Conference 7.286::massachusetts

    
    Sort of a sad commentary on someones life style if they absolutely need
    to walk out in the cold dark, 300 feet across a busy highway just to
    have a butt...
    
    But I digress from the question posed in the base note.

THE MORAL MAJORITY STRIKES AGAIN...

You have a terrific knack for making judgements on peoples lifestyles, must be
rough being such a perfect soul.

But I digress...

    As an interesting intellectual exercise, substitute "have a drink" for
    "smoke a cigarette", and see if you still feel the same way about it.
    
    Doesn't have to be a "drink".  Feel free to substitute whatever drug
    dependency you prefer.
    
      The law stating that drinking is not allowed on public school property
      at any time: Is this a state law, or is a local law that many towns and
      school districts have passed?
    
      I understand that the purpose of this law is to discourage students
      (and teacher and all school employees) from drinking, but there are
      times when it's an inconvenience.  For example, when my town holds its
      town meeting at the school, attendees can't just step outside if they
      want to drink; they have to walk to the nearest bar in the cold and
      dark, and across a busy highway, onto non-school property to do so. 
    
    jeb
    

RE: "Sort of a sad commentary on someones life style if they absolutely..."


Need to drive 20 plus miles to NH, to buy a 6-pack of beer because the law says
no sales of alcholic beverages on Sunday...

very sad indeed...

you people kill me...

    Do what the kids do.........Smokin' in the Boys Room!!!!!!!
    
    .1 and .3 You two are something..........This guy asks a simple
    question about having a butt......But! On No! The Horror!!!! It's not
    politically correct!!!! Not only have you had to jump in with your
    judgement on his life but you are substituting his having this cigarette
    into drug and alcohol addiction...........
    
    Of course, That's what you did on question 1! You turned us outdoorsmen
    into Ravaging Rambos out to make the woods unsafe for hiking and
    camping while trying to make animals extinct!!!!
    
    Now I remember..........substitute the facts for some emotional crud..
    
    
    Ooppps, I digress
    Have a Nice a Day
    :)
    

    Actually, I didn't judge anything, imply anything, and least of all,
    tell you anything at all about my opinion on smoking, or anything else.
    
    However, I do find it amazingly simple to say completely neutral,
    non-committal things, and see who jumps to what conclusions.
    
    Quite a "smoke-out", if you'll forgive the pun.
    
    I will share one opinion:  such a combustive atmosphere makes discourse
    about one's actual opinions less than desirable.  This place is more
    like soap-box every day (oops!  Sorry!  Another opinion!).
    
    Re: .0: Though not an opinion, I'd conclude that in the current
    political (?) climate, with entire towns going smoke-free (e.g.
    Westford), I'd guess that provisions for smokers in areas where
    children might be present are unlikely, justified or not.
    
    jeb
    

    My apologies Jeb. I understood you to open it up to an interesting
    intellectual level via substitution. Cigarettes substituted with
    alcohol and or drugs........
    
    I merely interjected with other substitutions I have seen in regards to
    Hunting, Fishing and Trapping. As the topic was already off course
    with Mr. Shwabes state of the human smoker. I thought further discourse
    would add only more charm.......
    
    Again, My Apologies......
    Bob M.
    
    
    To Mr. Morrison,
    
         I believe that you may achieve a more concise answer to your
    dilema by contacting the Town Hall and or Board of Selectmen for the
    School District of your Inquiries.............Do it quickly, as
    cigarettes will shortly be classified as a Drug and when you light up
    within a 1000 yards of that school house it's a mandatory year in jail.
    No If's and's or Butts........(<---My Pun)
    
         Smokin Stinks........but you know what? Your car puts out more
    harmfull crud and causes more damage then a 4 pack a dayer does......
    Guess what? Kills more people than cigarettes and guns combined!!! How
    come nobody wants to ban cars???? Hmmm, now that I think about it.. They
    probably squash more wildlife than hunters and trappers would
    ever take! Sorry, these digressions are a catchy thing.....
    :)

    This is not just an issue for public school property, it is standard
    policy in any medical institution, public building, and in private
    industry. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the Digital Hudson
    facility has forced all employees wishing to smoke to leave the
    building and walk a few hundred feet to a smoking shelter. The reason
    has little to do with health. Smoke is a major problem for the clean
    rooms. 
    
