Conference 7.286::home_work

Well, you've pretty much got the idea.  Go rent a good sander AND a good 
edger (a sander that can get within 1/4" of the edge).  Get all the old
crud off but don't sand any more than you have to (particularly if
it's pine).  Then clean up by vaccuuming and wiping with a tack cloth
(don't wash).  Now lay down at least three coats of polyurethane.
I suggest the semigloss; the high gloss will make it look like a
gym floor.  Each coat has to dry at least 24 hours, preferably longer.

A word of caution:  Buy a good vapor-filtering breathing mask for all
this work.

- Paul Anagnostopoulos

If you're really into it, take off the baseboards first so you can get
right up to the edge. While you're at it, replace them afterwards. 

For long term maintenance, I suggest NEVER waxing the floor, but do give it
a light sanding (the kind you have to do between coats of varnish, don't
use the sander for that!) and put down a fresh coat of varnish. Do this
every year to 18 months depending on wear. If you ever wax it and then want
to re-varnish, you have to do the whole snading job again. And after your
first, you won't want to repeat it.

BTW, for those of you thinking of installing a hardwood floor from 
scratch, get your floor custom made by New England Hardwood supply
in Littleton Ma. They mill planks 6-12' in length and 5" wide and it's
wonderful! And it's easier to install than the usual small stuff you get
from Slummerville lumber (2-3' x 2.25").

	Jerry

Could you get an address and/or phone # for NE hardwood supply?  Thanks

re: .0 

Once I 'refinished' a hardwood floor. I was in a hurry. So I used a very
coarse sandpaper initially. Midway through the sanding on a hot day, the
phone rang.

Well, I didn;t know what was happening. But I learned. Later I was told
that even some of the BEst Experts do not use very coarse paper. Its better
to use the finest that will do the job, because a power sander marks
also need to be removed. "Coarse" makes gouges, that need to be fine finished
anyway.

If someone else fails to mention it, sanding is sort of like
spray painting, in that the belt should should be started before contacting
the floor, and stopped after removing from the floor.

This way you ought to minimize 'digs'(?) into the floor. (ruts ?).

Random thoughts:

Some time back in the Old House Journal, a craftsman pointed out that
refinishing an old floor by sanding yielded a "new floor made out of old
wood."  He recommended doing whatever was possible to preserve as much of
the current floor finish.

It's my understanding that polyurethane is fine for finishing furniture
but is a poor choice for floors.  The problem is that polyurethane is hard
and brittle.  These properties cause the finish to chip off in high traffic
areas.  Other finishes (like tung oil) are better for floors.  We just
refinished pine floors in our upstairs and downstairs halls using a lovely
floor finish from a company called Livos.  (I'll add more details after
consulting with my wife.)

If you do decide to sand your floors, BE CAREFUL.  It's amazingly easy for
an amateur to severely damage an old floor, especially a pine floor.  We
hired a friend to refinish our hall floors.  The old finish (clearly
polyurethane from the ugly wear patterns) had to be completely removed.
Rather than sanding, he used a conventional straight-edge scraper (with a
burnished edge).  This technique was almost as fast as sanding, produced
very little dust, eliminated the danger of sanding, and produced a beautiful
result.  I highly recommend scraping over sanding, at least on pine floors.

-- Ward

re: 2.5

One of the handyman magazines recently had an article on how to pick a
contractor for refinishing your floors.  The guy they used for a reference also
said that polyurethane wasn't the best finish.  When it wears or chips, you have
to strip the whole floor, rather than just patch it.  Seems like you just
can't beat some of the old tried and true techniques and materials.

-joet

I must concur with .5 and .6 on polyurethane not being the best for a finish
on floors.  I have read where it is to be avoided at all costs because it
is necessary to strip it completely before you can do any refinishing.  A
good quality varnish can't be beat.  Polyurethane is good for providing a
water resistant finish on furniture tops, but not for floors.

Bruce Bretschneider

         Am i to assume that finishes such as "watco oil finish for floors"
would be a good choice? and has anyone used an oil finish before?

Wow, I've never heard so many horror stories about polyurethane.  I've 
never used the stuff, so I can't say one way or the other.  Someone else 
here suggested that acrylic-based coverings are a good idea to.

I certainly agree that sanding softwood, like pine, is to be avoided.

- Paul

Re .3  I don't have the address handy but they're in information for
Littleton, Ma. Ask to talk to Brett.

Re the rest, I've had a lot of traffic on my polyurethane and it holds up just
fine. I think the older urethanes (>3yr) weren't too good, but the new stuff
seems fine so far. I'll keep you posted...

	Jerry

I have sanded a number of floors (pine and oak) and the secret is taking
your time and using the proper grade of sandpaper (belts really). 

I have always used a good quality poly and have patched using poly and do
not agree with you guys. My work has turned out very well, thank you. 

Beware !! there are different qualities of poly around. Talk to your local
refinishers. They will give you the name of good brands. Just be prepared
to pay for the stuff because it isn't cheap. 
                                                                         
I just don't understand the problem. Most professionals I have spoken to
regarding floors have all used poly. 

Now scraping is certainly a good way to go if the floors are in good shape
and all you want to do is replace the finish. I don't want to spend 2 years
scraping a floor which is in bad condition. 

                                             
Merle

One little caution: be sure on a pine floor you have sub-flooring!
Sand away 1/8 or 1/4 with no sub-flooring and you have a very thin
floor left!

Cyn

You've hit upon a point of interest for me with the floors.

We had our kitchen done over last year. My wife insisted on Oak hardwood
floors. I cringed, but we had been going round and round for a couple
of years over how to do the kitchen. I finally said; I give up, when you
decide what you want - GET IT!

She got it and its beautiful including the floors.

The floor guy used something that had a reference to water cured poly-
urethane in its name.

It is holding up damn good considering the amount of traffic our kitchen
gets, its the typical center of activity in our house (I think it has
something to do with food and teenage boys).

Anyway I have no complaints about the durability of the finish. Its just
that now the rest of the floors look like sh_t, so I'll either be doing 
them myself or shelling out the bucks to have them done.

-Bob

I have forced hot water baseboards, can the EDGER fit under these ? They 
extend out about 3/4 to 1 inch.

					Robert

P.S. This is a great file for us homeowners..Thanks for starting it.

Depends on the clearance. For the most part on edges you will need to do
some scrapping to get a good job (unless you remove the baseboard, which
was mentioned earlier). 

Merle 

I would like to make a suggestion for new hardwood floors... we built 
a house over the last 3 years, and put in mostly hardwood floors. Using 
the standard size oak strips, I put 3 rows around the perimeter of each
room, mitering the corners. The regular rows went inside this 'box'.
I sorted all the smallest pieces according to size, and then hammered away.
When I got to the last piece of a row, I went to my presorted pile to 
choose an exact fit piece if possible. I positioned the last piece
randomly in the row. I stained almost black the innermost perimeter row
that went around the room, then poly'd the rest... the result is a
nice border around the room to accent the room... goes especially nice
with area rugs.

Dave L

Nice touch Dave. A bit of extra work but well worth the results

Merle

Re .14. You can take off the front covering of your baseboard heaters and
expose the fins underneath. You'll be able to get the edger at least an inch
in behind where your baseboard cover will be. While you can't sand all the
way back, don't worry. It'll never be seen. Just brush the varnish all the
way in so the total surface is protected. While the covers are off, it's
a great chance to really clean the heater fins...

	Jerry

I have just made a compbination spa cover/traffic carrying floor (deck extension
if you will) and used a penetrating oil floor finish for it.  I have used
poly finishes before and they have tended to chip, although if applied in
very thin coats, the chipping is not as bad.  I have found when using oil
finishes, if the temperature of the area drops below seventy, that 24 hours
is not enough for the finish to dry.  Add about 24 hours drying time for
every five degrees below 70, and I recommend against anything but stocking
feet for at least a week.

Mike Saunders

A hint when using an edger:

Cut your own disk about 1/4 larger than the standard disc that comes with the 
machine (I'm assuming a 'Taylor' rental machine or similar upright model). 
Then, by tilting the machine towards the wall you can get all the way to the
edge.  WARNING: be careful, as you can also start cutting into the baseboard
now that your sandpaper exceeds the protective housing.  (1/4 = 1/4" above)


Stan

         i just bought a house recently and in the dinningroom
someone had put down linoleum over a hardwood floor. I was wondering,
is it possible to remove this without badly damaging the floor and 
is something availlable that would take the adhesive off?

           Paul

	What's a good filler for spaces between the planks of a hardwood
floor?  Or some alternate suggestions?  Thanks.

__Rich

When I was finishing an oak floor (sanding/staining/poly'ing), I had
some spaces. I took some of the sawdust from the sander bag, mixed
with elmers glue, then put it in the noticable cracks. The stain and
poly sealed it. Larger cracks could be stuffed with oak splinters, then
sanded. If you can see the lights in your basement, and the cracks are
fairly large, I don't know what you can do.

Dave

If the cracks are large enough to see the lights in the basement (or too
large for the splinters), why not try routing them to a standard dimension
and using a narrow strip to fill the slot?

Bruce Bretschneider

re: .0
 Another solution I've heard of is to use strips of rubber, or some 
equally reslient  material, with the key word being 'resilient' as opposed
to something like plaster of paris or wood putty. Expansion of the
wood will eventually crack up anything solid used as a filler.

					Bob
                                           
(I've also got some cracks that need to be filled.)

Its important to give a little thought to why the cracks are there.

If its a very old floor its probably just the normal drying out over years,
in that case filling them with filler, or splines of woood would be a good
fix.

If its recent cracks caused by the usuallly low humidity in houses in winter,
filling them now will cause interesting ridges to be formed next spring.
I've seen one oak floor buclke up 3-4 INCHES inplaces when humidity was raised.
Remember, swelling wood creates enormous forces (primitave people quarried
stone by placing wood wedges in cracks and pouring water on them). If you
fill all the gaps very tightly, when moisture content rises the floor will
also!

  I would like to have my dinning room floor sanded and refinished. It is
a typical light oak floor. Can anyone recommend someone in the Northboro
area ?

thanks in advance.
Pat

    I would guess that the only answer is a lot of hard work. You might
    find a solvent, but the fumes would be pretty bad, and you may just
    force the adhesive into the pores and any gaps in the wood. I'd
    try scraping first with a standard straight edged scraper, but be
    patient so that you don't gouge the floor. Then you'll have to sand
    with fine grade belts to just clean up the surface. If you try sanding
    from the start, you'll probably just clog the grit on the belts.
    
    I'm about to renovate an oak floor that has had carpet over it for
    a few years. It looks as though the original owners of the house
    had an area rug initially, and when the floor got marked in the
    heavy traffic areas they just put down a fitted carpet. I took up
    the carpet grippers from the edge, and all the staples that were
    holding the rubber under-pad in place. Much of the surface is still
    sound, but the wear areas need some light sanding and the whole
    surface will need some sanding to give a good key for the new finish.
    
    I will probably use a couple of coats of good gloss poly and one
    of satin. Sound reasonable? Should I anticipate problems if I do not
    remove all the original poly?
    
    There are some areas of stains, where spills have caused black marks
    with the pattern of the rubber pad that was on it. I'm hoping that
    light sanding and scraping will do the trick. Am I being optimistic?
    Maybe I'll need to use some bleach too.
    
    Any suggestions on good brands of poly to use? Any recommended
    suppliers in the Nashua/Merrimack/Manchester area?
    
    - Roger

    Woops!
    
    The first paragraph of .22 was in response to .21. I should have made 
    it clear. 
    
    - Roger

    RE 2.21  Linoleum on hardwood floors
    We too are purchasing an 85 year old home that someone placed linoleum
    over the hardwood floors in the dining room.  If anyone has ANY
    suggestions ???
    
    Also, how do you remove dark areas or stains from the hardwood floors?
    tks,
    donna
    

    
    I have heard that you can bleach the stains out of the wood.
    
    						.dave.

    In cases where the hardwood floors have been subject to linoleum
    coverings, in might be worth having a professional come in.  A friend
    of mine had his kitchen done 3 years ago for $150.  The area was
    about 12' X 18'.
    
    					Steve

    We just had our wide pine board floors done by Ken Shea of Northboro.
    He did an excellent job and was extremely conscientious.  He also
    seemed to be reasonably priced.
    
    To bad I didn't read this earlier, he was working at my house about
    the time you put in this note.
    
    If you have any questions feel free to ask.
    
    Judie
    
    

    We just has a floor sander come in and estimate how much to do our
    living/dining/sun rooms and a couple of small hallways.  They have
    a good idea what will and will not come out.
    
    The going rate for floors with 2 coats of urethane is now 
    $1.00/sq foot, which isn't all that bad.
    
    By the way, the person who is going to do ours said something about
    'moisture cured' polyurethane. (says it's the hardest there is)
     Anyone know about that?
    
    
    -bill

    re .27 it's a two-part water based NON-TOXIC Swedish product. We
    used it on a new oak floor last year, it dries fast, absolutely
    clear, without nasty fumes, and is harder than the hinges of
    Hell...great stuff,
    
    Henk
    

    re.27, .28 where can you get this new Swedish NON-TOXIC finish????

    I dunno...
    
    The guy who's coming "some day this week" to look at our floors
    says that he uses it.   I'll ask him when he comes
    
    -bill

    The stuff we used is called Pacific Plus D 503. We got it thru the
    guys that laid our floors, Midstate Hardwood Floors, Inc.,
    617-885-9011. I can mail you a copy of the spec sheet, let me know
    your mail stop.
    
    Henk
    

    thank-you in advance
    my mail stop is VWO/B12
    STEVE

    Any experiences using wood "tiles" (not sure what they are
    technically called, but they are installed in a similar way
    to asphalt tiles) to create a hardwood floor? I live in a
    tract house, with (sub)standard carpeting over a one-layer
    subflooring. Have HAD it with the grungy carpet, and want
    hardwood floors. I'm a single woman, patient but unhandy,
    and the stuff looks easy, but it's expensive and I'm not
    sure it's the way to go. I would appreciate any comments,
    suggestions, on the best way to get something good underfoot.
    
    Much thanks
    

    The tiles should work fairly well for your application. They are
    usually of fairly good quality- although Id look closely at the
    ones you choose to be sure they were not some real cheap brand.
    Installation is fairly easy, but the tricky part would be the trimming
    of the edge tiles. I'm sure you would have to cut the final tile
    all the way around the room, and that will require some accurate
    trimming. YOu probably should remove the existing baseboard to get
    teh tiles close to the wall, then reapply the baseboard to cover
    the cut edge. 
    
    You should read a good book or article on tile laying, but most
    important is to know that the first tile to be laid is the one in
    the exact CENTER of the room. Then work out from there to each wall.
    It would seem more intuitive to begin along one wall, but that is
    guaranteed to leave you a very crooked pattern. 
    
    Most of the tiles I have seen, even the more expensive ones, seem
    to have VERY thin finish. I suspect they finish them by passing
    them over the vapor of varnish. After laying the floor I would give
    them a couple good coats of some finish. Another note here has been
    reviewing floor finish materail at great length.
    
    Good luck!
    Ron
    

    Just as an alternative there is a hardwood floor "not tiles"
    that can be put down with glue. I saw it on "This old house"
    I think it was about a year ago. It was prefinished all you
    did was glue it down. Yes there was some cutting, but even
    with the wood tiles you'd have that. May be someone out there 
    saw the same show and can remember the name of the flooring.
                   
    dave

    I just finished installing about 500 sq ft of BRUCE hardwood parquet
    flooring in an addition. I didn't feel the "factory" finish was
    tough enough, so I gave it another coat of polyurethane and it
    seems to be working out very nicely. The extra coat sealed the tiny
    seams between the squares.
    
    As .0 said you must find the CENTER of the room. I did this by snapping
    chalk lines as per the instructions that came with the parquet.
    
    I also used a tablesaw to cut the edge pieces and installed the
    baseboard moulding afterwards. You could probably use a small 
    power saw (jig or circular).
    
    All in all it was pretty easy except that in my case I had a wall
    between the two rooms with passageways on either end. I had to
    match the pattern as I went from one room to the other. That was
    the real fun part but it worked out just fine.
    
    The wood floor adhesive is pretty nasty (smell-wise) stuff, so use
    protection and plenty of ventilation. I used to kid my wife saying,
    that by the time I finished putting down the adhesive I was so "high"
    from the smell I couldn't find the tiles and had lots of fun putting
    them down. Once the adhesive sets (about 1/2 hour) you have about
    3 hours to get the flooring down, so plan accordingly and don't
    get too ambitious and overextend yourself. Just take your time and
    in a few nights work, you'll have the job done.
    
    
             
    

    I have soft pine floors and I finished some with 3 coats of Minwax
    polyurethane and some with 3 coats of Gym Seal.  After 3 years there's
    a big difference in the finish.  The Gym Seal still has a shine
    to it and is holding up much better.  I recommend it.  There are
    lots of company's that make it.  I think I used 'Park'.  It gets
    its name from the finish put on gymnasium floors although it's not
    really that thick.
    

    Re: .2, the type of floor that they used on the This Old House program
    was one that 'floated' on the floor. The material was essentially
    a laminated material, with the top portion of the laminate being
    a pre-finished oak. The pieces appeared to be a standard width for
    hardwood flooring (about 3" ?) and came in 8' lengths. The pieces
    are milled with a tongue and groove, and glue is only applied to
    the t & g - definitely easier than the application of tile cement. 
    
    The application was installed over a cushion material similar to
    that which you would install over a carpet. This provided a cushioning
    effect.                                                           
    
    I don't remember the name of the material, but I've heard that its
    available at most home centers.
    
    Dave

    re:.3    I also have Bruce Hardwood Parquet and it EXPLICITLY states
    not to put varnish or shellac over the finish currently on the
    parquet...also when I bought the floor the Bruce distributor
    told me to be sure to only use wax since any other finish would
    not adhere and would ruin the floor.
    
    for what it's worth.

    re .6    That's correct. The instructions packaged with the flooring
    	     explicitly state NOT to use any other finish on the flooring.
    	     BUT - after talking to a number of local distributors,
    	     apparently this applies only to those BRUCE floorings that
    	     come PRE-WAXED. Mine did not. I installed L-70 DESERT.
    	     Which supposedly has 3 (?) coats (could fool me) of urethane
    	     finish. Since I didn't feel this was adequate, I asked a
             number of distributors if it was ok to apply more poly. They said
    	     yes, but that it really wasn't necessary. I thought it
    	     was and after applying the poly, I don't regret the extra
    	     effort one bit since the finish is far superior to the
             factory applied urethane finish. 
    	       Just make sure your prefinished flooring is not also
             PREWAXed.
    

    RE: .5 Be very carefull when using the "floating floor".  The
        foam cushion can cause the floor to become like a carpet in
        that it will sink when stepped on.  My neighbor used one of
        these floors and had to rip it up because the seams separated
        everytime someone walked on the floor.  Not a good thing to
        have happen.  The problem was that the floor dealer sold him
        the wrong foam pad for that floor.  I would be VERY carefull
        when using any foam cushion with hardwood floors. 

    
    I've installed hardwood tiles in my upstairs hallway, and although
    it looks OK, I think I'd go to a real hardwood floor next time.
    I had a lot of problems with "tile creep" during installation, mostly
    because you get to a point where you just have to step on some fresh
    tiles to install more (like in corners), and even working on a piece
    of plywood did not prevent them from shifting.
    
    Although I agree that centering the pattern in the room is very
    important, you must also take into consideration how you will finish
    off at doorways. I found this of particular importance in the hallway.
    If you're planning to finish off with those prefinished edging strips,
    I found it important move the pattern slightly so that you can finish
    off in a doorway with *whole* tiles followed by the strip.
    
    The reason for this is that when you cut tiles, you lose the use
    of the t&g. At the doorway, this makes it virtually impossible to
    mate the tiles cleanly with the edge strip.
    
    Taking into account the depth of doorways and the size of the tiles,
    this adjustment should be only an inch or so, which will not be
    noticable without a tape measure.
    

    I'm in the process of planning the installation of a hardwood floor
    and would like some input on the methods of securing the planks
    to the subfloor. I'm buying a prefinished flooring put out by "Bruce"
    and they recommend that I use their super-duper floor adhesive which
    costs about $100 per 5 gallon pail. 
     Has anyone used this adhesive on hardwood flooring before and how
    did you like it? I thought you could only nail this type of flooring
    down and wonder if I use the adhesive, will parts of the floor become
    unattached sometime in the future.
    
    Thanks in advance!
    

    I have installed several Bruce floors and the adhesive is the only
    way to really put them down.  The planks are too thin to be nailed.
    The surface should be clean of any loose material and level.  To
    correct, 1/4 inch luan plywood can be put down.  The trick with
    the adhesive is to work quickly and trowel it on evenly.  It is
    almost impossible to get the adhesive off of your hands, tools,
    etc.  NOTE:  I have stopped using prefinished floors because I did
    not like how they hold up.  They cannot be refinished.  Have you
    considered oak or southern yellow pine as an alternative?  You may
    even save money.

    Just for comparisons I just finished a wide pine floor that came
    out great.  Countersunk screws into the floor joists, pegged each
    hole, light stain, and then varnish....the total cost for a small
    hall (12x4):
    
    $40 - wood
    pegs ... I got those free (left overs from my father)
    varnish ... say about 7.00 worth used.
    1 4" sanding belt (for the pegs).
    1/2 pound drywall screws
    
    say about $60...and 6 hrs total work time (not including beer breaks
    and a few looks at how the Sox's are doing on the tube....and of
    course drying time).
    
    -Jay
    

I put down an oak hardwood floor a while ago.  It was about 300 square feet.
Bruce floors at the time would have run somewhere around $7-$10 per square
foot which seemed excessive!  I assume they haven't gotten cheaper, but they
sure look good.

I bought random width oak at Palmer Parker Lumber in tewksbury for about
$1.40 a board foot.  I also screwed it down with sheetrock screws and used
simply dowels for the plugs.  I'd do up a bunch of holes at once and insert a
dowel with glue on it.  Then, simply saw it off flush and go on to the next 
hole.  We got a professional floor refinisher to sand the whole thing down
because I wanted to it look good.  It was well worth it.  I've tried refinishing
floors myself and can't seem to get the delicate touch it requires to do it 
right.

I think it probably took a couple of weekends to lay the whole floor.  The only
negative thing I can think of is that by butting the boards together, there
were gaps between them and some boards wouldn't lay flush, causing some movement
after the whole floor was down.  Ideally, they should have been tounge and 
groved.

-mark

    could a floor like that be power nailed into my concrete basement
    instead of the screws you used?
    
    						.dave.

    re: .4
    
    DO NOT put a harwood floor directly on concrete unless you want
    to remove it in a few years when it buckles/rots/splits/etc.
    Get a DIY book on hardwood flooring;  there is usually a chapter
    on the right way to lay over concrete.  There should be strapping
    put down first to leave an air space along with a moisture barrier.

    I've put down unfinished, T&G, Bruce oak strip flooring in a dining
    room and foyer (about 400 sq ft).  This stuff is done with a power
    nailer not glue.  Being unfinished, you can stain it etc.  It can
    be re-finished whenever it needs it.
    
    I do know of a guy who laid the pre-finished Bruce a while ago.
    His name Mike Gioielli (NOVA::Gioielli).  I'm sure he'd be willing
    to add some words on the subject.
    
    BC
    
    

    ok, ok...  I guess I'll have to put the sub floor in if I go with
    a wood floor.  maybe we'll stick with lenoleum (yuk).
    
    						.dave.

re .6:

	I recently put T&G white oak floors down in my living room and
	dining room (about 500 sq. ft.).  I used the power nailer for
	it with no glue.  The wood was unfinished so it had to be sanded, 
	and sealed.  It came out looking great doing it this way.  One
	three day weekend and it was done.

-gary

    While I'm at it...
    
    Does anyone have any suggestions for hardwood flooring?   What is
    the best material to use, where to get it, how to finish it?
    
    I'm inclined to actually (gasp) pay someone to do this task.  Does
    anyone have any suggestions for reputable craftsmen?

    I just finished installing 600 square feet of hardwood flooring
    in my house.  The standard material used is 3/4" thick by 2 1/4"
    wide (red or white) oak.  These are the actual dimensions (1 x 3
    if you ask the lumberman).  The strips come in random lengths.
    They are graded from best to average (clear, select, better).  You
    want to get at least select.  I got mine for $1.55/board foot.
    
    The strips are tongue and groove and are installed using a floor
    nailer (brand name Powernail).  The nailer takes a strip of special
    nails called cleats.  A box of 1,000 (200 sq ft worth) costs about
    $14.  The nailer has a big plunger which puts the cleats in at exactly
    the right angle.  You hit the plunger with a large rubber/metal
    hammer.  Some professionals will now use the newer air-driven floor
    nailers with staples.
    
    I heard that you should stay away from the 1/8" thick glue down
    types of hardwood flooring.  Also stay away from the Bruce pre-finished
    type of flooring.
    
    Installation of the flooring requires you to know alot of the "tricks"
    of the trade to get it looking good.  Your back and knees will also
    be very sore.  After that, you will need to sand & polyurethane.
    
    -al
    
    

 >                                        Your back and knees will also
 >  be very sore.  After that, you will need to sand & polyurethane.
    
    Now you know why I'm probably willing to pay someone to do it. The area
    isn't that big - it's a hallway, but it is irregularly shaped, and
    I'm just guessing that the "tricks" will take longer to learn than
    it would be worth...
    
    I never intended to put down the glue-down stuff - you described
    what I want.    Where did you get the wood?   How much does it cost?
    Somewhere I've gotten the impression that the cost of installed
    carpet is about the same per square yard as the hardwood.  The
    additional cost of the hardwood is the installation.

    My uncle put down hardwood flooring in the living room, dining room,
    hall, cupboards, and two bedrooms of his house, all by hand.  He
    used a small car jack to push each board into place before he nailed
    it, to be sure there were no cracks.  He nailed each board with cut 
    flooring nails and a hammer, and set the nails down below the tongue 
    with a nailset.  He is a very patient man.  However, there didn't
    seem to be anything tricky or difficult about it - just tedious.
    
    Steve

    My brother-in-law has a Hardwood Floor business in Lowell.  The
    name of the company is Colonial Floor, telephone number is 452-1413.
    Ask for Kevin.
    
    I'm sure you will find his prices reasonable, and he and his crew
    are very responsible.

    > ..... stay away from Bruce Pre-finished flooring...
    
     What's bad about Bruce flooring? I just bought two rooms worth
    of it and am getting ready to put it down. Its 3/4" and pre-finished
    and I was planning on nailing it down but, the people at P.F. O'Connor
    said I should use their glue. They said they have sold a lot the
    stuff, with no complaints. Just keep the glue off the finished surface
    and you'd be find. Let me know if I should not install this stuff,
    before I get all the glue down.
    
    Thanks!!
    

    RE:5   Three years ago, I installed approximately 500 Sq Ft of
    pre-finished Bruce in a Dining room/Foyer area.  The flooring 
    was 3/4 X 2 3/4 natual tone oak.  Although,  I'd never installed
    hardwood flooring, I found the whole experience to be both rewarding
    and gratifing.  We have received many compliments on the finished 
    room.  

    I looked into the "glueing" method but optioned to use the nailing
    gun referenced elsewhere in the note. The nailing process was not
    at all difficult, although if your not used of it, expect sore
    arms and knees.  I was installing the hard wood over a 20 year
    old subfloor that had developed some squeeks...so prior to installing
    the hardwood I screw nailed all questionable areas tightly into the
    floor joists below.  All baseboard was removed from the room (actually 
    I optioned to replace most of it).  The door casings were cut 3/4"
    from the existing floor with a fine blade saw.  I then vacumed the 
    floor clean, and layed building paper over the plywood subfloor 
    (to eliminate any squeeks between the oak and subfloor).  The whole 
    process took the better part of a weekend; however if your room is 
    irregular shaped, its going to involve lots more cutting.
   
    Pros:  NOT difficult to install;
           Relatively fast provided you rent the right tools.
           No need to putty/sand/poly after installed.
           I found the Bruce flooring relatively easy to maintain,
             (recommend you use their wax and cleaners)
   
    Cons:  Cost.  I don't remember exactly, but I think the cost was
              around $2.50-2.75 per square foot.  Kinda high compared
              to unfinished tongue + groove oak.
           Because you don't sand/finish the installed floor, Bruce bevels
              the ends and edges.  It looks OK, however dirt, crumbs,
              spills have to vacumed out of the cracks rather than 
              wiped up.  Also, occasionally you can get a splinter when
              walking with the grain in stocking feet.
    
    For what its worth... I sold the house last spring, and both the
    realtor and buyer agreed that the flooring added more to the value
    of the house than carpet would have.
    
    BTW, In my new house I had hard wood installed the "old fashion"
    way.
    
    Jim.
    

    Since not every strip is exactly the same height, if you get the
    non-beveled edge prefinished floor and install it, you will get
    these ridges of different heights.  These edges are sharp, which
    is why you sand after installation.
    
    Also, you cannot re-finish or touch up prefinished flooring.  As
    time goes on and the floor gets scuffed or scratched up, you might
    want to sand it and put another coat of polyurethane on it.  You
    can't do that with the prefinished type.
    
    The cost of the wood is $1.55/board foot.  To get from square feet
    to board feet, multiply by 1.4 (in other words, add 40 percent).
    
    -al

I put in 200 square feet of Bruce prefinished flooring last winter.  I
pulled up wall to wall carpeting and 5/8 inch particle board, then put down
the flooring over the plywood.  My concern was that I needed to run the
floor parallel to the joists (because the room was 11x17) and I was not
sure about squeaks.  I put extra nails into the parts that would be heavily
travelled and not a squeak!  The floor has bevels on all sides so it covers
any uneven parts of the floor well.  All in all I am happy with the Bruce
flooring.  I agree it is not possible to touch it up which is a drawback,
but not a big problem.

						Tim

    
    
    Can any one be more specific about getting dark stains out of light
    floors? The people who had our house before had a dog and he moistened
    the floor in the same spot all the time so it almost looks like
    it has been burnt in that spot.
    
    thanks.
    

I've heard that urine stains are among the most difficult to remove.  One
possibility might be to use bleach.  If that doesn't work there is something
called "wood bleach" which may be of a different (though I don't know for sure)
composition.

Either way, you'll probably have splotches.  However, if you at least get the
stain removed you could probably sand and get a resonable finish.  Sanding
without removing the stain will probably not completely remove it.  BUT -- your
best bet might just be to check with a professional.

-mark

    You can try bleaching with either a chlorox or oxalic acid solution.
    They're both bleaches,but they work in different ways so if one
    doesn't work the other one may.  You can get oxalic acid at Spag's for
    about $3.00/pound, cheapest price I've seen. It's probably what
    .34 calls "wood bleach".
    And I agree, whatever you do you'll probably end up with splotches.
    You might want to try a small area to see what happens before you start
    spreading water and bleach all over the floor.
    
    Steve

    If spots are still there after the bleaching,maybe you could try
    covering it with Miracle Wood,or some filler like that and then
    sand it down.
    
    	Steve
    

    OK now we are installing a floor, got the swing correct in
    using the nailer, everythings going good. Now we get to the
    opposit wall, the nailer becomes useless once we get to with 
    in a foot and a half of the wall. I know the answer to my
    next question, atleast partially. The last foot has to be
    nailed the old fastion way. Whats the best type of nail to
    use and would drilling a small hole at the same angle as
    the nailer used be a good idea.
    
    dave   

They do make face nailers, which work the same way as the normal nailers but 
just nail straight down for exactly that situation.  Professional installers 
use them, but I don't know of anywhere that rents them.

Go buy cut flooring nails to nail the last bit.  These are square section 
hardened nails with a blunt tip.  Non-hardened nails will drive you crazy 
trying to drive them without bending, and pointed nails will tend to split the 
wood.  These nails are made specifically for what you need.  And there's no 
need to drill, the square tip will punch a hole without splitting the wood.

One note, since you're coming up on sanding and finishing.  You probably have a 
few places in the floor where the flooring was not quite square or you didn't 
nail the pieces up tightly enough, and there are small gaps.  You will probably 
mix some of the sawdust with glue to fill in these gaps.  When you go to sand 
off the excess, BE CAREFUL ABOUT IT.  If you use the drum sander, get down on 
your hands and knees and look carefully at the place after you've sanded it to 
make sure that you got all the glue off the surface.  Better yet, sand the 
places with a hand belt sander so you can watch what you are doing.  If you 
just go over it with the drum sander, it will look fine from standing height, 
and then after you have two coats of finish down you will notice that there is 
still a bunch of glue on the surface and it looks ugly, and the only way to fix 
it is to sand the whole floor down again.  If this sounds like the voice of 
experience, that's because it is.

Paul

    You will still have about 4-5 strips of wood to go when you run
    out of room to use the floor nailer.
    
    For the next 2-3 strips, where you can swing a finish hammer,
    blind nail the strips using 8 penny (8d) finish nails.  You should
    pre-drill the strips at about a 45-50 degree angle using a 7/64"
    drill bit.  Drill the hole exactly at the same point where the
    floor nailer puts 'em in.  It's also easier to drill the holes
    before you place the wood on the floor.  Use a nail sink to get
    the nails flush (or slightly below).
    
    For the last 1-2 strips, you have to face nail.  Just pre-drill
    and hammer 'em in.  Countersink and then fill the holes with some
    sort of wood filler.
    
    -al

    we had our floors refinished(sanded and polyurethaned) by a
    professional and have been *very happy*
    with the results. There was a spot in one of the rooms that the
    people said must have been urine. They were unable to remove it

    
    
    			herb

    After all the discussion about how to install a hardwood floor,
    I have a question about how to finish it.  In particular, does one
    usually stain the hardwood floor before sealing it, or does one
    just keep the natural color?  In particular, I am having a
    hardwood floor installed in my dining room where a cherry dining
    room set will eventually reside.  Would the natural oak
    hardwood floor look good with the cherry furniture, or would a
    stained oak floor look better?
    
    Does anyone have any experience with staining/not staining oak
    hardwood floors to go with cherry furniture?  How did it turn
    out?  What color (and make) stain did you use?

    Thanks,
     Bill

    Would natural oak look good with cherry furniture?  Entirely your
    personal preference, I'd say.  You're the one who has to live with it.
    My preference would be for a light finish on the floor (natural) 
    because I like light rooms.  However, I've seen an oak floor with 
    a darker finish that looked great.

    I got one for you guys!
    I want to put down a wood floor in my livingroom.  The problem is
    that the house is built on a slab of concrete, so nailing is not
    an option.  Can I use an adhesive to put a floor in? I don't want
    to use that wood tile stuff, I want a oak strip floor.
    
    Thanks in advance,
    Mike B
    

    If you get a book on flooring (like Time/Life or Ortho), it will show
    you what to do about installing oak strip flooring on concrete.
    
    The basic idea is to lay down some sort of strapping to the floor
    with glue.  The oak is then nailed to these.  You could also add
    some rigid insulation and vapor barrier while you're at it.
                                      
    -al

    you can also use a powernailer to nail strapping to the slab.  I
    helped a friend do this with 2x4s which were used to allow rigid
    foam insulation under the floor - one detail he pointed out was
    to be sure to use foam-in-a-can to caulk any significant gaps in
    the insulation layer before laying the flooring, or the value of
    the insulation will be severely compromised.

    That sounds fine for a basement floor, but, this is a ground floor
    livingroom which leads into a dining room that is carpeted and will
    be staying so.  If I put strapping down first and then the wood,
    then it would be higher than the door openings and it would be quite
    the step down to the carpet.
    
    Any other sugestions??
    Mike B
    

    
    re; .21, .24  on removing linoleum adhesive from hardwoord floors
    
    
    We purchased a 40-odd year old house 2 years ago, and discovered
    we had hardwood floors under linoleum, under wall-to-wall carpeting!
    
    The adhesive left on the floors after removing the linoleum was
    enough to cause severe back-pain by simply looking at it.  By pure
    accident we discovered that the adhesive was WATER SOLUBLE!
    
    We simply wet small areas at a time, waited a few minutes, and
    were able to easily scrape the goo off.
    
    Don't know if this info. is still useful to you, but I thought it
    worth a try to mention it.
    
    Regards
    

    I'm presently trying to make a decision about whether or not to
    install carpet or another hardwood floor in my 1st floor living
    room. Last night my wife and I were discussing the choices and weren't
    sure if we had all the pro's and con's of the choices fully understood.
    We've had wall to wall carpeting in our living room at another house
    and after a couple of years were disappointed with the way it looked.
    We have a couple of small kids who have spilled drinks, walked in
    with their muddy feet etc., and efforts to remove stains have been
    less than successfull. I know the carpeting is much warmer and more
    comfortable to sprawl out on but I'm convinced that stains, worn
    spots, etc., are unavoidable with a growing family. On the otherhand,
    hardwood floors are about twice as expensive, colder, etc.,. 
    
     My question for you fellow home owners is, if you had it to do
    over again, would you have had hardwood floors or carpet installed
    in your living and why? I would also welcome any good bad stories
    you may have about the choice of either flooring types.
    
    Thanks for your opinions!
    

  Hardwood and wall-to-wall carpeting aren't the only choices.  Our cottage
  has "end-up-fir" flooring.  It's some type of softwood cut so that the grain
  is vertical.  It's not as hard as oak but it is much harder than pine.  Some
  people are also using 2-by-8 (or 10 or 12) spruce tongue and groove for 
  flooring.  2-by-x may not fit in an existing structure but it is something
  to think about for new construction.  The disadvantage is that it is noisy,
  especially if you use it for the second floor above living space.

