time for a home inspection."  HA!!
    If my memory is correct, then this guy deserves all the pain and
    trouble he's getting now, but he's also getting a hell of a house
    in the process!
    
    Lessons learned:
    
    	1) There's ALWAYS enough time for a home inspection.
    
	2) For every problem you see, there are two that you can't.
    
        3) TOH estimates are no better than anyone elses.  Double them!
    
    
    Phil

I agree with the people who think the homeowner is a jerk.  I can't believe they
made him:

	o	build a custom well head
	o	put in a new driveway
	o	have a moving van full of shrubs installed
	o	patio
	o	hand planed kitchen cabinets
	o	etc...

If things were really getting out of hand why didn't he just call his lawyer and
shout STOP!!!

I'm also interested in an earlier comment about a 60 minutes episode.  Anybody 
know how to contact them?  I'd be a willin' to make a phone call. Even though I
stated the homeowner's a jerk, that doesn't left the Norm and Bob show off the
hook either.  I wonder how Norm would answer the question - "Norm.  What the
hell is a Master Carpenter?" 

re: HOMETIME

There's some earlier notes in here about it.  I guess the woman who was on it 
last year was replaced...

-mark

    Re: Don't get me wrong Charly!  I have no sympathy what so ever for
        this homeowner. 

    Hey Phil, Don't get ME WRONG! What makes you think that I have any
    sympathy for Homer Owner either? Go back and re-read my note and you'll
    see. The "total gut" job is limited to the strucural problem areas of
    the house, no way around that. 
    
    I seem to remember Homer Owner wanting to revitalize a wood stove or
    fireplace in the old kitchen, Bob was right there with some good
    comments about reasons that he might not want to do it and some of the
    hidden co$t$ that would be involved. Homer decided to do it anyways.
    
    As for TOH, I consider it an IDEA show, NOT a How To Do it show
    and taken in that light I like the show and find it enjoyable. And
    Bob and Norm ain't that bad. As someone way back once commented,
    "would you rather have Wiliam F Buckley narrate it?" Bob only asks
    those "dumb" questions to draw the info out of Norm and the other
    sub contractors. 
    
    Well, That's about all the time I have right now... Next week,...... 

    Charly

I guess I'm alone in feeling bad for the poor chump, huh?  I understand 
that the structural problems that were turned up had to be fixed, and in 
an old house you have to expect those things to happen. (Let me tell you 
about my kitchen renovation...)  

But on the other hand, if they were planning on a fairly simple job and got
$200K worth of "donations" that will be considered regular income by the
IRS, I feel bad for them. That's $70,000 in taxes.  If they weren't 
prepared for that, and they have to sell their dream house because of 
it, then I feel bad for them.  

Also, remember, if you're doing your own house, you can wheedle and deal 
and put things off when other things pop to the top of the priority 
stack.  I don't know how much desicion he's allowed or how much Bob and 
Norm consult with him on the alternatives.  Can he just say, "Gee, Bob, 
fixing the house cost so much, we're going to put off finishing the 
kitchen for a year or so."?

What I do know is that no matter what, I feel a little sorry for the guy
-- just as I'd feel sorry for someone who got dragged through a chipper
even though it was his own fault for wearing his cuffs unbuttoned. 

As for This Old House, yeah it's an idea show.  For example, I had no 
idea that people would pay $2,000 to line a chimney.  I had no idea that 
someone would rebuild 19th century windows so they could keep the single 
pane, wavy glass rather than go with double pane Low-E. (You can bet 
your boots that the people in the 19th century wouldn't have thought 
twice about having draftless windows they could see out of.)  The REAL 
question in my mind, is will they ever revisit these places and see if 
the underfloor heating system they ran the half-hour advert for is still 
working?  Will they tell us, "Gee, that clever heating system controller 
we installed two years ago went haywire and now the whole system has to 
be replaced because they don't make them anymore -- That's too bad."

					>>>==>PStJTT

    I guess it comes down to that different people want different formats
    for the show. I would like to see less contracters and more owner
    projects. I would have like to seen about five episodes dedicated
    to how to make those kitchen cabinets. They could have had Roy
    Underhill make a guest appearance with Norm. (BTW, Roy is the host
    of the Woodrights Shop on PBS. He did too many drugs in the 70's
    and now he is convinced that it is 1776 and electricity hasn't been
    discovered.) Norm could have also easily made that section of fence.
    I think the majority of viewers are of the handyman variety and
    do not have the money to do the projects as they are doing them.
    We bought an old house that needed work because that's all we could
    afford. As for Homer, the homeowner, I think he learned what every
    one learns who has an older house. There is always something that
    needs to be fixed and something about to break.
    
    Tim, Master Software Engineer
    

    Re: Cost
    Is it possible that the owner could place the house in a national
    registry of landmarks, being that the house is so old?  Would he
    reap any tax benifits?  Would he qualify for money from a state
    or federal agency for maintaining a historic landmark?  Just some
    questions that I had when I saw him buring up the bucks.

    Tim, I agree with your comment also about using less specialized
    contractors and showing us how to do things, that fence is a good
    example. Don't think that I am in love with the current project either,
    I'm not, they should have wrapped it up weeks ago and moved onto the
    next one. I prefer the "smaller scale" home renovation projects. 
    
    All-in-all, I like the shows mix of projects, small to large, visits to
    manufacturing shops, renovation yards, different parts of the country,
    etc... It's a nice, light 1/2 show that you can watch with out getting
    wrapped up in the fine details of what's going on. Maybe PBS should
    spin off a series where Norm or someone concentrates on A specific
    topic start to finish. 

    Charly

    P.S. Something about Roy Underhill, rubs me the wrong way. I can't
    stand the guy. But, that's just my opinion and nobody asked!

    re: Whoa, we can't afford it.
    
    I remember an earlier TOH where the owners were presented with this
    beautiful landscaping plan (with price to match) and then worked
    with the designer to figure out which piece to plant each year.
    
    Since TOH is the #3 show on PBS nation wide, manufacturers are 
    beating down the doors to get their products used. It's probably
    real tough to turn down all those high tech, high price goodies.
    
    Alan

    
    Sorry to get off the subject guys but...
    
    How'd you make out with the shower Mark?
    

Anybody want to take a crack at a bathtub actually big enough to take a bath in?

Jim.

    	I watched T.O.H last night and there about to wrap up the
    project. Next week is the final episode. Stay tuned and find 
    out if,
    	< Bob Villa gets shot by irate owner after being given the bill$$$>
    	< Norm finaly snaps and runs Bob thru a Planer. >
    	< Bob is now the proud owner of This Old Estate >
    

    The "truth will out". I have heard, as in my formerly posted gossip,
    second hand from TOH's producer that the owners are really building
    a place for a Bed and Breakfast type establishment. Hence, some
    of the features (large play room, 'nursery' wallpaper). This alleged
    plan was not known up front or the deal would never have been done.
    
    I will try to determine if the number of shows has been reduced,
    as I heard, previously, that the entire season was going to be
    taken up by this house. 
    
    Alan

    If you replace the washer, you should be able to replace the stem - at
least I think that's what it's called.  (Did you get a licensed plumber to
inspect your new washer installation?  :-)

    IS this the same one that has all the goodies in the front? ie brick
    walks shrubs to cut down on noise, picket fence, funnt well hood
    etc, etc.  If so that would make a wonderful bed and breakfast house.
    Out in the boondocks and all.  What are they gonna do with the old
    barn I saw in the back?  IS it theirs?  I work third so its kinda
    hard to remember when to watch seeings my schedule is all wacked
    up. I never remember to tape it either, but the way some of you
    talk about toh I wonder if its worth taping.  I love the way all 
    you This Old Housers tell it.  Keep it up.
                                                             @L

    Re: "the boondocks"
    
    Where are you from? Mars? :-) You people with your anything outside
    Rt. 128 is the boondocks attitude AMAZE me. True, the Weatherbee
    house is in Westwood and it's true that Westwood is outside of Rt.
    128 (JUST OUSIDE) but the "boondocks"?!?
    
    Charly (from the boonies outside of Rt. 495!)
    
    P.S. I can't wait 'till the stage coach brings in the next TOH tape.
    
    P.S.S. I've been to Podunk too! I have some friends that live out
    there.

    A bed and breakfast. Don't tell me, they're going to have different
    rooms dedicated to different people on TOH. Like the Norm Abrams
    room. It has tools hanging on the wall and comes with a pile of
    scrap lumber and nails. Of course there is a frig full of Bud to
    help you develop the Master Carpenter roll. Then there will be the
    Vila suite. This is a room that Bob did himself without any help
    from Norm. Watch out for that closet door!! Ouch !! I guess those
    brads weren't strong enough to hold that on. Don't touch that light
    switch !!! Zap !!!! Oh well, he had one wire on right. Then last
    but not least is the Contracters room. Everything is 14k gold plated
    and it is wallpapered in $20 bills. Of course for those of you on
    a budget there is the wellhead room. For a hundred a night you get
    running water and a view of the stars.
    
    Tim
    

    TOH wrapped it up last night - final bill $200k. The homeowners
    never re-appeared. The house was gone over by "the decorators" for
    a pictorial in some magazine.

    Geeesh!  All I ment by boondocks was a nicely wooded area.  God,
    some people.......AW forget it.

I was one of the many who liked the job Gel Gloss did, but was dismayed at the 
amount of elbow grease necessary to use it.

Then last night I stuck a $5 buffing wheel in my electric drill...

Paul

    I use leftover car wax (Rain Dance, since that is what my husband
    uses for his car) for this job - sure is easy, anyhow.  The installer
    of the shower enclosure said to use car wax, so I haven't bothered
    trying anything more exotic.

    All right Homeworkians, if you can't help me I'm calling a plumber.
    
    I'm installing a Delta scald guard bath valve that's a pressure
    balance model in a bath/shower.  After I installed it and turned
    on the water the hot ran ok but the cold just dribbled out.  I've
    localized the problem to the balance spool assembly.  I did this
    by removing the assembly and turning on the water.  Once the balance
    spool was removed there was plenty of pressure.  I replaced the assembly
    and the water just dribbled out again.  The assembly is a sleeve
    with a spool inside of it.  Both the sleeve and spool have holes
    for the water to  pass through.  When I took the assembly out the
    first time the spool, which is supposed to slide and turn freely
    seemed to be stuck.  I loosened it and replaced it but still there
    was no water flow.  Anyone familiar with this type of valve?  Is
    there anything I should try?  Do I just have a defective bath valve?

    Thanks,
    
    George

    	This may sound really dumb but, do you have both the cold
    and hot water supplys connected and running at the same time?
    
    	I installed two of the exact same things in my bathrooms.
    When I connected the pipes, I decided to check it out, but I
    didn't yet have my hot water heater, hence, no hot water or
    pressure from the other feed to the unit.  When I turned on 
    the cold water it ran fine.  I shut it off and then called
    my wife over to show her what a fine job I did.  Turned on
    the faucet again, but nothing came out.  Just a dribble.  After
    a few choice words, I spent about an hour rechecking all my
    connections, but everything looked all right.  Turned the
    valve on again and presto, water.  Turn it off, turn it on,
    *no* water!??!!?!?!?   To make a long story short, that valve
    needs pressure from both sides to operate correctly.  Boy did
    I feel D.U.M.B.!  And to think I was going to call the company
    and give them hell for giving me crappy valvesf!  Whooops.
    
    	Hope this sheds some light on the problem.
    

    In trying to find the problem I have the valve pulled apart and
    was concentrating on the cold only so that was the only thing that
    was turned on.  However, I believe that when I found the problem
    both hot and cold were turned on.  Of course, now that I think of
    it, the time both taps were on was the time that the valve was stuck.
    After I repaired and replaced it I think I only turned on the cold.
    Only the cold was turned on because the valve was apart and to turn
    on both hot and cold would have made a fairly impressive shower
    but not necessarily in the tub.  I'll go home tonight and hook
    everything back up and see what happens.  I hope this is it.
    
    Thanks,
    
    George
    

    It worked!  I put everything togther last night, turned the water
    on and it ran fine.  Thanks for the help.  Now to finish putting
    up the drywall and start muding and taping.

    I looked at note 1111.67 and this looked like the best place to
    put this question.  
    
    I have a Delta (Delex) single knob scald guard shower faucet which
    causes the water to hammer when set in some midpoint position between
    hot and cold.  I've tried to replace the rubber washers and springs
    (and put the old springs back) with no success.  One person suggested
    that it is caused by low water pressure.
    
    Anyone know the answer?

Somewhere in a catalog (can't find it) I saw an anti-scald shower 
HEAD.  I.E., if you have an older house, with Hot and COld shower 
knobs, you replace your shower HEAD with this one and prevent scalding 
when the toilet flushes, etc.  Sounds much cheaper than retrofiting 
the anti-scald valve.   Any experiences or pointers for sources with 
this would be appreciated.
thanx

    	Is this the one marketed by a company called Memory Metals?
    They use a nickel/titanium alloy (Nitinol) that changes shape
    with a change in temperature.  I've got some Nitinol springs in
    my desk and they really are fun to play with (if you're into material
    science)
    	Memory Metals have been developing an anti scald system based
    on Nitinol for a couple of years.  The company has also been accused
    of stock manipulation and the like.  

    				=Ralph=

    When we remodeled our bathroom and installed a Moen shower control,
    same principle as Delta,  we had a immediate water hammer problem.
    The contractor added small ball shaped devices to the shower water
    lines.  I assume they are air filled.  They took care of the problem
    completely.
    
    If you need details contact me throught MERIDN::PASCUCCI and I
    will read the name and model numbers on the devices.
    
    Frank
     

    The same effect can be achieved by just attaching short capped sections
    of pipe to the supply lines.  These sections fill with air, which tends
    to expand and contract to absorb the forces that generate water hammer.
    Just make the capped sections about 6-9" long, so they trap enough air
    (shedded, of course!) to work properly.
    
    Old piping:                        New piping:
    
          wall ---v                          wall ---v
                  |                                _ |
                  |                         cap-> '"`|
                 == <-shower control               " |
       elbow-> /  |                          tee-> +== <-shower control
               "  |                                " |
               "  |                                " |
      supply-> "  |                       supply-> " |

    Thanks for the replies.  I have to see if I can get in there now
    and add anything.  There isn't any access from the back and the
    shower control is put in a one piece fiberglass shower stall with
    very little room to get in and work around the valve.
    
    Peter

I found it - in the SYNC catalog - its called the "Shower Gard
anti-scald safety valve" for $19.95. 

"...With MemrySafe's (tm) new technology shone as Shape Memory Effect,
special actuators within the head are automatically triggered by
temperatures that are too high, and instantly reduce water flow to a
safe trickle." 

Also available built in to "massage" shower head for $39.95.

On one hand, I could really use it if it works... (want to make someone 
scream in our house?  flush the toilet when they're in the shower).

On the other hand - if they work, why aren't these more popular and 
common?  I would expect to be able to get one at my local plumbing 
supply house, probably for les, no?  (Or do the plumbers keep these 
rare because they want to convert your shower faucets - a more 
lucrative job..?)

    They aren't more popular, I imagine, because most people install
    pressure-balancing shower faucets, such as the one from Symmons,
    which removes most of the reason for a separate valve.  If you didn't
    have a pressure-balancing faucet, I could see the benefit in a special
    showerhead.
    
    				Steve

>    They aren't more popular, I imagine, because most people install
>    pressure-balancing shower faucets, such as the one from Symmons,
>    which removes most of the reason for a separate valve.  If you didn't
>    have a pressure-balancing faucet, I could see the benefit in a special
>    showerhead.
>    
Granted, but many of us have houses built before these were invented 
(around 1962), they way I understand it, retrofits are non-trivial 
projects...

    
     My moms house in Nashua, a rather large split entry about 12 years
    old has had a strange/frustrating problem occur this summer.
    
     Twice her downstairs has flooded.  It seems that after/during a
    large downpour (rain), the downstairs shower drain spews water up
    into the air about 6-9".  
    
     The city water folks have come into the area to check things out
    and have found "no problems".  Her next door neighbors who own a
    good size cape have had about the same problem... ie; when moms
    has flooded, theirs has as well.
    
     She has since then resorted to "stuffing" something into the shower
    drain during a downpour and that seems to at least not allow any
    flooding.  But this is only a temporary fix I guess.  
    
     Would anyone know of what could be causing this and how I could
    get around to repairing it... or is it something that should be
    left to a professional plumber?  In the meantime she will just keep
    sticking something in that drain before the rainstorms.         
    
     Any advice greatly appreciated.
    
     This has never happened in the past.
    
                                            Perry F.
                                           ----------
    
    P.S. The water that spews out is muddy or at least pretty dirty.

    Sound like there has been some additional development in the area
    and now the storm system that the drain is hooked up to backs up
    into the house.  I would have expected a tub drain to go to the
    sewer system which should never back up.  It wouldn't be muddy anyway.
    
    The only cure I can think of is to get at the piping and install
    a check valve.  This allows water to drain out but 'checks' the
    flow back towards the house.  This may not be an easy be retrofit.

    This is a fairly uneducated guess -- only because I had a similar
    problem.  It could be that something, most likely tree roots, is
    blocking the pipe somewhere, and that rainwater is entering through
    a crack or opening someplace between the blockage and the house.
    The muddiness or dirtiness of the water certainly suggests this
    cause. Are there lots of trees around the house?
    
    It might be a job for Roto-Rooter or a similar service.  I called
    R-R, and they fixed the problem (which, in my case, was a basement
    sink backing up when the washing machine drained into it.)  As I
    say, this is just a guess based on one experience, but it's probably
    worth investigating.  Good luck.

    						Steve

We have a fiberglas 4X8' shower base that the former owners
literally scrubbed off the gel coat in places. Is there a paint
or "re-gelling" material that can resurface this base? The base
is white with ribbing that directs water towards the drain. It is
at the edges of the ribbing where the gel coat has been scrubbed
through.

cal hoe

    
    >Granted, but many of us have houses built before these were invented 
    >around 1962), they way I understand it, retrofits are non-trivial 
    >projects...
    
    VERY true!  And I've seen *many* houses built after 1962 that don't
    have them.  It has been code for a while in Mass, but it still isn't
    required in some state.

    So what's the point?  I was merely trying to explain why the special
    shower heads were not as popular as one might expect, without
    accounting for the large number (but hardly universal) of balancing
    faucets.
    
    I agree - working on bath/shower plumbing is a pain almost anywhere,
    as the valves and pipes are usually in an inaccessible location.
    In my old house, when I added a bathroom, I installed a removeable
    panel behind the shower for maintenance access.  I may do the same
    if I can in my current house when I finish its second bath.
    
    				Steve

>    So what's the point?  I was merely trying to explain why the special
>    shower heads were not as popular as one might expect, without
>    accounting for the large number (but hardly universal) of balancing
>    faucets.


I guess I disagree, given how many houses were built without the 
balancing faucet, I would expect the anti-scald valve, if it really 
worked, to be available more places than one remote catalog.

    Cal, I bought some Gel coat brand fiberglass polish at perlmutters
    a few years ago that does a good job of restoring the shine it is
    temporary tho. IF anyone here in the springs carries a permanant
    fix they would give 'em a call.
    
    -j

>               ...I would expect the anti-scald valve, if it really 
>  worked, to be available more places than one remote catalog.

Maybe it's a new product?  I saw an ad for it (in a different catalog) a 
couple of days before this topic showed up.  I had never seen anything 
about them before.

If it came down to a choice between the mixing valve and the shower 
head, I'd go for the mixing valve.  From what it says, it sounds like 
the shower head shuts off when the water gets too hot.  The mixing valve 
keeps the water coming, but changes the mix of hot and cold to keep you 
from getting scalded.  I don't like the idea of standing around with a 
headful of lather waiting for the water temp to go down.  This is 
certainly going to affect its popularity.
						>>>==>PStJTT

    The anti-scald shower head's manufacturer tells you how quickly
    it shuts the excessively hot fow down to a trickle, but what about
    turning it back on????
                                              
    It responds to water that gets too hot by closing down -- but,
    once it closes down, you have a non-negligible pipeline of too-hot
    water, flowing at trickle rate through the shower head, even *after*
    the mix at the faucet returns to normal.
    
    This designed-in slow recovery would extend the amount of time you're
    standing there, getting cold (not a problem in August, but....)
    with s headful of shampoo trickling into your eyes.
    
    dq
    
    
        

    So where can I get one of these things? Can someone send me the
    name and address (maybe phone number too?) of the catalogs were
    these things can be ordered?
    
    The water in the shower is highly succeptable to sudden temperature
    swings when someone accidentally flushes the toilet, starts up the
    laundry, etc. This usually isn't a problem, but sometimes people
    make mistakes, forget that someone is taking a shower, etc.
    
    I can live with soap running into my eyes if the alternative is
    being scalded. I'm sure that most people if asked would give the
    same answer.
    
    	Marty Sasaki

    Their was a newspaper article in the Nashua Telegraph a few years
    back about some house near exit 4 where the sewage backed into
    the basement bathroom. They claimed in some sections of Nashua the
    storm and sewer drains are the same pipe. But in your case, I agree
    it could be tree roots blocking the pipe.

As noted earlier in this note, its in the SYNC catalog.  However, 
after reading the comments from this file and talking to a few 
plumbing supply people, I've come to the conclusion these are on par 
with those little $5 airconditioners you sometimes see...
de

    
    Since I live in Nashua also, do you mind stating whereabouts this
    is occurring ??
    
    tks.

     RE: -1
    
     The area is within a quarter mile from the 7E off ramp, near the
    Jeans Market/Saab dealer.
    
     RE: all
    
     Thanks for the info. very informative and appreciated.  She plans
    on having someone (Roto?) take a look at it before winter sets in.
    
