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Conference foundr::firearms

Title:God made man, but Sam Colt made men equal
Notice:Welcome to the firearms conference!
Moderator:PEAKS::OAKEYIN
Created:Tue Mar 04 1986
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:6616
Total number of notes:49869

6610.0. "MASS - Criminal Justice Hearing " by NETCAD::MCGRATH () Thu May 15 1997 17:10

    Report: Mass Joint Committee on Criminal Justice Hearing, May 14, 1997 
    
    I attended the committee hearing from 1:00 to 3:30 PM, so this is
    really only a partial report.  If anyone stayed longer, or had a
    different opinion of what transpired, please reply with your comments.
    
    I didn't keep track of all the speakers, but I did keep track of the
    the number of anti-gun vs pro-gun people giving testimony during 2.5
    hrs I was there.  In the first 2 hrs there were 6 anti's and 1 pro-gun
    speaker, all of which were legislators or other officials that were
    taken out of turn, ahead of the commoners...  In the final .5 hrs
    1 pro-gun rep spoke, 1 ATF agent testified, and Mike Yacino of GOAL
    began to speak.  So, in the 2.5 hrs I was there the ratio was 6:2
    and 1 neutral (ATF), not counting Mike Y. because he had just started.
     
    The hearing was to be held in room 1b, but due to the sizeable crowd,
    it was moved to Gardner Auditorium. 
    
    House Chair A. Stephen Tobin open the hearings along with Senate Chair
    Marian Walsh.  
    
    The first to testify was Sen. Cheryl Jacques.  She basically sounded
    like Shara Brady and used the term "massively destructive assault 
    weapons" on numerous ocassions.  This seemed to be the new buzz word
    used by the anti crowd.  She is the sponsor of S.148 the Mass Assault
    Weapon Ban.  She used bad stats and pointed to serveral incidents that
    took place around the state that involved firearms, some of which did
    not involve the firearms she wants to ban.
    
    Rep. Tobin questioned her on serveral points and challenged her stats
    as to how often/common these "assault weapon" were.  He claimed that
    the stats he had seen said that these weapons were in fact seldom use
    by criminals.  He asked Jacques if she could provide him with the 
    stats had and she agreed to supply them (later).
    
    Attorney Genral Scot Harshbarger, Sen Dianne Wilkerson and some other
    rep all spoke in favor of S.148.  Again claiming Police support, high
    use of these in crime and all the other falsehoods we have come to 
    know and (not) love...  Harshbarger also pushed "safe storage/trigger
    lock" and spoke on how he plans to ban "saturday night specials" with
    consumer protection laws.
    
    Rep Guach (I think it was Guach) spoke against S.148 as did one other
    Rep. Both did a good job...  Stressing criminals should be held 
    accountable for there actions, as oppose to banning a class of firearms.
     
    Lt. Gov Paul Cellucci testified on the Governors Anti-gun bill H.4309
    which includes, but is not limited to, a semiauto ban, 1 gun a month
    and an ammo ban.
    
    The ATF agent was a big surprise.  He basically blew a hole, a big
    hole, in all the stats that the anti's were claiming as far as assault
    weapons being found on the streets.  He also did a good job in
    describing the differences between a "REAL" assualt weapon (scientific
    descritpion) and the law's description which pertains to semiauto
    firearms that have a certain number of features, which make it into
    a (non-scientific) assault weapon.  I could see some of the anti's on
    the committee skirming when he told them that these types of firearm
    are seldom used in crime.  In almost 10 yrs with nearly 20K guns
    seized or recovered, including guns not used in any crime, the number
    of assault weapons was around 12, out of ~20K guns.  He further stated
    that of the 12, some were not even used in a crime, and at least one 
    was a suicide.
    
    Overall impressions:
    
    Rep Tobin (House Chair) asked a lot of good questions and seemed to
    be using many of the pro-gun arguements.  He basically wanted the
    anti's to supply proof when they made there claims.  He didn't seem 
    to buy into much of what they were claiming.
    
    Sen Walsh (Sen. Chair), also aske many good questions.  She kept
    stressing that the anti's said this wouldn't effect hunters/sportsmen
    while sportsmen said that they would be effected.  She want to know
    more technical details, which the ATF agent provided.  Although she
    voted previously for the assault weapon ban, she seem to have a problem
    with the totally different stories/facts from each side.  She seemed 
    to have an open mind and could possibly be swayed to oppose the AW ban.
    
    Rep John Slattery, who is on the committee, is anti all the way, a lost
    cause.
    