  I hate wall-to-wall carpeting because you just can't get it clean, at least
  not when you live out in the woods on a dirt road with a dirt driveway.  
  So we use rugs -- you can get some great buys on wall-to-wall carpeting
  remnants, in just about any size.  And when these rugs get dirty, you just
  roll them up and take them out to get them cleaned.

  JP

     We have installed pre-finished hardwood floors in rooms that we
    have renovated. They come in many different styles and types, oak,
    maple, ash, pine, t+g, parquet, strips, with pegs, grooves, flush,
    ect. It is prefinished, so after you put it down it's done. I have
    seen it in thicknesses between 5/16 and 1/2 depending on type. And
    since it is real wood it looks great. 
      If you can install tile you can install this. I have seen it with
    two kinds of backing. One is self-sticking with a thin layer of
    foam on the back. The other is applied with a special mastic which
    is the type I have used (several times) and is the type I recommend.
      It can be refinished (I had it in a kitchen once, big mistake,
    too much traffic for wood finish), is more expensive than w to w
    but much less than prof. applied stip oak ect and is DIY (which
    is the best part).
    
      Sommerville Lumber has a very good display of this in their floor
    covering department. Take a look, I would definitely do it in any
    room except a kitchen. It's the DIY's way to hardwood floors.
    
    					Kenny

    I too have been contemplating hardwood (oak:strip flooring) flooring
    for the 2nd floor of my home. I purchased the home w/ an unfinished
    upstairs where all the bedrooms are along w/ a bathroom. I'm finally
    ready to do something w/ the bedroom floors. I like the appearance of 
    oak but a friend of mine keeps insisting I choose W to W...probably 
    'cause he doesn't want to help me lay the flooring. What I envision
    is laying the strip flooring myself (I've done it before) and hiring
    the pro to sand it...Then my wife wants to stencil around the perimeter
    ..then I think I'll do the finishing myself. It's a big job but
    I did it before in a friends house and after seeing how it came
    out...I wanted it without question. Anybody out there strongly
    opposed to hardwood on the 2nd floor living space. I guess It'll
    be noisy. Anything else to consider? I know how some of you feel
    about the W to W on the 1st floor w/ kids and all, I share the same
    feelings; the carpet gets mighty dirty w/ kids. But the traffic
    isn't as great in the bedrooms. Shouldn't the carpet retain its
    beauty for a longer period of time?
    I'm still strugglin' with this idea...
    
    Mark
      

    I lived in my parent's last house for 15 years, and it had hardwood
    floors throughout.  My only real positive comment about them is
    that the house FEELS sturdier with hardwood floors - that extra
    layer of wood really helps.  But over the years, my parents eventually
    put wall-to-wall over the whole house, somewhat because of the
    noise, but mostly because of the temperature factor.  The floors
    are cold, and putting rugs over the floor helped, but there still
    was a lot of cold air eminating from the wood portions uncovered.
    
    The house I live in now came with wall-to-wall, with no hardwood
    floors at all.  The carpeting that came in the house lasted for
    about 1 1/2 years.  We have recently re-done most of the house
    with top-of-the line carpeting.  It's been in the house for a year
    now, and has held up excellently, and no stains with 2 dogs and
    1 kid (got the carpet with stain-release filaments - better than
    scotchguard, cause it doesn't wear away).
    
    My feeling is a GOOD carpet will hold up, and not look bad.  I like
    the warmth of full wall-to-wall, and the sound absorption it
    provides.  But hardwood floors add strength to your floors, and
    last forever.  But if you imagine yourself covering the hardwood
    floors with rugs, or even carpeting - then why bother with the
    hardwood expense in the first place?
    
    Andy
    

    We opted for the wall to wall because that was a warmer surface
    especially for our "rug rats"(kids were very young). 
    
    However I dread to think what the rugs would of looked like if
    we had got a light color...specifically around the kitchen table.
    
    With two teenagers and two babies and 7 years of meals, we could
    rinse/strain out the rug and make a soup to feed millions. And 
    thats with a good vacuming(sp) once a week.
    
    canuck 
    

    I have oak hardwood floor throughout my home except the kitchen.
     We have covered them all with wall-to-wall carpeting.  It's much
    warmer and easier to take care of.  If I were building now I would
    not bother with the hardwood flooring - just the sub floor and
    carpeting. 
    
    It's a hard decision - each person has different tastes.  My hall
    and stair carpeting has been down for 16 years.  The only wear that
    is starting is on the very end of the stairs.  Over the years I've
    thoroughly cleaned it with woolite 3 or 4 times.  It gets vacuumed
    often.
    
    Hope this helps

       Slowllllllyyyyyy, I'm begining to be convinced that the W to W
    is perferred over the hardwood in the bedrooms. The fact that it
    does provide a warmer surface to step onto when getting out of bed...
    and I can just imagine the noise made by the kids playing...is enough
    for me to try and convince the wife, besides NO LABOR on my part!
    That's one of the biggest things hanging over my head when I think
    of this project. 
   
       Points about 'Quality' of carpet should stand out in the minds of 
    all in this file. You really shouldn't skimp here. I probably got what 
    I considered to be average carpet when the house was built...you
    know...the builder tells you where he does business and you go and
    pick out the quality. I'll do better this time around. One thing
    I did do at that time was to kick in some additional $$$ (beyond
    his allowance) for a better quality carpet pad. >> Omalon D-1 (1/2") 
    if my memory serves me right. The salesman sold me on it as he said
    that it didn't breakdown over the years like the cheap stuff does
    and it provided a tad more cushion. ? He also indicated the Omalon 
    was guaranteed for the life of 2 carpets. Whatever the life of a
    carpet is. Anyway, it stuck in my mind that the carpet pad quality
    was just as important as the carpet itself. Hummm... I guess I've
    just about talked myself into it'  now to convince.....

    Almost forgot,
    
        What is preferred:          my 2nd floor has a huge master bedroom
                  by most           and 2 other bedrooms (& the bath)
    
    Should you carpet all one color that's somewhat neutral or soft
    on the eyes...OR mix & match.
    
    I visited the homes of people who have a different color carpet
    in every room in the house. 
    
    Mark 

    if you're EVER going to do something different with any of these
    rooms, pick something neutral, most likely the same as what the
    hallway would be.  If you've got something special in mind for
    a room, that you wouldn't change for many years, pick a particular
    color of carpet.
    
    When we had our house re-done this year, my wife chose a dark
    green carpet for the bedroom, to go with the Pink (yecch...)
    walls and the rose-colored curtains.  If we ever decide to change
    color schemes in that room, we might be in trouble......
    
    Andy
    

Well, I certainly would not pick carpet color that would force all the rooms to
be the same color...  A couple of different colors of carpet might be nice to
break up the monotony.

If I were you, I'd have part of the house be carpeted, and part of the house
be noncarpeted... at least some place to party and dance in!

Jim. 

  Our new house is in Chelmsford...does anyone have suggestions
  for someone to refinish the floors in that area?  (We want
  to do it before we move in.)  Thanks,

	Beth
    

    I have installed four hardwood floors over the last five years,
    opting to have a pro come in and do the sanding and finishing.
    The differece in price between his fee and the rental costs for
    the sander and my labor was just not worth the risk of damaging
    the floor. Those kinds of mistakes haunt me for years. Even if 
    other people don't see it a small gouge looks like the San Andreas
    fault to me. The finish all the pros I have used seem to choose
    is the "moisture-cured polyurethane" referenced earlier. I don't
    believe this is something you can pick up at your local hardware
    store or Sommerville Lumber however. I have seen none of the problems
    attributed to polyurethane mentioned in earlier replies. I have
    a hard time believing that a tung oil type finish is going to provide
    a better finish. It is certainly easier to refinish, however tung
    oil leaves very little in the way of solids on the surface for wear
    protection, so you'll probably be taking advantage of that ease
    of refinishing a lot more often. An oil finish is certainly
    "traditional" though ! I see an oil-type fitting more into the catagory
    of great for furniture but not so hot for floors rather than
    polyurethane. I suspect that if folks have had poor results with
    poly it's probably due to using the wrong kind.
    
    rpm
    

    I have a problem with squeeky hard wood floors. Unfortunately most
    of the squeeks are coming from the second floor. I also have a
    vinyl floor covering in a bathroom that has a loud squeek. Any
    help in quieting these floors short of removing the flooring 
    would be greately appreciated.
    
    Thanks
    Craig Barlow   dtn 261 2575  node GORT::BARLOW

    The only thing I can think of is to drill and countersink the
    hardwood floor for woodscrews above the joists, screw down the floor
    to take out the squeaks, then glue in wood plugs and sand flush.
    You'd have to be sure to hit the joists.
    
    No idea for the vinyl floor; problem is probably a loose subfloor,
    but unless you can get at it from the bottom and screw up into
    the subfloor to pull it down tight, I don't know.
    

    We once lived in an old house with wide pine floors and eliminated
    the squeeks by sprinkling talc and wiping it around so it went into
    the cracks.  May sound funny but it works.
    
    And anyway, it's no weirder than feeding your dishwasher Tang (which
    also works)!
    
    Pete

    talc power is still comming out of my floors years later.  everytime
    I turn on a fan.

    Time to revive a golden oldie.  I have a pretty simple, straight
    forward hardwood floor question.  I have them but exactly what are
    they?  They are all 2" wide boards.  Is it oak?  Is it maple?  Are
    "hardwood floors" made from anything else?  I can tell an oak from
    a maple when its in my yard, but on the floor its wood to me.
    

    Re: .40
    An oak floor has a very obvious grain pattern to it; if you're got
    a maple floor, the grain (if visible at all) will look very tight.
    Of course, you could have beech.  Or birch.  Or maybe even hard
    pine.  
    

Oak and maple are real easy to tell apart.  Oak has very distinct, and often 
quite wide, grain lines.  If you get down and look closely, you can see that 
the grain lines are actually composed of a lot of open pores.  Also, oak has 
what are called rays.  In the wood they will look like little lines running 
parallel to the grain, in places where the grain is spread out wide.  In places 
where the grain lines are close together, the rays sometimes look like little 
blotches on the wood.  The wood typically has a light brown color, unless it 
has been stained.

Maple, on the other hand, has much less distinct grain lines, usually narrow,
and if you look closely they are as solid as the rest of the wood.  It has no
rays, and is usually a light honey color, again unless it has been stained. 

You probably have oak, 95+% of wood floors are oak.  Hardwood floors are 
sometimes made from other woods, but probably less than 1% of the time, and 
even then they are usually parquet flooring of some type.  You almost never see 
strip flooring of other woods.

Paul

>    Of course, you could have beech.  Or birch.  Or maybe even hard pine.  
    
Turkey that I am.  I forgot all about these sorts of woods, I was thinking 
about exotic types like teak.  I haven't seen much in the way of birch or beech 
flooring (it would be tough to tell the difference from maple), but there are
lots of houses, especially older ones, with yellow pine flooring, although most
that I have seen is wider than 2".  Yellow pine is just that - yellow.  It has 
a deep yellow-orange color.

Paul

    I've just gotten a couple of estimates on floor sanding and there
    seem to be different opinions from each contractor on the type of
    finish.  One does a polyurethane compatible sealer and then two
    coats of poly while the other does a lacquer sealer and one (two
    optional) coat(s) of poly.  The polyurethane compatible sealer guy
    says that you shouldn't use lacquer and the only reason people do
    is that it drys so quickly.  Any comments on either approach?  The
    estimates are nearly identical (using a sealer plus two coats) at
    $1.30/sq ft.
    
    I asked one of the contractors about moisture cured polyurethane
    and he said he doesn't apply it anymore - it's too toxic to the
    guy applying it.  He did admit that it was slightly better than
    regular poly but also said that if I found someone to do it, I'd
    pay significantly more per sq ft. 

    Don't mean to confuse you, Minnesota Kevin, but there is also the
    option of waxing the floor rather than using polyu.  Wax finish
    looks better (doesn't have that plstic-encased-glare look) and has
    the advantage that it can be stripped and renewed by the homeowner
    when it wears.  Minor glitches or wear areas can be easily rewaxed.
    
    The disadvantage is, of course, that wax is a lot softer than polyu, so
    mean time to renewal will be shorter.  But you don't have to go through
    the floor sander mess unless the floor is badly scratched, whereas with
    polyu you always have to strip it all and start over again. 

        

    re .46   You and I both have waxed floors too many times at a certain
    Memorial Drive address!  :-) 
    
    These are rental units which I want to be as maintenance free as
    possible as long as possible - polyurethane seems to be the ticket.  
    I'm wondering whether or not it's worth going to a moisture cured
    polyurethane for even greater durability.

    re .46
    I've always thought of the 3 options, (wax, poly satin, poly gloss),
    that wax had to be completely stripped when renewed.  Poly just
    buffed slightly with steel wool for adhesion.  The advantages of
    the poly is longer wear time and the easier next coat.
    
    The satin finish does not wear as well but I prefer the look.  We
    have hardwood throughout.  I even replaced the kitchen linoleum
    with hardwood and it's about 10 years now and we need to refinish.
    Only problem has been some excess water with a leaking dishwasher
    buckled the floor somewhat but was OK after drying.  Only place
    we don't have HW is in the baths.
    
    Back to the issue.  I always thought that refinishing poly was less
    work than rewaxing.  Any other opinions experience ??

    New England Hardwood
    Taylor Road (next to Digital plant)
    Littleton Mass
    486-8683

I've decided to sand my hardwood floors and apply polyu to them.  The
instructions on the can say something about "thinning" the 1st coat so it
will soak better. Anyone ever do this?  

Also, has anyone ever tried applying polyu with a roller?  I'd think at
least the first 1 or 2 coats could be applied with a roller, since it will
be sanded lightly anyhow. The final coat will probably be put bown with a
good brush.. 

Anyone ever have problems with certain brands of polyu?  I have an 
oportunity to obtain some "Red Devil" polyu, but I don't know anything 
about it.  It ain't real cheap!

I'll be using a gloss finish 'cause this is a rental, and I think gloss
will be more durable and waterproof. Gloss looks OK to me.  Is there a 
conspiracy against gloss?

thanks for any info.

...bill

RE:.50 

	Hi Bill-

>Also, has anyone ever tried applying polyu with a roller?  I'd think at
>least the first 1 or 2 coats could be applied with a roller, since it will
>be sanded lightly anyhow. The final coat will probably be put bown with a
>good brush.. 

	I had a new floor installed in my kitchen over a year ago and they
	used rollers for *all* three coats.

>I'll be using a gloss finish 'cause this is a rental, and I think gloss
>will be more durable and waterproof. Gloss looks OK to me.  Is there a 
>conspiracy against gloss?

	I guess we didn't convince you on the Pacific Plus, water cured
	poly then.  If this is a rental you would be very pleased.  As I
	said above we had this installed a year ago, 1 year later construction
	still going on in the kitchen, 1 cat and one large dog who loves to
	race across the floor the floor is still in great shape.

	We did gloss 'regular' floor poly in our last apartment we had 
	areas that abraded through in 6 months.

				Good Luck whichever way you go - Randy

    Use a quality roller.  I tried to get away with a cheapo one time
    and the first part of the job had little hair like fuzz all over
    it from a shedding roller.
    
    YUK!

    
    re: .50/using a roller
    
    	You can use a roller but from what my guys tell me, you're better
    off using one of those mop type pads. I did the poly myself and
    using the one they gave me, it was a cinch..most of all, be careful
    and don't put the coats on to thick. I put 3 coats of satin poly
    down in my kitchen and it looks great..about the glossy, most don't
    like it cause it makes your floor look like a gym floor..Satin is
    the way to go for me...also leave the first 2 coats to dry 24 hours
    each, that way they will be good and hard. 
    
    								bill..g.
    

    I applied polyurethane with a foam rubber roller on a broomstick
    and it worked fine. No loose lint or hairs. The roller is made of
    the same stuff that the throw-away foam "brushes" are made of.
    
    Dave
    

    RE: removing linoleum adhesive
    
    I believe many of these adhesives are soluble in denatured alcohol.
    If you are doing an area the size of a room, I would NOT smoke while
    working.  Your neighbors may not be able to recover all the pieces
    of you and your house.

    I would use ultimate care using it indoors. Work only a small area
    at a time with a full gale worth of ventilation. The fumes will
    collect in low areas that could haunt you hours after the job is
    done. There was a guy here in the springs that blew his house apart
    doing exactly what this note covers. I wouldent suggest it on a
    wood floor since I think the wood would absorb a fair amount of
    the alcohol which would make it very flamible for quite awhile.
    If it should catch fire you cant even see the flames in normal
    light so your first indication would likly be pain.
    
    There must be a safer way.
    
    -j(wearing fireman hat)
    
    

      What about mineral spirits?  I used it to remove adhesive from
    the new linoleum floor I just installed in the bathroom.  This did
    not damage the linoleum at all.  In fact, it was recommended on
    the can of adhesive (Fuller?) to use mineral spirits but I don't
    believe it mentioned using it on the linoleum itself.  I have also
    used mineral spirits to lighten some wood that I stained too dark.
    This did not work as well as desired but it did not damage the wood.
    
    -Jim

What grit sandpaper do use for sanding hardwood floors? My floors are oak, 
and they're in pretty good shape.  I'd like to use the lightest grit 
possible to keep the scratches real fine.  I was thinking of using 120 or 
220 grit.  Is that the right range for a belt/drum sander?


thanks,
...bill

> I was thinking of using 120 or 
> 220 grit.  Is that the right range for a belt/drum sander?

The grits for a drum sander are considerably rougher than I expected.  'Rough'
is about 40 grit, 'medium' is about 70 grit, and 'fine' is about 100.  I was a 
bit concerned that the fine was not going to be fine enough, but it's fine. :^)

Paul

    
    
    
    	 		-< Removing a HW floor >-
                
    
    	I'm in the process of renovating my house. I'm building an addition
    and re-doing the existing portion. When I bought the house all floors
    were covered with carpets, which were in pretty good shape, so I never
    got to see what was under them. 
    	Anyway last week we knocked down the wall between the addition
    and existing house and found that floor under the carpeting was
    a hardwood (oak) floor. Now I'm not sure how much of the house
    is done with hardwood.
    	My problem now is that the hardwood is in what will soon be
    my kitchen, which I'm planning on doing in ceramic tiles. I think
    this floor would be more appropriate in the dinning roon , which
    will be in the addition.
    	My questuon is- Is it possible to remove this floor, and reinstall
    it in the dinning room, without destroying it ?
             
    
    					rjr

Unless your flooring was installed in a very non-standard way, it is not 
possible to remove it without destroying it.

I'll second John's recommendation that you leave it where it is, if it's in 
good shape.

Here's a question about some oak flooring that I'm in the process of
installing:  the strips come with two wide, shallow grooves milled into the
bottom face.  Why? 

    Re: .62
    I've always assumed the groove in the bottom is to decrease the
    contact area, so it's less sensitive to being laid on a slightly
    uneven surface.  But that's just my personal guess; I didn't get
    that from any authorative source.

Other possibilities I've heard expressed are:

1. Allow the wood to flex a bit, for expansion.  But the grooves run the 
   wrong way for that.

2. Provide a rough texture for gluing.  But I've never heard of gluing down
   oak flooring, and I thought I understood from this conference that rough 
   textures only provide voids that waste glue, don't improve the bond.

3. Reduce shipping weight.  Given the cost of the extra milling involved, 
   this one sounds silly.

4. Ventilation holes so the underside of the wood can breathe.  I don't 
   have a rebuttal for this one.

    in re .62
    "unless your floor was installed in a very non-standard way, it
    is not possible to remove it without destroying in."
    
    Could you elaborate on that?
    When we bought our house in 1973, it had a partition about half
    way between a 14 x 19 room, thereby making two small 'rooms'. 
    One 'room' had oak flooring the other didn't.
    I tore out the partition to make one big master bedroom. The floor
    came up rather easily with a small pry bar. I then mixed the wood
    with some newly purchased wood and laid an entire floor and refinished
    it. We only lost a few pieces of wood.
    The floor had been laid -by hand, i imagine- in the 1950s when the
    house was originally built.
    
    re .60. The above is not arguing that the kitchen floor *should* be taken
    up. My wife and I are *dreaming* about the day we lay an oak floor
    in our kitchen! Why do you want to take it up?

    The nails (cleats) that are used for a standard hardwood floor
    installation were meant to nail in and never be taken out.  Chances
    are that you would ruin the tongue or in some other way damage
    the wood when trying to get all of the nails out.
    
    A professional installer will never re-use a strip that they pull
    up.  Anyway the god of fine homebuilding will strike you down if you
    try and rip out perfectly good hardwood floors.
    
    About those grooves... maybe they do it so you know which side goes
    down :-)
    
    -al

	WE just redid our kitchen.  When we ripped up the linoleum we found
	an oak floor underneath, We tried to refinish but it was to badly
	stained to be able to refinish as it was.  We ripped it up and put 
	in a new oak floor.  There was enough salvageable wood left that
	I will be using it when I convert my shed outside into an office.
	If you do it carefully there is no reason you can't salvage most of
	it.

	As to tile floors:  The look gorgeous in *somebody else's* kitchen
	We had considered tile but it is too much of a backbreaker for the
	amount of time spent in the kitchen.  WE have oak cabinets and oak
	floor and looks perfect together.

	Tile floor? not in my kitchen, I do have tile on the walls but I
	dinna haf to stan on te wall :-)

	I thought the milled space underneath the oak strip was to allow the 
	floor to travel some in changing humidity without causing buckling
	or squeaking.

	Consider reconsidering tile floor.

	Good Luck either way Randy

re .65, re .62

OK, maybe "very non-standard" is a little excessive.

"Standard" floor installation is to blind-nail into the tongues, using a
nailing machine to drive special nails on 8" centers.  These nails have
ridges that hold them in the wood securely; the ridges also make it nearly
impossible to remove the nails without damaging the wood.  The nails also
bend and break easily - they're physically supported by the nailing machine
on the way in - further complicating the removal process.

So pulling up the flooring leaves you with damage to the tongues every
eight inches.  Because of the way the grain runs, the tongues would 
probably split off between most pairs of nail-holes.  This splitting would 
also damage the top face of the flooring occasionally.

I suppose you could take flooring whose tongues had been ripped up in this 
manner and re-install it by face-nailing.  But the tongues wouldn't be 
useful for T&G installation.

If the original floor was attached with finishing nails, either 
blind-nailed or face-nailed, the chances of re-using the flooring may be 
better.  With cut nails or hand-driven ring-shank nails, probably not.

How exactly was your flooring installed, Herb?  Other folks, have you 
re-used flooring successfully - or tried to and failed?

    re grooves milled in:
    
    Maybe it's so you can tell what kind of wood it is?  I've seen some
    maple which had a wide (1/3 of the board's width) groove milled
    down the middle of the underside.
    
    Of course, a carpenter who can't tell maple from oak....
    
    Dick
    

    re .68
    
    Our floor was blind nailed at the tongues. The nails were shaped
    as follows...    
    
    			_____________
			\           /
			 \         /
    	                  \	  /
			   \     /
			    \   /
    That is the best I know how to do with a terminal. The slope is not
    nearly that steep. 
    I would guess the the nails are about 3" long,
    The top of the nail is perhaps 5/16" to 3/8" the bottom of the nail is
    perhaps 1/16". The entire lenghth of the nail is perhaps 1/16" so
    in fact the bottom of the nail is a -say- 1/16" x 1/16" square rather
    than a point. 
    
    The nails looked very much like the ones I used to relay the floor
    (The new nails came from Taylor Rental who rented me the floor nailing
    machine)
       
    A few of the tongues *did* split when the boards were pried up,
    and there were rectangular holes left in the tongue where the nails
    had been. Other than that ...

    
    p.s. 
    fwiw: Before these nailing machines came along, I am led to believe
    that the nails were counter sunk using another nail. So nail n+1
    would be used to counter sink nail n

    re .62
    
    All of the answers are good. I would like to add that
    1) They let the expand and contract with temperture.
    2) The grooves allow more surface area for it to breathe. The floor
       is sealed on top, correct?
    3) So that anyone knows the difference between the top and the bottom
       of the flooring. Say that both sides were smooth, the board would
       have milled perfectly. Tongues and grooves would have to be exactly
       in the middle. Both top and bottom would have to grade 'a' quality.
    
    
      Alan 
     (I_like_the_grooves_up_it_scrapes_the_dirt_off_your_feet)

  Two more possibilities:

    The bottom ridges provide a hold for adhesive in case the floor will
    be glued as well as nailed (for those people who wear suspenders and
    a belt, I guess).

    If subfloor is uneven, it's a lot easier to plane off a ridge in order
    to level the floorboard than to try to shape the whole bottom of the
    piece.

  JP

Air voids reduce sound transmission through the floor.  I've seen parquet 
flooring where the bottom was criss-crossed by saw cuts, that was billed as
much quieter than standard flooring.  Doesn't make much difference in standard 
construction, where you have a large air void between the floor and ceiling 
below, but it can make a lot of difference in a post and beam house where the 
floor and ceiling are all one solid-wood layer.

Paul

    
    
    	I am going to offer my experience with hardwood floors because
    1.) I now consider my after what I have been thru, and  2.) because
    I tried somethings that to my surprise no one else has mentioned
    in 73 replies.
    
    	My house had pre-polyurathane hardwood floors, although very
    dirty, in fairly good shape.  I had a guy estimate $800.00 to sand
    the dining room, living room and staircase.  My first attempt involved
    useing TSP solution to scrub the floors with, and I would recommend
    this to people who have floors that are pretty good, coated with
    urathane, but have wear spots.  The TSP (you get it a spag's) will
    clean up the floors, and prepare them for new urathane coats.  I
    have seen this done and it works well, on existing urathane.  I
    used TSP on my floors, and they cleaned up and looked great, and
    I was all set to put urathane down.  Luckily I tried a test area
    ( the dining room) only to find that the urathane wasn't taking
    because the old floor was saturated with a wax based substance.
    
    Now step 2,  I was discouraged, and on the verge of hiring some
    one to do the job for the $800.00 I didn't have.  Then I heard of
    another approach that is quite common now.  
    
    Instead of sanding you rent a 14" buffer, and you by 60 and 100
    grit screens.  You place the buffer brush on the screen, and run
    it around the floors.  It isn't easy, but it is easier than sanding.
    The screens cost $7.00 each and you need 2-60 and 1-100 for a room.
    It still makes a mess, basically what you are doing is a lighter
    sanding.  The buffer can get into the edges fairly well too.  After
    I sanded the staircase myself, and put down three coats of urathane.
    MAKE SURE YOU DO THIN COATS.  This is where most people screw up.
    Better too thin than gobs flowing across the floor for the rest
    of your life in the house.
    
    My floors look great, now I just have to do everything else.
    
    Hope this helps
    
    Jon
    

RE:2.74 
    
	Hi Jon-

>    	My house had pre-polyurathane hardwood floors, although very
>    dirty, in fairly good shape.  I had a guy estimate $800.00 to sand
>    the dining room, living room and staircase.  My first attempt involved
    
	Okay you've just about convinced me to do four special case floors
	I had already decided to do the three bedrooms.  I have a living room
	dining room, sun room and main hall that are done with something
	called a log cabin style format floor.

	This sketch gives a *"rough"* idea of what it is, kind of a fancy 
	frame around the perimeter of a regular straight layed oak floor.
	
	 -----------------------------------------
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	 -----------------------------------------

	--- or | regular oak flooring
	=== or " cherry or mahogany, I'm not sure which, inlay

	I'm real nervous about trying these floors because of the changing 
	grain in the outer four corners.  The mesh sounds like it might work
	without too much trouble and if possible I would like to keep the
	patina of the wood, these floors are ~60 years old.

	My other question, is about wood fillers for floors, these floors
	do have some gaps in some places that need to be filled.

	Thanks Randy White

    
    
    	As far as wood filler goes, I know I've seen some stuff about
    them in earlier notes under this subject.  I did put alittle plastic
    wood in a few spots, but I really didn't need much.
    
    	I guess one major reason to use the screen/buffer approach I
    forgot to mention is that for old floors, that probably have been
    sanded before, one doesn't know how much of the floor is really
    left.  The buffer method is going to take off much less than sanding.
    
    good luck
    
    Jon

    re .75
    
    Your concern about the changing grain is prudent.
    Might interest you to know that very narrow belt sanders (down to
    at least 1 1/2") are available.

I'm in the midst of an ambitious, some might say foolhardy, hardwood floor
installation job.

Our house is a turn-of-the-century 11-room Victorian in Maynard.  The flooring
is one of the millions of remaining finishing touches on an addition, which
took the contractors most of last fall and winter to put up.  This addition
consisted of enlarging the kitchen and greatly enlarging the bedroom above it. 

In keeping with the rest of the house, these rooms are oddly shaped.  Bay
windows, chamfered corners, and a U-turn stairwell form the floors into
elongated octagons, more or less.

Matching the floors in the rest of the house dictated strip oak flooring, but
installing it in standard perpendicular-to-the-joists style would have, at
best, de-emphasized the odd room shapes that we find so charming; at worst,
turned the rooms into bowling alleys.

So, for each room, we designed a flooring pattern that follows the walls.
24-inch-long boards run perpendicular to the walls, pointing toward the center
of the room.  These are tied together by a contrasting course of cherry wood,
running parallel to the walls.  Then the center, which is in the shape of
the walls but two feet smaller all around, is floored in the standard way,
but on the diagonal.

Seasoned floor installers will have noticed a number of challenges in this
design.  I'll start with the good news, then on to the not-so-good:

1. Because no board is parallel to the wall, there's no face-nailing.  This
   little detail was, in fact, the inspiration for the design.

2. Nearly every board has to be cut at least once.  Most cuts are miter
   cuts, and the accuracy of the angle is always critical.  The length is 
   often critical too.

3. Running boards parallel to the walls requires advanced techniques at
   corners - which are anything but 90 degrees, remember.  To avoid slaving
   over a hot table saw to get an itty bitty piece just the right size and
   shape, only to have it split when nailed down, I'm bench-building the
   corners, gluing them up, and nailing them into place as units.

My carpentry skills are improving tremendously thanks to this project.   The
work is enjoyable if I can avoid thinking about how much of it there is to do. 
And the results are gorgeous.

I'll report progress and answer any questions here.  I'd also love to show off
what I've gotten done so far.  HOME_WORK NOTErs are welcome to visit,
especially if they bring their own knee pads!  Get in touch if you're
interested. 

    Dave,
    
    One question about this. It must look beautiful, but how about sanding?
    It seems like you'll have to sand straight and diagonally across
    the grain. Won't this be a problem?
    
    - Ram

Yeah, good question, Ram.  My current plan is to hire out the sanding (and 
sealing) effort, and to select the person that will do the work _very_
carefully.

I plan to finish installing one room's worth of flooring, so I can say, "I 
want you to sand _this_room_ and another like it" rather than, "I want you 
to sand two rooms that will look like these plans".

I expect the contractor to understand that the grain running every-which-way 
is a complication, to tell me how he plans to deal with it, and to charge me 
accordingly.  One who just plans to run a drum sander across the whole floor 
won't get my business.  I understand (from this conference, I think) that
there exist belt sanders that are exactly one board wide - seems like the
right tool for the cherry and for other intricate work. 

If I can't find a suitable contractor, or if they all want too much money to 
deal with the complications, then my fallback approach is to rent the right
tools and sand it myself. 

If anyone wants to recommend a Maynard area floor-sanding contractor that can 
handle this sort of thing (or un-recommend one that can't), please do so.

< Note 403.20 by VIDEO::DCL "David Larrick" >


My current plan is to hire out the sanding (and 
sealing) effort, and to select the person that will do the work _very_
carefully.

>>>Sounds like you just wrote the bid specs to do it yourself David!

I expect the contractor to understand that the grain running every-which-way 
is a complication, to tell me how he plans to deal with it, and to charge me 
accordingly.  One who just plans to run a drum sander across the whole floor 
won't get my business.  I understand (from this conference, I think) that
there exist belt sanders that are exactly one board wide - seems like the
right tool for the cherry and for other intricate work. 

>>>I don't think the cherry vrs oak board is the sanding problem here. The 
problem will be when the ends of the boards meet at all your funny angles. 
The sanding there will be a problem because you will be running cross grain 
SOMEWHERE with each board end. I would guess a good first sanding trying to 
follow the boards general grain direction and then a careful finish 
sanding with the grain will be what is needed. I wouldn't be surprised if 
the last sanding is done with something the size of a palm sander. If you 
are NOT staining the oak or cherry, but finishing each with a clear 
finish, there will be less likelyhood of small cross-grain scratches 
showing up on the ends of the boards.

>>>How do you feel about handsanding the entire floor, three grits, by 
hand?????  8^)

    
    
    Has anyone heard of "Fabulon" (sp?).  It is used for covering hardwood
    floors.  It is supposed to be very good.  My question is , Is this
    a type of Poly ?  If not can it be applied over urethane ( and viceversa
    i.e. can poly be applied over an existing coat of Fabulon )?
      
    I just bought a 17 year old house with hardwood floors through out.
    The people that lived there before covered some of these floors
    with carpets after they started to wear a bit.  I really don't want
    to get into sanding these floors and have been told by several people
    that they are in good enough shape to just re apply a coat of finish
    ( after cleaning and a very light sanding ).  I would like to use
    Fabulon but not knowing what is currently on the floors now I'm
    hesitant because I'm afraid that it may not take to a urethane 
    (and viceversa.)   Your advice and comments are appreciated.
    
    
    thanks 
    
    Norm
    people that the floors

    My oak floors are covered by Fabulon.  It is a brand name for a
    polyu finish.  You might read all the small print on the back of
    a can to see if it helps answer your questions.  [I don't have a
    can, but I've seen them in some hardware stores.]
    
    Rich

    thanks for the lead...
    
    I'll try to get a hold of a can and see if I can get more info...
    
    
    Norm

    Speaking of putting down floors, any comments out there on whether
    it is a problem putting these down in the wintertime?  I know about
    storing the wood in the room it's going to be installed in for a
    few days, and everywhere I'm installing it is heated.  Will I have
    any problems?
    -reed
    

    Moisture content on the inside of a house in the winter can be very
    low - might cause some shrinkage (like loose fitting tongues and
    grooves).
    
    If you really want to be fussy you might put a humidifier in the
    room you're using to acclamate the wood to the inddor temparature.

    Winter ought to be a very good time to install flooring, just becasue
    the humidity level is low.  However, be sure you leave a space around
    the edges of the floor (to be covered by the baseboard); otherwise,
    when the floor absorbs moisture in the summertime, it will buckle.

Reached a moment of truth tonight on the flooring project, and came through
it pretty well. 

For good and necessary reasons, I had already floored one end of the room, 
and now I'm working back from the other end.  Joining 'em up in the middle
will require some advanced techniques, but _much_ easier ones if the courses 
are parallel to start with.  So the time came tonight to measure the distance 
from one set of floorboards to the other, to see how much tapering I'll have 
to do to make things come out parallel when I get there. 

One side was 123" even, and the other was 122 13/16".  Less than 1/4" off over 
10 feet.  Not bad for dead reckoning!

    I am planning a kitchen extension for this comming spring. We have
    been considering installing Hardwood floors in the kitchen.
    
    Having reviewed the listing file 1111.25 to see if hardwood flooring
    for kitchens have been discussed. I have posted this for the following
    reason:
    
    What are your experiences and thaughts for hardwood floor in Kitchens.
    Pros and cons.
         
    
    
    I am planning on using the "floating hardwood" floor in oak as used by
    "Bob & Norm" on their Channel 11 marathon of 29-Nov where the re-built
    a 100yr old victorian kitchen.
   
     David 

    my opinion::: i would avoid the use of a wooden floor in a kitchen
    like the plague. it will look nice for awhile, but its gonna be
    a nightmare to take care of. give it some serious thought.
    
    jim.

    
    re .0
    
    Did you happen to record that TOH episodes on NOV 29th or did anyone?
    
    I am looking for a copy if someone records those shows.
    
    Mike B
    

    My mother has wood floors in her kitchen and they look very nice.  It
    has been down about 5 years and there are some scratches but her floor
    is pine (to match some orginal flooring) so it is not quite as tough as
    an oak floor wood be. We have linoleum in our kitchen which has been
    down for 6 months and we have a few noticeable scratches too.  Hardwood
    floors can be refinished and linoleum floors have to be replaced.  I
    almost got hardwood in the kitchen and I consider it a mistake that I
    didn't.
    
    The lighter the stain color of the floor the less noticable
    scratches will be.  You could also give the kitchen floor a tougher
    finish than the rest of the house gets.
    
    Carol

  

    My grandmother had oak flooring in her kitchen.  This was on a farm,
    with 13 children and countless cousins, nieces and nephews, aunts
    and uncles, etc.  After 50 years it certainly looked worn, and it
    had zero finish left on it, but it was still in good shape.  There
    were rectangles of linoleum in front of the sink and the stove 
    (a "Queen Atlantic" woodstove, of course) to catch spills and drips 
    and resist the worst areas of foot traffic, but the most of the
    floor was just bare wood.
    Assuming you use a moderate amount of care and can accept the idea
    of the floor looking "used" after a few years, it should be fine.
    If you want the floor always to look showroom glassy-new, it may
    not be the thing for you, but as far as durability is concerned
    I wouldn't worry about it.  There's no way you're going to give
    your floor as much of a beating as my grandmother's floor got, and
    that one survived 50 years in pretty good shape.

