Conference 7.286::sports_91

    I'll start this off because I feel very strongly about this subject.
    
    Hunting should not be in the sports notesfile because it is not at
    sport !!!
    
    If deer and other animals could pack a gun and shoot it it would be
    a sport. There is nothing to do with sporting when on of the
    participants is much smarter than the other and carries a gun.
    
    Nebraska Marty

Hunting and fishing are fine sports. Talk to someone who hunts large game
with a bow and arrow and then tell me they're not sportsmen. 

Just as with other sports, there may be less than admirable people,
methods, etc., but to hunt within the laws/rules would fall into most
definitions of sports.

TTom

    
    Marty,
    
    Who says the one carrying the gun is always smarter than the other
    animal?

    I have just recently started deer and elk hunting. Although I have
    yet to fill a tag, I can only say one thing about it. It is a 
    great experience. 
    
    BoB 

Okay, I'll sort of put my moderator hat on here....

We had a hunting note in the old SPORTS notesfile, and now we have one
here.  

I don't hunt, save for trekking around in the woods with my Olympus OM-4T
and a zoom lens.  However, I don't have a problem with people who do,
as long as they do it safely -- especially since the area I live in is
filled with hunters right around my house!

I don't have a problem with this topic in here, but please, let's try
to keep the hunting/no_hunting ratholes to a minimum....

'Saw

    
    The pro-hunting/anti-hunting arguments are well covered in ::SOAPBOX.
    Anything posted here would be redundant.
    
    Anyway, what about shooting golf?  What's the point, since most people
    don't eat what they shoot?  And why do they say "Shoot some golf", when
    in actuality, people club 'em to death?
    
    Dickstah
    

    Hawk,
       I found that when tracking the Mighty Inground, the most
    effective weapons are the jacknife and the cannonball :^>
    
    Bull~
    

    
    The "is hunting really a sport" arguments are interesting.  Why is it
    that mostly the hunters don't want to hear them?  To say that they were
    covered in the old sports or another conference are stupid arguments. 
    I guess we don't need an NFL or Red Sox topic then.  I can understand
    starting another topic, but just because someone doesn't want to hear
    what some people have to say (and they are not junknoting) is a lousy
    reason to restrict the conversation in a note.
    
    Bruce

Can tell it's Friday again!

Actually, the worst combination of things related to hunting is alcohol
and firearms.  I've had many friends, good safe hunters, who see other
hunters sucking down beers, and/or brandy etc.

You know, to me a firearm is like electricity.  Treated with safety and
respect in mind, and it won't harm you.  Treated carelessly and you
can be in a world of hurt.  The difference between the two is that
a firearm can take someone else's life through *your* negligence....

Safety is of prime importance....

'Saw

    
    re:  .10  
    
    Bruce, I don't think anyone is trying to repress anyone's right to
    an opinion and the free expression thereof.
    
    There are games, sports, and pastimes all discussed in this file, and
    there are probably not two noters who would place each topic in the
    same categories.  Some "sports" are subjective.  Hunting is a sporting
    activity to some also.
    
    Dickstah
    

    re .1;
    
       Get in a pen with an 8-point buck and see how long you last. I'd
    say 30 seconds, at the most.
    
       Jim G.
    

    Well if you must hunt, at least don't join the NRA, America's most
    powerful and evil lobby.
    
    Dan

You know, I just got a free "I'm the NRA" card in the mail the 
other day with instuctions on the envelope that read "Open 
Immediately".

Guess they should've been a bit more specfic with those 
instuctions, I opened it width-wise instead of lengthwise :-)

dd

    
    Sheesh.........I shoulda wore my camouflage waders in to work
    today.  It's piling up in here.
    
    Hunting belongs in this notesfile just as much as the boxing,
    questions & answers, etc... notes.  Lighten up fellas..........
    
    Claybroon

    If the NBA qualifies as a bona fide sport then hunting certainly
    does.
    
    One aspeck I'd like to address, though, is a higly misleading
    defense hunters use to justify themselves, which is the claim that
    hunting game serves to "maintain" their populations by "harvesting"
    them in lieu of now-absent depredation by natural predators.  This
    argument centers primarily on big-game hunting, although many fowl
    species also fall under its scope.
    
    Natural predators, such a the timberwolf, which are now absent 
    except in places such as Minnesota and Montana, do NOT go out looking
    for 12 point bucks.  The depredation process entails seeking out and
    killing off the infirm, weak, and young.  Hunters kill of the strongest
    and healthiest.
    
    This being so, it follows that hunting has a_affect opposite of what
    we think of as (Darwinian) natural selection.  Some natural scientists
    now wonder if diseases cropping up among certain game animals aren't
    manifestations of this reverse-Darwinism.
    
    MrT

That's not quite the whole story, T; although you've unearthed a speck
of truth.

Some additional points:

1) Most hunters would not claim that they are necessary in order to
replace depredation by predators. 
Hunters do provide herd/flock control.
Lack of predators allows a herd to breed in excess of the ability of the
land to support it. Here in Colorado, severe winters can mean the death of
ENTIRE herds through starvation if the herd is too large.
2) Hunters do not necessarily always shoot trophy bulls/bucks, etc.
For one thing, it is harder than a non-hunter might suppose, and for 
another thing, seasons are set up in such a way that a
quota of females and yearlings can be killed also (and I think they
taste much better.... so you can keep your trophy bulls).
3) Revenue from hunters is practically the sole income available to
practice game management. This revenue is also used for a wide variety
of non-hunting related activities... including, but not limited to,
acquisition, preservation, and maintenance of wilderness lands and
wildlife (non-huntable) refuges, and the strengthening of many species
of non-hunted birds and animals.

Mike JN

    I know all that.  But the fack remains that hunters-as-predators
    is a dysfunctional model, and it's a model that the hunting crowd
    (of which I am a part, I bird hunt and used to bow and slug hunt
    deer) has been pushing for years.
    
    As for the revenues, they could and probably should be sourced 
    from general revenues, for sole reliance moneys taken from recreational 
    users is the wrong way to assure for the best maintenance of fauna as
    part of our overall ecosystem.  On the other hand, if general taxes
    supported game population maintenance then the Dan Schneiders of the
    world would be able to shut down the sport for misguided reasons.
    
    However you cut it, trophy hunting is a big part of the sport and
    it's reverse-Darwinism and that's no good.  The question is whether
    it's a significant problem or not.
    
    MrT(rophy)

    re: a few back
    
    I don't know all the facks in the New Hampshire case, but a friend of
    mine related this much:
    
    The victim was a child playing near his(/her?) own back yard. 
    Apparently teh hunter had wandered into the area and mistook the child
    for some sort of game.  The only thing I don't know is if alcohol
    was involved.  
    
    If you ask me this is a real tragedy that should have been avoided. 
    While  I personally deplore hunting, I particularly am enraged when
    flaming a!! holes get firearms into their hands and trapse through the 
    woods with an attitude.  (I of course realize that there are probably  
    responsible hunters out there.)
    
    =Bob=
    

                                         
    I'm certainly not anti-hunting, but has anyone kept abreast of this
    annual buffalo hunt that goes on in Montana?  Buffalo which seasonally 
    stray from the protected area of Yellowstone Park are fair game, under 
    certain constraints (males only, etc.).  Unless the article I read
    was intentionally misleading, the hunt is held not because the herd 
    requires thinning in the absence of a natural predator, but because 
    buffalo naturally contain a bacteria which is harmful to cattle.  And 
    of course, T's concerns about the natural selection process in reverse 
    probably also holds true here, because the animals which roam in 
    periods of limited water and food supplies may very well be the
    healthiest and most agressive.
    
    Now because this herd is made up of the only free-roaming natural-habitat 
    buffalo in America, I find it hard to justify killing them for no other
    reason than to protect our cattle in what amounts to a relatively small
    area of land (Yellowstone plus some surrounding territory which the
    buffalo only seasonally occupy).  The animal has already been completely
    eradicated from 99.99% of its natural habitat.  Can't the one last
    natural refuge be allowed to serve as exactly that?
    
    glenn
       

    
    re .22
    
    C'mon Glen, it takes a real sportsman to kill a cow.  Dangerous
    cowpies, and all.
    

    There is a huge political debate looming in the northern Rockies
    over the USFS' planned reintroduction of the grey (or timber) wolf
    into Yellowstone.  The reintroduction was planned largely based on
    the success the USFS attained with the reintro in Minneosta, where
    1,800 wolves coexist with cattle and other livestock by way of a
    reimbursement program for ranchers/farmers who lose livestock to 
    wolf-kills.
    
    The USFS had figured that the reimbursement would work similarly
    in the upper Rockies.  But the hunting lobby has come out of the
    closet as a_ally to the ranching lobby, and they simply do not want
    ANY wolves transplanted from Minnesota or Alaska at all.  In fack,
    they're lobbying right now to have the timberwolf redesignated from
    endangered to threatened, which would allow them to be trapped or shot
    outside of the National Park - even on federal land that is leased 
    very cheaply at tax-subsidized rates by the ranchers.
    
    Simple solution: Throw the tax-mooch ranchers off the leased land,
    which is net-net costing the taxpayers big-time as it is and also is
    damaging these range lands; give the reclaimed range lands over to the
    wolves and other endangered species, and let the ranchers kill them
    only on land they own.
    
    Believe me, for all the environmental and financial cost of having
    these tax-mooch ranchers chew up our high ranges we could engender 
    these species and enhance the prospects for hunting on fed'l lands
    that aren't part of the National Park system.
    
    MrT

   Whoa!

   Claywad just stopped by and said `take a look at this squid'.

   He had a photo album of dudes in the hunting Notesfile with their game.  

   And there was Lufay (and his dad Arch). Always knew there gots to be
   somethin good about a guy that hunts. 

   Nice looking Bambi there Mark!

   Mike JN

    
    	Did I say "Squid"?  I meant dork!  Sorry...........;^)
    
    	Claybroon

    I'm working 12-9 this week so's I'm afforded the privilege of catching
    some of the AM talk shows.
    
    This morning Jesse Rafael had on Ted Nuggent (sp) who's apparently into
    hunting and recently filmed a video showing him bow and arrowing
    something or other from the animal kingdom.  They also had some female
    hunters on [one of 'em was an ex-Dallas C-boy's cheerleader :^)] to
    effectively explain why they enjoy brutally slaughtering Bambi and all
    his offspring.
    
    Great stuff.  At one point Jesse asked one of the woman hunters to
    explain to her why she enjoys hunting, 'cause it's something I (Jesse)
    just don't understand'.  When the woman gave a fairly reasonable answer
    she was soundly booed by the audience, then shouted down by the animal
    rights activists.  (At which point the crowd broke into spontaneous
    applause!)
    
    Only in America, folks!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    re: -1
    
    Ted Nugent has been a bowhunter for quite sometime.  He learned how
    to hunt from some famous bowhunter whose name escapes me right now.
    Nugent wrote a song about his bow hunting with his friend mentioned
    above.  The video got all of the animal activists up in arms.
    
    Ted also has his own bow hunting gear.  It goes under the name of
    WHACKEM.
    
    \pjb

    Thanks, Mike JN.
    
    I've still got quite a ways to go before I have as many wall-hangers as
    the ol' man.  Did Claybroon pollute the photo album with a picture of
    his 28 pound doe?
    
    Mark.

>   Claywad just stopped by and said `take a look at this, squid'.
    							 |
    Hey Mike, you forgot an all-important comma----------+
    
    Mark.

When I used to work up in Enfield, one of the Field Service guys, who 
regularly worked up there, used to hunt quite a bit.   One year, he tagged
a really small buck (the buck was legal, it was just small), and ever after
people would perpetually kid him about it.

Their favorite line was that he shot a dog, and tied two sticks to its
head before he mounted on the car to come home...

I *KNOW* it wasn't Claywad, but I'll bet it was his cousin ;^)


'Saw

               -< The difference between Fly and Bait fishermen >-

Fly Fisherman                           Bait Fisherman

Have names like Roger, Doug and Jon     Have names like Junior, Bubba and Al
Own at least 5 good wool suits          Own at least 5 black T-shirts with
                                        beer motif
Volvo, BMW, Jeep Cherokee               '65 Bel Air, '71 LTD, '67 Ford F-250
Floss after brushing                    No teeth to speak of
Yuppies                                 Mechanics
Corona, Heineken & St Pauli Girl        Miller 16oz Cans
Jog                                     Smoke Pall Malls
Orvis, Winston, Hardy                   Zebco, Eagle Claw, Shakespeare
Talk about fishing experience           Talk about sexual experience
Catch and release                       Beat carp to death with a baseball bat
Cheese and bread: streamside lunch      Cheese and bread: Bait

================================================================================


    Five of the worst ways to ask for fishing information:

    1) "What do you hicks use to catch rainbows around these parts?"

    2) "Excuse me, but you smell like you know where the fish might be."

    3) "Me from big city back east. New York! Want to catch fish. You'um
        know where?"

    4) "I'll give you all a ride in my new Volvo if you tell me where the
        fish are!"


    5) You won't get to number five.
================================================================================

                                -< FISHionary >-

            *** The Official Fly Fishermans Dictionary ***


    ACTION - What you don't get after fishing all day with your new $700
             fly fishing outfit.

    ATTRACTOR - A fly that attracts so much attention it scares the bejesus
                out of the trout.

    BACKING - As in Financial backing, which is what you need to get into
              fly fishing.

    BANK - Where you go to get financial backing to begin fly fishing.

    BAR - Where you go after losing 35 flys in an hour.

    BARB - A woman you dated in college that you were thinking of when you
           missed the upmteenth strike of the day.

    BASS - Trash fish sought by guys in floating Pontiac Firebirds.

    BASSHOLES - Guys who fish for bass.

    CAST - What you wear on any limb after slipping on slimy rocks at the
           bottom of a stream.

    CREEL - An EMPTY wicker basket.

    CUTTHROAT TROUT - Aren't they all?

    DEER HAIR - Fly tying material available from a deer barber.

    DENSITY - The average intelligence of bait fishermen.

    DRAG - How they find drowned fishermen.

    DRAG FREE DRIFT - A stream where ther are no transvestites present.

    DREDGING - See TROLLING.

    DRESS - What the transvestites wear at streamside.

    DRY FLY - Theoretical concept not yet perfected, like the Strategic
              Defense Initiative.

    EMERGER - A fly fisherman after a fall.

    FINGERLING - A fully grown brook trout.

    FLOATANT - Lead in a liquid state.

    FLY - An inaccessible vent in your trousers, covered by several layers of
          clothing and chest waders, that you can't get to in time.

    FLY TYING - Number one hobby in mental health facilities.

    HACKLE - More expensive than sable per square inch.

    HOOK - Sales pitch expression used in conjunction with the words "line"
           and "sinker" by high priced fly fishing outfitters after selling
           a piece of graphite for $500.

    KNOTLESS - State of fly fishing nirvana

    LEECH - Friend who borrows flys and never replaces them.

    LINE -  Exagerated number of fish caught when relating fishing trips
            to friends, as in "giving them a line".

    MANIPULATE - Purpose of fly fishing advertising.

    MINNOW - See FINGERLING.

    NET - What you're ready for after you've tried to tie flys.

    POCKET WATER - The level to which the water reaches when you step in
                   a hole while wearing you hip boots.

    POLTERGEIST - See TROUT.

    POUND TEST - The amount of effort you have to put into deliberately
                 busting off a fly.

    PRESENTATION - Formerly known as a good cast.

    PUMPING THE TROUT - A Fly Fisherman's only exercise.

    REEL - What you do when you see how much you've spent of equipment.

    RISER - Optical illusion, like an oasis.

    SELECTIVE - Not hungry.

    SPOOK - What happens to the trout the second you get in the water.

    STEELHEAD - Great white whale.

    STRIPPING - Too obvious a joke.

    STUDS - Another one that's too obvious.

    TAILWATER - What you slip and land on your tail in.

    TAPER - A broken rod that has been repaired with duct tape.

    TREBLE HOOK - A hook that causes you to send out high frequency sounds
                  when you catch it in the back of your ear.

    TROLLING - See DREDGING.

    TROUT - See POLTERGEIST.

    TWITCH - A nervous disorder brought on by excessive fly and leader tying.

    WATER - Where trout alledgedly hang out.

>    I've still got quite a ways to go before I have as many wall-hangers as
>    the ol' man.  Did Claybroon grace the photo album with a picture of
>    his 128 pound doe?
    
>    Dork.

	Why yes, I did indeed put that beauty of a picture in the album.
	I also put a pic of Brandy and I in there that will probably be
	snatched up by Sports Afield to be put on their cover in October.
	I can see the caption now, "Duck hunting at it's finest!  You
	too can learn Clay's secrets!."  