    TV cameras, from local ch5 and ch7 were there.  They got a lot of the
    anti stuff on tape, especially Jacques, Harshbarger, Wilkerson,
    the Lt Gov and taped some of Rep. Gauch. Ch5 left early after the big
    names testified.  Ch7 stayed and taped the ATF agent from behind (he
    asked that no pictures of his face be taken) and they were taping
    Mike Y (GOAL) when I left.
    
    What to do:
    
    Send letters to Rep A.Paul Tobin and Sen Marian Walsh, as well as
    you state Rep and Senator.  Ask the committee members to report,
    the Bills that ban firearm or ammo, as "aught not to pass" and 
    inform your Rep and Senator that you oppose these bills.
    
    You could also tell the Chairs of the Crimminal Justice Committee, that
    you support GOAL's position on all the bills before the committee.
    There are a bunch of bills.  Some are good and supported by GOAL
    and some bad which are opposed by GOAL.  Here are a few of the BAD
    ones, but there are planty more...
    
                                                          GOAL Position
                                                   
       S.148  An Act Relative to Assault Weapons             Opposed
        
       S.190 An Act Relative to Safe Storage of Firearms     Opposed
       
       H.257 An Act Relative to Assault Weapons and High     Opposed
             Damage Ammunition
       H.248 An Act Prohibiting the Possession od Armor      Opposed
             Piercing Ammunition
       H.4309 An Act Relative to Reducing Crime Committed
              with the illegal use of guns - Weld's AW ban   Opposed
    
    
    Send Letters to:
    
       Honorable A. Paul Tobin            Honorable Marian Walsh
       Criminal Justice House Chairman    Criminal Justice Senate Chairwoman 
       State House                        State House
       Boston, MA 02133                   Boston, MA 02133
    
    Regards,
    Roger
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
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6610.1Last YearNETCAD::MCGRATHThu May 15 1997 17:2216
    One thing to remember about the Mass AW Ban.  It passed in the House
    and the Senate last year.  The ONLY reason that it died is due to
    differences between the versions that House and Senate passed.
    
    These differences needed to be worked out by an appointed committee.
    The committee would determine the final version which would be voted
    on again.  Since this all took place right before the end of the
    legislative year, the pro-gun committee members were able to hold-up
    the bill until time ran out.   The Governor would have signed it if
    it had reached his desk.   
    
    The situation is probably worst this year, and we need to kill it
    before it gets to the floor of the house/senate.  
    
    Roger
    
6610.2I testified 2nd after YacinoNNTPD::"kincaid@hpn.lkg.dec.com"Bart KincaidFri May 16 1997 19:10288
You asked if anyone had stayed longer. I stayed long enough to testify
after Mike Yacino and a competitive shooter from Worcester that uses some
of the weapons that would be banned for competition.

I wish I had a list of each of the members that were actually there, because
I'd like to call/write and thank a few of them. When I began testifying I was
a little nervous because I was new to it, but once I got going I got emotional
(you'll see why from my included testimony at the end of this post) and I 
started looking Rep. Slattery right in the eyes. I was definitely making him
squirm and before I had gotten very far he just sat back and looked down into
his lap. He didn't even have the nerve to look me in the eye when I was done!
I wanted to say to him, "You ought to look down, you ought to feel totally
ashamed of youreslf!", but I didn't I was just too torn up remembering what
had happened recently.  At anyrate, here's my testimony:

(Oh, yeah, unlike Jacques and that crowd, I have complete cites for all of my
statistics!)

Bart

---------------

Thank you for letting me speak with you today.

First a little back ground information.

Courts have consistently ruled that the police _do_not_ have an obligation to 
protect individuals, only the public in general.  For example, in Warren v. 
District of Columbia, the D.C. Appellate court stated "courts have without 
exception concluded that when a municipality or other governmental entity 
undertakes to furnish police services, it assumes a duty only to the public at

large and not to individual members of the community." i              
 
Former Florida Attorney General Jim Smith told Florida legislators that police

responded to only about 200,000 of 700,000 calls for help to Dade County 
authorities.  Smith was asked why so many citizens in Dade County were buying 
guns and he said, "They damn well better, they've got to protect
themselves."ii 

The Department of Justice found that in 1989, there were 168,881 crimes of 
violence which were not responded to by police within 1 hour.iii 

Those are interesting facts and statistics, but they are more than that to me 
and my wife.  On the evening of March 20th of this year, my wife, my
everything, 
almost _became_ one of those statistics. Let me tell you what happened:

We have property in the city of Worcester and on that particular evening, we 
went to Worcester to take care of some things at the apartments. Since I
didn't 
want to block any of the tenants by parking in the driveway, I parked in the
lot 
across the street. We know the owner of that lot so that was OK. I went into
our 
building and my wife waited in the truck because I was only going to be gone a

few minutes. Well, for a number of reasons, I took longer than expected. In
the 
meantime, let me tell you what my wife, Amy was being subjected to. 