    We ripped out our linoleum floor several years ago -about 10 I think
    and are just getting to the point where we need to refinish them.
    
    No, I guess this will be the second time since it's been in.  We
    decided to stain the floor to match the walnut woodwork.  I just
    got through sanding the stain off the living room and dining room.
    Leave it natural oak and just put poly on it.  It makes for a very
    dark room.
    
    Without the changes we have been making I would guess it would require
    re-finishing, to our tastes, about once every 4-5 years.  That consists
    of roughing up the surface for adhesion and a coat of satin poly.
    Don't use gloss.  It's harder but shows the scratches.  Don't wax
    it.  It's slippery and re-finishing then means stripping ALL the
    wax prior to a new coat of poly.  Just vacuuming and once over with
    fine sandpaper and a brush of poly is my idea of maintaining floors.

    Go for the wood.  My mother has a wide pine floor in her kitchen
    stained dark and covered with satin finish poly.  Though with the
    dark stain it does show a few scratches (after all, the floor was
    stained @10 years ago) in front of the door, but it really looks
    nice.  I think the satin finish poly helps it look nice - the glossy
    finish gets dull too quick, and the satin finish looks more natural.
    We had a wood floor in the kitchen of the house we grew up in (five
    kids with assorted cousins/friends running arround) and though it
    looked "lived-in" because of all the traffic, it just added to the
    charm when the house was sold.  When my husband and I re-do our
    kitchen we'll be putting down hardwood - a quick pass with an old
    fashioned dry mop keeps it looking fine.
    
      Conni

    I agree with most of what has already been said. We were in the
    same boat about a year ago when we were considering installing a
    wood floor in our kitchen. After considering the amont of traffic
    and water that the floor would be subjected to we decided to consider
    another even more durable choice. I installed a slate floor. It
    consisted of 1/4" slate of various rectangular shapes and sizes
    which varied in color from blacks to grays to dull reds. I don't
    know what kind of effect you are trying to generate, we wanted the
    country kitchen type of atmosphere. I'm glad we used the slate because
    it's about as low maintenance as you can get. I installed hardwood
    floors in other rooms in the house so we get to enjoy both. I still
    feel hardwood floors in the kitchen are nice if you are willing
    to accept a less then perfect finish. If you do go with the wood
    I suggest you consider installing a more durable material infront
    of the sink, work island or any door the exits to the outside. You
    could use something that is compatible with a quality hardwood floor.
    I'd might consider slate, tile, stone, etc.,... I personally would
    not install linoleum in the areas mentioned above. Not because it
    is not functional for those areas but because it is rather unnatural
    in composition. Just my opinion, linoleum by itself looks good but
    in conjunction with hardwood floors, thumbs down.
    

    Wood's the way to go.  My in-laws have oak floors in their kitchen
    with a pattern similar to one inch tiles.  Goes down in sheets just
    like tile.  They've had it for about 5 years now and it still looks
    great.  Scratches seem to be less of a problem with this pattern
    because of all the cross hatching and irregular grain.  They used
    the high gloss poly on it and the only serious manintenance has
    been to re-paint the area between the sink and stove.  With a thin
    coat it blended right in.
    
    My sister has a light maple floor in her kitchen with a satin finish.
    Shows absolutely no scratches even with a house full of kids and
    frequent entertaining.  One thing to consider if you slave over
    a hot stove a lot is that your feet will prefer the wood over slate
    or hard tile.  Especially on those cold winter mornings.
    
    My mother put down the vinyl no-wax covering expecting low maintenance
    and durability.  Then she accidently spilled some hot grease on
    it.  Burned right through to the subfloor.  The repair job consisted
    of putting a doormat over the hole.  My own floor is 150 year old
    yellow pine.  Bulletproof.  I have a woodstove in my kitchen and occasionally
    a cinder will fly out when the door is opened.  Doesn't seem to
    harm the floor at all.   In the long run it's possible to repair
    almost everything except a catastrophic disasater on a wood floor.
    Not so with vinyl.
    
    - Gene Ho

    After college three of us working women lived in a duplex house
    with wooden kitchen floors. They were awful. When we moved in, they
    were clean but very scratched. From looking at the construction
    of the rest of the house, I'm sure they were cheap board with minimal
    finish on them. We obviously had very little traffic in the kitchen.
    My suggestions would be to do it the best way possible with a solid
    fininsh. Put down "scatter" rugs in high traffic areas, like in
    front of the sink where you have both people and water, under your
    kitchen set to prevent chairs from scraping the floor and by any
    entry ways from outside to catch grit and prevent scraping. They
    look beautiful but do require care. If you are a disaster in the
    kitchen, I would suggest not. Our old floor had burn marks in it
    all around the stove. I assume the couple who lived there before
    us had no idea how to utilize a kitchen. Good luck with it!!

The *worst thing on a 'soft' wood floor is...



High Heels!

I had an apartment in Lowell with little dimples all over the floors!  The
solution?  Cover them up?  Kind of sickening to pay money for wood floors, and
then have to cover them up.  What's the point of having wood floors then?

Jim. 

    
                        * Finish for hardwood floors *
    I have a professional bid to refinish the floors in the house
    that I am moving into. The price is excellent ($0.80/sq. ft.) 
    and he is highly recommended. However, I have questions about
    the finish he puts down. His method is to lay down one coat
    of "clear plastic vinyl" after sanding. He says it dries quickly
    and "doesn't raise the grain" as much as poly. He then lays down
    a second coat of "oil base poly" made by Magnet or Parks.
    
    - Is the use of this vinyl produst as the base coat acceptable?
    
    - Has anyone had experience with Magnet or Parks poly?
    
    - I have read here that three coats of poly should be used. Should
      I add a few more coats myself rather than paying extra?

    Thanks,
    
    Paul

    Has anyone ever seen a product made by Minwax for floor refinishing?
    You are supposed to be able to put this stuff down and it removes
    all of the old wax and everything. Then you just wipe it up and
    buff the floors and you are done. It was in an artical in the OHJ
    a few months ago and they said this stuff was worth a try before
    you went to the expense of resanding. Well, I have looked everywhere
    for this stuff and can't find it. (I didn't try Spags, I don't live
    near one) Has anyone ever had any experience with this stuff or
    have seen it? 
    
    Thanks in advance
    
    Tim_with_no_bucks_for_sanding

    We put down oak floors in our kitchen 2 years ago, and it is holding
    up well - not great, but well (with 4 kids, dogs, cats, wood stove,
    etc this should be expected).
    
    I'm glad we did, as it gave the room a much warmer feel. If I could
    free the house for a weekend every few years I'd sand and
    re-polyuretane it to keep it in shape.
    
    I'd do it again.
    
    Tim

It's done.  Completely.  And I ran out of area to be floored before I ran out 
of boards, nails, patience, or time - although I cut all of them pretty close. 

I'm just brimming with little tricks that make non-trivial T&G flooring 
installation easier, faster, or just plain achieveable.  I'm sure these 
will fade over time, so I plan to capture them in this topic, if only for
my own future reference. 

We removed the stove from the kitchen in late January, so I could lay the
floorboards under it and in areas that had to go down after the stove area.
I finished laying floorboards on Saturday afternoon, 6-Feb, then spent the
next day-and-a-half removing absolutely everything from the kitchen and
bedroom.  All of the above activity was carefully timed to minimize kitchen
downtime, while still being ready for the sanding contractor (we called him
"the sandman") on Monday, 8-Feb. 

I mentioned in a previous reply that any contractor who proposed taking a
big drum sander to my omni-directional-grained floor would be shown the door, 
and I envisioned lots of detailed work with itsy bitsy little sanders.  It 
turns out that the modern solution to this problem, which isn't all that 
rare, is to use a big disk sander.  I guess the drawback to this approach is 
swirly sanding marks, and I do see a few of these in the finished product,
but it's better than I could have done even with my choice of tools and
unlimited time.  Much faster, too, which was a consideration, what with the
stove banished to the back stoop. 

So the sandman disked, then put down three coats of polyurethane.  The third 
coat has more junk - sand, sawdust, hair - embedded in it than I'd like, and 
he did a section over again with mixed results, so I'm hesitant to include his 
name here.  Give me a few weeks to decide whether to issue a recommendation or 
a warning on him.  If you're in need of a sandman's name sooner than that, get 
in touch.  (He also installs hardwood and tile floors, and certainly talks a 
good floor.  Just a little sloppy in pre-final-coat cleanup for my taste.) 

The above shenanigans took all of the week of 8-Feb; the reworked section was 
done on 18-Feb.  In a rare display of serendipity, our next-door neighbors 
chose the week of 15-Feb to take a winter vacation, so we borrowed their 
kitchen and gave our floor an extra week to harden before we moved in.  

Yesterday (Sunday 21-Feb) we re-installed the stove, wrestled the fridge
into position without scratching anything, set up the kitchen table, and -
for the first time since late '86 - ate a meal in our kitchen with no
subfloor in sight. 

    Can anyone recommend the best way to "clean up" after installing
    a prefinished Bruce hardwood floor?  There are a lot of scuff
    marks left behind.  It is 3/4" solid wood, nailed down.  
    
    I've been wondering if all I need to do is give it a good "buff"
    with a machine (my parents have one), but I don't know what the
    best products are for the job.
    
    Recommendations anyone, on WHAT and HOW to use?
    
    
    Pam
    

    Bruce makes a cleaner, and a wax for their floors.
    Since its new you should only need to wax it...if the floor
    is relatively light wood use "lite and brite" --- if its
    very dark wood use "dark and rich".
    If you have severe scuff marks actually scratching thru the
    prefinish I would touch them up with a little stain before
    waxing.  
    I just had two rooms done with the 3/4 " Bruce gunstock 
    planking and had to do the touch-up before waxing.  The 
    wax goes on easily---use it sparingly--- and buffs up
    nice.  
    As I understand it you should only have to re-wax once
    a year (depending of course on the traffice), but can 
    rebuff as often as needed. 
    Hope that's true, as I'm a lazy housekeeper!!
    
    Just my 2 cents worth.
    Deb
    

    
    	Wash the floor with MURPHY'S oil soap.  The virtues of this
    magic product have been discussed elsewhere in the file.
    				=Ralph=

    My experiences may save someone a few problems.  We bought a house
    where the kitchen is in a new extension.  On the floor were hardwood
    blocks stuck down with a thick black glue.
    
    Our problem was that the tiles kept coming away.  The reason proved
    to be water.  Many tiles around the sink came away leading to the
    conclusion that it was water splashing on the floor that caused
    it.
    
    Tiles in other positions started to come up too.  Reason proved
    to be that the concrete floor had simply been laid.  No-one had
    put in a polythene membrane within the cement so damp was coming
    up and attacking the glue.
    
    I can't be bothered to skim off a layer of cement to lay a nylon
    membrane so I'm simply covering our nice hardwood with a roll of
    kitchen flooring.  Hope that's useful.
    
    Greg.

re: -.1 

Amen. Stay away from that stuff in the kitchen.

Our kitchen had hardwood parquet flooring. The tiles had shrunk
leaving a dime-thick gap between each tile-- real swell in a kitchen
with small children. We filled the gaps up with cookie crumbs and
crushed cheerios very shortly. Unfortunately, the gaps also let water
under the tile: another great feature-- a dryclean-only kitchen floor.

After the first time we washed the floor, the tiles were breaking up
into their constituent blocks and popping up to reveal a heavy
tar-like adhesive. We finally put down a new subfloor and vinyl
floorcovering. When the flooring guy came out to measure, he said he
had never seen an adhesive like that. 

The sad part is that the abominable floor was put down over real live
hardwood.

John H.

    Couldn't find this in any of the (many) wood_floor notes...
    
    It may sound like a dumb question, but among folks I've asked
    personally, I've gotten different answers.
    
    We're about to re-do our formal living room.  This includes having
    the wood floor refinished and fresh coats of paint.  The question
    is:  Should we paint the ceiling and walls before or after refinishing
    the wood floors?
    
    My gut tells me to do the floors, clean up the mess, then paint.
    My wife (and others) said no, paint first, then finish the floors.
    that way you don't have to worry about paint splatters/spills on
    the newly finished floors.
    
    So, lets see if the opinions are split among the DIYers.  What
    do you think?
    
    Rob

    We just finished painting our dining room. My DIY magazine said
    to paint the walls first, then the basebaords. We, of course, did
    it the other way around cause we didn't want to get trim paint on
    the walls. Guess what? The freshly painted baseboards were spattered
    with paint from the roller when we did the walls -- result: another
    coat on the baseboard to cover the spatter.
    
    If it were me, I'd take your wife's advice and do the walls first.
     
    Mike

    I can't improve on .4

    When we had our floors refinished it was AFTER we had painted all
    our ceilings and walls. The idea of splattering paint onto brand
    new floors sends chills up by back like fingernails down a black
    board.

    Of course, when you paint walls and ceilings there should be a drop
    cloth on the floor anyhow, but why tempt fate.
    

    .3:
    
    If you get paint on the floor, how hard will it be to get it off?
    If you are replacing the finish, you can probably get away with
    it.  (If it were bare wood, I'd be inclined to do the floor first.)
    
    Dick

    Sorry, guess I should have been a little clearer...
    
    As has been said, the debate is whether to refinish (sand and poly)
    the hardwood floor before or after painting the ceiling and walls.
    
    I guess I wasn't worried about paint on the refinished floor, since
    I always use dropcloths.  I just didn't want to get all that sawdust
    all over freshly painted walls and TEXTURED ceiling.  Since they'd
    have to get washed down before painting anyway, I figured it'd be
    easier to clean once than twice (and cleaning a textured ceiling
    is no fun - anyone got any hints to make it easier?)

    Anyway, I just wondered what other folks would say.
    
    Rob

    	I just did my hardwood floors. Do the floors first. The ceiling
    walls etc. will be covered with dust and you will be sorry if the
    paint is too fresh. When you go to clean, you'll scar the paint.
    
    	If the refinisher (you or a pro) does the floor correctly, he'll
    start with "corse paper and work down to fine or extra fine. Make
    sure you vac as much of the dust away as possible before he polys
    the floor. Use a bagless vac.(wet/dry). You're going to find some
    pretty fine dust settling after two months anyway. 
    
    	After the floor is done then paint, using drop cloths, paper
    tape, etc. and work from the ceiling down.
    
    Ken

>    all over freshly painted walls and TEXTURED ceiling.  Since they'd
>    have to get washed down before painting anyway, I figured it'd be
>    easier to clean once than twice (and cleaning a textured ceiling
>    is no fun - anyone got any hints to make it easier?)

    Yes - (only slightly in jest) - don't have textured ceilings.  You've
    just added another reason to my long list of reasons why I dislike
    textured ceilings and, if at all possible, will NEVER have them.

    I have a 2-part question:
    
    	1.  My house is 30-years old with hardwood floors.  The floor
    	    hallway and master bedroom is in dire need of some type
    	    of refinishing. My husband and I have NO experience with
    	    this.  Our neighbor told us we could remove the dark spots
    	    a VERY fine steel wool pad.  We prefer NOT to rent a sanding
            machine.  Has anyone ever heard of using steel wool?
    
    	2.  Also, in the other bedroom the hardwood floor has been covered
            with wall-to-wall carpeting.  If we ever wanted to take
    	    up the wall-to-wall, what kind of shape would the hardwood
    	    floor be in??  (The carpeting has been there for about 5
    	    years)....we can't understand why anyone would want to put
    	    wall-to-wall over a nice hardwood floor.
    
    I'd appreciate any/all inputs, folks!
    

    A question for all you hardwood floor experts:
    
    Can fine steel wool be used to remove dark spots on the floor? 
    This suggestion was made by my neighbor.  I know that sanding is
    the usual way to go....just wondered if anyone ever heard of using
    steel wool.  We don't need to completely refinish the floor...just
    a few ugly spots.
    
    Thanks folks!

    Never tried steel wool but there's no reason why it wouldn't work.
    It may take a lot more elbow grease.  We had a problem where a
    kitty box leaked and turned the floor real dark.  We wound up staining
    the rest of the floor to more or less match (we are now resanding
    to remove the stain some 5 years later - much too dark a house.
    I tried to tell the boss that)  Someone suggested using a wood bleach
    to lighten the stain.  Don't know if that applies to your situation.
    You might give it some thought.
    
    I love the hw floors we have and once we finish correcting the above
    mistake will make every effort to preserve them.  We wound up putting
    wall to wall in the playroom and the kids rooms.  In the playroom
    we tend to lie around on the floor palying games or watching TV
    and the HW can be cold in the winter.  The kids room really quieted
    the noise being transmitted to the floors below.  Same for warmth
    in the winter.  When I installed the carpeting the only damage to
    the flooring is at the doorway where you need a metal strip to
    transition to the rug.  Along the walls where a pro would install
    a nailing strip I did not.  It's not as tight as what a pro would
    do, but I can lift it later and have little damage.
    
    There are good reasons to put something over it.  Just put it on
    so that it can be undone later.

We have a dark spot near the wall on one of our floors from a previous 
pet.  Our home inspector said we could strip the finish, bleach the 
stain, then refinish and try to tie it into the existing finish on the 
rest of the floor.   Personally, he would put a piece of furniture 
over it.   We ended up doing that out of coincidence.


We took wall to wall off of the hardwood stairs.  While the strips 
have many little nails pointed up, there are only a few holding the 
strip down.  The overall look of a hardwood staircase far outweighs 
the holes you will see if you look for them.


In my opinion, if you want to restore the hardwood in your bedroom, 
pull up the carpet and re-finish the floor and don't worry about the 
holes.  Unless you look right at them, you won't see them, and most 
will probably be under furniture anyway.   

    My parents' home had hardwood floors (my Dad built the house). 
    Years ago they covered them with wall-to-wall carpeting because
    they were cold in the winter, very slippery, and required heavy-duty
    buffing.  Although I enjoy the look of hardwood floors, I too prefer
    a nice soft carpet underfoot.  One good fall while wearing socks,
    and you might agree.
    
    Have fun refinishing anyway!  You'll get a lot of satisfaction
    out of it.
    
    Robin

    One secret to finishing hardwood floors is NO WAX!
    
    We use a satin poly.  The high gloss is more durable but requires
    waxing periodically due to dulling.
    
    With the satin, refinishing is a scuff with sandpaper - relatively
    easy - and a new coat of poly.
    
    With high gloss and wax, you have to completely strip EVERY trace
    of wax prior to another coat of poly.
    
    I don't mind the slighly dull look of satin in fact I prefer it.
    Especially when about once every 5 to 7 years I put a new coat of
    poly over it and realize how easy it is.  I also say a little prayer
    of thanks to the guy who gave me the tip originally.

re .86:

If being slippery is bad and buffing makes it more slippery, why buff?
If it's a choice between less shiny hardwood floors and covering them up, 
I would go for less shiny.

We talked to a hardwood flooring installer who recommended against any
buffing, even between coats of poly while installing it.  Said it made
the floor too slippery...

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    I had my dining room floor refinished this winter.  It is oak, and
    turned out to be beautiful.  But it didn't start that way.
    
    When you take up the wall-to-wall, and the padding under it, and
    the nail strips along the edge, there will be lots of nail holes
    in the floor.  Just ignore them.  They won't be noticed after
    refinishing.  What we did have was a LARGE dark stain from pet
    urine.  The fellow who was doing the floor (whom I highly recommend)
    decided to try Wood Bleach.  First he sanded the floor with rough
    paper.  Then he applied the first coat which sits
    for some time (like 15 to 30 minutes, can't remember exactly) and
    then is covered with a neutralizer.  This he allowed to cure for
    3 or 4 days and then repeated the procedure.  ALL of the stain
    disappeared. Then he finish sanded the floor and applied 3 coats
    of poly.  It is beautiful and you could never tell where the stain
    was.                                       
    
    Hardwood floors are worth any effort to restore, at least in my
    opinion.  I have just taken out the hall carpet and will be redoing
    the floor - this time I'll do it - they charge ALOT to do halls
    because they can't use the large equipment in them if the boards
    are laid across the hall, as they are in 99% of halls....\
    
    Ellen

  	When cooler weather and lower humidity get here, I will be 
      installing a hardwood floor.  I already have the lumber (2 1/4" wide, 
      random length, T&G red oak flooring). I have no experience in this area
      and would like to hear from those that have done this instead of 
      learning from say 'Taylor Rental' where I will need to rent a nailer.
      For instance, is the nailer a standard issue item or are there 
      variations such as electric or compressor powered vs. hammer powered?
      What kind of nails do these things use or are they standard? Is the 
      humidity level that significant for hardwood flooring?  I'm assuming it 
      is and intend to wait for cooler weather.  I'd hate to install it and 
      then find cracks between the boards this winter.  As far as sanding 
      goes, I'm actually planning to use a hand held belt sander.  This may 
      be a crazy idea but it seems to me that I will have better control over
      the areas that I am sanding. Has anyone done this or would you even 
      consider doing this?  One last question, has anyone stained their floors
      prior to adding the protective finish coating(s) or do you leave them 
      natural?  Any other hints or suggestions are certainly welcome.


-Jim

    A few years ago I did several floors as you describe.
    
    The nailer you want to use is powered be a rubber hammer.  I have
    seen air power models but did not like them as they did not pull
    the flooring tight like the hammer model.  The hammer nailer is a 
    lot of work and hard on the back, so plan the work in short segments.
    
    Sanding a floor should never be done with a belt sander, instead
    you should get a sander which covers as large a sanding area as
    possible.  The reason for this is the fact that any dips of bumps
    you sand into the floor will show up when you put the finish on
    and look at a low angle.   The sander I would use when I did this
    was a 17 inch rotary sander.  The rental place will alway attempt
    to rent a drum sander.  Stay away from this unless you have used
    one before.  There is also an edge sander you should rent for use
    along the walls.
    
    Finish should be put on after stain, so I do not understand your
    question here.  There are many looks one can attempt to achieve
    with the stain, and many methods to go with these looks.  I could
    advise if you would post more specifics such as: Grade of wood;
    formal or informal room; darkness of color desired; do you like
    "highlights"; etc.
    

    Definitely wait for drier weather.  There are doors in my house
    that don't close now, but in the winter there is plenty of clearance.
    The same thing would happen to a floor if you laid it now.
    
    There a special nails, square-cut, that you use for nailing hardwood
    floors.  
    
    In this file someplace I think I've told the story of my uncle who
    laid all the hardwood floors in his house, driving the nails by
    hand and countersinking them with a nailset.  He had no money and
    a great desire for hardwood floors, so he saved every place he could
    including not renting a nailer.  I think he also thought he could
    get tighter joints if he did the nailing by hand.  This guy is
    ***VERY*** fussy when he wants to be.  I don't think there's a crack
    between any of his floorboards you could get a piece of paper into,
    and the house is about 30 years old now.  But I think I'd rent the
    nailer.

.9>  is the nailer a standard issue item or are there 
.9>  variations such as electric or compressor powered vs. hammer powered?

I tried to investigate the compressor-powered version for awhile, found 
nothing, and gave up.  Based on .10's description of its shortcomings, I'm 
glad I did.

The standard tool used in the trade and available from rental houses holds 
a magazine of fifty or so special nails, and holds them at the proper angle 
and height for T&G installation.  It comes with a two-headed mallet.  One
of the heads is rubber, and is used to snug the boards up before nailing. 
The other head is metal - that's the one you hit the tool with. 

You need to hit the tool pretty hard - if you don't drive the nail home
with a single blow, you've got a lot of hammer-and-nailset work ahead of
you.  Oak is hard, and the nails bend easily.  But forget taking the nail
out - it's barbed, something like a fishhook.  You'll wreck the wood first.

For those of us whose muscles are more accustomed to typing than to pounding 
nails, there's one brand of floor nailing tool which is more forgiving than
those described above.  It uses a ratchet and other clever mechanisms to keep 
the tool and nail aligned while you whack it as many times as you need to.
That's especially useful in tight places where you don't have much room to
swing the mallet.  I installed one floor with the standard tool and another
with this one, and I'll never, ever use the standard one again. 

It's called the Power-Nailer, distributed locally (greater Maynard area) by
Silverline-Essex Corp. in Dracut, MA.  (I've got their phone number at
home).  I've never seen it at commercial rental houses.  I was lucky enough
to rent one from a Digital employee and HOME_WORK reader who owns one, and
who gave me permission to post his name:  Dave Lunger, CIMNET::LUNGER. 

The Power-Nailer uses special T-shaped nails, also available from 
Silverline-Essex.  They're not cheap.

[Standard disclaimer:  I have no commercial interest in Power-Nailer, 
Silverline-Essex, or Dave Lunger.  Helluva nice tool, company, and person 
respectively, though.]

Some other random flooring comments:


.9>  Is the humidity level that significant for hardwood flooring?  

There are techniques for minimizing the effects of humidity on a floor,just as 
there are techniques for pouring concrete in sub-freezing weather.  In both
cases, if you have a choice, it's better to wait for more appropriate weather. 
Consider your own comfort, too:  floor-laying is hot, sweaty, exhausting work 
even in February.  Sweat-slippery hands and sweat-blinded eyes are safety 
hazards.  Dripping sweat on the flooring might stain it.


.9>  has anyone stained their floors prior to adding the protective finish
.9>  coating(s) or do you leave them natural? 

I've seen some stained floors that were attractive, but natural is my choice.
I like oak.

Actually, I considered staining certain boards to highlight them (see 403.18 ff 
for a writeup of my amazing project).  I hired somebody to sand and finish the 
boards I had laid, didn't trust him to get the staining right, and didn't want 
to interject my staining step between his two steps.  So I used a contrasting 
wood (cherry) instead.  Big bucks, but I'm glad I did it that way. 

I finished this floor only five months ago?  Seems like years already...

A couple of postscripts:

1. The floor is oak, with a contrasting course of cherry - custom-milled 
   T&G for more dollars than I care to think about.  I was disappointed at
   how little contrast there was between the oak and the cherry - especially
   once the polyurethane went on. 

   But after only a few months of sunshine pouring through the windows, the 
   cherry has darkened to a rich patina.  The oak has darkened and reddened 
   too, but very differently from the cherry.  I'm delighted with the 
   contrast now, and look forward to watching the floor develop even more 
   character as it ages.  I certainly aged a good deal while installing it...

2. I used a _wonderful_ nailing machine for this project, one with a ratchet 
   so you don't have to drive the nails home in one blow.  I've been meaning 
   to post a note on this tool, and a question in 300 finally got me to do 
   so.  See 300.12.

    Thanks for all the replies so far.
    
    Re: .10     
    >Sanding a floor should never be done with a belt sander, instead
    >you should get a sander which covers as large a sanding area as
    >possible.  The reason for this is the fact that any dips of bumps
    >you sand into the floor will show up when you put the finish on
    >and look at a low angle.   The sander I would use when I did this
    >was a 17 inch rotary sander.  The rental place will alway attempt
    >to rent a drum sander. 
    
      I don't understand this.  Why would a belt sander be more prone
    to digging holes that a rotary or drum sander.  Obviously I haven't
    done this before so I don't know the details but it seems to me
    that I will only need to make a quick pass over the area where the
    boards meet.  Also, I should drop by Taylor and see what you mean
    by rotary vs drum.  I assumed they were one in the same.  It also
    seems to me that one of these would leave scratches across the grain
    which would be much more noticeable that with the grain.
        
    >Finish should be put on after stain, so I do not understand your
    >question here.  There are many looks one can attempt to achieve
    >with the stain, and many methods to go with these looks.  I could
    >advise if you would post more specifics such as: Grade of wood;
    >formal or informal room; darkness of color desired; do you like
    >"highlights"; etc.
    
    
      I didn't realize my question could be interpreted that way until
    I re-read it.  I realize that stain needs to be applied first but
    from all the notes I read on H/W floors in this conference, it didn't
    sound as though anyone stained their floors.  This will be installed
    in the combination kitchen/dining room.  The wood is Select and better
    red oak and I definitely want to keep it light.  I guess I'm curious
    as to what makes the grain pattern stand out. Is it the finish coat
    (polyuretyhane or whatever) that does this? I think what I need to do 
    is take a small piece and polyurethane it to get some idea of what
    it will look like 'natural'.  
    
    re: .12  
    
      Thanks for the tip on the Power-Nailer.  That is something I
    definitely want to check into when the time comes. I imagine that 
    this job will be frustrating enough.  It seems to me that the hard 
    parts will be trimming all the mouldings for the wood to fit under 
    as well as providing a step between this new kitchen floor and the 
    bedrooms.

      One last question, do any of you foresee a problem with applying
    the finish in sections?  By this, I mean the appliances have no
    other room to go to (actually, it's just the stove that's too big
    to move into anothyer room) and will have to be moved within the 
    room during this finishing process so I am anticipating doing the 
    floor in sections like one-third at a time.  
    

>  It seems to me that the hard 
>  parts will be trimming all the mouldings for the wood to fit under 

Get yourself a dovetail saw whose handle can be attached to either end, for 
either left-handed or right-handed sawing.  Indispensable for this purpose.
One of the main reasons for DIY is to accumulate nifty new tools, right?


>      One last question, do any of you foresee a problem with applying
>    the finish in sections?  By this, I mean the appliances have no
>    other room to go to (actually, it's just the stove that's too big
>    to move into anothyer room) and will have to be moved within the 
>    room during this finishing process so I am anticipating doing the 
>    floor in sections like one-third at a time.  
    
Remember, I hired somebody to do the sanding and finishing, but I think 
you'll have no end of trouble getting the finish to look right.  You'll 
also be finding sawdust in your stove for years to come.

    Floors need to be very flat in order to look good if they are large.
     Since you are doing a Kitchen this may not apply to you but I have
    seen many expensive floors which were ruined (by my standards) because
    when you looked across you could see small dips left by the drum
    sander.  Gloss dark finishes make the damage more pronounced as
    does a low light angle.  
    
    A rotary sander has a circle of sand paper 17 inches dia. in contact
    with the floor at all times.  The effect of this is to sand the
    floor flat.  A drum sander has a cylinder in contact with the floor
    which will grind a dip in if it is in contact at that point for
    too long, thus you have to be careful to move the drum constantly.
    
    A belt sander will take a very long time to sand the floor.  Keep
    in mind that you need to sand the floor evenly to get a good finish
    otherwise the different surfaces will show up in the finish.  
    
    Stain is a matter of individual preference and is in part determined
    by the grade of wood.  If no stain is used the differences between
    the boards will be very pronounced.  To determine if you like this
    take a dark board and set it next to a light board and see if you
    like the look.  If not you should stain the wood to get a more even
    coloration.  If the desire is to get a larger color difference within
    a single board you can again accomplish this with stain using different
    methods.
    
    Finishing the floor in sections is possible but I would not recommend
    it.  Success here will depend on the type of finish, I would use
    some form of oil based finish if I had to do this and would avoid
    any type of thick finish (like varnish). 
    
    The best weather for floor work is fall, i.e. Dry cool air.  A
    professional would not wait for ideal weather, so I'm sure you could
    achieve fine results almost any time of year.
                                                  
    I hope this helps.
    
    
    

    Re: .16 
    
        Thanks for the explanation of the drum vs rotary sander.  I
    can easily understand how that would do a number on the floor in
    the wrong hands. I agree that a belt sander will take a long time,
    but I think I would be able to handle that one myself without much
    problem.  What I didn't think of before is that I already have
    a wood floor to practice on.  It's a spare bedroom that I'm currently
    using to store the oak flooring.  I figure I can't really screw it up 
    that bad because of its current condition.  If I do screw it up,
    I'll learn the easy way and have someone profrssionally do the oak
    floor that I install. 
        
   >>    Finishing the floor in sections is possible but I would not recommend
   >> it. 
    
      This is not what I wanted to hear!  :^) 
    
   >> The best weather for floor work is fall, i.e. Dry cool air.  A
   >> professional would not wait for ideal weather, so I'm sure you could
   >> achieve fine results almost any time of year.
  
      I'll wait.  I don't want it to look great now and then show cracks
    between the boards when the humidity drops.  I don't know how a
    professional would be able to avoid this or even if he does. I also
    don't know how much hardwood expands/contracts with the humidity
    changes but I'm amazed at how much softwoods do.
    
      One last question.  This may be off the wall but is there a
    'standard' direction that the boards should be layed down or is
    this totally based on preference.  i.e. When I enter the house,
    should the boards face horizontally or vertically.  
    
    
    -Jim
    

A recommendation: spend the $35 and rent a drum sander and an edger.  It will 
save you VAST amounts of work, and even though you have no experience with the
larger machinery, you will probably do a better job.  We did our living room 
floor with them, and it came out pretty well.  Pretty well being an average
between the use of the drum sander (that came out very well), and the use of
the edger (not so well).  BE CAREFUL with the edger. 

This winter we did our upstairs hallway, and because we were laying the 
flooring perpendicular to the hallway we thought we might as well use a belt 
sander, since you could hardly use the drum sander anyway (very high 
edge/surface ratio), and where you could use it it was all cross grain.  I
wound up creating a visible ditch (to me anyway, and to anyone who's looking
for it) about 3" from the wall on both sides.  Plus one nasty gouge right at
the top of the stairs.  If anything, it's harder to do a good job with the
small belt sander than it is with the larger equipment, to say nothing of being
on hands and knees for hours. 

>      I'll wait.  I don't want it to look great now and then show cracks
>    between the boards when the humidity drops.  I don't know how a
>    professional would be able to avoid this or even if he does. 

It will show cracks between the boards, and they aren't noticeable unless 
you're really out to look for them.  This is preferable to installing the 
flooring very dry and then having it spring the walls (Literally! It's 
happened!) when it expands in the summer.
    
>      One last question.  This may be off the wall but is there a
>    'standard' direction that the boards should be layed down or is
>    this totally based on preference.  i.e. When I enter the house,
>    should the boards face horizontally or vertically.  
    
It's based largely on what you want to emphasize.  It's sort of like fat people 
should wear vertical stripes to make them look taller.  If the room is long and 
you want to emphasize its longness, then orient the flooring that way.  If you 
want to downplay its longness, then orient the flooring across.  Our upstairs 
hall is fairly long, so we put in the flooring crossways to visually shorten 
it.

Paul

    I'd put the flooring perpendicular to the joists...but that's
    not a requirement.

    I have heard two theories on board direction:
    
    Put down the finish floor perpendicular to the joists.  The reasons
    for this are two fold.  The final floor will be more solid, and the
    flooring nails can be directed to hit the joists every 16 inches.
    (the nails are going to go through anyway so you might as well get
    some use out of them in reducing squeeks)
    
    Put down the floor such that the "primary view" is down the length
    of the board.  This view is felt to be preferable.  I have known
    people who would never have the boards run perpendicular to the
    long axis of a room as they felt the alternative looked like a 
    "railroad".
   
    I would make the decision based on:
    
    	Is the subfloor adequate?  (do I need any extra strength)
        If strength is needed go perpendicular to the joists.
    
    	Is the room noticibly long?  If so I would lay the floor parallel
  	to the long axis.
    	
    Tightness of boards can be a problem.  In fact the technical specs
    for many floor boards have a warning to avoid over tight board
    placement.  The problem is this:  If the floor is laid too tight
    when the floor boards expand in the summer the wood on the edges
    can be crushed and the finish pushed off as well as the wood damaged.
    
    
    
    

Re: .18   
>It will show cracks between the boards, and they aren't noticeable unless 
>you're really out to look for them.  This is preferable to installing the 
>flooring very dry and then having it spring the walls (Literally! It's 
>happened!) when it expands in the summer.
  

  My personal opinion is that this would be noticeable to me.  I don't 
indend to wait until winter but will wait for fall.  I do know what 
expansion can do.  I made and installed matchstick wainscoting in my 
bathroom last year and was surprized at how much kiln dried lumber shrank
during the winter.  I had to keep adding/replacing sections to compensate 
for the cracks that appeared between sections. I joked that my walls 
would explode when summer arrived.  Well, they didn't explode but one 
section buckled where it wasn't secured by moulding.  I'll wait for 
winter to fix it when it shrinks back.  The rest of the walls are 
QUITE tight.  
  
    
>It's based largely on what you want to emphasize.  It's sort of like fat people 
>should wear vertical stripes to make them look taller.  If the room is long and 
>you want to emphasize its longness, then orient the flooring that way.  If you 
>want to downplay its longness, then orient the flooring across.  Our upstairs 
>hall is fairly long, so we put in the flooring crossways to visually shorten 
>it.

  It's a small house but the kitchen/dining room cimbination where I'm 
installing this is about 1/3 of the house size.  I hadn't thought about 
the emphasis but now that you brought my attention to it, I will want to 
emphasize the length.  I was originally thinking about it from the 
perspective of entering the house but not of entering the room from other 
rooms. Thanks for pointing this out. 


Re: .20
    
      I am not worrying about strength.  I have only ripped up the 
linoleum that was there.  My original intent was to remove the 
underlayment but that would have been a nightmare as the plywood extends 
under the walls.  The only problem with this is that I will need to 
contour the floor at the entryways of a few rooms. I know that this will
cerainly require labor but I feel that it will be a lot less than the 
alternative.  The floor gives the impression of being flimsy but I found 
out why: the builder didn't believe in nailing down the underlayment. I
estimate that he used a total of one dozen nails in the underlayment. This
brings me to another question.  Should I nail/screw this underlayment down 
or are the nails used to install the floor adequate?


>>    Put down the floor such that the "primary view" is down the length
>>    of the board.  This view is felt to be preferable.  I have known
>>    people who would never have the boards run perpendicular to the
>>    long axis of a room as they felt the alternative looked like a 
>>    "railroad".
   