	I think I do have some kinfolk up in Connecticut 'Saw.  They changed
	their name to Way to distinguish themselves from the southern
	Wades.  Is that you cuz?  How's your banjo playing coming along? 8*)

Claybroon

    Nice edit job, Claybroon.
    
    Mark.

    Congrats to Clay and the missus on a job well done!
    
From:	GENRAL::WADE         "Clay T. Wade, DTN 522-3920" 12-JUN-1991 11:33:33.42
To:	CARROL::LEFEBVRE
CC:	WADE
Subj:	It's a boy!


Homeboy,

	Caleb Thomas Wade entered this world at 16:43 last Friday.
	He weighed in at 8 lbs 1 oz.  He measured 20" in length 
	(him, not his penicular appendage!).  Mom and baby are
	doing very well.  They got to come home Saturday afternoon.

	I now have my two boys that I wanted.  I needed two to
	drag my deer/elk when I get too old ;^)  They can also
	pull duty dragging out my duck/goose decoys to the blind!

An_absolutely_beaming_Claybroon
    

	Document: 	FISHnet Product Desription

	Revision History:

	First draft, V0.1:	MWLP 22-May-1991 

      Introducing FISHnet, the office communication system of the future.

FISHnet, Fiber Interoffice Sound Hose network is a cooperative effort between
Digital Equipment Corporation, True Value Hardware stores and Herman's Sporting
Goods. The FISHnet enables local area communications via industry standard
conveyance materials and low cost hardware using analog auditory wave
propogation.

FISHnet hardware consists of simple wave propogation material referred to as
the Signal Transmit/Recieve Interconnect Network Grid (STRING). Digital has
selected high strength plastic media commonly used in the maritime industry as
the basis for STRING. STRING is connected at the appropriate end point
communication stations to a Cylindrical Accumulator Node (CAN). The CAN itself
is an industry standard open solution to many containment engineering problems
and is innovatingly being utilized here for communication services. STRING to
CAN connections are handled by the ingenious Key Native Oscillation Transfer
(KNOT) devices devised by Digital Equipment Corporation. This simple, yet
elegant, interface device took years to perfect and has undergone rigorous
testing at our Littleton, MA facility. Multi node STRING confgurations are
implemented utilizing the Entry Yoke Enterprise-wide Hose Oscillation Organizing
Kernal (EYE-HOOK). Through a combination of KNOT and EYE-HOOK technologies,
STRING can be configured across fairly large distances without loss of signal
power. If larger distances are necessary, a separate product, the Yield
Enhancing Language Launcher (YELL) is available to boost signal power.

    
    Is this FISHnet a dolphin-safe enterprise?
    

    
    	I had a nice surprise in the mail Saturday
    
	A DOE TAG!  Hopefully, there will be a cow elk tag in
    	the mail this week.
    
    	Claybone

    
    The first time I had ever gone duck hunting was the Fall of 1987.  The
    method was simple:  trudge around the edge of a few local ponds with
    my buddy Zeke the wonder dog, hoping to flush something out of the
    reeds.  Ducks seemed as scarce then as they do now, so once the pond
    was circled, that was it.
    
    This day I was with my father-in-law and some of his long-time hunting
    buddies, but they didn't seem to mind "The Pilgrim", as they called me,
    since I had the best retreiver.
    
    Out in the middle of this pond was a flock ducks, so one guy took a
    shot over their bobbing heads to get them to rise and they came right
    across in front of me.  Now I wasn't quite sure about how much lead I
    needed, so I just aimed for the lead duck, fired, and ended up dropping
    one somewhere in the middle of the pack.  One guy identified it as a
    ring-neck, and since none of these guys had ever bagged one before,
    they suggested that I have it mounted.  "What the hell", I thought, and
    took it home and chucked the whole thing into the freezer.
    
    The end of November was coastal season, so "Dad" and I and ol' Zeke
    took the boat out of Hingham harbor at the crack of dawn and headed for
    the small rocky islands not far from shore.  Now *this* was hunting!
    No tromping around.  Just sit there and wait for the ducks to come by
    you, usually in twos and threes, flying just inches above the surface
    of the water.  I must've blown a half a box of shells before finally
    giving a duck some kind of heart attack that he just fell out of the
    sky.  Even Zeke was looking at me like, "Why don't you just give me the
    frikken gun and let me try."
    
    We got a few buffleheads, but the first duck I took was a goldeneye. 
    Since once again nobody else had ever bagged one, on their suggestion I
    took it home and dropped it in the freezer for future reference.
    
    Months went by and the ducks forgotten, until one night when the
    conversation got around (as it usually does) to hunting.  "Dad's" buddy
    had a coyote he wanted skinned, while Dad himself had a snow goose he
    wanted mounted, and with my two ducks in the freezer, we made a date
    with the taxidermist.  September of '88 we brought them all to be
    stuffed.
    
    So let's see....what was the point of this story anyway?  We were told
    everything would be ready in the spring.  When the flowers bloomed, we
    were told we could have them by Fall.  Then by Christmas.  Then in time
    for father's day.  We took turns calling this guy to get on his case.
    
    Well, last weekend was they day they would be ready.  First Friday,
    then Saturday, then "definitely by noon on Sunday."  I knew we should
    have called before we left for Keene N.H., because I felt we were still
    going to get the runaround after this guy had our critters now nearing
    three years.  "Come back in an hour" we were told, as he was putting
    the finishing touches on the flying mount of a snow goose.  The hour in
    Wendy's was pretty slow.
    
    But anyway, I said all that just to say that I finally have my
    standing-mount ringneck and goldeneye ducks with the stone-like base
    now perched on my mantle above the wood stove and they look great. 
    They guy may be slow, but he does great work.
    
    Zeke, by the way, just looks at them and drools.
    
    Dickstah
    

    
    	Wah!  No cow elk tag.  Oh well, I can put in for a leftover
    	license in another area and go big game hunting 2x instead
    	of one.  On the other hand, it's easier to drag 'em out
    	if they have horns on 'em.........
    
    	Claybone

    2, count 'em, 2 34" stripers landed last night.  
    
    Problems is, they have to be 36" to be keepers.
    
    Fun, nonetheless.
    
    Mark.

       You wouldn'ta kept a 36" one either, right?
                                     Denny

    Guess again, Denny.
    
    :^)
    
    Mark.

Lufey keeping a Pair of 34" ?  Did they put up a fight or did they just jump
out at you !

    
    >     2, count 'em, 2 3/4" stripers landed last night.  
                        ^^^^^^
    
    There Mark, hope you don't mind that I corrected this for you.
    
    Dickstah
    

    Whether you are a hunter or not - you should read this month's article
    in National Geographic about poaching in America.
    
    This is serious stuff.  If legitimate hunters wonder why folks can
    become anti-hunting, they need go any further then read about dirt
    balls who hunt not to put meat on the table, nor for the 'sport' of it
    - but to either get a 'trophy' or for illegal profit.  Whether its
    killing bears by using dead meat as bait - and killing the bear simply
    for the gall bladder, or killing Bald Eagles to have them mounted, or
    killing 26 elk and 2 deer for the 'fun' of it or for the racks or just
    the 'choice' parts -these folks go beyond hunting - they get into the
    realm (IMO) or sadism and murder.
    
    We wonder who a guy like Jeff Dahmer can kill and dismember people. 
    But is Jeff much different than the mind set of a Florida Hunter who
    could kill close to 30 deer and elk in a short time for just he hind
    quarters, and leaving the rest to rot?  Guys who kill bird until they
    "run out of shells".   Folks who use helicopters and planes to round
    up wildlife, use high power lamps to freeze game at night, or use
    illegal baits are not sportsmen.
    
    To kill for a trophy is sick.  Slaughter for the sake of slaughter is
    sick.  
    
    JD

    
    	I hear ya JD.  Reports like that make me sick.  
    
    	However, I think it wrong (and I'm not saying you did it) to
    	lump all hunters in this category.  
    
    	If somebody sees or knows of something like this, they
    	should report it!  
    
    	And BTW, "baiting" is an accepted way of hunting bear.  I
    	don't hunt bear and have never given this method much thought
    	so I won't render an opinion.
    
    	Claybone

    
    I saw something not too long ago about how serious a problem these
    professional poaching rings are.  There are networks set up
    internationally not unlike the drug trade.  Bear gall bladders are
    worth big bucks as either "medicines" or aphrodisiacs, I don't remember
    which.  Same with deer horns.  The value of the rhino horn for silly
    useless reasons has put that critter in danger.
    
    They're killing these animals to sell the parts to suckers for
    exhorbitant prices, and ironically, they don't work.
    
    Dickstah
    

    
    DISCLAIMER  *****   I don't hunt, don't on, and perdislike
    
    seeing dead animals and have brought my son up to be kind/gentle 
    
    to animals.
    
    <set mode ARMOR ON>
    "check"
    
    <set mode FANTASY>
    
    JD, would you be saying what you're saying if we humans (?) weren't
    endangering most species of "big" animals?
    
    What would you opinion be if you had today's technologies and resources
    and had just landed on a neverbeforediscovered island and could do all
    those things?
    
    As Dickstah mentioned there is a cartel not unlike the drug runners.
    
    What about the $$$ they get/need to exist/survive?
    
    Discovery Channel (my favorite) frequently shows conflicts with
    extremely poor folks and how WE (mostly environmentalists) don't want
    them to better themselves by chopping down forests or killing
    "protected species" because we don't want the "natural balance of
    nature" upset but we conveniently forget about the many species we
    EXTERMINATED IN OUR GREED!!!
    
    It's a dilemma and a sociological battle (once again) pitting the
    Have's vs. the wanna b's.
    
    Depending on where you stand or where you see from, there's a no-win or
    win/lose conflict.  Put yourself in the bare feet of some wandering
    herdsman in the plains of Africa.  Do you kill the female leopard so
    your evergrowing family of 4 can survive for a few weeks or do you let
    it not be killer possibly assuring another generation of 5 or 6 cubs to
    survive and save the species?
    
    Perhaps they could continue (the herdsman) to meek out an existence by
    eating those tree roots and leaves - perhaps not.  Perhaps the lioness
    would have not litters - perhaps not.
    
    <Off Soapbox (where my reply really belongs but I'm trying to carry on
    the "Tradition">
    
    
    I perceive the spirit of the (unseen) NG article to be true to their
    image but I offer that it MIGHT e be slightly slanted in such a manner
    to evoke an anti-hunting at any cost movement.
    
    Dickstah,
    
    Until you've had a rhino horn placed rapidly between your cheeks, you
    ain't lived!  Contact me directly  for mor details.....
    
    
    Kev
    
    

    Rotten modems....
    
    I don't own a gun nor have EVER hunted....
    
    Kev
    

    Kev -
    
    Fist, I'm not anti-hunting.
    
    Second - what I'm tallkingabout is far removed from the 'starving' 
    plainsmen.
    
    These A**holes are doctor's from Florida and other businessmen who kill
    for 'trophies' and with no regard or respect to nature.  They wantonly
    kill and destroy for pleasure.
    
    Or they are, as Dickster said, no better than drug runners.  They kill
    because some jerks will pay big bucks to take ground up bear gall
    bladders in the hope it will help their shriveled d*cks to stay up
    longer.  
    
    Kev - you totally and 100% missed the point of the article and of my
    note.   These poachers are about GREED.  THey aren't starving or facing
    death if they don't kill.  Some are 'collectors' of rare animals. 
    Hunting loses its 'sport' when the techniques are used that they use.
    
    The issues you bring up are totally different - though they warrant
    serious thought.  The 'settlers' in the USA certainly destroyed with
    wild enthusiasm.  However, I always thought it better to learn from the
    past, and not to say "Well, you guys did it that way..."
    
    After natural resources are gone, and 'starving' country is not going
    to be any better off.
    
    Remember this "If you give a man a fish, he will eat that day.  If you
    teach a man how to fish, he will eat every day"  (Or something like
    that.)
    
    Some African countries have started to make inroads into using their
    animal resources, by limiting poaching, raising herds, and culling
    them, and using the culled animals as food, fertilzer, etc., to get
    case.  A management of resources.  
    
    While environmentalists can be radical and extreme JUST LIKE other
    folks for other causes (see anti-smokers or right-to-lifers...),
    something has to be done, before its too late for many ecosystems.  As
    a people, we should be getting smarter, not dumber.
    
    JD

  
    Remember this "If you give a man a fish, he will eat that day.  If you
    teach a man how to fish, he will eat every day"  (Or something like
    that.)
    
 

Then he will buy a boat and kill dolphins while pulling up thousands of pounds
of fish. Greenpeace will be slicing up his nets..... so on and so forth. 

    I thin you hunters are too thin-skinned.  As I've said, I am not
    anti-hunter.  
    
    The proverb I quote means, at least to me, that you have to solve
    problems for today and tomorrow - not just for today.  
    
    That's why you can't stand up here in the states and tell some guy in
    Brazil trying to eke out a living that he can't clear the forest cuz
    some butterflies will die.  He's attacking his problem the only way he
    knows - clear the land and try to grow crops.  What needs to be done is
    show him a way to survive on the land, while perserving as much as the
    forest as possible, and by USING the resources of the forest to help
    him survive today and tomorrow.
    
    Of course, Jeff, perhaps you agree with unlimited poaching and the
    slaughter of elk.  Perhaps you think its okay for folks to head up to
    the Colorado hills and kill as many as possible and leave the carcass
    to rot.  There is nothing at all wrong with hunting.  Poaching and
    slaughter are another thing.
    
    And as I said, not one of the folks in the article was poaching to put
    food on the table.  It was for pure greed (and a little masochism..)
    
    I'll copy the article and send it to anyone who wants to read it.
    
    JD

    Well, this ain't hunting, but its fishing.
    
    I used to do a lot of fishing back when I was younger, but haven't gone
    as much in the last 5 or so years.  This year, I made a vow to do some
    fishing, and get back into it.  I also figured I'd try to see if my
    wife would like it - thereby making it easier to get away to go
    fishing.
    
    I also like backpacking - not camping, but backpacking.  However, I
    figured I go camping a few times with my wife, to see if she'd catch
    the 'outdoor' bug.  Worked like a charm.  She loved it.  After she
    gets a knee brace (has had 2 major knee surgeries) - we'll do some 
    good ol' fashioned backwoods backpacking.  But I digress.
    
    This note is about fishing.  
    
    On one of the trips, i brought along an old rod and reel, and went
    down by a lake and did some fishing - had the wife give it a whirl -
    and she loved it.  I was very happy.
    
    So, last weekend, we planned a camping/fishing trip.  Since I didn't
    want MY fishing equipment to be used by a girl (cooties and all that),
    I went out and bought my wife a starter set - you know - the rod/reel
    combos - simple equipment.  I also bought some more tackle (mine was
    pretty ratty - and I was low on lures and stuff....)
    
    Saturday we got real early and headed up to the North Cascades - right
    near the Skagit River.  The Salmon are heading up stream this time of
    year - and after they lay their eggs, the Dolly Varden trout come
    and eat the eggs.  Unfortunately, its a late run this year, so fishing
    was slim - but that's not the story...
    
    We got to the camp site, and I started getting stuff out.  My wife,
    very excited, grabbed her rod and reel, the tackle box, and started 
    rigging up.  I told her there was no hurry - to relax.  Nope - she
    wanted to go right out and start fishing.  We were there less then 5
    minutes before she was heading full stream for the river.  I hadn't
    even gotten my rod and reel out of the car yet!
    
    Less than 30 seconds later, I hear some mild cussing coming from the
    river.  On her first cast, she snagged the lure on some rocks. 
    Couldn't get it un-snagged - so we had to cut the line.  I'm mildly
    perturbed - because I haven't had a chance to get ready yet - and she's
    lost a lure already!
    
    Anyway, she puts another hook on, some bait, and starts fishing again.
    
    Meanwhile, I'm up at the campsite, unloading the car, and getting ready
    to prepare my fishing stuff.
    
    I here some more cusssing - and the dreadful cry of "JD, come quick,
    you aren't going to believe this!"  I figure she's caught Moby Dick
    or something.
    
    I head for the river, and there she is - mind you, we have been there
    about 5 minutes or so - and she's holding roughly 1/3 of a rod.  
    
    "The Rod Broke" she said.  I'm dumbfounded.  Sure enough, she got
    snagged, and figured she'd get the snag out - but instead, she broke
    the rod.  We could see the rod in the water - so I took off my boots
    and socks, rolled up my pants, and headed into the river to retrieve
    the rod.  Now, this water is *COLD* - being a glacier-fed river.  My
    feet go numb in about a nanosecond - I get the rod (or what's left of
    it) and head back in - almost slipping and cracking my haid on a rock.
    
