Conference rdvax::grateful

I'm going to be annoying ;^) and first ask ... how do people define "spiritual?"
Maybe that should be included in answers to John's question.

Myself, I have a hard time with the word.  It seems connected to the concept
of a soul and/or some type of intelligent, in-our-image supreme being.  I don't
believe in either.  But I'm sure people have differing thoughts on what the
word means, and I'd like to hear them ....

- Dave

>  I was getting a real kick out of where the TV note went.  It is
>obvious, TV leads to drugs!!!  ;-)


   	whattaya mean john? TV doesn't LEAD to drugs, TV IS a drug,
	no doubt about it...

	Debess

I'll be typing in some quotes for some food for thought.  I agree with
Mary that it is up to each individual to decide but here is what some
people I respect (including shamans) have found out for themselves.

From Krishamurti, "You Are The World"

...

Most of us, I am afraid, are terribly jealous, envious and possesive.
When you love someone, your girlfriend, your wife or your husband, you
are determined to hold onto them for the rest of your life; at least
you try to.  And you call that "love" - he os she is "mine".  And when
"the mine" looks away or looks at another, becomes somewhat
independant, then there is fury, jealousy and anxiety, then all the
misery of what is called love begins.

Now, what is it to love without a shadow of a doubt?  No doubt, you
would consider it impossible, you would consider it inhuman, if fact
superhuman - so, to you it is impossible.  If you see the
impossibility  of that, then you will find out what is possible in
relationship.  I hope I am making myself clear.  That is the first
point.

Secondly, our life, as it is now, is struggle, pain, pleasure, fear,
anxiety, uncertainty, despair, war, hatred - you know what out
everyday living actually is, the competition, the destruction, the
disorder.  This is actually what is taking place, not what "should be"
or "what ought to be"; we are only concerned with *what* is.  So,
seeing all this, we say to ourselves:  "It's too awful, I must escape
from it!  I want a wider, more extensive vision.  I want to become
more sensitive."  Therefore, we take drugs.

This quesiton of drugs is very old; they have been taking drugs in
India for thousands of years.  At one time it was called soma, now it
is hashish and pan; they haven't reached the highly sophisticated
level of LSD, but they probally will very soon now.  People take
hashish and pan in order to become less sensitive; they get lost in
the perfume of it, in the different vision it produces and
accentuates.  These drugs were generally taken by laborers, the manual
workers (here you do not "untouchables" as they are called in India).
They have drugs because their lives are dreadfully dull; they have not
much food, so they haven't much energy.  The only two things they have
are sex and drugs.

The truly religious person, the person who really wants to find out
what the truth is, what life is - not from books, not from religiuos
entertainers, not from philosophers who only stimulate intellectually
- such a person will have nothing whatsoever to do with drugs, because
he or she knows full well that they distort the mind, making it
incapable of finding out what truth is.

Here in the Western world many people are resorting to drugs.  There
are the serious ones who have taken it experimentally for perhaps a
couple of years, some of whom have come to see me.  They have said:
"We have some experience which appear - from what we have read in
books - to resemble the ultimate reality, to be a shadow of the real."
And because they are serious people, as the speaker is, they have
discussed this problem deeply; ultimately they have been forced to
admit that the experience is very spuriuos, that is has nothing
whatsoever to do with the ultimate reality, with all the beauty of
that immensity.  Unless a mind is clear, wholesome, and completley
healthy, it cannot possibly be in a state of religous meditation which
is absolutely essential to discover that thing which is beyond all
thought, beyond all desire.  Any from of psychological dependance, any
kind of escape, through drink, through drugs, in an attempt to make
the mindmore sensitive merely dulls and distorts it.

When you discard all that - as one must if one is at all serious - you
are faced with living inwardly alone.  Then you are not depending on
anything or anybody, on any drug, on any book, or on any belief.  Only
then is the mind unafraid, only then can you ask the purpose of life.
And if you come to that point, would you ask such a question?  The
purpose of life is to live - not in the utter chaos and confusion we
call living - but to live in  an entirely different way, to live a
life that is full, to live a life that is complete, to live that way
today.  That is the true meaning of life - to live, not heroically,
but to live so completely inwardly, without fear, without struggle and
the rest of the misery.

	john, I hate to argue with a master but the point I would
	like to make here is that Krishamurti talks of "the untouchables"
	using drugs out of boredom and/or to avoid the awfullness of
	their world.
	I would venture to suggest that some/much of the psychedelic
	drug usage is not done for these reasons - that they have
	in a way opened up the users' minds in ways never before
	perceived and have acted as vehicles to further explore
	that vast realm.  For some, psychedelics have acted as
	a catalyst to other methods; for others they have become
	a tool unto themselves.  And certainly, without a doubt,
	for some, they are just plain fun and they are the end - 
	and not the means to an end...