                              Thanks again,
    
                                        Perry F.
                                       ----------
    
    P.S. Will post outcome here, just for further references for others.
    
    
    

    Jeff,
    	I've seen the memory metal shower heads work at a trade show.
    The one I saw would shut down the shower head if the water got too
    hot, then turn back on after the water had cooled down.  They are
    designed to prevent scalding, rather than maintain temperature like
    the pressure balancing valves.
    	I don't think the product is a fraud, although the company has
    been investigated.  I think the reason the product hasn't sold well
    is because it is very limited in what it can do.  Twenty dollars
    isn't much to possibly prevent scalding, but what do I bought a
    pair of X-ray glasses as a kid :^)
    
    				=Ralph=

RE: < Note 2455.12 by PALMER::PALMER "half a bubble off plumb" >
                   -< The valve is limited in what it does >-

Thanks Ralph (as usual)

The fact that the valve doesn't adjust is significant.  A flushed
toilet kills the cold pressure for close to a minute (too long to 
spend in a dry shower), however, there is always the coice of 
readjusting the temperature by hand, which begs the question...

Did the valve turn back on quickly after temperature was restored?

thanx/j

    Jeff,
    	The demo I saw was at a trade show, so it could have been rigged.
    The valve turned back on in about 15 seconds.  Could you please
    post information on where to buy one of these valves.  For $20 
    I'd like to buy one and see how it works.
    
    					=Ralph=

SYNC: 800 722 9979  Summer 1988 Catalog


Shower-Gard Valve:  #D733360  $19.95
Shower Safe Massage Shower-head #D733725  $39.95

Please let us know how it turns out	/j



PS - strangely enough, I received a new catalog from them last week 
(the one mentioned above is about 6 weeks old).  This item was not in 
the newer catalog.

    This is a definite late reply, but since I'm new to this note I
    thought I'd add my experience for any future needs.  We have a cast
    iron claw foot tub, and wanted a shower attachment.  We purchased
    a unit from Sears which had a faucet, spout with diverter, and a
    chrome pipe leading up to about 6 feet with a shower head attached.
    No walls to pull down, just replace the old faucet set up with the
    new and we were in business!  I didn't get the oval tube for the
    curtain, because they tend to cut down the amount of space you have
    to move around, so I used two shower curtain rods on either side
    of the tub, and taped two shower curtains together behind the chrome 
    pipe to prevent water from splashing all over the wall.
    It worked like a charm!
    
    Sarah
    
        

    We have a few tiny cracks (1/8 of an inch) in our fiberglass shower
    stall, and I was wondering how to repair them.  I've talked to a
    few hardware stores and plumbing supply stores, and they have two
    ways to go:
    
    	Use a fiberglass resin kit for the patch (fairly inexpensive)
    
    	Use a GEL COAT kit for $18.75 which includes filler and the
    GEL COAT.
    
    Has anyone else tried either of these two methods to fix small chips?
    
    
    michael g. moy
    

My 30 year old house had some water in the bathroom resulting in a
rotted sub-floor. (The leak has been fixed). The rotted wood extends
under the tub as shown below. The sub floor is constructed of 1X6
(1X8?) inch planks.... (pardon the VT100 graphics). 
                      

                       |
                       |
        Tub           /
                     /        X= Rot
  ==================/        
  -------------XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX--------------------  < Plank
  -------------XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX--------------------  < Sub-floor
   -------                                     -------
   |     |                                     |     |
   |     | <--------- 2X6 Joist -------------> |     |
   |     |                                     |     |
   |     |                                     |     |
   -------                                     -------

(Tile and underlayment not shown)

I'm sure the readers can appreciate how much I'd prefer NOT to remove
the tub in order to replace the rotted wood.

My idea to fix it is as such...Remove, from below (easily accessable)
the rotted plank between the floor joists.

                       |
                       |
        Tub           /
                     / 
  ==================/        
  -------|                                     | ----------  < Plank
  -------|                                     | ----------  < Sub-floor
   -------                                     -------
   |     |                                     |     |
   |     | <--------- 2X6 Joist -------------> |     |
   |     |                                     |     |
   |     |                                     |     |
   -------                                     -------

Then replace the cut-out section and support it with 2 more joists running
parallel (sp?) to, and attached to, the originals. The joists would span 
approximately 6 feet from the sill to the center beam (what's that called?).

                       |
                       |
        Tub           /
                     /        N= new section
  ==================/        
  -------|NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN|----------  < Plank
  -------|NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN|----------  < Sub-floor
   ------- -------                      ------- -------
   |     | |     |                      |     | |     |
   |     | |     |                      |     | |     |                
   |     | |     |                      |     | |     |
   |     | |     |                      |     | |     |
   ------- -------                      ------- -------
   
I see 2 advantages to this. It could all be done from below, so the
tub wouldn't have to be removed and it would increase the load bearing
capacity of the floor. (Would it?)

Can any of the noters offer any comments on the wisdom or folly of
this plan? Legal? (I make no claims to knowing anything about 
architecture.) Alternatives?

Thanks,

Edd

    
    What kind of tub?  Kohler?  Where did you buy it?  
    If the supply house doesnt have a repair kit/paint to match,
    try calling the manufacturer...that's what I did.  The carpenter
    put a "ding" in my Kohler tub, so I called Kohler, and they sent\
    the matching paint/lacquer for the tub....looks fine!
    deb
    

    Sounds good to me. and
    your drawing is very nice!
    

    
    
    	I'm planning on installing a glass shower door, the stall
    	is made of fiberglass, I believe, and is only 2 years old.
    	The opening is 32 1/4. Can I buy a door unit and just install
    	it, or do I have to get one that fits the specific stall.
    	I was looking in a catalog and they have them that fir
    	27-31 inch openings, and then 32-36 openings.
    
    	Is this very hard to do also?
    
    	Thanks
    
    	Ken

    Sommerville lumber has an extensive assortment of shower doors for
    a reasonable cost.  Most of thier doors are in stock to take home
    with you.
    
    Greg

    	I put a glass door on a 36" shower last year.  You can get a
    custom fit.  With a 32" opening you probably can have just a glass
    door.  With my 36" opening I got a 24" door and a 12" panel.
    	Take the measurements to a plumbing supply house and pick the
    style.  It took 2 weeks for the custom order to come in. 
    Installation wasn't bad, but it get confusing because the
    door has a universal hinge that can be hung from the left or right.
    Only the glass pieces came cut to size.  I had to hack saw the metal
    sections.  Go to a store that has a door installed and on display
    and take a few notes.  I ended up going back to the store half way
    through my installation for another look.  
    	The measurements are important, but you do have a little slack.
    The sections screw together in such a way to allow about 1/2" of
    slop.
    				=Ralph=

    Depending on your shower stall's shape on the bottom of the opening,
    you may also have to radius the edges of the door asmy (I did
    it on a grinder, and guess when the power switch decided to die
    after 40 yrs). Its time consuming, but not too bad.
    
    Eric

    I installed one I bought at Spag's (in the 'olde schoolhouse') in
    about 2 hours.  I also have a FG stall and no grinding of the corners
    was required.  It was very easy, cost < $100, works perfectly and
    has held up to a lot of abuse.
    
    Pete

    	Sale,sale,sale,sale!!!  Spags is having a spl sale on FG doors
    as we speak!!!!
    

    	Better yet!!!  Grossmans Outlet store in Braintree has a bunch
    of different sizes, All UNDER $50, mebbe their other outlet stores
    also have them.                               

I have a "joystick" type all-in-one faucet for my tub/shower that has
a little plunger that you push in to activate the shower.  When you
shout the water off, it pops out again.

It has broken loose from whatever it was fastened to, so that it can 
be pulled out completely, sping and all.  Worse yet, I can't turn the
shower off.

Is there any way to fix it short of replacing the faucet?

Joan

    
    If it's a Delta, it's called the diverter valve, and is the most
    popular thing that breaks on those shower controls. The plunger
    rots out. You can get new ones at Spag's or at a place like Chas.
    Manoog plumbing.
    
    CdH
    

    What I am looking for, is, an adapter that goes between the shower
    head and the pipe that it threads onto, with a swivel. Is this asking
    too much?? My shower head doesn't tilt down far enough and basically
    hits on itself. I know I could probably get a new shower head but
    I would like to use the one I have (a Delta). I have tried every
    place I could think of, but no luck. 
    
    HELP!!!!

     
      David,
    
         I dont understand, does you shower head already have a swivel
    and you are trying to add another? (if this is the case then you
    will have a problem) or does your shower head presently just screw
    into the pipe and only the head pivots. If this is the case you
    should have no problem finding a swivel at most hardware stores.
    
     I will keep a look out and if I locate one I will let you know.
    
     Dan

Many mail order catalogs and some hardware stores have started selling
something that is a length of pipe maybe 8 inches long with two banjo
fittings on it that you insert between your shower head and the supply
pipe.  I bought one, and like it a lot.  It moves the shower head out
from the wall, and lets you adjust the hight and angle with no muss, no
fuss, etc.  I can't remember what it cost, but it was under $20, maybe
under $10.  It takes less than five minutes to install. Would this do
it?  I don't think they have any kind of official name, but if you 
wander the plumbing aisles, or if you get any of the zillion catalogs 
that come to holders of American Express cards, you can probably track 
one down.
					>>>==>PStJTT

>>> shout the water off, it pops out again.

Joan

New product from fawcet works? They advertised a photo eye water
control fawcet last year and now one you can talk to to control
it. Wonders of american inventiveness!

 >:}

cal

When I re-did a bathroom recently, I replaced everything (1st clue).  This
included the tub/shower.  My problem is with the shower pipe thingie (that pipe
that connects from the copper threaded gizmo behind the wall to the actual
ball-joint shower head).  This is the thing with the slight elbow in it that
starts out perpendicular to the wall and is supposed to end up pointing slightly
down toward the tub.  When I put it together (with the teflon tape stuff),
I screwed it in as far as it would go, but it didn't wind up pointing straight
down.  It's short by 30 degrees or so.  The swivel shower head sprays (according
to the tenant) too much on the shower curtain.

How can I make the shower pipe elbow thingie point straight down?

If I back it up, un-screwing it almost a complete turn, won't this cause leaks
between pipe and shower head?  If I've run out of male pipe threads male pipe,
I imagine I could take a wrench to it and force it further on - the pipe is
real thin, seems soft but, therefore, breakable.  (I've turned it as far as I
feel comfortable doing - I haven't really put my weight into it.)  If I've run
out of female fitting threads, I can't go any further.

    I just did the exact same thing.
    
    If you haven't taken a wrench to it yet, and you're only short by
    30 degrees (1/12 of a turn), you should have no problems.
    
    Get a pipe wrench and wrap the jaws with tape to prevent scratching
    the fixture, then use it. You'll probably find you can get another
    full turn out of it with no problems.
    
    Edd

    If you're truely at the bottom of the femal threads...
    
    Take a file and file off a little of the male end and keep doing dry
    fit tests until you get it lined up the way you want, wrap it with
    teflon tape and retighten with the knowledge that the male/female will
    allow you to tighten it to the position that you want.

We're back...

The most recent BROOKSTONE hard-to-find tools catalog has an
anti-scald set of shower-head, fixture, and aerator. "high quality
brass temperature sensor, stainless steel exterior - exceeds known
scald-resistant codes" 

$20 for the fixture (goes behind your shower head)
$20 for the aerator
$42 for the showerhead.

Reduces the flow to a trickle when temperature exceeds 110 degrees.

Whatcha think?

I'd like to revive this note since I have a related question (to the base note -
not the digression).

My husband and I are in the process of building our own house and we are 
thinking of using corian for the master bathroom shower stall.  Can anyone give
me a guestimate as to what the present cost of corian is per sq. ft.?  Are there
specific dealers to go to?  In other words, where do I go to get the best price
for it?

Any help/direction would be much appreciated.  Thanx in advance for any info.

    Simple question on shower heads...
    
    I wanted to put an efficient shower head on my shower.
    
    It will not connect properly because the pipe coming out
    of the wall seems to have been designed to be used specifically
    with the shower head that was on there.  It looks like your
    standard pipe until you get to the end where the shower head
    goes on.  At the end there is a ball type assembly which is there
    to enable the shower head to rotate in different directions.
                                  
    I though that this "ball" might unscrew from the pipe but it
    will not.  
    
    So, what I am wondering now is, Is it possible to unscrew this
    shower head pipe from the wall?  Is that how they are put on?
    If I take it out and replace it with a new pipe I would imagine
    it is just a matter of threading some plumbers pipe tape on it
    and screwing the new one back in.  
    
    Or am I wrong on the nature of the beast, and is it more complicated
    than that?  Also, I have no access to the back of the pipes for
    the shower.  They are in a wall separating the tub from the toilet.
    
    Easy or Not Easy?
    
    Thanks, Mark.

    The one I recently ripped out was your worst nightmare. Soldered,
    effectively making it 1 piece from control to shower head.
    
    If you're lucky, you'll have a drop-ear elbow behind the wall that
    the shower head stub-out screws into. How you'd determine this without
    opening up the wall is beyond me. I suppose you could try unscrewing
    it and hope for the best, but if it's soldered (and I have no idea
    how common that may be) you'll break *something* and then be forced
    to open the wall.
    
    A removable panel on the opposite side of the wall is not a bad
    thing to have anyhow...
                 
    Edd

    This will not answer your question but I'm entering it
    as food for thought.   Several years ago I also installed
    an "efficient" shower head, so-called water saver type.
    
    It worked great, except after several months we noticed we were
    having much more mildew build up than we experienced in the past.
    I eventually re-installed the old shower head and conditions
    improved.  The bathroom in question does not have a ventilating
    fan.  

	Re: .2

	Did you ever determine why you got more mildew with the water-saver
head?  All I can imagine was that the new head had a different spray pattern
than did your old one and possibly left more water on the curtain / walls than
you had before.

								-c

If your shower head is like the majority of them out there, then yes, 
you unscrew that pipe from the wall, and screw in a new one that is 
threaded at both ends.  They're generally just a few bucks at the 
hardware store.  Be sure and coat the end with teflon tape or pipe goop 
so you don't get leaking inside the wall.  

If you're unlucky like one of the previous replies, somone will have
soldered it in place, but it should be pretty obvious from the
resistance which type you have.  (It's hard to imagine that the kind of
person who's cheap enough to use one of those ball-end shower heads
would then go to the effort of soldering the pipe in place.) 

					>>>==>PStJTT

    
    How about cutting off the end with the old head and re-threading
    the pipe?  Be sure to build some type of brace to hold the pipe
    REAL steady though or you could have Old Faithful when you turn
    the shower on.
    
    Phil

    Thanks for all the input...
    
    I got lucky this time.  It did screw out.  Picked up a new 6" arm
    threaded on both sides, $5.00 at the Fair, teflon taped the threads,
    installed, and open for business.
    
    Now I can go back to tearing the shower out of my upstairs bathroom,
    but thats another story...
    
    Mark

    re .7:

    How old was your old shower head?  We've got a monster from the 30's
    that I'd like to replace.  Somerville Lumber stocks a couple of
    different styles of converters from ball-joint to standard, but they
    don't fit ours.  I'd try unscrewing the pipe, but I'm afraid to mess
    with plumbing behind the wall after a previous unpleasant experience.

    Well, I would imagine this was the original arm and head.
    The house is 25 years old.  I am not sure when they started
    using threaded arms.
    
    I had to use a large pipe wrench to get the arm to start turning.
    There was that moment of uncertainty as to wether or not is was
    unscrewing or breaking off.
    
    Maybe someone else has done this with a house your age, 60 yrs old?
    and they could tell you what type of arm they had on there.
    
    Good luck, Mark.

I just started pricing Corian for a kitchen counter.  It's not cheap, but the
price seems to be coming down.  I was told it comes in 1/4", 1/2" and 3/4"
ranging in lengths up to 12 feet.  The only catch is that the only 2 widths
are 25" and 30".

Just call any lumber yard to get a price and go from there.  I think the price
for an 8 foot 25" piece was somewhere around $250 (at Littleton Lumber) which
is certainly cheaper than the $50/foot I was quoted 2 years ago.

-mark

    I've found Littleton Lumber to be far from the cheapest place around
    on price (I never trust a lumber yard when the sales people have
    jackets with little emblems on them), so if you price around, you
    probably could do better.
    
    Eric

    Littleton (Ma) Lumber and Concord (Ma) Lumber are two different
    branches of the same place

My thanx for all those that replied.

We did check around and found that it was much cheaper to buy the sheets.  All
others quoted a price of between $90 to $125 per sq. ft including installation.

However, since corian is not something you can install yourself - biggest reason
being, Dupont will honor its 10 year warranty only if installed by a licensed 
installer - what would be a reasonable charge for installation?  Any 
recommendations?

Mark, how about you?  How do you plan on getting the corian installed?

Thanx again.

re:.-1

I plan on installing the corian myself.  I've never done it but it doesn't
sound to hard.  I plan on doing a real small counter and building up my
confidence. If I blow it I'm out some $$$'s, but at least I'll know up front
what's involved. however, I'm only doing counter tops, I'm not sure what's
involved for a shower where water tightness is critical. 

re: Littleton Lumber

I admit this place is not the cheapest, though my 10% builders discount (12% if
I pay within 10 days) brings them right in line with others.  However, I find
their lumber of excellent quality.  I've bought bargain lumber before and as
far as I'm converned I'd rather pay more and have a straight board.

For what it's worth, Littleton Lumber is just as cheap as Spags for sheetrock
screws not counting my discount!

-mark

My parents have had a corain tub/shower for 6 years, no problem.  They 
had someone put it up, but it's very simple.  

On the nozzle/faucet side, there is a single sheet, tub to ceiling.
On the opposite side, there is a single sheet, tub to ceiling.

On the long side, there are two equal-width pieces, tub to ceiling.  I 
assume they meet as well as possible at their joint, which is in the 
'middle' of that side of the tub.  

There is then a 6" strip, tub to ceiling, glued(?) over that joint.  

It is grouted in the two corners, on both sides of the 6" strip, all along
the tub, and along the ceiling.  

Looking down:


      |========================= =========================|
      |                      =======                      |
      |                                                   |
      |                                                   |
      |                                                   |
      |                                                   |
      |                                                   |

More on -.1


"a corain tub/shower" 

The tub is cast iron, the enclosure is corian.


I'm not sure which went up first, the front/back, or the long side.  So 
I don't know if it's 

       =====|        or        ======
            |                       |
            |                       |

    I'm going to be building a shower pan in the next few weeks.
    The area and size I am using is rather unique, so a 'stock'
    shower pan is not going to work.
    
    I have read that they can be built relatively easy using
    sheet copper or Lead.  Does anyone know the source for copper
    or Lead sheeting? Cost for each? (area is about 12 square feet)
    
    Has anyone else done this and do you have pointers/hints?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Mark
    

    When I built a portico for my house a couple of years ago, I
    put on a copper roof. If I had purchased the copper from a
    lumber yard, it would of cost me three times of what it did
    cost me. 
    
    I purchased it at Cambridge Street Metal Co. in Allston, MA,
    phone number: 617-254-7580. The actual cost was about $25 for
    each 3' X 8' sheet. If that supplier is not in your vacinity, 
    look for suppliers under 'Copper' in the Yellow Pages. Likewise, 
    if you want lead, look it it under the heading 'Lead'.
    
    They also sell copper tinned with lead.
    
    As for pointers for making the pan, the magazine 'Fine Homebuilding'
    had a good article on doing it within the last two years. Also
    'This Old House' had part of a show dedicated to making a 
    pan, but used some other kind of very flexible non-metallic
    material. It looked much easier to handle. The show was on last
    year.

    If you want I will find the article in 'Fine Homebuilding' and
    send you a copy.
    
    	Steve    
    

    
    Judging from the price of copper right now ($41 for 250' of 12-2,
    used to be $20!) I don't think you'll get away as cheap as $25 for
    a 3'x8' sheet.  Hopefully there are alternate materials.

    re .2
    
    He is right. I just called them up for a price on what I used
    two years ago and since then the price has doubled. For the
    quantity that I had bought it is now $52 a sheet. A single
    sheet of 3 X 8 will run you $65.
    
    The salesman said the reason for the jump in price is that copper 
    is now trading at an all time high. 
    
    By the way, the weight of the roofing copper was 16 oz and
    is cold rolled. You may be able to get away with a lighter
    weight.

    
    	Steve

    I remember seeing on TOH a shower where they used some kind of
    "membrane" material over the plywood.  I think they then tiled over
    that.  I don't know if this is something that a DIYer could do,
    but something to think about.
    
    Ed..
    

    You could make a fiberglass-over-plywood pan very inexpensively.
    

    Thanks for all the replies.  I am intrigued with the possibility
    of using Fiberglass over plywood.  Am I correct in thinking I could
    put a plywood 'form' in place, cover it with several layers of
    reinforced fiberglass material (fabric and liquid polymer) and then
    fill it with 2 inches of mortar.  Is this correct?  Is the Mortar
    required?
    
    M

    Copied without permission from The Family Handyman, October 1988
    
    How to Construct a Concrete Shower Pan
    
    Once the rough plumbing is in place, the most important element
    for this long-lasting trouble-free shower is to construct a watertight
    shower pan.  One piece plastic or fiber shower units are the simplest
    since they contain their own pan.  Unfortunately, they can't be
    customized.
    
    Plan for a minimum 4 inch deep pan, which means a 4 inch curb
    (illustration).  This gives a watertight safety margin should the
    drain clog and cause water to back up.
    
    You can purchase special pan liners in ceramic tile supply stores.
    Fold the corners so it remains continuous and avoid puncturing or
    tearing it.  Because the folds tend to build up the corner thickness,
    allow your plates to overlap the curb 1/8 inch out to accomodate
    the fold.  Then nail up the cement backer board, being careful not
    to nail through the bottom 4 inches of liner.
    