    We have a little laugh, and I say - no worries - I brought an extra
    rod and reel!
    
    She says "Was it a red rod?"  Yep, it was, why?
    
    She says "Well, I didn't think you wanted it, so I took it out of the
    car and put it in the garage..."
    
    So, here we are, less than 10 minutes into our camping/fishing weekend,
    and we have one rod and two reels - not the way I had envisioned it.
    
    To make an already long story short - by the end of the weekend we were
    down to one rod, and about 3/4 of a reel.  My reel got tangled
    hopelessly when my wife used it while I was putting up the tent...
    
    Oh yeah - and I fell in the river!  My wife saw a fish jump down river,
    so she screamed real loud - I thought something happened, and my first
    instinct was to move towards her - unfortunately, I was standing on a
    rock on the edge of the river, and ended up getting soaked....
    
    An enjoyable weekend anyway - but not exactly a 'fishermans' dream 
    weekend....
    
    JD

       He coulda used the Hudson Slasher. They got mutant carp in there!
                                      Denny

    /Don -
    
    Why Noo Yawk is surrounded by water - but you knew that.  Used to
    go fishing in the Atlantic, or upstate.  Though, at one time, you could
    fish in the Hudson above Noo Yawk Sit-ee.  But then G.E. brough all
    good things to death with PCBs.
    
    that was the end of fishing.  Heck, there used to be crabbing in the
    Hudson...
    
    JD

JD, I'm surprised at you!

The things that GE pumped into the river improved fishing.

Why, I used to catch two-headed fish all the time!  More meaty fish,
and an EXTRA fish-head for the cat.

My creel used to glow in the dark, so I never had to look hard
for it at the sunset end of the day.

GREAT fishing in new yawk....

'Saw

Actually New York has done quite a bit of work within the last 5 years or
so to clean up the Hudson and East river's. I saw a fishing show aired last
season and they were pulling out some nice Blues and Striper's. Of course
eating these fish could cause mutation..



Steve

    That was a good fisin story JD. It  reminds me of the saying, bumper
    sticker or whatever. "My worst day of fishing was far better than
    my best day at the office." 
    
    Big game season tis upon us once again. We took out the rifles sunday
    to do some last minute fine tuning and everything looks good for now. 
    Being a novice to all of this just 2 years ago, I'm still looking 
    to fill a tag.  Even so, that didn't detract from BoB's most excellent
    outdoor adventures. 
    
    BoB

    BoB -
    
    Funny you should mention that bumper sticker.  When my wife got a
    little discouraged about the equipment 'failure' and the lack of fish
    catching, I quoted her that, got her a beer, and settled in for some
    more fishing. She agreed a 100%.
    
    Our nexted venture (or at least mine) is to go out on a boat into
    Pugent Sound for some real salmon fishing.  Just let me catch one, Dear
    Jesus....
    
    JD

>    Our nexted venture (or at least mine) is to go out on a boat into
>    Pugent Sound for some real salmon fishing.  Just let me catch one, Dear
>    Jesus....

If I might make a suggestion JD....

	DON'T take the wife.  If you do, you know what will happen.

	I'll be sitting there some night watching Rescue 911, On Scene
	or Cops (In Seattle), and they'll be showing footage of this
	boat sinking in Puget Sound with Coast Guard Cutters, helicopters,
	a boat full of cameramen, and a dinghy with an amateur videographer
	trying to get on CNN all converging on you.


Good luck.....

And hey, if you catch some, smoke some up, got to the Executel
and hand it out to people you've just met.....  8^)


'Saw

    
    Smoked salmon is lousy, and you can't re-use the pipe afterwards
    either.
    
    Dickstah
    

    Ha ha ha, you're really sharp today, Dipstick, err, Dickstah.  :*)
    
    LeE

    Where's Luffy?????
    
    REK

       He's down in Foxboro setting up his table for Sundays Pats game.
    Either that or he's off hunting with Schneid.
                                   Denny

    
    	17 days.................. :^)
    
    	Claybroon

>       He's down in Foxboro setting up his table for Sundays Pats game.
>    Either that or he's off hunting with Schneid.
>                                   Denny
    
    Make that hunting for Schneid

    
    	I'm outa here!  Trip report to follow..........
    
    	Claybroon

    

  It had been a long morning and by 10:30 the combination of hunger, 
fatigue and heat was beginning to take it's toll. That and the fact that
I had not seen a legal animal for the past two days added up to break time
and a cold one back at camp. It was an uphill walk all the way over
BLM road but I use the term 'road' very loosely here. It is a 
dusty old beaten thing that is deeply rutted from wetter and wilder times. 
Near the Black Canyon of the Gunnison,it meanders thru some meadows but mostly
thru thick stands of pinon pine, limber pine and  lots of god awful scrub oak. 
The mind tends to wander at times such as this and wandering it was,
thinking about a 100 things at once and then nothing at all. That was the
situation and unbeknown to me, the picture was about to change dramatically.

  At first it could barely be heard but something was moving in the brush just
up ahead. Before long the beating and pounding was abreast of me just off to
the right. I turned slowly as my pulse began quicken and there they were.
I said to myself.."it's ELK!". A herd of them were streaming nose to  tail
not more than 15 yards away thru the dense cover. My view was blocked so 
I slowly began to move up hoping to improve the picture but just then
there is a loud crash just ahead near the end of the herd and standing right 
in the middle of the road is a beautiful 5 point bull with 2 of his harem.
They weren't more than 35 yards away and they still hadn't seen me! With 
these critters crashing all  around me, well, I can honestly say I didn't
know weather to shit or go blind and to top it off he starts walking 
towards me. It felt like an eternity and he got so close I thought I might
touch him but then he hit the brakes as he slowly raised his head and 
looked me right in the eye.

  As fate would have it, that bull and I each made a big mistake that 
morning. He was probably thinking how sweet that last breath felt and
hoping the shot would cleanly and quickly dispatch him to greener
alpine meadows. What was my mistake?  I didn't have an elk tag.
We parted company right then and there probably never to see each other
again.   I believe I can speak for the both of us when I say we came out
of that affair much wiser.  With any kind of luck at all we'll both get
a little older too. 
 

  BoB

  

    
>>					 I can honestly say I didn't
>>know weather to shit or go blind and to top it off he starts walking 
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    Doesn't sound like much of a choice to me!!!!!
    
    (8^0*
    
    JaKe
    

    Why hunt coyotes?
    
    Fur
    Sport
    Trophy
    Perceived public/livestock menace (although I believe that non-hunting
    advocates claim that coyotes are non-aggressive)

    
    We hunt 'em because they've driven every frikken roadrunner out of the
    State of Mass.
    
    Dickstah
    

No they haven't, I'm still drivin' one...

daryll

    
    Hawk
    
    One thing about coyotes, they are really wiley.  
    
    JD

       Wasn't COYOTE the name of the union the hookers had out west a few
    years ago?(qic)(questionmark is correct)
                                      Denny

    Well if we can't keep the subject on hunting, how 'bout songs about
    hunting.
    
    What the opinion about "Tirty Point Buck" by the Yuppers?  Anyone heard
    it?  It is played ad nausium (?) on the radio in Wisconsin.
    
    Scott
    
    FYI - Yuppers, as in residents of the Upper Peninsula (UP) of Michigan. 
    Almost a seperate state, kinda like West Virginna.

    IT USED TO BE YOU COULD GET $55 or more per coyote pelt. Why the bottom
    has fallen out of the market, I'm not real sure. The only time that
    the pelts are or were of any real value was during fall and winter
    when they were thick  and full. The rest of the year the coats 
    shed and appear real ratty. In Colorado they are considered a varmint
    and can be taken year round with a small game lincense. They've been
    traped, shot, poisoned and attacked from all angles but they still 
    maintain high numbers. I can hear packs of them at night making all 
    kinds of noises around my place and that's well inside a developed 
    area. Personally, I haven't heard of any real issues with them 
    good or bad.  I don't mind having them around at all.
    
    BoB
    
    

  >                                                ... They've been
  > traped, shot, poisoned and attacked from all angles but they ...
    ^^^^^^
  >  BoB
   
    BoB, you've got a typo there.  I also believe that on Sundays, when the
    Broncos are out of town, there are quite a few less coyote rapes.
    
    HTH, Brews 
    

    
    Who were the coyotes natural predators, before the Model T?

    Bruce -
    
    I'd assume larger predators - bears perhaps.  Wolves.  Large cats
    (mountain lions, etc...)
    
    JD

    
    Oh,  animals that have been hunted to near extinction.  

    
    See, hunting is a lot like rugby...
    

    Details are sketchy cause I don't have the newspaper article, and this 
    happened a couple of weeks ago.  I am not making this up, and this was
    not from a supermarket tabloid- it was in the (Lawrence) Eagle Tribune.
    Anyway, a hunter was shot in the leg by the wild turkey he shot earlier.
    Thinking the bird was daid, the guy threw it in the trunk of his car 
    along with his rifle/shotgun/whatever.  As he was driving home, the bird 
    apparently started thrashing around the trunk and hit the trigger.  The 
    gun was positioned so that it fired through the back seat and got the guy 
    in the leg.  Not only was the local sheriff amused, but he also fined the 
    guy cause he hunted a week before the season started.  Not sure where
    this happened, but it wasn't local.  Probably somewhere in West
    Virginia... :-)
    
    Hawk
    

    Hawk, with all due respect, this slob was NOT a hunter, but rather a
    poacher.  Any reference to this slob as a hunter is a disservice to 
    law-abiding hunters.  Law-abiding hunters do not place a loaded weapon
    in his/her car.
    
    Claybroon?
    
    Mark.

Hawk, with all due respect, this slob was NOT a West Virginian, but
rather a poacher. Any reference to this slob as a West Virginian is a
disservice to law-abiding West Virginians. Law-abiding West Virgians do
not place a loaded weapon in his/her car.

TTom

    Rollward, and sorry Markie, you are correct, this guy was not a hunter,
    but a slobbering poacher.  Whether or not he resides in West Virginia 
    is still rather debatable though, IMO... :-)
    
    Hawk
    

    FWIW, the incident happened in Montana.
    
    Mark.

    Montana, West Virginia, doesn't matter- same gene pool...  :-)
    

    Rumor has it that this very gene pool is known for misplacing tickets.
    
    Mark.

Unbelievable.


I cannot understand how people can be SO careless with firearms.

I have a .22 rifle.  Now I know that's not a big manly rifle with a 
scope like a SWAT sharpshooter would use, or a deer hunter or like that.
But a .22 will kill you just as dead if you misuse it.

The gun is stored in the house with a full magazine, but no round in the
chamber.  I store it that way because I live alone.  If I had children in
the house, the magazine would be no where near the gun and there would
be a trigger lock (or guard or whatever those things are called) on it.

I don't transport it.


I'm damn careful with it.   I don't know why these others boobs (or
slobbering two-teefed poachers) don't do the same thing.


'Saw

No need to apologize for a .22, Saw.

One of the nicest rifles I have is Ruger Model 10/22 carbine. It's
basically the same frame as the Mini-14, if your familiar with this. 
Its one of the finest plinkers made. It seems to be especially suited
for hunting beer cans, at least mine is.

TTom

>One of the nicest rifles I have is Ruger Model 10/22 carbine. It's
>basically the same frame as the Mini-14, if your familiar with this. 
>Its one of the finest plinkers made. It seems to be especially suited
>for hunting beer cans, at least mine is.

I think that's what I have.  It's a ruger, semi-auto, 10 shot magazine.


You have to be careful though, because I shot some dogfood cans one time.
The bullet went through the can, through the side of the shed, out the
back window of the shed off into space.  Of course, the hill on the
back side of the shed stopped the bullet from going any farther,
but those bullets can go forever I've heard...


I use it on Woodchucks, which is just about the only varmint I'll shoot.
There's a big coon scare here with rabies and all, but I don't see many
coons.


'Saw

re: being careful.

One thing about a .22 is you have to be careful when you shoot it. It's
the nature of the caliber to travel long and get there fast, but the
bullet is really affected by ricochet from almost anything.

Not too long ago, a couple of plinkers down this way accidentally killed
a teenage girl. They were in some woods about 1/4 mile away from an
amusement park where she was swimming.

TTom

>One thing about a .22 is you have to be careful when you shoot it. It's
>the nature of the caliber to travel long and get there fast, but the
>bullet is really affected by ricochet from almost anything.


How does that compare to say a .30 caliber bullet?  I don't know a lot
about guns and ammo, so please excuse my stupid sounding questions.


I would assume that if a .22 would go as far as 400 yard (or a mile I've
heard in some instances) that if I'm shooting a .30 from a nice
quality rifle, it would go farther and be more dangerous.

Or say I'm shooting a .45 pistol.  That might not go as far because
of the smaller charge in the cartridge and the accuracy suffer because
of the short barrel (compared to a rifle).  Right?


A careful, but un-informed rifle owner,
'Saw

>                                   -< F=MA >-


Are you trying to be cute, Szabo, and telling people I have a prop butt?

Frank has a Massive Ass?   


8^)
    

    
    FranSaw,
    
    	The caliber doesn't mean doodly squat about how far out it'll
    	reach out and touch something.
    
    	The variables that determine this would be muzzle velocity,
    	bullet weight, angle (w/ respect to the ground) that the
    	gun was fired, etc...
    
    	Squawk should know all of this.  He just took fizziks didn't he?
    	Check out the chapter on projectiles. :*)
    
    Claybroon
    							  

Saw

It's hard to compare different calibers of bullelts.

First of all the caliber is just the diameter of the bullet. It doesn't
describe the overall volume of the cartridge which is very dependent on
the shape of the cartridge. For instance the base diameter of a .30
caliber cartridge is wider than its neck.

Other factors include the weight of the bullet. The .22 that you get
when you buy say 22-long rifles is less than 100 grains. A .30 caliber
rifle can shoot a much heavier bullet, ,up to 200 grains.

Finally, there's the powder: what type in terms of burning rates and how
much is in it. Reloading tables usually show 3 loads for every
caliber/bullet/powder_type combination.

Just to give you an idea, a 7.62 mm NATO round can spit out a plinker
bullet about 25% faster, with about 70% more energy than a 30-30 with the
same bullet - .308" diameter or .30 caliber  - and same powder. That's
due mostly to the extra amount of powder the much larger cartridge holds
for the 7.62.

The best guide to this, IMO, is a reloader manual. I have a Speer and you
can pick these up about anywhere reloading stuff is sold.

BTW, one of the funnest activities with guns is relaoding.  It's labor
intensive unless you have a complete reloader. Curiously, beer goes real
well with this and you can generate more targets.

TTom

The problem with a shotgun is that it severly abuses the beer cans. Makes
them disappear, even.

If you want to have fun with a shotgun, try a dump. A friend of mine has
an old dump on his farm and we never lack targets. I have a 12 guage that
shoots 3" magnums and my personal favorite target is old refrigerators.

TTom

    
>>an old dump on his farm and we never lack targets. I have a 12 guage that
>>shoots 3" magnums and my personal favorite target is old refrigerators.
    
    Better watch it, you'll have someone in here who belongs to the NSPCR*
    breathing down your neck, TTom.
    
    *=National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Refrigerators
    
    
    JaKe
    

    
    Target shooting is a tru blast. Try going to the movie theaters and get
    those lifesize cardboard cutouts for targets.
    
    I have shot,
    
    Arnold
    The jolly green Giant
    Hulk Hogan
    Demi Moore
    Bruce willis
    Dustin Hoffmann (Made sure I did'nt miss)
    Ruetger Hauer (SP)
    Sean Connery
    
    
    And many more. They make great targets, and we would see who could
    shoot the head off first !
    
    
    -TH

Alos, along the lines of more conventional targets, most shooting ranges
have a variety of notables that you can blast away at. The favorite
varies from global disasters and war but at one time or another I've shot
at the Ayatollah, Saddam, Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, George Bush, you
know, all the great right wingers.

But movies stars? not yet but it sounds like fun, especially Bruce
Willis. In fact, in some states, I don't think it's a crime to shoot the
real Bruce Willis ;-).

TTom

    
    	My favorite shotgun target is ducks/geese.  I'm sure Mark "Grits
    	Gresham" LuFay would take youse huntin' if you asked nicely....
    
    	Claybroon

I used to do some dove shooting. For both these and ducks/geese, the
longer the barrel and the heavier the guage, the better.

TTom

    Did you know that there are more guns than hair dryers in US?
    
    Did you know more people In Texas, in the last 5 years, 
    died from guns than Auto accidents?
    
    
    REK
    
    From the USA Today about a month ago...

