Conference 7.286::sports_90

    So what are you trying to say?? I'm sure there is more to this story
    than what you just said. Was he in the area of the robbery and/or was
    his car similar to the get away car. There could be a number of
    reasons to why the police did what they did!! And what does [ a wealthy
    area] have to do with this story??
                                                            M.J.

    The robbery happened the day before this incident.  A bank teller
    said that the suspect was wearing a white cap and a dark running
    suit.  When he (Brown) went to pick up his mail the next day, he
    was wearing a white cap and a dark running suit.  The teller spotted
    him, from across the street, and called the cops.  I guess there
    was another bank near the post office and she (the bank teller)
    thought he might be robbing that bank. 

Good Morning Karen,

Do you know yesterdays' Sox and Jays scores?

Tks in advance,

rick ellis

    In the immortal words of the Bible of Boxing :
    
    I ain't saying nuttin ...

    >I ain't saying nuttin ...
    
    How refreshing that would be for us, Midnight.
    
    After showing a willingness to squander the black prerogative over
    a_assault & battery artist like Kermit Washington it's "the boy who
    cried wolf" time in a genuine incident as we have here.
    
    Good to see ya learned your lesson.
    
    MrT

    Ha T, it's refreshing to know that you can still insert foot in mouth
    better than anyone - even while your mutated crainum is stuck in your
    Plate Platform (tm) doing inventory.
    
    Anyhow, I've said so much about New (people Same Old *hit) England, I
    think people know where I stand. I'd like to hear from the Dave Carr's
    of the world who seem to think that I yell racist too much ....

       Would someone who thinks the cops were wrong please explain how they
    should have acted when they get a call from a robbery victim who says
    the guy may be across the street. He was armed during the holdup.
    How would YOU handle it? Every one yells "Excess force" and "racism"
    tell it to a dead cops' wife.
                                           Denny

    Dock, did you happen to catch JJ Walker on the Downey show the other
    night?  The man has an interesting perspective on the "black-white
    thing", as he called it.  Also very interesting were his opinions on
    Jesse Jackson and Spike Lee.  Just curious if you saw it and what your
    opinion of JJ's opinions would be........
    
    Hawk

    re .10
    
    No Hawk, I did not, but feel free to tell me what you heard and think.
    I'm interested ....

    Okee doke.  I'll send mail.  :-)
    

    Denny, the officers involved forced Brown to the ground, waved guns in
    his face, even after he had assumed the position. From what I
    understand, they were needlessly rude and abusive to his fiancee.
    Most importantly, Brown in no way resembles the suspect.
    
    From the description given, the officers could have no more confused
    Brown and the suspect than Brown and Dennis Johnson (who is
    light-skinned with rather light eyes) - and the suspect is lighter than
    DJ.
    
    I suppose will all DO look alike huh ?
    
    The police could have pulled alongside Brown quietly, and checked him
    over without compromising their security, or infringing upon his
    rights.
    
    Instead, they made asses of themselves, and embarrassed and humilated
    an innocent couple.
    
    And Denny, I've been a victim of police harrassment. Like Ryan said,
    I'm not an NBA player, so I don't rate a page 1 story in the paper.
    
    What you ought to think about is that the Brown case is nothing new at
    all.
    
    Consider that.
    

	I wonder if the cops even bothered to sit a while, observe the car,
and get a ID on the car from the license plate??? I doubt it!  I hope
Brown gets a good lawyer a sues the town's pants off...

JimH

    
    > Would someone who thinks the cops were wrong please explain how they
    > should have acted when they get a call from a robbery victim who says
    > the guy may be across the street. He was armed during the holdup.
    > How would YOU handle it? Every one yells "Excess force" and "racism"
    > tell it to a dead cops' wife.
    
    Maybe this version would be credible if Dee Brown even remotely matched
    the description of the suspect, which by all accounts he did not. 
    For what reason was Brown, unarmed and upon closer inspection obviously 
    not the person the police were looking for, held to the ground for 20 
    minutes while his identification was being checked?
    
    Unfortunately, this kind of thing occurs fairly frequently in the
    Boston suburbs, but is only sporadically reported.  About twice a year,
    Derrick Jackson, A-A columnist for the Globe, details a story where 
    a friend or aquaintance of his receives some shoddy treatment from the
    Boston locals, no explanation offered, before eventually being released. 
    Everyone yawns, Jackson is brushed off as pseudo-militant, and nothing
    changes.  In this case, a well-known (but obviously not well-known
    enough) athlete is mistreated, and suddenly the general populace gets
    to see the truth in all of its ugliness.
    