  
   Different person but again, thanks.  I hadn't thought about this 
perspective. I will be doing just this!


Many thanks,
Jim

    When you put down the floor, leave about a 1/4" to 1/2" gap between
    the edge of the floor and the wall, where it will be covered by
    the baseboard.  The space will give the floor a place to expand.

    Screw down the underlayment.  When I did my upstairs (unfinished
    up in a gambrel) I pulled up all the common nails the bulder had
    used and put in 'screw' / 'twist' (??) nails.  I put them closer
    together also.  But that was before I knew what a screw gun was.
    When I put the flooring down on my porch I used drywall screws.
    
    When you nail the hardwood go into a joist whenever possible.  The
    nails are long enough to go through the underlayment and help to
    hold the flooring but are not long enough to hold unnailed underlayment
    as well.  It's just that there's extra holding power if you use
    the joist so why let it go to waste??
    
    I tried for about 6 to 8" on center when nailing.  I'd hit a joist
    and then 1 or 2 nails between joists.  A pro may not put in that
    many nails, but my upstairs she be fine and the downstairs
    (professionally done) she squeaks in places.
    
    I second the space around the perimeter.  It'll buckle if you don't.

If you have baseboards that extend below the surface of the floor
you are putting in, you can still leave a space and use quarter rounds
to hide it.  It's gotta be a lot easier than trying to make the
floor exactly meet the baseboards, besides the danger of having the
floor buckle.

	Larry

      I do intend to leave the gap under the baseboards for expansion.
    The baseboards themselves won't be a problem.  They won't match the floor
    I'm putting in so I intend to replace them.  I really do appreciate
    all the hints/advise.
    
    -Jim
      

    	I've just cleaned out my dining room and plan to sheet rock
    the walls soon.  The old wall to wall carpeting protected the wood
    floors during the demolition work, but now are so full of dust that
    they have got to come up.  I'm concerned about protecting the fir
    flooring from joint compound and dust.  After the walls go up I
    want to redo (or have done) the floors.  
    	I've got two questions.  First how important is it to keep the
    joint compound and dust off of the floors before sanding?  Second
    what is the best covering for the floor until they get redone? 
    I've seen tar paper used by plasters but I am concerned about getting
    'black stuff' on the wood.  I don't think plastic could handle the
    traffic.
    
    				=Ralph=
    
    	(It took four trips to the dump with a grand total of 3000 lbs
    of horse hair plaster and lath to clean out the 12' x14' room. 
    Today I feel like I was hit by a bus)

    I always used red rosin paper duct-taped together. Any good lumber
    yard will cary it. It is lighter than tar paper but no tar. It
    will leave no marks.
    					Chris

    re .91 
    	Thanks for the tip on the red rosin paper.  However I was able
    to clean up the old carpet and remove all the plaster dust left
    from the demolition work.  I was waiting in line at the hardware
    store with a new SHOP-VAC $10 canister filter when I saw they rented
    CARPET DOCTOR carpet vacuum machines for $16/day.  I said what the
    heck and gave it a try.  What a great machine!  I was able to get
    up all the plaster dust and the carpet looked as good as it did
    before.  I then took off the rug cleaning attachment and used the
    hose to get all the little pieces of plaster around the room.  The
    best part is that the vacuum filter the air through water, so there
    was NO DUST and no filter to replace.  I highly recommend using
    these machines to clean up after demolition work.
    	I finally got a good look at the floor that I want to have
    refinished.  It looks in good shape with no cracked or missing boards
    but is *painted* black.  Is this a big deal or can the floor be
    sanded to have the paint removed?  I don't think the floors have
    been refinished before, there is still lots of wood before you get
    to the tongue and groove joint.
    
    					=Ralph=
    
    

    
    Has anyone actually used a combination of gloss (for durability) for
    the first coats and satin poly on the top. I've seen it mentioned
    before but have never heard of any results. 
    
    
    
    thanks, Rob
    
    
     

    I do this with regular varnish. This is the way I was taught at
    my painting classes. I would assume the same principles hold with
    polyurethene varnishes. Apparently there is an additive to the satin
    finishes (silica?) that cuts the gloss, but also weakens the varnish.
    That is also the reason you have to keep the satins stirred up while
    using, or they will settle.
    
    FWIW,
    
    Joseph
    

    I have two things to do, paint some rooms and sand their (pine,
    with a layer of chipping paint) floors, and I haven't been able to
    decide which to do first. Some people say paint first, then you
    don't have to worry about trashing the floor. Others say the dust
    created by sanding the floor will trash your nice paint job. I feel
    like I'm chasing my tail. Is there a consensus on this (not my tail,
    the work)?
    
    Bill

Well, I have no experience to base my opinion on ... But why should that
stop me!  8^)

Making an assumption that both concerns are valid, I would have to point
out that I would find it easier to cover the floor than the walls, and 
would therefore paint last.

Bob

    What about the old adage ' work from the top down ' ???

    I'm in the middle of this same process. I chose to paint the walls
    and ceilings, and then sand and refinish the floors.  Knowing that
    I'll likely scratch the baseboard with the sander/edger, I plan
    to paint the trim last. 
    
    I used oil-based paint on the walls, so I'm not worried about washing
    them after sanding the floor. If you use latex paint, it's washability
    should determine whether you paint before or after sanding. 
    
    
                               

    I'm not sure what type of paint the final coat will be, but I'll
    start with an oil based primer. 
    
    One other question on the floors. The floors seem to be in reasonably 
    good shape, but there is paint on them. In some rooms the paint
    is chipping and very thin, and in others it's not chipping. I'd rather 
    not use the low grit sandpaper (given the warnings in earlier notes
    about pine floors), but will the higer grit paper remove the paint? 
    
    Bill

    The finer grit papers may remove the paint, but they are more likely to
    quickly clog and become useless. Paint clogs paper more efficiently
    than wood dust, and finer papers are more prone to clogging. 
    
    I would try a quick pass with a medium grit paper to remove most of the
    paint. You'll have to judge after that pass how much wood you're
    removing, and decide whether to continue with the medium or move to the
    fine paper. 

    You might have the paint tested for lead content before you begin.
    As a precaution, pregnant women and children under age 5 should
    vacate the premises until the dust has settled.
    
    -Bob

    
    I'm interested in laying ceramic tile in front of the patio slider
    entryway in my dining room. The tile would be layed out in a 
    semicircular shape. The rest of the dining room will be 2 1/4 oak
    flooring. I would like to put a border around the tile made from
    a piece of oak flooring (or something similar). 
    Is it possible to bend oak into a semicircular shape or does anyone
    know of a source where something like this can be purchased?
                                                                
    DS

There was an article (actually an answer to a letter) in Fine Homebuilding some 
time ago that addressed this.  I think the solution proposed was to cut curved 
boards from wider oak stock.  It would be very difficult to bend oak flooring 
along its width - being the wider dimension, the oak would keep trying to 
buckle.  I suppose you could get an oak 3"x10", bend that (an accomplishment in
itself, but probably easier than trying to bend the flooring), and then rip it
into floorboards, but you'll save an awful lot of time, effort, and money by
just buying some oak 1"X10" and marking out and cutting curved boards.  If the
radius isn't too small, you should be able to get boards 3 feet long or so. 

Paul

    I don't know how much experimentation you are willing to do,
    but I recall watching someone bend wood on a TV program having
    to do with fine woodworking.  The process looked fairly simple,
    and I'd give it a try, assuming you're willing to risk a small
    amount of cash and effort.
    
    Here's how I'd go about it.
    
    Get a long piece of plastic drain pipe, a couple of inches in
    diameter, large enough to hold the wood you want to bend.
    Add an elbow at each end so that you can direct steam in one end
    and have it vent out the other.  Put in your oak, and start the
    steam pumping through it (don't know if you can buy steam in
    cans ha ha).  After "some time", when you're sure everything is
    thoroughly hot and steamed through, remove the oak and bend
    it around some kind of a form.
    
    Cutting curves out of boards can have the advantage that the
    grain will run out along the curve, possibly leading to
    unsightly splitting in the middle of the curve.

    What about cutting the curve from 3/4" oak plywood?  You could do
    it in 1 piece.
    

    re .2
    
    One critical requirement in bending by steaming is that the grain
    must be absolutely straight, or the board will fracture when it
    dries from the stress.  Pieces for bending are usually split out
    from a log or billet with a froh.  
    
    re .3
    
    the veneer on oak plywood is quite thin.  Might have wear problems
    over time.  If wear isn't a factor, plywood is an easy way to go.
    
    Bob
    

    regarding .4 and veneer
    
    We just had some work done in our home, and the carpenter
    had some extremely heavy oak veneer.  It was probably
    a 16th of an inch thick, instead of the usual paper-thin
    stuff.  I don't know where he got it.
    
    But such a "veneer" probably wouldn't have wear problems.
    
    If you can find it you might try the following variation:
    Cut out the pattern on some plywood.  Then glue on some
    of the thick veneer, and use a router to smooth off the 
    edges. Doing that might enable you to achieve some truly
    unique patterns on the curve.

And 20 years from now, when somebody refinishes that oak floor and
discoveres that the edge piece was plywood and has been sanded through,
they can put a note in under "Why did they EVER do that?"

	Larry

>    But such a "veneer" probably wouldn't have wear problems.
    
>    If you can find it you might try the following variation:
>    Cut out the pattern on some plywood.  Then glue on some
>    of the thick veneer, 

    The oak veneer on oak plywood is already at least 1/16" inch 
    thick.  It's not the paper-thin stuff.
    
    It takes a long time to wear an oak floor down 1/16".  I bet plywood
    would hold up well.
    

    re .7
    I bought some oak plywood some time back and the veneer
    was extremly thin, maybe a 64th of an inch?  I purposely
    used it only where there was little chance of it getting
    damaged.
    
    Last week when the carpenters were I paid attention to
    the veneer on a cabinet they built for us, and it was the
    same thin stuff.  However, on the edges they had carefully
    glued some 16th of an inch oak strips.
    
    Where did you see plywood with such heavy veneer?  I'd love
    to know so I can use it for my own projects.
    
    

Most oak plys that I've used were at least 1/16 in, unless you buy them
from Grossman's or something.   Expect to pay $50/sheet for GOOD oak ply.
They can be either ply or wood core, depending on your need.

FWIW, I have a friend who build a boardroom table out of ROSEWOOD plywood.
Real rosewood, not the fake stuff.   $800/sheet, and that stuff WAS 1/64".
( 4' x 10' ... table used two sheets for 20 ft length plus trim)  You sand 
VERY carefully!  8^)

Selling price...  $12K !

Bob

>        Where did you see plywood with such heavy veneer?  I'd love
>    to know so I can use it for my own projects.

    Ok, I'm going down in my basement now to measure it.
    
    Wait....
    
    
    Ok, It's exactly 1/32" of an inch.
    
    Sorry, I thought it was a lot thicker.

    Maybe it won't hold up too well on a floor.
    

>FWIW, I have a friend who build a boardroom table out of ROSEWOOD plywood.
>Real rosewood, not the fake stuff.   $800/sheet, and that stuff WAS 1/64".
>( 4' x 10' ... table used two sheets for 20 ft length plus trim)  You sand 
>VERY carefully!  8^)

When I was at the Cincinatti Decus in the spring, we stayed at the Omni 
Netherlands Hotel, which had been built as a luxury hotel in the '20s.  The 
entire first and second floors, including two story ballroom walls, etc, was 
paneled in SOLID 1" thick rosewood.  Just rough figuring I guessed that there 
were a couple of million dollars worth of wood adorning the walls.

Paul

    I recently read in an issue of FHB that floorboards wider then 
    8" or so need to be face nailed or screwed and plugged. The
    reason being that wide boards are apt to cup or bow. Apparently
    edge nailing them with a power nailer isn't sufficient. At
    least that's what the author of this article implied. 

    Does anyone have a floor with boards wider then 8" that isn't
    face nailed or screwed ? I'am considering putting down a southern
    yellow pine floor using 8", 10" and 12" T&G boards. The guy at
    the lumber yard claims edge nailing is sufficient. I suspect this 
    is true for a new floor but question whether it will stand the 
    test of time. Anyone have any experience with this ?
    

    Have you considered glueing the yellow pine to your subfloor in
    
   addition to edge nailing?
    
    That might reduce cupping a little.
    

    Now that I think about it, glueing it won't help much because the
    bottom of the SYP is cut out to help it lay flat.
    
    I found that even some of the 8" SYP was cupped a little when I bought it.

My house, built in 1982 has random width oak boards. Some are up to 16" wide.
I had to glue and attach countersunk screws and still had a problem with one
plank cupping! I don't think you could get away without at least surface 
nailing.

Ross

>< Note 403.32 by SUBSYS::FILGATE "Bruce Filgate dtn 291-7077 ms NKS1-2/H6" >
>                      -< what about dimensional changes? >-
>
>>My house, built in 1982 has random width oak boards. Some are up to 16" wide.
>
>wow, 16 inch! let's see, if you get a seasonal dimension change of 2.5% peak to
>peak, and cracks can not be less than 0 dimension (summer), then in the winter
>dryness you could get cracks of .4 inch.  With 2 inch boards the cracks would
>be up to .05 inch; both cases assume that the boards don't split.  Do these
>wide boards end up generating large cracks between the boards in the winter?
>
>Bruce

No, the boards have not split. There is a noticable gap between the boards in
the dead of winter, but not objectionable. (less this year with less use
of the wood stove). My biased opinion: I still feel it's one of the best
looking floorings I've seen in the past 6 years. We even carried it into our
kitchen and with the exception of a few minor dents, it's held up well.
Check out a late 1700 colonial sometime and check out the width of some of the
pine boards used.

Ross

    RE .28...
    
    Our house, +/- 75 years old, has wide pine boards in one of the
    bedrooms.  When I pulled up th black carpet with yellow trim, I
    found linoleum, then the boards...dirty, but in good shape.  I 
    immediately thought of sanding them, and looked for surface nails
    that I would have to go around and sink.  I lucked out...none. 
    All the boards were edge-nailed.  I went and rented the sander and
    edger and went to it, doing the edges first, then using the sander
    to do the middle of the floor.  Wrong.  The boards had such a bow
    to them that the sander only took down about 4 inches in the middle,
    leaving about 2 inches at the edge of each board.  I did the entire
    room on my hands and knees with the edger and then used the larger
    sander for touch-up.  It was a hell of a job, but it doesn't look
    _that_ bad.
    
    So, yes, the boards did develop a bow, but the house is about 75
    years old.
    
    Gene
    

    I am planning on installing a Bruce Hardwood floor (the pre-finished,
    laminated, adhesive applied type) in my hall way some time in the next
    couple of weeks. 
    
    The exisiting floor covering is Vinyl and is only 2.5yrs old, in good
    condition - My wife has grown to hate the pattern hence the wood
    replacement so soon. 
    
    I spoke to Bruce, Customer Service Dept, in Texas and the do recommend
    installing over vinyl, using their "Vinyl Blocker" and adhesive. 
    
    What are your thaughts?
    
    Should I invest the effort in removing the vinyl or not??? If yes
    any suggestion on removing the vinyl and adhesive. (I have looked
    a 1111.54 already for some tips)
    
                                   Thanks David.
    

    
    Bruce also makes the oak strip 3/4" type flooring you describe.
    I had it installed in my family room and dining room...and it
    is holding up very well. (its been 2 years now) You MUST treat
    it properly when its first installed...a special conditioner, and
    'finish' buffing, etc.  After that it seems to be very easy to 
    keep looking nice.  So, I would guess that it does depend on
    which 'flavor' of Bruce flooring one purchases, and whether they
    follow the directions when installing....
    
    deb
    

    Without getting into the "Bruce" discussion, I would not try to
    take up the old vinyl and adhesive if it is in good shape.  It's
    a lot of work with very little benefit.  A subsurface that is even
    enough for a vinyl floor is certainly OK for wood.  Any pattern
    in the vinyl should be well masked by the wood.
    
    Bob
    

    re .105
    
    I think you may have misunderstood.  The evenness I referred to
    was the level of the new floor with that of the already existing
    floors in adjacent rooms.
    

    Call Bruce yourself (800-527-5903).

    If the bevel isn't too deep, you could have them planed down or
    sanded with a rotary drum sander.  This would also remove the finish
    so you could match them to your trim.  There must be somebody out
    there with a new Ryobi AP10 from Santa that wants to try it out!
    
    Good luck,
    
    Bob

    Re: .15
    
    There was an AP-10 used for sale in the DELNI::WOODWORKING_AND_TOOLS
    notes file note 765.0 for $250. Could plane them yourself which would
    take off the finish or use REAL wood ;^)

    
    RE: .17
    
    I don't understand (not the first time).  If the edges are beveled,
    then how does this stuff fit together without gaps?  I'm sure I'm
    missing something in the translation.
    
    Instead of a planer, use a good table saw and trim the bevels off.
    
    Phil

    Re: .17
    
    I used a smiley face...
    
    Sorry but I just don't like premade flooring. Sort of like peel and
    stick carpeting, it has it's place I suppose.
    
    Can you remove the outside strip of wood from around the square? If you
    use a joiner to straighten the edges your edge strips won't be as wide
    as the rest. Disassembly of the squares may give you the raw materials
    you need to do the table top (not as bad as doing a floor this way) but
    you'll have a lot of waste.
    
    A sander (rentable) would take the finish off the wood when you get the
    table assembled and if you use urethane to finish it you could fill the
    grooves with it as you build up a thick durable coat. (not my primary
    choice of finishes but that is another topic)
    
    Sounds like you might even want to consider an inlaid glass top over
    the tiles for your cleanable/eatable surface...
    
    Without more tools, what made you attempt a project like this? I always
    start things like this to JUSTIFY buying the right tools ;^)
    
    God luck and keep us informed with what you decide on.

    
    Any long-term wear reports from those who've used tung-oil to finish
    their floors ? I'm about to do some floor/stairs finishing and I'd
    prefer to use the tung oil if anybody will still put in a good word for
    it ... 
          
    

    I have used tung oil to finish a couple of pieces of furniture and like
    very much both the way it looks and the process itself (have also done
    a couple of floors with polyurethane)
    
    My feeling is that tung oil is inappropriate for floors! I question
    whether the surface will be hard enuf to handle the bruising that a
    floor takes. The idea of hand rubbing a floor doesn't seem to quite
    mesh either.

I have to agree with .108 ... tung oil is nice for furniture (unless its
a table), but poly is better for floors.  Personally, I hate poly. 8^)
Looks too plastic for my liking.   But I don't want to be doing the floors
every other year, either.

Bob

    Over the past three years, I've refinished the floors in the upstairs
    bedrooms and hallway with Watco wood floor finish. The bedroom floors
    are pine; the hallway floor is maple. In these fairly low-traffic areas
    the floors have held up beautifully.  
    
    Just two weeks ago I refinished the maple floors in my foyer and
    dining room. I chose to use Watco again because I really love the
    "warm" non-glossy look. I'm very interested in seeing how the floors
    hold up. Much of the foyer floor is covered with area rugs, and
    there is a rug at the front door to catch dirt, water, etc. I also
    have a large cocoa fiber mat outside the door for further protection
    (From Spag's, across from the peanut butter machine). I guess I'm 
    willing to be extra careful with the floor because I like the look of 
    the Watco.  I may pay for it in the future -- but then again I may not.
    I let you know how the floor makes it through the winter.  
    
    Joe
                                          

    re .109
    
    Bob,  do you use the gloss finish.  I don't care for the plastic
    look of that either.
    
    I am however, very pleased with my satin finish poly.  It holds
    up well and has a warm 'wood' look to it.
    
    :^)  [I finally figured out how to look at that little devil]
    
    my $.02
    fred

    BTW, "satin" or "semi-gloss" poly is simply high-gloss poly (it's
    high gloss by default) with some very fine particles mixed in to
    kill the gloss.  (You'll notice that semi-gloss poly always has
    a "stir frequently" admonition on the label).
    
    So poly is poly - durability, applicability, surface prep, etc,
    etc are the same for any kind of poly.

>    So poly is poly - durability, applicability, surface prep, etc,
>    etc are the same for any kind of poly.


Are you sure??  I've always been told that gloss is a more durable finish
than the semi(satin)  In fact, when the subs put down the floors in the 
new homes, they _always_ put gloss down first regardless of the top coat,
because they claim that the gloss provides a more durable, harder finish.

my .02 worth....  

Brian

    Any suggestions on installing a hardwood floor??  I'm particularly
    concerned about the levelness and condition of the joists and subfloor.
    
    I just bought a ten year old house and we were about to replace
    all the carpets ( my wife is allergic to the cats that lived there).
    I got the idea for hardwood and well, the oak strips are being
    delivered next week.
    
    Did anybody run into trouble with a subfloor which was uneven??
    What do you do about it??  I don't know what I'll find when I rip
    up the carpet but there is a spot in the kitchen where the floor
    is very uneven.  I would have to fix that area if I were going to
    do the kitchen ( which I'm not ).
    
                               thanks in advance
    
                                                 John

.114>  Any suggestions on installing a hardwood floor??  

For starters, read 300.*, 403.*, and probably several others listed in
1111.96.


.114>  Did anybody run into trouble with a subfloor which was uneven??
.114>  What do you do about it??  

I spent a fair amount of time and trouble shimming, "Level-best"-ing, and
rebuilding an old, uneven subfloor.  The most critical place was where the
old house joins the addition (with its plumb-and-square, solidly-build
subfloor), so I put in the most effort there, and it came out pretty well. 
Other areas got less attention and were less successful, but still not bad
for an old house.

re .115
    
    Thanks for the pointer, I'm not sure how I missed 1111.96 but I
    managed....
    
    
                                             John

    I have a house that has cherry wood floors throughout.  Most rooms
    had a large piece of linoleum laying over most of the floor area
    of the room.  When I threw all the linoleum away, the cherry 
    underneath the linoleum was perfect and clean.  Around the outer
    edges where the linoleum did not cover is sort of dirty, etc.
    
    There is no polyurethane, etc on these floors.  Is there a way to
    renew the dirty areas of these beautiful floors without sanding
    them with a floor sander?  Maybe a large floor cleaner or something?
    I will not go the sanding route, too dusty.  Thanks.
    
    
    	Jack

    
    RE: .117
    
    Try using a buffer with a fine steel wool pad.
    

    re .117 
    
    You might also try the Formby's "restoring" product (NOT the
    refinishing product) I've heard of good results with it, although I've
    never used it myself. I believe it's use with steel wool - re note .118 

    I'm planning on installing a small amount (~50 ft) of SYP  T&G flooring
    this weekend. I don't plan on renting a nailer since the area is small.
    I am planning on installing with 6 d finish nails - I have the feeling
    that cut nails will break many of the tongues and the SYP is much
    softer than something like oak which would require hard nails. The
    subfloor is 3/4 ply and I'll be going parallel to the joints for
    asthetic reasons. 
    
    Any opinions on whether this is a good plan or not ?  Should I use
    subfloor glue also ? Am I crazy not to use a nailer ? 
    

    the nailer is not a necessity but cut nails are !!! SYP will even
    bend cut nails I've installed t&g fir decking with cut nail and
    did fairly well. nailer would have been an extra conveniece but
    was able to live without. use cut nails
    paul
    

    I would pre-drill and use 8d finish nails, driven at an angle.  8d are
    too long, but they're less prone to bending than 6d.  When face-nailing, 
    drive different nails at different angles for better holding.  
    
    Take my advice with a grain of salt; my floor installation experience
    is all with oak.
    
    Glue sounds interesting, but I would be concerned about either:
    	- using too little, hence wasting my time, or
    	- using too much, hence making a gooey mess on the finish surfaces

    To add to .37, use hot dipped galvanized finish nails.  They hold
    better than the the shiny finish type.  I had to do a lot of hand
    nailing on my bedroom floor, and the finish nails worked fine.
    
    Bob 

    Well, I have read every reply in this note and I still don't have
    an answer to my problem. 
    
    We are getting ready to move in 2 weeks into a house that has
    hardwood floor in the kitchen and dining room. It looks beautiful
    but I have absolutely no idea how to take care of it. Especially
    from week to week.
    
    How do I "clean" this floor. Do I use a special product or just
    a slightly damp mop or what. I really am confused.
    
    We have 3 boys ages 4-6 so... needless to say its going to get dirty.
    
    What about spills and things, will this harm the floor?
    
    I sure hope someone out there can help. I don't want to ruin
    this beautiful floor.
    
    
    Thanks...Rothel and the wild indians.
    
    
    
    I

A couple of things that we do...

damp mop (not wet mop)

vacuum frequently (those tiny rechargable vacuums are great for picking
up the debris after our 1-4 year olds have finished eating)

Muphy's oil soap

MOST IMPORTANT -- we put protectors on the bottoms of every piece of
furniture that slides on our wood floors.  Even our wooden chairs
quickly started to make small scratches.  We used metal glides, because
our experience is that the nylon ones break, expecially on chairs,
causing an even worse gouge as the nail embedded in the glide embeds
itself into the floor.

We have polyurethane on our wood floors, and water doesn't hurt our
floors if it isn't left to sit.  

	Luck,
	Larry

Don't miss notes 822 (Cleaning Hardwood floors) and 1749 (Hardwood floors in 
Kitchens).

Paul

    why not coat the top with that super thick decoupage polyurethane.
    it would fill in the crevices and leave you with an impenetratable
    top layer for food, spilled drinks, etc.  You will probably need
    to do more than one coat, but it will come out looking like a bartop.
    f
    
    

    thank you both so much!
    
    Now I don't feel so paranoid.
    
    Rothel
    

    I read the notes suggested and found lots of good information
    but...
    
    Last night we went over to look at the house and kind of inspect
    it before we move in on Saturday. I got a good look at the floor
    and it looks like "parquet" floor. ( I think thats the right term).
    It is "squares" of wood. It looked pretty dry.
    
    I asked the man who has been living there for the past 3 years
    how he took care of it. He said he just damped mopped and then
    about once a week put a "special stuff" on it. He told me it
    was "factory finished" (whatever this means). When he showed
    me what he was putting on it, it bowled me over. It was Step
    Saver,the stuff you would put on linolem. Can this possibly
    be right? 
    Wouldn't the Murpheys be better or will it hurt the "factory finish".
    
    Like I said the floor looked really dry and dull.
    
    HELP!
    
    Rothel
    

    Sounds like some of the Bruce brand flooring.  It is pre-finished
    at the factory and you install and enjoy.  You might try contacting
    a local flooring company which carries Bruce Flooring and see if
    they have any "special" solutions or treatments for the floor.
    
    To restore the luster finish I would recommend cleaning the old
    mop-and-glow stuff off with Murphy's Oil Soap or ammonia and then
    rub in a good paste wax and buff.  The wax will have to be reapplied
    periodically depending on wear conditions.  You might look into
    buying an electric floor buffer so that you can maintain your floors.

    
    Bruce does make a floor polish/wax for its wood surfaces....
    for lighter shades, I think its called "lite and brite" and
    for darker shades "dark and rich" or somesuch.  It can be
    purchased at many hardware stores (like Moore's) or at
    lumber yards which deal in the bruce products (somerville,
    friend's, maybe grossmans, certainly builder's square)
    
    deb
    

    
    
    would anyone know of a place in Colorado Springs that carries Bruce
    products?
    
    Rothel
    

    This conference is going to be a great help to this new homeowner.
    
    I've checked all the replies in this topic and, although many replies 
    come close, I don't think my question is specifically answered. So
    here goes.
    
    I just ripped up the wall-to-wall in the dining room, living room and hall
    and found a finished oak floor beneath in pretty good shape. Unfortunately, 
    the installers went crazy with the nails for the tack boards and the 
    staples for the pad. 
    
    They used threaded nails for the tack boards which were tough to get out. 
    I did pretty well protecting the floor during removal, but in about 
    6 places I banged up the floor a bit making a dent and removing some of
    the finish (I don't think it's a particularly good finish in the first
    place). Also, near the kitchen there is a 1 x 6 foot strip that saw heavy 
    wear before the wall-to-wall was installed. It's really discolored
    and would need to be sanded etc.
    
    I know that I should refinish but I don't have the time right now. And, 
    we may be adding on within a year so don't want to do anything too good
    just to have it ripped up or ruined. Anyway, My questions are these:
    
    	- Can you refinish the little patches of floor?
    	- Can you refinish a large section of the floor?
    	- Should I fill the nail holes with a filler? 
    	- How do you know what kind of finish was used?
    
    Thanks for your help.
    
    		Jim
    
    	 	   

    >Should I fill the holes?
    They won't show usually.  They may be a source of dirt so filling
    them would be nice but is not mandatory.
    
    >Can I patch Big Areas?
    If you know what finish is down now, you can try feathering the edges
    of the area to be repaired.  (Feathering is a term which means sanding
    until you get an even slope of the finish from a full coat down
    to no finish)  When feathered, apply new finish in muliple coats
    to bring the total finish thickness up to the old finish.  THe sanded
    area may be a different color because 1) you went back to new wood
    and the old floor has a patina, 2) you were not able to match the
    stain exactly, 3) you have ground in dirt that you were unable to
    remove or clean to match the clean area.

    >Can I patch small areas?
    See above.  All the same thoughts apply.
    
    >How can I tell what kind of finish I have? 
    This is a bit more tricky.  Poly looks like poly but do you have gloss
    that has been worn down or do you have satin finish??  (look in a
    protected area and compare to a worn area)  Varnish and Shellac and be
    determined by rubbing with Laquer thinner.  If it effects the finish it
    is one and not the other. If the finish is not effected, it is the
    other.  I think this has been discussed in
    MOMAX1::ANTIQUES_COLLECTIBLES under finishing techniques or possibly in
    DELNI::WOODWORKING_AND_TOOLS.  Maybe even in this file under the
    keyword WOOD_FINISHES. 

		< Grades of Oak for Hardwood Floors >

	I am in the process of talking to contractors about installing
oak hardwood floors. The way they talk about the grades of wood confuses
me a lot.

	One contractor (Natural Hardwood Floor, Wilmington, MA) says they
use the grade 'CLEAR', which is the best and is not even available in 
most lumber yards. When I asked him if 'CLEAR' means no knots in the wood,
he said no and said 'CLEAR' is better than 'SELECT' because it's cut more
smoothly on the edges (?) and will look better when installed.

	The other contractor (Bob Smith from Smith Floor, Lowell) says
'CLEAR' was an out-dated term in grading wood. In the newer definition,
'SELECT' is better than 'CLEAR'. He also mentioned that two coats of
polyurethan will be sufficient to protect the floor. He doesn't believe
that a coat of sealer is necessary before applying the polyurethan.

	Can anyone out there help me staighten out the 'grades' and
the 'sealer' issues? If anyone have experience with the above two
contractors, can you share it with me? Thanks.

Elaine

    Two questions about refinishing floors that I haven't seen covered
    yet (no pun intended).
    
    	What's the best way to sand in between coats of finish?  I plan
    to use a circular floor buffer with a #000 or #0000 scotchbrite
    pad.  Is this ok or will it leave circular marks?  It's an oak floor.
    
    	I know that satin poly can be put over gloss (I mistakenly bought
    a gallon of gloss Zip- Guard for finishing my stairs this weekend)
    if you dull down the shine but can they be mixed?  The remainder
    of the gallon isn't enough to put the 1st coat on the floor, so,
    can I complete it with satin or should the entire coat be one type?
    Subsequent coats will be all satin.
    
    	Can different manufacturer's poly's be used over one another
    once they are dry?  By dry I mean dry to the touch where you could
    put another coat on, not completely hardened.  For instance Fabulon
    over Zip-Guard?  I like the Zip-Guard but I've only found 1 place
    that sells it in the Nashua area and it's about $32 a gallon.
    
    	Anyone familiar with Fabulon?  They have a new one called Crystal
    Fabulon that comes with a little bottle of hardener.  Unless I find
    Zip-Guard cheaper, this is what I'll use for successive coats. 
    Does it wear well?
    
    	I guess that's 4 questions.  Thanks,
    
    George

    I don't know about the other questions and I also don't remember
    the price last time we bought it but we ALWAYS get our paint and
    wallpaper supplies at Nashua Wallpaper on West Pearl Street in
    beautiful downtown Nashua.
    
    You may save a nickel somewhere else but by the time you count the
    time to shop, gas and what not I have never found a better more
    quality conscious store ever.  When there's a problem they're right
    there to solve it - no questions.
    
    Highly recommended.  In dealing with a number of stores since '73
    with various projects around the house I haven't found better.

    You can mix gloss and satin to get something shinier than satin, but
    not as bad as gloss.  I don't know about different brands, but I don't
    see the problem.  Have fun.  We just spent the weekend doing the living
    room over.
    
    Elaine
    

        "Varathane - One-Day Professional Wood Finishing System (tm)"
	
       	Just wanted to put a reply on the type of clear finish that I have 
put on my newly installed hardwood floors in my living room, dining room and 
hallway of my split entry house......

	With this being the most traveled section of the house and with 3 
boys, wife, dog and cat, I needed a finish that I could apply with a minimal 
drying time so I would not have to send everyone off to a motel for the 
weekend while I finished the floors! So I tried the "Varathane - One-Day 
Professional Wood Finishing System (tm)". This finish is specially formulated 
to dry super fast, with the normal drying time (dependent on temperature, 
humidity, etc.) is one (1) hour to the touch! - and three (3) hours between 
coats! I was able to apply two (2) coats in one night (as with 3 teenager's, 
they never go to bed before midnight!), with the first coat put down by 
1:00 am, with a thinned mixture of 15% mineral spirits (used a mohair roller) 
and back up at 4:00 am for the second.... We had minimal travel during the 
day, so I sanded between the coats and applied the 3rd and 4th coat the next 
night.

	This worked out great, with minimal inconvenience to my family (boy 
was I tired!) and the finish is just beautiful (I used the high gloss finish,
as the wife and I like a high shine), it has a more luxurious shine 
than another two rooms done with Zip finish and a brush a few years ago.

	The Varathane cost a few $$ more than other leading finishes, but the
savings, time etc. is worth the few $$ spent for the fast drying product. It 
can be found at Channel Hardware @$36.99/gal or Builders Square @$34.00/gal 
(note: K-Mart (yep) has only quarts @12.95)

    	Also for a free brochure and any questions, you can call the company,
(They also make other finishes (indoor/outdoor and marine), stains and enamel
Varathane Colors in Plastic):

		The Flecto Company, Inc.
		P.O. Box 12955
		Oakland, California 94604-2955

		800.6.FLECTO
		800.635.3286 (same as above, but letters=numbers!)

    How was the smell?  Mu experience with any urethane type of finishes
    that I have used is that you need a lot of ventilation.  Was the
    odor tolerable?
    
    Chuck

    Is the mohair roller you mention something special for finishing
    hardwood floors.....I haven't seen or heard of this before!  Who
    sells them.  Did you use it for all four coats or only the first...
    how did you keep from getting air bubbles in the finish which seems
    to be a frequent problem with roller applications??

(RE: 2.135)

	The odor was tolerable, as this was done in mid May and all the windows
could be open. The actual odor was only noticed by visitors for about a week
after I finished the floors, but they never complained, only that they could
notice (by smell and sight) that I finished the floors.....


(RE: 2.136)

	I picked the mohair roller ($3.00 +/-) up at Builders Square 
(recommended by the sales person as he was trained by Flecto Co. on putting 
the finish down).... It is a short nap roller and I used it for all 4
applications. I had minimal amount of air bubbles as the product levels out
real nice. Also the in-between sanding and 4 coats did a great job.



                                                                           

    I'm removing wall-to-wall carpet from my new old house to expose 
    the hardwood floors.  They look like their in decent shape so I'm 
    not going to redue them now.  What I want to due is wash them down 
    and wax? them.  I was wondering what type of solution to use 
    (e.g., Murphy's Oil Soap, etc...)  Also, should I wet mop or rent 
    a buffer machine?  What should I use to plug the nail holes from 
    the wall-to-wall?
    
    Thank you,
    
    KC

    
    I would like to pull out the W2W carpet in one of our bedrooms and put
    in a hardwood floor. This would go over the plywood floor already
    there. I had seen the Bruce product (I think it was Bruce) on This Old
    House once and it looked easy. Tounge and groove planks that require no
    sanding or finishing. Does anyone have any experience with this sort of
    product? Is it OK to put this over plywood floors? 
    
    Dave Kinney

    Last fall I installed Bruce prefinished flooring (3/4" solid red oak)
    in our new master bedroom.  You install it just like regular unfinished
    flooring, with a power nailer and a lot of sweat 8-) .  I put ours down
    over the plywood subfloor with no problem.  It sure was nice having an
    instant floor (well, 3 days actually to install it).  
    
    I am very happy with the results, although I probably would use
    conventional flooring (that I could refinish) in higher traffic areas. 
    
    Bob

    
    		Well, I just read all 141 replies and didn't see the
    answer I am looking for.  Recently on New Yankee Workshop, Norm
    stated that he used sanding sealer on furniture.  My question is
    would this work on an oak floor?  
    
    		The flooring is piled in the garage, with no finish
    on it what so ever.
    
    		Next question, can I do the floor (coats one and two)
    and have the floor put down and then put the finish coat on?  Or
    should I do all three (or four if I use the sealer) coats when the
    floor is down?
    
    		Thanks for your help.   Linda 

                        (REQUEST FOR A BASIC STEP BY STEP)
    
    Hello out there in hardwood land!! I was wondering if one or some
    of you experts could put together a step by step process for
    refinishing oak hardwood floors. I have a friend who wants to do
    this and she asked me if I knew anyone soooooo here I am!!!
    