>    Did you know that there are more guns than hair dryers in US?
>    

That's because there's so many bald men 8^)


>    Did you know more people In Texas, in the last 5 years, 
>    died from guns than Auto accidents?
    

It's like anything else -- the average individual is basically stupid
and should not be handling something dangerous like a gun, electricity,
or an automobile.

I don't have a problem with guns (although I am not a hunter), but
I *DO* have a problem with bozos who have guns, bozos who drink
while hunting, bozos who treat guns like toys.


I'll bet the problem is that there are more bozos than hair dryers, 
and all the bozos have guns.....8^)


'Saw

    I have absolutely no use for a hair dryer, but I find from time to time
    that I might have a use for a gun.  I don't think that having a hair
    dryer in hand as I leave the bar alone after midnight will offer me any
    protection or thwart any attempts to jump me.  I was literally chased
    to my car one night a couple of weeks ago.  Had I had a gun in my
    pocket, I probably still would've run, but I wouldn't been so damn
    scared...
    
    Sorry, I just realized that this is a hunting note, not a self-defense
    note...
    
    Hawk
    

    
    It is a good idea to never store your guns and hair dryer in the same
    place. Somebody with soap in their eyes could reach in, go to dry their
    hair and...well, you can just imagine....
    
    I also have a caulking gun.  I keep it loaded just for emergencies, and
    I'm not afraid to use it.
    
    Dickstah
    

    I'm a law abiding Hunter...  Well mostly anyhow !!
    
    Big Game

    .5mv squared is only a small part of the equation to determine range of
    a projectile. Aerodynamics is much more important(unless you are
    shooting in a vacuum in space). For example, a .45 pistol has a very
    short range because very little spin is imparted to the projectile as
    it leaves the muzzle. This causes the bullet to tumble at a very short
    range (50m?), losing it's aerodynamic qualities and it's accuracy. If
    you want to become a marksman, learn to shoot a .45. If you can hit a
    target with that, you can hit it with anything. .45s are really only
    accurate within the confines of a foxhole, regardless of what you have
    seen in old "Combat" reruns.
    
    The major factors are muzzle velocity, spin rate, shape of projectile,
    angle from ground level, and wind speed and direction. Minor factors
    include curvature of the earth, gravitational fluctuations for your
    location, altitude above sealevel, humidity and barometric pressure.
    Relative position of Jupiter and Saturn are largely irrelevant,
    however, Uranus must be in a relaxed position.
    
    HTH,
    Chris 

Well, I know that the little snub-nosed revolvers most detectives use
are accurate to about 7 feet.  After that, you should just throw the
gun at the guy.

Which brings me to my next point.  Why, in all those old horror movies,
after the hero empties his revolver into the monster, and the monster
keeps coming, does he throw the empty revolver at the monster.  I mean,
what good is that going to do?


'Saw (who WOULD shoot a monster, but not a deer)

    You've answered that yourself, 'Saw, just don't realize it.  Like you
    said, those little snub-noses, etc. have little accuracy beyond 10 feet
    or so, so, when the hero empties his revolver into the monster and the
    monster keeps coming, the hero throws the gun at the monster's 'nads,
    figuring that the accuracy of his arm is much greater than the gun's. 
    And, if you've ever been hit in the 'nads by a snubby, you'd know why
    the hero always throws that gun.  Now, why he just doesn't throw it
    right away, before wasting time emptying the revolver, is beyond my
    genes...
    
    Hawk
    

    Be careful shooting in dumps.  Shooting at anything metal can be very
    dangerous, even for shotguns, due to ricocheting.  Always know your
    backdrop.  Avoid sand pits with large boulders.
    
    Mark.

>    Be careful shooting in dumps.  Shooting at anything metal can be very
>    dangerous, even for shotguns, due to ricocheting.  Always know your
>    backdrop.  Avoid sand pits with large boulders.
    
Dumb question.

I've got this wiley old 'chuck that hangs around about 20' from my back
door, in a rocky area at the base of a stone wall.  He lazes out there
daring me to shoot.

I'm somewhat reticent because shooting at a rockpile isn't such a good
idea I think.


What are the dangers I face in trying to get a shot at this guy.  I mean,
what are the chances of the bullet coming back my way?


Ever-cautious Chainsaw

    Chain.. please see movies concerning Elmer Fudd for your answers...
    
    REK

>    Chain.. please see movies concerning Elmer Fudd for your answers...
    
REK,

I'm not talking about plugging up the end of the gun and shooting....8^)


Or was that Daffy Duck?


'Saw

    'Saw, just don't stick the barrel of the gun down the woodchuck's hole. 
    Everyone knows the end of the barrel will pop up behind you and you'll
    shoot your platestacker off.

    Frank, I thought you had yourself a big ol' dog.  Why would you want to
    shoot the woodchuck when you can have lots of fun letting nature do its
    thing.  Or is it one of those endangered man-eating woodchucks that has
    you and the dog sceert off your keesters?
    
    	--dan'l
    

>    Frank, I thought you had yourself a big ol' dog.  Why would you want to
>    shoot the woodchuck when you can have lots of fun letting nature do its
>    thing.  Or is it one of those endangered man-eating woodchucks that has
>    you and the dog sceert off your keesters?
    
My wolf-dog has gotten them before.  One day two summers ago, I came
home and he came running off his hill, stopped 10 feet in front of
me, and dropped his prey.  

While I'm the Alpha Male, he still wouldn't let me near it to take it
from him.   Later in the evening, when I was able to get it, he'd
eaten the haid off it...


While he's gotten them successfully and is at this point in time
undefeated, I've seen what they have done to my landlord's dog (who
is part hound and engineered to go after these guys).  The poor dog
looked like Gerry Cheever's goalie mask, and part of a_ear is gone.
I don't want my dog lookin' like that, so I try to "police the area".

Suprisingly enough, since I've had the wolf dog, the only varmints
to come into the area have been the chucks.  Well, one skunk too...

Otherwise, the scent of wolf keeps most things away.


Other than that for the most part I could sit and watch a chubby old
chuck run around all day and not care....in fact, when they run they
shake all over like I do....8^)


'Saw    

    
    >While I'm the Alpha Male
    
    Well, you're a Beta man than I.  So what's being in a fraternity have
    to do with your relationship with your dog, and how does the woodchuck
    feel about all this?
    
    Are woodchucks, groundhogs, and gophers all the same animal?
    
    How much ground could a groundhog grind...ah, never mind....
    
    Dickstah
    

    Rollward on the P-Name, Dickstah!!!
    
    JaKe
    

For groundhogs, my personal favorit is a .243 which delivers a supersonic
bullet that hits before the rascal hears the shot.

Actually, vermits are about the only animal I shoot anymore. I've lost
the edge on hunting "game". I shoot a lot on farms - with permission, of
course - and most farmers would like to be rid of any and all vermits. So
when one rears its head (is that an oxymoron) and I can get in a safe and
sure shot at it, boom, which a .243 does.

TTom

    Saw, try and approach the 'chuck from a different angle.  While the
    chance of you being hit by a ricochet is remote, always err on the side
    of safety.  
    
    BTW, 'chucks are good eatin'.
    
    Mark.

		     *****************************************
		     Caught in the Act or Lack of Common Sense 
		     *****************************************

     Originally from the San Jose Mercury news, "News of the Weird".   

     (h) Dave so-and-so of Anniston, Alabama, was injured recently after he
	 attempted to replace a tubelike fuse in his Chevy pickup with a 22-
	 caliber rifle bullet (used because it was a perfect fit).  However,
	 when electricity heated the bullet, it went off and shot him in the
	 knee.

 re. many back

>    Did you know that there are more guns than hair dryers in US?
    
    That's because criminal types found the using hair dryers didn't net
    them much money in those convenience store holdups.  :)
    
    Also, re: Physics
    
    having just completed 1/2 of my required physics courses, I know that
    if you're going to throw something, throw it at a 45 degree angle to
    get max. range.   Dunno if that pertains to shootin' stuff, but don't
    see why not.
    
    
    
    
    kim
    

    

    
    I suppose I couldda just sent a note to LuFay but this is the
    *official* hunting note and any or all advice is welcome.
    
    I have a permit, and I have a BB gun.  BB gun's are quiet.  That's
    good.  I like quiet.  My BB gun is a single shot.  Most of the time,
    that's good.  This time, it's bad. I think I need a multi shot but
    before I get one, I need to discuss some alternatives.
    
    Can anybody provide an expert piece of advice and guidance on how to
    get rid of -
    
    		"Bullseye - the Wonder Pigeon"
    
    
    		??????????????????????
    
    
    I remain,
    resolved NOT too look up ever again!
    Kev
    

      It sounds rough Kev.
    
      Try some rat poison in bird seed if the bird lives close by.  If not, 
    the BB gun has always worked fur me.  Just make it look like an
    accident;^
    
    	Tim

       I wouldn't use the rat poison. Not just pigeons eat bird seed!
                                        Denny

    There is a humane way to rid yourself of pigeons, Kev.  A guy in my
    uptown condo has done it successfully for the entire building.  We were
    having pigeon problems a few years ago so he went out and bought one of
    those plastic owls.  Looks just like a real owl, but you don't have to
    feed or clean up after it.
    
    Haven't seen a pigeon anywhere near our building since the day Mr. Owl
    was secured to his balcony.  Now only the little birdies visit our
    lovely home.  And it's also a hoot (groan) to see people in the park
    below stop and point saying, "Look at that owl up there!"
    
    	--dan'l

       Must be why I don't have pigeon problems. We have a real owl 'who'
    lives in the woods behind my house. Cain hear him all day long.
                                      Denny

    Won't use poison.  Not cruel enough!  I wanna wring that feathered
    "Bulls-eye"'s neck!
    
    Or maybe stuff a M-80 someplace dark and light it.  Yeah, that's it.
    
    Do I need a permit?
    
    deen to wonk
    
    Kev
    

      What people don't know will hurt the bird...
    
    	HTH
    
    	Tim

    What's the dilemma, Kev????
    
    pigeons are just rats with wings, so get'cherself a manly shotgun and
    make minced meat out of the SOB!!
    
    JaKe
    

    
    Hey normally I don't have a problem with the underpass dwellers.
    
    'cept the one I named "Bulls-eye"
    
    *HIM* I hae a problem with......
    
    ;^(
    
    I don't have a shotgun either.  Think 10 pumps of the BB gun has enuf
    power to ruin his day?
    
    Kev
    

    Sheeeeeeeeeeeeit, Kev, 10 pumps might do it, but ya gots to be
    accurate, with a manly shotgun, you can be off on your aim, but be in
    the general neighborhood and still make a flyswatter outta him.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    They tried the owl trick here at MRO where the pigeons were nesting
    over the connector tunnel.  Last time I looked, the owl was still
    hanging there and the pigeons were nesting just a few feet below it.
    
    Rubber snakes are said to work, but then again they may be no better
    than plastic owls.
    
    Dickstah
    

They use the owls at Great Woods, up under the roof.


hth,
'Saw

    
    	I bagged myself a cow elk tag and an either sex deer tag on
    	Saturday!  :*)  :*)  :*)
    
    Claybone

|    	I bagged myself a cow elk tag and an either sex deer tag on
                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


So Claybone, you sayin' you go both ways?


8^)


'Saw

    
    	That's me.  The "AC-DC deerslayer"! :^)
    
    Claybone

    
    Dickstah gets a doe permit!  If it's brown, it's down!  Well, maybe.
    
    I shot a nice doe just the other day.  I was headed home through
    the back roads of New Salem, when I happened to glance over and there
    was this deer standing broadside in a big field.  I pulled over just
    past the open area, opened the car door quietly, and sneaked along the
    tree line where I could get a shot.  As I aimed, I noticed another
    deer just behind the first one along the edge of the woods.  It was
    hidden just enough that I couldn't tell whether it was a buck or a doe,
    but the one standing in the field was my best shot anyway.  I aimed,
    squeezed, and that deer is now mine forever.  I can't wait to get the
    film developed.
    
    Dickstah
    

    	Dickstah,
    
    	You're my kinda hunter. Keep that shutter finger steady.
    
    	Scott

       Yeah, but did you remember to take the lens cap off?
                               Denny

    
    >       Yeah, but did you remember to take the lens cap off?
    
    Of course I did.  Didja ever take a picture with the lens cap on and
    have the camera blow up in your face?  It's not a pretty sight, I tell
    ya.
    
    Dickstah
    

    
    	So, didja marinate & grill the negatives? :*)
    
    Claybone_who's_waiting_for_Oct.31_very_impatiently

    	On lasted night's Funny Home Videos, they showed a clip
    	of someone filming a small child. She walks up with the
    	lens cover and puts it on over the lens. I guess that
    	answered the question "Does she mind if I film her?"
    
    	Scott

    
>>If it's brown, it's down!  Well, maybe.
    
    At my father-in-law's cabin, that's part of the rule of the BR, the
    full rule is:
    
    If it's yellow, let it mellow, if it's brown, it goes down.
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

    It's been interesting reading about the great hunting debate in
    Wisconsin.  The DNR has been claiming bambies will be starving this
    winter, and the hunters have been applying for doe permits and throwing
    them in the garbage.
    
    The DNR has already tried to lengthen the gun season and got slapped
    down.  Me thinks this is an (extended) backlash from the Tribal-types 
    being able to hunt/spearfish any time any where any amount any size.
    
    Me thinks that the easy solution would be for the DNR to simple stop
    enforcing poaching laws and quietly spread the word. What youse tink eh?
    
    Scott (Hmmm, been a long time since I've had venison)

    
    I don't understand the point of the hunters not using the doe permits.
    If the game is there for harvesting, why not?
    
    Unregulated hunting is no way to "manage by non-management."
    
    Dickstah
    

    >I don't understand the point of the hunters not using the doe permits.
    >If the game is there for harvesting, why not?
    
    Just a guess, but I'd bet that there are only x permits given out per
    year and the hunters throwing them out want to see the doe population
    rise.
    
    marc

    marc has the gist of the argument. The hunters believe the DNR is
    talking through its hat, even though the deer-car accidents are high
    this and last year.
    
    Sometimes it appears that some of these hunters won't be happy with the
    deer population until they can bag a 10-point opening morning year in
    and year out.  Tossing of doe permits has been a macho right of old
    time hunters for a long time.
    
    The DNR is in a tough position with all the Indian fishing/hunting
    rights contorversy of the last several year.  The public perception is
    that the Indians are stripping the game population and the DNR is a
    convenent whipping post.
    
    Scott

    Billy from Long Island is in town. It's his 1st trip to 
    Colorado. He's hunted the whitetails of NY but this year
    it's mule deer. We're packing in for a 3 day hunt spread
    over 5 nights in a wilderness area in the San Isabel National
    Forest. I'm out of here after tonight. The packs are full
    and the VCR is set for MNF.  See you all later.
    
    BoB

    
    Only an NRA member would have a 3 day hunt spread over 5 nights. 8^)

    
    	The final score from lasted weekend:
    
    		Ducks - 2
    
    	    Claybroon - 1
    
    	

    Final in from Hampton flats...
    
    Ducks 0
    
    Lufay 1
    
    Mark.

    
    Duckstahs 0
    
    Dickstahs 0
    
    Had one long field goal attempt, too far outta my range.  Others in the
    group took two mallards and a woodie.  Lotta beavers.  Shoulda brought
    the camera, but that would make falling down in the swamp a certainty.
    
    Tree count results are in.  Colorado reports a whole $%^&load of trees.
    New England reported an identical figure of a whole $%^&load of trees
    also, but with Denny's Foxboro count of 492, that gives N.E. the edge
    with a final tally of a whole $%^&load + 492.
    
    Dickstah
    

    Colorado, I thought we were talking about Arizonas trees 8^)

    Except for my partner, I didn't see another soul for over 4 days.
    The sheriff put out a search to notify us of a family emergency
    but the search failed.  We might just as well have been on the moon
    and at times that's exactly how it felt. The weather was cooperative.
    We came out in good shape.  Neither one of us will ever forget
    this one. 
    
    BoB 

>    Except for my partner, I didn't see another soul for over 4 days.
>    The sheriff put out a search to notify us of a family emergency
>    but the search failed.  We might just as well have been on the moon
>    and at times that's exactly how it felt. The weather was cooperative.
>    We came out in good shape.  Neither one of us will ever forget
>    this one. 
    
I hope the family emergency was nothing too serious Bob.


Best wishes if it was......

'Saw

    
    	Aw come on Bob.  Let's hear the story!
    
    Claybroon_who_has_to_wait_til_the_31st

    Well Clay you asked for it so here is the rest of the story.
    