    I'm sorry, but being a black person in a predominately white area is 
    not a good enough reason for someone to have his civil rights
    violated.  The police, fear of loss of life notwithstanding, are
    constitutionally bound to have more to act on than that.  Not a single
    one of us would be "understanding" if we were stopped and mistreated 
    based on a single, non-distinguishing physical trait.  Dee Brown
    shouldn't be either.
    
    glenn
     

    Time did not permit me to write all of the key exerpts from the Globe.
    
    Also, since many of you believed that Dr M was "Crying Wolf" again,
    could the same  be said of Mike Madden and Bob Ryan ?
    
    The descriptions a "wealthy suburb" and the "...route of the Boston
    Marathon" were for the benefit of those Noters who live outside of
    Mass.
    
    Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, sound as if somebody is defensive already !
    
    Edwin

    	If Dee Brown didn't play for the Celtics he might still be in
    jail this morning, or worse.  

    
    Ya Denny, I think your sucking swampwater on this one! It was a sheer
    case of typical over-reaction on the part of the police. The fact was 
    that they could've run a make on the car before embarrassing the hell 
    out of themselves and the town. How about a pair of binouculars? 
    What if one of those cops acciedently pulled the trigger? 
    
    
    
    Steve

While I agree with most of what's been said already, let me offer
a slightly different viewpoint.  (I'm not discounting the fact that
this happened in South Boston, btw).

Anyway, I received from free tickets to a heavy metal concert in
New Haven one time.  So, I decided to go, but because I was technically
on call from work (another company at that time) I had to at least
"wear" my pager, even though I knew I'd NEVER hear it.

I was dressed rather plainly, with jeans a t-shirt and zip up sweatshirt.
I wasn't wearing all the leather etc associated with most of the fans.

As my date and I were entering the coliseum, we encountered the line
where they were patting down the concert-goers.  I saw several
people in the other lines being patted down, and their jackets etc
lifted while they were made to put an assortment of guns, knives
and brass knuckles into a box.  

When I got to the front of the line, the officer (a cop, not just
a security guard) patted me down, felt the pager, and went into
nuclear disaster mode.  In like a nanosecond he'd yanked me by the
collar, and down on the ground.  When Attila the Hun realized it was
just a pager, he helps me up.  I got mad and called him a f___in'
asshole, but he let that slide.

Anyway, the point is that in any group there are good and bad people.
These cops sound like they over-reacted to the max, but I'm trying to
make the point that there could and probably are other factors operating
here besides raw racism.


Just some more grist for the new, improved Adult Sports Mill....
'Saw

    Personal Experince :
    
    My 2nd day here in N.E. I was living in Concord (Temp Housing). I had
    stayed in this hotel before for my house hunting trip, so I was no
    stranger to mgt of the hotel, or at least I shouldn't have been.
    
    Anyhow, I checked in, and because DEC was paying, gave the hotel clerk
    an imprint of my credit card. 
    
    An hour later, the hotel clerk tells me that she decided to run a scan
    on my card (I've talked to several people who have stayed in the hotel
    - I was the FIRST person to have his number scanned) - and my account was 
    past due (a check sent earlier hadn't gotten there) - could I come down 
    with another card whenever ? I tell sure - but I need to go to Logan
    and pick up a friend. Hotel says no problem.
    
    I get back to said hotel, and I find a 'boot' on my door (preventing me
    from getting in). I raised a lot of hell, and I give them another card.
    Boot is removed, and I'm back in. 
    
    Well, my AMEX card gets flagged too. I go down to the lobby to check it
    out. I call AMEX so that I get their Emergency Check In, and I'm
    talking to the operator using the lobby phone. Things are getting
    starightend out, and in comes THREE cops. At 12:20 in the morning. 
    
    They were there because a clerk had called them about me, and they came
    there looking for trouble. 
    
    To make a long story short, I endure the harrassment, prove that I'm
    no thief, and stay the night there (after having to put down my licence
    plate #, SS#, and a buch of s**t on the application that most people 
    normally never put down). 
    
    Result ? Technically, there was probable cause (because of my card) to
    call the cops, but everyone involved knew that the whole thing was
    harrassment. But there was nothing that would hold up in a court of
    law.
    
    Nevertheless, after my manager and Corporate Personell found out, I was
    the last DECcie to spend a night there. (My moving out, and not
    spending 30 days there cost those rednecks $5,000)
    
    Score one for DEC, and zero for New England.
    
    DrM

    Doc,
    
    I've already stated my incredulity over this affair in Celts, but as
    you've seen fit to personally bring my name up...
    
>    Anyhow, I've said so much about New (people Same Old *hit) England, I
>    think people know where I stand. I'd like to hear from the Dave Carr's
>    of the world who seem to think that I yell racist too much ....
 