    Thanks!!!
    Mig.

Reply: 2.142

>>>    Recently on New Yankee Workshop, Norm
>>>    stated that he used sanding sealer on furniture.  My question is
>>>    would this work on an oak floor?  

	I don't know about the sanding sealer on the floor.... but if I was
using the finish that I have used in note:2.134 ("Varathane - One-Day 
Professional Wood Finishing System (tm)" thinned by 15% mineral spirits for the
first coat) I would stay with it through all coats for best results. 


>>>    
>>>    		The flooring is piled in the garage, with no finish
>>>    on it what so ever.
>>>    
>>>    		Next question, can I do the floor (coats one and two)
>>>    and have the floor put down and then put the finish coat on?  Or
>>>    should I do all three (or four if I use the sealer) coats when the
>>>    floor is down?
    
    	
	If the flooring has not been put down, it is recommended installing the
flooring first then finishing by sanding after the installation (because each 
piece of oak is slightly different in height, so you must sand first to insure 
the same height for each piece of wood or else your floor will be uneven, also
the installation gun might mark up some of the surface, so these marks must
also be sanded), then do the sealing.....

    
      Sanding sealer is fine for a first coat, especially on an open-grain
    wood like oak. It is NOT recommended as a finish coat because it
    is not HARD enough. Also, you would normally only use it as a first
    coat on *bare* wood and not at all once the wood has at least one
    coat of ANYTHING on it.
    	I mistakenly used sanding sealer to finish some windows once - and 
    it LOOKS nice, but it scratches VERY easily (like with a fingernail)
    
    					Kenny

    Response to Mig. in Note 2.143
    
    If you want a step by step demonstration of how to refinish a wooden
    floor, I have a couple of suggestions for you.  Both are on video
    tape.  The first is the This Old House Home Improvement Video, it
    has a section devoted to refinishing wooden floors.  This tape is
    probably about $29 (I'm not sure, because I got it as a "bribe"
    during WGBH's Grovel Week last year).  The other tape is by Hometime,
    these are step by step videos marketed by Chevrolet.  There is a
    separate tape for each topic and they range from 30 to 60 minutes
    each.  There is one on refinishing floors, and these tapes cost
    about $10.  I have several of them on various topics and they are
    well done.  They are available in most home centers.
    
    Good Luck,
    Chuck

    re .-1:  the Hometime tape is very good, and starts out covering
    refinishing a floor (then goes into new floor installation).  Spags
    (Olde Schoolhouse) has them.  Somerville also has them.
    
    A quick rundown is:
    
    Preparation is to remove absolutely everything from the room, including
    drapes, etc.  Then hang sheets of plastic in all doorways - dust will
    go everywhere!
    
    The suggest that you remove the floor  molding, but this is not always
    possible - some builders put the molding in BEFORE the flooring, in
    which case just leaving the molding there.  
    
    Rent a floor sander (Taylor's carries them, and the paper).  You make a
    couple of passes over the floor, first with a very coarse paper, then
    progressively finer.  You can also rent an edger, which is a rotary
    sander on small wheels - the large belt sander cannot get up close to
    the wall to do the edges.  I had misgivings in the end about the rotary
    sander, and felt that a small belt sander would just as good a job. 
    The first pass will remove the  existing finish real fast.  After that,
    what you are essentially doing is undoing the effect pass 1 had on the
    surface of the floor - it removed the finish, but scratched the heck
    out of it!  Each pass (there are 3 alltogether) uses a finer paper
    (although the finest is about on par with the coarses you use in most
    other applications).  A lot of the work here is cleaning up between
    passes - the dust will be all over the place, and you want a clean
    floor each time else the paper will clog up immediately.
    
    Once it is smooth again, you do any staining you planned on, and then
    start the polyurethaning.  This is when you take the sander(s) back to
    Taylors (or wherever) and pick up the buffer, along with some screens
    and steel wool pads.  The screens look like big (17") round drywall
    sanding screens.  After the stain, you put down the first layer of
    poly.  Best thing to use is a lamb's wool applicator (only place I
    found them was at Coldwell's in Berlin), which fits onto the end of a
    push broom handle.  Some folks suggest thinning the first coat with
    paint thinner, others say it does not matter, so consult your local
    clergy on this point.  Let it dry overnight - this is where shelling
    out a few more bucks for the fast drying stuff helps out - I used both
    Minwax and Fabulon; Fabulon's idea of 'satin' was flatter than
    Minwax's, and was waht I used on the final coat.  After the first coat
    is dry, go over it with the buffer and a screen.  If you were not in
    the service (ie, Uncle Sam), you may have never operated one of these
    before.  They are not maneuvered in a manner with is intuitive.  The
    are also powerful enough that if you mess up, it will mess up you walls
    real well for you.  The buffer is steered not by left/right motions,
    but rather up/down motions.  Play with it in the middle of the floor
    first.  Don;t panic by the amount of mess it makes with the screen -
    only the first pass makes the mess.
    
    Now that the floor is smooth, and poly'ed, it is time to fill in any
    cracks with putty.  If there were big spots to fill, you might have
    already filled them BEFORE THE SECOND SANDING.  After that, do not do
    any putty work, or it will show up when you stain.  After the poly is
    down, however, the grain is filled, and the putty will not show up much
    at all, so this is when you do minor touchups.  For refinishing, there
    is hopefully not much.  (the viedo coveres repair during refinishing
    also).
    
    After the floor is smooth again (the screen smooths out the roughness
    of the poly on top of the formerly open grain of the flooring), do the
    2nd coat - no thinning this time of the poly.  When it is dry, buff it
    with the steel wool to make it smooth.
    
    If you were a contractor building a new house, this is when you would
    go home and send the bill.  They all seem to think 2 coats is enough. 
    maybe they wear silk slippers in their homes, and have no Children (but
    we know they have kids - they are sending them all to Harvard on our
    money), I don't really know, but there is no way on God's green earth
    that 2 coats is enough, ESPECIALLY if you have kids.  So just keep
    putting down Poly, and buffing with Steel wool, until you sick and
    tired of it all (or until your head starts rubbing on the ceiling). I
    just put down a new floor, and did 4 coats.  I know a lot of people
    that bought new homes, and the first thing they did before moving was
    to go in and put down 2 or 3 more coats over the builder's 2 coats.  So
    long as you let it dry in between and do the buffing in between, there
    is no known disadvantage of extra coats.  If you are not refinishing
    the entire floor, be careful at the "boundary" points, so that the
    demarkation is not too noticable, either in color (stain), finish
    (poly), or "surface height" (# of coats).  Your goal would be for the
    floor to be level across this point.  The hardest part in doing this,
    though, is matching the stain.
    
    Cost for the rentals is about $200, including the paper (Taylor's does
    it on a consigment basis, for both the paper and the buffer pads: they
    give you a case full of various sizes, and then you bring back what you
    did not use).  Poly is around $20/gal, with 1 gal covering aorund
    350-400 sq feet.
    
    don't forget the earplugs.  some sort of nose covering (mask, kercheif,
    ...) is a good idea on the sanding, else you'll be sneezing and
    coughing up sawdust for a month.  Earplugs can be found (I guess - mine
    came from a friend in a DEC manufacturing facility) at any sports
    store - the little things you roll up and stick in and let expand work
    just fine.
    
    Overall, it is not something to be afraid of.  it IS work - the Sander
    and buffer will vibrate your arms right off it seems.  All the horror
    stories about using the sander should be listened too, but are mostly
    exaggerated - just be careful, and take your time, and you will do for
    a couple of hundred $ what a contractor will want 4 figures for.
    
    -reed

    re .139
    
    I installed a Bruce pre-finished hardwood floor in my hallway this
    May. I used the 3/8" laminated tongue & grove type.
    
    I purchased it from Builders Sq. in Nashua. The only problem was
    finding the reducer strip for the edges to the vinyl floors. Make
    sure that you get all you want at the same time you get the flooring.
    
    The laminated flooring is glue down. I made sure the sub floor was
    secure by using dri-wall screws through the sub floor into the joists
    every 4-6". The glue is very easy to lay - get the Bruce tool its
    cheap and can be thrown out on completion. The biggest "problem"
    I ran into was letting the glue set. You spread a decent size working
    area - let it set 45mins to 1hr then install the flooring. Working
    in a hallway you only have a very narrow work area and you must
    be able to reach as far as you have put the glue - so I wasted time
    (read the paper, have coffee) 
    
    I put in 80 Sq ft in approx 5 hrs. including waiting time. 
    
    Must haves!  Very sharp saw. I used a power miter box with new carbide
    blade, for cutting the pieces to length. Table saw for ripping the
    last pieces. 
    
    The final appearance is great. My wife loves it. It is holding up
    well most marks just wipe off. I still have to give it its final
    buffing. 
    
    Remember this is a hallway. In a bedroom it would be excellent.
    
    David.
     

    RE .-1
    
    
    What is the reducer strip you refered to?
    
    
    Dave Kinney

    
    
    
    The reducer stirp is for the edge of the floor where you join another
    floor that has a finished height lower than the hardwood. ie.
    at a doorway to a room with vinyl. The Reducer strip tapers from
    the thickness of the floor to approx 1/8" so there is a nice finished
    edge.
    
    If the edge to the hardwood is not vinyl then you dont need the
    reducer strip. 
         
    
                 Sort of like this - excuse the VT drawing.
    
    
     -----------------|-
                      |  \                                  
                      -|   \
    flooring           |     \  Reducer strip
                      -        \
                      |          \
    ------------------|-----------|---------------------
       sub floor                                         
    
    When I got mine they had to be special ordered from Bruce.
    
    Dvid.
    
    
    
    

.147>  I had misgivings in the end about the rotary
.147>  sander, and felt that a small belt sander would just as good a job. 
    
    I had similar misgivings.  I had never used either an edger or a belt
    sander for the job, but I was advised by a more experienced DIYer that
    using an edger is hellish work, and what's more, for the price of
    renting an edger you could _buy_ a cheap belt sander.  Based on entries
    here and in WOODWORKING_AND_TOOLS, I didn't want a cheap belt sander,
    but the image stuck with me; so when I rented a big drum sander, I also
    rented a little belt sander rather than a rotary edger.
    
    Using a rotary edger may be just as hellish as reported for all I know;
    I can report that using a small belt sander for the same job is pretty
    hellish in its own right.  In desperation, I found that my 1/3-sheet
    pad sander was a much better tool for the job, especially when loaded
    with scrap 36-grit pieces from the sheet the drum sander demolished.
    
    If I had it to do again, I would probably go for the edger.  It couldn't 
    be much worse.

                             re:  .147
                                
    Thanks a lot Reed!! I'm sure this will be a big help!!
    
    Regards,
    Mig.

    Is there a method other than refinishing an entire wood floor to
    remove spots of paint.   I don't have the time right now to undertake
    sanding and refinishing them right now but would like to get the
    spots off to make the appearance look nicer.
    
    Thank you,
    
    kc

    
    RE: .153
    
    You could try removing the paint spots with a heat gun and scraper.
    Set the heat gun on low and be careful, so it doesn't damage or burn 
    the rest of the floor finish. 
    

    RE: .153
    
    If the spots are latex paint, there are several commercial products
    on the market for removing dried latex.  "Oops" and "Goof-Off" are
    2 brand names that come to mind.  Check at your local paint store.
    
    Also, if the floor has a polyurethane finish on it, lacquer thinner
    will remove the dried paint without harming the finish.  (At least
    it didn't hurt mine.)
    
    Jim

    I have a question about refinishing my floors.  I have been working on
    the master bedroom.  We have done all the usual things with an old
    house - fixing windows, rewiring, etc.  But we have also been stripping
    the stain off the existing woodwork and plan on refinishing the floors. 
    Now, I understand that I will want to sand the floor down.  But when it
    comes to refinishing it, I am still confused about the exact stuff to
    put down.  I really don't want, at this point, to put any stain on the
    floor or the woodwork, as I like it a lighter color.  The wood was
    really dark before (from age, I assume).
    
    When I was at Builder's Square, I saw some stuff called Varathane.  It
    said you could even skate on it.  Now, would I just want to do all the
    appropriate sanding and then put something like Varathane down?  I have
    heard about Watco, polyurethane, and others.  I am somewhat confused on
    this point.  Also, specific brands would be helpful.  Would this also
    be useable for the woodwork around the doors and windows?
    
    Ed..
    

 >>>   When I was at Builder's Square, I saw some stuff called Varathane.  It
 >>>   said you could even skate on it.  Now, would I just want to do all the
 >>>   appropriate sanding and then put something like Varathane down?  I have
 >>>  heard about Watco, polyurethane, and others.  I am somewhat confused on
 >>>   this point.  Also, specific brands would be helpful.  Would this also
 >>>   be useable for the woodwork around the doors and windows?


	See note # 2.134, this was for a new floor. But if you want a lighter 
        finish do not put any stain on first. I was (and still am) very happy
        with the Varathane finish.....Also can be used on doors/windows

I will be installing 4" tongue/groove maple in two rooms totalling 400
sq ft.    How much time does it take for installation and sanding?

I purchased the wood from NE Hardwood. Some of the pieces are over 
12 ft long. Since one room is 11 ft long, seems like installing 
a single piece with the right length should make it go faster. 

Gim

    I didn't see this in any previous notes, however my builder suggested
    using a heavy weight paper like "red roll paper" over the subfloor
    before laying the hardwood.  This is to reduce the likelihood of
    the hardwood "sqeuking". The paper must be breathable since you
    don't want a vapor barrier, so he cautioned against using anything
    like Tyvek housewrap (I had Tyvek leftover that I was looking to
    use).
    
    I got the red roll paper (36" wide) at Plywood Ranch in Acton for
    about $7.  (The leftover paper is great for kids painting murals
    or to use as floor covering when painting walls/ceilings)

The powernailer rents for $22/day from Warren Rental in Acton.
Rental for 4 days = weekly rate.

Nails are $16 for about 200 sq. ft. (assuming 2.25" wood).

>                -< Cover Subfloor With Heavy-Weight Roll Paper >-
>    I didn't see this in any previous notes, however my builder suggested
>    using a heavy weight paper like "red roll paper" over the subfloor
>    before laying the hardwood.  This is to reduce the likelihood of
>    the hardwood "sqeuking". The paper must be breathable since you
>    don't want a vapor barrier, so he cautioned against using anything
>    like Tyvek housewrap...

What you refer to is called "red rosin paper."  It's also used as an air
barrier between the sheathing and siding of exterior walls.

BUT, Tyvek is breathable too!  It's used as an air barrier, not a vapor
barrier, because it's like Gore-Tex - it passes water vapor
but not air or water drops.
I don't know why Tyvek couldn't be used on a floor.

- tom]

I did 230 sq ft this weekend. It took significantly longer than I
expected.

While not scientific, this should give you a idea of the time it 
takes:

------------------------------------------------------------------------

First timer		+ 25%
Oak			+ 0
Maple			+ 10%		(I had to set 50% of the nails
				         by hand)
Rectangular room	+ 0
Room with cabinets, etc + 20%		(lot's of fitting)

Wide stock		+ 10%
2.25" stock		+ 0


Base square footage rate:   20 sq ft/hour = 3 minutes/sq ft.

In my case it took:

First timer		+ 25%
Maple			+ 10%
Wide stock		+ 10%
Room with cabinets, etc + 20%
-----------------------------
		          65%

	230 Sq ft x (1 + .65) x 3 minutes/ sq ft =  18.9 hours.

    
    I haven't seen this really covered in many of the other notes about
    Hardwood floor in various area of this conference. I have two
    questions concerning installing hardwood oak flooring:
    
               1. What is the paper that is laid under the flooring 
                  used for and is it really needed?
    
               2. I would like to not use the flooring paper and 
                  use a combination of adhesive and regular flooring nails 
                  to install the flooring ( I hate squeeky floors). 
                  Is this advisable?
    
    
    DS
                      

    Why don't you want to use the rosin paper? It is really rather cheap.
    The roll I got to do my floor was about $6. and I have a good 3/4 of
    it left after doing ~200 sq ft. (wanna buy it? it's just sitting in
    my garage...)
    
    B
    

    Squeaks are usually due to the subfloor not being nailed securely to
    the joists.  Before you lay the hardwood.  Go over you subfloor and use
    screws to fasten it down.
    
    Tongue and groove flooring, properly nailed, with paper over a secure
    subfloor will not squeak.  The adhesive really isn't necessary.  In
    fact, I would worry that the adhesive would not allow the floor to
    expand and contract with humidity changes.
                                               
    
    Bob

    
    Under the wall to wall carpet, below the padding was a hardwood floor
    waiting to be uncovered.  The only problem was the padding.  This 
    padding was the typical padding you find under wall to wall carpeting.
    Orange in color and comprised of small pillows.  Unfortunately, it had
    changed from rubber into a clay like substance.   Only removable via a 
    scrapper.  So you can only imagine how much fun it was in trying to 
    remove it all without ruining the wood below.   
     Has anyone run into a similar situation when restoring their hardwood 
    floor??  What about the residue?  Any comments or suggestions?    
   

    There was that crap and the black residue from the linoleum tile
    that was on my floor when I 'uncovered' it.
    
    The guy who did my floors (here in NJ - sorry) was able to get it
    all off when he sanded them down.
    
    I don't know how - packed up the family and left town on Friday
    morning when he arrived and came home Sunday afternoon to done floors.
     My neighbors told me his crew worked till 10:00 Friday night and
    midnite Saturday night!  About 1000 ft-2 worth of floors done, stained
    and Swedish finished and oak 1/4 round edging installed for $2,500.

    I had tried to get it off and the only thing that worked for me
    was a very sharp paint scraper.
    
    	-Barry-
    

    I can not comment about the black residue, but as for the orange gunk 
    this was how we did it.  For lack of a better method, we scrapped the 
    floor as clean as possible then wiped it off by hand with (get a load 
    of this) automotive hand cleaner.  This was purely trial and error. 
    ( I don't know if this was the best thing to use, but it worked.)
    
    The dining room was the first room we did (by hand).  After realizing 
    that there had to be an easier way.  We rented a buffing machine.  The 
    salesman at Taylor rental recommended steel wool pads.  Ouch!!  But
    we followed his advice and used them.  The buffer really made the job
    go quick.  The floors look great.  The floors are in good shape and
    don't need to be refinished, but to complete the job I think that we 
    will have it done.     
                                          
      
    

Note that if you are refinishing a hardwood floor, it doesn't matter if you
scratch it while getting the gunk off.  Coarse sandpaper in the drum
sander will take that off with no problem.  In fact, if you aren't careful,
you can do worse damage to your floor with the drum sander than you could
ever do with a paint scraper.

You know what's my nominee for grossest hardwood floor job?  It's when
you have to scrape off a carpet pad that's been cemented to the floor
by countless "pet stains".   The guy who did the floors in my friends'
house used some kind of bleach to try to hide the stains (which, unlike
scratches, could not simply be sanded off).  It didn't work very well,
so my friends had to use a strategically placed rug.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    I'm considering putting down an oak (or other wood) floor in
    the kitchen.  After seeing the prices of precut/finished beams
    I considered the possibility of making my own "from scratch".
    
    What are the pros and cons of using 3/4" cabinet plywood and
    cutting it into 2-3" wide strips then cutting tongue-and-groove
    on a table saw?
    
    Is there a type of plywood better suited to do this?
    
    The floor is now 3/4" plywood under the kitchen formica.  This
    floor, even though only 10 years old, is loose and squeaky.
    Should this be glued down to the beams or can it be removed
    and the oak be used by itself?  (I'm thinking that it should
    have a good base to glue/nail to.)
    
    Any thoughts?
    
    Charlie
    

    
    
    	...cabinet plywood uses a very, very thin veneer. That veneer
    	would never hold up under foot. And if eventually you needed
    	resand and refinish the floor, you'd be threw that veneer in
    	no time.
    
    	Gary
    

    This sounds like an extremely labor intensive job to tongue and groove
    all the strips yourself.  You also have to remember that there is
    a tongue and groove and the short ends also (the 2-3" part).
    
    I don't know how thick the outer layer of veneer is on cabinet plywood
    but I would venture to guess that it's not very thick.  If you nicked
    or sanded your floors too much, you might go thru the veneer.
    
    When an oak floor is laid, it is laid onto of the subflooring (usually
    with rosin paper in between).  I have never seen oak flooring laid
    directly onto joists.  I don't think the standard issue stuff (3/4")
    is sturdy enough.  I have seen T&G floors laid onto joists such that
    it forms the ceiling of the room below (i.e. Lindal Cedar Homes) but
    I think those planks may be a little bit more substantial (only a
    guess though).
    
    -al

    Isn't there a plywood made that would work?
    
    Thanks for your input, Charlie
    

    
    
    	....honestly, I doubt it.
    
    	Gary
    

    
    	If there was, it would be marketed as such.  Plywood will not hold
    up for a long period of time under the abuse of chairs, etc that are
    constantly moved.  The plys will eventually start to splinter or
    seperate from the next layer - plus, as mentioned, you will sand right
    through it before you know it.  
    	Bite the bullet and go for regular flooring.  Ask if someone can
    custom cut or order a different wood if oak is too expensive.  Ask about 
    yellow birch (pretty stuff), ash (looks great, but splintery to work), 
    maple, and southern yellow pine (if you like the golden yellow color), 
    
    Eric

>    Isn't there a plywood made that would work?
    
No way.  Absolutely no way.  Floors are made out of solid hardwood for a 
reason.  As a matter of fact, the tongue of the tongue and groove is offset 
toward the bottom of each piece so that there is even more wood available for 
wear than if the tongue were centered.  You just couldn't make plywood with a 
veneer thick enough.

It is, of course, possible to do all the tongue-and-grooving yourself on real 
hardwood, but it's a lot of work.  And oak (particularly) is nearly as cheap 
per board foot as flooring as it is just plain, because so much oak flooring is 
manufactured.  You would probably spend about a week (full time) filling your
shop with sawdust to save about $20. 

Paul

 >   custom cut or order a different wood if oak is too expensive.  Ask about 
 >   yellow birch (pretty stuff), ash (looks great, but splintery to work), 
 >   maple, and southern yellow pine (if you like the golden yellow color), 
 >   
 >   Eric
    
    The pine sounds good for the family room floor in the unfinished
    basement.  It's on slab, btw.  It might be ok in the kitchen too.
    How durable would the pine be after it was finished?  Would afew
    coats of polyurethane give it enough hardness to take some abuse?
    
    Do lumber yards usually carry pine planks cut for flooring or do
    you have to cut it yourself?
    
    Charlie
    
    

    The closest you get to plywood in hardware flooring is the laminated
    strip and parquet flooring sold by companies like Bruce.
    
    __Rich

    Before you start putting down the new hardwood flooring, you need to
    check out the floor squeeking problems.  Plywood subflooring is fairly
    standard and should be fine, but if not properly installed you will
    just add a new layer to an old problem.  Personally, I don't have
    experience at solving this, but it needs to be fixed to get a good
    floor you will be happy with.

    
    	Re: .7
    
    	Charlie,
    
    		Southern yellow (long leaf yellow) pine is VERY hard wood,
    almost like oak.  It is strong enough that many good sized wooden boats 
    down south have southern yellow pine keels.  Thus its strong and
    flexible.  It is definitely tough enough take a lot of abuse, so a few
    coats of polyurethane would only make it prettier while you go about
    abusing it through the years.

    		I live in Maine, so I usually go right to the lumber mills 
    for wood, where you may be going to a lumber yard.  You might have to 
    shop for yellow pine flooring, or have a custom mill do it for you.  I 
    just got a price list from A.E. Sampson and Son, Rt 90 PO Box 1010, Warren 
    Maine 04864 and they mill it.  You can find it closer I'm sure, but for 
    comparison, their current price for 5 1/8 face yellow pine flooring is 
    $1.26 BF, including waste.  They also include a two page Hardwood 
    Flooring Information if you ask for lumber and flooring prices.  *GOOD 
    INFO* on flooring lumber and stabilizing the wood before installation!!  

		As someone else mentioned, I would not make flooring myself, 
    unless it was something I just had to get out of my system.  Mills are set
    up with four sided planers to get a consistent size for the whole lot of 
    flooring.  Consistent size helps installation and produces a good looking 
    finished job.
	
		The slab will require different installation techniques, but 
    Modern Carpentry or another popular book will help you figure how you want
    to do it.  I would run rot-resistant (cypress, white oak, etc) lumber
    strips on the slab, and fasten the pine to it, perhaps after sealing the
    lower side of the flooring.  Moisture is a potential problem there, but
    easily worked around.

    		I would finish any flooring, for slowing down or evening-out 
    the rapid moisture exchange or drying, depending on the season - my wood 
    heat dries the house out in winter, and as I live on a stream, there's
    plenty of moisture from April till October.  How you finish it is a
    matter of preference, but Watco oil, Penetrol, and non varnish finishes
    are what I like.  Varnishes are beautiful, but someday you will have to
    redo it, or live with the worn/chipped spots.  Its a big messy job to
    sand and re-varnish, but it will be many years before its necessary.
    
    		Hope this helps,
    Eric 
    

    re: .9
    
    I thought of removing the plywood and using it for the roofing
    on a barn and using the more dense particle board for the floor.
    Is this a better material than the regular plywood?  It sounds
    like a herd of elk when the kid run across the room overhead.
    
    Charlie
    

    re: 10
    
    Thanks for the info, Eric.
    I didn't realize that there were pines that tough.  Moisture shouldn't
    be a problem in Colorado since it's been called the "hand-cream capitol
    of the world".  The floor should be sealed anyway, though.
    
    This variety of pine probably may not grow here but I'll check it out.
    There's a small sawmill in the closest town but they only do rough cut
    so Colorado Springs or Denver should have a good outlet for this
    flooring.  The price looks great for this flooring too.
    
    Thanks again, Charlie
    

RE: .11

    The current issue of Fine Homebuilding has an article about soundproofing
    walls and ceilings.  If you are going to rip up the floor anyway, there may
    be something you can do about all the noise.

- Mark

    Personally, I'd never put down a wooden floor in the kitchen.
    Kitchen floors tend to get an extreme amount of abuse, and
    require much more frequent cleaning, etc than floors in other
    rooms.  In my opinion, wood just will not hold up.  I think
    it will get grungy pretty fast.
    
    If you must put down a wooden floor, at least avoid oak
    and choose a wood that doesn't have an open grain.

    .14
    
    I disagree with the comments on the wood floor for a kitchen. I
    have one in mine which is oak. It is much more durable than the
    vinyl flooring I had earlier. It is not difficult to clean and takes
    very little maintenance. It is also very rich looking. Bottom line
    is don't be afraid to put wood flooring in a kitchen.
    
    Regards,
    
    Dean

    	I was at Grossman's in Salem, NH this past week and was looking
    for a few scraps of red oak. None to be had. BUT....they have three
    bundles of red oak flooring that was cancelled by a customer. They
    will not sell the strips but are selling the bundles. There's enough
    to do an 8 x 12 room if that's enough for you. The pieces are rough
    cut so you'd have to do just a bit of sanding prior to laying, but
    the pieces are random lengths. Bundles were originally $48.50 each,
    now $12.50.
    
    Ken

    RE: .11
    
    I wouldn't use particle board for your subflooring.  First off it
    doesn't hold up well to water or moisture.  Particle board also has
    a tendency to sag over time.
    
    -al

    re: back a few
    
    thanks for the bit about the sound proofing article!
    
    > will not sell the strips but are selling the bundles. There's enough
    > to do an 8 x 12 room if that's enough for you. The pieces are rough
    > cut so you'd have to do just a bit of sanding prior to laying, but
    > the pieces are random lengths. Bundles were originally $48.50 each,
    > now $12.50.
    
    Will they deliver to Colorado? ;*)  But, out of curiosity, how many
    bundles does it take to do an 8 x 12 room? (Or how many $$$$ to do
    the job?)
    
    Thanks, Charlie
    
    

    re: red oak at Grossman's.
    Just called. It's all gone.
    

    For the squeeks I suggest a very large number of screws into the
    beams/joists or whatever.
    
    Not being an expert (but I've seen it being done in my new place this
    week), I'd use long enough screws to go >=1 1/2 inches into the joist
    and space them every foot.  May not need that many, but I'd sure hate
    to use too few and find out later.  Naturally this is the time to rent
    a screw gun with an auto feed magazine.  Don't have to take up the plyW
    or anything (like with glue etc).  
    
    Incidently, particle board is standard in 'modern' floors...but plywood
    or planks are probably better.  as someone said, more strength...
    With the right glue, there should be no water problem (like indoor
    versus outdorr plywood).
    
    

    RE:-1
    
    The squeaks aren't the only problem with the floor.  The floor
    "gives" under you sometimes.  This is 3/4 plywood, looks like
    2 rough sides, that was also used for forms when the basement
    walls were poured. (They have holes drilled in them, apparently
    for bolts to hold the forms together.
    
    Fixing the squeaks in the main floor should be easy without taking up the
    carpet *if* the plwood sheets can be secured from the ceilingless
    basement.  I thought about glueing the sheets to the beams and
    placing heavy furniture on them while the glue dries.
    
    We'll have to live with the top floor noise until the carpet is
    replaced since I don't really want to remove it until then.
    
    If and when we take up the carpet on either floor, does anyone
    know what grade of plywood is good (strong, quiet) for a floor?
    What could be done to take away the "give"?
    
    I mentioned in a earlier note that the flooring could be used
    in a barn if a better grade of plywood would help in the floor.
    
    Charlie

    
    	re: how much wood needed, how many $$$'s
    
    	I did our family room, 12x12 area. The cost was about $400. (I
    think, its been a while...) 
    
    	You must remember to  order 25% over what you need. This covers the
    fact that you are paying for the tounge sticking out of the wood,
    although it does not provide any more actual floor surface. Also, the
    25% figures in a little bit of waste. Some pieces come too warped to 
    use, or checked (too rough), or narrow, or chipped on the outside.
    
    	So I ended up getting 196sq ft when the room is only 144. 

Two questions on hardwood floors that don't appear to be addressed from keyword
index:

	o	I want a light colored floor and was looking at maple as a 
		choice for a couple of reasons - it looks nice and it's not
		real expensive.

		Now that Parlee lumber is selling milled flooring in multiple
		types of hardwoods and doesn't seem to be too concerned with
		pricing them differently, I find I can also get Black Birch
		flooring for the same price as maple.  They gave me a sample and
		it looks real close to the maple, but has a little more grain
		in it.

		Does anyone have any experience with birch floors, both pros
		and cons?

	o	I'm going to be putting down a LOT of flooring, around 1500
		board feet and plan on using a nailer.  My thoughts are that
		it's gonna take quite a while and was wondering if anybody has
		ever looked into buying a nailer rather than the typical
		approach of renting one.  If so, how much do they cost and where
		can you get them?

-mark

    My opinion (others may disagree): for all practical purposes, birch
    and maple are interchangable.  Birch may have a slightly more
    pronounced grain, in general, but for any specific piece of birch
    you can probably find a piece of maple to correspond, if you look
    around long enough.
    (My specialty is metalworking, so you probably ought to get the
    opinions of some of the woodworking gurus before you decide!)

The birch and maple are almost interchangeable, but not quite.  Maple has more 
pronounced rays, and many pieces will show the rays as little flecks - looks 
nice.  Also, maple has more "depth" to it, meaning, that you will find more 
pieces with a shimmer to them, like tiger maple.  Birch does tend to have a 
more pronounced grain, though.  Purely a matter of taste.  The maple is also a 
bit harder, but the difference in wear won't be noticable in your 
grandchildren's lifetime.

Just rent a nailer.  The things are ridiculously expensive for all their 
simplicity.  If you have another person working with you, you should be able to 
put down all that flooring in a weekend.  I did a 400 sq.ft. room by myself in 
one day with plenty of time to spare.

Paul

    
    I have heard that there are may be problems in the way birch takes
    stain and paint.  I know someone that stripped the paint off some birch
    trim with the idea that she would stain it.  She couldn't get the paint
    completely off because it had soaked into the grain. She experimented
    with stains and a "wash" (also known as "antiquing"), but finally gave
    up and repainted.
    
    It sounds to me like you would have no problem for a floor, as long 
    as you don't intend to stain it.  If you are thinking of staining it
    I would probably try staining a piece, before putting a floor down.
    
    -tm
    

    
    
    	...my 2 cents. Call Palmer and Parker Woods in Tewksbury. With
    	the quanity you're looking for, you may find them to be cheaper.
    	They are much larger than Parlee. All their stuff is kilned
    	dried.
    
    	Gary
    
    

My brother-in-law, who's a contracter up in Maine, build his own house and used
birch flooring throughout the downstairs.  It looks REAL NICE.  My experience is
that the Birch has a bit more variation in color than maple.

    Your basic power nailer (I think that's the brand name) is in the
    $200-$300 range.
    
    There are newer models which use compressed air and shoot staples
    rather than the cut nails that the power nailer uses.
    
    A place that sells these is a big tool supply place in Worcester. The
    way to get there if you're heading west is to go past Spags on RT9,
    up the big hill and take the left fork at the top.  It's about 1000
    feet on the left.
    
    -al

When I did the flooring in my house I bought a nailer for the purpose.
It takes glued strips of 100 or so nails in its cartridge like a
stapler would, and a pounce or two with a mallot, puts the nail into
the flooring at the proper angle in the tongue. You are welcome to
rent this from me for the price of one day at a typical rental store,
but keep it for a month or so while you finish the job at your leisure.

send mail if interested... 

dl

My (very positive) comments on Dave Lunger's nailer are in 300.12.  It has a 
ratchet so you don't need to sink the nail fully in one blow.

    Re: .2,  Are you getting your info from a table somewhere?  All these
    years I've always thought that birch is somewhat harder than maple.
    
    My experience is that they are identical from a tooling as well as
    finishing point of view.
    

I just called palmer parker and for the quantity of what I want they're around
$500 more expensive than Parlee, but I have to admit I really like their 
quality.  Now the question that remains is if my purse can justify the extra
expense...

-mark

    
    Is the lumber you are buying, kiln dried, air dried or green? Will
    it be square edge, or tongue and grove? When you say you want to
    nail it, do you mean face nail or edge nail(thru the tongue)? 
    How much time do you want to spend?
    
    You might want to answer these questions because it could have an
    impact on how things turn out. Moisture content of wood is critical
    unless you don't mind spaces. Face nailing makes things tough if
    you ever have to refinish the floor(sanding belts get expencive).
    Edge nailing won't work that good unless you have tongue and grove.
    Time is money no matter which way you look at it.
    
    I put down 1200 sf of maple flooring in my home 2 years ago. I 
    started with rough cut maple that was air dried 4 years, planed it 
    myself, ripped it to various widths from 4"- 9 3/4", jointed the
    edges, champhered the edge for a v-grove finish, glued and screwed and 
    pluged(Walnut) each board, sanded and urethaned(epoxy water base) the 
    whole thing myself. This was a major project which too almost 8 months 
    to complete, start to finish. 
    
    It looks fantastic but I wouldn't do it again. Even after after
    a lenghty drying time I still have some spaces, an I had used wedges
    to get thing very tight. Did I save money, you bet, I had an estimate
    from a professional floor installer of $10K, it cost me under $2K
    to finish, but I'm not sure it was worth 8 months of work. You ought
    to consider the questions carefully before you begin.
    
    By the way I also have an edge nailer I never used, make me an offer
    I can't refuse.
    
    Still tired!
    
    Dick        

    
    
       I'm planning on installing a new oak hardwood floor in my
    dining room and small hallway. I'm curious as to how much sanding 
    I can expect to do after installing the floor? Will I need to rent
    one of those floor sanders or will a small belt sander suffice?
    Most of the sanding notes deal with refinishing existing floors!
    
       Does anyone know a location (Central Mass) where I can get a
    product called "VARATHANE - Elite Diamond Finish" (see note 1543.13).
    
       What is the general consensus on how a hardwood floor should be 
    finished - Gloss, satin, etc.?
    
    
    
    DS

    
    re .165
    
    The whole floor will have to be sanded. I suppose you can do it with a
    belt sander but it'll take you forever. The ones you rent are
    beltsanders, just a lot bigger, so it'll take you a lot less time to do
    the job.
    
    Mike

    Definitely rent a sander and edger.  It'l make it a lot easier.
    You'll probably be able to get away with one grit of paper so it 
    shouldn't take too long.
    
    George

    re .165
    
    Don,
    
    Head down the road to Wickes Lumber on rt. 27 in Acton (5 minutes from
    WJO).  They carry the Varathane Diamond Elite finish.
    
    Bob

         Does anyone have off-the-top-of-your-head numbers for
         comparing the cost of prefinished hardwood floor compared to
         sand-and-varnish-it-yourself variety?
         
         I'm trying to decide if the added cost of prefinished
         flooring outweighs the trouble and time required to rent
         sanders and finish the floor myself.
         
         Nancy

    
    My personal opinion is to stay away from the prefinished. Most of the
    scuffs that you'll be sanding away from the non-prefinished floor is
    due to installation and handling. I can't imagine a prefinished floor
    looking like new after installation.
    
    As far as the cost, I don't think it will be much cheaper. The floor
    still has to be sanded and stained and sealed. This is done either before
    the floor is installed or after. Either way you're going to pay for the
    work.
    