    The Collegiate Peaks are a string of fourteen thousand foot
    rock piles about dead center in the middle of the state. 
    Their names are Yale, Harvard, Columbia, Oxford and Missouri
    among others. The government has designated a major piece
    of this back country as wilderness  and it goes by the name
    Collegiate Peaks Wilderness Area.  Sometimes we in Colorado
    take the sites and scenery of this state for granted but 
    that doesn't happen when you go into places like this one.
    
    We were camped just below timberline in some tall spruce
    for protection and near a small stream that proved to be 
    a good friend time and time again.  Getting in there took
    all day with rifles and hunting packs weighing heavily. 
    Besides it's all up hill and at those altitudes it adds up
    to an awfull lot of hard work. We were excited though 
    just being in the territory knowing the deer were there. The
    next day we did a some exploring and glassed the hills at
    sunset seeing only a few doe. Sunrise would bring opening day.
    
    
    
    

Well, now *I'm* waiting here with baited breath......

>And I thought it was warm Cheeze-Whiz on your breath.

No, that's on my johnson 8^)


'Saw

    AZ has an interesting prop on the upcoming election.  Animal rights
    extremists are trying outlaw the use of steel traps and lethal
    chemicals used by hunters on public land.
    
    Mike

    
  >> AZ has an interesting prop on the upcoming election.  Animal rights
  >> extremists are trying outlaw the use of steel traps and lethal
  >> chemicals used by hunters on public land.
    
     Lethal chemicals ? 

    
    Mike, you watch too much TV.  What is extreme about barring leghold
    traps on public land?
    
    Brews, who has almost walked into such a trap

    No I don't believe it at all and agree with you Brews.  I say the
    animals already have a disadvantage against firearms.  Make it somewhat
    of a challenge and leave traps and poisons out of it.

    
     Maybe Slashman because I can't imagine what else it could be.
    Maybe you got some hard heads out there in Arizona using nerve
    gas on woodchucks or something. After we're talking about a place
    where the basketball team's mascot, The Gorilla, has "The Gorilla" 
    printed on the back of his shirt lest someone confuse him with 
    "The Coach" or "The Players".

    Very observant of you Tommy.

    
     Just bustin' ya'll Arizonans there, Mikey. I know you guys ain't
    that dumb. I bet seven out of ten Suns fans would guess which one
    was "The Gorilla" in the first three tries even without the name on 
    his back.
    

>     Just bustin' ya'll Arizonans there, Mikey. I know you guys ain't
>    that dumb. I bet seven out of ten Suns fans would guess which one
>    was "The Gorilla" in the first three tries even without the name on 
>    his back.
>    


Maybe I should write a list of Dumb Things You Shouldn't Do For Folks
In Arizona.


'Saw

>Maybe I should write a list of Dumb Things You Shouldn't Do For Folks
>In Arizona.
    
    Massachusetts and New England would be easier.  All the smart ones left
    and moved to Arizona.

    
     Lighten up Mikey just having a little fun with ya. Ain't no sense
    in you alienating the entire New England region.
    
    
    
     On a more serious note. I was just wondering how this hunting with 
    lethal chemicals works...
    
    
    [Man walks into a rod and gun shop]
    
    Customer: I'd like a gallon of cyanide, a quart of strychnine and a
              quart of arsenic.
    
    Store owner: Ooohh ! Looks like somebody's gonna do a little hunting !
    

As was mentioned in a previous note, there is a ballot issue in
Arizona this year called Proposition 200.  On the surface, it appears
to be a measure to stop trapping with leg-hold traps and the like
on public land.  However, there is some serious problems with the
way in which it is worded.  And for what it's worth, this just isn't
NRA hype.  The Arizona Department of Wildlife (or whatever it's called)
has issued a very similar policy statement.

The wording of the proposition has a policy part (paragraph B) and
a specifics part (paragraph D).  Paragraph B has a statement to the
effect that it is the wish of the state of Arizona to ban all
non-humane and lethal means of managing wildlife populations on
public lands.  Paragraph D, which lists some of the specifics,
implicitly states that hunting will not be effected by any restrictions
list in Paragraph D (not Paragraph B, which sets policy).  

The problem, according the the dept. of wildlife and others (including
the NRA), is that if this thing passes, it will set a policy that 
wildlife cannot be managed by lethal means on public land.  If pushed, this 
could effectively shut down hunting on public land.  Not just for game
species, but for any wildlife.

If you don't want to believe me, that's fine.  But before you jump
my case and accuse me of just swallowing the NRA's line, do some
research for yourself.  Get a copy of the proposition and read it
for yourself.  Or, call the Arizona Dept. of Wildlife and ask it's
opinion.  Just don't automatically disount this position because it's
backed by the NRA.

In Colorado, there's another wildlife related ballot issue this fall.
Amendment 10 is to make spring bear hunting illegal in the state.  The
group behind it, Coloradans United for Bears (CUB), is claiming that
spring bear hunting should be stopped because lactating females get
killed, and the result is that their cubs die a slow and painful
death due to starvation.  The measure will also stop hunting bears
over bait and with dogs, which CUB maintains is unethical.  What
they don't tell you is

 1) It's already illegal to kill female bears in the spring hunt.
 2) That boars (males) come out of hibernation earlier than females,
	and the hunt is scheduled so that it's over before most
	females break hibernation.
 3) All spring bear hunting is on a permit basis, and every permit
	holder has to check his/her kill with the state.  This
	has shown that only about 20 lactating females were killed
	last spring, which has no biological impact on the bear
	population as a whole.  Also, Colorado has a healthy bear
	population of between 8000 and 12000 animals.
 4) The state is already phasing out the spring hunt over the next
	3 years.  In three years, only 10% of all permits will be
	for the spring.  At the end of that period, this will be
	reevaluated.
 5) CUB is backed by the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS),
	which is on record for being against all forms for hunting.

So take a look at the facts (if you don't believe mine, do your own
research) and decide for yourself what's really going on.  Are these
two measure really what they seem, or are they some back door attempt/
first step toward a much broader agenda?

Jerry

> 2) That boars (males) come out of hibernation earlier than females,
>	and the hunt is scheduled so that it's over before most
>	females break hibernation.
    
    So it's better to reduce the bear population to females only?
    
    BTW - anyone see that 48 Hours special on the black bear poaching in
    this country?  Certain body parts of the black bear are sacred for Far
    Eastern spices and home remedies.  Since they've made that animal very
    endangered in their own land, they've come to America, with lots of
    black market $$, to get our bears.
    
    Mike

    VOTE YES ON 10 !!!
    
     Baiting animals for weeks before you hunt with doughnuts and all
    other kinds of crap to get them used to coming to one spot for their
    "dinner" and then blasting them on opening day is NOT hunting. You
    wanna shoot a bear...  track him down,  just like you would an Elk, 
    Deer, or Lion...  Baiting animals is chicken sh!t as far as I'm
    concerned.
    
    Big Game  (Who does a bit of hunting himself)
    

>>     <<< Note 32.187 by FRETZ::HEISER "evidence that demands a verdict" >>>
>>
>>> 2) That boars (males) come out of hibernation earlier than females,
>>>>	and the hunt is scheduled so that it's over before most
>>>>	females break hibernation.
    
>>>    So it's better to reduce the bear population to females only?

Who said anything about reducing the bear population to females only.
The idea is to protect females with cubs while the cubs are still
dependant on their mothers.  Females are taken during the fall season.

Jerry

>     Baiting animals for weeks before you hunt with doughnuts and all
>    other kinds of crap to get them used to coming to one spot for their
>    "dinner" and then blasting them on opening day is NOT hunting. You
>    wanna shoot a bear...  track him down,  just like you would an Elk, 
>    Deer, or Lion...  Baiting animals is chicken sh!t as far as I'm
>    concerned.
    
Ranks right up there with jacking deer.


'Saw    

>>    <<< Note 32.188 by QUASER::HUNTER "Denvers Line, Maddox, Dan Reeves" >>>
>>                        -< A BIG YES on 10 by BIG GAME >-
>>
>>    VOTE YES ON 10 !!!
>>    
>>     Baiting animals for weeks before you hunt with doughnuts and all
>>    other kinds of crap to get them used to coming to one spot for their
>>    "dinner" and then blasting them on opening day is NOT hunting. You
>>    wanna shoot a bear...  track him down,  just like you would an Elk, 
>>    Deer, or Lion...  Baiting animals is chicken sh!t as far as I'm
>>    concerned.
>>    
>>    Big Game  (Who does a bit of hunting himself)

So what's next, Big Game?  The Rocky Mountain Humane Society has already
tried to outlaw contest hunting via the ballot.  If this passes, you
can bet that will be the next push.  And what about after that?  When's
it gonna stop?

For the record, I'm not particularly in favor of contest hunting, although
the prairie dog shoot in Nutria seems to do a whole lot more good than
harm.  The only other contest that I'm aware of is a coyote hunt
somewhere in eastern Colorado.

But that's not the point.  The point is that game management is a
science, and should be under the control of those who have studied
and practiced that science, not by the uninformed public that is
voting based on emotion.  Making a game management issue a popularity
contest like this just doesn't make sense.  The Colorado Department
of Wildlife has done a good job of managing the State's wildlife.
Let's not take this out of their hands.
    
As for the ethics of hunting bears over bait, or chasing them with
hounds, I don't know.  Both are traditional hunting methods that have
been around for lots of years.  I've never hunted bears in any way,
but I'll bet it's not as easy as you make it out to be.  Regardless,
that's a personal matter and I won't take you to task over it.  I
just think it's a poor reason to vote for amendment 10.


VOTE NO ON AMENDMENT 10!!!!!

Jerry

P.S.  There is a topic on this in the Colorado Notes conference.  You
	may wish to check that out and express your opinion there, also.

    Some good points Jerry.  I know many people that hunt bears (I
    personally don't) and you're right,  it is difficult when done
    without dogs or bait.  My point is,  you already got a gun,  what
    more advantage does a hunter need.  
    
    As far as 10 goes,  I doubt that you will be able to change my 
    vote.  I beleive that baiting animals is crap.  Like `Saw said,
    it  kinda like jacking deer. 
    
    Contest "hunting" is not hunting.  lets call it what it is,
    "EXTERMINATION" !!  No if's and's or But's about it.  Now, you
    do have a point that it has done some good around population
    and rabies control but there are other options than letting
    a bunch of hilbillies get out there and go great guns on a 
    whole population of ground hogs or coyotes and then proceed to
    hang the the dead up and down fences for miles around.  Kinda
    Sick !!!
    
     I'll have to pop into the colorado conference if time allows !!
    
    Thanks for the debate,
    
    BG

    that title should be "Still Yes one 10"
    
    oop's 
    
    BG

In Connecticut, orchard owners are allowed, I believe, to shoot deer in their
orchards, but that's not really baiting I guess.   

Not being a hunter (Okay, I'll be honest, I don't like to shoot things)
I don't know all the laws.

Unlike some non-hunters, I don't have a problem with hunters, to a certain
extent.

I don't like "hunters" who don't kill clean, who don't follow a blood trail
(bow season) to find the animal, who take part of the animal and leave
the rest, and who are not safe.

But then, I guess that all the real hunters out there would agree with
me when I say that "hunters" like I just described aren't really 
hunters anyway.



I do have to admit to being a little scared the other day.  I took the dog
for a LONG walk, through all of the pastures around my house.  there's a 
lot of woods, bordering the pastures (quite deep in places).   My dog
has a  florescent pink collar, but I had my Wanderers jacket on (green
and black).

While I kept to the open land pretty much, there were times when Rak
would follow a sent a way into the woods.  I had him on a long lead
but I'd have to go "coax" him out.   

I was a little worried some boob would shoot me -- not a hunter mind you,
but a boob with a gun....



But I do have to say that having lived there for 5 years, the hunters
around my house have a great safety record......

'Saw

    `Saw...  If you're in the woods during hunting season I'd suggest
    some  florescent orange clothing.  Very Very dangerous not to have
    it on.  6 years ago my father was shot in the right sholder by a
    high powered wepon during an Elk hunt,  he was wearing the required
    amount of color.  He's fine now but damn you shoulda seen the %^$&%$^
    hole is his back...  Plus he out weighs me by about 100 lbs and wasn't
    easy to get out...  
    
    BG

Big Game, vote your conscience, but consider the following.

 1) Spring bear hunting is already being phased down, and probably
	out (my opinion, nothing to back it up).  So, if 10 passes,
	what has it really accomplished?  Do the bears win if
	you take a management option away from the DOW?  Is your
	vote based on pure emotion (you don't like baiting), or
	have you considered any of the biological factors?  At
	least get all of the facts and make a decision based
	on objective reasons, not subjective ones.

 2) Do you want any other wildlife management issues decided by
	popular vote?  Are you confident that if this passes,
	there won't be other wildlife issues on future ballots?
	At what point will you draw the line?

 3) Is there another, broader agenda being pushed by CUB and other
	animal rights groups?  As I stated earlier, there are several
	anti-hunting, anti-animal use groups behind this.  Some of
	them are very much in favor of banning all hunting.  Perhaps
	they hold the moral high ground on this issue (NOT my opinion).
	Afer all, who can possibly be for killing a mama with babies,
	or using an animal's weakness to lure it in for an unethical
	kill?  Why not take it a step further, and ban the taking
	of any female game animals.  After all, if you shoot a
	doe deer or a cow elk, how do you know it doesn't have a
	fawn or calf that you just didn't see?  And do you really
	need horses to hunt elk?  You've got a rifle, isn't that
	enough?  I admit that I'm stretching the point, but where
	will it end?

Jerry

>    `Saw...  If you're in the woods during hunting season I'd suggest
>    some  florescent orange clothing.  Very Very dangerous not to have
>    it on.  

I'm not usually in the woods, but I hear you.  During this time of year
I try to stick to the pastures, and not go too near the woods.   

And in spite of his collar, I always make sure that 'Rak doesn't get
loose and wander -- he's an explorer, and I'd hate to have him get shot!



>6 years ago my father was shot in the right sholder by a
>    high powered wepon during an Elk hunt,  he was wearing the required
>    amount of color.  He's fine now but damn you shoulda seen the %^$&%$^
>    hole is his back...  Plus he out weighs me by about 100 lbs and wasn't
>    easy to get out...  
    
Damn, Big Game, what did you shoot your dad for?   8^)


*Seriously*, that's bad shit.  Did you ever find out who did it????


'Saw

    
    All the ground around my house is a favorite spot for deer hunters.
    Last year a guy got a 12 pointer about 200 yards away and there is a
    deer path (N->S) that I used to follow looking for shed antlers.
    
    When deer season starts, there's no way in hail you'll find me walking
    in or near the woods even though I wear the loudest colors (read Rodney
    Dangerfield) found anywhere.  
    
    If I need to take a walk, I'll go to the high school atheletic fields.
    
    I remain,
    not wanting a (extra) perforation in my body
    Kev
    

    Some of this discussion is starting to border on solicitation.  It's
    fine to express your views here, but please don't ask for people to
    vote a certain way.

    MtM,
    
    Ain't that a bit hypocritical??????  Yabbut eye mean NoTY is a_'lection
    and solicitation (and outright bribery) is allowed (and engouraged!).
    ;^)
    
    I predict people will vote one way or another!
    
    ;^)
    
    I remain,
    a suspended Commisioner_of_Elections doncha know!
    Kev
    

    
     No,  Never did find out...  (It wasn't Me) Rangers/Cops checked 
    out a bunch of people coming out of the area over the next few days 
    but found nothing.  Dad is ok now,  little stiffness in the sholder on
    damp mornings and one hell of a scar.  I guess alls well that 
    ends well.  I guess my point is that you can take all the safety 
    steps and still be at risk of some Bozo with no clue.
    
    BG

    	RE: Bozo with no clue...
    
    	Big Game,
    
    	For sure. Remember the woman in Maine? Of course, she didn't
    	take any precautions and paid the ultimate price. Pretty sad,
    	nonetheless.
    
    	Scott

    
       >> For sure. Remember the woman in Maine? Of course, she didn't
       >> take any precautions and paid the ultimate price. Pretty sad,
       >> nonetheless.
    
          Wasn't she hanging clothes in her backyard ? I have no problem
          with hunting for food and I own a bow myself although I don't
          hunt, at least I haven't yet, but I refuse to go out in the woods
          during shotgun season when you have a bunch of Jethros who start
          blasting the second they hear leaves rustling. And I agree with
          Big Game about some of the tactics that are being used are un-
          sporting and unethical. Tactics like baiting and using dogs to
          tree bears and then shooting them down and I still haven't fig-
          ured out what them Arizonans are doing with lethal chemicals.
    