    I don't think you yell racist too much.  I never said that.  During the
    Jerome Stanley incident, I chastised you for ONLY coming out against
    the treatment Stanley was receiving AFTER you found out he was black!
    My point was, and remains, that if Stanley was white you would have
    never mentioned a word about this lawyer-scum (an opinion that I, and
    others, made BEFORE finding out he was black, and one that I will
    continue to hold).
    
    I am upset that such incidents continue to happen, and I continue to
    believe that such treatment is NOT indicative of the feelings of the
    MAJORITY of Boston-area residents.  It is a sad commentary on the human
    condition that enough yahoos with nearderthal ideas are still roaming
    the streets of Boston to continue this bullsh!t...
    
    As I said before, I will certainly protect your right to protest racial
    injustice wherever you find it - I merely wanted you to think about it,
    and insure that you weren't just crying wolf over the Stanley incident.
    
    As I said in Celtics, I just hope that something positive can come out
    of an event like this, and that the public outcry from the vast
    majority will wake up a few more neanderthals, and get them to mosey
    into the 20th century...
    
    ML
             

    RE: -1
    
    So you blame the entire Region of New England. Now who's being a 
    bigot? I can't believe you of all people forget about what you 
    preach in this file. Talk about your sweeping generalizations.
    
    
    
    
    Steve

>>    Score one for DEC, and zero for New England.
    
Dock --

I don't usually openly differ with you on a lot of issues, but
in this case, I think making sweeping generalizations about 
New England is the same thing as me making sweeping, racial
generalizations about black people.

There are many people I know in New England, people who's families
go back for generations, that would take you (and I mean you generically,
whether you are black, white, hispanic, asian or *whatever*) into
their home on Thanksgiving Day if your car broke down, or give you
a ride if you were stuck in the snow on Christmas eve, or in some cases
even loan you money if you'd been robbed.

I know a lot of good people from this area who are somewhat conservative
in nature, quiet by choice, but who have a goodness in their hearts
that is hard to find anywhere else on Earth.  They naturally reticent,
which is a quality most mistakenly described as cold by people not
from this area...

If you want to talk about racists individuals, I'll put money down that
you will find them anywhere on God's green earth, but to talk of
New England as if "IT" were completely and totally racist, really does
not sit well with me.

with all due respect (and I mean that),
frank

    
    That reply was for Mr. Brooks. DCarr was too fast for me!

    Denny,
    
    I understand the idea about the cops dead cop's wife and all.
    But 7 cops?  For someone who only matches the description of
    a sweatsuit and a cap?  Now, if this were the suspect:
    
    1) Who would THAT stupid to come to the scene of the crime
    the next day in the same outfit?
    
    2) Why would he sit in the car for that long a time when he
    was in sight of the bank holdup?
    
    Ok, assuming this guy is this stupid, why would 7 cops at
    gunpoint deter this guy?  Sounds to me like if he were this
    dumb, he wouldn't be playing with a full deck and there's no
    telling what he would do.
    
    There should have been some kind of check on a license, or description
    or something.  The same sweatsuit and Black don't cut it.  What
    if someone was pulled over in Roxbury or Dorchester or somewhere
    for wearing a t-shirt, jeans and sneakers?  Both the teller and
    the police overreacted.  A tip doesn't need to have 7 cars unless
    the woman is sure.  There's no way should could have been that
    sure or else she needs some classes or contact lenses.
    
    As people have said, the only thing that made this noteworthy was
    that it was Dee Brown.  If it had been someone else, it would have
    been downplayed or not even covered in anything before page 10.
    I'm sure it was a nice welcome to Dee.  Maybe he'll talk to Brian
    and Reggie and they'll give him a better view of the area and the
    Celtics... yeah, right....

       So now it's 'New England' that's the problem? How about the cops
    in Houston who were killing Hispanics and dumping them in the river?
       Isn't it funny how Bob Ryan can become a genius when you agree with
    him?                                  
                                                 Denny

    re .23
    
    Frank, I've met many great people in NE - Black, White, Asian. For all of 
    the ups and downs I've had in my 2+ years, coming up here was one of
    the best things I've ever done, and I've no regrets.
    
    And before I came up here, I was warned by people that N.E. in general,
    and Boston in particular, could be a hostile place for a non-white. All
    in all though, I've been lucky and pretty happy. But bolts of
    lighting like the Brown situation brings reality back home with a
    crash.
    
    This kind of thing can and does happen at anytime.
    
    And I don't prejudge - rather I TRY not to. 
    
    If I were you, I'd consider .20 a reason for more people to take
    responsiblity for the garbage up here, rather than stick one's head in
    the sand, or (more likely) shoot the messenger.
    