Some, Low-life, excuse me, "societally-challenged" individual came up to the 
truck, demanded that she open the door (which she didn't do of course), and 
demanded $500! At first she ignored him and continued studying for school. He 
started yelling and cursing at her, demanding access and $500 while leaning
and 
pushing on her door and other parts of the truck! Fortunately the doors were 
locked, my fault, force of habit, I had gotten out, taken the keys and locked 
the driver's side door. 

As if this isn't bad enough, what happened next is what has outraged me and
why 
I'm here today.

She told the guy that she had a cellular phone and was calling the cops. Now, 
Like I said, she had a cellular phone and knowing that emergency calls on a 
cellular phone are routed through the State Police, she called information and

got a direct connection to the Worcester Police department. When the officer 
answered, she told him where she was and the situation and explained that it
was 
rapidly deteriorating. His reply, "Is this an emergency? It sounds like an 
emergency, you have to call 911." Amy said, "OK." And Click! HE HUNG UP! 
So, Amy dialed 911, which on a cellular is like dialing *SP and you get the MA

State Police. She gave the information again and said that he is now
threatening 
her. At this point he was saying things like "I bet you wish I was dead.
You're 
gonna wish I was dead when I get to you." The response from the emergency 
number, "I'll patch you through to Worcester." WHAT?!? After what I'm certain 
seemed like an eternity, Worcester 911 finally came on and when Amy tried to 
tell them the information, she was interrupted with, "Can you hold? Can you 
hold?" CLICK! SHE WAS PUT ON HOLD WITH A LOW-LIFE PUSHING ON HER DOOR, 
THREATENING HER AND DEMANDING $500!!! 

When we had left the house to go to Worcester, I had tucked my 40 caliber
pistol 
into my belt, but Amy didn't take hers. When we talked about this later, she 
told me that thoughts of 'paranoid' would have been her response if I had 
mentioned it, but never again! At any rate, she didn't have any means of 
self-defense, she was alone, in a parking lot, being threatened and the police

emergency line had just put her on hold. Fortunately, I came out of the 
building. All I could think and yell was "Get away from my wife!" and that 
low-life "beat feet" out of there. 

Since we were unharmed and the police seemed to have other things to do, we 
didn't file a report.

Now, If this had been a politically correct movie of the week with an agenda, 
the police would have arrived in the nick of time and the guy would have been 
caught. But it wasn't. It was the real world, where there are about 150,000 
police officers on duty at any one time to protect a population of more than
250 
million Americans -- or around 1,700 citizens per officer.iv Where the police 
aren't responsible for protecting private citizens and dialing 911 will get
you 
put on hold for a potentially life-threatening situation! 
 
Who knows what would have happened if I had taken longer inside? 
I don't know. I don't want to know. But I do know one thing. We will exersize 
our rights to carry for self-defense from now on, especially in the city. 

Like 98% of the uses of a firearm in self-defense, the gun was never drawn and

no shots were fired. 

Was my wife in danger? 
I think so, even if the police didn't have time for her.

Could she have made the low-life leave sooner if she had been carrying her 
legally owned and licensed, polimer-framed, hi-capacity, semi-automatic .40
caliber pistol loaded with awful, dreaded Black Talon ammunition? 
Probably.  In fact, more than likely.

Did he leave when I became a factor? 
DAMN RIGHT HE DID! 

If I hadn't been there and the low-life decided to go the next violent step,  
could the police have saved my wife? 
Absolutely NOT! (I actually got emotional enough that I pounded my fist on the
podium as I gave this answer... oh well...) 

Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many
as 
2.5 million times every year.v Of those self-defense cases, more than 200,000 
are by women defending themselves against sexual abuse.vi Also, Handguns are
the 
weapon of choice for self-defense. Many of these self-defense handguns could
be 
labeled as "Saturday Night Specials" or "Junk Guns" that in reality are
low-cost 
safe and affordable protection for many people with proper training,
especially 
minorities and women, who don't have the financial capability to purchase more

expensive firearms, rely on.

Nationwide, a comprehensive study in 1996 determined that violent crime fell 
after states made it legal to carry concealed firearms.  The results of the 
study showed that States which passed concealed carry laws reduced their
murder 
rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%;vii and

additionally, If those states not having concealed carry laws had adopted such

laws in 1992, then approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated

assaults and 12,000 robberies would have been avoided yearly.viii 

60% of felons polled agreed that "a criminal is not going to mess around with
a 
victim he knows is armed with a gun."  And that "criminals are more worried 
about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."ix 

Let's not create a safer working environment for the criminals by telling them

their victims, the law-abiding citizens have been disarmed.