    
           

>>        <<< Note 32.203 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "Accidentally like a martyr" >>>

>>          tree bears and then shooting them down and I still haven't fig-
>>         ured out what them Arizonans are doing with lethal chemicals.
    
Just a guess, but cyanide and other lethal chemicals have been used
in the past to poison coyotes and other "pests".  That's probably
what this is in reference to.    
           
It seems like most folks in this conference find hunting bears over
bait and running them with dogs as a pretty deplorable and very
unsportsmanlike practice.  But how about this.

Why is it ok to hunt ducks and geese over decoys, and even imitate
their sound to lure them in so that you can shoot them as they
land?  And why is it ok to hunt pheasants and other upland game
birds with dogs that use their far superior sense of smell to
locate their quarry for their human masters?

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not against duck or pheasant hunting.  I've
done both, and enjoyed both.  The point is that there's not a lot
of difference between some time honored, traditional, sportsmanlike
hunting methods and those that are considered as bad.  I envy those
of you that can so easily make the distinction and know where to
draw the line.  It's not so easy for me.  I've no doubt, though, that
I am about to be enlightened.

Jerry

    Jerry,
    
     It's easy for me to see the difference between using a dog to
    flush a Pheasent and using them to run down a Bear, tree it and
    wait for master to come along and shoot it like a sitting duck.
    Speaking of ducks,  I believe (although I'm not 100% sure) that 
    it is illeagal to shoot ducks on the water.  If it is not illeagal
    it is surely unethical by any standard.
    
     As far as 10 goes,  I appreciate you input on the "Cons" of voting 
    yes for 10.  Although I don't believe that the information you provided
    will change my vote you do raise some interesting questions around game 
    management.  If fact,  you point around the "uninformed public" making
    management decisions is a very good one.  The problem is that I don't
    see 10 as setting a precident for anything of the such.  I see it as
    an effort by the people to stop something that I personally can not
    support.  I admit,  there are parts of 10 that I don't fully support
    either,  I guess it's the lesser of two evils (boy we've heard that
    enought time haven't we) for me.  
    
    Big Game

>     It's easy for me to see the difference between using a dog to
>    flush a Pheasent and using them to run down a Bear, tree it and
>    wait for master to come along and shoot it like a sitting duck.


In CT, if you see a dog running a dear, you are legally allowed to shoot the
dog.


'Saw

    
> Why is it ok to hunt ducks and geese over decoys, and even imitate
> their sound to lure them in so that you can shoot them as they
> land?  And why is it ok to hunt pheasants and other upland game
> birds with dogs that use their far superior sense of smell to
> locate their quarry for their human masters?
    
    Birds are further down the evolutionary scale than bears.  I think
    that, in general, if you're going to take down larger game, where there 
    are many fewer targets available, the stakes are higher and the test of 
    skill should be made more difficult.  Seriously.
    
    glenn
     

    
     This string reminds me of the Farside cartoon I have here on my 
    wall. It's a four-paneler. In the first panel there's a bear drink-
    ing from a stream and a hunter hiding behind a tree. In the second
    panel the hunter shoots the bear from behind the tree while the bear
    was totally oblivious to the hunter's presence. In panel three the
    hunter steps out from behind the tree with his fist raised in the
    air, the bear lies dead next to the stream. In panel four, the hunter
    is at home in his easy chair, behind him is the bear now stuffed with
    a look of ferocity, reared up up on his hinds legs with teeth bared
    and forepaws raised ominously.

>>     It's easy for me to see the difference between using a dog to
>>    flush a Pheasent and using them to run down a Bear, tree it and
>>    wait for master to come along and shoot it like a sitting duck.


>In CT, if you see a dog running a dear, you are legally allowed to shoot the
>dog.


>'Saw
    
    GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know where I'm moving to!!!!
    
    REK
    
    Finally a good reason to own/use a gun.....

    REK...  You got somethin against Dogs...???
    
    BG

    	RE: 32.203
    
    	No, she wasn't hanging clothes. She was outside with her
    	twin daughters. She heard one or more hunters coming towards
    	her house. Because she was afraid they were getting too
    	close to her house (and her daughters), she ran towards
    	the hunter(s) waving her arms. She was either wearing or
    	carrying white gloves/mittens. The hunter mistook her
    	for a deer and shot her dead.
    
    	There was a big trial, etc., discussed in other notesfiles.
    	The basic upshot was:
    
    		If you are out running around in the woods
    		during hunting season waving your arms, etc.,
    		you can die.
    
    	The fella who shot the woman got off with little, or no,
    	punishment.
    
    	Many of the Mainers who responded talked of how scared they
    	were as children walking down the roads, etc., when it was
    	hunting season.
    
    	If I can find the note and notesfile, I'll mail you.
    
    	Scott

    
    >> If I can find the note and notesfile, I'll mail you.
    
        That won't be necessary, Scott, your note pretty well summed 
       it all up. My friends who are hunters tell all kinds of horror 
       stories. Probably the worst one is one my friend Mike told me. 
       He was out pheasant hunting in a large meadow. There were a few 
       other hunters in the vicinity. A bird went up pretty close to Mike. 
       One of the other hunters got so excited that he took a shot at it 
       when it wasn't more than seven feet off of the ground. Mike said he 
       could feel the shot when it went whizzing by his head. All the guy 
       who took the shot could manage to do was look sheepish and say he 
       was sorry.
    
    
       _Tommy

I certainly don't wish to downplay the tragedy or gravity of the
various hunting accidents that have been mentioned in the last
few replies, but let's put this thing in perspective.  Statistically
speaking, hunting is one of the safest sports in the country.  With
the increased emphasis on hunter safety education and hunter orange
requirements, hunting related mishaps has been reduced even further.
While I strongly agree that even one accident is too many, I feel
that the record should be set straight.

Hunting is like a lot of other sports.  By and large, most participants
are honest, ethical, safety-minded folks who take every precaution to
insure theirs and others safety.  Unfortunately, there are those in
the minority who don't engage in safe and/or ethical practices that
give the rest of us a black eye.  It's regrettable, but that's the
way it is.  I wish it wasn't so.

Jerry

P.S. FWIW, hunting deer with dogs is legal in several states.

    
>>  Statistically
>>speaking, hunting is one of the safest sports in the country.
    
    Only for one of the "teams", the ones with the guns, the other team
    usually gets killed.
    
    
    Schnort Schitt Schleps
    
    JaKe
    

    
>>  Statistically
>>speaking, hunting is one of the safest sports in the country.


	totally rollward!




	Bill

>>               <<< Note 32.215 by PFSVAX::JACOB "Mets in '93" >>>

    
>>  Statistically
>>speaking, hunting is one of the safest sports in the country.
    
>>    Only for one of the "teams", the ones with the guns, the other team
>>    usually gets killed.
    
    
    JaKe,

The way it usually turns out for me, the other team does ok.  ;-)
    
Jerry

    You're right Jerry,  the stats say the hunting is one of the safer 
    sports...  They also say, based on milage, that its safer to fly
    on the space shuttle that it is to take a shower.  I agree with your
    analysis though.  99% of the folks out there are safe hunters,  it's 
    the friggen 1% that will get ya every time.  One other thing,  You get
    hurt in football and you get a broken leg, groin pull, etc...  you
    get hurt hunting and you could be really dead... I think the risk
    factor is a bit higher anytime gun are involved.  
    
    I wanna set the record straight.  I hunt.  I go Big game, Bird, and
    small game.  I love it.  I am not an anti-hunter (HA HA), just have
    some values that overide my NRA membership most of the time.  Any
    organization that can push to keep teflon bullets leagal (otherwise
    known as cop killers cause the will go through a vest) has got's
    is head stuck up it butt.  I am a member,  but I certinly don't agree
    with all of their stances on particular issues.
    
    BG

    
    	Out here in Colorado, we call shooting ducks on the water 
    	"Lufay'in 'em"!  ;^)
    
    Claybroon

    
     Thats right Claybroon.  An who'd wanna be labeled with that
    handle...  ;^)
    
    BG

    
    Hail, I dunno much about hunting birds with a gun but most of the time
    I enjoy flippin the bird!
    
    I remain,
    Kev_for_JaKe
    

I might be huntin' some humans with a baseball bat this weekend.

I have a friend who raises pheasants, on a rather large pheasant farm.
(One of his main customers is the State, who uses his birds to stock).

Anyway, someone broke into his "compound", cutting an electrified fence
and stealing a lot of birds.   Pheasants are only one rung above turkeys
on the Stupid Scale, and would not have run or made noise, but have
flown up and down in front of whoever was doing the taking.  The figure
it was three guys.

I've offered to "assist with security" until he can get an alarm system
rigged up.


Boy, some people are really low, you know....


'Saw

          <<< Note 32.216 by MKFSA::LONG "I miss Billy the Kid..." >>>

    
>>>  Statistically
>>>speaking, hunting is one of the safest sports in the country.
>
    >	totally rollward!
    
    What's so funny about the truth.  I've seen the statistical data that
    supports this.  Hunting is safer than nearly every recreational
    activity (fatalities and non-fatal injuries).  Hunting is safer than
    bicycling, boating, running, swimming and motorcycling, to name a few.
    
    Mark.

    
>>>  Statistically
>>>speaking, hunting is one of the safest sports in the country.
>
    >	totally rollward!
    
  >  What's so funny about the truth.  I've seen the statistical data that
  >  supports this.  Hunting is safer than nearly every recreational
  >  activity (fatalities and non-fatal injuries).  Hunting is safer than
  >  bicycling, boating, running, swimming and motorcycling, to name a few.
    
    I agree.  Now if he'd said "dastistically" safer, *that* would have
    been funny...
    
    glenn
    

	You guys must all been drinking too much coffee the last few days!

	re: the last few

	Anytime I here someone mention the three words;
		hunting
		safe
		sport
	in a serious tone I can't help but laugh out loud.  If that bothers
	any of you, hit <next unseen>.  Now before a bunch of you mark me 
	as a gun-control, anti-NRA, bleeding heart liberal, anti-hunter 
	let me assure you I consider myself none of the above.  

	My point is simply that walking around in the woods where people
	who I don't know are carrying loaded weapons, and sometimes (and
	in my opinion this is a vast minority) have little or no training
	in what they are doing, is anthing but safe.

	Agreeably, this is 'statistically' safer than playing rugby.  The
	number of people injured hunting per number of people that  hunt 
	vs the number of people injured that play rugby per the number of
	rugby players is probably is probably significant. (Right Mac)

	Maybe you just need to know some of the people (from each exteme)
	that I know to understand this. 

	Bill

    
    Yeah, the "statistical" part to the argument is true but it's kinda
    meaningless, as Bill says.  It doesn't tell you anything about how
    careful the average hunter is.  I mean, dastistically speaking, the
    more Budweisers a hunter consumes, the less likely he is to hit you... 
    
    glenn
    

    Point taken, and I too, have been touched by both sides of the safety
    issue.  My cousin accidently emptied both barrels of this 16 guage into
    his own abdomen while trying to fend off an attack by another hunter's
    dog.  He's alive and well today and still hunts.
    
    On the other side, I've had to defend this safety issue on an annual
    basis and get tired of the same tired arguments that hunting is not
    safe.  Consider that over 200,000 hunters decended on the state of
    Maine last year over a 4 week period and that there wasn't a *single* 
    hunting fatality.
    
    Mark.
    
    BTW, most hunters I know were outraged that the bozo that shot the
    woman in Maine did no time.  I even wrote a letter to the local
    newspaper saying so.
    
    

Those Maine hunters must be some bad shots if not a single one out of 200,000
could bag anything...

Oh, you meant HUMAN fatality....


Metz who hunts with a camera...

    I agree Mark about your dastistical analysis on safety.
    
    Now I believe we'd all be much safer if we allowed open season
    hunting on motorcyclists.
    
    8^)
    MikeL
    
    

    HEY !!!   That ain't as funny as you might think it is...  I've
    nearly been run down several times this summer by a$$holes who
    think it's funny.  In Colorado,  riding your bike can be nothing
    short of a life and death situation.  Lucky I have a rocket that
    has the power to pull 60 mph and less than 4 seconds so I can get 
    out of the way.  I know you got a  :^) on your note but it ain't
    too funny after you've slid 250 feet on your head, ass, back and
    other parts of your body after some jerk takes you out.  I know,
    I been there.  
    
    
    	No flame...  Just my opinion
    
    
    BG

 
    too funny after you've slid 250 feet on your head, ass, back and
    other parts of your body after some jerk takes you out.  I know,
    I been there.  
    
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That wasn't a red Toyota Pickup was it Jack...

 
    
    
    
 

    No...  But it wasn't to far from your house Jeff...  Did ya have
    company or something ???
    
    BG

    
    re Arizona propositions:
    
    One hand we have someone stating he doesn't necessarily support the
    NRA, then he sounds likea direct quote from American Rifleman... hmmmm
    We have more advertiesements in AZ against prop 200 then Ross Perot,
    you tell me where the beig (out os state) mmoney is coming from.  Oh,
    di I mention that the former AZ Attorney General is the Prez of the
    NRA.  I have never seen more bullshit (I can say that, I'm a mod)
     spread on a single issue .  The ads are aying that the prop will cost
    billions (with a b).  The state busdget is orders of magntiude less
    than that, how can a prop cost that much?  Mr Corbin (pres of NRA) has
    been on the radio saying it will stop all hunting and fishing, but when
    pushed, he doesn't stay specifically how.  They are also using a tactic
    in AZ that has always worked.  If you say a prop is "confusing" people
    won't vote for it.  It's called the "sun City syndorome" where people
    are too old to think for themselves (something quite popular with the
    NRA).  
    
    What I like about the proposition is that if I go fishing or hiking 
    on public (i.e. US) property with my dog, I don't have to worry about 
    her running into a legtrap left there for a coyote.  WTF is confusing
    about that?
    
    Don't worry though, the NRA has poured enough out of state $millions to
    kill any chance of it passing.
      
    Brews 
    
    

    
    sorry for the typos in -1, I'm using the laptop (AKA dinz) keyboard

Hunting, like rugby, or football, or golf, or snowmobiling, will always
have several types of people:

		o responsible people

		o bozos


Unfortunately, a couple of bozos can make all who are involved with an
activity look bad.


For years in the volunteer Fire Department, all it tooks was a couple of
jerks who'd blow red lights, and drive like a$$holes on the way to a call,
to make the entire department look bad.


It's the same thing with hunting.  I know hunters (my father for example)
who give firearms and ammunition the same respect that you would give
live electrical wires.   I also know some bozos who brag about hunting
that scare me even when they are not in the woods with a gun.


Motorcycling is a life and death activity.  I don't ride much any more
(although after seeing the new Harleys I'd love to have the $$$ to
buy one), because there are too many bozos in cars who just don't have
a clue.....


'Saw

    Calm down boys.
    This car motorsist is very aware of motorcyclists and show the
    same respect I would to any vehicle. And again, yes there are idjit
    car drivers who pay no heed to motorcyclists.  And on the other hand
    you have a handful of yahoo motorcyclists who weave in and out of
    traffic, zoom right up behind you and scare the livin' bejeezus out
    of you. It is for THOSE few idjits that I wish I was carryin'.
    
    JMHO,
    MikeL
    

    
    I hunt for bullseyes, trip's doubles, ton eighty's etc in my basement.
    
    Is that a safe sport?
    
    reach down and help me!
    
    I remain,
    wondering if I can poke my eye out too!
    Kev
    

>    wondering if I can poke my eye out too!


According to the Universal Mothers Manual, Chapter 3, Section 4, Paragraph 6:


	Any implement in the world has the potential to 
	put an eye out.

	When your child has any implement that you do not
	want him or her to have, simply state in a loud
	and forceful voice:

		"Put that down, you could put your
		 eye out with that"



hth,
'Saw    

>>    I hunt for bullseyes, trip's doubles, ton eighty's etc in my basement.
    
>>    Is that a safe sport?
    
>>    reach down and help me!
    
>>    I remain,
>>    wondering if I can poke my eye out too!
>>    Kev

	Hey Kev,

	Bring your darts on the 5th and I'll be glad to test your skill.


	"Bullseye Bill"

    
    Bill,
    
    I didn't know Da Bull had velcro boards
    (major grins)
    
    I remain,
    a solid class "C-D" player if I was in a league  :*(
    
    Kev
    

>>              <<< Note 32.233 by SOLANA::MAY_BR "Inside Intel" >>>

    
>>    One hand we have someone stating he doesn't necessarily support the
>>    NRA, then he sounds likea direct quote from American Rifleman... hmmmm

	That's probably me you're referencing, so I will respond.  I did
	not state that I don't support the NRA.  I'm a member.  And a lot
	of what I cited did come from the American Rifleman.  But what's
	wrong with that?  Why do some people assume that it must be
	a lie if it's said by the NRA?  Talk about a knee-JERK reaction?
	Can I say that?  I'm not a MOD.