    I will be frank, I have near-total lack of respect for the
    Massachusetts law enforcement community. And I am a law-abiding
    citizen. Let's just say that I have a distinct adversion about being
    followed by cops in the middle of the night (Boston, Northboro, and
    Shrewsbury).
    
    I can confidently say that I give all people a chance before judging
    them, but I most certainly keep my guard way up.
    
    Look at it this way - if a Doberman bit you in the a$$, would you ever
    welcome a Doberman with open arms and no reservations again ?
    
    DrM

    re .26
    
    Yeah Denny it is amazing isn't it ? 
    
    And no, Houston pre-1982 was about as corrupt and brutal as a major
    city's police force could be. 
    
    For the last time, I apologize to anyone who felt I pained New England
    with a broad brush.
    
    But I'll aslo say this - Massachusetts in general (New England by
    extension), and Boston in particular have a very racist reputation.
    Denny, you'd be better served by taking some of the righteous anger
    towards me, and directing it against the jerks who promote the racism,
    instead of apologizing for them.
    
    I know how Dee Brown feels. And I empathise with him. After something
    like that happens to you, you never look the same way at people again.
    How can you ? You see a police car following you, and you wonder, why
    me ?
    
    It isn't fun. And Denny, while you are getting riled about a N.E.
    *possibly* getting tarred, I think about the *probability* of a Dee
    Brown getting stopped.
    
    And so should you. 
                                                                          

   New England (and you know this is true) is totally rascist. Every man,
   woman and child. Also dogs, cats and gerbils.

   HOWEVER...

   Docker Manyzeros is an extremely weird and suspicious looking
   character. Probably dangerous, too. If I lived there, I'd do my level
   best to have him arrested on a regular basis. Then have the police tie
   him up and force him to watch the tape of every Celtic win since the
   team was formed.

   heh heh heh (tm)
   Mike JN

    Denny,
    
    Suppose you were in your car, wearing a cap and say a flannel shirt,
    and 7 cops came up, guns drawn, chucked ya on the ground, said stuff
    to your women friend, then said "Oh Sorry, mistake".  You then found
    out you didn't even come close to fitting the description of the
    guy they were looking for, but you happened to be the same color.
     
    
    I had a friend in Brooklyn (white, FWIW), who had a shaved head
    - a guy who escaped from Walpole had a shaved head - but didnt'
    have any other physical characteristics.  The Brookline police
    department broke down the door of his house, threw him onthe ground,
    handcuffed him, and literally dragged him to the police station.
     They gave him the 'sorry' routine.  And told him "Hey, if you are
    going to have a shaved head, be ready to be harrassed..."
    
    Nice, huh.
    
    Re General
    
    Racism is everywhere, but the Boston area has a rep for being bad.
    These type of incidents happen too often in the aflluent suburbs
    of Milton, Wellesley, etc...
    
    JD

    Re: .20
    
    Doc, sounds like your 2nd day in SPORTS notes, only we didn't see you
    first ;-)

    In Doc's defense...
    
    My wife and her family (they're Mexican) used to received grief from a
    select few because they thought she and her family were Puerto Ricans.
    
    There are stereotypists everywhere (except Dinz of course).

     RE: Positively no excuse...
    
         Brown Incident Another Case of Area's Prejudice

     That is the title of the Bob Ryan article in the Boston Globe.

     Some exerpts...

     The police officers, like most everyone in Wellesley, are Caucasians.
     Brown is an African-American. This is a front page story for
     one reason only, the celebrity of Dee Brown. If Dee Brown happen to
     be the young IBM trainee he is capable of being rather than a large
     part of the Boston Celtics future, you would be unaware of the 
     incident. It would be just another Day in the life of an African-
     American in a troubled society.

     The Wellesley police can say what they wish, but white people don't
     have to put up with this. At least when white people are involved, 
     a description  is worth something.
    

    DrM,
    
    No one should have endure that Bull...not even a Laker fan :-).
    
    I am just a tad surprised that you wouldn't be a great deal more bitter
    about it.
    
    When I first heard the news it was on TV Channel 56 and it just
    mentioned a Celtic, no details. Then I saw the Mike Lynch interview,
    my initial reaction was one of horror... I said to myself Oh S*** !
    
    The more I think about it the more I feel rage. I believe that a
    lot of New Englanders also feel rage because it exposes the region
    to a recurring nightmare.
    
    I wish it would end, but wishing doesn't make it so. I wrote a
    letter  of support to Dee...I also said" Sue the Mothers !
    