    Mike

    I  briefly  looked  into the price of prefinished.    (I'm  putting  in
    hardwood (oak) floors in the kitchen).  The prefinished  seemed to cost
    4 times as much as the normal hardwood (before finishing).   Even after
    finishing I feel the hardwood will be cheaper. 
    
    gjd

    I installed a prefinished floor over a year ago in our bedroom and can
    attest that they most certainly do look new after installation, and it 
    still does.
    
    The cost was $3.00 per square foot plus $70 for nails and the rental
    nailing machine.
    
    Unfinished strip costs about $2.00 per square foot (plus the rental and
    nails).  Renting the sander, sandpaper costs, and finish will quickly
    eat up the $1.00 per foot savings.  If you have the finishing done
    professionally, it will cost anywhere from $1.50-2.00 per square foot.
    
    The savings probably aren't a big deal.  You should consider whether
    you like the choices for pre-finished, some of which cost quite a bit
    more that $3.00 per foot.  Unfinished flooring gives you more
    flexibility for choice of color and finish. 
    
    I liked being able to lay the floor and move right in.  No sanding, no
    drying time, no lasting solvent odor.  Of course,  I get to experience
    that when I refinish my first floor (about 1000 sq ft of white oak).
    8-)
    
    Bob 
    
     

OK.  After reading this note we decided to take up the two layers
of subfloor and linoleum and see just what kind of shape the hardwood
floor in our kitchen is like.  If it's OK, we're going to go for it.

Then the question arises.  Should we go all the way and have the hardwood
floor in the bathroom repaired and finished, too?  The floor guys are
going to be at our house anyway and it is probably the cheapest option.
The toilet, sink and radiator are already out of the bathroom waiting for
new walls.  There are a few boards missing around the toilett, but I assume
we could get replacements.  The other option is linoleum.  I don't want
to be cleaning dirt out of the grout in this downstairs bathroom.

Thanks for any opinions,
Amy

    We have HW throughout except the bath.  Based on my experience
    installing a new dishwasher and the job it did on the floor when it
    overflowed, I would NOT extend the HW into the bath.  Go with the
    linoleum.
    
    I was able to localize the damage to under the cabinet.  Had the
    visible floor gotten wet, I would have had another refinishing job. 
    The floor buckles and upon drying, flattens out but not to the extent
    it was or whay you'd like it to be.
    
    I would not want to have hardwood in the bath the day the toilet
    overflows!!

What are is your hardwood floor finished with?  I was thinking of
using liquid plastic put out by Carver Tripp.  I think this would
take care of huge water spills ???

-Amy

  You're probably right that this product would be one of the better
  choices if you decide to go with the wood. But it may still be a bad
  idea, because you may not be able to completely seal the cracks
  between the boards. Water which seeps down between the boards will rot
  both the boards and the subflooring, and there's probably more water
  that gets onto the floor in a bath (even a 1/2 bath) than in a
  kitchen. In your situation, though, it might be cheap enough to try
  the experiment, and you can put in vinyl later if you see any signs of
  rot (which will look much uglier than dirty grout).

  One other point is how it will look: I think a wood floor in a kitchen
  is very attractive. I'm not so sure I feel the same way about a bath.
  I'd vote for tile as being most attractive in a bath, and just live
  with having to clean the grout. You could even pick a tile which would
  go well with a dark grout, and completely eliminate that problem.

  RE: .15
  Mike, I like your ideas.  And this is a full bath, so there probably
  will be quite a bit of water.  If restoring the wood floor is really
  cheap we probably will try that first.  If that doesn't work, I could
  see selecting black, grey, or brown grout with a tile floor.  I bet
  my husband would like that, too, because I was the one who nixed the tile.

  Thanks!
  Amy

Not to be a worry wart, but a wood floor in a bathroom will need a pretty 
thick finish, which will usually be nice and clear and slippery.
Do you want to try to keep rug tape under your bath mats?

Thanks.  We decided to go with linolium (sheet) in the bathroom.
Meanwhile the floor finisher is working on the rest of
our floors yesterday, today and tomorrow.  So far, the
kitchen looks like its going to be beautiful ... no surprize
urine stains.

-Amy

gee...  It's sure been a long time since I've written a note in here.

The subject is wood flooring, which though covered elsewhere, this particular
issue may not have been.  Is there a best time to put down flooring?

I've heard it said somewhere (maybe elsewhere in this notes file) that the best
time is around NOW the when dampness is high.  The theory being wood is expanded
to it's maximum.  The converse is that if you install it when it's dry, damper
weather will cause the floor to swell and buckle.  I repeated this story to
someone I want to get flooring from and he thought this was silly.  Actually,
I hope he's right since I'd like to put a floow down in october.

I've also heard said that you should put the wood in the house to allow it to
aclimate for a couple of weeks.  Is that the right amount of time?  I assum you
need to stick it to allow air to circulate.

Any opionions?

For what it's worth, I've called a number of places looking for flooring 
including NE Hardwood, Forester Lumber (in Leominster) Parlee (in Littleton)
and Palmer-Parker (in Tewksbury).

While Parlee was the cheapest (at around $2.25/board foot), I'm a little 
nervous about the quality of their milling, and after all, that's the bulk of
what you're paying for.  NEH was the most expensive at somewhere around $4 (I
forget the exact price).  P-P is coming in around $260.  P-P also said their
board run between 8 and 16 feet and I should expect minimal waste.  I've bought
stuff from them in the past and I've been satisfied with their quality as well.

One last comment.  The guy (MAL) at P-P offered me a deal on some Cherry 
flooring (but I wanted something harder like Maple) that someone out there might
want to jump on.  6" milled for 1.50 a lineal foot.  That's $3/board foot of
cherry flooring!!!

-mark

    I certainly wouldn't put a floor down now; I think one would be
    guaranteed to get cracks opening up in the wintertime.  I think
    your time of October is probably about ideal; dry enough so you
    shouldn't get a lot more shrinkage, but not extremely low humidity
    so you shouldn't get excessive expansion in the summer.  If you
    leave a gap around the edge of the floor (to be covered by the
    baseboard), I don't think you'll have a problem with buckling.
    
    My $.02 worth of opinion...
    

    I installed a pine floor this past February. I talked to many people
    and read many articles and the consensus was that the best time is
    when it is dry because gaps are worse than buckling. The other thing
    that I was told by installers is to coat BOTH sides of the boards
    with polyurethane ( or whatever finish) before you begin. 
    This stops (not completely) moisture transitions in the board so that 
    you get less shrinking/swelling. I used a two small car jacks to 
    install the boards very tightly (this is square edge pine ). The 
    floor got a little tighter in the summer, but something only I would 
    notice, having installed it. I had to wait for a rare,warm day in 
    February to coat the sides with the polyu. If I do it again, I'll do it
    in October.
    
    Good luck

    I neglected to mention that I did not actually do the final
    polyurethaning until this July (six coats). On a warm February day
    the boards were coated on both sides (and edges) and stored on the
    porch for a few days. They were installed with the one coat. I then
    waited until July to do the additional six coats.
    
    The reason I'm mentioning this is because polyurethane has to 
    be the most awful smelling stuff and quite deadly to your nervous 
    system. You really need the windows wide open with fans going when
    applying. October may not be the best time in this regard. My family
    and I did not live in the house for the five days it took me to 
    polyurethane. 
    

         RE  .3

         Question.  Did you sand the boards after putting them down? 
         If you didn't, were they already milled to the same
         thickness, or did you ignore any differences in thickness
         after installing them?
         
         Nancy

    No, I did not sand the floor after it was installed. The boards were the 
    same thickness (3/4"). What's more important than the thickness of the 
    board is the uneveness of the floor joists and thereby the subfloor, and 
    the general distortions of a piece of wood that is 12" wide. There's two 
    ways of dealing with this; 1), sand the floor after you install, (because
    wide board pine must be faced nailed, be sure to sink the nails quite
    deep so that the sander drum survives) or 2), chamfer (3/16") the boards 
    along the top 4 edges before installing so that a V groove exists between 
    the boards on all sides (this serves to mask the small differences in 
    board height that is imposed by the unevenness of the floor 
    joists/subfloor etc.). I chose the latter. This method is described 
    in an article in a magazine called Early American Life (July 86, I
    think ?)
     

I don't agree that gaps are worse than buckling.  At least we can agree that
both are nasty, especially taken to extremes.

Besides the swelling and shrinking of the wood, do consider the comfort of the
installer.  If heat and humidity affect you the way they affect me, then 
hardwood floor installation is exactly the _wrong_ type of work to do in July 
or August.  And to some extent, comfort correlates with safety - it's dangerous
to run a table saw when you're blinded by sweat and exhausted by the heat.

A friend of mine is in a bind and looking for some advice.

Here's the story:

He set out to refinish his pine floor. He rented a sander and 
sanded off what was left of the old finish. He decided that the 
floor was too light and wanted to darken it to a dark blonde 
shade. He went out and picked up some sort of tinted poly and 
basically created a huge mess. The first section was too dark, so 
he thinned the next batch and so on and so on until he now has a 
floor that's in various shades. He thought that by sanding it 
down again, he's lighten the darker areas. It didn't work. Anyone 
have any suggestions on what he could do to remove this stuff? He 
was warned about the tinted poly, but decided to go with it 
anyway. He's learned his lesson the hard way and needs help.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

thanks
daryll

    I hate to say this, but, I believe there is no easy way to undo what
    your friend has done. As a minimum the floor will have to be sanded
    down untill the desired color is uniform throughout the whole floor.
    Keep sanding untill there is no shade difference between the different
    area's in the room.  
    
    Next, do the shade experimenting on scrap wood, not on the floor. 
    Better yet, use a separate stain and the clear poly if possible. This
    would only work if, in the sanding stage, you get down to bare wood.
    The stain has to soak into the wood, it won't soak into dry poly.  
    
    Experience is a great teacher. 
    He now knows why it was recommended not to use the tinted poly.
    
    
                                                                     

ditto .-1 
Also he may want to consider NO stain at all.  The pine will darken a shade
or two within a year.
-Larry    
    
                                                                     

    	I'm about to install some oak strip flooring in an upstairs
    hallway.  Last time I installed flooring I ran into a problem with
    using cut nails - the tongue would split away from the flooring.  Can
    anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong?  I expect that I'm not using a
    great enough angle when I drive the nails and consequently not nailing
    through the bulk of the wood.  Is there a technique that I should be
    aware of for nailing wood flooring?  What size cut nails should I use?  
    The area I'm working in is pretty small (as it was last time) so using a 
    nail gun isn't really worth the expense.  
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

    What you're doing wrong is using cut nails.  I've always called them
    flooring nails so when I put down a hardwood floor I used them when I
    got too close to the wall to use the machine.
    
    After ruining half a dozen pieces of wood I tried finish nails
    pre-drilling the wood and finally broke out the strip nails from the
    nailer which had a coating on them.
    
    I would never use cut nails again except through the surface so that
    the head is left exposed purely for decoration.  I'd nail the piece
    elsewhere for strength.

    Hmmmm. I've always heard that you should use cut nails, that the blunt
    tip would help to prevent splitting.  It also seems the head on the
    cut nails would hold teh boards better.  Like you, when I switched to 
    finish nails there was no more splitting.  
    
    Anyone else? have an opinion?
    
    George
    

    I'd use a nail driving tool regardless. They're only 12 bucks to rent.
    It's not worth the aggrevation.
    By the way, I have about 1/2 a box of 2 inch flooring nail left over
    (the L shaped kind) and 3/4 of a bundle of white oak left over.
    
    John

    Sure, use cut nails.  That's what they're for.  The "wide" way of
    the nail should go with the grain of the wood.  No idea why you're
    getting splitting.  Years and years ago I helped (mostly watched,
    as I was about 12 at the time) my uncle put down his oak living
    room floor, all by hand, using cut nails.  Worked fine for him!
    Maybe you should be using slightly smaller nails?  Drive 'em in
    at about a 45 degree angle, at the back edge of the top of the
    tongue...but you probably know that already anyway.
    

         My mother-in-law had her beach house/full time residence redone. The
first floor living/kitchen is all open as one big room. They had the old lino
taken up and the floors sanded. I don't know what the finish was, probably poly,
three coats. After 7 yrs. it is still looking good without any refinishing or
special maintenece. She has throw rugs in traffic areas(rag rugs are very 
slippery, the braided rugs are better, all were chosen to be machine wash/dry)
         My brother laid wideboard pine in his kitchen. It looks rustic and
he and his wife love it. He finished it with Watco wood floor oil finish.
He does wood work by profession, but this wouldn't impress his wife as she is
Chief Cook and Bottle Washer. If the floor were a pain to maintain it would have 
been long gone. She agreed to try it and it has been a sucess. 
          She wasn't worried about kids and dogs damaging the floor. My brother
and his "canoes"(sz 13) and the unidentifiable slop they pick up and drag in
was her main concern. They've had the floor for 3 yrs. now and no complaints.
                              Mary

          the history:
              15 yrs ago

              Previous owners removed old lino and adhesive, in kitchen only.
Must have sanded, although I can't see any real differenc in the level of the
floor(it is all the same floor in the liv/dine room and side room). It is maple,
just like a bowling alley, I dropped an iron point down and it bounced and broke.
The floor had a miniscule dent).
              They had high gloss poly put down. The old lady didn't like it
'cause it didn't stay shiny after the grand kids roller skated, pogoed, and
biked on it.
               Down went a layer of black goo and a couple of boxes of cheap
lino tiles from Kmart. This held up pretty well except the pattern, medallions,
were all "textured". There was nothing even approaching a "no-wax" finish. Wire
brush was the only way to clean it.
               I chiseld the tiles off pretty easily and had at the goo. I'll
never know if it was water soluble. I tried every chemical. The only thing that
dissolved it well enuf to strip in any reasonable amount of time was Formby's
Furniture Refinisher. Expensive, dangerous, and smelly! But I did it.

                Why am I writing this note? The floor is incredibly stained!
In areas where the poly finish was still intact the staining is minor. But
most of the floor was worn down to bare wood and stained by the black goo. 
You can imagine the color.  There are also some water stains in front of the
sink where water seeped  inbetween the tiles and along the cracks.
                I'm hoping it can be sanded out. I will not do this, and am 
waiting to get a couple of "professional" opinion/prices. My biggest fear is
that I drove the stain into the wood with the solvent.
                 While I wait for the pros I am trying asnything and everything
to clean it. Suggestions?
                 What is the difference between Clorox and wood bleach? I'm
going to try oxalic acid tonight. I've been testing in an unconspicuous spot.
But I can't make it look any worse.
                  I also wanted to mention that there is enuf methylene
chloride in the Formby's soup to bubble up the poly.
                         Thanks,
                               Mary
                       "glad this is only my practice(first) old house"


             

Last summer I installed 4"  maple bought from NE Hardwood. I 
followed the normal procedure and let the wood acclimate for  a
few weeks in the house.

This past winter, I had a few gaps that I could fit a dime in.  All in 
all it wasn't to bad.  There were no signs of buckling.

I plan to do a few more rooms in the house. I will do it in
November instead of late September.

Gim

The time has finally come!  I now have around 1200 board feet (around 4000
lineal feet) of maple flooring, stacked with stickers between each one sitting
in my living room and waiting to be put down!  That old pine floor made great
stickers - too bad it has all those nail holes in it because the wood is in
pretty good shape.  While some of the maple has sticker stain (I plan on trying
to bleach some of it out), the majority of it looks fine. 

Having never put down a t&g floor, I thought I'd ask a couple of opinions
(having looked through all of the installation notes):

	o	any thoughts about screwing the end boards from below to avoid
		nail marks?  Since I have 6" walls there's a lot of room above 
		the foundation to get under the end of the flooring.  maybe I'm
		taking this too far...

	o	some previous notes made comment about leaving a gap around the
		edges for expansion.  This still has me confused.  After all,
		the boards are nailed in place the entire width of the room.  if
		there was expansion, that would require almost every board to
		move!   if all you're worried about is the outermost board, that
		sucker isn't really going anywhere.  besides, LOTS of houses
		have the flooring put in after the baseboards and I don't recall
		seeing the flooring push the walls out.  have I missed 
		something?

	o	what goes between the flooring and the sub-floor.  it sounds 
		like felt is the thing to use.  although I'm over a cellar, I
		already have insulation with the vapor barrior down which I know
		is wrong, but I figure putting down another vapor barrier under
		the flooring will only complicate things.

	o	what about where the edges of the boards butt?  I know a lot of
		flooring has t&g edges but mine doesn't.  I'd think that given
		a long enough board, the edges aren't about to move.

		btw - I got my flooring from Palmer-Parmer and most boards 
		(about 50%) are 12' long. Probably another 25% are 8' and the
		rest mainly 14' with the balance around 10'.

-mark

    As I understand it, the felt is not so much as vapor barrior but as a
    means to seperate the sub-flooring from the flooring to eliminate
    squeak.

    The felt paper is for reduction of squeaks. as for ends meeting, cut
    each end at 15 degrees as pictured below.
    
    
    _____________  ______________
                / /
    ___________/ /_______________
    
    
               Paul
    

    re -.1
    
    	Paul,
    
    	I assume you mean for your picture to be a side view.  Correct?
    
    George

re .47

All the hardwood floor that I have seen have the ends butted together square. I
have heard advise (probably from Norm - who else) to cut the ends at a 5 degree
angle, with each end angling away from each other.  That way, when the tops of
each floor piece come together, they will/should butt tightly.

btw. Fine homebuilding has a book and video on hardwood floor installation -
"Hardwood Floors Laying, sanding and finishing" by Don Bollinger, #070103. It's
$17.95 and can be ordered by calling 1-800-888-8286.  I plan to order it, since
I will be installing a hardwood floor in the future.  I can't speak for the
quality of the book, but I did read Don's article in the Nov. 1990 Fine
Homebuilding, and he seems to know what he is talking about.

    Regarding felt, I used red rosin paper instead. It's cheaper, the pros
    use it, easier to handle, and it doesn't stink like oil.
    
    John

    LEAVE THE GAP ALL THE WAY AROUND.
    
    Yes, I guess I was yelling.  It amazes me to see a floor where they
    have not done that and how much it moves and/or buckles.  It does not
    seem to bother the nails.
    
    The floors with a 1/4" gap all around don't buckle.  I don't pretend to
    understand.  I jest knows it works.

    .48, .47:
    
    I think the view is from the side, and you're looking at a
    cross-section of the two pieces.
    
    The really difficult part is getting that angled cut through the
    thickness of the felt (or rosin paper, which my father used too).
    
    Dick

    yes it is the side.
    
    Paul

>    LEAVE THE GAP ALL THE WAY AROUND.
    
>    Yes, I guess I was yelling.  It amazes me to see a floor where they
>    have not done that and how much it moves and/or buckles.  It does not
>    seem to bother the nails.
    
>    The floors with a 1/4" gap all around don't buckle.  I don't pretend to
>    understand.  I jest knows it works.

How then do you explain the MAJORITY of houses built with baseboards inatalled
first and their floor NOT buckling?

-mark

    I gues I can't.
    
    Are these older homes perhaps where the floor was installed without the
    help of a nailer.  The individual boards would then be somewhat looser
    and be able to shrink and swell a little.
    
    I always thought the majority of houses had floors installed the other
    way around.  That is the baseboards last.  It's certainly easier to
    install the baseboards last to cover up the less than perfect cuts on
    the ends of the boards.
    
    It's entirely possible that (and the reason why escapes me) it's FASTER
    to install the baseboards first.  If that's the case - time is money in
    building professionally.  
    
    Ahhhhhh, I'm speaking of installing unfinished flooring and then
    finishing.  I bet these houses you speak of are installing pre-finished
    HW flooring.  Then I'd believe it's faster.

>How then do you explain the MAJORITY of houses built with baseboards inatalled
>first and their floor NOT buckling?
    Here's a couple of reasons, that combined, could account for the
    majority.
    o  Houses are built during warm months, and therefore not subject to
       additional humidity/expansion post-installation.
    o  Flooring is usually not fully dried prior to installation, so
       as it dries out will only shrink.
    
    So if you install dried flooring in the driest conditions, and leaves
    no gaps, then in that case you'll get buckling. I would say those
    conditions are not frequent.
    
    John

Floors are usually put in last simply for scheduling reasons.  You need the 
finish carpenters to put in the baseboards, and it's much easier for them to 
do it when they're finishing the rest of the trim.  Then you call the flooring
contractors to come in last, when everything else is done.

If you put in the floor before the baseboards, not only do you have to call 
back the finish carpenters after they've gone on to another house, but those
carpenters then have to be very careful to cover the floor so they don't scuff
it up.  You could avoid this by having the floor finished after the baseboards
were installed, but then you again have the problem of getting the flooring 
contractor back again to do the finishing.

It's all a product of having separate contractors doing separate things.  When
one crew of carpenters did the whole house, they of course did it the smart 
way - floor first, and then baseboards to cover the gap.  

I suspect that John's explanation of incompletely dried flooring and summer
work has a lot to do with why we don't see problems.  I HAVE read about houses
that literally sprung the walls because very dry flooring was installed tightly
in the dead of winter.

Paul

In our house, built in 1934, the floors were put in after the baseboards.
There's no molding where they meet.  There are some gaps between the floors
and the baseboards, but nothing over 1/4".

    In my house built in 1989 the flooring was installed and finished first
    in the rooms with hardwood. Where there was carpet the baseboard was
    installed first. I think it is a matter of preferance by the
    contractor.
    Sandy
    

    Yes and after thinking about it a while I realized that if they are
    installing pre-finished flooring which is cheaper for the pro but more
    expensive for the DIYer, then they'd want to do that as the last thing
    if possible.
    
    Otherwise they've got to protect a finished floor against staging, sand
    being tracked through since the paving isn't done yet, etc.
    
    If the buyer walks in and find his HW floor all marked up, he ain't
    gonna be too happy.
    
    On the other hand, have you ever tried to refinish a HW floor and have
    to worry about a baseboard when you get near the edge.  I just pop my
    baseboards, refinish the floor and replace the baseboards.

I have a hardwood maple (4" wide) floor. It's 15 months old.  The high
traffic area looks worn.  I expected it so I'm not complaining.

Any problems with refinishing just the high traffic areas?  It's
a shame to do entire floor.

Gim

    I am getting ready to put down a tongue & grove oak strip flooring
    and want to put a 4" wide mahogony inlay that follows the room outline.
    
    Has anyone done something like this or seen any articles about
    doing something like this? I have a couple of ideas about how
    it might be done but would like to hear others.
    
    Also I have given some thought to staining a 4" wide outline a
    mahogony color instead of inlay but I think my stained edges might not 
    come out crisp between this an the oak color, in other words some 
    bleeding wood occur.
    
    Any comments.
     

        You could always stain the 3 pieces before you nail them in.  The 2
    outer the oak color and the 1 mahogony. Then stain everything else
    after.

    Fine Homebuiding magazine had an article about this during the past
    fall.  Check with your local library to see if they have back issues. 
    The magazine only has 6 issues a year so your search should be a short
    one.  Maybe someone else who gets the mag. on a regular basis can offer
    you the specific issue.  
    
    The magazine also publishes books that are more indepth studies of
    topics.  They have a book and video which covers hardwood floor
    installation and one of the topics is inlaying different woods and
    designs.  Taunton Press.
    

We installed FIY tongue and groove oak in our kitchen and
bedroom, with a strip (one board) of cherry parallel to the
walls, either 24 or 30 inches from the walls.  Upon installation
and after application of polyurethane, we were disappointed at
the similarity of the oak and the cherry.  You know, we spent all
that extra money on the cherry and it looked just like the oak.
Within a year, though, the cherry began to turn red and it is
quite impressive now. 

Full house tours available, in Maynard, Massachusetts, upon request.

Sally

You generally have to sand after installation, to account for variations in both
the floor and the wood.  Thus, you will sand off any stain you put on.  
Different, contrasting species of wood is the way to go (I'm planning 5 1/4"
T+G Birch with a border of Walnut (most likely) or Ebony (probably much too 
expensive).

I have both the FH article and the book by the author (I think I saw the book
at spags once).  It doesn't get into a lot of detail on inlay, but is an 
excellent book for anyone planning on doing a floor themselves (I'm planning to
install and let someone else sand and finish).  

I also found a company in Kentucky (I think), that manufactures decorative
inlay for floors.  The prices, however, are not for the weak of heart ($30+/ft).
They also do custom orders.

We have to -

Sand floors
Strip wallpaper & repaper or paint
Paint the ceilings

Have been thinking of sanding next to last; painting the trim last.  But some 
people have said to sand first, because of the dust.

Any rule of thumb on this?

garrett

    I've always heard work from the top down.  Besides, when I sanded 
    our floor(s), the sander(s) came with a bag to catch the majority 
    of the dust.
    
    Gene
     

>    Besides, when I sanded 
>    our floor(s), the sander(s) came with a bag to catch the majority 
>    of the dust.

yeah, they come with a bag to catch the majority... only problem is they
may in actuality only capture the minority:

the sanders i've rented did catch the majority of the dust... that was in the
dust bag. the portion that never made it to the bag coated the room.

and in cleaning the bag, a minority of the dust would escape into the room
too [you can clean the edger bag outside, but the main machine you are just
not gonna want to carry in/out to empty the bag].

anyways, top - down makes most sense to me too; just have or borrow
a shop vac to go over your new paint job after the sanding.

      Suggestion:

      When  sanding floors or sheetrock or whatever, get a large fan and
      put it in a window to exhaust as much of  the  dust  as  possible.
      (That  is,  as  much as possible of what doesn't get into the dust
      bag -- which is a lot!) Open a window or door on the other side of
      the room so that the air move through.  Close all other windows in
      the room.

      Not perfect, but it helps.

      (P.S. Remove the screen from the window with the fan or the screen
      will become clogged with dust.)

A favor to ask...

Anyone got a hardwood floor nail holder for installing a
hardwood (oak) floor that I could borrow for a few days?
This is the kind that holds the nails a ~45 degree angle
and that you hit with a hammer to drive the nail home. (I'm
not looking for the air powered type.)

I'm in ZK (Nashua), and need it for the upcoming weekend
(6/29-6/30).

Thanks in advance.

Tom Deane

603-672-5026
DTN: 381-0336
wasted::deane

    You can find them at Currier Lumber in Amherst and probably DoAll
    Rental in Milford.
    

I have a porta-nailer that I rent out. You load it with a strip of
nails, and position the nailer. Then hit a plunger with a mallot twice
per nail, and it sends the nail in at the proper angle.

Send mail if interested...

dl

    I got one some years ago at one of the local equipment rental stores

    Somerville Lumber (in Windham or Salem, I've forgottten which) has one
    for $20. (per day?) along with a $250. deposit. (they kinda want it 
    back. :^)
    
    ben

Hi there,

I am having Myron (of BCM Flooring) refinish my mom's floors
in a couple of weeks.   Myron came over to talk to me about
it last night and give an estimate (livingroom floor, hallway,
and stairs going up).  I was VERY disappointed 
when he told me that he can't do the risers on the stairs
(the vertical part).  Said the sanders can't do those.
He told me to PAINT them.  YUCK!!!!  He also can't do
the baseboards around the livingroom and up the sides of
the stairs.  They are REALLY ugly.. stained and scuffed.
I feel like I'm spending all this money and it's going to
still look bad... and worst of all Myron seems to think
that it is 'OK' to leave all that stuff unfinished!

I know BCM has a great reputation, so I know it's not
Myron in particular, but has anyone had a refinisher
come in a leave those areas undone???  

It looks like I will have to go in and hand-strip those
parts and sand them myself.  Does anyone know what kind
of stipper will be strong enough to do a floor?  I've
used Stipeze for furniture, and I tried putting it on
a patch of the stairs.  It works, but in the gouges it
will take a long time to get clean... should I be using
something stronger?  

Lastly, can I rent a hand-sander of some kind to sand
the backs of the stairs???  They really need it.

Thanks for any help!!  I'm determined to have it
come out nice!

    
    
    
    You may be able to use a sander on flat surfaces using a small hand
    sander (there are different sizes of these) but I do not think I would
    like to use them on any detailed baseboard.
    
    
    I had our floors sanded/refinished.Later I decided to replace the
    baseboards in the household.Unfortunatly the baseboard I picked was
    thinner than the origional.(the house is 25 years old and I don't
    believe thay make molding of that width anymore).Where the old
    baseboard rested on the floor there was a raised groove.
    I had to use quarter round to mask the groove, adding width to the
    new molding.If I was planning to replace the baseboard, I would either 
    make sure the replacement will be at least as wide, or remove the
    boards prior to refinishing.
    
    
    

    I removed all baseboards and caps, removed the seemingly 29 layers of
    paint with a heat gun, sanded off the first paint layer with a belt
    sander, had Myron refinish the floor with the baseboards still out in
    the barn, reinstalled the baseboards, and am now varnishing them. 
    A lot of work, a lot of satisfaction.  Looks great.
    
    Floor refinishers use big, heavy equipment that does a good job of
    removing the finish fast.  It's cost effective.  There is no similar
    heavy duty equipment for refinishing baseboards; it's a slow,
    painstaking procedure which is not at all cost effictive. 
    
    	Marlene

    The competent floor refinishers used to use small, light equipment
    including both circular sanders (edgers?), small orbital sanders, and
    hand scrapers as well, for hard to get at areas.
    
    				
    				herb

    re 2.188 (now deleted)
    
    I was wrong. Our risers were NOT refinished! They are painted now, as
    is the stair level 'moulding' that runs up the side of the stairs
    matching the stairs in profile.
    I apologize for telling you that the risers had been refinished along
    with the treads.
    
    
    
    				sorry
    				herb

I've since spoken with other floor refinishers and none of the
ones I've called do the risers or the baseboards. 
So.... I got me a palm sander and lots of 5f5 and I'm going
to attack it myself... and hope it comes out well!!

  Re: .192

  Good luck -- that's going to be a tough job.  Is there any chance you
  can pop the baseboard off and do the refinishing outside of the living
  space?  That would limit your family's exposure to the fumes.  And
  if the back side of the baseboard isn't too shabby, there is even a 
  chance that you could just flip it over and avoid stripping most of
  the paint.

  Obviously, this won't work for the risers...

  JP

    
    
    good idea!  I can't flip it because it is carved at the top,
    but I'll see if they can be easily removed.  
    I'm going to have about 20 fans going to keep away fumes %^)

    I just had the stairs refinished in our house.  I don't think the
    risers have ever been unpainted.  I also don't think they are made of
    hardwood.  If your risers are not hardwood, a natural finish on them
    may not match the natural finish of the treads.

Ok... so far stripping is going pretty well on the stairs
and baseboards in my mom's house (5f5 really works great!).

Now I've run into a problem... there are wood baseboards
in the kitchen which have to be stipped, but the kitchen
floor is a fairly new no-wax vinyl floor.  I assume that
a stipper would completely ruin the floor if it got on 
it (considering you can't even wash those things with
Ajax without stripping off the finish).

So... anyone got any recommendations on how to strip
the molding?  I don't trust trying to cover up the
edge of the floor while I strip with something 
potentially harmful.  Am I relegated to hand sanding
and not stripping with chemicals?

    
    RE .196
    
    Pull the baseboards off. It should be fairly easy. Then strip them and
    restain them while they're off.
    
    Mike

    Several question.
    
    
     1) Can you put poly over linseed oil?
    
     2) What is the difference between varnish and poly (looks,durability,
        etc)?
    
     Mark

     1) Can you put poly over linseed oil?
        Yup, not problem.
    
    
     2) What is the difference between varnish and poly (looks,durability,
        etc)?
        Varnish is type of finish. A polyurethane IS A  varnish. Tung-oil
        also a varnish.
    
    
    MIKE

I plan to install an oak hardwood floor in new construction.  All the books
and information I have found talk about nailing the strips to the subfloor 
and omit information on installation around doors.  The questions I have are:

1. There are a total of 7 doorways.  One is a pocket door with hardwood on one 
   side, vinyl on the other.  Should the vinyl meet the reducer under the center 
   of the door?  Should the finish carpenter cut the bottom of the door jam to 
   fit the oak strip - reducer - vinyl profile?

2. My builder asked me if I wanted to install the floor before or after the 
   kitchen cabinets are in.  What would you recommend?  Installing before 
   the cabinets will provide a sturdier floor, be easier to sand and faster
   to install because of less cutting, but take more material ($).

3. How are the baseboards kept at the same level going from the 3/4" thick
   hardwood floor to vinyl/carpeting?  I can see where the baseboard can be 
   raised off the subfloor with carpeting since it will hide the gap.  Can't 
   do this with vinyl though?  Ripping 3/4" minus vinyl thickness off the 
   baseboard mounted over the hardwood floor a possible solution?

4. Everything I've read indicates one should install strip flooring perpendicular
   to the joists.  Has anyone installed it parallel to the joists?

5. The Hometime video on hardwood floors go into installation around doors?

Appreciate your comments/suggestions.  I'm trying to set up a meeting with the 
finish carpenter to work out these details.

Thanx,
Dave

    I recommend putting the floor in before cabinets. At this time, I'm
    planning to change my kitchen floor to wood (oak). My concern is 
    when my dishwasher needs replacement, I will have to lift the 
    counter top in order to get it out. There is very little space
    between the counter top and the washer now but it will slide out.
    After I install a floor, the washer will need lifting to clear the
    thickness of the new floor but the space above the washer is
    inadequate without lifting the counter.
    
    Joe

    I've installed hardwood parallel to the joists with no problems.  It's
    just that it's much sturdier if you do it perpendicular.
    
    Do you actually want to put hardwood in one room thru the doorway into
    another room?  It really shouldn't be that hard to do except that you
    have to saw off the bottom of the door, the jam and the casing.
    
    So are you trying to have the hardwood floor change to vinyl in the
    middle of a room where there's no doorway?
    
    -al

    
    
    Lets see if I can remember all your questions....
    
    . Put the floor down first.  its extra material, but everything
    will be even and firm.
    
    . If your worried about matching baseboards, you can always trim
    off the ones on your HW floor 3/4" to match the other room.  Depend
    in you configuration.
    
    . You can go thru the door ways with the floor but sometimes match
    it in the other room might be a problem is the room isnt square.  I
    took an oak board and made a threshold.  Then trim the door to fit.
    
    . I think you can get away with 1/4" from the wall.  My floor
    hasnt move yet.  I have a few space under the baseboard and it
    hasnt changed in size.
    
    Hope it helps.
    JD

        Nope! 4 days just to lay the wood! A power nailer is an oxymoron.
        The power comes from wacking the thing with a mallet. I had to
        bend into a strange position to do this, and didn't always hit
        hard enough to fully drive the nail. Some floors can be put down
        with an air driven nailer, but not the stuff I had.
        
        I had no problem cutting the strips to length, but did not have
        anything to properly rip them with. Fortunately, I only had to rip
        about 15 feet total. I guess someone bigger and stronger, or more
        experienced than I was would have an easier time.
        
        I just remembered whY I dodn't have your problem goiung from Vinyl
        to Wood. Under the vinyl you will need a subfloor that is not
        needed under the wood. After you put down 1/2" plywood, and then
        vinyl, there will only be a very small drop compared to 3/4" wood
        floor. One of those metal trim strips will cover this up fine, and
        hide any messy wood edges.

I put down nearly 400 sq. ft. of oak strip flooring in my living room by myself
one Saturday, and was able to get the nailer back to the rental store by 4:30.

Paul

    
    
    	Well, I am seriously thinking about HW flooring in my house.(I have
    old really ugly carpets, and need new flooring anyway).
    
    	I saw a couple of questions way back in this note inquiring
    about...
    
    
    		Price!
    
    	I would like to know what the price for wood strip flooring is.
    
    	Should I take the Summerville Lumber Sunday Circular price?
    
    	Should I go to a lumber yard?
    
    	Do flooring contractors sell the raw product?
    
        What did YOU pay on a sq. yrd.,....sgq. ft. basis?
    
    
    
    	Thank-you very much,
    
    	CP
    
    

    I did the unfinished Burce, White Oak.  I think the price
    from Summerville was $1.79/Sq'.  Put it down, finished it
    (Poly & rent-a-sander)for less then what they wanted for
    the prefinished stuff.  I made about 6 phone calls and found
    they had the best price at the time.
    
    JD

    re "how long to intall"
    
    A lot of variance is due to the type of space you have.  A big wide
    open room allows one to just keep banging away and an AVERAGE person
    (If I recall Paul is  a 200+ pounder) could probably do 250-300 sq ft
    in one day.
    
    The area under discussion is a lot more involved; more cutting and MUCH
    more hand nailing (ie slower), since you can't swing the nailer in
    tight spaces.  
    
    I did a 300 sq ft bedroom (closets, dormer, entry way) in 3 days.  It's
    real work.
    
    Bob

    I'm in the process of building the house that they build on Hometime a
    couple of years ago, and due to the layout, I'm running into the same
    problem of flooring heights changing from room to room:
    (hardwood_ceramic tile_hardwood_vinyl_carpeting_etc.).  Several of the
    junctions don't have a wall to separate them, so I'm planning on
    installing different thickness underlayment to maintain a consistent 
    flooring height thoughout the entire house (as was mentioned in .68).
    
    Al

Re. 71 "price"

My estimated costs to install 350 sq ft are:

378 sq ft #1 red oak (21 18 sq ft bundles) @ 1.53       578
nailer rental @ 13 per day for 2 days                    26
nails                                                    30
floor sander @ 35 per day                                35
edger @ 12 per day                                       12
sand paper                                               25
felt                                                     12
3 ft reducer @ 1.60/ln ft                                 5
4 ft stair nosing @ 2.50/ln ft                           10
urethane (2 gals)                                        50
wood filler                                              20
                                                       ----
                                                        803

This works out to about 2.30 sq ft installed and finished.  I'm 
budgeting about $900 since something always seems to come up I
had not planned for, and the about figure does not include sales 
tax.  I could have it installed and finished for about $1500.  
If you have it installed and finished, the installers provide 
the tools, nails, felt, urethane, etc.  You pay for the wood plus 
the installation charge per sq ft.