    The final one inch of concrete should be mixed very dry and be packed
    firmly any time before laying the floor tile.  Be sure to retain
    a slope toward the drain.  A special concrete floor mix is available
    from most ceramic tile suppliers for this purpose.

I am now looking for a shower door also and I'm not too concerned with the
complexity of the task but simply where is the best place to get one.  Last
night I took a deep breath and ventured into Summerville Lumber.  Quite
honestly I don't know why I goto that place since virtually every time I go
there I leave disappointed.

In this case, they did indeed have a nice assortment of door, only they didn't
have any that would fit my shower!  Mine is 42" wide and the biggest door they
had was only 39".  What did surprise me though was this was the first time I've
ever talked to a salesman who seemed to know what he was talking about.   He
explained that they carry doors and accessories to match the brand they stock
and that eash brand is different!  He suggested I check out the brand of my
fixtures and find someone who deals in them to get the best selection and price.

I'm not sure what brand of fixtures I have and the only hint is on the bottom 
of the toilet seat - BEMIS.  Is that simply the maker of the toilet seat or
do they also make fixtures?

One final thought I had was maybe Builder's Square could help, but the thought
of driving an hour and not finding what I want is not to encouraging (unless of
course I stop at Tortilla Flats for dinner!).

-mark

    Try Demers Glass on Rt. 110 in Lowell.  Their selection isn't as
    big or as cheap as Sommerville but I remember the salesman saying
    that all the doors come in a variety of colors (silver,gold,bronze)/
    styles(mirrored,frosted,etc)/sizes.
    

    I am in the process of building a Neo-Angle shower and was wondering
    based on other notes about the use of epoxy paint could I get by
    with buying a shower base, build the walls with sheetrock, then
    paint them with epoxy?  

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
question is already answered, or you may find a note where your question would
be an appropriate continuation of the discussion.  Note that since nearly
everyone uses NEXT UNSEEN to read notes, your question will get the same
exposure whether it is a response to a two-year-old note or it is its own new
note. These topics were found using the keyword directory (note 1111), and you
may find other notes relating to this subject by examining the directory
yourself. 

We do, however, welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a 
problem that may be under general discussion.  And this moderator has been 
known to make mistakes. :^)  So if after examining these notes, you wish to 
continue the discussion here, send me mail.

DCL [Moderator]

    I have a SYMMONS TEMPTROL '76 PRESSURE BALANCING MIXING SHOWER VALVE
    in my shower and it is leaking from the handle.  I asked the SYMMONS
    manufacture on how to fix the problem and he said that when I take
    of the handle all I have to do is tighten the packing nut, simple
    huh.  Well, that is not the problem, I can not get the stupid handle
    off, I unscrewed the screw holding the handle off and tried pulling
    the handle off but it would not budge.  The shower value is not
    that old , it is about 1 Year old.  Does anyone know of any way
    that I can get the handle off without breaking the shower valve,
    that is all I need to break the unit trying to fix a drip.  I do
    not want to apply to much pressure to the unit, I might break it.
    Any Help would in this problem would be greatly appreciated.
    
    Thanks
    
    Joe
    

	There's likely some corrosion or calcium build up between
	the handle and stem.  Try some WD-40 or equivalent and let
	it soak in.

    repl .1
    
    Would there be that much of a build up of corrision after 1 year.
    Would it also be that strong so it would prevent me from taking
    the handle of, Well I guess it can not hurt I will try it.  I was
    also think about putting a wedge behind all three sides of the handle
    and trying to force it loose.  
    
    Thanks

    When the plumber installed my Symmons valve, he put some vaseline on
    the stem before installing the handle. If you ever get your handle off,
    you might consider doing this before reinstalling. 
    

    		I had this problem in my old house just as the house went 
	on the market.  A leak  behind  the  wall.  Mine turned out to be 
	the "O" rings on the diverter handle.  I tried for 3 weeks to get 
	that  damn thing off used every oil and  liquid  wrench  I  could 
	find.  I finally gave up being nice and  figured  if I broke it I 
	was no worse off than I was now.  I  took  my trusty hammer and a 
	bit of padding and preceded to bang on the handle.  The trick was 
	to  vibrate  the  thing  loose.  Tap on the three corners of  the 
	handle alternating sides (top,  bottom  left,  top, bottom right, 
	etc..).  It worked for  me and the handle had to of been on there 
	for at least 5 years.
	
				...Dave
				

    RE .4
    
    Did you have the same kind of shower value? When you say you padded
    it did you pad the handle with a rag of something that would not
    scratch the handle.  Did you have to hit the handle really hard
    to relase it , I just don't want to break the stupid thing I really
    do not want to go through all the trouble of fixing the entire shower
    unit just for a drip.  When you pulled the handle off do you know
    what caused it too stick and not come off, is it just a tight fit
    or what.

A faucet handle puller (I don't know if this is the correct name) should 
do the trick.  I holds the handle at three points and applys pressure to 
shaft.  It works like a pulley remover.  You ought to be able to find one
at any harware store that has plumbing supplies.  I got mine at Somerville
Lumber.

The last time I had to remove one of these, the stem snapped. Try
soaking it with WD-40 or liquid wrench and working it off gently, BUT
don't be surprised or too disapointed if it breaks. :-(

When you re-install, DEFINETLY use some vasoline on the stem!

Charly

On a slightly different note on the same problem...

I can't get the water volume handle off mine.  This shower has leaked 
for a while, and we've stopped using it (don't worry, we have two showers
in the house).
Inspired by this note, I tried to get the front off the unit.
The big handle comes off (relatively easily), but I can't get the little 
one out. The instruction sheet shows a small clip that is sometimes used 
to hold the small handle in place, but I can't find access to it 
through the escutcheon.

I know there must be an easy way to get it off.  
Any pointers?

- tom]

	Re: Diverter valve
	
		First you have to remove the face  plate.   This requires 
	that you  on  screw  the  center  cover.   This is the part which 
	sticks out in  the middle where the main knob get attached.  This 
	part just unscrews.  Then remove the 2 screws which hold the face 
	plate  to  the valve behind  the  wall  and  it  should  pop  off 
	revealing the workings. 
		
		
				
					...Dave

>		First you have to remove the face  plate.   This requires 
>	that you  on  screw  the  center  cover.   This is the part which 
>	sticks out in  the middle where the main knob get attached.  This 
>	part just unscrews.  

Yup, that was the key, thanks.
What made it hard was that the center ring is separate from the outer
escutcheon plate, but the two looked to be one piece, or fused together.

What really complicated matters was that the installer packed plaster
all around the body of the valve, essentially locking the center
bushing in place.  This plaster also locked in the escutcheon screws, so
they broke off when I unscrewed them.

I was really ripped at that technique, but then I read in the faucet 
installation instructions that the plaster is supposed to be there!
What's it for?  How do people normally install it so it doesn't lock 
the pieces together as I found them?  What if I don't repack it when I 
put everything back together again?  (I really did need to get the plaster
out, else I wouldn't have been able to remove and replace the front plate
screws , and I suspect the diverter valve is leaking, and it would have
been impossible to fix it otherwise.  Also, this is just a shower, no tub,
so the diverter valve is just a volume control.)

This is a Temptrol '76 model B.

Any more tips?

- tom powers]

	RE: PACKED IN PLASTER
	
		If the  instructions say to do it they must have a reason 
	although I've never seen it done this way.  Most of the ones I've 
	seen have a plastic plaster protector that  covers  and  protects 
	the valve body opening until after plastering and construction. 
		
		The  only  possible reason I could think of  is  to  help 
	support the valve.  But  that's  a  pretty  "flimsy"  excuse (pun 
	intended).  These valves take quite a bit of abuse from users and 
	should be securely mounted to stud work  from  behind.    All the 
	ones  I've  seen  have mounting holes for this.    And  under  no 
	condition should the be supported by just the pipes,  this  is  a 
	guaranteed leak and a entry in why they ever did that note.
		
								
					...Dave

    I'm at the other end of this project - how do you REMOVE shower
    doors?  Most of the parts come off with a screwdriver, but that
    leaves the track on the bottom, which seems to be glued and caulked,
    and some caulking around the wall edges.  The caulking on the shower
    walls can be sort of chipped off, I'm more concerned with how to
    get the bottom track off.  
    
    Any hints?

Mine came off with elbow grease - a flexible putty knife jammed in to start
separating the track from the tub, then combining that with pulling on what's
been loosened.  I remember scraping caulk-remains with a razor blade with only
minor scratches and marks on the porcelain.

You might try heat also. Lots of old hard dried knarly things just turn soft
and pliable when heat is applied... paint and chewing gum to mention a two.
You can start with hair dryer or iron to start with before breaking out the
propane torch.  You don't want to crack the porcelain obviously.

    
    Also on the same topic:  What about repairing small scratches on
    a fiberglass tub surround (Swan Tubwall).  These are the kind of
    scratches from cleaning with an mildly abrasive cleaner..which I
    know is a "no-no" but since it happened...
    
    Should these superficial scrathces be waxed over, gone over with
    Gel coat, or perhaps spayed over with a clear lacquer?
    
    /Dave

    Well, hopefully some of you have installed a neo-angle shower since
    the last reply to this note!
    
    At Somerville Lumber for the next two weeks, there is a neo-angle
    shower kit on sale for $290.  However, this is a 7 piece shower
    (1 base, 1 corner wall, 2 side walls, 3 door pieces).  Like the
    tub liners, the walls should be glued to sheetrock.
    
    What are the advantages and disadvantages to having these many pieces
    for a shower?  Also, has anyone found a 1 piece neo-angle shower?
    Any other insights or recommendations?
    
    Thanks,
    
      George

    I installed a 7 piece neo-angle shower last winter in our new addition
    (after the plumber had installed the base).  It was fairly easy to do,
    the instructions that came with it were pretty good.  They even
    supplied the adhesive and the caulk.  I recall that it took me a few
    hours to do the entire installation.
    
    We like ours because its a real space saver and it looks nice, but
    there are some disadvantages.  You can't open the door and turn the
    shower on to heat up without getting water all over the place.  You
    have to get in and stand in a corner while the water comes up to temp.
    I learned to turn on the hot water at the sink and wait for that to
    heat up, then turn it off and jump in the shower and turn the shower
    on.  This minimizes heat up time (and the time spent getting sprayed
    with cold water).
    
    Bob
    
    

    LASCO, one of the larger fiberglass tub and shower manufacturers,
    makes a one piece fiberglass base and wall unit.  And then you
    add the metal and glass outer walls and door.
    
    County Supply (Very large plumbing supply house in Lowell) has this
    unit by Lasco set up in their show room.  The whole system (fiberglass
    base & surround, chrome/glass door and walls) costs $358.  I was
    very impressed with the quality; much more so than the Kinkead
    setups that Somerville is displaying.  I think it is worth the extra
    $.

I was looking through the Sears (or was it J. C. Penney) catalog that arrived
recently and was impressed with the selection of ne0-angle showers they had. I
seem to remember a couple of pages with different features in the $210 to $275
range. I wish I had thought to add one in our master bath separate from the
jaccuzzi. I take showers every day and it would have been a nice complement to 
the resale "feature" of the jaccuzzi.

     Question 1
     I'm installing a Symmons Temptrol Shower Valve in a new stall
    shower (part of overall bathroom remodel).  The Symmons has
    threaded water supply inlets.  I assume my choices are to use
    the threaded copper fitting that can then be sweated onto the
    supply pipes or.....
    
    use compression fitting on the supply pipes and screw into
    the valve.  Are there any PRO's or CON's to either approach.
    I see the compression fitting allowing for ease of removal,
    however are they prone to leaking over time??
               
    Question 2
    
    The valve does not have any screw-down anchoring points to fasten
    it to a cross-stud............how should I secure the valve other
    than using pipe straps as close to the valve body as possible?

Well we just moved into our house about a month ago.  And we decided
that we don't like our shower head.  Its a Peerless watersaver type,
and it not only constricts the flow...but it seems to constrict the pressure 
as well.  We have excellent water pressure from all the faucets in the house, 
I just wish the shower head used some of that pressure instead of cutting
it down.  I would think that something which would constrict flow would also
cause the pressure to rise...ours doesn't seem to work that way though.

In the past I have showered at other places (I can't remember where right now) 
with "water-saver" heads and have recieved a bit more shower than ours gives.
I believe that the spray pattern of our shower head may be giving us the
illusion that the pressure is lower than it really is.

So we went around looking for new shower heads. Thus the problem. 
There are several different types and configurations, most say water-saver,
but I have no idea if any of these are any better or worse than what I
have.  All I know is that the plastic heads seem cheap, so I'm leaning towards
a mostly metal one.  Also I think that I still want to stick with a water-saver.

Does anybody have a suggestions, or recommendations with regards to shower
head selection?


Thanks,
	Chris

we had a "mass-save" energy saving update.  they wrapped the water heater 
and put water saver heads on all the sinks and showers.  it's free!  call 
mass electric if you live here.

the shower head is one of the small metal ones with a slide through button
on the side to shut off the flow.  it seems pretty good to me and i've seen 
ones that 'look' the same at spag's for less than 5 dollars.

craig

    
    
    		Try "The Incredible Head", about $6-7.
                
    		Hope this helps.
    
    John

re: .10

>Does anybody have a suggestions, or recommendations with regards to shower
>head selection?

I have a waterpik message shower head and reccommend it highly. After spending 
hours stripping cielings, woodwork etc., or a hard day water skiing 8^)|
blasting hot water in a pulsating mode is extremely relaxing!!!   8^)

It is a removable head with a hose attached to it so you message specific areas
that are sore 8^)  It works wonderfully.


ps. I also had mas-save come in. I have extra water saver 'washers' if you want
one.

Roger_who_never_suffers_from _soreness_after_a_hard_days_work!   8^)

    Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask but, what's the number for
    Mass Save (I'd call directory assistance, but don't know what town/area
    code)?  And, they'll come to your house for free and give you energy 
    saving devices free, including a water-heater blanket???
    
    Thanks,
    John

     Moen really is the one and only type of shower head to get [IMHO!]. 
They don't clog up as readily as others do, and when then do, they are
easy to fix.  Other kinds I've had couldn't be unclogged.

re .14:

   See note 2205, especially 2205.6.

Thanks for the info, folks.

RE: (I forgot which reply)...but what manufacturer makes 
"The Incredibble Head"?

Chris

    
    
    	We had Mass Save do our house. All the stuff works great.
    	Unfortunately it took 8 months from the time we first called to 
    	the day they showed up and the only reason it happened that fast 
    	was my wife was home sick the day Mass Save came to town.
    
    
    						Mike
    						----

>                 -< Mass Save is good if your willing to wait >-

I'd have to wait forever, I live in NH


    

	Here we are our first house and our first well and
	the first week we've already started having problems with the water.  

        What happens is the water just stops running it usually
	resumes a few minutes later, then stops again.

	There isn't much pressure when it starts again.  Any
	suggestion as to what to do or what it might be?

	The pressure gauge on the tank reads 17-20 psi.

	

	Any information will be appreciated.
	If you can direct to any specific note that I might missed,
        which pertains to this problem I'd appreciate it.  I read through
        the other notes which deal with wells but nothing jumped out that
        was quite like this.


Thanks,
Muhammad

Check out the air bladder in the holding tank. It's probably empty.

    Assuming that your water pressure was OK up to this problem, i.e. it
    sounds like you have a pressure switch problem. You can check this by 
    doing the following:
    
    1. While you are watching the pressure gage, open a tap and leave it
    open long enough to allow the pump to cycle on and off. A properly
    functioning system will have high and a low limit, the pump kicks in
    at the low point and out at the high point; there is no fixed limits 
    on these, a typical high might be 60 psi and a typical low could be 
    between 20-40 psi.
    
    2. If you are reading a high of 20 psi, you probably have a bad
    pressure switch or one that is incorrectly set. This low pressure 
    (as a high) would explain the water stoppage and its return a while later; 
    a high of 20 psi would be just sufficient to give you water on the
    second floor, and only when the tank recycles to this point again
    would you get more flow.
    
    3. Most pressure switches have two adjustment screws, and most have 
    a label on or under the cover that tells you what these adjustments
    are. I believe one is for the hight pressure point and the other is
    for the differential between the high and low points. I would estimate
    you try the high pressure one first, and use the gage to watch the 
    pressure increase. A word of caution, if the gage is old, it probably
    won't read right and you could over-pressure the water tank - so
    increase the pressure slowly until you have a continuous flow.
    
    4.Otherwise, if the pressure switch is old, you may want to replace it
    and it should run you no more than $20 (DIY). If you decide to take
    this route, there should be lots of help on this file, or from partic-
    ipants.
    
    Good Luck!
    
     

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
question is already answered, or you may find a note where your question would
be an appropriate continuation of the discussion.  Note that since nearly
everyone uses NEXT UNSEEN to read notes, your question will get the same
exposure whether it is a response to a two-year-old note or it is its own new
note. These topics were found using the keyword directory (note 1111), and you
may find other notes relating to this subject by examining the directory
yourself. 

We do, however, welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a 
problem that may be under general discussion.  And this moderator has been 
known to make mistakes. :^)  So if after examining these notes, you wish to 
continue the discussion here, send me mail.

Paul [Moderator]

    I am in the process of installing a one peice fiberglass
    shower unit and would like some advice/comments regarding
    available drain assemblies:
    
    Drain 1- Uses a plastic hub that is PVC glued (welded) to the
             1.5" PVC drain pipe. The hub sits under the fiberglass
             shower unit and a threaded seal ring is screwed into
             the hub "sandwiching" tyhe fiberglass base.  They 
             suggest using plumber puter under the top flange before
             threading into the hub
    
    				      =\         /=    Upper Flange
                                        |       | 
                                  ======|       |======= Fiberglass Base
                                       |_       _|
                                         |     |        Hub into 1.5"
    							PVC
                                        
    Drain 2- Uses a hub and flange assembly similar to #1 except that
             the hub & flange are mounted to the shower base via
             the sandwich system and then the shower is dropped in
             place so that the PVC drain pipe slides into the hub.
             The hub has a rubber sleeve that is tighted around the
             PVC drain pipe by tightening a threadwed ring which
             compresses the rubber sleeve to form a water tight seal
                                                               
                                     =\       /=      Upper Flange
                                   ====        ======== FiberglassBase
                                      |V     V|  V=Compression Ring
                                      |x|   |x|  X=Rubber Sleeve
                                        |   |
                                        |   |-----PVC Drain Pipe
    
    I'm concerned about how good a seal the compression type assembly
    forms around the drain pipe.  
    
    Also, I am concerned about future serviceability of the drain,
    cause once the fiberglass shwer is in place and sheetrock installed,
    I will not have access to the drain from below.
    
    Any suggestions???

    please use
    #2 type drain in brass which can be purchased at spags about $20. I put
 one in PVC over a cement floor it cracked after 2yrs had to pull the damn                                                                           
    shower all apart again as it cracked around the flange that clamps the
    shower base ! all because fiberglass flexes even over concrete & PVC   
    drains are notoriously weak  usly  
    s

    After looking at this file, no answer seems to have been given.
    
    I'll try now.  I dropped an Exacto knife in the fiberglass tub when
    wallpapering (Stupid, I know!).  I now have a chip in the tub approx
    1/2" by 1/4".  The piece of fiberglass is gone and there is now a
    hole.  Any recommendations on how to patch???  I'm not concerned about
    color matches.  I don't really care if it looks like new.  I'm more
    concerned about SEALING the hole permanently so no water can get in
    there.
    
    Any suggestions??

    You might try either going to a marine supply store and pick up
    a fiberglass repair kit (boat repair). 
    
    Also, if you can find it, some hardware stores have similar kits
    which are for repairing fiberglass tubs.
    
    If all else fails, you can have the tub repaired by a PRO. I know
    a person in Hudson (Mark Donahue) who does a very good job, anywhere
    in New England. Sorry, don't know his number nor do I remember the
    name of his company (self employeed, friend of my wifes family).
    
    I will get the info on Mark and post it in the appropriate reference
    section of this notes file.!
    

    If you decide to go the PRO route you could contact any local
    Plumbing supply place, ie FW WEBB, Republic Plumbing Supply, and
    ask them for the name of their repair man. This kind of damage to
    a tub often happens during construction. The suppliers of the tubs
    need to know a good repairman just in case.  
    
    Several years ago I had a repair done by a pro. The guy that repaired 
    my tub had paint supplied by the manufacturer of the tub, so the color 
    match was very good. You have to look close to find the patch. As
    I remember the color was mixed into the fiberglass compound before
    application. Then a finish coat was sprayed with an air brush. The
    process appeared to be very similiar to repairing a hole in an
    automobile with a fiberglass body. ie Corvette 
    
    The tubb was purchased from FW WEBB and they hired (and paid)
    the repair man.

    
    RE:  .6
    
    What was the going price to have a PRO fix the chip??  I had a guy
    give me an estimate of $85 to $125.  This chip is 1/2" by 1/4".
    Is this price outrageous????

We have a 1/4 per side L shaped tear in our tub, and it is going to cost
$75 to repair.  I agree, it's outrageous.

Margaret.

    The alternative is to buy a new tub/shower..... $75 isn't so bad
    against the $$$s for a new unit.
    
    I agree that the price SEEMS outrageous... BUT the materials these
    PROs need to purchase in order to repair MOST fiberglass tubs and
    showers is extremely expensive and HAZARDOUS to handle while in
    its liquid state (some materials have acid base products).
    
    So, knowing this, I believe these people are justified in charging
    the prices they do for this service. 
    
    As stated in other replies... there are products available which
    will allow the homeowner to complete their own repairs. I think
    you will find these materials nearly the same $$$s as the PROs and
    also have to handle the hazardous products. 
    