    My wife smokes and works as a registered nurse. Believe it or not
    the majority of nurses I know (and I know lots) smoke. Most
    hospitals prohibit smoking in all areas. They also do not allow
    smoking within a certain distance from the main entrances, so a
    person has to walk out to a remote area of the parking lot to
    smoke. This can be a problem if you work nights. Parking lots
    are not the safest place to be at 3AM.
    
    Face it. Smoking is under attack. Don't be surprised if 10 years
    from now cigarettes exist only in history books and museums.
    
    Mark

  I am aware that the chances of any town within 30 miles of Boston allowing
smoking on school property are nil. However, there are some rural towns in
central and western MA that might allow people attending public meetings in
school facilities at night to step outside and smoke, IF it is not prohibited
by state law.
  Yes, a similar situation exists with people working at night at HLO, but
it isn't quite as bad. People have to walk 100 feet or so outside to smoke,
but they don't have to cross a busy highway.
  Does state law prohibit hospitals from setting up designated indoor smoking 
areas, with ventilation to prevent smoke from migrating? I realize that
exposing patients to second-hand smoke would be unacceptable. I recall that a 
few years ago it was possible for patients who were well enough to walk to go 
to a designated area to smoke. Frowned upon by the staff, of course, but not 
prohibited.

    I heard a while back that doctors were starting to recommend caffeine
    (or coffee) by IV for patients with coffee habits after surgery.  The
    idea is that they go through cold turkey on top of the insult of the
    surgery, which created a double whammy and affected recovery times.
    
    I'd think that a hospital would almost *need* to allow patients with a
    smoking habit to smoke after surgery, provided their condition allowed
    it.  Or at least provide a nicotine patch.  Post-op is not the ideal
    time to try to kick the habit.
    
    jeb
    
    (Re: Bob M. - Sorry!  Guess I misunderstood, too.  Thanks for the
    clarification!)
    

    I don't agree...
    
    My mother was diagnosed with emphysema last spring, after 49 wonderful
    years of chain-smoking.
    
    Once you lungs shut down, they're gone.
    
    Smoking may take 49 years to kill you, but it will in the end.
    
    If anyone is tallying votes, please add mine against smoking on
    school grounds, period.
    
    That includes everyone.

    Well, I hope it didn't sound like I in any way condone smoking.  And in
    no way was I rationalizing.  
    
    But withdrawal is a difficult thing to go through anytime, especially
    after your body has experienced the trauma of surgery.
    
    And there is no doubt that I would feel bad if someone were injured
    because they were wandering around in the dark on a highway so they
    could smoke.  I'd rather they wouldn't smoke, but putting someone's
    life in immediate risk is not acceptable for any reason.  
    
    On the other hand, I have to admit that I feel uncomfortable with the
    idea of my taxes paying to construct a smkoking room on public
    property.
    
    Its not like world hunger or anything, but its a difficult problem.
    
    jeb
    

  You don't need to build a smoking room on school property. All you need to
change the law to read:
1. Smoking on school property is prohibited when school is in session, or
within an hour before the school day begins or an hour after the school day
ends.
2. At other times, the school district and/or town is empowered to allow
smoking by people over 18 on school grounds, but not within any buildings
on school property.
  This would enable people attending town meetings and other adult functions
at schools to step outside and smoke, without having to take the risk of
walking long distances outside in the dark.
  There are many laws on the books that are far more convoluted than this.

>      <<< Note 2098.13 by NETCAD::MORRISON "Bob M. LKG2-A/R5 226-7570" >>>
>1. Smoking on school property is prohibited when school is in session, or
>within an hour before the school day begins or an hour after the school day
>ends.