>Unless a mind is clear, wholesome, and completley
>healthy, it cannot possibly be in a state of religous meditation which
>is absolutely essential to discover that thing which is beyond all
>thought, beyond all desire.  

	Is this the only way?  (I don't know)

	Debess

re:         <<< Note 149.6 by OCTOBR::GRABAZS "black dirt live again!" >>>

Yes, Debess, that is the way I see it also and is true in my personal
experience.

		Dave

    I think that there are those who more easily follow the way another
    has found and others who must find their own way.

    I mean no disrespect to you, John... but I personally do not particularly 
    respect Krishamurti any more than I would any other man, nor would I 
    follow him, nor do I believe as he does.

    His attitude towards the "untouchables" smacks of prejudice to me.

    His dogmatic opinions regarding what constitutes a religious person 
    and what truth is are really only another man's opinions.... and this
    of course is merely another woman's opinions. :-)

    Drugs have been used since the dawn of time by shaman and witches
    and seekers of Truth.  Drugs are not from out of space.  They are natural
    elements to this planet and to humankind.  

    Perhaps you believe that Krishamurti is some kind of enlightened 
    individual who has control of Truth and who is invested with the
    divine task of deciding who is a true seeker and who is not... but
    to me he is just another guy with a funny name spouting the same
    old control stuff from a different angle.  I don't mean to offend
    you, John... I'm not into organized religions and all of them claim
    to hold a patent on the Truth, you know?  Some say we'll go to hell
    if we don't agree with them, and others say we are not truly religious
    people if we don't agree with them... it all adds up to the same thing
    to me and I still don't agree. :-)

    mary

    
    I agree with you for the most part, Marv.... including your comments
    on synthetic drugs.
    
    I believe you misunderstood me on one point though.  "Because
    they are there naturally" is not given as a reason to use drugs.. 
    it is merely an observation on their nature.  
    
    mary     

re:  <<< Note 149.10 by XCUSME::MACINTYRE >>>
    
>    Now the big question:  Can drugs help improve our spiritual nature?
>    Maybe.  I say maybe because for some folks responsible drug use helps
>    strip away the enormous amount of clutter our minds collect each and
>    every day.  Stripping away the clutter, even if its just temporary, may
>    help a person get closer to the basic issues of cooperation,
>    compassion, trust, and responsibility to all things.

Well, I don't know if drugs actually strip away the clutter so much as hide
it.  For some people, it may appear the same, but it really isn't.  Drugs
will negate the effects of meditation more than enhance it.

I agree with the idea of connectivity relating to the spirit.  That's the
approach the American Indians take to the world - that we are all connected
to everything else in the universe, so everything we do will effect every-
thing else in the universe to some degree, with the things closest to us
effected the most.

peace,
t!ng

    The American Indians use drugs in their sacred ceremonies... peyote for
    one.

    I question the wisdom of putting the word "drug" in the title of a
    note. If the thought police print out directories of notes conferences
    it could get us into trouble.
    
    John

re:                      <<< Note 149.14 by DECWET::HAMBY >>>

>    If the thought police print out directories of notes conferences
>    it could get us into trouble.

If there *are* thought police, I think we're in trouble anyway.

		Dave

    Presumably John, you have never taken drugs. Therefore, right or wrong,
    you are not in a good position to evaluate the experiences (are you
    experienced :-) others have had.
    
    but anyway,... I'll add my 2 cents to the question of whether drugs
    are or can be a spiritual path.
    
    No,.. they are not the path. But they can be the thing that makes you
    aware that there is something (enlightenment?,.. truth?, wisdm?) to
    pursue. They can be the thing that makes someone realize that they are
    caught in a rut, and have been ignoring a basic part of themselves,
    that being their spirit. Once having been awakened to these
    possibilities, free will (drug induced or not) takes over,.. and the
    person can make a conscious decision to pursue,. to embark upon the
    path. They may even take drugs "along the way" for whatever reason,
    but I do not believe that drugs will lead you to enlightenment in and
    of themselves. I do not belive that taking more drugs means you will
    become elightened sooner/faster.
    