    With a PRO (at least the one I know) you get a guarantee, a BONDED
    (not insured, insurance companies won't insure due to the materials
    used) PRO who will take the unused material away with him (you're
    only charged for the portion of the meterial used on your repair)
    and you won't have figure out how to dispose of the hazardous waste.
    
    I am still trying to find the guys number. I've moved out of state
    and haven't been in touch with that bunch since the summer. I will
    find and post the information as soon as possible... in the proper
    topic for CONTRACTORS (or where ever).
    

I've had some experience in this type of repair on a boat.  Its
very tricky stuff that took me a couple of years of constant
practice to even get a marginally acceptable repair.  To do this
repair, you must master:

1. Handling gelcoat, which has its own pecularities.

2. Color matching, which is a significant factor in boat repair
though not as  important in showers...the boat has some fading
which must be matched.

3. Airbrushing or other method of feathering the repair into the
surface.

Believe me, they earn their money!  I had a repair done on my tub
a couple of years ago...it was a stress crack and it was done
perfectly, much better than I could have hoped to do.

    Thanks for the last few notes.  Now that I understand the process
    --  the price doesn't seem bad at all.  As a matter of fact, I
    think this guy might undercharge!!  Maybe I should give him a
    couple hundred (Ha. Ha)
    
    Thanx again for the insight.
    
    Sandie

    	Having built fiberglass bodies, I have to cast a dissenting opinion
    re the cost of materials for the repair.  You are mostly paying for
    travel time, skill and labor.
      Materials: 5 oz. crowfoot weave fiberglass cloth - about $4 per yard
                 Saf-T-Epoxy (the good stuff) - about $60/gallon (probably
                        get 50 - 100 spot repairs out of this amount)
    		 Gel-coat is similarly modest in price

    so, the material cost for a small repair is under $5.

Last night I watched a pro repair the l-shaped hole in our fiberglass 
tub.  I could not have done as good a job without a lot of practice.
If I had only wanted to seal the hole I could have done it myself very
easily.  It took the over an hour, and you can have to know where the tear
was to find the patch. 

    We installed ours using a brass drain. Yup, the floor of the shower
    stall flexes and it leaks. Luckily it is on the first floor and just 
    dribbles onto the celler floor. When we notice it we recaulk around the
    top edge of the drain and the floor of the stall. We have the caulk
    technique down and it lasts for a couple of years.

One of the glass shower doors on a 25-year old bathtub has come apart.  The 
angles in the top two corners of the aluminum frame have broken at the 
threaded screw hole.  Does anyone know if they can be replaced.  I've no idea 
who made the doors; the tub is by Standard.

Joan Deaderick

RE: .0
	You could try a dealer of the standard product line. Do you think
that the shower doors were installed when the tub was installed?

	You could also try different plumbing houses, when you find a shower
door that looks like yours, order the parts from the manufacturer of that door.

	You could also try some glass places.. Some of them specilize in shower
door installations. I remembr seeing one on this old house. I also think I
remember seeing a place like that in Worcester, Mass.

			Bill

    I have a different problem with my Temptrol valve.  It doesn't want to
    go all the way "off" unless you apply serious elbow grease.  The valve
    is about a year old and replaced an ancient, irreparable leaky old
    three-knob system.  When it was new, it was tough to shut off, but
    lately it has gotten worse (especially when it has run enough to warm
    up, I suspect).
    
    As a workaround, I turned down the cold water pressure going into it,
    so now it has enough water to run the shower near full bore but is slow
    into the bath portion.  That's not a major hassle, but I don't think
    that's the way it should be.  Is this easy to fix?
        fred

From what I can tell, the Temptrol uses a washer-type valve to regulate the
flow, and if this washer got crud under it, it may not seal completely.  You
can disassemble a Temptrol, but it's not an easy job.  I don't know if
replacement parts are available.

			Steve

    I found a replacement stem for a temptrol at Phillip Mara in Grafton,
    Mass. I suppose you could look around for plumbing supply stores that
    are convenient to you. Particularly the store where you bought it.
    
    BTW, the stem was not cheap, so be careful you don't force yours too
    much. That's how I ended up needing a replacement.
    
    Dismantling it is easy. Remove the knob, remove the plate on the wall
    and CAREFULLY unscrew the stem from the valve with an adjustable
    wrench. Putting it back in is a bit of a trick, so check with the pro
    at the store. That's where I had a great deal of difficulty and don't
    even remember how I managed to get the thing back in. The stem (to open
    the faucet) and the assembly I think turn in opposite directions so you
    end up tightening the stem too much when you use the wrench to tighten
    the assembly back in place.
    
    Good luck!

    Sal, you forgot to mention that you should shut the water off before
    you remove the valve. right?  ;^)  ;^)
    
    Steve

    Oh! Is that why the water kept coming out?? :-)
    
    Sal

    Time to revive an oldie.
    
    I am in the process of totally remodeling a basement bathroom.
    The shower taht was in there was a custom made job, by that I mean
    pieces of ceramic tile and plastic surround walls. Well, after
    removing all the old tile and rotted wood we decided to go with
    a 36" neo-angle corner shower. This also meant moving the shower drain.
    
    Then I had two choices. Put the shower base up on a platform and
    run the drain under that to the old drain, or cut the concrete
    and run the drain pipe that way.
    
    Well, my arms are still shaking from using the jack-hammer last night.
    Actually it was quite simple, about 20 minutes to cut 30" X 4 ".
    The drain pipe that is already there is 3" (i.d.) cast iron.
    The shower base drain is 2". I have cut down some of the 3" drain
    to allow for the drainage from the shower.
    
    A couple of questions.
    
    Can I use PVC from the shower to the cast iron drain, and if so what
    can I do to make the 2" pipe fit snugly inside the 3" pipe?
    
    Should I be concerned about covering the drain pipe that will be
    under the shower base? It won't be exposed so aesthetics is no real
    concern. 
    
    Thanks...Jim 

re                     <<< Note 3640.4 by USRCV1::RHODESJ >>>

>    Can I use PVC from the shower to the cast iron drain, and if so what
>    can I do to make the 2" pipe fit snugly inside the 3" pipe?

          Use a rubber 3" to 2" adapter. and secure with hose clamps.  These
          are availble at Spag's.
    
>    Should I be concerned about covering the drain pipe that will be
>    under the shower base? It won't be exposed so aesthetics is no real
>    concern. 
    
          It's always a good idea to have access to the drain/trap area for
          opening clogs.  You should install a cleanout, unless you can get
          to the one built into the 2" PVC trap.

   Steve    

    I just bought a new, hand held type of shower head but I'm hesitant to
    install it because the pipe that sticks out of the wall moves back and
    forth (into and out from the wall). Is there a clip or something that
    has probably broken off or become loose? The shower enclosure itself
    look like it has been replaced because it is made of those el-cheapo
    plastic panels and the splash guards are tile (and I don't think they
    had those el-cheapo panels when the house was built thirty or so years
    ago). Fortunately, there is an access panel that I could possibly use
    to remedy the situation, but it doesn't go up that high and it's in a
    closet. (Maybe I'll just have to make that acces panel a bit bigger).
    
    Any ideas?
    
    Steve
    

The chrome pipe onto which you thread the shower head is usually threaded into
a brass elbow that is supposed to be firmly attached to the wall structure
(usually by means of a board that goes between the studs).  A poor installation
would just have the pipe sticking up with the elbow on it, and thus there
would be no stability for it.  If you're careful, you should be able to swap
the shower heads without problems, though you may want to clamp a wrench
onto the pipe at the point where it enters the wall, so as to minimize
movement.

There is supposed to be an access panel to get at the plumbing, but I've NEVER
seen one put in (except the one I did myself).

			Steve

    I have had the same problem that all of you have had with the "SYMONS"
    
    It leaks..  I have no problem getting the stem out, I have done
    so 3 times...  and still it leaks,,  I found out by asking outher
    plumbers that when you replace the stem you should also replace
    the hot and cold seats that are in the back of the stem... I 
    have not done this yet as there seems to be no wrench that is made
    for this..  I have heard of somone using a custom made alan wrench
    that will fit and take them out... (don't have that yet either)
    in addition there is a brass screw that sits on the stem, I believe
    this is so when you turn your faucet on or off it will stop at a
    certain point.    here is my question:  does anyone have a special
    tool for removing the two hot and cold seats??  And does anyone
    what that brass screw is for...??       any tips on this "SYMONS"
    temptrol device would greatly appreciated.....
    
    Doug

	When I had my fiberglasss shower fixed,  the guy told me to
	wax it with a NON-CLEANING car wax.  Most car wax like
	Turtle Wax is a cleaning wax.  I happened to have some car wax
	made out of canooba (sp?) which is non-cleaning so I used that.
	The great thing about using this wax is that is goes on real
	easy and polishes real easy too.  Great on cars too but you do
	have to use a pre-wax conditioner which I think is probably the
	cleaner part of most other waxes. I don't know the brand name
	off hand.  I got some from my brother who was giving it away
	by the case load on his radio station.
	
	Garry

    Carnauba or Carnuba.  These New England accents sure mess up our
    spelling, don't they?
    
    John

Hmm - I just used the cheapest car wax I could find, and it worked great.
It was a cleaning wax.  I don't see what the problem with the cleaner
(a bit of solvent and abrasive) is.

However, if it's a fiberglass or PVC enclosure, I'd recommend Gel Gloss.

			Steve

	As far as the 'elbow grease' needed. After waxing my shower stll
    the first time, I realized why it was so darn hard to work with. I
    neglected to CLEAN the stall first. SO the next time I did it, I got
    out the ol' TILEX and did a thurough<sp?> job of cleaning, wiped it
    down, re-rinsed and THEN applied the wax. It went on MUCH...MUCH easier
    this time.

        Steve

    I've had the same sort of problems listed in this topic. I ended up
    having to call Symmonds and asking for someone with technical
    expertise. You may want to try the same , if I remember the phone
    number was found in the Thomas Registers under the company name.
    
    Kevin

The cold water in my tub/shower has a serious problem.  It's ok when turned
on a small amount or all the way, but in the middle (where you'd want it) the
pipes start knocking (loudly!) and the cold water shuts off completely.

Any ideas?

    You will most likley find that the screw loosened up and the washer 
    is loose and rattling .
    
    
    Lou

    I've tried searching the directory, but can't find what I'm looking
    for.  I'm looking for information on two or three piece figerglass
    shower units.  I'm buying a cape, upstairs unfinished.  The seller
    will put in 1/2 bath, but I want a shower too, so I have to supply
    the shower.  Has anyone had any experience with these?

    I purchased a 3 peice LASCO shower stall for a bathroom
    remodeling. The dimensions are 48x36. Because of the larger
    size and the fact that I had to be able to get it in the
    house and through hallways and doorways.....I was limited
    to a 3 peice design.
    
    The three peices fit very poorly with one another.....extensive 
    shimming and alignment had to be done get everything plumb, level
    and square. The extra joints (which get caulked) between sections
    end to collect dirt. 
    
    The walls have developed "stress cracks" in the fiberglass near
    the flange edge.....and I was carefull to not over tighten the
    fasteners.
    
    Based on a recommendation in this file I poured a concrete bed to
    set the base onto....at least the base now has a solid feel. If I
    had this to do over again.......I would buy just a fiberglass shower
    base and build the rest of the shower using concrete board
    (Wonderboard) and ceramic tile. For the amount of time I had to fuss
    with the fiberglass unit installation......a tile shower would not have
    taken that much more work. I say his after having just completed tiling
    the floor and wall for the bathroom.
    
    I am waiting to see if LASCO is going to repair the cracks under their
    warranty coverage.
    
    JBS

    I currently have a single-control tub/shower faucet - one round knob
    controls the temperature but *not* the volume.  I'd like to replace it
    with a dual-control - one for temperature, one for volume.  (This is
    *not* the "standard" one control for hot, one for cold.)  The only
    places I've seen them are hotels, so I know they exist, although I
    haven't noticed them in stores (yet).

    1.  Does anyone have this setup?  Do you like it?  Are there any
    problems with it?

    2.  How difficult is it to install (replace an existing single-control)?
    I imagine I won't be able to do it without cutting a hole in the wall
    and maybe doing some cutting and soldering.

You should be able to find these at any decent plumbing supply store.
However, look into the Symmons valve that has the separate tub-shower lever
below the temperature-adjusting knob.  This can be used to adjust the
volume as well and works well.

You will need to open the wall behind the valve and do cutting and soldering.

				Steve

I noticed that HQ in Shrewsbury has a wide selection of shower faucets,
and great prices, even better than Spags.  (although I didn't do model
for model comparisons).

>>   <<< Note 4224.0 by XANADU::RECKARD "Jon Reckard, 381-0878, ZKO3-2/T63" >>>
>>            -< Tub/shower controls - one for volume, one for temp >-

	One thing to remember is that at least in NH,  it is required by
	code to have an ANTI-SCALD valve.  Of course, if you're not
	getting the work inspected,  that fact doesn't matter.
	
	I'd suggested going to a plumbing supply house and looking through
	the catalogs so you can at least find out who makes them.
	
	Garry

    
    
    I have a valve in my shower that sounds just like the one you are
    looking for, it has 1 main control for the on/off/volume and the
    hot and cold is in the middle of the main control, so when you turn
    on the water it is already set at the correct temp. I think it is
    made by Delta. (it was installed by the plumber when they built my
    house) It should be available at better hardware stores.

I wanted to do the same thing as .0, but altering the plumbing in my wall
would have been very expensive.  So, as .2 implies, I simply bought a 
showerhead that has a volume control lever on it.  Cost about $20 and
took 5 minutes to install.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

I installed one of these guys recently and it works fine. I think the brand is 
Symmons (or something like that, not Delta), and I got it at Spag's ($64, vs $95
at Sommerville Lumber in Westboro). It has two controls, one for temperature, 
which you set first, and which turns the main water supply on/off, and one for
the tub/shower control. The tub/shower valve controls the volume flow, with the
center position turning the flow nearly all off without changing the temperature
setting. My only complaint is that even with the flow control off (or set to 
shower) there is a constant (low volume) flow out of the tub faucet. It also has
the anti-scald feature. Also, if you set the flow to low while you lather up, it
takes a little while for the temperature to get to the regulated point when you 
turn the volume up again, since the valve is a pressure sensing device rather 
than a temperature sensing one.

Dave

    I'm having a problem with a Symonds Temptrol shower valve.  It's been
    installed for ~ 4 years and used occasionally for the first two years
    and not used at all since then.  The hot water heater has also been
    shut off for the last two years.  I had a new water heater installed
    and now I can't get any hot water out of the shower valve (the sink
    faucet works fine).  As you turn the handle on the valve, you get cold
    water initially and as you move the valve to the hot position, the
    water flow drops to a trickle.  
    
    Has anyone had a similiar problem?  Any suggestions?
    
    

I think there's another note on this symptom somewhere.  It is caused by
the pressure-balancing piston being stuck - possibly by particles in the
water or a building crud from disuse.  The valve needs to be disassembled
and cleaned out.  You should have the exploded parts diagram from the
instructions handy before you start tearing it apart.

				Steve

The other thing to check is to see that both the hot and cold feeds are
turned on to the shower.

		Steve

    We've got the same brand shower valve and exactly the same problem.
    It's happened twice so far.  Personally, if I were going to redo the
    plumbing I'd purchase a different brand. The plumber told us to remove
    the cartridge and clean it.

    [To the best of my understanding...]
    
    Actually it is the anti-scald valve.  I guess these things are required
    in Massachusetts (?)  [-plumbing supply houses must be twice as big in
    the Commonwealth than anywhere else :')].
    
    It is designed to shut off the hot water supply if the cold water
    supply suddenly fails.  [This is supposed to be a frequent occurrence?
    I suppose that some one left a small child in a filling bathtub when the
    cold water failed once.]
    
    If you disassemble the valve (turn off the water supply and relieve the
    pent up pressure first!) you will eventually be able to remove the
    "cartridge".  If you put it on a block of wood and give it a few raps
    with a hammer, you can get the internals loosened up again (at least
    this is what a plumber showed me once).
    
    Disuse tends to make the valve stick.
    
    Rich
    

    
    I had the same problem once.. I was going to buy a new valve but the
    guy at Sommerville Lumber told me to smack it and boil it in vinegar
    for a couple of minutes. You should be able to hear the little gimmick
    inside sliding back and forth when you shake the valve. Saved some
    bucks and its worked fine ever since...
    
    PM
    

The anto-scald valve isn't there for rare cases of catastrophic failure
on the cold water supply.  It's there because there are frequent
fluctuations in the cold water supply if there is more than one person
in the house.  The classic example is someone flushing the toilet when
someone else is taking a shower (a trick my brother and I loved to play
on eachother.)

As .5 says, you can clean up a sticky valve pretty easily.  Boil in
vinegar if there are mineral deposits, just dump it in vinegar and add
salt if it's just tarnish.

>>>==>PStJTT

The Symmons Temptrol is, by definition, an anti-scald valve, and always
has been, laws or no laws.  It works by balancing the hot and cold
pressure; if the pressure of one drops, it closes down the other.  It
relies on a sliding brass piston to accomplish this, and if the piston gets
stuck, you get the described symptom.

				Steve

    Before I wrote the base note, I had taken apart the valve and trying
    wacking it.  That didn't do anything but yesterday it miraculously
    starting working again.  I can only assume the water pressure finally
    broke the piston loose.  I'll definitely try the boil/soak in vinegar
    trick if it fails again.  
    
    Thanks for all of your suggestions.

I have a sort-of similar question.  What makes these valves able to tell when 
you WANT the hot water to only be on or to be on mostly?  Does this valve's
special features kick in only when both water supplies are on?  Does it shut
the hot water off when the cold pressure decreases?  Or just lower the pressure
on the hot by the same amount?

Ed..

Also, why do they have to be so ugly?  I have only ever seen the ones with a
BIG round plate and a single handle.  They seem to be designed for modern looks
and not for nice, soft, (maybe wood) styles.

Ed..

    re: .9:
	What makes these valves able to tell when you WANT the hot water to 
    	only be on or to be on mostly? 
    
    I think the anti-scald protection "monitors" the _incoming_ water
    pressure of both water supplies.  Once it has decided that the incoming
    conditions are okay, you get the pick the output you'd like.
    
    [This explanation shows I've been playing with computers too long :')].
    
    Rich
    

Re: .10

I admit that they are ugly.  Other brands look nicer, but they are more
expensive, and I'm not sure how well they work.

			Steve

    The balance valve changes the size of the hot and cold water supply
    apertures based on pressure differences between the two main supplies. 
    If the pressure in the cold supply goes to zero, the hot supply is
    turned off, and vice versa.  (At least this was my impression from
    having taken one apart).  The resultant hot and cold water flows then 
    go to another valve where they are mixed in the desired proportions and
    the volume is determined.  This second valve is controlled by the
    handles that you have access to inside the shower.  Both valves are behind 
    the face plate where you can't see them, so if you think your control
    is ugly; it's the control handle, not the valves themselves.  
    
    Steve

By "ugly" I mean the external appearance of the valve as seen by the user.
It has a definite 1950s look to it.  But it's functional, and that's why
I like it.

		Steve

    RE: Where to ask questions about SYMMONS valves
    
    I went to THE FAUCETORIUM in downtown Maynard (161 Main Street).
    The lady there (2nd floor) gave me a very good demonstration
    on how the valve works.  Like some of you guys, I had great 
    problem to put the stem back after I took it apart.  I ended
    up bending the stem and stripping the thread in the stem cap.
    It costs me $69.41 to replace the two parts (stem $38 and cap
    $28).  I recommend owners of the SYMMONS go talking with her before
    getting into the DIY business.
    
    Hsieh
    223-2380

    Has anyone had any experience cleaning the glass on shower doors?
    
    My glass shower doors are about 10 years old, and due to hard water
    and insufficient cleaning they have built up a residue that seems
    impossbile to remove. I'd like to restore the original lustre of
    new glass.
    
    I read somewhere that WD40 would restore the lustre to cruddy
    shower doors, but it was very temporary if at all.     They just
    seem to retain this "cloudy" appearance.
    
    Any suggestions?
    
    Tj
    
    
                                            

    A razor blade or sharp paint scrapper will get alot of the hard
    water residue off, followed by some corse steel/copper wool or
    one of those nylon Scrunges.
    
    -al

    Getting soap scum off tub or tub doors is awful. I just went through this.
 One of those plastic sponges will scrape off the soap but your arms will 
hurt after a while. I had success with tub gloss (I found this at 
Somerville Lumber in the tub and sink area). It is used on fiberglass tubs
but worked well with my old tub and enclosure doors.

    Good Luck,

     Bob

    I have a bottle of stuff (I forget what it is called) that I bought
    from a bathroom store. It is made specifically to clean soap scum off
    of glass.  It cost about $10 a bottle (!) but you only need a little 
    bit and you just wipe it on and wipe it off a minute or two later (sort
    of like oven cleaner for glass).  I do this about every 6 months and
    my $10 bottle will last about five years.
    
    Margaret.

    I found TileX did a very good job on glass shower stall door. Took off
    soap scum and any mildew that might have grown under it.

    The October or November issue of Consumer Reports has an article about
    bathroom cleaners, in which they state that most of the expensive
    cleaners are not nearly as cost effective as plain old household bleach
    which excels at removing stuff like soap scum.  Haven't tried it myself,
    yet, though.

    
    I use the steel wool trick. I have tried all the fancy bathroom
    cleaners and none seem to work that great. I use 00 steel wool,
    elbow grease and then wax the whole door with a kitchen wax like
    Jubilee (sp?). After that frequent cleaning and waxing is a maint. req.

re .4,.5:

I believe Tilex is basically chlorine bleach.