>>    What I like about the proposition is that if I go fishing or hiking 
>>    on public (i.e. US) property with my dog, I don't have to worry about 
>>    her running into a legtrap left there for a coyote.  WTF is confusing
>>    about that?

	Then why doesn't someone draft some legislation or a proposal
	that explicitly states that and only that, and not have all of
	this humane and non-lethal BS in it?  Have you read the proposition?
	Did you miss that part?  And why to you need to stop trapping on
	ALL public land?  Is there really a problem with pets getting
	caught in the traps?  By the way, why should trappers be denied
	the use of public land?  They're citizens, too.

	In Colorado, the National Forest Service has declared parts of
	the National Forests off limits to recreational shooting.  The
	only times that it's ok to shoot in these areas are during 
	hunting seasons.  These are areas that border or are close to
	large population centers.  Why doesn't Arizona try something
	like that?
    
>>    Don't worry though, the NRA has poured enough out of state $millions to
>>    kill any chance of it passing.

	I hope you're right.  That's good news to me.
      
	Jerry

	P.S.  It is not my intention to start a discussion about the
	NRA.  I was just responding to a comment entered by someone
	else.  If you won't say anything else about the NRA, I won't
	either.

       Good thing SnideAir isn't arounf Jerry. I remember him telling us
    the NRA was the "most dangerous group in America"!
                                   Denny

>    the NRA was the "most dangerous group in America"!


Nope.  They ain't.   But I can tell you who is.....(hint, hint).....


'Saw

    
>>    <<< Note 32.243 by CAMONE::WAY "We're the Dance Band on the Titanic" >>>

>>>    the NRA was the "most dangerous group in America"!


>>Nope.  They ain't.   But I can tell you who is.....(hint, hint).....


>>'Saw
    
    Now 'Saw, leave the J       W      's out of this note.
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

    
>>Motorcycling is a life and death activity.  I don't ride much any more
>>(although after seeing the new Harleys I'd love to have the $$$ to
>>buy one),
    
    I hear ya.
    
>>     because there are too many bozos in cars who just don't have
>>a clue.....


>>'Saw
    
    Exactly why mine was sold lasted year, too many close calls in just one
    month, and I always drove leagl(no weaving, passing in ikiotic places,
    etc).  I just didn't want to leave Mrs. JaKe and the JaKesters without
    me(and verrry verrry rich).
    
    JaKe
    

    
    Let's try this again from start to finish.
    
    The Collegiate Peaks are a string of fourteen thousand foot
    rock piles about dead center in the middle of the state. 
    Their names are Yale, Harvard, Columbia, Oxford and Missouri
    among others. The government has designated a major piece
    of this back country as wilderness  and it goes by the name
    Collegiate Peaks Wilderness Area.  Sometimes we in Colorado
    take the sites and scenery of this state for granted but 
    that doesn't happen when you go into places like this one.
    
    We were camped just below timberline in some tall spruce
    for protection and near a small stream that proved to be 
    a good friend time and time again.  Getting in there took
    all day with rifles and hunting packs weighing heavily. 
    Besides it's all up hill and at those altitudes it adds up
    to an awfull lot of hard work. We were excited though 
    just being in the territory knowing the deer were there. The
    next day we did a some exploring and glassed the hills at
    sunset seeing only a few doe. Sunrise would bring opening day.
    
    I'm not an early morning person unless it's for something 
    important like hunting or fishing. There we were long before
    the crack of dawn moving on the trail into positions. The
    sun came up and all we could see were the does again. We 
    worked a huge back bowl area through the rest of the morning
    and into the afternoon flushing 3 females and 1 spike buck.
    We headed high into an old burn area through the rest of the 
    day seeing only a couple more does. The next day we did not see
    1 single deer between the two of us hitting it hard and long.
    That was a major disappointment since only one more day 
    remained in our season and the thought of coming out empty
    handed again was just too much.  That night we ate and sat and 
    planned for the final day's hunt.

    We knew where one buck was and although he wasn't a monster it
    was a legal deer by the new regulations. Besides we could still
    possibly come across more and larger deer so we headed back up
    into the bowl area. The bowl is actually what they call a 
    glacial cirque or the starting point of a glaciar that once carved	
    our hunting grounds.  It looks very much like a lunar crater 	
    with its rim arcing high above timberline showing nothing but granite 
    cliffs. It's a tremendous thing to see.  Billy  positioned himself	
    below on a high point in the middle of the valley. I would then
    walk up into and work the treeline hoping to move any animals down
    towards my partner. The sheer size of this area would make it a slim
    chance but we were running short on both options and time.

    The plan began to unravel almost immediately. Billy stopped well
    short of his intended point.  On the other hand I started walking
    and climbing up and into the bowl. The whole scene just mesmerized
    me and I kept going up and up and in untill Billy even in his orange 
    looked like only a speck far below.  It was there and then in that
    moon-like theater that I encountered and took my first deer. 
    That night we had a bit of a party drinking some beers I had 
    brought up and buried the past summer for an occasion just like this.
    We toasted our good fortune and were thankfull that everything 
    had turned out as it did. The next day would see a lot of sweat
    getting out of there. I had always dreamed of coming off a trip 
    with venison lashed to the pack frames. It was a trip we will 
    both always remember. 

    BoB  

Re .241:
    
    This is what I was talking about:
    
>           <<< CAM::$1$DUA5:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS_91.NOTE;1 >>>
>               -< CAM::SPORTS -- Digital's Daily Sports Tabloid >-
>================================================================================
>Note 32.186                     The Hunting Note                      186 of 246
>CSC32::J_HENSON "Faster than a speeding ticket"      61 lines  26-OCT-1992 11:37
>
>If you don't want to believe me, that's fine.  But before you jump
>my case and accuse me of just swallowing the NRA's line, 
    
    
    
>research for yourself.  Get a copy of the proposition and read it
>for yourself.  Or, call the Arizona Dept. of Wildlife and ask it's
>opinion.  Just don't automatically disount this position because it's
>backed by the NRA.

    There is nothing wrong with discounting a position because it's taken
    by the NRA.  I took this to mean that you didn't necessarily support
    everything the NRA said, apparently I was wrong.  The AZ. Dept of
    Wildlife is against this because much of their revenue, hence jobs, are
    funded by trapping.
    
    It's strange how when AZ tries to pass something like MLK Day they
    bristle at the idea of outsiders like the NFL exerting its influence,
    but it seems OK when the NRA pours MILLIONS (there are more anti-200
    ads here than any other ballot prop, including presidential candidates)
    of outside dollars.
    
    You also wanted to know what was wrong with trappers using public lands
    to set their traps.  Because it endangers others besides what they are
    trying to catch and is not humane. 
    
    Bruce, who read and voted against the proposition (i.e. thought for
    himself) and is not an anti-hunter.
    
    
    P.S.  Dan Schneider would have had less of a field day with the author of
    .186 and .241 then John Hendry.   
    

>    It's strange how when AZ tries to pass something like MLK Day they
>    bristle at the idea of outsiders like the NFL exerting its influence,
>    but it seems OK when the NRA pours MILLIONS (there are more anti-200
>    ads here than any other ballot prop, including presidential candidates)
>    of outside dollars.
    
    Same can be said for the ACLU and the pro-life prop.
    
>    Bruce, who read and voted against the proposition (i.e. thought for
>    himself) and is not an anti-hunter.
    
    ditto!

A question for the two of you (Mays and Heiser) who voted against
Proposition 200.  Why?

I'm not trying to stir anything up, but am genuinely curious as to
why you voted against it.  Some of your previous statements gave me
the impression that you were both for it.

Whatever your reasons, I'm glad you voted the way you did.  I would
also appreciate it if you would post the result (or send me mail, if
that seems more appropriate).

Thanks,

Jerry

    
    re .248:
    
    The NRA is spending orders of magnitude more on 200 than the ACLU even
    has.  Look at the number of ads.
    
    re .249:
    
    I thought I was pretty clear way back when.  I like to take my dog and
    go hiking and fishing on public lands.  A lot of those areas are the same 
    places trappers like to trap.  I have an unnatural fear of those traps
    and even when I see the markings am not 100% confident that the
    trappers have marked everything, and my dog sure can't tell where they
    shouldn't be.
    
    

>    I thought I was pretty clear way back when.  I like to take my dog and
>    go hiking and fishing on public lands.  A lot of those areas are the same 
>    places trappers like to trap.  I have an unnatural fear of those traps
>    and even when I see the markings am not 100% confident that the
>    trappers have marked everything, and my dog sure can't tell where they
>    shouldn't be.


Take your dog a few houses SOUTH.  You won't have ANY problems there.....8^)    
    

    I'll echo Bruce's sentiments.  Having small children, and anticipating a
    puppy for them for Christmas, public land is no place for jaw steel
    traps, lethal chemicals, etc.  I may not hunt (more into non-living target
    shooting) that often, but still like the outdoors.
    
    Mike

    
    
    As I stated yesterday, the NRA money was well spent and Prop 200 went
    down something like 58-42.  At least MLK Day passed.
    
    

The amendment to stop spring bear hunting in Colorado passed.  I
don't know the number, but I believe that it was by a fairly large
margin.

Jerry

    yeah, I was disappointed in the outcome of some of the props.  At least
    MLK passed though.

    
    	Claybroon - 1
    	deer      - 0
    
    	Claybroon - 1
        elk       - 0

    Hope I do as well !!!
    
    

    Way-ta-go Claybroon!!!!  Post a trip report ASAP!
    
    Mark_heading_to_Moosehead_Lake_a_week_from_Sunday

    Good deal Claybroon! I have lots of room in a freezer
    if you need some help keeping that elk on ice. 
    
    BoB

Congratulations, Clay.  It's hard enough just to get one or other, but both!

Maybe we had better talk. ;-)

Jerry

    
    
Date:  03-Nov-1992.
Time:  07:30
Caliber:  7mm Rem. Mag, 150 gr.
Shooting distance:  300 yds
Distance traveled:  5 yds
Dressed weight approx. 100 lbs. (muley button buck)

Date:  04-Nov-1992.
Time:  10:00
Caliber:  7mm Rem. Mag, 150 gr.
Shooting distance:  20 yds
Distance traveled:  300 yds
Dressed weight  241 lbs. (elk - yearling bull w/ antlers not even out
			  of the fur yet)

10-30
=====

	Travelled to area 43.  It was drizzling rain when we arrived. 
	Squared the backpack away and got the camper ready to "live in".
	Sharpened my knives. Grilled some deer tenderloin for dinner and 
	hit the rack.

10-31
=====

	Woke up to knee deep snow.  The plan was to hunt a bowl at
	the top of the mountain.  At the NW edge of the bowl was a
	saddle that led to dark timber.  The elk I've seen up there
	tend to use that saddle to escape into the dark timber.

	Made it half way up the mountain to an old campsite of ours.
	The snow was crotch deep now.  To hell with this!  Headed
	back down and hunted a meadow.  The snow never let up all day
	and no animals were moving except a mouse which peeked out for
	just a second.  

11-01
=====

	Woke up to app. another 8 inches of snow.  We hunted down low
	on the mountain.  I managed to cross 2 sets of deer tracks
	that were made the night before.

	The evening hunt was uneventful as well.  Still snowing and
	the animals were not moving.  Right at sunset, the skies cleared.
	When we went to bed, the stars and moon were out.  We had renewed
	hope.......

11-02
=====

	The hope we had quickly disappeared when I stepped out the camper
	door to yet another foot of snow on the ground (plus it was still
	coming down hard).  I told the guys that I was pulling my rig out
	while I still could (questionable).  I have an F250HD truck with
	the extended cab and a cabover camper.  The snow was about an inch
	below my headlights.  I chained up the front, put her in 4 low,
	and made my way 100 yards to the road.  The other guys followed
	suit.  Luckily, two of the guys (brothers) had relatives in a
	nearby town.  We've always had an open invitation to stay with
	them so we took them up on their offer.

	I got the camper squared away again and headed out for the evening
	hunt with the only guy in our party who felt like going out.

	We saw a nice area we wanted to try but couldn't figure out if
	the saddle we wanted to hike to was private property or not.
	We ran into a local down the road who was trailering some horses.
	We asked him about it.  He wasn't sure of where we were talking
	about so on his way out, he followed us to the area in question.
	He kinda grinned and said that it was private.....but he owned it.
	He was gracious enough to let us on his property.  He told us that
	once through the saddle, it was public land again.

	We climbed up to the saddle.  There was alot of sign.  It got
	late so we headed back to the truck.

11-03
=====

	Went back up to the saddle in the morning.  We decided to hunt
	to the left because of the numerous game trails.

	We walked across the face of the hillside.  About every 50 yards
	we would come to a clearing which allowed us a good view across
	the draw.  At about the 3rd such clearing, we spotted movement.
	There were 5 does making their way through the trees.  By shear
	luck I happened to be in the best position to take a shot.  I
	sat down and got into position for a good hold.  The last deer
	was making it's way through an opening.  I put the crosshairs
	on her right front shoulder and pulled the trigger....down she went!

	I had to finish her with a followup when we got close to her.
	I turned her over and she turned out to be a button buck.

	It was a fairly easy drag out.

	Went back out that evening to scout for elk.  Saw alot of deer
	on private property.  Nothing else.

11-04
=====

	Two other guys and myself decided to head back to the mountain
	where we had originally camped.  We glassed the surrounding
	mountains for elk.  We chose to go back down to the bottom of 
	the pass and forge the river to get to some public land on the
	other side.  We met up with a fellow who got a cow elk at the
	base of the hill we were getting ready to climb.  He pointed out
	a stand of quakies where he last saw a herd.

	We headed up the mountain.  I felt that we were getting too far
	to the south on the way up.  I mentioned this but the other two
	guys didn't seem interested.  We finally made it close to the top
	of the mountain to an area that overlooked a nice transition area.
	After about 15 minutes of watching, I told my partners that I was
	going to head up a little and then cut back to the north to the
	stand of quakies that we were told held elk.

	I was just about to crest the scrub oak laden knoll when I saw
	what I thought was a big brown butt.  I didn't have my glasses
	on because they were fogging in the 15 degree weather.  I froze
	and kept my eye on what I thought was the rear end of an elk.
	Sure enough, a tail twitched!  

	The next exercise was to determine whether or not this was a 
	cow or a bull (I held a cow tag).  My view was obstructed but
	the elk finally lifted it's head up high enough for me to see
	that there was not a set of antlers on top.  I pulled my rifle
	up <CLUNK> and my binoculars tapped my scope.  I immediatley
	crouched down.  The wind was in my favor so I wasn't worried
	about it getting wind of me.  I waited about 30 seconds and 
	lifted my head up again.  Her ears were up and pointed my
	direction.  I waited until they relaxed.  I chose my alley
	through the brush/trees.  I put the crosshairs on her chest
	and fired.  After I recovered from the recoil there was no elk
	to be seen and I couldn't hear any pounding of hooves.  

	I walked on up over the top to the spot I thought she was standing.
	I saw another cow go down the other side.  I looked around and could
	not find any hair or blood.  I couldn't believe I had missed.  Not
	from 20 yards!  I went back to the spot I shot from and marked where
	she was again.  I got back to that spot and looked around.  Nothing.
	I made a few circles around the bed the elk had made.  Nothing.  I
	went back to the bed and started following the tracks out of it.
	I made it about 50 yards and found blood!  It was like somebody turned
	on a valve.  It was heavy and deep red.  I spotted 2 cow elk down
	below me.  Then, to the left, I spotted her.  There was quite a bit of
	blood on the snow below where she stood.  They bolted and I walked a
	few steps when I noticed movement to my right.  The rest of the herd
	was about 100 yards up the hill from me (a 6X6 bull, a 4X4 bull, a 3X
	3 bull, a spike bull, and 10-11 cows).  That 6X6 was impressive.

	I decided not to push her by tracking.  I headed back to find my
	partners.  I made it to the top of a knoll where I had been able
	to see them.  They were gone.  I made it back to the blood trail.
	This all took about 1 hour.  I tracked for about 200 yards and found
	her lying down unable to get up.  I finished her with another shot.

	I rolled her over to find out that, again, I shot a young male.
	
	I took my time dressing the elk hoping my partners would find me
	and help me drag it out.  No such luck.  I emptied my chamber,
	slung my rifle across my back, and started dragging it out.