    JMO,
    
    Edwin

    
    
    Its sad is the 90s, and racism, hated, etc, etc  still exist..
    
    damn shame
    
    
    Jim
    

    RE:.36
    > I find it
    > extremely difficult to believe that in a town of that size and that
    > affluence the attitude of the local police force would run so counter
    > to that of it's citizens.
    
    The town is predominately upper class W-A-S-P.
    The police are lower economic class whites who probably are mostly
    high school graduates.
    
    Edwin

    That situation could have definately been handled better by the police. 
    I know because I've seen it done properly by the boys in blue.  It
    happened like this:  There had been a string of robberies around the
    Hawiian Islands.  A description of a suspect was available.  While in
    the airport doing surveillance, a police officer saw someone standing
    in line who matched the description.  The officer and his partner came
    up to the suspect, asked him to step out of line, and started asking
    him some questions to verify his identity and whereabouts over the past
    few days.  When the questions were done, the suspect was allowed to
    rejoin the line after being given an apology for detaining him.  No
    physical contact, no threats, no abuse of any kind were dished out by
    the police.
    
    
    
    And as Paul Harvey says, now for the rest of the story:  The guy they
    pulled out of line was me.  It was the end of my honeymoon and I was
    getting ready to board a connecting flight to the mainland.  I must say
    that I matched the description they had pretty well.  The guy they were
    looking for was considered somewhat dangerous, yet they treated me with
    respect and didn't jump to any conclusions.
    
    What those cops did to Dee Brown was inexcusable.  It could have been
    handled in a much better manner.

    Amen to that, Mac.  Although, I do know of another incident similar
    to it.
    
    A fellow worker, of Italian descent, was in Italy on business for
    the company we worked for.  According to him, it was a frightening
    time.
    
    It seems that a criminal broke out of jail and the entire countryside
    was on the lookout for him.  My friend Louie was in a rental car,
    parked on the street while he was deciding where to go for dinner.
    
    He said he noticed that there were some strange-looking guys stealing
    glances at him, and he figured that they might be trying to set
    him up for a mugging.  Anyway, as he was looking around to see how
    he could get by those guys, a car came screaming up and slid to
    a stop right next to his.  Men jumped out and pointed some automatic
    weapons at him, while the guys he was worried about also assisted
    in surrounding his car, while they were holding weapons which were
    pointed at him.
    
    They got him out of the car and frisked him, then checked the car.
    All the time, he was scared sh*tless, he said.  
    
    They took him to the station, and grilled him for some time.  Finally,
    he was allowed a phone call and he got the plant manager of where
    he was visiting to come down and identify him.
    
    We kidded him about it for a long time, but I know it isn't something
    that I'd like to experience.
    
    In the Brown case, it does seem that there may have been some
    racial overtones involved.  If so, it's unforgiveable.  Even if
    there was no issue of color involved, it's still a horrible situation
    for someone to find themselves in.
    
    I won't try to speak for all, or even many of us, but I do know
    that I am part of the problem.  That is, I get upset when something 
    happens that is a result of bigotry, yet I'm complacent when there
    aren't any headlines.  I don't believe I consciously ignore bigotry
    or racism, but neither do I think about it until an ugly situation
    occurs.  I'm sure I would be involved in a cause if *I* were personally
    threatened by a similar problem.  But, that doesn't help Dee Brown,
    does it?
    
    It's a sad commentary on our society.
    
    Lee

    Oops, I forgot one thing:  The reason Louie got this treatment was
    that the car he was driving was identical to one that the escapee
    had stolen.  While he did have some similar personal features, like
    dark hair and a husky build, he said he didn't look anything like
    the picture of the guy.
    
    Lee

    Turns out the woman who made the id over the phone wasn't the teller
    who was robbed.  It was the manager calling because she was told
    someone looked like him.  I can't believe they didn't try to look
    at the getaway car looked closer at the guy.  Well, maybe I can...

    
    They played the dispatch tape on the news last night and it was quite
    obvious that the caller was unsure of the identification.  Her
    conversation was interspersed with comments like "Well, I'm not
    completely sure...", etc.  At the very least the police overreacted.
    
    glenn
    

	This morning on the news I heard the dispatcher tapes of the Wellesley/
Dee Brown incident. To me its really sad how the whole incident got blown
out of proportion as it went down the communication chain. Here's what 
happened as I heard it this morning: (All quotes are from my memory of the
tapes. I looked for transcripts in the paper, but there are none)

	1) A bankl clerk, who witnessed the robbery, saw Dee Brown and his
fiancee leave the Post Office. I'm pretty sure the clerk was in the bank at
the time, looking out a window and across the street. The clerk reported to
the Bank Manager that someone who looks like the robber is in front of the
Post Office. None of that is on the tape of course, so we don't know exactly
what the clerk said to the manager. NOTE: The manager was NOT a witness to the
robbery.