    All the suggestions for household cleaners, such as Tilex, remove
    built-up soap scum which is many times easier to remove that built-up
    hard water residue.  These cleaners wouldn't even make a dent in
    the calcium residue.  Only some variation of elbow grease works
    for this.
    
    -al

    If the problem is calcium residue, dilute hydrochloric acid will take
    it right off!  
    
    Or, you might try white vinegar.  Anything acidic.

    When home depot opened in Nashua, the sold some big bottles
    of spray on stuff at 5$ which worked even on calcium if you left it
    on overnight.      
    
    Gelgloss cleaner also works on glass, and seems to inhibit further
    calcium build up.  If you want really low-maintenance, treat them with
    RAIN-X after cleaning -- it prevents the calcium sticking to the
    glass.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin  (who alwys gets to clean the bathrooms....)
    
    

Re:                 <<< Note 4453.2 by ROYALT::TASSINARI "Bob" >>>
                               -< Rub a Dub Dub >-


   The stuff from Somerville I used was GelGloss. Good stuff not so cheap.
      

Re: .10

Home Depot still has the stuff, I saw it there the other day.  It claimed
all sorts of "environmentally safe" benefits.  Does it really work?

			Steve

    
    We've got a product up here called CLR (not real inventive, merely
    stands for Calcium-Lime-Rust I think) that we use on our stuff due
    to hard water as well.  Its about $ 10 a bottle and works extremely 
    well.  It has the typical corrosive warning monogram so you might be
    advised to wear rubber gloves.
    
    I'd be suprised if it wasn't in the U.S.
    
    -Ian

    re .12
    
    Yes, it works fine, although I do use a soft scrubbing brush
    after leaving it sit overnight.  It's called "Eliminate" and seems
    to use high-tech ingredients like "Soap", "Water".  No sign
    of any Humerus Lipoids tho'.
    
    Regards,
    
    C.
    
    
    

There is also a product called LIME-AWAY that does a nice job.

Ed..

    A time warp update of this note.  I'm in the process of trying to
    choose a shower door for our new 48" fiberglass shower unit.  I've
    never shopped for shower doors before.  In a tub/shower combination, I
    greatly prefer a shower curtain that I can just drop in the washing
    machine to remove soap scum build up.
    
    This setup seems to need a door.  I seem to have three options
    
    	Pivot door -  like a previous reply said, the door seems to be a
    		      standard width, with an extra panel to expand to the 
    		      45" width I need.  It has a rail for my hubby to bump
    		      his head on.  The bottom rail is flat, and easy to
   		      clean.
    
    	Sliding doors -  the traditional doors, can be ordered in most
   		      sizes.  Rail on top to bump your head on.  The tracks
    		      on the bottom are easier to clean than older styles
   		      were, but still collect some water and scum.
    
    	Trackless doors -  these are relatively new.  It's a bi-fold design
    		      that stays shut with magnetic strips.  It has no rail
    		      to bump your head, and has no lower track to clean.
    		      It seems a lot less stable, though, and as a result,
    		      cheaper.  The price compares to a slider.
    
    Had anyone bought or used these trackless doors?  Any pro's or con's on
    any one of these styles over any other?
    
    As always, I value your advice and experience.
    
    Elaine
    

    Here in 1991, these 3 panel doors are becoming quite visible in
    showrooms.  Usually one panel has a mirror on it, but that's not
    necessary.
    
    Elaine

    	Whenever I want to clean the soap scum off my shower area, I use a
    product called "Scrub Free" and you can buy it in any grocery store. 
    I've tried the store version, but it doesn't work quite as well.  The
    stuff comes in a quart size (?) bottle, can be used to clean the shower
    area maybe twice, and it costs around 3 or 4 dollars.  You just spray
    this stuff on and you can see the soap film slide down the wall.  It is
    a very mild acid, perhaps like vinegar, but whatever it is, I need to
    buy another bottle, because it's time to clean the shower again.

I've looked at the trackless doors, but felt they are flimsy and would tend to
sag and come loose.  My wife also noted how many more "nooks and crannies"
they have which would accumulate grime (she shares my aversion to cleaning!)
I'm 6'4", but rarely have a problem cracking my head on shower door rails
(though it's happened on occasion.)

				Steve

Re: .12

When I renovated my bathroom last year I got a pivoting door with no top
rail.  It's been in for a while now and we've had no problems with
flimsiness or cleaning.  My opening is only 22", so your mileage may vary.

I bought the door at City Glass in Colorado Springs.  I had to special order
it for my width opening.  Try a good glass shop in your area and see what
they have to offer.  Custom doors are not much more expensive than "off the
shelf" doors like they have at the home center stores.

I also have a pivoting door without an upper bar.  Very happy with it - I think
it came from Spag's and fits our 36", so you're getting closer!

    This morning the shower water would not drain from my tub.  I think
    that the bathtub trap may be frozen.  The bathtub is in my new addition
    which doesn't have a foundation under it...its on cement piles (? hope
    you know what I mean).  The addition is well insulated underneat and 
    the floor doesn't feel that cold so I'm guessing that the water in 
    the trap is frozen.
    
    First question is HOW do I get it unfrozen?  Wait for warmer weather?
    
    Second question is WHAT preventive measure can I take in the
    future?  If it is to be a cold night, is there a anti-freeze mixture
    that I can pour into the drain?  and how much?
    
    Thanks for suggestion.
    	
    - Connie

Since the floor's warm, I think it's highly unlikely that the trap's frozen.
More likely the problem's caused by the usual culprit -- hair.

    
    I believe the name for it is heat tape.  Low voltage stuff that you
    wrap around the pipes to keep them warm.  There is also anti-freeze
    that is made for drains but I'd go with the heat tape myself.  But do 
    check the drain first for any blockage.
    

>    I believe the name for it is heat tape.  Low voltage stuff that you
>    wrap around the pipes to keep them warm.  There is also anti-freeze

Heat tape is usually regular voltage (115 V), It's low TEMP since you 
only need a little heat to get the pipe from freezing.

Since your bath is over an unheated and sounds like an unprotected
area, the trap probably did freeze considering last night's single
digit tempatures. Even thought the floor is warm and insulated,
remember that the trap dips down and then back up. The low point of
the trap probably has very little insulation around it. 

Heat tape would be a good permanent fix if frezzing is the problem,
BUT you might want to get some plumbing anti freeze for TONIGHT and 
any other cold spells between now and when you get the heat tape 
installed on the drain pipe. Sounds like a good project for the 
spring, crawling under an addition in this kind of weather is not my 
idea of FUN!

Charly

    Thanks for the suggestions.  Yes, I think in the spring I'll have to
    have heat tape put around the trap.  Until then, I'll use the anti-
    freeze.  WHERE do I buy the plumbing anti-freeze?  Will a hardware
    store carry it?
    
    Also, any suggestions for unfreezing it NOW so I can use the
    anti-freeze?  This cold spell could last a while and I could get rather
    smelly if I don't get the trap unplugged!
    
    - Connie

    And frozen traps DO CRACK!!!! I had that problem in a house that I
    bought, which was empty for 8 months and had the heat off. If you can
    get at the pipes, you might want to check for any leaks.
    
    Eric

To thaw the pipes....

- Apply heat via a Hair Dry directly to the trap. I know it's not the 
  most attractive solution in this weather.

- Try running hot water down the drain from the tub spout. It may 
  eventually melt thru the frozen section.

- Try pouring some Crystal Drain cleaner down the drain. These cleaners 
  generate heat when they work and might do the trick.

These will work better during the day or early in the evening before
the tempature plummets again. Once you get the drain clear, put some
antifreeze in the trap between uses. Hardware, Plumbing stores might
have the Anti Freeze, also camping and RV places should have it. It's
used to winterize the plumbing in summer camps. If you can't find the 
AntiFreeze right away, I would use the pre-mixed windshield washer
solution until you can get the right stuff. DO NOT use regular
automotive AntiFreeze! 

Charly

    
    I think getting under there and applying heat tape is going to be your
    best short term AND long term solution.  Hot water down the drain
    probably isn't going to be much help, unless you circulate it.  I would
    caution you against the crystal drain stuff.  If it doesn't clear the
    drain, you will have a tub with very caustic water.  I don't believe
    the heat tape is a very long or involved project.  Sure beats paying a
    plumber to come replace the drain.
    
    BTW, by "cement piles" do you mean that this addition is completely
    open underneath (similar to a deck)?

    The addition which contains my tub is open underneat...similar to a
    deck...except that it has been insulated with R30 (I think that was the
    number) then has plywood sheets nailed covering the insulation.
    
    Therefore, it is not easy to get to the trap to use a blower dryer
    or apply heat tape this time of year.  
    
    - Connie

    My bathroom is constructed pretty much the same way (but is a lot
    older).  The thermometer on the shed indicated that the outside temp
    was below zero last night and we had no problems with a clogged drain
    this morning.  I agree with the early noter who suggested it might be
    just a regular drain clog.
    
    If it is frozen you could probably try pouring some salt down the drain
    the same way you'd melt ice on your sidewalk.  Why wouldn't regular
    automotive antifreeze work?  The only problem I can see is if you leave
    antifreeze standing in the tub and your dog or cat drinks it.

>    Why wouldn't regular automotive antifreeze work?  

It definately would work to prevent the trap from freezing again but,
environmently, it's not something we should be flushing down the drain
into septic systems or public sewer systems. 

Charly

Automotive antifreeze is ethylene glycol, an alcohol.  I believe it is only
nasty to higher organisms, as it is metabolized to formaldehyde or something
similar in them, but the little critters have no problems with it.

-Mike

You didn't say if you tried plunging the tub drain.  Based on what the previous
noter said, I'd find it hard to believe it was frozen.  It wasn't very cold last
night.  If it were 20 degrees colder, I'd expect some failures, but a New
England home should be built to withstand temperatures near 0.  Especially since
this is new construction (our building inspector wouldn't let it through if it
wasn't ready for a New England winter!)

Elaine

    What good is pouring any kind of antifreeze down the drain going to do
    long term? Once you get the drain unclogged, pouring antifreeze down
    the drain will work only until you take the next shower and flush it
    away.
    
    	Re: antifreeze and animals - I have been told that reqular
    automotive antifreeze will kill cats and dogs if enough is ingested. It
    must not be too good for humans either since hardware and camper stores
    sell the "edible" kind for people that need to winterize their camps
    and campers plumbing.
    

    Not only is anti-freeze (regular auto type) bad/fatal to cats and dogs,
    but there seems to be something in it that attracts them to it.
    
    Edd

A very small amount of ethylene glycol (the primary ingredient in automotive
antifreeze) is toxic to animals.  It also tastes sweet to them, so they are
inclined to drink it.

				Steve

	    I don't think (regular) anti-freeze is good for a septic 
	system, nor the water treatment system if you have town sewerage.
	Then there are the stories of people pouring used engine oil down
	their drains (as a way of throwing it away)!  Megga ouch!  
	    The list of bad chemicals going down the drain is pretty long
	indeed.  Most of them are common household types.

					Tim

>>	    I don't think (regular) anti-freeze is good for a septic 

I kind of second this considering the last time I went to have my radiator
worked on in my pick-up, I got charged a hazardous waste charge to dispose of
the anti-freeze.

bjm

Antifreeze can be recycled, it's wasteful to throw it away. 

CdH

    Re:.18
    How?
    
    Marc H.

Try a service station, they should take it for you.

Used antifreeze is depleted of lubricants and other additives, the propylene
glycol is still effective for the most part. The recycling machines I've seen
seperate out the p.g. and add fresh additives, which is then reused as
antifreeze.

The machine is about four grand, too much for a mom and pop station but 
affordable for the quick lube type places.

CdH

    re: last few...
    
    Most times we think of big corporations as being responsible for toxic
    waste. Have you ever considered the kinds of toxic waste that *you* the
    average person generates?
    
     - used motor oil
     - paint thinners
     - drying paint fumes, oil, latex, enamels, stains, strippers
     - transmission fluid
     - brake fluid
     - airconditioner and refrigerator refrigerant fluids
     - car exhaust
     - furnace exhause
     - exhaust gasses from the electric plants that produce your
    	electricity.
     - bug sprays
     - household cleaners
     - cements and adhesives
     - antifreeze
    
    Not to mention the various bio-hazards
     - used bandaids
     - soiled diapers
     - medical waste from your trips to the doctor
     - etc...

    
    
    	YOU CAN "NOT" USE THE HEAT TAPE ON PVC PIPE !!!!
        CHECK YOUR PLUMBING FIRST, THEN READ DIRECTIONS.
        
    	You don't wan't to end up replacing the works.....
        I didn't mean to yell but the tape can get hot, especialy if the 
        tape is wrapped in tight circles around the pipe.
    
        I had the same problem in my old house, the way I fixed it was
        to use the heavy pipe insulation that was cut for the trap and 
        I used tape to hold it tight in place. after that I used even 
        more reg. insulation around the area. Maybe you can get some of
        the styrafome stuff used under siding for the outside of the 
        wood too.
    
        Check and hope for a clog and not ice this can be a pain.  
    
                                 Good Luck !
                                  John
    
                 

    I had heat tape on a PVC drain line for about 2 years with no problems.
    Why is are you issuing a "warning"??
    
    Marc H.

I just bought and installed some heat tape.  The instructions said it could
be used on PVC pipe.

    The heat tape that I used, had a simple thermostat on it. Worked fine.
    
    Marc H.

    Hi,
    	We're looking at plastic and fiberglass neo-angle showers.
    
    Can anyone here in the collective brain give me some pros and cons as
    to the fiberglass vs plastic choice?
    
    thanks,
    Ben

    
    Every time someone takes a hot shower, the steam builds up and when the
    door is opened, the alarm in the hallway goes off.  So, we've taken it
    out, which I'm not very happy doing.
    
    I guess I should have a fan/exhaust installed in the bathroom.  I'd like
    some ideas.  Installing one in the ceiling and in the window.
    
    Thank you in advance!!
    Tracy
    

	    I didn't think moisture would do that to a smoke detector.
	Try some of these...

================================================================================
Note 1111.13  Home_work keyword directory - see reply #1 for details   13 of 113
EVMS::PAULKM::WEISS "Trade freedom for security-los" 34 lines  27-OCT-1991 17:05
                                 -< BATHROOM >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Topic  Repl  Title
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    13    25  Bathroom Moisture
    63    21  Unconventional bathroom ceiling options?
   102    56  Remodeling Bathroom (info)
   446    13  Replacing Stained ceiling section
   829    14  bathroom fixtures
   886     5  medicine cabinet source? (alas, Spags' don't fit)
  1090    10  Bathroom floor drain?
  1138    56  Best way to vent a bathroom fan???
  1308    27  Renovating a bathroom
  1376     3  Rust problems in damp bathroom
  1586    70  Questions on adding a bathroom
  1592    26  Bathroom (steamy) cieling paint/prep
  1621     4  Silicone Grout-How to clean?
  1726    13  Mineral stains in our tub
  1871    34  Bathroom estimates
  1893    26  Epoxy paint for wet bathroom ceiliings?
  1953    12  advise needed - sheetrocking bathroom
  1988    17  Bathroom smells after replacing toilet
  2228    18  rotten drywall behind ceramic tile above bath tub
  2270     4  Electrical switches for a bathroom
  2363    21  Where to find Bathroom Vanities?
  2371     3  Looking for floor plan advice- bathroom.
  2374     2  Attaching mirrors to a wall
  2911     2  Fogless mirror construction
  3120     8  Source for energy efficient bathroom exhaust fan
  3125     2  Is there such a thing as a recirculating bathroom fan?
  3150     4  Nutone heater/light/vent connections?
  3536     7  Looking for Marine Paint
  3623     6  BATHROOM FAN TRIPS GND. FAULT BREAKER
  3995     4  Heat Lamp vs. heating element in bathroom
  4038     7  Cleaning old mastic and grout from tiles
  4214    12  Electrical timer in place of a switch

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

This subject is already under discussion in this file, in the topics listed in
the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your question is
already answered, or you may find a note where your question is an appropriate
continuation of the discussion.  These were found using the keyword directory
(note 1111), and you may find other notes relating to this subject by examining
the directory yourself.  Nearly all the people likely to respond use NEXT
UNSEEN, so a response to an old note will get the same exposure as a new note.

We do welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a problem that may
be under general discussion.  And moderators do make mistakes. So if after
examining these notes, you wish to continue the discussion here, send mail.

Vic [Moderator]

    	I'm remodeling a bathroom and am currently looking at shower
    controls.  I would like to leave the hot and cold as separate taps
    rather than have an external temperature control valve.  Reasoning is 
    mostly esthetic - I like the look of separate handles and all the valves 
    I've seen look cheap unless I want to spend $250 - $400 which I really
    don't.  Now, I know that to leave separate hot and cold taps in the shower
    is against code, as I'm sure someone in this file would be only too glad
    to point out :-).  I've read the previous notes about the temp control
    shower heads but that "solution" is unacceptable.  Is there any type of 
    reliable valve that can be put in line and hidden in the wall so that you 
    have the look of separate taps but actually have a valve controlled
    flow?  If not then I'll go with the regular type of valve.
    
    Thanks,
    
    George  

      You can buy a temperature control -- or pehaps emperature limiting
      -- valve seperate from the bathroom fixtures.  They can be  bought
      at  some plmbing supply houses and at some of the places that deal
      in energy efficiency. They have hot and cold inputs and a combined
      output;  there  effect  is to limit the maximum output temperature
      temperature.  We have one right on our hot  water  tank  with  the
      result  that  we do NOT need individual temperature control valves
      in each bathroom.
      
      You  could  use one of these.  Connect the output from the hot and
      cold wter valves to the respective inputs and connect  the  output
      to  the  shower  faucet.   I see no reason why this would not meet
      code, although the inspecter might need you  to  explain  what/why
      you've  done  before  approoving it.  After all, the intent of the
      code is not to requrie a single handle vs double  handle  control.
      The  intent  is  to  limit the maximum water temperature to a safe
      value.

	Hi,

	We just moved into our house and already, we hate the showers.
	The water pressure is fine, however, the shower is extremely
	loud.  We believe that all the noise is coming from the shower
	head.  Both bathrooms have the same type of shower head and 
	both are extremely loud.  This noise is not like clanging...
	it is a loud, steady hum that is quite obnoxious at 6AM.
	The house is 1-1/2 years old.

	Question: does it sound like the shower head needs replacing
	or might there be some other problem.  FYI, the sinks and
	toilets do not make these loud noises, just the showers.  The
	noise sounds like it is coming from the shower head.  What
	could be making this happen?

	Karen

    Hmm.  I guess I would take one of the shower heads off then turn on the
    water and see if you still have the noise.
    
    Chris D.

    Probably a water saver shower head.  The one we have made the shower
    considerably noisier after we put it on then the old standard head that
    was replaced.  Something to do with the air that's mixed in to make it
    a stronger spray (or at least that sounds good)....
    
    Steve

    Had the same problem as Steve.  And it seemed the more
    you try to turn up the water pressure, the higher the
    pitch of the humm.
    
    JD

    re:12
    
    We use "Eliminate" from Home Depot on our shower doors and fiberglass
    tubs and we feel it is by far the best so far.  To each his own....
    
    Loraine
    223-3606

Got the quote on using Swanstone for a 6' by 3' shower.  $3K for the
marble look, including installation.  I think we'll stick with tile
(unless someone believes that this is an outrageous price and that we
can do better).  The price we got for a 6' Corian countertop with
integral Corian sinks seems quite reasonable ($773; if you subtract
$200 for the two sinks, then $573/6 comes out to $95/foot.), so I don't
think they're trying to gouge us on the shower.

  Gary

    
    	re:.10
    
    	It's the only cleaner I've found to "easily" remove 
    	Manganese stains from my fiberglass tub. Spray on,
    	leave overnight, rinse clean. No harm, no scrub.
                                             

re:.18
    
>    	re:.10
>    
>    	It's the only cleaner I've found to "easily" remove 
>    	Manganese stains from my fiberglass tub. Spray on,
>    	leave overnight, rinse clean. No harm, no scrub.


Is there the name to "It's"?  Reply .10 just says its the "stuff Home Depot sold
when they first opened". I have iron and manganese stains on my fiberglass tub
and if this works I'd like to get some.

							Mark

I've seen the product Home Depot sells, I forget the name, but it comes in
quart bottles for about $5 and is supposed to be "Environmentally safe".

Masi Plumbing in Nashua sells a "Mr. Masi" cleaner which I think is similar,
and when I tried it the other day, I was amazed at how good a job it did of
removing scum from a tub.  Right now, they are having a "buy one, get one
free" sale, the price is $5/quart.

			Steve

    A lot late, but another Symmons headache.
    The handle was stuck onto the stem.  WD40 didn't
    help.  I saw the handle puller *after* I snapped
    the stem with the handle attached.
    
    The replacement cartridge was about $35 and the 
    handle (plastic, not metal) was $5.  The plastic
    handle isn't supposed to get stuck from the build-up.
    
    Gary

    
    
    A friend of mine is at odds with this situation.
    
    How would you go about removing an old, 2-pc fiberglass shower 
    stall from a finished home with minimal damage?  The area will 
    become a closet (not another shower).
    
      He has questions like: 
    
                     can you cut it into pcs with snips or sawsall?
                   
                     will dust from sawing be harmful to breath?
    
                     
    
    don
    
                      

From my experience, there is almost no way you are going to remove a
shower without making some damage.  Yes, I would think you could cut
it up with a sawsall.  I would wear a filter mask when doing it, and
if at all possible do it outside (if done inside, put plastic over the
door to the room, to keep the dust in the room where you are working.

Ed..

    It should be easy to cut; even a circular saw with a junk
    blade.   But, wear long sleeves.  The dust is quite
    irritating to skin.

    I just installed clear glass shower doors and I can't find anything
    to clean the soap scum off the glass. This might seem crazy but I've
    tried water with ammonia,glass plus,409 and laquer thinner. Has
    anyone had this problem???  What do you clean with????
    