I'm getting all the materials and rentals thru the same store.
I could save a few more bucks getting each item from the 
cheapest store, but want to deal with this store since one of 
the salesman has actually installed HW floors.

Laying the strips the length of the hall makes installation a lot easier,
but will make the hall look a bit longer and narrower than it really is.
Laying them perpendicular to the hall length makes the hall look a bit
shorter and wider than it really is.  For a wide hall, I'd probably go
with the easier method.  If the hall is narrow, though, you may want to
invest the effort to avoid future claustrophobia.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

I agree with .78 regarding the appearance.  Another consideration is
the sanding and finishing.  We are all aware the we need to sand with
the grain of the wood.  It will certainly be an easier task to do
with the strips running parallel to the length of the hallway.  Perhaps
I'm a bit lazy but I would go with the easier method.  Providing that
it is also perpendicular to the joists.

    
    	re.77
    
    	Thanks!  That is exactly what I was looking for!
    
    	CP
    

    The transition from a wood floor to vinyl can be made with a threshold
    that you fashion out of a strip of wood.  You basically want to use
    the tongue to fit on top of the vinyl.  To do this you use a plane
    and make a gradual curve from the top to the tongue.
    
    The problem with running flooring parallel to the hallway walls is that
    the last foot or two needs to be drilled and hand-nailed since you
    won't be able to use the power-nailer that close to the wall.
    
    -al

	I'm planning on putting in a hardwood floor in my dining room.
	I'm trying to decide whether or not to get unfinished or a
	finished floor.  What are the pros and cons?
	
	So far,  I got:
	
Pros for pre-finished:
	- "factory" poly finish is better,  harder, etc. ( True or
	   just salesman BS ? )
	- easier ( just install it )
	
Cons for pre-finished:
	- costs more ( but maybe not that much after including sanding and
		poly costs )
	- if the wood is uneven thickness, you'll be able to feel it on
	  the finished floor.
	- most you're not supposed to refinished unless you strip completely
	  ( ie,  you can't just add another coat of poly )
	- floor might get scratched/dented during installation and you 
	  can't fix it.
	
Pros for unfinished:
	- cheaper ?? ( Sommerville has Bruce Select white oak for
			$31.25 for 19 sq. ft. this week )
	- floor can be sanded smooth and imperfections sanded out
	
	
Cons for unfinished
	- lots more work
	- may have to hire pro to do sanding 
	
	What else?
	
	Garry
	

    
    Garry,
    Last year I did my dinning room.  ~12x12 with unfinished Bruce
    from Summerville.  $ was a factor not time.  I saved "BIG" $$$
    /having someone do it.  Saved almost half the price in buying
    unfinished/finished and that included renting and the poly.  I
    borrow a buffer and buffed it between coats.  Except for a few
    sanding marks near the wall (When the tell you to stop sanding
    in different spots DO IT!), The comments were "who did your floor
    ing."  I still need to put a coat of wax and buff it in.
    
    JD
    

    re JD
    
    Consider that if you put wax over poly, it will not only be very
    slippery, you will have to strip it off completely should you ever wish
    to recoat with poly.  If you you don't wax, all you have to do when
    recoating is to lightly sand (scuff) the existing finish.
    
    Bob

    
    
    Thanks Bob.  I was thinking of the "slip factor" when
    I was told "its brings up the shine and keeps the scuffing
    marks away."    Seeing that a section of the floor is the main
    highway to the bath & bedrooms.  We'll see how it holds up.
    Waxing is just another thing on the list.
    
    JD

Does anyone know the grading system for hardwood flooring?

I thought it went

	good
	better
	select		( the best )
			

This weekend I tried to get Home Depot to match ( less 10%) Sommerville's price
on Bruce unfinished "SELECT" oak flooring.

Home Depot sells "SELECT & BETTER" which they claim is better then "SELECT". 
Therefore, the best they would do is just match the price, not beat it by 
10%.  I had talked to a guy at Sommerville a few weeks before and they had 
a different prefinished floor which was "GOOD & BETTER" which he said wasn't 
as good as the "SELECT", saying the rating system was "good,better,select".  
Because of all this I didn't buy anything and I'd like to know what is 
really the best grading?

Is there really much difference with unfinished flooring since you have to
sand it down anyways?

Garry

	To answer my own question I called Bruce Hardwood flooring
	in Dallas ( 214-931-3000 ) and I found out that 
	"Select & Better" includes "clear" grade lumber so it is
	actually better than "select".
	
	Garry

    I used walnut inlay,when you get to where you want the border just
    inlay your trim piece cut it to the width you want and place it in .
    you could call some one that does hard wood floor work they might help
    over the phone.?

I can't help but wonder if one of these days we'll have a wicked awesome grade.

That would have to be a grain so uniform that your floor looks seamless.

    OH HELP ME GUYS!  I've been through two days of hell and looking for
    some assistance.
    
    To begin with, please understand, I am not a d-i-y-er.  I hate to admit
    it but no matter how I try when I attempt to do something positive to my
    'fixer-upper' I create a 'unique' experience.  A stressful, and
    unsatisfactory experience, but unique anyway.
    
    We have 7 indoor cats and two of them, when stressed, will spray. 
    Since I had carpeting and have beautiful heart-shaped pine wainscotting
    this has created an environment in hell.  So, to correct the flooring 
    problem we decided that we would put down LUXURY vinyl flooring over what 
    we thought was a plywood subfloor.  We thought this was practical 
    but would still look nice in our 55 year-old saltbox 1700 reproduction.  
    This flooring is by Nafco and it looks, really, just like oak planks and 
    in fact, is installed as 2 1/4 x 3 ft planks.  Very expensive but we 
    thought it would be very easy to clean with so many cats.
    
    Well, when we ripped up the carpet yesterday we found beautiful oak
    flooring underneath it and in good conscious could not put the vinyl
    down.  So, at an expense, we cancelled the installation.  Now we're
    calling for estimates to refinish the floor and have become dazed and
    confused.  Basically I'm wondering 'are we doing the right thing'. Our
    'small' spraying problem pales in comparison to the big dog wee stains
    scattered ALL OVER the flooring from previous owners pets.  They are 
    small, contained, stains but can they really come out?  Also, am I stupid 
    to refinish the floors given that my 2 cats spray on occasion or is there 
    some type of finish that will let me clean up easily.  It's not like this 
    happens every day and we find the 'spot' quickly, as you can well imagine. 
    AND, if you think we should go ahead with refinishing the floor how do 
    I clean up urine most effectively?
    
    Also, the occasional 'spray' is restricted to the perimeter of the room
    and we never see accidents anywhere else.
    
    One more question.  Some refinishers go on and on about oil-based
    urethane while others say water-based is just as good.  What's the deal
    here?  If we go ahead with the refinishing drying time is critical
    since taking 7 cats to a kennel for 3-4 days is almost out of the
    question. Our alternative is to lock them all in the basement for the
    duration and my guilt would be all-encompassing.  Unless there's a
    significant difference in quality I would like to go with the faster
    drying stuff. Advice?
    
    Oh yes, ONE MORE thing.  Given the cat scenario, how many coats of
    urethane do I need.  Durability, as you can expect, is an issue but I'm
    more concerned with protecting the surface from the occasional hair
    ball and spray incident.  More advice.
    
    Since xmas is creeeping around the corner and my vinyl order is sitting
    at the shop in a holding pattern for my final decisions IMMEDIATE
    support is desired.  If you can offer advice quickly I would be
    thrilled!
    
    thanks alot!
    Lydia 
         

    
      Sounds to me like you are getting priorities a little mixed up. If
    I am out of line please forgive me.
      If one has a problem he concentrates on that problem then goes to the
    next. I can't see worrying about your floors until you have done
    something about your main problem (the cats). If you do something to
    your floors and the wee wee problems remains, what did you accomplish?
    
      To answer your question about water based polyurethane. It is about
    twice as expensive to use and doesn't do anything spectacular other
    than increase drying time by about 1/4. Not worth it. Also a coat
    of poly goes about $.50 a sq ft done by professionals and you need
    about three coats done. 
    
      Nothing looks nicer than nicely finished hardwood flooring, but no
    sense in doing it if the wee-wee makers remain.
    
      Put down the vinyl or get some litter boxes.

    
    OOPS that should have been decrease drying time about 1/4.

    One can get a Valium equivalent for cats that allegedly gets them
    so mellowed out they don't care about spraying anymore.  Seriously!
    That might be one way to get the two offending cats to stop.  Your
    vet would probably know about it.

    Urine stains (the kind that turn the grain of the wood to a darker
    brown) cannot be completely removed by simple sanding.  Most
    professionals sanders can get most of the dark brown off of the surface,
    but the urine usually darkens the edge between two strips so you can't get
    it out there.
    
    Since a hardwood floor does not have a completely impermeable surface,
    if the cats go again, chances are you will continue to damage the floor.
    
    When the guy did our floor he said one of the most common problems
    he has is with pets walking on the floor before the urethane was
    completely dry.
    
    -al

re: 2.203                       hardwood floor                       203 of 203
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>               -< IMMEDIATE ASSISTANCE REQUIRED - OH THE CATS! >-
>
>    OH HELP ME GUYS!  I've been through two days of hell and looking for
>    some assistance.

Check up on this stuff:

>625.39                  Wallpapering a bathroom                    39 of 43
>CSSE32::SKABO "Money talks, mine say's GOODBYE!"     51 lines  19-NOV-1991 13:01
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>              -< Put a coat of VARATHANE over the Wall Paper.... >-
>
>    Try VARATHANE - Elite Diamond Finish over wall-paper - the add says
>    so.... Protects wallpaper for a waterproof surface!
 
	According to this note (625.39); VARATHANE  is so water
	resistant that it can be used over wallpaper in a shower.

	However, I would say to determime who makes it, and call the company
	up and specifically ask about its reaction to cat urine. Somewhere in
	my experience I recll some cautions abou this.

	You may a get additional suggestions (if haven't already) ask this 
	in the FELINE notes file, VAXWRK::FELINE.

	I have seen the results of dog & cat urine / feces on an uprotected
	solid oak floor, and its reall bad. The floorboards warped, shrunk,
	and finally came up due to the repeated soakings. 

	In another company, they put about 4 or 5 layers of poly-urethane
	finish on the old mill factory floors, and it seemed to hold up
	under oil spills and real rough  wear. (the lavatories had concrete
	floors).

	Bob

    ref. #2.204
    
    Geez, you were out of line and I do forgive you.  I was not asking
    about how to handle the cats but how could I have a hardwood floor and
    protect it.  If it were not possible I would go to another flooring
    rather than get rid of the cats.  And, we've tried the tranquilizers
    and they don't work with my two offenders and actually, they only work
    permanently about 50% of the time.  I may not know much about fixing up
    an old house but I REALLY know cats.
    
    Anyway, thanks to those who provided positive suggestions and advice!
    
    take care,
    l.

    
    Sorry if I was to tough on you. Don't get me wrong, I love my animals
    also. I was just trying to point out that something would have to be
    done before the other problem could be solved. Do they make Kitty
    diapers? :>) Anyway good luck with the floors. Although expensive 
    to restore, they will look beautiful when finished. You just might have
    to tell the two offenders that they will have to loose a little freedom
    and not let them into that area after the floors are done. Sorry that
    I don't know of any other method.

    
    I *think* you can use oxalic acid to bleach out stains in
    hardwoods - I have a restorer friend who uses it to remove
    stains on antique tables.  How about using a wax finish
    instead of varnishes?  You should be able to do the whole
    job in a day. It will not be as tough as a varnish, and
    will need regular re-application but should stop the puddles
    from soaking into the wood.
    
    If you do use multiple coats of varnish then a sprayed-on
    coat will dry much faster and allow you to put several coats
    on in one 12-hour period.
    
    [Personally, I'd go for the toughest finish possible - 2-part
    yacht varnish.  It will be expensive and might take a couple of days
    to apply but the wood will stay protected for many years.]
    
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    
    

    Oxalic acid can be used to bleach surfaces.  The problem with animal
    stains is that they tend to warp and shrink the strips such that
    you get 1/16 to 1/8 inch gaps between them.  The stains tend to
    get between two strips so you can't sand or bleach them out very
    well.
    
    Another possibility is to find someone who finishes gymnasium floors.
    These are usually finished with some plasticized material rather than
    with polyurethane.  Regular polyurethane would not hold up well in a gym.
    
    -al

    The finish is called GYMCOAT it is a polymer.  Fairly slow drying.
    	Yes, it is durable but doesn't strip well.  Our school dept.
    	generally sanded it off.  Wait until you can open doors and 
    	windows, requires ventilation.

We have hardwood floors, and one of the cats was incontinent for a
while. (Her problem was eventually solved with 3 months of kitty-cat
valium and some environment changes.)  If you have a good, solid coat
of polyeurothane, and you clean up reasonably promptly, hardwood floors
should be fine.  The staining 
occurs because the finish (poly) seal on the wood is incomplete.  This can 
happen because the poly is old and worn, or becuase the floor finish is
really a stain or a non-waterproof varnish.  If you go with poly,
expect the refinish your floors every 10 years or so to keep them well
sealed.  

Our floors are very tight; that is, there is hardly any gap between the
floorboards.  It may be harder to get a good seal of you have wide gaps
between the boards.  

A matte finish looks less plasticy than a gloss finish.

Good luck.  I agree with you: animals are more important than floors!

    To WRKSYS::SCHWARTZ, thanks for your additional note apologizing for
    potentially hurting my feelings.  That was very big of you.  I'm very 
    protective of my 'kids' and do the very best I can to keep a great 
    environment for them AND me but with 7 kids unwelcomed realities rear 
    their ugly heads on occasion.   If there were 'kitty' diapers I'd jump 
    on the opportunity!
    
    Thanks everyone for the additional suggestions!  I found this GREAT
    refinisher, Woodstone Carpentry, and they gave me references that were
    dealing with similar pet issues.  They really made me feel confident
    that I could refinish the floors and not only have them look good but
    hold up to the occasional accident.  They recommended 4 coats of
    Pacific urathane plus one additional of Hydroline Street Shoe
    Industrial finish. I'm very lucky that even with the various dog
    'accidents' from previous owner pets, the planks are solid and very
    tight (ie no gaps at all).  I'm going to go ahead and have the
    refinishing done.  I know the Stret Shoe will give me a very high gloss
    but I'm willing to go with that rather than laying the vinyl over this
    beautiful floor.
    
    Anybody for a game of basketball?
    
    l.
    
    ps - at least now we'll have an excellent case study as to the
    feasibility of refinishing with a HUGE pet population.  I'll keep ya
    posted!
    
    

    
      Good for you. I have the high gloss look on my floors and love 
    them. I also have an oriental rug under my dinning room set and
    the combination is beautiful. Take this from one that could not
    see what made the rugs so popular. I just know that you are going
    to do something that will cause your pride in your house to go up
    many times. Enjoy!!

    It sounds like you have found the answers your looking for... For
    anyone else who is looking for a finish for hardwood, you might like to
    try a finish called "Fabulon" (SP?).  It is typically used in bowling
    alleys where the finish needs repairing on a regular basis.  The nice
    thing about this stuff is that you can sand a local area (stain, burn
    or high traffic area) and apply the finish only to the section you've
    sanded.  The difference is that there will be no edges between the old
    and new finish (it melts the old to provide a transparent transition).
    
    Duncan 

    
    Rep -1
      Nice info! I don't need it at the moment but, I am sure that others
    might like to give it a try. Where can you get it? How much per
    gallon etc.?? Any special applicators needed? How long to dry?
    What kind of maintenance does it require?
    
     Thanks

	Re: Fabulon...

	Can you use it on wood that has already been finished with another
	type of polyurethane?  That is can it be used to fix worn spots?


	_gary

    
    	How hard is it to get the wax off of waxed hardward floors to apply
    a polyurethane finish instead?  Is this a job for a professional sander
    (or rented equipment equivalent) or will several applications of wax
    remover do the trick?
    
    	Thanks.
    
    							-craig

      My  parents  had  a BAD experience trying to put Poly over a floor
      which had been waxed.  Now  this  was  some  years  back  and  the
      formulation  of poly may have changed, but I'd say that you really
      have to get ALL the wax off.

      A  wax remover is a solvent, so I'd expect that it would cause the
      dissolved wax to soak into the floor and make it almost impossible
      to  get  it all off.  Since you'll want to sand the old finish off
      anyway, I'd start with a scraper,  at  least  in  any  areas  with
      obviously  heavy  wax build up, and then a power sander to take of
      the rest of the wax and old finish, and to even up the floor.  The
      reason  for  using  the  scraper  first  is that wax will clog the
      sandpaper pretty quickly; scraping first will save  lots  of  time
      and cost changing paper on the sander.

      Another thing I'd do is this: After sanding I'd try the new finish
      on a small, not-too-obvious section of the floor.  This will  tell
      for sure if the finish will "take".

      I  also  suggest trying some of the new, water-base poly.  Yes, it
      costs a bit more, but its a real dream to work with  and  you  can
      put  on three or four coats in a single day!  The brands I've seen
      have an extra hardener that you add for use on floors. I hear that
      its  worth  the  extra cost for the hardener, but I don't have any
      experience to back this up.

>>                       <<< Note 2.220 by SSBN1::YANKES >>>
>>                       -< unwax waxed hardwood floors? >-

	Some months ago,  I investigated buying some prefinished waxed
	hardware flooring from Sommerville lumber ( chicasaw, $1.78 sq. ft ).
	It's cheap and still a solid 3/4 inch oak.  The salesman said I
	could get 5 years or so out of the finish and then I could SAND
	it all off and refinish with poly.
	
	I ended up going for unfinished red oak at $1.65 sq. ft.  I'm still
	looking for someone to finish it but places I've talked to so far
	have said the job is too small ( 144 sq. ft. ).
	
	Garry

    Look under the recommended contractors.   We used a person named
    Byron _______ the MRO area.  He performed work on two occasions 
    in our Westford Residence.  Times are slow.   Check him out.
    
    frank

    I agree with 2.10
    
    I've had polyurethane on my hardwood floors (oak) for 25 years and it
    has weathered just fine.  Over the years I have given those floors 3
    coats and now it is time for another.  I know you shouldn't use water
    on wood, but every now and then I use a damp rag mop and go over areas
    that look dirty.  I really haven't noticed any chipping, it is more
    like just wearing off.  My house has had plenty of traffic, I raised 3
    children there.  Of course, I'm in California and maybe we get
    different polyurethane out here than you get in the east.  Don't know. 
    Anyway, I recommend it.
    
    S. Lowery
    (I'm a temp.)
    
    

    
    re .224
    
    I didn't think they made polyurethane 25 years ago.
    
    Mike

Well,  my hardwood floor story has a happy ending.  I installed
the unfinished red oak myself and just recently finally got someone to
sand and poly it.  Total cost for 144 sq ft was $150 including
sanding,  a coat of sanding sealer and 2 coats of poly.  Looks great too!
Don't let anyone tell you there's no difference between red and white
oak.  After finishing,  the red oak does have slight redish colorations.

If anyone is interested,  I recommend contacting:

Peter Keller
508-957-5541

He live in Dracut, Mass and seems willing to travel a bit.  He's also
a full time police officer and currently business is good enough for him
to be doing this more or less full time too.

    WOW, There hasn't been any discussion on this subject in awhile.
    
    I have a big stack of old 4" maple flooring from the mill in Maynard
    and I would like to put it down in my living room.  The question is:
    Should I put the flooring down and sand to refinish or try to plane
    the boards before I put them down.  I don't have a planer and I think
    I would have trouble having them planed at a mill as there are little
    metal bits of mails and machinery from the mill imbeded into them.
    I would think that this would do a number on the planer blades.
    The sander would be cheaper but I don't know how it would look.
    
    Any opinions??

    A mill wouldn't touch the stuff if they saw any metal in the wood.
    Some of those high speed bits and blades explode when they hit metal
    imbedded in wood.  The pieces of metal would also do a number on the
    sand paper too.
    
    [As a side note, remember when the environmentalist went around
    hammering nails/spikes into trees rendering them useless as lumber
    in an attempt to save a forest?]
    
    -al

	I had a pine floor that had the nail heads showing, and I sanded
	it with a floor sander/edger combination without any problem.  
	It may have eaten more sandpaper than if it didn't have the
	nail heads showing, but I didn't have broken pieces of sandpaper
	flying all over the place...  The nails were regular common nails.
	Unless the metal you have in the wood is some kinda stainless
	steel or something it should sand ok...

	_gary

    I got most of the larger pieces of metal out when I pulled the nails.
    What a project that was.  We're talking about a stack of wood about
    5 ft tall by three feet wide.  It took about 8 hours to pull the 
    screw nails.  This leads to my next question as it sounds from .17
    that I shouldn't have any problem sanding.  The flooring is 4" wide
    tongue and groove on the ends.  I was thinking of using cut nails as
    the boards have nail holes on the tops (no tongue to nail through) and
    I was thinking of using the same holes for the cut nails instead of
    drilling new one.  This stuff is really hard.  Most of it is birds eye
    maple.  Does this idea sound feasible?
    
    Mark

    I think I'd drill, countersink, use screws, and plug the holes.
    

re: >    I think I'd drill, countersink, use screws, and plug the holes.
    

	That could really turn into a lot of work.. If you figure that 
	to adequately hold the flooring down (without lots of creaks)
	you would attach each board about every 16" (or less) - roughly
	on each floor joist.  Usually when you put down tongue and groove
	boards you nail even closer (some suggest every 2").  


	I guess it really depends on what look you are trying to achieve.
	It sounds like the boards are already a little worn looking since
	they came out of a mill building.  If you don't mind the look of
	an old mill floor nailing them should work fine.  It even adds
	it's own certain charm.

	Just IMHO...

	_gary

    I agree.  That's why I was thinking of using cut nails.  The original
    nails used were round headed screw nails that didn't look that great.
    I don't know if the cut nail heads will sink deep enough into the wood
    to clear the sandpaper but I think it should have an old rustic look.
    
    Thanks for all the comments.
    
    Mark

    This note contains my note & its replys regarding wood floors in the
    kitchen.  Hope it will be helpful to others.  I plan on going ahead
    with a wood floor in the kitchen REGARDLESS of what my family/friends
    tell me!!
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    
From:	ISLNDS::LAUBACH      "Connie - - DTN: 229-7628"  8-MAY-1992 16:37:19.28
To:	 RAGMOP::T_PARMENTER, GOLF::OSBORN,STAR::MATTHES 
CC:	LAUBACH
Subj:	Wood Kitchen Floors,

      Hi,

      Everyone (family & friends) are telling me I'm crazy to consider
      wood floors in a kitchen.  Even the flooring retailer looked
      like he would choke when I ask about it....with all the water,
      etc in a kitchen.

      I noticed in the Home_Work Notes that you folks have wood
      kitchen floors and were happy with them.  Are you still happy?
      Would you do it again?  How many years have you had the wood
      floors?  What are the drawbacks?  

      Any things I should be aware of if I decide to go ahead with
      wood?  All tips welcome.

      Thanks -
      Connie
    
    
    

    From:	RAGMOP::T_PARMENTER "Shim the jamb plumb  11-May-1992 1216" 11-MAY-1992 12:24:04.50
To:	ISLNDS::LAUBACH
CC:	ME
Subj:	RE: Wood Kitchen Floors,

Connie, 

We are still happy with our hardwood kitchen floors after more than a year.
Water has been no problem whatsoever.  Nor has grease.  The floor under the
dishwasher - site of occasional leaks - is no different from the rest of the
floor.  The floor in front of the stove - site of greasy spills - is also 
in perfect condition.  The floor wipes up about the same as a tile floor,
or a little better for my money because it certainly looks better after wiping
than either of our tile floors did.  Water beads up.  We wipe it off.  What's
the big deal.

The only problem we've had with the floor is that the finish has worn through
under one of the four chairs around the kitchen table.  This is just a 
foot-long strip of wear where the chair has been slid back and forth.  

We have latex polyurethane (water-based) on all the hardwood floors in our
house.  The only difference is that the kitchen has what is called water-cured
poly.  That is, it absorbs moisture out of the air as part of the curing
process, instead of just drying the way the regular poly does.  The floor 
folks said that's what they recommended for the kitchen.  It is slightly 
darker and shinier than the other floors, but we have a rug over the point
where the two floors meet and it's unnoticeable.  

I'd be interested in what other responses you get.  Maybe you could put them
all together and add it to one of the kitchen-floor notes.

No reqrets whatsoever.

Tom P.

From:	GOLF::OSBORN "Sally, dtn 234-5383, NRO5/K2  15-May-1992 1334" 15-MAY-1992 14:31:46.18
To:	ISLNDS::LAUBACH
CC:	OSBORN
Subj:	RE: Wood Kitchen Floors,

Dear Connie, 

"They" warned us against the wood floor, too, when we chose it.
Water damage, drop-breakage, and cleaning were the major hazards.

We have hard-wood flooring in the kitchen, made with the standard
3/4 inch thick x 2 inch wide oak boards.  Our special treatment
has short boards perpendicular to the walls, making a border.
The main part of the flooring has the boards running diagonally,
neither perpendicular nor parallel to the main walls of the room.
We also included a cherry stripe, one board width, between the
border and the main room. 

Between October 1987 and January 1988, we installed 700 square
feet of flooring ourselves, in the kitchen, lavatory, bedroom,
bathroom, and stair landing.  We did it ourselves because we knew
our desires were unusual and we knew we could handle the
complicated math.  The carpenters and floor people who have seen
the results are complimentary and agree that their price would
have been quite high.  If you DIY, use the kind of nailing machine
that lets you take several swings at the same nail.  Avoid the 
machine that requires one strong stroke per nail, followed by 
hand work or removal if the first stroke wasn't strong enough!

We ran out of energy and had someone do the sanding and
finishing: three coats of low-gloss poly urethane over three
days.  (We've since refinished the floor of another bedroom
ourselves ... not hard to do.) 

So, the floor and urethane are now four years old and I'm still
satisfied.  The stair treads do show some wear, but not much. The
most finish wear is right at the kitchen sink, just about where
you might expect it.  We have more wear than normal, due to our
cooking practices and the location of the dishwasher. "Somebody"
"ought" "to do" "something" about that, "someday". 

We haven't had any water problem ... we usually mop the spills up
right away.  Sometimes the refigerator is incontinent; the floor 
survives.  We did have a sink plumbing problem which caused
several gallons of water to puddle on the floor overnight several
times in one week ... most of the water drained into the basement
below, since we don't have baseboards yet.  We finished with 
towels and a de-humidifier and had no complications.  (We've had
worse water damage in another bedroom where a steam radiator
leaked.) 

Drop-breakage is about normal for a family.  Drinking glasses and
eggs WILL break when dropped onto the floor; casserole dishes do
not.  The smooth woodgrain pattern makes finding slivers of glass
easier than on a textured and patterned linoleum. 

Cleaning seems simple enough!  We mop up the spills quickly.  The
regular dust and grit hang around until dry-swept and wet-mopped
on alternate Tuesdays.  We use no chemicals (waxes, finishes,
soaps, cleansers, detergents) except Murphy's Oil Soap and water.

You're welcome to see the floor, we live right in Maynard.  
Call if you're interested.

Sally

From:	GOLF::OSBORN "Sally, dtn 234-5383, NRO5/K2  15-May-1992 1543" 15-MAY-1992 15:49:57.42
To:	ISLNDS::LAUBACH
CC:	OSBORN
Subj:	RE: Wood Kitchen Floors,

Connie,

The "bathroom" that has the wood floor is the small room 
containing a shower and a toilet off the master bedroom.  The 
associated sink vanity is next door, "in" the master bedroom, 
similiar to a Holiday Inn hotel.  Someday, that sink may even 
have water, but we've been walking down the hall for, lo, these 
many years!

So the wood floor is only subjected to the showering activities
of two adults.  I wouldn't have put such a floor in a "public"
bath likely to be used by reckless, splashing children.  (My 
child's at college, so I can speak out now!)

Sally

BTW, the wood floor in the kitchen does show marks of heel
indentations, but these marks are made by the skinny metal legs 
of the kitchen chairs.  The marks only annoy me enough to make me 
insist on floor protectors on the NEXT chairs.

From:	STAR::DECWIN::MATTHES      "ZK3-2/S33 381-1187 VMS DECwindows" 18-MAY-1992 10:45:33.59
To:	STAR::ISLNDS::LAUBACH
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Wood Kitchen Floors,


Sorry it's taken so long to get back to you.

I'm still happy with the wood floor.  It does not take water as well as others.
But that has not been a problem.  I had a severe leak when installing a 
dishwasher.  There was some buckling but it only lasted until the floor dried
out again.

We've had it since approx 1976 - refinished it twice.  Not because it was
required but we diecided to stain the floor to match a kitty box stain.
(in another room).  DON'T DO THAT!!  It's extremely difficult to remove the
stain later and it makes the rooms very dark.

Also, do not use a gloss finish or put wax on it.  We have a satin finish.
The gloss finish dulls quickly so folks put wax down periodically to spruce it
up.  To refinish the floor when it is required, the wax must be COMPLETELY 
removed before you can put a coat of poly down or it won't adhere.

To refinish the satin finish, all you need to do is rough it up a little with
fine sandpaper (we use a little palm sander) and pu tdown another coat of poly.

All in all, I recommend it.

--Fred
    

    Any info on how to cure a squeeky wooden staircase,lifted the carpet
    but what next???
    
    Kat

    It is squeeky because boards are rubbing. Which means one or more of
    them is moving vertically. Solution is to stop movement. If the stairs
    are open from bottom, a pilot hole and a properly sized screw should
    pull it in. If from the top, a driven and countersun finishing nail or
    two should do it. 
    
    Obviously, key is finding the right board. Involves you walking and a
    partner with ear and eye close to the stair to locate the offender.

    I'm in the process of hiring a contractor to install a hardwood floor
    in my living room.  After speaking with one of the contractors
    yesterday, he told me I needed a plywood subfloor currently there's
    particle board under the carpet.  The other contractor said that he
    would lay it right over the particle board because the staples they use
    are now long enough to go through the particle board.
    
    I'm not sure what's under the Particle Board -- would that be over
    plywood?  If I do go with the flywood subfloor, how much should I be
    expecting to pay per SF (in in the SO NH area).
    
    Thanks,
    Julie
     

    Re: .86
    
    Can you check in the basement and see whats under the particle board?
    Its most likely 1/2 inch plywood.
    
    Marc H.

>		After speaking with one of the contractors
>    yesterday, he told me I needed a plywood subfloor currently there's
>    particle board under the carpet.  The other contractor said that he
>    would lay it right over the particle board because the staples they use
>    are now long enough to go through the particle board.

I am currently going through this exact same thing.

Under the carpet was particle board, under the particle board is the plywood
subfloor.

Most contractors I talked to preferred that the particle board be pulled
up and to lay the hardwood on the plywood.  The main reason I was told
was because the nails don't hold all that well in the particle board.

I needed to pull up the particle board anyway so I didn't question it too 
much.  I needed to pull up the particle board because the hardwood floor 
going down in this room needed to match the height of the hardwood in 
an adjoining room.  (Also, I would have had to trim the bottom of doors to
give them clearance to open.)

Ok. Sounded easy.  I'll pull up the carpet and particle board, have a
contractor install and finish the hardwood.  Well, the tough part came when
I learned that the particle board is not only nailed down, but also very
well glued down.  Pulling it up was very difficult.  It came up in very small
pieces, leaving lots of strips of particle board still glued down to the
plywood.  I'm in the difficult process now of prying it up... and with it, 
some strips of plywood subfloor that will need filling.

Has anyone got a good way of removing these remaining glued down pieces of
particle board?  I'm using a putty knife and screw driver, but most of the
time I'm pulling up a chunk of plywood with it.

Cheers,
Dan

>>            <<< Note 403.86 by AIMHI::OBRIEN_J "Yabba Dabba DOO" >>>
>>                       -< Hardwood over Particle Board >-

When I installed my hardwood floor over a particle board floor,  I added
a 3/8" sheet of plywood first ( glued and nailed ).  The general recommendation
is to have at least 1/2" of plywood to nail into.  I didn't want the extra
1/8" as the floor height wouldn't have lined up as well.  It been down
8 months now and seems to be holding fine ( no squeeks ).

As for removing the bits and pieces of particle board that still glued to the
plywood,  I think you'd be better off just removing the plywood as well and
replacing it with T+G 3/4" plywood. You really want a nice smooth surface 
to lay the hardwood on.  

Garry

    You could try a heat gun to soften the adhesive. My father have good
    luck removing linoleum flooring that was glued down.
    
    Good luck,
    
    /Jim

>Has anyone got a good way of removing these remaining glued down pieces of
>particle board?  I'm using a putty knife and screw driver, but most of the
>time I'm pulling up a chunk of plywood with it.

FYI.  I ended up using a 1" wood chisel...  It worked pretty well.

Dan

I am restoring an old house (1812) and we have sanded down the floors.  However,
there are spaces between all the boards, some almost a half inch.  The previous
owner had stuffed newspaper between the cracks.  I am now painstakingly removing
this mess.  However, I really don't like the answers in the previous notes about
they used to stuff the cracks with!

I have 5 rooms of wide board floors!!  Has anyone else done any restorations on
wood floors this old with the spaces?  I have lived in some old homes where 
they just kept them, but dust and dirt tends to accumulate in them?  Would the
epoxy wood fillers be useful here, or would it detract from the actual floors?

dana

  If the gaps really bug you, there is no real solution other than to 
lift the boards, butt them to each other, and re-nail them. Anything 
else will just be kludgy. Even this has its shortcomings when weighed
against the labor involved, the potential to split the boards, and the
fact that the baseboard will need to be scribed (as it was when the floor
was first installed) to fit over the boards. Still, if you're careful 
and adventurous, you can do it. Me? I just live with the gaps and 
take advantage of their dirt catching ability. Makes less work vacuuming
that way.

  BTW, I noticed in note 2013.45 that you're looking for someone to
refinish the flooring. I don't know how formal your house is, but the
vast majority of flooring from that period, and earlier, was painted.
Only some of the most formal houses left the floors natural. So take
this as an FYI if you really intend to restore the house.

  Patrick

    I also have an old house.....welcome to the club!
    
    I have found that the only way that seems to work, is to add small
    pieces of wood to fill the cracks. You make the pieces to fit....
    using a plane or other sharp tools tp custom fit the pieces.
    Epoxy/filler just seems to work lose, due to the expanding/contracting
    cycles the wood goes through.
    
    Marc H.

RE: Gaps in floor boards

    I can't remember the exact issue, but in the last year or so of "Old House
    Journal" there was an article about dealing with spaces in wide board
    floors.

- Mark

    
    same as .7 - I cleaned out the cracks and found identical material from
    a demolition site.  Cut it to width on a bandsaw with a slight vee
    shape. Glued one side (don't do both sides to allow for
    expansion/contraction) and hammered it in with a rubber mallet. pin
    every few feet, pinning it to the adjacent board, not the joist, on the
    glue side.  Plane down with a block plane & finish with a belt sander. 
    
    Enjoy your restoration, it's very satisfying work.
    
    Colin
    

What's the cause of these rather wide gaps in old houses' floors?  Is it
simply that wider boards contract more?  The biggest gap I've seen in a
20th century floor is maybe 1/16".

What's the cause of these rather wide gaps in old houses' floors?  Is it
simply that wider boards contract more?  The biggest gap I've seen in a
20th century floor is maybe 1/16".

      Part  of  this  may be that modern flooring is better dried before
      installing.  I think, however, that the main reason  is  that  the
      boards  shrink  as  a  percent  of the overall width 1/16" on a 4"
      board is more than 1/4" on a 18" board (9/32, to be exact).  On  a
      24" board it would be 3/8".
      
      Think of it as fewer but wider gaps.

  Also, central heating compounds the problem further by making the 
air drier thereby causing the floor boards to shrink even more.

  Patrick

     Old House Journal's explanation of why the gaps develop:

     How well dried the wood is is irrelevant.  The wood will reabsorb 
moisture during the summer.

     If the boards are butted together during humid months, then in the 
dry months they will contrtact and you'll have gaps.

     If the boards are butted together during the dry months, then during 
the humid months they will expand, crushing themselves on each other.  
Then during the dry months, they will contract and you'll have gaps.

    It's my impression that wood takes a   l  o  n  g   time to dry 
    completely.  After 100+ years, it has had enough time to get
    truly, completely dry, all the way through, and has been through 
    enough low-humidity winters to shrink completely.  I also suspect
    that over time, as the wood dries, it changes its structure in
    subtle ways; I can't tell you exactly what I mean by that, but
    if you've handled truly old boards that have always been under 
    cover and protected, they feel DRY.  They don't cut the same way
    a "new" board does, either.

Thanks for the explanations -- still sounds like I am back at square 1.  Had 
one person who does restorations say that he has used the sawdust from the 
sanding and mixed it with the polyurethane to fill in the gaps.  The sawdust is 
used because it is the same color as the wood once sanded.  

Several of the floors were painted, but I wanted natural floors.  I may do some
stenciling along the edges in one of the rooms with a darker wood stain -- have
seen this in some homes and it is just gorgeous.  