	It was somewhere between 1/2 and 3/4 of a mile to the bottom of
	the hill.  The first half of that was a combination of flat, then
	up, then down (repeat).  I was very happy to finally reach the
	portion that was all downhill.  This elk was on the small side
	but somehow it didn't seem small when I was pulling it across
	the flat and uphill parts!
	    
	Vail Pass, on the way home, was an ice rink.

	This is the best year I've ever had.  It was also my first elk
	which made it especially sweet.  I sure do wish I had a bull
	tag though.  That 6X6 would look nice mounted.  Hell, I'd still
	be dragging him out right now!

Clay

    
    Good story!
    
    Dickstah
    

    Congrats Clay!
    
    (Foolish question -- what are "quakies"?)
    
    
    py

    
    	A bunch of guys who look like that dude on the Quaker Oats
    	label. :*)
    
    	A tree actually.  To me, they resemble a very large aspen tree.
    	I don't know why they are called quakies.
    
    Claybroon

    
    Isn't there a type of Aspen called the Quaking Aspen?  Ya know like
    ya got yer Red Maples and yer Sugar maples etc?
    
    I know, I counted lots of 'em.
    
    Dickstah
    

    They're the aspen trees alright. aka Populus tremuloides to
    the botanists. aka quaking aspen and quakies for short.
    
    BoB 

    
    The quaking aspen is the real name (not orthonologically correct) but
    is the common name.  It got the Quaking moniker because of the leaves.
    
    Folklore has it that the QA requires the least amount of wind of any
    tree in Nort 'merica to move and the hammock-like swing of the leaves
    looks like they are quaking.
    
    hth,
    
    I remain,
    Kev_for_Crocetts_victory_garden!
    

>    The quaking aspen is the real name (not orthonologically correct) but
>    is the common name.  It got the Quaking moniker because of the leaves.

Biology alert! We aint talking about birds here! How about dendrology.

TTom

When I was walkin during lunch I saw a LARGE elk rack in the back of a Chevy.

Do you know who's that was ?

    I wish it was mine but not so.  There haven't been any 
    stats reported yet but my hunch is that this is going to 
    be a big success year for deer and elk. 
    
    BoB

    Congrats Clay! Good job. I take y'all enjoy venison.
    
    Saw a nice large white tail on the back of a CowHampsha pickup
    going south on 495 near 119 in Littleton, Ma. Don't know squat
    about deer but it looked quite big; male/female? I dunno, had small
    antlers. Was that you Lufay!!??
    
    Now tell this ignoramous Eastern city-type slicker. Is elk just
    part of the deer family liken the moose?  Edumacate me please.
    
    MikeL
    

    
    	I don't know who that would be Riggo.
    
    	I wouldn't be so sure about that Bob.  That heavy snow basically
    	stranded alot of the western slope (typically the best area)
    	hunters.  I was the only one in our group of 7 to get anything.
    	Fo figure.....
    
    	The family and myself love venison MikeL.  Wild meat is much 
    	better for you too (compared to beef).  My American Heritage
    	Dictionary sez:  
    
    		" elk.  1.  The wapiti.  2.  A large deer, Alces alces, of
    	  	  northern regions, having large, palmate antlers. "
    
    	And now you have the rest of the story........
    
    Claybroon  

    I think the BoB ment that the dear and elk will come out on the
    good side of the stats this year...  A very low kill rate has been
    reported so far this year.  I heard that there may be an early December
    lottery inorder to trim the herds to the "right size".  Nice to know
    that "right Sizing" happen in nature as well as at DEC.   ;^)
    
    BG

    A hunter, in Connecticut, shot and killed a jogger.  He mistook him for
    a deer.
    
    Where was this guy jogging?

Ken ;-)

Exactly why the trails and dirt roads in the area I live are off limits to me
from now until hunting season ends.   I know the vast majority of hunters
are careful, and hopefully actually study the 'target' before pulling the
trigger, but all it takes is one bozo with an ithcy trigger finger to end yer
life.

Actually, I've limited myself to running here at MKO, or only on main roads (which
makes me an easier target for drivers) during hunting season.   Even though I
were bright colors, I still worry about the one hunter who is the careless
jerk that ruins the reputation of hunters such as Lufay, Claybroon, etc...

JD

Here's the poop, from USA TODAY:

Hunting Accident:

Kevin Elliott, 33, of Terryville, CT., was killed by a hunter who thought the
jogging figure near Pitch Reservoir in Morris was a deer, authorities said.  He
died of a single gunshot wound.  Police ruled it an accident.  The identity of
the hunter wasn't released.



I don't know, but I've seen deer(and elk), and I've seen runners.   And I've
never confused the two.   ANyone who shoots without being sure what they are
shooting at should be banned from hunting or owning a gun, IMO.  


JD

>Kevin Elliott, 33, of Terryville, CT., was killed by a hunter who thought the
>jogging figure near Pitch Reservoir in Morris was a deer, authorities said.  He
>died of a single gunshot wound.  Police ruled it an accident.  The identity of
>the hunter wasn't released.


I'm not real familiar with this area.  It's near Waterbury, and I know
that Morris is pretty rural (you can tell because, like Hebron, Morris is
part of regional school system -- Warren, Morris, Goshen, or WaMoGo).

My best guess would be that the roads were more like logging roads and
such, but I really couldn't say.

It's pretty tragic!

BTW, the Mayor of Waterbury had suspended hunting in that area for a week.
I don't know what a week is going to do (unless it's for investigation
or something)......

I'd think that after this they'd either close the area to hunting or
to jogging during hunting season......


'Saw -- who's gonna go get an int'l Orange Hat!

Sorry JD, but that's too easy on em'. They should be put in jail. If for no
other reason than to wake the rest of the negligible hunters up. Fortunately
living in the city I don't have to worry about where I jog.

mike

>Haven't heard any details on this either, but I'm with JD - I stay off the 
>trails this time of year.  I've even heard of hunters (I'll call them that for
>lack of a better term) going on conservation land this time of year.  
>Apparently cities and towns don't have enough resources to enforce the rules,
>and these jerks take advantage of it.

Having lived and grown up in a very rural area (read that "in the sticks")
I can tell you that Fox ought to do a series called "Game Wardens", never
mind "Cops".

These guys have a really tough job, because you know the poachers you're
going after always have guns.


I have this big thing against jacking deer.  In fact, if I ever had
a gun and came upon some deer jackers I shudder to think what I might do,
I feel that strongly about it.   I've reported a lot of deer jackers,
and fortunately, in my area, there are enough wardens to take care of the
problem.


If I hear more on the news about this, I'll let you know,
'saw

Saw,

My uncle was a game warden in Pennsylvania for about 5 years, then he quit and
left the state for good.   He had some really bad stories to tell.

Like most folks, he knew that most hunters obey the laws, respect posted property,
and hunt intelligently.   However, there were a large number (bigger than hunting
groups will acknowledge), of folks who poached, jacked deer, hunted on posted
land or conservation land, and who shot at anything that faintly resembed 
a deer or anything.   He had been fired upon in a couple of cases.   

Like in many other things, many times these folks had no license, and unregistered
guns.  So legal hunters pay the price for these folks.   

He quit when his game warden truck got shot at.  He figured either they shot at
it because he was the game warden, which didn't enthuse him, or they mistook it
for a deer, which scared the hell out of him....

JD

    
    	Good for you 'Saw.  If anybody sees anything like that, they
    	should report it immediately.  I wouldn't try to intervene
    	though.  Anybody willing to jack a deer is probably willing
    	to jack you (especially if you fired on them).  Let the
    	authorities handle it.
    
    	I read somewhere that the job of "Game Warden" is more dangerous
    	than being a police officer.  I have the utmost respect for those
    	guys/gals.
    
    	That *hunter* in Connecticut should be locked up.  There is no
    	excuse for not identifying your target first!  And, you'd better
    	know damn well where that bullet will go if you miss (ie don't
    	shoot at an animal silhouetted against the sky).
    
    	I could tell you guys a chilling story about a guy from Missouri
    	I had the misfortune of running into about 3 years ago.  Makes
    	my pulse race just thinking about it.....
    
    Claybroon

    Pretty scary !!!  It only takes one...
    
    BG

    
>    	I could tell you guys a chilling story about a guy from Missouri
>    	I had the misfortune of running into about 3 years ago.  Makes
>    	my pulse race just thinking about it.....
    
Come on Clay, you got us interested now...

Joe

    FWIW, Jack Lambert, former Steeler great, is a gmae warden in
    Pennsylvania.  He is big on nailing poachers, and uses many means,
    including setting up decoy deer, to do it.
    
    
    What is deer jacking??
    
    Is that where you sneak up on a deer, hop on his back, hold a gun to
    his head and make him ride ya around the forest fer a few hours, then
    ya get off and leave him miles from home?????
    
    
    JaKe
    

>    Is that where you sneak up on a deer, hop on his back, hold a gun to
>    his head and make him ride ya around the forest fer a few hours, then
>    ya get off and leave him miles from home?????
    


Deer (and other animals as well I think) have this tendency to stop dead
in their tracks and stare when you shine a bright light in their eyes.

With the deer standing stock still, even my myopic grandmother (who's
dead now) could shoot it.

That is deer jacking, or jacking deer.



One evening a couple of summers ago, I was trying out one of those
5 billion candlepower spotlights, that plugs into your cigaretter lighter
in your truck, you know, the kind that will fully illuminate a jet
at 45000 feet and is visible for 75 miles on the ground, and burns
up vegetation in a five foot radius?

Well, I was trying it out, and shined it around the back pasture.
I had four deer up there that I didn't see until I turned the light
on.  As soon as they saw the light, they all stopped what they were
doing and stared at it....


'Saw

	Well Joe, it goes kinda like this.

	It was about 15-20 minutes after legal shooting light (1/2
	hour after sunset) and we were all in camp.  This suburban
	came cruising down the road and stopped just beyond us.  He
	was parked right in the middle so that nobody could get by.
	A fellow in a truck came down the road from the other direction.
	He stopped and got out to ask the guy to pull over a little so
	that he could get by.  This gentlemen got out of his suburban
	with a pistol and fired 2 shots into the ground.  The guy in the 
	truck ran back and got it his vehicle.  The guy in the suburban
	finally got back in his vehicle and moved it so he could get by.

	Then, this same jerk gets back out and fires the other 4 rounds
	from his revolver into a meadow.  There were horses tied up
	in this meadow plus there were hunters still making their
	way out of the woods.

	Three or four of the guys in our camp started yelling obscenities
	at him.  I told them to shut up!  Well, this guy didn't take too
	kindly to being yelled at.  He jumped in his vehicle and went
	down the road and turned around.  He pulled back up the road and
	parked right along side our camp.  He then turned on his dome light
	so he could see to reload his pistol.  We could see down into his
	truck because were slightly higher than the road.  As he reloaded,
	all the while glaring at us,  I slipped into the tent and got my
	rifle.

	I came back out and one of the guys in our camp was standing behind
	his suburban getting his Missouri license plate number.  Another
	one of our guys actually walked down and started talking to the
	dude riding shotgun.  

	I shouldered my rifle to be ready because the driver got out,
	walked around the front with his newly loaded pistol and stopped
	at the passenger side front corner.  He just stood there glaring
	at my friend who was talking with the guy riding shotgun, pistol
	in hand but down at the side of his leg.  If he woulda raised that
	arm at all to point that pistol at my buddy.........

	The guy riding shotgun finally yelled at him to get back in the
	suburban.  He muttered something and got back in and drove off.
	My friend said that the suburban wreaked of alcohol.

	I shook for 30 minutes after that and vowed to never hunt anywhere
	where there is that many people.  If you hunt with me, you'd better
	be in shape.  I hike way back to get away from the crowds now.

	A guy in our party notified the sheriff's office.  They had been
	having trouble with him all week!  I don't know if they ever
	busted him.  We went home.

Claybroon

    I've heard tales of alledged hunters which were in fact 
    nothing but armed bandits coming into camps and confiscating
    any hanging game.  
    
    Last year we were hunting out by Montrose and a kid with us
    shot his 1st deer.  He came back to camp to get us to assist
    with cleaning and draging. When we returned to the site the
    deer was gone. A drag trail went under a fence onto private
    land but we followed it anyway.  Then it ended where some
    ATV tracks took off. My first insitinct was for us to go 
    get it back.  On second thought confronting a thief with
    a rifle could get real ugly.  It's just a bunch of meat 
    destined for freezer wrap.  The kid was bummed just like
    the rest of us.
    
    BoB

Latest word on the CT situation is this:

	The State's Chief Medical Examiner ruled the jogger's
	death a homicide.  The hunter, a 42 year old whose name
	escapes me at the moment, has not been charged yet, but
	is expected to be within the next two weeks.

	There were three hunters in the hunting party.  On the
	news they said that the hunter did not identify his
	target.  The jogger was apparently wearing blue.


As I hear more, I'll post it.....


'Saw

Thank you Frank.

More information greatly appreciated.   Homicide.  The guy deserves it, in my
opinion.  What a shame for the runner's family.   And this sullies the reputation
of hunters who know the difference between brown deer and blue runners.   

Thanks for the update.  I really appreciate it!

JD

>Thanks for the update.  I really appreciate it!

You're welcome JD.

I appreciate your appreciation, for it fulfills me as a noter to know that
my entries are fulfilling others......


cheers,
'Saw

    I also read that the jogger was ~153 feet away from the shooter.
    JD, am I correct that that is really, really close to 50 yards away?
    
    The shooter's name wasn't Helen Keller was it?
    
    lessee now, blue jogging suit, 50 yards away......
    
    I wanna play him in darts!
    
    I remain,
    needing airsick pills whenever I see a JD note today!
    Kev
    

>    I also read that the jogger was ~153 feet away from the shooter.
>    JD, am I correct that that is really, really close to 50 yards away?

Actually, all the news reports I've been reading and hearing say 300 feet.


>    The shooter's name wasn't Helen Keller was it?


I believe his name was Tom Cook, but I'm not sure.  It was in the paper
but I can't remember 100%, so please let me verify it.....
    


'Saw    

    Wasn't me! I don't go to Lemm.. er Conn.
    
    Conan
    

>    Wasn't me! I don't go to Lemm.. er Conn.
>    
>    Conan
    

No, it was a 42 year old guy from nearby where the incident occured.

Problem was, I read the article last night while keeping an eye on the
TV news story.  I wasn't concentrating too well on either, so I 
missed parts.

I'll look up the article tonight and dial in and put the name in here.....


'SAw

    I thought you meant the trigger man was Cook!  The person shot was
    named Kevin Elliott.
    
    Conan

>    I thought you meant the trigger man was Cook!  The person shot was
>    named Kevin Elliott.
    
Yes, I did.

At first his name was not released.  But then it was in the newspaper
article.  I think the guys name was Cook, but I could be wrong.

At any rate, I do remember that he is 42 years old, and local to the
area.  His hunting license has been suspended pending the investigation.


'Saw

    
    	A final from lasted week's pheasant in Kansas:
    
    		Claybroon:  8
    
    		pheasants:  2
    
    Claybroon

So, how did the pheasants get the safety?

And congrats on the 2 point conversion.

;-)

JD

    
    Sarge,
    
    	I was called for holding in the "milo field" zone.  ;^)
    
    	Damn thing 'bout took my hat off jumping up to fly and
    	I just stood there holding my gun.
    
    Claybroon

    
    Lasted night I read in the Woostah papa the following:
    
    In Shaftsbury, Vt. a hunter killed his brother.  Apparently one of the
    brothers (forget the name) shot a deer and began to dress it.
    
    His brother, a fair distance away saw a deer head above a stone wall,
    and the head was moving up and down.  The brother thought he was
    watching a deer bed down for the night so......
    
    BLAM!
    
    I don't think they are pressing charges.
    
    Kev
    

    Ouch !!!
    
     That guy has got to be bumming big time.
    
    BG  :^(

    We spent most of the weekend at a friend's cabin up north.  I received
    a quickie lesson in tracking and had a first hand encounter with 7
    javelina.
    
    Never knew before that mountain lion prints only had 3 toes and a pad. 
    Didn't get to see one, but their prints were all over the property.
    
    Mike

    
     What's up with that p-name, Mikey ?

    
    This year my oldest son is of the age to carry his own gun, and he'll
    be going out with me opening day nexted Monday.  Around these part,
    the lads (and lassies too) are allowed the day off from school to
    go deer hunting, with written parental permission.
    
    I'd be more happy to see him bag one than if I shot one myself, and
    I've *never* taken one.
    
    Dickstah, the Boston Red Sox of deer hunters
    

    
    My f-i-l got a bull elk the other day.  Firsted time since I married
    into the family that he's even been able to even shooot at something,
    and he'd never NOT taken anything before that!