    Thanks, Joe

    You need an akaline cleaner to do a good job; home supply and some
    plumbing stores sell a "tub and tile cleaner" that works well.  In
    grocery stores, try "Tough Act"; my wife says this works the best,
    though I find it rather weak.
    
    			Steve

    
    I HAD the same problem for years,..I'd let the shower and doors go too
    long without cleaning and before i knew it the whole thing looked like
    a big bar of soap!..The only way I've found to get built up soap off
    was to get one of those sponges with the scotchbrite on the back of
    it and take the doors off and spray them down with some type of cleaner
    (doesn't much matter which one) and then you have to scrub good and
    hard, wipe them off and do it again till they're clean..big pain in the
    butt!..but once your done i've found an extremely easy way to keep the
    doors and the shower itself from getting like that again. I purchased a
    small, cheap squeegy (sp?) and after each use i take the squeegy and
    just run down the shower walls and the doors to get all the water off
    of them..takes about a minute but it sure does make for a nice looking
    shower and doors..mine have absolutely no soap residue on them anymore.
    works great! much easier than having to jump into the stall with sponge
    and cleaner all the time and scrub!
    
    

    X-14 works too, especially if left on overnight.  If you want them to
    stay clean for months afterwards, treat the doors with Rain-X a
    commercial product for car windscreens.  It prevents the scum from
    depositing on the glass.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

    After you have the doors clean rub some baby oil on the inside. 
    They'll stay clean a lot longer and doesn't require much work.
    
    Cal

    Hi,
    
    As a preventive measure, I use a 'shower squeegee' (purchased at
    Placewares, I think about $6.00) after each shower.    I rarely
    need to clean my shower doors as a result...
    
    Priscilla
    

    Thanks for the tips I guess I better get to work.

    RE:.5
    
    Cal you use that baby oil for a lot of things don't ya?
    
    Joe

    For real crusty layers, one of those scrapers that
    holds a single-edge razor blade is great. (The thing
    you use to remove paint from window glass.)
    	Dick
    

    We had the same problem. Our shower doors are about 5 years or so old
    and over time they got worse and worse. We tried everything but to no
    avail. Two weeks ago my wife and I were at Deerfield fair, and one
    of these demo folk had a car wax - pure carnuba wax, which when used
    to clean his car would prevent even beading of water, in fact it just
    rolled off. He claimed it would work on shower doors. Well, we paid the
    $7 to find out. IT WORKED. It took a little elbow grease, but it did
    indeed seem to "disolve" the buildup. The stff is orderable from
    someplace in Florida for about $7 for a can about 1 pt. size. If anyone
    wants I can look up the address and provide it. 
    
    Incidentally, I tried it on my car, and yes indeed with 2 to 3 coats
    the water just runs off, the surface cannot sustain ANY water beads at
    all. Maybe any car wax with carnuba in it would work, I haven't tried.
    This stuff is powder, claimed to be 100% carnuba wax.
    
    Anyway, it worked
    
    Tony
    

>>                      <<< Note 4753.10 by AKOCOA::BRYAN >>>
>>                          -< Carnuba WAX will do it >-

Pure Carnuba car war can be purchased at almost any auto supply store.
There are many brands.  It doesn't contain any cleaners so I'm surprised
that it cleaned your shower doors.  It is recommended on fiberglass 
showers/tubs to make cleaning easier.

Garry

    We are having new enclosures put in our shower and the salesman
    suggested we clean our grout and ceramic tiles/glass doors with
    a product from Color Tile called Grout Cleaner (I think). He also
    suggested sealing the grout with Color Tile's Acrylic Sealer.
    
    He then recommended applying a coat or two of boat wax. I found
    some at our local (Calif) hardware store for about $12.00.
    
    Good luck,
    Jodi-

  My problem is not with a fiberglass shower but with a fiberglass tub.

   Ordinarily you would use plumbers putty when screwing the drain piece
  on the top side into the drain itself. Plumbers putty should not be used
  on fiberglass (it apparently won't stick and the drain will leak).

   What would you use to prevent leakage?


    - Bob

    > (it apparently won't stick and the drain will leak).
    
    After 5 years mine has yet to leak.
    
    I don't think sticking is a major concern. The plumber's putty seems to
    just fill the voids between tub and drain top. Since the space between
    them is minimal, the putty just gets squashed down and squished out.
    Whatever is left doesn't seem to have any place to go.
    
    Edd

    Mine does leak and when checking the plumbers putty can it says don't
   use it on fiberglass.......so are there any alternatives?

    - Bob

    I, too, used plumbers' putty in that application and have not had any
    leaks in over 10 years.  I would not have used it if there had been a
    comment on the container saying not to use on fiberglas, so I wonder if
    you should try for a different brand of plumbers putty.  No?
    
    Dave

    Silicone sealant?
    

  
   If a sealant was used it would have to be capable of being used underwater.

    There's a product called Plumbers Goop that it used to fix aquariums, etc
   but it doesn't mention use on fiberglass.

  
     - Bob

    
    I've always used the putty.  I find that the silicone doesn't stick
    well to metal.  What seems to work well is to rough up the surface
    of the fibreglass (where the putty comes in contact with it) with a bit
    of wet & dry.
    
    The main problem with these fibreglass installations is flexing at the
    joint.  I've found there's two ways to lessen this:
    
    	don't secure the outlet pipe to a wall or floor in close proximity
        to the outlet seal.  A bit of play allows the pipe to move with the
        bath/shower & takes the strain off the seal.  (One of those rubber
        connectors does the job very well)
    
    	wedge a block of solid high-density eps foam under the installation,
        close to the outlet.  This takes the weight and also reduces the
        flexing.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

Plumbers still use the putty on fiberglass tubs and showers also....No leaks

    
    **NOTE** Moderator: Sorry if this discussed elsewhere but it's a timing
                          thing and I did not do a "Dir/title".
    
    
    I am having a probelm with getting hot water in the shower.  No matter
    if I turn it down low and let it run slowly or open it full bore I am
    still (an getting sick of) taking cold or at very best slightly warm
    showers.
    
    1. Heating system is oil/forced hot water/ tankless hot water.
    2. There is NO other source of hot water running at shower time
    3. It's not time dependent, as this can happen morning or night
    4. Occassionaly it will happen with faucets in bathroom, NOT so much
       kitchen
    
    Any and ALL information would be greatly appreciated before I go wild
    with a plumber and needless $$$.$$
    
    Thanks in advance!
    
    Bob Montville

    a SWAG,
    	are you in Mass and have a pressure compensating valve?
    Maybe misadjusted!
    
    	Dave.

I had the same problem when I moved into my new house with tankless system
with oil FHW.  I  spoke to a plumber who thought a valve replacement might
do the trick.  When he came over to get the part number, he found that
adjusting and cleaning was needed.  Prior to that the showers were
completely unacceptable.  Could not steam the mirrors!!!  After the
adjustment, showers were great for a few weeks.  Now they are good-to-great
about 70% of the time.  I'm thinking of calling him back.  I've been
using the "trick" the previous owners told me about with moderate 
success -- turn the thermostat up about 5 minutes prior to taking a
shower to get the boiler running hot.   I can't imagine how this trick
helps in the summer.  

If the performance keeps declining as it has been, I'm ready to consider
other alternatives (valve replacement?  auxiliary storage? electric [gasp!]
tank)

	I have a house with tankless hot-water off of an oil furnace.
	There is only hot water when the furnace is cranking.  In the
	winter we turn the heat up a few degrees, in the summer we turn
	the furnace off and then on again. (It doesn't appear to matter
	what the thermostat says, when the furnace first comes on it heats
	the water).  If you don't use the hot water, it cools off.  I didn't
	know that there was an alternative other than getting a seperate
	water heater.  What is this valve you are talking about?
		Linda

We have a tankless oil fired boiler. An energy saving system was installed
long before we bought the house. One of the components is a timer switch 
installed in the kitchen which turns on the oil burner. In the non heating
months this is a good energy saver, but you have to wait 10 to 15 min for
the water to be hot enough for a shower. In the winter of course, the burner
is also controlled by the thermostats. One thing I've noticed is that if
the heating water circulating pumps come on while you're in the shower, the
water cools down pretty fast (expected, since the heating loop water is
now sucking heat out of the boiler.) Even once the burner comes on, it doesn't
seem to heat the water fast enough. So what we do is to turn the thermostat
down to keep the circulators from coming on while we're in the shower ( the
separate switch keeps the oil burner firing).
Without a separate switch for the burner, you might try the trick of turning
the thermostat up for about 15 minutes, then turning it back down so the water
stops circulating.

    RE: .1 & .2
    
    Maybe I wasn't clear enough and someone who knows how it works can 
    comment.  But what I meant was, that shower (mixing) valves in Mass. (as
    required by current code) do some sort of pressure compensation
    to prevent scalding in case of pressure change (you know the classic
    turn the cold water on the sink...)   The adjustment of this valve 
    can control the temperature of the shower.
    
    I only mention this as I recently had my HW heater replaced and the
    plumber insisted on testing the temp. at each shower and adjusting the
    mix.  A screw underneath the faceplate.
    
    	Dave.

    RE: .0
    
    There can also be a heat sensitive valve at the burner which will alter
    the mix of hot/cold water being fed to the hot water pipes.  If you
    have a lot of minerals in your water (as I do) this valve can corrode
    and stick usually in the high mix mode.
    
    Dan

   Oil fired FHW 101:

    In a closed forced hot water system, the burner is turned on and off by an
AQUASTAT (monitors the temperature of the water in the water jacket of the
furnace) and the circulator (the pump that forces the hot water thru the pipes 
to heat the house) is controlled by the THERMOSTAT (monitors the temperature of
the air in the house). 

    By turning up the thermostat you are forcing the circulator to send water
through the heater pipes which will eventually cool the water enough to trip
the aquastat which then in turn ignites the burner.

    The aquastat, mixer and control box are usually located on the furnace.
The temperature of the water for the domestic hotwater is controlled by mixing
water which has been heated (by having it flow through the heat exchanger in the
furnace) with cold water to arrive a temperature people can handle.

    On the system I had there was a temperature gauge on the furnace that told
me the temp of the water in the closed system.  This was usually between
180 deg and 210 deg.  This means that without the mixer the water at my shower
head could be near 200 deg (allowing for cooling in the 25' of copper pipe it
ran through to reach the bathroom.)  The mixer was used to cool the water to
about 120 deg or so.  I had to replace this mixer unit once and it was getting
flaky again before I sold the house.

    A couple questions: 

	Is the shower the farthest spigot from the furnace?

	How old is the plumbing in the house?

	How much water do you get delivered at the shower when only the hot 
		water is turned on?  Do you have deposits built up which are
		significantly restricting the hot water flow?

	Do you have HOT hot water at the furnace? (from the basement find your
		bathroom and by touching the pipes, follow the hot pipe back to
		the furnace.  When you find where the hot pipe goes into the
		furnace, there should be 2 pipes entering here, one is the hot
		water leaving (the one you just followed from the shower) and 
		the other pipe should be relatively cold (the one bringing cold 
		water in for mixing). You may or may not be able to see where
		the hot water actually enters the mixer from the furnace, and
		if you could see it you wouldn't want to touch it 'cause it's 
		very very HOT!!!

If for some reason you have real hot water at the furnace, but have cool water
in the shower, it's possible (although improbable) you are losing all that heat
through the copper pipes as they run through a cold cellar or cold exterior
walls, in which case you might consider insulating the hot water line to the
bathroom with the foam pipe insulation.

Good luck,

Al

re .0:

>    **NOTE** Moderator: Sorry if this discussed elsewhere but it's a timing
>                          thing and I did not do a "Dir/title".

I just spent about 60 seconds using 1111.* to track down note 4178, which
seems to address your problem.

There's never a need to do Dir/title in HOME_WORK.    

    Check note 1898
    

    Here's my shower curtain problem.  Even though the shower curtain has
    three magnets attached to it, the curtain still billows when the shower
    is turned on.  Are there any other solutions to this problem?
    
    Regards,
    	    JAM

>    Here's my shower curtain problem.  Even though the shower curtain has
>    three magnets attached to it, the curtain still billows when the shower
>    is turned on.  Are there any other solutions to this problem?
 
	    Colder showers and less water flow would reduce how much
	your shower curtain billows.  I've heard of two theories and/or
	reasons for this phenomenon.
	    One is that the hot water heats the air inside the shower
	causing it to expand (thin) and rise.  The rising warmed air
	creates a vacuum.  The cooler bathroom air comes billowing in
	to compensate, because "Nature abhors a vacuum."
	    The other theory is that the cascading water droplets trap
	air molecules as they fall.  This also creates a vacuum (see
	above).
	    Most folks don't like cold showers so you might consider
	investing in a low flow shower head.  My shower curtains don't
	billow and I do like to steam the mirror.  At the very least,
	you'll save yourself a couple dollars every month.

					Tim

    
    
    Try wetting the inside of the tub and then put the shower curtain
    back....that should make it stick.
    
    

    Leave the thing open an inch or so at the far end of the tub, away from
    the shower head.  Then the air will come in there instead of
    everywhere, and won't plaster the shower curtain against you as you
    take your shower.
    
    Even better, do what I did: have a door installed instead - you never
    have to try to clean a mildewy shower curtain again!
    
    /Charlotte

I installed a shower door.  You still have to clean it but you don't start
your day with an intimate relationship with cold clammy curtain.

Stan

    Guess what!  AT my wife's insistence (she can have a strong will about
    the darndest thins) I removed the doors and installed a shower curtain. 
    She says that cleaning the bathtub with doors on is much harder.  As
    cleaning the bathroom is the one chore I have managed to avoid
    completely in my eleven years of marriage, I was more that willing to
    comply rather than assume a new duty.
    
    Regards,
    	    JAM
    
    ps.  Thanks for the inputs so far!

regarding mildewy shower curtains:

We just put ours into the washing machine.  They come out like new!

-Chris

    We don't have a billowing problem, but I don't know whether it might be
    because we have a seperate curtain and liner, or because I usually have
    a towel parked on the far end of the rod, so the curtain is open a few
    inches (as a previous reply recommended).
    
    Dick

    Suggest two possibilities:
    On your furnace there will be a mixing valve, which is intended to mix
    the VERY hot water from the heater in the firebox with normal cold
    water, producing the hot water at a reasonably safe temperature. You
    might try adjusting this valve to increase the amount of hot water
    going into yor mix.
    A second possibility, if you have 'normal New England hard water', and
    your furnace is 7-10 years old, is that the coils in the furnace have
    closed up and will no longer pass a sufficient quantity of water.
    Options are twofold - an acid wash to eat out the build-up, or replace
    the coil, or install a new hot water system. Besty symptom of this
    latter problem is very low water pressure when the hot water only is
    turned on at a faucet or other outlet.

    interesting discussion.
    
    I have a low flow shower head and like to steam the mirror a
     bit myself don't like the billowing shower curtain tho. I leave
    about an 1" or 2 open at the far end, wet the stall and stick the
    curtain to it andhave to extra magnets that I use to hold the thing
    still. These extra magnets are in addition to the three in there.
    It still trys to billow but it is held fairly securely so it can't.
    My wife doesn't use the extra magnets and it seems the first first
    thing I see is the shape of her legs when shes showering cuz the 
    curtains wrapped around them...( not a bad thing for me but it must 
    be annoying for her) My parents used to have one of those long flexible
    strip magnets found in Fridge doors and that worked very well.
    
    
            Dean

         I've only lived in one place where the shower curtain comes
	 billowing in.  I really don't think it has as much to do 
	 with temperature as is suggested in this note.  In fact,
	 the place that I lived in where this happened was the warmest
	 place... didn't have to pay for heat.  I'm not sure, but I
	 think it has to do with airflow.  In this particular bathroom,
	 there was a large space under the door.  My other bathrooms 
	 have been more airtight.   

	 However, I did notice that if I remained directly under the
	 stream of water then it didn't happen as much.  Two people
	 in the shower works pretty well too....
	 
	 Try experimenting with airflow.... using the bathroom fan
	 versus not using it, blocking the space under the door,
	 and so on... opening a window (well, maybe not in the winter...)

	 Karen         

    I'm looking for suggestions for shower door manufactures 
    (i.e. Martin Shower Doors, Work Right, etc.)
    and recommended glass styles.

    We would like to find a product that offers: 
    - 'Easy clean' (open track) style frame
    -  Frameless glass doors
    -  Stylish (i.e. curved instead of flat face) chrome finish frame

    We want glass that is obscured but don't want the standard that 
    most homes come with.  Easy cleanability is a must.  

    Our shower requires two in-line sliding doors  
    and a stationary panel. 

    Thanks,
    Jodi-

    
    I have a problem that has my head spinning trying to figure out the
    cause of the water leak.  I have an all tile shower and have had
    water leaking thru the ceiling below, underneath the shower.  I was
    actually getting drips. I then examined all of the grout near the
    bottom of the shower and did find some places where the grout needed
    to be replaced.  I did that but am still getting wet spots on the wood
    floor beneath the shower (no drips anymore).  But it's still wet.
    I did then notice a real fine hairline crack on the shower floor. 
    Could this be the problem?  I was told by various people that there 
    is a pan underneath the cement floor in the shower, so that shouldn't
    be the problem.  I was thinking that there could possibly be a leak
    on the shower valve in the wall, or the pipes, but then I was told that
    if that was the case, then water should be dripping down the pipe.  I
    see no sign of this.  There also is no sign of water leaking around the
    drain pipe, as I can see from downstairs below the shower.
    
    This is really stumping me.  Has anyone ever run into this or have any
    other suggestions?  I did try putting a liquid type cement in the
    hairline crack.  The crack actually looks like a surface type crack.
    Another recommendation was to throughly clean the cement floor and
    apply a coat of wax to the floor?  I game to try anything........
    Thanks in advance for all input/suggestions.....
    
    Ron
    MRO1   

You could have a leak in the pan, and the water could be coming from a
valve or pipe or almost anywhere.  This happened to me.  I had to tear
the whole shower out.

				Steve

    
    
    re:.1
    
    Steve,
    
         Did you ever find out exactly what your problem was?  You
         mentioned that you had to tear out the whole shower, are you
         referring to just the base/pan?  Or did you start from scratch?
         Did you stick with a tiled shower or go with a fiberglass unit.
    
    
    thanks,
    ron

    We had leaks through cracks in the grout, around the drain and even
    some in the feed pipes.  (I won't talk about the steam shower that
    the previous owner put in, where the feed connection to it dripped
    steadily, soaking the Homasote to which the ceiling tiles below
    were nailed.)  We rarely used this shower - I discovered the
    problem when my brother was visiting and used the shower, and I
    happened to be in the basement below, only to discover a veritable
    stream of water since I had recently taken down the ceiling in that
    area.
    
    What we did was rip the whole thing out and put in a fiberglass
    tub with surround (4-1/2 feet, though we're kicking ourselves now
    for not taking the extra six inches of closet and making it a
    5-footer.)  Another possibility in such cases is to install a
    fiberglass or acrylic shower stall.
    
    Tile shower floors are attractive (until they mildew), but they're
    not very reliable, especially when old.
    
    				Steve

    How to find where it is leaking from -
    
    Use some object to completely seal the floor drain.
    
    Then manually fill the shower pan - DO NOT USE the shower valve to
    	fill.  Bring in water by bucket or hose.  This will rule out the
    	the shower valve/piping/head as the source of the leak.
    
    Let water sit - and look around for water leakage - if you get leakage
    (most likely will) then the shower pan has a leak.
    
    Most shower pans were made of lead folded up on the sides and then
    filled with cement for the tile.
    
    You may not want to hear this - but if the leak is in the pan the
    fix is to rip it up and start again or the cover mentioned in 
    previous note sounds like an interesting idea.
    
    The above is how I found a leak in the pan.
    
    /Howard
    

    
    I went through all the steps; tearing out the outer walls to check for
    leaks, tearing up the tiles to check the pan, replacing the inner walls
    under the tile, etc. and the problems continued.
    
    By the process of eliminination, I realized that the doorway area was
    the only possibility left.  The step under the door was hollow and very
    moist when I opened it up. I filled the entire area stuffing full of the
    best waterproof caulk I could find, and have had no problem for a few
    years now.
    
    I believe the weight of people stepping on the under-shower-door area
    caused the grout to develop weaknesses.  Water ran down the door mounts
    on each side and down the door into the (hollow) step. Check to see if
    this might be true in your case.
    
    Clark 
                                    

My experience was that water was running like a river through the ceiling below 
my tub and for the life of me I couldn't see a crack in the grout.  It turned
out that the crack was definitely there, along the seal between the tub and
the wall.  It was aggravated by standing in the tub and closed up when not 
standing in the tub...which made it difficult to locate while inspecting 
if I wasn't standing in the tub.

I learned that if there's a minute crack, water will find it and it will flow
very quickly.  A hairline crack can cause a relative flood.

Re grout and use a rubberized sealer...ie, DAP....along the horizontal joint
between the tub and tile.

Jim

re .7

>Re grout and use a rubberized sealer...ie, DAP....along the horizontal joint
>between the tub and tile.


One trick someone taught me in the past was that whenever caulking between the
tub and tile use a rubberized sealer and fill the tub before caulking.  This way
the tub will move away from the tile and the caulk will fill the widest joint
that will occur.  When the tub is empty the caulking will compress and you
should get a good watertight seal.

    
    thanks to all for the input and suggestions....
    
    ron

    My sliding shower door unit has a leak.  Water appears to be working
    its way under the bottom track of the door frame.  When I installed the
    unit a few months ago I applied 3 beads of caulking.  One under the
    track itself and one on each side of the track.  It did not leak for a
    while, but that did not last long.
    