	2) Manager calls police, reports "Somebody who strangely looks like
the robber is in front of the post office".

	3) Police dispatcher over police radio, "suspect in front of post
office. We have two positive identifications by eyewitnesses"


	What a fiasco!!! How does the dispatcher go from 'stangely looks like'
to 'positive id'??????  

	BTW, Wellesley seems to think these tapes vindicates their police
officers! Not in my book, it only incrimnates the dispatcher. I still haven't
heard anything about the police running any kind of check of the vehicle
before rushing it with 7 cops!!!

	Oh, one last thing I heard on the tape. They had the bank manager
on the phone the whole time (Another thing, why was the real witness talking
to the police???), and when the police arrived she screamed, "Oh my god, they've
drawn their guns!!!!"

JimH

    Gentlemen,
    
    PU-LEEZE keep in mind that Midnight has NO, as in zeroid, credibility
    on racial issues.  The other day over in another note he up and spouted
    that Kermit Washington's face crush smash permament disability job on
    Rudy Tomjonavich ended in his losing a civil lawsuit cuz a a "racist
    plot" against poor self-defending Kermit of face-smash infame, no doubt
    this plot having been coordinated direct from the master control panel
    in the bomb shelter over at White Power HQ.
    
    As Colman McCarthy, Tony Brown, and other African-American writers
    who have the maturity and credibility that poor Midnight so sorely
    lacks have pointed out, this "victim syndrome" thing we see with all
    the crying wolf Tawana Brawley-style from the George Brooks and
    Reverend Al Sharptons of the world only hurts Africans in the long
    run.
    
    CEASE AND DESIST, George, or I'll turn you in to the NoI to a
    paraphrased remake of that old fifties tune the Wanderer, but this
    time called the Squanderer!!
    
    MrT 

    re:  Tawana Brawley
    
    My sister was unfortunate enough to be a member of the Grand Jury which
    eventually (several months) concluded that the whole thing was a hoax. 
    Al Sharpton is a money and publicity-hungry slimeball.
    
    Hawk

    
    What does all this have to do with Midnight or Tawana Brawley?  No
    one's claiming this Dee Brown thing was a hoax or a role-reversal
    thing...
    
    Sheesh, T, you've made your unsolicited point regarding Kermit
    Washington in the Dee Brown note twice now.  If you feel that strongly
    about it, why don't you start a Midnight-as-Al-Sharpton note so us less
    observant noters won't get so confused?
    
    glenn
    

    >Al Sharpton is a money and publicity-hungry slimball.
    
    Now remember, I ain't saying that Midnight is out for the dough.
    And for that matter, I ain't gonna slur him by calling him the
    boy who cries wolf.  I'm just saying that he's manipulated this 
    note for his own perverted political agenda and that this ain't
    Soapbox and that he's the MAN who cries wolf.
    
    Doc, you should be ashamed of yourself what you're doing in here.
    I'm hip to it and it's just plain wrong.
    
    MrT

    Gimme a break, can we go back to the Brown issue and leave Doc,
    Tawana, Don King, Wade Boggs, John Elway, Doug Flutie, George
    Bush, Dean Smith, Bobby Knight, the Jihad (tm), pee-pee smoochers,
    Greg Swindell, Bernice Kosar, apple pie, Ralph Caso, Al Sharpton,
    Howard Stern, Elvis and Wendy Jo Sperber out of this?

    Now...
    
    I agree with Mac.  If they want to question Brown, I'm sure if
    they came up to him with a gun and persuaded him out of the car,
    frisked him and found he had no gun on him, there would be no
    need to have him on the ground for 20 minutes.  The description
    of the robber and Dee Brown are miles apart.  They ask for an alibi,
    they could even escort him to the bank for crying out loud.  But
    the translation of the conversation from "it could be him" to
    "2 definited confirmations" is a crock.  I wouldn't want to go
    through that kind of crap.  It's wrong in general.  The police
    did their job, but there's no excuse for handling it the way they
    did.
    
    -Walt

    Walt, you forgot "pistol packing pygmies"......
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    Hawk

    Sorry Hawk, must have next unseen'ed through that one....

    The police were to told "Two positive I.D.'s"!!!!!!!! They only did
    what they thought was right!!If you were a cop and told that there was
    a positive i.d. on someone that just robbed a bank and they were at
    such and such place, How would you handle it???? If the police were
    told that someone only resembled that person, I feel they would have
    handled it in a better fashion, but it's all water under the bridge now
    and a mistake was made and a bad one, but I feel that the dispatcher
    should be held accountable for what happened. Going by what I read in
    here.   
    