The Great Constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts states in part:

All people are born free and equal and have certain natural, essential and 
unalienable rights; among which may be reckoned  the _right_ of enjoying and 
_defending_their_lives_ and liberties; that of acquiring, possessing and 
_protecting_ property; that of seeking and _obtaining_ their safety and
happiness. 
People have a _right_to_keep_and_to_bear_arms_ for the common defense.  Laws
made 
to punish actions done before the existence of such laws, and which have not 
been declared crimes by preceding laws, are unjust, oppressive, and
inconsistent 
with the fundamental principles of a free government. 

I wish I could take credit for those words, but I can't. 
Important words with an important message. 

Having first hand experience, we urge and implore you to give unfavorable 
reports to House 457, House 458, House 2267, House 2632, House 3613, Senate
148 
and Senate 190. These misinformed and misguided bills do nothing to stop crime

or gun violence and as such they are best titled the "Victim Disarmament Acts
of 
1997." 

Alternatively, Please give a favorable report to Senate 1135, which would
create 
fair licensing for those who wish to exersize their right to own and carry a 
firearm. And Senate 195, which would increase penalties for _criminals_ who
misuse 
a firearm.

Please don't make us criminals by essentially outlawing our chosen means of 
self-defense.

Thank you.


------------

sources and cites:

i Warren v. District of Columbia, D.C. App., 444 A. 2d 1 (1981)

ii Statement of Representative Ron Johnson in U.S. Senate, "Handgun Violence
Prevention Act of 1987," Hearing before the Subcommittee on the Constitution
of
the Committee on the Judiciary (16 June 1987):33.

iii Bureau of Justice Statistics, Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics --
1990, (1991):257.

iv Kleck, Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America, (1991):111-116, 132.

v Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime:  The Prevalence and
Nature of Self-Defense With a Gun," 86 The Journal of Criminal Law and
Criminology, Northwestern University School of Law, 1 (Fall 1995):164.
Dr. Kleck is a professor in the school of criminology and criminal justice at
Florida State University in Tallahassee.  He has researched extensively and
published several essays on the gun control issue.  His book, Point Blank: 
Guns
and Violence in America, has become a widely cited source in the gun control
debate.  In fact, this book earned Dr. Kleck the prestigious American Society
of
Criminology Michael J. Hindelang award for 1993.  This award is given for the
book published in the past two to three years that makes the most outstanding
contribution to criminology.
Even those who don't like the conclusions Dr. Kleck reaches, cannot argue with
his impeccable research and methodology.  In "A Tribute to a View I Have
Opposed," Marvin E. Wolfgang writes that, "What troubles me is the article by
Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz.  The reason I am troubled is that they have
provided
an almost clear-cut case of methodologically sound research in support of
something I have theoretically opposed for years, namely, the use of a gun in
defense against a criminal perpetrator. . . . I have to admit my admiration
for
the care and caution expressed in this article and this research.  Can it be
true that about two million instances occur each year in which a gun was used
as
a defensive measure against crime?  It is hard to believe.  Yet, it is hard to
challenge the data collected.  We do not have contrary evidence."  Wolfgang,
"A
Tribute to a View I Have Opposed," The Journal of Criminal Law and
Criminology,
at 188.
Readers of Dr. Kleck's materials may be interested to know that he is a member
of the ACLU, Amnesty International USA, and Common Cause.  He is not and has
never been a member of or contributor to any advocacy group on either side of
the gun control debate.

vi Kleck and Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime," at 185.

vii One of the authors of the University of Chicago study reported on the 
study's findings in John R. Lott, Jr., "More Guns, Less Violent Crime," The
Wall 
Street Journal (28 August 1996).  See also supra note viii.

viii John R. Lott, Jr. and David B. Mustard, "Crime, Deterrence, and
Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns," University of Chicago, (13 July 1996).

ix U.S., Department of Justice, National Institute of Justice, "The Armed
Criminal in America:  A Survey of Incarcerated Felons," Research Report, (July
1985): 27.


[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]
6610.3FABSIX::J_SADINFreedom isn't free.Sun May 18 1997 11:225
    
    
    	excellent!
    
    
6610.4Here, here!OGOPW2::MICHAELSONMon May 19 1997 16:283
    I wish I was there to hear and see you...  Very Good Job!
    
    Don
6610.5ASIC::RANDOLPHTom R. N1OOQTue May 20 1997 12:053
Yes - bravo!
I hope a few dimwits in the Statehouse experienced a rare event - a thought
beyond their little career passing through their heads.