    Is there something I can do besides applying more caulk?
    
    Thanks, Mark

    I had the same problem.  I pulled mine apart and found a spot where I
    did not caulk so well.  It's not fun but I don't think you have much choice.
    
    Wayne
    

    The shower control (push/pull control that diverts water from tub to
    shower) came shooting out the other day. Water, now only comes out of
    this hole, however if I put it back in without spring and jury rig it
    to stay in place with tape, string, etc, I can temporarily get shower
    to work.
    
    Question is, is it possible to fix this or replace this control or do
    I have to replace whole faucet? This is a Delta single control faucet.
    
    Ray

    You should be able to get a replacement diverter at Home Depot type 
    place.  We had to do the exact same thing about 2 weeks ago.  
    
    Must be the humid muggy weather!
    
    carol
    

    
    re: -< replacement diverter >-     Must be the humid muggy weather!
    
    You might be on to something, as of late, when I push in the button
    for the shower it's been making a gurgling sound before coming out
    the shower. It never did it before and only happens intermittenly
    lately.

	My shower just started leaking at a slow drip -- yesterday...

	Roy

    My diverter has been hard to move in and out for a few years now. Guess
    the spring was weak and constantly pulling on it broke the small
    fingers on the backend. Thanks for the tip. I'll check some of the
    large stores this weekend and see if there is a fix for my faucet.
    
    Ray

I am the mist of redoing my shower stall.  It's the old fashion type
with a copper pan and ceramic tiles.   Should the "durarock" and tiles
go on top of the cement floor or go into the copper pan. The shower was
constructed with tiles and durack going into the copper pan (figure 2)


                   figure 1                            +--- ceramic tiles
                                                       |
                                                       |  +--- durarock
                                                       |  | 
              $  |  |                                 |v |v $
              $  |  |                                 |  |  $ <-- copper pan
              $  |  |                                 |  |  $
              $  |  |                                 |  |  $
              $-------------------+      +------------------$
              $         cemet     |      |                  $
              $         floor     |      |                  $
              $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$|      $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
                                  |      |                  
                                  |      |
                                   drain  
                                  

                   figure 2                            +--- ceramic tiles
                                                       |
                                                       |  +--- durarock
                                                       |  |
              $  |  |                                 |v |v $
              $  |  |                                 |  |  $ <-- copper pan
              $  |  |                                 |  |  $
              $  |  |                                 |  |  $
              $  |  |-------------+      +------------|  |  $
              $  |  |  cemet      |      |            |  |  $
              $  |  |  floor      |      |            |  |  $
              $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$|      $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
                                  |      |		    
                                  |      |
                                   drain  
                                  
    

    
      I'd do it as in figure 1. The critical part is that the durarock go
    inside the pan.
    
    				Kenny

    I currently have a tub/shower with 3 different knobs.  2 for hot and
    cold water and one in the middle which changes the water from tub to
    shower.
    
    Yesterday when I went to turn the shower on, the knob just kept
    spinning and wouldn't change the water to shower.  I tightened the
    screw, but the only change I noticed was the knob was more difficult
    to turn, but it still just keeps turning (it spins in both directions).
    
    Can anyone give me a suggestion as to some things to try?  Please try
    not to be too technical as you'll lose me.  I'd like to try to fix 
    this one myself if at all possible.  I've already had a plumber out 
    2 times over the past 2 weeks fixing other things.
    
    Thanks,
    Michele

    
    Loosen the screw you tightened in the center. 
    
    Remove the knob and determine which has the splines left.
    If the inside of the knob is smooth, take it to your local
    hardware store.  They should have one to replace it.
    
    If the stem has been smoothened out and you have a wrench
    large enough to remove the plug it passes thru, it should
    be easy enough to remove and, again, show it to the clerk
    at the harware store.
    
    Fred

If you determine that the Knob itself still has the
splines in it and it is the stem that has been smoothed
out you can remove the entire assembly with a large 
(about 1") enough wrench.  Don't forget to shut off the
water at the bathroom or other shutoff since it will
probably leak a little past the Hot/Cold water seals if
they are in the same shape as the center control.  

If the center control is hard to turn its probably
a good idea to take the stem out anyway and go get
new seals from the hardware store.  THese are real cheap
and can save you gridf later.

Wayne

PS - what you want to avoid is having the water drip...
behind the wall after you take the stem out.

    
    With a "three valve" setup, the hot and cold valves shut off
    the water to the diverter.
    
    F.

THe reason for shutting off main water supply is that if the center control is 
in poor shape chances are the hot/cold shutoff valves will leak a little.  If this
happens with the stem out water will drip behind the wall.

Wayne

    Thanks, I'll try that...it looks like the stem itself is worn down, so
    I'll have to shut the water off and remove the stem.  
    
    If I don't reply to this in a couple of days, assume I didn't figure it
    out and have been washed away by the water....8') 8') 8')
    
    Michele

You can buy a replacement diverter valve at most hardware stores.  It's
a simple repair, if you have the proper wrench to remove the old one.

				Steve

Most showers have a thread pipe coming out and the shower head
itself is a female joint which screws into the pipe.

Commerical showers have the reverse - the shower head itself is male
and screws into this "thing". 

Where can I find a male shower head?

Gim

    
    Re .27:
    
    You can replace a male shower head with a female shower head and a
    nipple (where nipple is a very short piece of threaded steel pipe -- 
    usually all thread; see plumbing supply in any decent hardwar store
    store). Covering the entire nipple with teflon tape will ease
    installation and hide any exposed thread.
    

    
    
    Spag's might have everything you need.....
    
    

    I'M ENTERING THIS NOTE HERE BECAUSE I COULDNT FIND ANY SHOWER NOTE 
    DIRECTED TO MY SPECIFIC PROBLEM, BUT THIS IS A SHOWER RELATED NOTE...
    
    I HAVE A SHOWER WITH A WINDOW IN IT.  THE HOUSE WAS BUILT IN 1966 AND
    I DON'T THINK THE SHOWER HEAD WAS THERE ORIGINALLY.  THE WINDOW IS 
    PAINTED WOOD WITH CURTAINS ON IT.  THE BATHROOM WAS RE-MODELED IN 1992
    (WE PURCHASED IN MAY 93) AND IT LOOKS VERY NICE BUT I'M NOT SURE HOW 
    WE CAN USE THE SHOWER.  I'M AFRAID OF MILDEW, WOOD ROT.... I'M SURE
    WE DON'T HAVE THE ONLY SHOWER AROUND WITH A WINDOW IN IT BUT I'M 
    STUMPED FOR A FIX.
    
    ANY ADVICE WILL BE APPRECIATED.
    
    STEVE
    ANGLIN::SVOSS

    Mine has a window, too - floor plan obviously designed by someone who
    doesn't clean their own house!  What I do is buy a shower curtain to
    use as a curtain on that window, turn the top over and hem a pocket it
    it (with sewing machine) and cut the bottom off.  This completely
    protects the window's wooden frame, and I haven't had any problems with
    that (lived there since 1976).  On the other hand, the "curtain" is a
    pain in the neck to clean since it mildews.  It's even worse than a
    normal shower curtain since the back side of it is up against the tub
    enclosure and the window and so doesn't dry off.  Every year or so I
    give up on trying to clean it, or it falls apart when I do, and I make
    a new one.  Sometimes you can get bathroom curtains that are plastic,
    and I used to do this, but then I would end up sewing velcro on them to
    fasten them together to keep them closed, so I decided that no one ever
    really wanted to open the curtains on that window anyhow.
    
    /Charlotte  
              

    When I had by bathroom done over, all the workmen wanted to remove the
    window.  I left it in.  I put in a venetian blind, lower it to below the
    window sill, close the blind and shower.  After my shower I use a
    sponge to wipe down the blind and then open it.  I don't pull it back
    up again until it's dry.
    
    I was going to buy a plastic window curtain but couldn't find one when
    I wanted it.  My folks and grandparents always had a matching set of
    window curtain and shower curtain.  They just closed the curtain while
    they showered.
    
    Karen
    

    
    
    I purchased a house in August and at the time the owner told me that
    I would have to caulk the edge of the tub/wall about every 2-3 months
    or it would seep through and stain the ceiling below.  
    
    Well, I didnt head his warning and now my living room ceiling has a
    small water stain on it.  I will be able to paint it but my question
    is how can I stop this from happening without having to constantly 
    caulk every 2-3 months.
    
    Any suggestions?
    
    thanks
    
    MikeR
    

    RE: .0
    
    Tub Surround.
    
    Marc H.

    Or a one piece tub/enclosure, even better.
    
    I had to caulk every few months. I didn't. Think how pleased I was
    when I had to replace the bathroom floor. No, not the vinyl. The entire
    floor right down to the joists.
    
    Caulking, even with a full tub, just never worked.
    
    Edd

    
    
    re .1  
    
    
    What is tub surround?
    
    

    
    Looks like you might have a problem with you tub walls.   A common
    set up is a tub with a shower.  Most have plastic or tile walls around
    the tub.  In your case, it should like time has taken it toll on
    the "surround" walls.  The moisture is causing the calking to move
    away and let water in.  
    
    The sell kits with come in 1 to 3 sections you can install to repair
    the damage.  If its an old unit.  You might want to consider install
    a one piece tub/walls made of fiberglass.   No more seams to leak!
    
    In any case, you have to fix the damage and the problem...
    
    JD

    I just replaced the head on my Alson's pulse shower.  Every single
    shower head I saw was a "water-saver", meaning it will only put out 2.5
    gallons a minute, no matter how hard I push it.  I don't want to save
    water.  I want to take a good shower and pay for all the water I use.
    Is there some gasket or other in the Alson's that I can take out to
    eliminate this unwanted feature?  Is there some underground source of
    plumbing supplies that will sell me a good shower head, uncrippled by
    "ecology marketing" techniques?
    

Some showerheads do have a flow-restricting washer that can be removed (the
WaterPik Shower Massage brand used to, at least), but many localities are
requiring showerheads that cannot have the flow restriction defeated.

There are many good showerheads that give you a satisfying shower at low
flow.  I never heard of Alson's.

But if you're determined, you can find a Speakman head that should let you
waste all the water you want; it'll cost you, though.

				Steve

    
    I just installed the water-pik, and it does give a good flow with the
    flow restrictor installed. IMHO.  However, my wife isn't happy unless
    she's pinned against the side of the cubicle by a few hundred pounds of
    water pressure, so I took out the restrictor.
    
    C

    As far as I know, Alson's was the originator of the throb-o-shower,
    a/k/a shower massage.
    
    I will look for a washer with a small hole in it.
    

Tom, don't be a wimp and rely on pressure from the water mains.  Take a look
at the pressure washers in the Northern Hydraulics catalog.

    
    ....How about the steam cleaner at 3000psi....!:)
    
    

    I looked inside last night.  Yep, there's a nylon washer in the throat 
    of this thing with a teeny hole in it.  I'm drilling it out tonight.  
    

It'll be easy for the cops to find you -- you'll be plastered against the
back wall of the shower.

 An problem I had with a new shower head, (sorry, can't remember the 
plumber installed brand), even after taking out the flow restrictor washer was 
the hole for the water passage was still quite small. Less than 1/4" diameter.

 I removed the spray head and chucked the fixture up in the lathe and drilled 
out the hole to a 7/16" diam. and now I can actually get wet when taking a 
shower. :-)

 A vise and a hand drill should work as well as a lathe if you open up the 
hole in several stages. My fixture is brass under the chrome plating so it 
cut like butter.

    Mine has a passage about 1/2-inch square with a nylon plug with an
    undersized 1/8-inch hole in it.  I clamped it in the vise and drilled
    it out with a spade bit and then went upstairs for a glorious
    water-fun-park experience.
    

    I'm sure these things are sold with unrestricted flow elsewhere in the
    world.
    

    spags!!!
    
    

I have a similar problem to .0
I spent sme time taking off the top screw and prying off the fawcet handle which
seemed to stuck on.
Now I see a flat assembly which I tightened just a tad. Returned fawcet handle
and the situation is no better. The interesting thing is that the fawcet seems
to have a mind of its own and decide how much hot water it will deliver. So it
is normal to start with flow of water that dies to a trickle with no action on
my part. The handle also leaks when water is switched on and flowing through the
fawcet.
Any ideas?
Thanks,
Vijay

Replace the valve core.  It's simple and fairly cheap. It's best if you
remove the core (unscrew it) and take it with you to the hardware store
to match against the replacement.  Replace both hot and cold while you're
at it.

				Steve

Thanks for the instant reply. I just need to know one thing. Can I safely assume
that the valve core is all the junk in the fawcet handle part? Or is it a 
sub-assembly thereof.
Sorry to sound like a novice plumber, but I really am one.
Vijay

When you remove the handle, you'll see what looks like a big hex nut.
If you unscrew this, you've got the valve core.  If you're unsure, go to
a hardware store and look at sample replacements.

Replacement cores are in the neighborhood of $10, varying somewhat by
size.  Tub faucet cores are bigger.

				STeve

RE: <<< Note 4175.2 by SSGV01::MURTHY >>>
    

 And don't forget to turn off the water to the fixture before removing the 
core.

 :-)

Oh, one more thing.  It's often the case that the valve is recessed in the
wall (behind tiles, etc.) so you can't get a regular wrench on the nut.
Hardware stores sell a set of special wrenches for faucets; they're typically
a set of six or so tubes with hex-shaped ends in different sizes and a
bar to use as a lever for turning them. Sort of like REALLY deep sockets.
They're cheap and work well.

Another handy tool is a faucet handle puller, for when the handle doesn't
come off easily when you remove the screw.  I don't recommend banging on
the handle with a hammer.

					Steve

    I've got a question and hope anyone can help, since most of you seem 
    like you've "been there, done that", and it's following the jist of the
    conversation.

    It's a Symmons Temptrol, about 4 years old, and we're getting a cooler
    flow of water, especially in the tub.  The shower is only slightly cool,
    but by turning it on full blast, it gets plenty warm/hot.  (My wife, 
    however, likes it even hotter.)  The tub, on the other hand, starts with a
    hot flow, but cools down almost immediately.  When we give the kids a bath,
    the water is almost cool.  (I remember baths as a kid when I needed 2 
    minutes to get in the tub, the water was so hot.)

    The furnace is 6 years old, tankless, and plenty of hot water flows out.  
    I've checked the pipes while the tub is filling, and the pipe is very 
    warm.  We also get plenty of hot water out of our "normal" 2-valve faucets,
    both upstairs and down, as well as the dishwasher.

    So, I've pretty much narrowed it down to the Temptrol.  After removing the
    handle, there's a kind of set-screw at 12:00.  I've backed that off, 
    turned it in, backed it off again, etc.  If I back it off, it _seems_ to 
    get better: it may only be my imagination.  The handle itself sits inside 
    a big hex nut.  Is that the "nut" I take off to try to fix the mixing 
    valve?


                       x -----set screw
                     _____
                    /     \
                    !  o  !    (o = handle)
                    \     / 
                     ----- \
                            \   
                          Hex Nut?

    Thanx for any advice.

    Gene
    

I believe the setscrew adjusts how far towards "Hot" you can turn the
knob.

You may have some "crud" inside the valve that is preventing the pressure-
compensating piston from sliding freely.  I believe that you can remove the
core of the valve by unscrewing the big nut, but I've never done this
with a Temptrol.

If you're going to attack this, I'd recommend first going by a store that
carries the Temptrol valve and looking at the instructions packed in the 
box, so that you're familiar with what it looks like.  It's not as simple
as a standard valve.

You may also want to look at other notes listed in 1111.79, such as 
3223 and 4294.

					Steve

    re .7
    
    Steve, 
    
>Another handy tool is a faucet handle puller, for when the handle doesn't
>come off easily when you remove the screw.  I don't recommend banging on
    
    Where would you get one of these tools?  I've never seen one(although I
    didn't know that one existed so wasn't looking).  I have exactly the
    problem that you mention and need to replace a degrading washer.
    
    Thanks.
    
    John

Any decent hardware store will have it, along with other plumbing tools.  It
looks sort of like this:




      |                /-------------\
      |               /               |
      |===============+=============
      |               \               |
      |                \-------------/

The center rod is threaded, the two "claws" swivel in and out but are attached
to the threaded rod.  You place it so that the claws grasp the faucet and the
end of the threaded rod (which usually has a pin of some sort) goes into or
onto where the screw came out.  Turn the T-bar and the claws gently pull the
handle off of the stem.  Saves incredible frustration and is kind to the
faucet as well.

					Steve

    Thanks Steve.... very similar to a bicycle crank arm extractor.
    
    I'll look for it next time up at HD!
    
    -John

    The flow restrictor gives me better water pressure, out of the shower
    head, than when it is out...

    
    That'll be "velocity", not "pressure".
    
    Like your garden hose, take the nozzle off and water will
    maybe go 8" out then head down, with a rate of (let's say)
    1 gallon per minute with 45 psig enterring the hose.
    
    Put the nozzle on, restrict the discharge and the stream
    will go 20 feet out but at (let's say) .5 gallons per minute.
    
    What I'm illustrating is the fact that you are reducing 
    volume but increasing velocity.
    
    Fred
    

    My shower, drilled out as it is, gets me *wet*.
    

    I need to *remove* the doors on my mom's bathtub/shower.  They have
    been on the tub for ~20 years.  It is your basic late-40's tub, about
    20" deep, porcelain, etc.  The surround is tile. 
    
    Any help?  Suggestions?  I do not really want to have to take out all
    the tiling!
    
    Thank you,
    
    E Grace Noonan

    I assume (possibly in error!) the following:
    
    The doors themselves can be lifted up, the rollers unhooked from the
    track, and the doors taken out.
    
    The top track will lift up and come off the frame sides.
    
    The frame sides are held onto the walls with screws; take out the
    	screws, and the frame sides will come off the walls, possibly
        with a bit of persuation to get the caulking loose.
    
    The bottom frame will lift off the tub, once you take off the sides;
    	caulking may make it not want to come off, but it should pry up.
    
    At least, that's how the three sets of shower doors I've installed went
    together, as best I can remember.  No guarantees that the ones you
    have to take out will work the same way, or that my memory is 100% 
    accurate....

    You're kidding!  That's it?!  
    
    Thank heavens!  I was a mere child when they were installed, so I had
    no idea of *how* they were installed!  
    
    Thank you.  I will let you know how it works.
    
    
    Do you know, not *one* of the bathroom remodeling books I looked at
    told you how to *remove* the darn things?
    
    E

    Thank you!  It was *easy*, and I got it done in about 15 minutes.  Even
    getting the old caulking off hasn't been too bad a job.  Mom is going
    to be so surprised and happy!
    
    
    E Grace

    
    My apologies if this has already been addressed in an earlier
    note, but I could find nothing doing title searches.
    
    We are updating a bathroom in our 77-year old house and have
    decided to put in a 48" wide shower unit, a one-piece molded
    unit with a seat on one side (some units have two small seats
    on opposite sides).
    
    Most of the suppliers we have contacted are pushing fiberglas
    units. Someone I know just put an acrylic shower unit in his
    updated bathroom.
    
    Acrylic units cost about twice as much as the fiberglas and 
    I was hoping someone seeing this note could provide some insight
    on the advantages of using an acrylic unit over a fiberglas one.
    The guy who opted for acrylic mentioned that acrylic is shinier,
    but I can't recall what else he said.
    
    Is an acrylic unit worth the difference? A fiberglas unit can
    run from a low of about $280 at HQ (which looked cheap) to about
    $400 at Colonial or Goulet in Manchester. An acrylic unit was
    about $700 from Goulet, and this unit was enclosed on top.
    
    All replies will be appreciated. 

>    $400 at Colonial or Goulet in Manchester. An acrylic unit was
>    about $700 from Goulet, and this unit was enclosed on top.


I think the price difference may have a lot to do with the fact that the unit is 
enclosed at the top.

I have a Fiberglas unit that's enclosed at the top and it, too, was quite a bit
more expensive than the rest of the line.  (Don't ask me how much 'cause I 
don't have that info handy but the difference was very noticeable  --  and 
I got it wholesale from the plumbing supply house I worked at in the early 
'60s)

    The acrylic wears much better (allegedly).  The color goes all the
    way through, it's not just a gelcoat on top.  It's supposed to be
    more durable.
    
    (Whatever you get, be *sure* you follow the directions about setting
    it in a bed of plaster to form a solid support for the bottom.)

    We have a fiberglass unit in one bathroom and an acrylic in the
    other - and the acrylic is much stronger and more solid feeling
    than the fiberglass one.  The fiberglass unit is about 12 years
    old and the color is wearing in a few spots.  The acrylic unit is
    6 years old, and has a couple of small scratches that allow me to attest
    to the fact tht the color goes all the way thru.  Typically the acrylic
    units have molded tops (1 piece) and this has a lot to do with the
    strength (as opposed to our non-topped fiberglass unit).  The cost
    was about double, but the top, strength, and color and shine convinced
    my wife its what she wanted.
    
    Just my $.02
    
    andy
    

Perhaps my brain is playing tricks on me, but I'd swear that I once saw
in here a discussion of how to clean the mineral deposits, etc., from
shower heads.  Now that I actually need to do so, I can't seem to find
the discussion that I thought I remembered.

Can anyone either:

    1. Point me to the above-mentioned discussion (assuming it actually
       exists).

or

    2. Give me advice as to how to remove the deposits from shower heads
       (the ones that obstruct some of the holes).

-Hal

    When I visit my mother's house, where the water is really hard, I have
    to clean out the shower head in the guest bathroom with a hatpin if I
    want to take a shower in there - calcium city!  She actually has a
    water softener, but connected only to the washing machine 9the hard
    water is tough on cotton clothing) because no one could stand the taste
    of the "softened" (salty) water.
    