    Just my .02!!!!                                      M.J.

    Just to ad my .02 cents worth, I listened to the tape and the woman
    who called stated twice that she was not positive.  The way the officer
    who answered the phone sounded, it lead me to believe that he was
    trying to get the woman to say yes.

    Geez, how many cops do you need to just have a suspect up against
    a car, rather than lying on the ground?  Have the Wellesley cops
    seen too many Dirty Harry movies?
    
    I can't put myself in his position, but if I sinply stare at a clock
    for 20 mintues it sure seems like a day has gone by.  And, when
    there are armed men standing over you, it must seem even longer.
    
    Not having heard the tapes, I can't comment on how they approached
    Mr. Brown.  But, what they did after he was out of the car certainly
    seems excessive.  

    If this is not standard procedure for their department, then they
    should be strongly reprimanded.  If it is, then it should certainly
    be carefully reviewed.
    
    And, if what I've read in hear is fact, then I agree that the
    dispatcher is to blame.
    
    I know that an apology isn't enough, but what else can be done?
    For the future, policy changes and training are in order.  But,
    for Dee Brown, what do noters suggest?
    
    Lee

 My idea is this Lee, they humilated and scared the shit out Dee, an
 apology isn't enough. Suspension would be nice so maybe they'll think
 twice the next time. What I'd really like to see is some type of
 public humilation for them too. Like maybe make them stand nake for
 20 minutes while Lisa Olson interviews them and Dee whips them with a
 bullwhip...

 mike

    Why don't you guys take this crap to Soapbox or Blacknotes?  This
    is not even remotely sports-related as a subject.  Leave all the
    crying wolf and liberal self-flagellation outta this file, we're
    here to talk sports not this tired crap.
    
    MrT

    RE:-1 I argee
    
    I'd much rather have MrT doing a LDUC on why someone stole his idea !
    
    Edwin

    
    > Why don't you guys take this crap to Soapbox or Blacknotes?  This
    > is not even remotely sports-related as a subject.  Leave all the
    > crying wolf and liberal self-flagellation outta this file, we're
    > here to talk sports not this tired crap.
    
    You mean so we can talk sports-related issues like the number of 
    outhouses in North Carolina?
    
    glenn

    I would hope the typical C's fan would make sure Dee gets a warm
    reception at his first game and make him feel welcome.  It should
    be interesting to see what his, Lewis' and Shaw's reaction will
    turn out to be...
    
    
    In something related, but different.  The Sox are struggling and
    Quintana's been hurt.  Listening to Sox management, they think
    their next big star in Mo Vaughn.  If so, why isn't he on the
    bench at least pinch hitting if not playing?  Is it arbitration
    related (don't give him extra time in major league seniority
    so he can't arbitrate as quickly?)  If so, why were guys like
    Plantier and Naehring called up during the year.  Or is this
    another one of those "Boston area" type attitudes that I would
    prefer not to spell out, but I'm sure you know what I mean.
    Is Ellis enough that they don't need to add Vaughn?
    
    -Walt

    
    Walt, Gorman doesn't want to risk losing Vaughn the way he lost
    Reggie Harris. I guess if fro some reason they bring him up he
    has to be on next years roster or something to that effect. Morgan
    has stated that he wants Vaughn up more than once, I think Lou is
    just afraid he'll lose his budding star.
    
    
    
    
    Steve

    Walt, while you can assimilate (holy shit, did I just say that?!) the
    Lewis and Shaw thing, this Dee Brown incident is planets apart from
    them.  I've perceived Dee Brown as a "breath of fresh air" coming into
    the C's organization, from the fans' perspective, that is.  This
    unpopular incident can only increase Dee's popularity in the Jihadhood. 
    On the other hand, I'd expect Lewis and Shaw to get reamed by the
    faithful, as well they should, IMO.  They would have to prove their
    superstardom to regain my favor, and I'm not even a die-hard Celtic
    fan, just a follower.  And, I don't expect anything more than mediocre
    basketball from both, maybe a little more from Lewis......
    
    A noter earlier mentioned that he wrote Dee a letter.  I had that very
    same thought before I read that, and I'm still going to do it.  I've
    never done this sort of thing before for a professional......
    
    Hawk 

    re .59, .60:
                                                 
    I thought I heard/read somewhere that Vaughn is not subject to being
    taken in this year's minor league draft (the way the A's got Reggie
    Harris), because he has less than three years of minor league
    experience.
    
    If that's true, then there was no good reason for the Sox not to call
    Vaughn up, especially when there's a shortage of good LH bats on the
    Sox bench.  
    
    
    py                        
    

    (Sigh - read Sox notes, guys...)
    