What would this law be intended to protect?
If it's to shield young people from the effects of smoke and smoking,
then these time restrictions are meaningless.
The high school in my town opens for business before 7:00am and doesn't
normally close until 11:00pm, and students are in the building literally
all day long.  Class time is roughly 8:00-3:00, but even in the evenings
there are athletic events, club meetings, project work, band and play 
rehearsals, band and play performances, yearbook meetings, the operation
of the school radio station, and even service provision for adult meetings
(like selling refreshments at Town Meeting).

Smoking may be legal but it's still dangerous and irritating.
It's time to stop condoning and supporting the practice in public
and past time to implement and enforce protective restrictions.

(And to Jim's post-surgical points, if a doctor wants to prescribe
caffiene or nicotine or morphine for post-surgical patients, that's
up to the doctor and the patients, as long as the caffiene and morphine
aren't in the hospital's food and water and the nicotine's not in the air.)

- tom]

>What would this law be intended to protect?
>If it's to shield young people from the effects of smoke and smoking,
>then these time restrictions are meaningless.

  I concede that a law allowing adults to smoke outdoors on school grounds
during off hours would make prohibiting smoking by students during off
hours more difficult because the enforcers, seeing people far away on the
grounds smoking, would not be able to immediately determine if the smokers
were over 21 and therefore might not pursue the matter, whereas under the
current law, the authorities seeing someone smoking on school property would
know that it was a violation, whether the smoker was an adult or not, so
might be more inclined to approach the smokers and tell them to stop.
  The predominant mindset in MA is to vigorously discourage ALL smoking by 
people of all ages. This being the case, it's almost a sure thing that the
existing ban on smoking on school property will remain in its current form.
However, this law may be used as a precedent to prohibit smoking at other
outdoor places frequented by minors, such as town-owned recreation areas.
I hope the people passing these laws are clear on whether their first
priority is to prevent minors from smoking or to prevent everyone from
smoking. There is a difference between these two goals.

    Actually, I hope the goal is to (a) prevent minors from smoking, and
    (b) prevent non-smokers from being exposed to second hand smoke.  It
    may be a subtle difference in application, but I think its a major
    difference in principle.
    
    I think it would be wonderful if no one smoked.  Not for personal
    reasons, but for the same reason I think it would be wonderful if no
    one was ever killed or injured in a car accident.  My simplistic belief
    is that smoking degrades your life style and shortens your life.  But
    except for the thorny health care issue, I have to defend a smoker's
    right to smoke, as long as they are courteous and don't force me to
    share their practice.
    
    If nothing else, it sounds like this case could be improved by putting
    up a street light, and perhaps a crosswalk and some reflectors, which
    would like benefit more than just smokers.
    
    jeb
    

  Most schools that are on busy highways already have a clearly marked cross-
walk out front. The problem is that people going down the highway at night
don't expect to encounter people crossing the crosswalk, and the school zone
speed limit signs are not flashing, so they are likely to go fast.
  The problem is not just that of crossing a busy highway, but the general
idea of people having to walk 1000 feet or more outside after dark on ice and
snow.
  Ideally, schools should have good outdoor lighting wherever people might walk
after dark, but in practice many school districts are financially strapped and
can't afford this.

"Prevent minors from smoking"??

I'm almost positive you meant "prevent minors from smoking in that 
immediate area, which accounts for approximately .000001% of the 
places that they CAN and WILL smoke".

    I'm sure times have changed, but when I was in high school, I'd bet
    that the MAJORITY of smoking that kids did was on the school grounds,
    in the buildings, on the buses, before school, after school, during
    school, at the games, on class trips, you name it.  I'm pretty certain
    that it was against school policy then, although I'd also bet that the
    teacher's lounge was an exception.
    
    The rules were to provide a disincentive (which is what I should have
    said in my earlier note), but a lot of the kids felt it was "safer"
    (that is, they could get away with it) in school than at home or in
    their parent's car.
    
    Even though there may be reasons for permitting smoking on school
    grounds at certain times, it clearly sends the wrong message.
    
    jeb