I would love to be a purist, but I have to be practical with four large dogs and
lots of household traffice -- so I will be using polyurethane since every room 
in the house, including the kitchen will have the wide board floors.  Not the
bathroom, since that was added on when plumbing came to be!

I do subscribe to the OHJ, but just started so I willdefinitely make a trip to
the local library to check out the article.  Thanks for the pointer.

dana

    Re: .15
    
    Instead of using polyurethane....consider the stuff that I have used.
    I have 5 children and lots of traffic. Try using a mixture of 1 part 
    turpentine to 3 parts boiled linseed oil. Brush in, wait awhile,
    and wipe off excess.
    
    The linseed oil converts to a polyimer (sp?) with O2 in the air, and
    forms a tough top layer. Easy to renue also.
    
    Its an old time finish.
    
    Marc H.

  re: (.13)

>     How well dried the wood is is irrelevant.  The wood will reabsorb 
>moisture during the summer.

  This is false. The first sentence, that is. Take the extreme case of 
green wood as proof. If the wood used is green, and the boards are butted,
the resulting gaps will be much larger than if seasoned wood, installed in 
the same manner, was used. It should be obvious that seasoned wood will 
never absorb the amount of water it had when green unless, of course, it's 
submerged in water (which usually isn't the case for most floors).

>     If the boards are butted together during humid months, then in the 
>dry months they will contrtact and you'll have gaps.

>     If the boards are butted together during the dry months, then during 
>the humid months they will expand, crushing themselves on each other.  
>Then during the dry months, they will contract and you'll have gaps.

  So, it's wise to avoid installation of floors during the extreme months.
Furthermore, it's advisable, if you have the luxury to do so, to merely
tack the floor boards down and let them season for several months before
they are regularly nailed.

  The gaps can be minimized by using properly dimensioned wood, properly cut 
wood, and properly seasoned wood. Of the three, the cut is most important. 
A radial cut, commonly called quarter sawn, makes the best flooring for the 
fact that the wood contracts more in its thickness than across its width. The 
old timers had the luxury of selecting from virgin stands as a source for their
flooring. Today, we aren't as lucky. The vast majority of our wood is of a 
tangential cut, or slab/bastard sawn. Here the wood contracts just the opposite
of the radial cut. The results will be obvious when using this for a floor, and
should be avoided. 

  The most common width one finds in old floors is ~12". Anything larger will,
naturally, shrink greater in relation to its width. This doesn't necessarily
mean that larger gaps between adjacent boards will result though. Since the 
floor is nailed, and, therefore, hindered in its movement, the shrinkage can
cause splits about or between the nails.

  Patrick

  Steve,

  I know what you mean about 'ancient' wood feeling different and being
very brittle. But, I believe it still has the capacity to absorb moisture,
maybe not as efficiently as when it was 'young'.

  I think the reason for its different feel is for the fact most/all the 
oils/resins are gone. You can really notice this on white pine, for example,
by all the little crystallized sap nodules that appear on it over the years.

  Patrick

      I have a problem with my hardwood floors squeeking. Well, not squeeking
   maybe crackling noises. When it's cold when you walk on them first thing
   in the morning it sounds like ice cracking. The house is 30 yrs old.

      Anything I can do to remedy this annoyance?


       - Bob

    
    In my old place (1860's) the gaps were very wide - too much to account
    for shrinkage.  It was the same on a 1920's apartment I helped to
    renovated  I think they were originally laid with a small gap for some
    reason (maybe they were originally caulked after installation). What
    had also happened was that the planks had bowed along the width making
    the gap wider, and dried out a lot with later FHW heat installation. 
    Most of the planks had split badly around the nailing.
    
    The stuff was extremely brittle and was secured with iron dog nails -
    impossible to extract or punch down.  This meant that the ends of the
    boards were destroyed where they had to be lifted for lead water and
    gas-mantle pipes to be removed.  The backs of the boards were thick
    with dried sap nodules.
    
    Sounds like they used greener, air-dried wood and didn't nail it too
    close together to begin with.  No wonder it only lasted 100 years!
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    
    
    
       

I was paging through some old issues of Yankee this past weekend and found
that someone had written to Earl Proulx with this very question.  His response
was to soak newspapers and mash them to a pulp, mix the pulp with powdered
glue and work it into the cracks with a putty knife.  (Bear in mind that
Proulx generally answers such questions with "the way it used to be done",
not necessarily the best way.)

My wife commented that what she's seen done is that a special kind of "rope"
is worked into the cracks, but she didn't have any more details.

				Steve

    
    Hemp rope perhaps? Used for caulking between the planks of ships
    in times gone by.   The paper suggestion is a good cheap solution.
    I wonder if it shrinks too much in the drying process?
    
    C.
    

Currently there is paper mashed into the cracks.  Don't know how long it's 
been there, but it is a chore getting it out.  I am taking it out, because
it is not there consistently, i.e., gaps.  But I think this was done temporatily.

    OAKUM (I always thought it was spelled Oakem):
    
    "Loose hemp or jute fiber, sometimes treated with tar, used for
    caulking ships."
    
    This is exactly the process used to caulk the spaces between the logs
    in my cabin in Northwest Maine - built around 1905.
    
    Chet

    
       Try spinkling talcum powder on the floor and sweeping it into the
    seems (if any). 

  This was the closest topic I could find.  We have all hardwood floors and
are purchasing oriental rug type carpets to make the floors warmer to walk
on.  Is there a way to protect wool carpets from spills, such as Scotchguarding
them?  Does anyone have any stain removal tips for wool carpets?  I love the
look, but am no longer looking forward to our housewarming party, because all
that I can think of is how the rugs are going to be ruined! 
	Linda

    We had our rugs cleaned a while ago and they applied a stain guard to
    them.  Try calling a couple of rug cleaning companies.  They can tell
    you what they offer and if there are any guarantees with it.  I would
    imagine the place you buy the rugs from would also have some good
    information.
    
    George

     When I get the rugs cleaned, they get scotchguarded.  Its an extra 
$10 or so a rug.  Cheap insurance, and it really works!!  I spilled a 
glass of red wine on my best oriental, and it all came out.

Gee, for my house warming party, we didn't have any rugs yet and all I had
to do was wash the floors with Murphys oil soap.  Maybe you should roll the
rugs up if you expect a rowdy party.  Actually, the thing that was mostly
on the floor was chocolate cake.  Just choose what you serve carefully (ie
no cake!) such that any food that gets spilled is easily cleaned up.

Of course, you probably want to leave your orientals down (now that I have
one I would too)....  Rope off the room!

Karen

Could somebody point me to the note that includes hardwood floor
refinishing contractors, prices, etc?  I remember reading a number
of entries a few months ago and now that I'm ready to do the work, 
I can't find them for the life of me.

If it helps, I remember a reference to BCM Floor Sanding...

                                          Thanks alot,
                                              Jim

    Try 2013.*

    Although this notee seems to be about spaces in old hardwoof floors, I
    have a question about a fairly recent installation.  We had a 2" white oak
    hardwood floor installed in July.   The room is 24x18.  Recently right
    in the middle of the room there are separations between the boards -
    it's quite noticable.  Is this normal?  I've called the contractor to
    come over and take a look at it.  I would like to know before he comes
    whether or not this is a common occurance - should I be concerned?  Is
    he going to tell me - it's the middle of the winter, things shrink?  
    
    Thanks for your help.
    Jeanne 

    
    Ok, exactly how does "board foot" compare with "square foot"?
    I assumed that board foot was just one foot length of whatever
    wood width you're using (2 1/4" in my case).  I called NE
    Hardwood and they said $2.00/board foot.  I asked how does that
    compare to square foot, and he said "add 33 1/3%, so that comes
    to $2.66".  Then I asked what the waste factor is for unusable
    wood in the bundle, and he said "33 1/3%, like I said".
    
    So is a board foot equal to a square foot?  what is he telling me?
    

    
    
                              Yes.
    

    Square feet are two dimensional.
    Board feet are three dimensional.
    
    A square foot is a square piece of (whatever material) 
    which measures one foot on each side.
    
    A board foot is one square foot of lumber an inch think.
    
    12 inches X 12 inches X 1 inch thick = 1 board foot
    12 inches X 12 inches X 2 inches thick = 2 board feet
    
    Both are a square foot. Did that help or simply muddy the water?
    
    Peter Duke

    The previous explanation is correct.  Also, for calculation purposes any 
    thickness less than one inch is considered to be a full inch.  For wood 
    that is 1 inch thick board feet and square feet are the same.  I've
    never bought wood, either finished or unfinished, for flooring but if
    you're buying the flooring finished 4 sides then 33 1/3 seems awfully high
    to allow for waste since the only waste you need to allow for is
    installation not processing.  If you are going to order the rough stock 
    then you probably really need the 33 1/2 extra to make up for waste
    when paning and jointing the wood.
    
    George

    I suspect the 33% is enough to allow both for waste and for the fact that
    the boards you get are narrower than their "nominal" dimension.  

    You do have to allow some extra for waste, and for the tongue/groove
    "overlap", but 33% sounds a little high.  I just had my entire house
    done (Tri-City Co., from Fitchburg, excellent work), and they had
    allowed 20% overage.  They still had a little left over at the end of
    the job.
    
    /Don

>>    I suspect the 33% is enough ....... the boards you get are narrower than 
      their "nominal" dimension. 
    
    	As I said earlier I've never ordered flooring.	I know that this is 
    true for structural lumber but is this true for hardwood flooring also?  
    Assuming you order 2 1/2" flooring that would have a 1/2" tongue.  What 
    would you get?  2 1/2" flooring with 2" exposure (because of the tongue) 
    or 2" flooring with 1 1/2" exposure because of the tongue and dimension 
    difference?  
    
    just curious
    
    George

    
    Thanks Peter, that's what I wanted to know.
    As far as the waste factor goes, I assumed that it includes
    boards that are too small to use (either some came that small
    or they were pieces left over after cutting others to fit)
    or boards that are bad pieces, maybe split or the color
    is bad (too dark for overall effect).  Are there usually
    many boards that are 'bad' in a bundle?

    The waste factor also depends in part on how much time you want
    to spend searching through the bundles to find a piece that is
    *just* long enough to fill in the space at the end of a row of
    boards.  If you are interested in laying the floor as fast as
    possible and just grab the nearest available, cutting off as much
    as necessary, you'll have more waste than if you spend the time to
    find boards that are only 1"-2" too long.
    
    I suppose it also may depend on the grade of flooring you buy.  If
    you get the top premium grade (whatever it is), presumably you will
    have few (or no) "bad" pieces.

    
    
    When I did my dinning room floor, I figured out what I need
    for coverage and just purchased an extra bundle.  Being carefull
    to layout a bundle first before nailing.  I manage to comeout
    with just a few leftovers.  And I was able to return the unused
    material.  And seeing I was the first time doing this, I found
    out that because of what I did, I was able to take out the damaged
    and unusable section without getting my spacing screwed up at
    the end of each bundle. (ok...I had one spot where I have one seam
    to close to the another and it was difficult to nail together)
    But all together, I was well happy with the outcome and savings...
    
    JD

    The contractor should have placed the materials (uninstalled) in your
    room for at least two days before installation so it can adjust to the
    humidity level. This is especially true if the materials came from a
    moist location, such as a lumber yard. Materials are usually stored in
    a sheltered but not heated space and, depending on when they picked it
    up it may have a reasonable moisture content, higher than an indoor,
    heated space and enough to cause some dimensional change. If picked up
    during a cool, rainy winter period this will be particularly true. This
    process should be followed for paneling, trim or any other wood to be
    installed in a heated space.
    
    If they do not do this, the flooring shrinks after installation (and
    before finishing) as it adjusts to your room, leaving gaps between
    boards. Sealing with a finish should nearly eliminate the visible
    results of seasonal swings in humidity for a properly installed floor. 
    If the contractor did not do this, your gaps will probably be there
    forever, although they may close some in the summer. 
    
    Larry
    

    re: .25
    
    I tend to agree with .26    I installed my hardwood floor in August.
    After bringing the lumber home (like yours, white oak) I opened the
    bundles and let them sit for two days.
    
    Never any noticeable gaps during seasonal swings.
    
    So my anwser to your question would be, No, it is not normal...
    especially if it was done properly.
    
    Greg

    
    I had a house built in Brookline, N.H. last May.  In the living
    room we had Bruce pre-finished oak hardwood flooring installed.
    The boards are 3" wide.  Around the middle to late summer I noticed 
    some of the boards were 'buckling'.  That is in approximately five
    areas where two boards meet, they were lifting.  Nothing excessive,
    but you can feel it when walking over the floor without shoes on.
    A cross-section of floor would look like:
    
      ------/\------/\-----
    
    Obviously less pronounced!  It lifts only about an 1/8".
    
    The builder claims that the moisture inherent in the house from the 
    new wood (studs, joists, etc.) is causing swelling in the floorbards.  
    He contends that this swelling will subside and the floor will go back 
    to being perfectly flat.  Since the summer, the floor seems to be better,
    but there are still spots that are 'buckled'.
    
    I saw some of this floor installed.  3/4" tongue and groove O.S.B. was 
    screwed and glued to the joists.  The red paper was layed over that and
    the bruce flooring was nailed on top of that (Not sure if they used 
    adhesive??).  This floor is over our two-car garage. 
    
    I want to make sure that I get after the builder if there is an obvious
    installation problem.
    
    Any input would be greatly appreciated...
    
    Thanks,
    Dan
                                                

    Was the new flooring allowed to "acclimatize" itself in the room for
    a week or two before installation? If not, then it may have been put
    down wetter or dryer than the subfloor, which is causing the buckling
    as they contract/expand differently.
    
    bld
    

    I am about to finish the basement of our bungalow, but before I finish
    the ceiling, I would like to deal with some squeaks which seem to be
    worse in the winter in out hallway on the main floor. Because of the easy 
    access from below, I would like fix the situation now. Would the
    installation of wood screws from below into the wood hardwood flooring
    fix the squeaks? 

    Advise requested.

    Watching one of the DIY shows (which one I now can't remember), the
    recommendation was to use shims between the joists and offending 
    floorboards. (bought the shims, but haven't tried it yet)

    
    I guess the only way you could do it is to screw diagonally through
    a pre-drilled hole in the joist so that the screws went into the subfloor
    at an angle.  Even then, it would *probably* not get enough grip to cure
    a squeak.
    
    There a squeak-eliminator devices that you can get which attach to the
    beam and have a threaded bolt to pull the offending board down.
    
    Alternatively, you could put up a length of 3x2, with a layer of good
    construction glue on it and screw or nail the 3x2 to the joist.  
    Put something heavy on it while the glue is setting.  That worked for me.
    
                        ======================  Floor
                               | || |\  <--Screw
                               | |+-+ \
                               | |     Glue
                               +-+
    
    You can prop it up temporarily from underneath so that the 3x2
    presses tightly against the floor board.  But bear in mind that
    if the floor is squeaking because it does not have a good fix to the
    joist, pressing *up* too hard may cause a slight bow in the floor
    above.
    
    In other places, we noticed that the josts were kicking out slightly
    and cutting a 3x2 to a tight fit between the joists (about 13.5 inches
    length) worked there.  Hammer them in with a mallet, again with a good
    layer of glue on the 3x2.
     
    
                           ======================  Floor
                         nail->| || 3x2   || |<-nail           
                               | |+-------+| |
                               | |         | |
                               +-+         +-+
    
    Hope this helps,
      
    Colin
    

I just took a number of squeaks out of my hardwoods by using shims as suggested
in -2, along with a little construction adhesive. Floor joists are rarely
straight, so unless the underlayment was screwed or nailed down carefully from
above, gaps will develop between the joists and the plywood, especially in the
winter as exiting humidity makes the wood "shrink."

Brian

    Shims work, for a very short time. Shims do not work for long.  The
    underlying (underlaying) problem will remain. 
    
    Squeeks either come from the floor boards rubbing against the
    underlayment or from the underlayment rubbing against the joists.
    
    Assuming  the floor is accessible from underneath and you know where the
    squeek is coming from...
    
    If you can  insert a THIN shim (flatblade screwdriver works well)
    between the joist and the underlayment, lift the underlayment, squeeze
    in glue (that is normally, now, used to glue underlayment to joists)
    and drill a screw at an angle up through the joist and into the
    underlayment (heavy person on floor above is an asset).
    
    If you cannot insert a thin shim between the joist and the
    underlayment, the problem is likely from the floor shifting against the
    underlayment.  Screws work well, but make sure they are not so long
    that they go all the way through the floor.
    
    Keeping a reasonable amount of moisture in the house during fall and
    winter will help.
    
    Luck,
    Dave

    
    Wow!  over 200 replies!  I waded throu *most* of them...and I'm
    sure I could of missed the a reply or 2 :-)  but I need to know
    the best way to CLEAN my oak hardwood floor!
    
    I dust mop it everyday and every saturday I use Murphy's spray oil
    soap to give it a good cleaning.. then I get on my hands and knees
    and dry it.  But it still is very streakie!  We have a huge bay
    window in the room...and this creates some bleaching also.
    
    I stoped using the Murphys and I just use plan water.. but it's
    still streakie....what can I do?
    
    Once a month I use Butchers WAx to bring the shine back...
    
    We just did the floors 2 months ago... 3 coats of stain and 4 coats of
    Poly and the sine is allready gone!  But I bet 2 dogs and 3 cats do
    not help.
    
    If I cant keep this floor from streaking and dulling.. I will just
    harp on my husband to re-carpet the floor...less work!
    
    Louisa 

    Re: .234
    
    With poly for a surface, I don't know how you can keep it clean of
    streaks and use it.
    
    Have you thought about using an oil finish?
    
    Marc H.

I don't think you should use wax on a polyurethaned floor.  I just use water
on mine.  The Murphy's may be leaving an oily residue.  Sounds like you need
to get through all the junk that's on it, get back to the poly finish, and 
start from there.

Having tried various cleaners (Murphy's, 409, Top Job, etc...) I would recommend
plain old vinegar in water.  I don't have any real good measurement, I just dump
some in a bucker of warm water.  No more streaks.

The vinegar does a great job of cutting through the gunk that builds up on the
floor.  I'm not sure how it would work on a waxed floor (since I don't use wax),
but you could try it out on a corner to see how it comes out.

- Mark

    
    Thanks, I'll try the vinegar and water.  I used the wax becasue it got
    so dull looking.  The wax brough out the sine, but you coldn't
    walk on the floor w/out slideing 6 feet. :-)
    
    Lou

    When we had our floors refinished, the guy who did them specifically
    said not to use Murphy's.  He recommends simply vaccumming or damp
    mopping.

    
      In my opinion, Murphy's oil soap is misrepresented. I used it for
    quite some time on a large oak table and the *wax* buildup was
    substantial. It is quite true that a polyurethane floor doesn't usually
    need waxing. The wax you are applying may indeed be what's causing the
    dulling and streaking. At the least it should all be stripped off every
    so often.
    
    				Kenny

    
    When I had my hardwood floors re-surfaced, poly coated, I was
    specifically told not to wax them. 

                How to Keep Wood Floors Looking Good Over Time

					In the Manchester Union leader, NH
					May 7, 1993 (Copied without permission)
					By Reader's Digest Books

Wood floors will remain attractive if you keep them grit-free and wipe up
spills and foot moisture promptly.

Here are some wood floor-care tips:

o Do not wax polyurethane and some other modern finishes because wax makes it
  impossible to recoat the floor with the finish without first stripping and
  sanding it.

o Keep dirt from being tracked onto your floors by stopping it at the door. a
  pair of rough-textured mats - one on the outside, the other inside the 
  entryway  - will catch a lot of it.

o Glue bunion pads on the feet of tables and chairs so that they can be moved
  without scratching your wood floor. 

o Moving heavy furniture may damage your floors. Slip a piece of plush carpet,
  pile side down, under the furniture legs or cover the furniture legs with 
  heavy socks, or try placing each leg into a "shoe" made from the bottom of a 
  clean milk carton. You'll protect the floor and the furniture will slide 
  more easily.

o Follow the recommendation of your builder or floor finisher about weather or
  not to wax your floors. A finish of penetrating sealer needs the protection of
  wax while varnish may or may not need it.

o Self-cleaning, solvent base polish removes old wax and dirt. Change the
  applicator pad or cloth to prevent reapplying any of the old dirt.

o For a thorough cleaning of wood floors use a liquid cleaning wax containing a
  solvent such as turpentine or nontoxic dry-cleaning fluid. CAUTION: BE SURE
  THAT THE ROOM IS VENTILATED WHEN YOU DO THIS.

o Severe darkening and yellowing of older wood floors most likely caused by
  build-up of many years of varnish applications. The only way to remedy this
  problem is to refinish the floor.

o For a quick cleanup of a wood floor, go over a small area at a time with a
  well wrung-out mop, wiping dry before moving on. Instead of plain water on
  natural or stained dark wood, try cleaning with cold tea. CAUTION: NEVER CLEAN
  A WOOD FLOOR BY FLOODING IT WITH WATER; IT CAN CAUSE WARPING AND EVEN WORSE,
  WOOD ROT. ONLY A SLIGHTLY DAM MOP OR CLOTH SHOULD BE USED, FOLLOWING
  IMMEDIATELY BY WIPING DRY.

O Dusting-moping or vacuuming floors daily is the best way to care for a floor
  because it gets rid of the fine grit that grinds the shine off a floor finish.
 
o Dust mops pick up more dirt than brooms. To make the work go faster, buy a
  commercial 18 inch dust mop at a janitorial supply store.

o Avoid wax build-up on floor edges, under-furiture areas and other light
  traffic areas by only applying wax every other waxing session.

o Keep track of where you do - and don't - want to wax. After you've moved the
  furniture and cleaned the floor, put a piece of newspaper the size of each
  piece of furniture on the floor where the furniture usually stands. Then wax
  around the newspaper.

o For a quick shine between waxings, place a piece of wax paper under your mop
  and work around the room.

o To prevent worn spots on the polished floors in doorways or at the bottom of
  stairs, apply a thin coat of paste wax with a cheesecloth once or twice a
  month. Allow the wax to dry for 15 minutes and the polish; repeat the procedure
  an hour or two later.

o For shallow scratches on a wood floor, buff the area lightly with extremely
  fine (No. 0000) steel wool rubbing with the grain. Then apply two coats of
  paste wax, buffing each coat with a soft cloth.

o To remove white rings on wood, apply a teaspoon of mayonnaise on ring. Cover
  with plastic wrap, allow to sit for about thirty minutes. Remove wrap and
  lightly rub mayonnaise into wood, using a nylon scouring pad. Restore luster
  with paste wax.

    
    Great list! Thank you very much for entering it
    
    

    The hardwood floor in my bedroom looks as if it might have been sanded
    to be refinished, but the job was never finished.  It doesn't look like
    new wood, but it doesn't seem to have any protective finish either. 
    Any spill makes a mark.  There are old marks that look as if they might be
    water splashes.   One brand new mark from this week end when I spilled
    some Skin So Soft splashing it on myself.
    
    First, how do I get it clean?  Second, how do I protect it once it is
    clean?  Do I need a pro for this?
    
    Thanks.
    
    Karen
    

    On the subject of cleaning hardwood floors, Myron at B.C.M. Floor
    Sanding left me the following instructions for my floors which he just
    refinished:
    
    "Do not use an upright vacuum cleaner, as the wheels can be harsh on the
    floors.  Use a cleaning solution of 1/4 cup Windex per 1 gallon cold
    water.  Using a sponge mop (squeeze type) dry mop the floor (squeezed
    [cleaning solution] out all the way) to remove dirt and stains."
    
    He told me it was important be sure that the cleaning solution was
    squeezed out of the mop before using it so it wouldn't leave moisture
    on the floors but would simply lift the dirt and evaporate.
    
    tim
    

	Hi folks,

	I moved to this country (Canada) from a tropical place where
	most of the buildings are made of concrete. I don't feel
	comfortable living in wooden house. I always think that it is
	not strong enough --- shaking under strong wind, foundation
	cracks and sinks, floor squeaking/sagging/vibrating all over
	the place. My house is 12 years old now. I bought it 2 years
	ago. It wasn't too bad at that time but looks like it is
	degrading quickly. Especially the squeaky floor. Does any one
	know the main causes that make a floor to squeak ? Temperature/
	humidity change ? Kids running/jumping around ? What kind of
	routine maintenance is needed for a wooden house ? I have been
	told that the best way to fix floor squeaks is to screw it
	down to the joist. However, would the screws bend the joist
	also ? (See the figure below)


			WEIGHT
		   SCREW   |   SCREW
		     |	   |     |
		     V	   V     V
		====================== FLOOR
		--> | |	   |	| | <-- Joists tend to bend inward
		    | |    |    | |     (They won't bend if there are
		    ---	   |	---	 no screws)
		   JOIST   |   JOIST
			   V
			Floor sags downward

	Could any one offer some suggestion on this ?

	Thanks

	SC

Re: .11

There's no "routine maintenance" needed; though the floors may squeak, they
won't collapse on you.  If the squeak bothers you, look at some of the
suggestions in earlier replies.

If you can get at the joists from below, I've had success with the
"Squeak-Ender" device which you can buy at home supply stores for about
$9.  It consists of a plate which screws to the underside of the subfloor;
the plate has a threaded rod attached.  There is then a bracket which goes
over the bottom of the joist and the rod goes through it.  You then use the
supplied nut to tighten the rod and bracket, pulling the floor down tight
against the joist.  Not much tightening is often needed.

				Steve

    Wooden houses make noises; they just do.  Wood expands and contracts
    with humidity and temperature; there is *NO WAY* to stop this
    completely, short of (perhaps) putting wood in a vacuum chamber,
    pulling out all the air, and 100% saturating the wood with
    plastic resin or something.  As Steve in .11 said though, the
    floors may squeak but they won't collapse on you.  The flexibility
    of wood that leads to the squeaking also makes it very resilant.
    It will absorb bangs, dings, and twists with impunity.  Wood joists
    may develop cracks (with the grain) and still be perfectly servicable.
    
    A wooden house is also very much over-engineered, given the weights
    involved and the strength of wood.  A friend of mine once figured out
    that one could support the entire weight of an average house on
    just four 2x4 posts (of coure, there would be no way to actually
    get that to work, but in theory the 2x4s could support that kind of
    load).  So don't worry about the noises, except insofar as they
    irritate you.  Floors are way over-engineered.  Floor joists are
    sized based on the deflection under load, which results in sizes
    that are considerably higher than they would be if the sizes were
    based on shear strength.  Nothing is going to break.  It may just
    move around a little....
    
    About the only "routine maintenace" one needs to do on a wood house
    is keep the outside wood painted/stained.

    
	>I moved to this country (Canada) from a tropical place where
	>most of the buildings are made of concrete. 
    
    Same here, except from a temperate zone and a stone/brick house.  You
    just have to learn to live with it, or find an older wooden house. 
    Even after screwing down every inch of my bedroom floor @6" intervals,
    it STILL squeaks in one place.  The sister joists under the living room
    worked better.  
    
    The commonest causes of defects are:
    
    	wood was not stable when floor was laid.
    
    		don't know what you can do about this one.
    
    	joists deflect too much - the heel jump test works!
    
    		reinforce if possible
    
    	tongues are too loose in T&G joints
    
    		annular (ringshank) nail through pre-drilled hole in joint
    
    	generally inadequate nailing
    
    		screw or re-nail with annular or screwshank nails
    
    On the bright side, these wooden houses are WARM, and it's a good
    learning experience for buying our next houses right?
    
    regards,
    
    Colin
    
    
    	

   I'm a little confused (well maybe more than a little :-) ).  

   When there are humidity changes, wood expands/contracts much more across 
the grain than along the grain.  There are lots of notes/advice for leaving 
room for wood expansion around the perimeter of the floor.

   OK.  Now what happens when a floor inlay pattern runs perpendicular
to the main floor grain?  Wouldn't the expansion rates be different and
cause problems at the corners of the inlay?

   For example, suppose the drawing below represents a main floor (--)
with an inlay pattern (== and |).  When the main floor expands (vertically
as shown), and the "|" inlay doesn't (since its grain runs vertically), 
wouldn't this open up a gap at the inlay corners?  (where = meets |).

        -------------------------------
        -------------------------------
        ------===================------
        ------|-----------------|------
        ------|-----------------|------
        ------|-----------------|------
        ------|-----------------|------
        ------|-----------------|------
        ------|-----------------|------
        ------|-----------------|------
        ------|-----------------|------
        ------|-----------------|------
        ------===================------
        -------------------------------
        -------------------------------

   I want to do an inlayed floor, but I'm worried about this?  Anyone
out there have an answer?  How about you folks who've done an inlay
floor, are the joints still tight?

Thanks!!!

...Ken

RE: .6

    My girlfriend has this kind of floor in an upstairs room: mostly oak with
    a mahogany inlay.  It was laid in the winter, with a bit (how much I'm not
    sure) of pressure to close up all the gaps.  When the wood expanded in the
    summer, some of the wood fibers were crushed.  As a result of this and the
    usual moisture content stability some gaps have appeared.  However, none
    them are very large (1/32" to 1/16").

    The bottom line is you will always have wood movement, you can do some
    things to minimize it (quartersawm lumber, narrower pieces, finish all sides
    of the wood, etc.)  From a practical standpoint, the gaps in the floor are
    not all that noticable.

- Mark

	Thanks for all the replies. Is deflection of joist under load
	being considered as normal ? I am not worrying that it will
	collapse on me, but deflecting / moving too much or too often
	may deform the floor or loosen the joints (nails). Few days ago,
	when I was sitting on a chair and my son (about 50 lb) ran beside
	me, the floor bounced up and down. I can't feel the floor movement
	caused by the weight of myself but when I walk close to a wall,
	I can hear the wall (or something hanging on the wall) sounds
	which means that the floor is moving to an extent that it shook
	the wall. Again, it wasn't like this when I bought the house 2
	years ago. Something has changed.
	Anyway, I am planing to lift the tiles and carpet to screw the
	floor down to the joists. It is going to be a big job and may
	take several months to complete. What size of screw should I use ?
	Should I drill a hole first ? or just screw it down by a screw gun ?
	What interval is appropriate ? 6" ? If I add another layer of
	padding under the carpet, would it absorb the impact ? Please
	help. Thanks in advance.

	SC

    The bouncing is more likely caused by a lack of cross-bracing between
    the joists which would increase their stiffness.  Cross-bracing is
    standard construction technique.  You can add cross-braces anytime.
    
    					Steve

    A typical design deflection limit is 1/360 of the span of the joists;
    that is, a 12' joist is allowed to deflect up to 12/360', or .4", with
    the design load (typically 40 lb/sqft).  Note that that's 40 lb/sqft
    over the *entire floor*, not a point load.
    
    I wouldn't think it would take you all that long to screw down the
    floor; get some 1.5" drywall screws, an electric screw gun, and have
    at it.  No need to pre-drill holes. If you're feeling particularly 
    enthusiastic, put them every 6"-8".  Once you get into the rhythm of
    it, you may to be able to put in a screw every 10 seconds.  It should
    go fast.
    
    Good idea in .16 about cross-bracing (also called "bridging").  It
    will be described in any good house-building book.  If you're totally
    new to wood house construction, and I guess you are, you might consider
    buying a book like "Modern Carpentry," which I assume is still
    available.  It describes all the standard practices used to build
    wooden houses.
    

    You ask, "Is deflection of joist under load considered normal?"
    Yes - everything deflects under load, including the floors in 
    your former concrete house; the deflection was just a lot smaller
    and you couldn't notice it.  Wood has noticable deflection with
    relatively small loads, but everything deflects under load, somewhat.
    A friend of mine has a metal-turning lathe in his basement, on a 
    concrete floor.  When he first set it up, he happened to put it on
    a weak section of floor and the lathe would move (as measured by
    movement of a .001" dial indicator on the lathe) when he walked
    around.  So everything moves, some.  He's since relocated the lathe
    to another part of the basement where the floor is more solid and
    the dial indicator shows no movement...but does that mean the floor
    is not moving when he walks on it?  No, it just means the movement
    is so small he can no longer measure it.

	I have about 70% of my basement finished so I can't see most of
	the joists. From the remining 30%, I can see cross-bracing between
	the joists. However, some of them had been removed to install the
	air ducts, water pipes and cables. I assume the unseen area would
	pretty much be the same. It is a big surprise to me that the joist
	can deflect as much as 0.266" (I have 8' span). If I understand
	correctly, the diagram would look like the following. Please correct
	me if I am wrong.

			  SCREW	   WEIGHT     SCREW
			     |	      |         |
			____ V        |         V ____ SAGGING FLOOR
			    ____      |       ____
			   / /| ---   V    --- |\ \
		JOIST --> / / |    --------    | \ \ <-- JOIST
			 / /  |		       |  \ \
			/ /   |		       |   \ \
			  |   |                |   |
		0.266"--->|   |<--          -->|   |<----0.266"
			  |   |                |   |


	I think if I don't screw them down, the joists won't deflect that
	much. Am I right ?

				   WEIGHT
				      |
			____          |           ____ SAGGING FLOOR
			    ____      |       ____
			    | | ---   V    --- | |
		   JOIST -->| |    --------    | |<-- JOIST
			    | |		       | |
			    | |		       | | 


	How much can a joist bend downward over a 8' span ?

	I am not saying it will take me months to do the screwing. But
	removing tiles/carpet and recovering them takes time. (and money).

	SC

    re .19
    
    That seems like quite a bit of deflection for a 8' span.  Normally, I
    would ask if the joists are only 2"x6" (much too small)? or are they
    more than 16" apart?  However, since you indicated in your earlier note
    that the deflection was not always there, I would look to see if a)
    anything drastic has happened (earthquake, major renovatino, etc) or b)
    extreme settling of one wall causing a gap where there should be
    support and, therefore, room for deflection.
    
    Dave

    Nope, you've got the deflection going the wrong way.  Side view of
    joist:
    		distributed load, 40 lbs/sqft maximum
    |	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|
    V	V	V	V	V	V	V	V	V	V
    +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
    |									|
    |									|
    +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
    ^				---					^
    |				 ^					|
    				 |
    			center of joist may bend
    			down to here under maximum
    			load (.266" in your case).
    
    Notice that that's under maximum design load of 40 lb/sqft; your typical
    floor loading will be nowhere near that.  Cross bracing, etc. helps
    to distribute point loads over adjacent joists so any load directly
    above a single joist is carried by others as well.

    Now, as an experiment, I have removed a small portion of the tiles,
    screwed down the floor at 6" intervals. The squeak is fixed but the
    sagging/vibration still there. Is there a easy way to measure the
    deflection to see whether it is within limit ?
    
    Thanks
    
    SC
    

	Re: .11 et al

	There would seem to be a basic misconception (if I am reading
	these diagrams correctly).

	The deflection of a a joist under load is vertical, not horizontal.
	So, over an 8 foot span, and an allowed deflection of 1/500, the joist
	can deflect 0.2" vertically at the centre. The horizontal
        deflection will be negligible.

	Wooden houses are usually designed based on deflection limits, and 
	concrete structures on stress limits (for wood, the deflection limit
	is typically reached before the stress limit, and vice versa for 
	concrete).

	diagrams have been pinched from replies .11 and .19:

			WEIGHT
		   SCREW   |   SCREW
		     |	   |     |
		     V	   V     V
		====================== FLOOR
		--> | |	   |	| | <-- Joists tend to bend inward
		    | |    |    | |     (They won't bend if there are
		    ---	   |	---	 no screws)
		   JOIST   |   JOIST
			   V
			Floor sags downward

	The joists do not tend to deflect in or out (oh, all right, very 
	marginally, by my calculations less than 0.01 degrees of arc).
	The joists will deflect vertically, in the direction of the load,
	and they will do this regardless of whether there are screws 
	present or not.
 
	On thin rectangular sections on edge, the column limit can be 
	reached before the extreme fibre stress limit, thus provision of 
	cross bracing. On anything less than 2" by 10" (or 1:5 aspect 
	ratio) the cross bracing is purely decorative in torsion/column 
	terms - what it does do is to provide increased coupling to 
	dampen vibration, and has a limited effect in spreading some point
	loads to adjacent structural members.

			  SCREW	   WEIGHT     SCREW
			     |	      |         |
			____ V        |         V ____ SAGGING FLOOR
			    ____      |       ____
			   / /| ---   V    --- |\ \
		JOIST --> / / |    --------    | \ \ <-- JOIST
			 / /  |		       |  \ \
			/ /   |		       |   \ \
			  |   |                |   |
		0.266"--->|   |<--          -->|   |<----0.266"
			  |   |                |   |

	Even if the floor is screwed to the joists, the above picture does
	not happen. The floor will look, after being loaded, pretty much as
	follows:



				   WEIGHT
				      |
	Loaded floor	====          |    ============  Unloaded Floor
			    ====      |        | |
			    | | ===   V        | |
		   JOIST -->| |    =======     | |<-- JOIST
			    | |		       | |  V
			    | |		       +-+ -- 
			    +-+                    --
						    ^
						    | 
						This will be the deflection
						(max 0.2" allowed for 8' span)

			      |<-------------->| This will not change


	regards,
	Michael Watts.
                                      

    I'm currently in the process of trying to hire somebody to refinish
    some hardwood floors in our new home.  Is there any "rule of thumb" to
    follow when pricing contractors?  For example, how many $$$/square foot.
    
    -Al

    
    I just read somewhere that the average going rate is between $1.25
    to $2.50 per square foot for refinishing hardwoods.