    Vaughn has less than 3 years of minor league experience, so he doesn't
    have to be protected...  UNLESS he gets called up - then he has to be.
    
    ML

    T., try the Next Unseen key, something which I've been using a lot
    because of "certain" noters.
    
    Lee

 Hawk,  the minute Shaw hits a few buckets or makes a great play all will
 be forgotten. As far as Reggie goes what did he ever do that was wrong?
 He said that he play 100% for the season after that whatever happened
 happened. I don't recall him ever saying he wouldn't sign with the C'S
 or wanted out. It's the writers that read all of those things into his
 statement. And I think anyone who opens their eyes and looks at the total
 picture can see that management hoodwinked Shaw and then dragged him across
 the coals for it....

 If I boo anybody it'll be Bird for taking too many shots....

 mike

    
    Both Lewis and Shaw were forced to take low salaries in their rookie
    years in deference to the salary cap, something many forget in their
    condemnations of both players and their agents.
    
    glenn
    

    Re Shaw/Lewis/Brown:  I know how fans are and guys are bums unless
    the perform on the court.  I would HOPE that people realize that
    Brown was a victim and if he decided to sue someone or take some
    kind of action, it wouldn't be taken the wrong way by the average 
    fan.  I would think he deserves their support.  Shaw and Lewis
    are different cases, but they all are on the same team and things
    happened in the off-season.  That's why I lumped them together.
    
    As far as Vaughn goes, I heard he wouldn't have to be protected to.
    Are there guys out there they need to protect more than Vaughn?
    And aren't they worried about winning this year?  They don't have
    40 guys called up now, do they?   I can't believe that they think
    giving up prospects for Andersen is worth it for the pennant drive,
    but calling up Vaughn isn't.  You'd have to convince me Andersen
    is going to be that much more valuable to the team.  Unless there's
    other factors we don't know about or want to discuss....

    Your probably right about the way I view the Shaw and Lewis deals.  I
    haven't dug any deeper and just going by what's generally been going
    around (ie. media).
    
    I think Dee will draw geniune sympathy from the average fan, even if he
    does choose some kind of action.  If the fans and/or New Englanders
    decide to condemn him if he takes action, then NE's so-called racist
    rep won't be so-called anymore......
    
    Hawk

    Dee will get the biggest cheers next to LB the first exhibition game.
    The public will be COMPLETELY on his side.
    
    Lewis will receive a warm welcome as well - a few boos will be heard,
    but mostly cheers.
    
    Shaw will be booed out of Worcester, and, likely, the Gahden, but after
    a few good road performances and a feature article by Ryan, all will be
    forgotten, and we'll get on with the business of winning a championship
    by December.
    
    Mo Vaughn, for the last time, does NOT need to be protected on the
    40-man roster if he DOESN'T get called up, but DOES need to be
    protected if he DOES get called up.
    
    And, of course the Sox are buffoons for not calling him up.  But I
    believe this is more symptomatic of Lou Gorman's complete bungling of
    his job than it is racism.  I'm not denying that the Sox organization
    is racist, mind you, I think it is - starting at Yawkee's door...
    But, Lou was so embarrassed by the Reggie Harris affair, that he's
    probably going to protect the batboy on that list!   
    
    Yet another reason why I've become a fan of MY (fantasy league) team(s)
    more than a blind Red Sox fan...  I may not win, but I'm at least
    willing to make the moves that I think will make me win, instead of
    sitting back, refusing to "mortgage the future" to win this year. 
    Don't get me started on LooGoogoo Gorman...
    
    ML

    
    Cops or players...
    
    	What does it matter to you,if you've got a JOB to do, you got to do
    it well!
    
    B.A..02

    >T., try the Next Unseen key, something which I've been usding a lot
    >because of "certain" noters.
    
    No way, Lee.  After enduring 2 1/2 years of censorious crapulous 
    obtrusions of this sort from you and others, on sports-related issues
    no less!, I shan't let this opportunity to turn the tables slip through
    my fingers.
    
    >outhouses in Carolina.
    
    Wasn't no 80 note topic on that, just a couple of phrases in a_otherwise
    sports-related text.  Big difference.  No hypocrisy here, just bleeding
    hearts and unapologetic right wingers from what I cain see.
    
    Whatever the case, notes get shut down all the time for being wholly
    inappropriate for SPORTS, why not this one? 
    
    Let's censor this irrelevant topic!
    
    MrT                                

    >Let's censor this irrelevant topic!
    >
    >MrT                                


	Yes, that's right. Let's concentrate on more sports related topics,
like "Did Mr. T *really* say Pennsylvania had an Atlantic coast or not???"

JimH