    /Charlotte

    Soaking in vinegar is the typical method to remove scale. 
    
    				Steve

	CLR (product brand name) is a Calcium and Lime remover.  Can buy
	it just about anywhere.

					Tim

    .2 is right - soak it in vinegar!  Buy cheap white vinegar, fill a
    baggie with it and tie it around the shower head - this way you don't
    even have to remove the shower head.  Leave it over night, if the
    deposits are bad.  (When I moved into my new house, I had to do this
    four times before I could shower!!  Good thing there was a tub!)
    
    
    Susan

    My last house had fiberglass and after 4 years they were dull in color.
    
    My current house of 7 years has acrylic and still shinney. To make you 
    feel a little bit better about the cost. Figure out over a period of
    15 or 20 years how much more you will be paying for something that
    should will look good.
    

    I just went through an incredible hassle with a leaking drain for an
    acrylic shower unit.  I'll outline my experiences here, in case it's
    of help to anybody else.
    
    We installed the shower stall this past spring.  A plumber connected
    the drain.  First time we take a shower, it leaks.  The shower floor
    was flexing and opening a gap around the drain flange.  Figuring that
    I'd take more care with fixing it than somebody called back to fix
    a problem, I went to work on it.  
    
    First, I cut a couple of 4" diameter access holes up through the
    3/4" plywood subfloor under the shower stall and checked for plaster
    bedding (which was specified in the shower stall's installation
    instructions).  There wasn't much, so I mixed up some mortar and,
    with rubber gloves on, packed it in under the shower.  That noticably
    stiffened up the shower floor.  I took out the drain, recaulked 
    around the edge with the type of caulking specified by the shower
    stall manufacturer, and reinstalled it.  Success!...for about a week.  
    Then it started to leak again.
    Then I tried blue silicone gasket maker.  That worked, but then I
    had a leak in the threaded joint so I had to take it apart to fix
    that.  And when I put it back together, the threaded joint didn't
    leak but now it leaked around the (new) blue silicone.  
    Looking at the way it went together, it seemed to me there was a
    basic flaw in the design.  The shower stall around where the drain
    goes through slopes down at an angle of 25 degrees (I measured it).
    The flange on the drain, however, is flat on top and bottom,
    so the flange was making only line contact around its outside edge
    with the bottom of the shower stall.  Making a line-contact joint
    watertight seemed to me to be inherently a hard thing to do.
    
    To help with that, I made a tapered washer from a piece of 
    polypropylene plastic I had from another project: 4.13" outside
    diameter, 3.15" inside diameter, .219" thick at its thickest inside
    section tapering to 0 at the outside edge.  I put that in between
    the drain flange and the shower stall to fill the space and give
    a chance for broad surface contact.  I gooped that up with some
    (allegedly) hi-performance super-flex caulking I got at the lumber
    yard and put it all together.  So far, no leaks.  I think it's
    really fixed this time.  I hope.
    
    I don't know if tapered washers of that size are available commercially
    or not.  You'd probably have to check a big plumbing supply place to
    find out.  I don't know if it's possible to buy a drain of that size
    with the flange tapered on the underside or not; I know you can buy
    smaller sizes with a tapered flange, but I don't know about larger ones.
    
    Anyway...if you're going to install a plastic (or fiberglass) shower
    stall,
    
    1. BE SURE to have a rock-solid subfloor.
    2. BE SURE to embed the shower in a solid bed or plaster, with no gaps.
    3. See if you can get a drain piece with a taper to match the taper of
       the bottom of the shower around the drain hole, or get a tapered
       washer, or something, so you aren't trying to make a line-contact
       joint watertight.
    4. Use some kind of high-performance caulking that will stick to the
       shower stall, and the drain, and have some flex.  I don't recall
       the name of the stuff I finally used; I just looked over the display
       at the lumber yard and picked a one that claimed it was for extreme 
       and high flex.  It should also have an anti-fungus additive.
    5. Be lucky.
    

    Would the vinegar do any damange to chrome shower heads?  I have
    a shower head that desperately needs cleaning, but the exterior 
    is all chrome and I would hate to have it pit.

    Thanks, 
    Leslie

    I've never had a problem with soaking chrome pieces in vinegar.  
    (Of course, your mileage may vary....)

re: .5

>    Would the vinegar do any damange to chrome shower heads?  I have
>    a shower head that desperately needs cleaning, but the exterior 
>    is all chrome and I would hate to have it pit.

I just tried the vinegar-in-a-bat treatment on the advice of .2 and .4
and it worked wonderfully.  Special thanks to .4 for the baggie-full-of-
vinegar trick.  Heck of a lot easier than removing the shower head! :-)

-Hal

    You're welcome!!  I got it out of a "women's magazine" (maybe it was
    one of Heloise's hints) and have used it ever since.  In my apartment,
    the showerhead was all chrome, and the vinegar did not pit it at all.
    
    
    Susan

    I've looked thru the notes that I could find on shower enclosures and
    did not find any mention of sheets of fiberglass or plastic.  I had to
    rebuild a bathroom that has an oddly shaped shower stall and could not
    use a prefab.  It is about half below ground and has a setback about
    four feet above the floor and a window about six inches above that. 
    I had to rebuild under severe time constraints and could only find
    sheets of the thin layer of coating over masonite variety.  I knew they
    wouldn't hold up for too long and they've had a couple of problems over 
    the three years they've been in.
        What I'm slowly getting around to is that I'd like to find sheets
    of fiberglas, plastic, or some other permanently waterproof material
    that a. comes in standard size sheets (4x8, preferably) and b. does not
    cost an arm and a leg like the countertop material or the stone
    composite stuff.  Doesn't the plastic that Abitibi or something like
    that come in plain 4x8 sheets?    Thanks,  Rich

    Look into Swanstone - I think it comes it sheets and is considerably
    cheaper than Corian and the like.
    
    					Steve

    I'll check into that, but that was an alternative that came up when I
    was doing the crash project and, as I recall, it was still pretty
    expensive.  I'll have to see if prices have improved.  Thanks, Rich

     I am installing a shower in the basement of my house and need
    advice on the proper trap/drain to use. Since I won't have access
    to the trap clean-out(it'll be buried in the floor), can I just
    use a P-trap with no clean-out plug instead of the usual "barrel style"
    trap used on tubs and showers?
    
    Bob 

    Well.  I have 2 small spots in my fiberglass shower that need repair.
    
    If I paid a pro at each occurance I would be out $200 already...
    
    And with kids, the chips could continue @ 2/year easily...
                                          
    Anyways, spot # 1 is a small chip about 1/2" long x 1/4".  Spot # 2 is
    a small hole/crack about 1/2" round.  It appears to be the surface of
    an air pocket under the glass.  Not sure how big the total pocket is at
    this time.
    
    I was thinking of using automotive bondo on both of these spots, fill
    them in, sand and smooth, and touch up with a small artist paint brush.
    Color is white.
    
    Can anyone suggest some alternative cheap do it yourself solutions.
    I will check out the hardware stores to see what kits they have to
    offer.  
    
    Thanks, Mark

    Mark,
    
    There are a number of kits that are used by boaters to do similar
    repairs.  The Evercoat fibreglass "match 'n patch" repair kit
    is one.  For $12.99 you get a complete chip repair kit including
    pigments.  Order No 1002-1426 from E&B marine 1-800-533-5007.
    
    Another useful material is Marine-tex plastic metal which can be
    mixed with Evercoat pigments to get a color match.  That's about
    $10 for a 1lb can and two pigment tubes.   Order no. 1007-2676
    for the marine-tex and you'll have to ask about the pigments.
    
    Colin
    
    

    Colin,
    
    Thanks for the pointer.  Happen to have an E&B catalog in my office.
    Lots of different products available.
    
    I decided to write to the manufacturer about the one chip with the air
    pocket behind it.  Seems like a defect to me.
    
    Maybe they will come out and fix it...  Thanks, Mark

    
.16> I decided to write to the manufacturer about the one chip with the air
.16> pocket behind it.  Seems like a defect to me.
    
    Do you us a non-slip bath mat?
    
    With little suction cups on the bottom?
    

    No bath mat.  The crack/hole is not on the floor of the tub.  It is in 
    the front corner about 2" up the corner.
    
    Mark

    
    Bath mats with little suction cups have been know to pull the glazing
    layer up from the fiber substrate, creating little 1/2" bubbles. I
    was wondering if this could be the problem in your case. The location
    of the fault (along with the fact that you don't use such a mat :-)
    argues against this cause.
    

    
    The shower valve in my bathroom (delta, I think) has been having an 
    intermittent problem with leaking at a fitting on the hot side. There
    is another one just like it on the cold side. I tighten the fitting 
    (fortunately there is an access panel that allows me to do this from a
    bedroom closet) and the leak stops. After a few months the leak starts up 
    again. I think it is from the expansion and contraction from the hot water 
    that is causing the fitting to loosen over time. Is there anything I can 
    put on the threads to get it to stop loosening/leaking every few months? Or
    should I get the whole valve replaced?  What's this fitting for anyway? 
    
    The first time I tightened it it was a real bear to get at, they had
    the fitting pushed right  up against the drywall. I had to dig through
    some of the drywall (and some wood) to be able to get a wrench around
    the fitting.  
                                                                

I found an answer finally to my own question.  For anybody else who might need
4x8 sheets of truly permanently waterproof material, fiberglass of the type used
in shower enclosures is available.  I did not see this when I did the original
job, but it would have helped a lot.  I'm going to rebuild this weirdly shaped
shower using the fiberglass sheets so it will be more permanent.  The sheets
run from $25-30, so it's a lot more reasonable than the Swanstone, which is
$200 per oddly shaped sheet.  I think they were 2x6 or something like that.
Maybe this will help one of you avoid using that supposedly waterproof paneling
that starts to disintegrate in a short while.  The fiberglass costs about twice
as much, but it's easily worth it.                     Rich

    I've got a one piece fiberglass tub/shower unit with sliding glass 
    shower doors on it.  I'd like to remove it and use a regular shower 
    curtain.  If I were to do this, how can I remove the grout?  And 
    what would I use to plug the holes that have been drilled in the 
    tub/shower?  Can this be done in a way that it looks good?  
    
    Thanks,
    Karen.

Did you look at note 2795?

    Yes, I checked out note 2795 and it didn't have much information on
    removing doors from fiberglass tubs.  The one person who didn't have
    much trouble mentioned porcelain as the material.  I also tried
    keywords BATHROOM-SINKS&TUBS (no notes) and BATHROOM (none that looked
    relevant).
    
    Thanks,
    Karen.

Funny, I thought 2795 was a topic on shower doors, with a sub-topic on removing
shower doors.

:-(

Elaine

    Just found another related note (should have known keywords wouldn't
    be on everything!) but they had a porcelain tub also.  This was note
    5305.  Hers turned out to be very easy to remove.  Is it that simple
    for a fiberglass tub?  If so, I still need to patch the remaining 
    holes in the unit, and wonder whether fiberglass will hold up as well
    to scraping as porcelain.  I would imagine it would scratch easily.
    
    Thanks,
    Karen.

    	A plastic filler will work at filling the holes (i.e. Bondo), and you 
    may be able to find a touch-up paint for tubs that matches.
    
    	As far as the grout is concerned, I'm not sure. You may want to try
    removing the rails and see if the grout will pull away from the tub. If
    you're lucky, the grout may not have bonded that well to the tub itself.
    
    	Ray

    
    I'm stumped...  I've got a Moen shower faucet and had been experiencing
    severely reduced hot water flow.  I opened up the valve the other day
    (with no instructions to go by), removed the retaining clip and then
    the cir-clip behind that.  Pulled out what I thought was the cartridge,
    took it to the hardware store and couldn't find a match.  Asked a clerk
    for assistance and he told me: you only got part of it out.  Then
    he showed me what the whole cartridge looks like.  So, I bought it and
    took it home.
    
    Read the instructions that came with the new cartridge.  Now I know
    that the part I removed (call it the stem, I guess) should be in the
    cartridge body.  Back in the shower, I manage to mangle the remainder
    of the cartridge, still in the faucet body, so that the cir-clip won't
    stay in place.  With the cir-clip out, there's nothing to keep the stem
    in the cartridge body.  This isn't working...  Back to the store --
    clerk shows me a cartridge-removing tool -- I bought it.
    
    Reading the instructions for the new tool tells me that it's useless
    unless the stem is still part of the cartridge.  Of course, since the
    cir-clip won't hold the stem anymore, this is useless.
    
    Now I'm pretty
    desperate...  The cartridge body turns within the faucet body, but just
    barely because the O-rings are doing a real good job of holding the
    cartridge body in place.  Various Rube-Goldberg attempts (nipple
    extractors, combinations of heat & cold) to pull the the body out
    haven't worked.
    
    Fortunately, I can put the stem back in and use the retaining clip to
    hold the mess together.  And we have another shower.  But there's got
    to be some way to get that old cartridge body out of the fauce without
    replacing the whole faucet, with all of the masonry destruction & torch
    work that goes with that.  Anyone got any ideas???
    
    cartridge out have failed
    

>    desperate...  The cartridge body turns within the faucet body, but just
>    barely because the O-rings are doing a real good job of holding the
>    cartridge body in place.  Various Rube-Goldberg attempts (nipple

I replaced a Moen kitchen faucet cartridge awhile ago.  I think the shower ones
are similar.

Sounds like my situation was similar to yours, in that the thing just didn't
appear to want to come out.  My problem was in those O-rings, especially the
one(s) at the bottom of the cartridge: they had rolled out of their groove(s)
and were squeezed between the cartridge and the faucet body, jamming the
cartridge as I was trying to pull the thing out.  Of course I couldn't see this
happening, but it was clear once I got the thing out.

What I did was to twist the cartridge in the faucet body as the instructions
said, using the little plastic tool, and then grabbed the stem with big
channel-lock pliers and just tugged and tugged with sharp jerky tugs.
Eventually it popped out.  I nearly smashed myself in the face with the
channel-locks when it did pop out!

You might want to confirm this too.  Ask at a plumbing supply place where they
might be more likely to know about Moens.  I had to ask about this at the place
where I got my replacement cartridge when I initially found that the cartridge
didn't just slide right out as the instructions said.

I don't know if you can get a good grip on the cartridge itself since you can't
secure your stem inside it, but I think this is basically what you need to do.
If you do this, be real careful when it finally lets go!  You might either smash
yourself like I nearly did, or fall backwards and crack your head on the back
wall of your tub.

-Chris

    
    Thanks, Chris -- I've already had a couple of close calls with this
    thing.  Unfortunately, I just can't get a good enough grip on the
    cartridge body to pull it out.
    
    I guess what I need is some magical chemical compound that will
    dissolve the O rings without destroying the faucet body.  Or some kind
    of tool that can expand once it's inserted...
    
    Any ideas?
    

    I guess what I need is some magical chemical compound that will
    dissolve the O rings without destroying the faucet body.  Or some kind

	   Rubbing (Isopropyl) alcohol might loosen things up for you.    
	It's cheap and pretty safe and you might already have some at
	home.

					tim

    a squirt of liquid nitrogen and a tap ftom am impact wrench :-)
    

    
>	   Rubbing (Isopropyl) alcohol might loosen things up for you.    
>	It's cheap and pretty safe and you might already have some at
>	home.
    
    Might have some alcohol at home???  What have you heard?  Actually, we
    have a lot more alcohol than liquid Nitrogen, so I'll give that a try
    first...
    
    

Dry ice will make stuff pretty cold, and it's readily available.  Look in the
yellow pages under Dry Ice.

    I thought my valve was leaking.  I took off the shower head and water
    came pouring out and then stopped.  After a bit of head scratching,
    I think the dripping from the shower head is from water trapped inside
    the pipe after the shower is turned off.  This is a shower only, so
    there is no diverter that releases the trapped water.
    
    This is a bit annoying as it will drip for hours (I didn't think there
    was that much water!?).
    
    Is there any way to duplicate the way a combo shower/tub valve drains
    the pipe?

I've got what appears to be a fiberglass shower base with hairline cracks around
the drain, which seems to be the cause of some water leaking around the shower. 
It appears that the base of the shower was never properly supported when it was
installed (I just bought the house, so I don't know when/who installed it).  You
can feel the base move when you walk on it.  The shower is in the basement of a
split-entry house, so it's on concrete.

My home inspector found this, and mentioned that the base of the shower could be
filled with an epoxy or some other material to fill up the gap, and, possibly,
to seal any cracks.  Has anyone ever heard of this process?  Had it done?  Did
it help?  Any idea who does this sort of work ... contractors, plumbers?


Any help would be appreciated,

Rob

    You're doomed. :-)
    
    Seriously, if the shower base isn't properly supported I doubt you'll
    ever get a permanent fix.  The shower base moves, the drainpipe
    doesn't, a crack opens up, and it leaks.  I spent most of two summers
    trying to stop the leak around an improperly supported plastic shower
    stall drain.  The thing that finally did it (I hope!!!) was to cut the
    drain pipe and put in a rubber sleeve so the drain could flex along
    with the base of the shower.  Then I gooped up the drain/base joint
    with caulking,  with the sole aim being watertighness, appearance be
    damned.  So far it seems to be working.  I had the advantage of access
    to the bottom of the shower though, and it sounds as though you don't.
    

We had a Lasco(sp?) fiberglass tub that cracked in our last house.
It was only a couple years old so the plumber that installed it
contacted Lasco. They sent a guy out who locked himself in our
bathroom for 2 days ! He cut out the bottom of the tub, added
support, then put in a new bottom.
Very dusty work but you could not tell it was done. It was still
under warranty so no cost to us but I'd bet it's expensive.

Randy
    

    Another question please.
    
    Last year I took down the shower doors.  The stock in X14 cleaner
    dropped to zero.  I single handedly was keeping them in business.
    
    I put up my favorite Victorian Shower Curtain but using a spring loaded
    Shower Rod.  Even with tightening that sucker as absolutely as tight as
    it can get, it periodically falls.  I then have to call the tall
    neighbor to come over to put it back up. 
    
    I suspect that the moisture from running the shower makes the wall 
    slippery and that causes the rod to slip.
    
    Does anyone have any suggestions on how to better afix that spring 
    load rod to the walls?
    
    Thanks 
    
    Adriane

    
    Get a set of white plastic clothes rod brackets; they're two disks
    with shallow cups that normally hold up a clothes rod in a closet.
    Stanley makes them; available at better hardware stores.
    Screw them to the wall where the shower rod normally goes, insert the
    shower rod, and tell you tall neighbor you won't be bothering him
    anymore (at least for *that* favor).

    A couple months back I was doing some plumbing work in the basement and
    I turned off the line to the master bath.  The next day, I turned on
    the shower and there was no cold water... went down to the basement and
    turned it back on... back upstairs and the cold/hot mixture came on for
    a second... then no cold.  Not being able to get to it... we've used
    the main bath.
    
    TOnight however we ran into a problem w/ the main bath water mix.  If 
    I turn the water knob quickly, the cold begins to come out,.. then there 
    is a loud clunk and only hot.  If I go real slow, it sometimes mixes
    fine,... then the cold starts to shut off by itself and only get very
    hot water.  I'd say it's a problem w/ the mixing valve, but never
    having replaced one, I'm not sure if the valve itself can be replaced,...
    or does something else have to be done.
    
    Make is TEMPTROL.
    
    
    Actually, just did some more testing of it.  If I turn the know 3/4 of
    the way around(about the correct mix for a shower), the hot and cold
    stay on.  When I start to turn it slowely clockwise/off you can hear
    the cold valve shut off abruptly at about 1/3 of the way from off.
    
    Please advise.  Thank you
    
    John

    take the front plate off. i think there is some type of bleeder
    valve/screw you need to adjust/fiddle with.
    Ive done this to get the shower hotter, but never heard of it
    being a problem with "all hot"... if your doing plumbing work
    this should not be hard, since all you need is a screwdriver...
    
    let us know what you find. (its been a while since ive been inside
    one of those valves)...
    
    jim

    My brother just replace his and he showed me the inside of a valve that
    was five years old.  It was completely gummed up.  I'm suprised it
    worked at all.  They're not expensive.
    
    Chris

.578    Thanks Jim... I'll give that a shot.  
    
        I just hope I can get the knob/handle off!  I tried a long time ago(to
        change a washer) but was unsuccessful. (Now we just put up w/ a very
        slow drip)
    
.579    Thanks Chris.  Replace "it".  What's it?  Just the valve or the
        entire control unit?  (trying to avoid sweating pipes!)
    
    
  
    
        John
    

    last week we had that problem, except in the whole house.
    It turns out the mixing valve off the furnace was bad.
    Took 10 minutes to solder it into the system.
    Evidently the hard water in NH really gums them up. I
    had my cousin replace it. Cost about $18.
    
    Now we have hot showers again.
    -- dick

John,
Dick's reply is it in a nutshell regarding mixing valve, time and price.

The only "problem" my brother ran into was that the new valve config was
slightly different - requiring an extra piece of pipe and a 90 to hook it up.


/Chris

    I just cleaned my Symmons valve, all you have to do is soak it in
    vinegar and then shake it to test that the works are moving. If you
    do not feel the plunger inside moving, you can buy a new stem for ~ $25.
    As far as the handle, that can be a problem. Try taping it back and
    forth that should loosen it. When you replace it, use waterproof
    plumbers grease to keep it from getting stuck. The problem for me ended
    up being the mixing valve at the boiler.
    
    						Bob... 
    
     

    For what it's worth --
    We had the same problem with our Symmons Temptrol (no more hot water).
    My husband bought a new "innards" kit at the local hw store (Apple
    Meadow in Townsend) for about $3.50. It was just the gaskets and
    stuff, not a stem, but it had a good diagram of how everything
    works. The hw store guy recommended boiling the stem in vinegar
    to get rid of the foreign matter. Works great now. 
    Sue