    	Of course, different drugs have differnt effects, and some may
    bring the user valuable consciousness rasing experiences
    (LSD,MJ,Peyote, etc),.. while others may only be so harmful and addictive 
    that they really are not helping at all (PCP,heroin,crack etc.) So the 
    generalization that "drugs are spiritually helpful" can never be true
    IMHO. The statements "LSD/MJ/Peyote/??? can be spiritually helpful"
    I might be more prone to accept. Given that I only think a small
    handful of drugs are actually "questionably" spiritually helpful, then
    I find fault in the statement that drugs are or can be a spiritual
    path. I'd have to ask immediately what drugs we are talking about.
    Nicotine? Alcohol? Heroin? no way. LSD? MJ?,.. maybe. I know that they
    have affected some people in the positive consciousness rasinig ways I
    described above. But they are just the catalyst in my opinion,.. just
    the thing that opened these peoples eyes wide enough so they could
    see what they already knew,.. so thay could finally accept what they
    already know to be true, That they do have a spirit, and that there
    is more "out there" than the four dimensional workd as we are able to
    percieve via our senses.
    
    	Am I making any sense?
    
    								/
    

    
    I think you are making sense /.
    
    Linking consciousness with the plant kingdom, when done in a 
    ritualistic and respectful manner, opens the mind to a different 
    perspective
    
    It's difficult to follow the shaman's path in our modern society though.
    
    mary

RE:     <<< Note 149.16 by STAR::SALKEWICZ "It missed... therefore, I am " >>>
                      -< just say no to generalizations >-

>    Presumably John, you have never taken drugs. Therefore, right or wrong,
>    you are not in a good position to evaluate the experiences (are you
>    experienced :-) others have had.

Slash, I stated in other notes that this is not the case.  

    
>    	Of course, different drugs have differnt effects, and some may
>    bring the user valuable consciousness rasing experiences
>    (LSD,MJ,Peyote, etc),.. while others may only be so harmful and addictive 
>    that they really are not helping at all (PCP,heroin,crack etc.) So the 
>    generalization that "drugs are spiritually helpful" can never be true
>    IMHO. The statements "LSD/MJ/Peyote/??? can be spiritually helpful"
>    I might be more prone to accept. Given that I only think a small
>    handful of drugs are actually "questionably" spiritually helpful, then
>    I find fault in the statement that drugs are or can be a spiritual
>    path. I'd have to ask immediately what drugs we are talking about.
>    Nicotine? Alcohol? Heroin? no way. LSD? MJ?,.. maybe. I know that they
>    have affected some people in the positive consciousness rasinig ways I
>    described above. But they are just the catalyst in my opinion,.. just
>    the thing that opened these peoples eyes wide enough so they could
>    see what they already knew,.. so thay could finally accept what they
>    already know to be true,
    
I agree with this for the most part and I beleive I pretty much stated
as much in another note (the meditation note).  

I was referring to psycoactive drugs like marijuana, LSD, peyote,
mescaline and pslocybin I started this string with a note of mary's so
I'm not sure what she was referring to.

By the way, The title of note is Drugs As A Spiritual Path? so I was
not making a claim that drugs are a spiritual path.

You state that drugs can be a way to perceive that is more out there
than our four senses perceive.  This is an interesting question.
What does it mean for there to be something out there and something in
here?  What is before in here and out there?

RE:  <<< Note 149.9 by HKFINN::STANLEY "What a long strange trip it's been..." >>>

>    I think that there are those who more easily follow the way another
>    has found and others who must find their own way.

>    I mean no disrespect to you, John... but I personally do not particularly 
>    respect Krishamurti any more than I would any other man, nor would I 
>    follow him, nor do I believe as he does.

Well, mary, a big part of Krishamurti's message was that there is no
authority.  If you are saying that I follow someone's else, you
are wrong and I would appreciate it if you not make conjectures about
me.  However, I would be happy to answer any questions you might have.

But to get back to Krishamurti's words, he frequently stated that what
he said was to be verified and or not verified by each individual
listenor.  

Unfortunatley or perhaps you would say fortunately I don't have time
to type in more so you got only a piece.  If one had a belief, an
idea, an investment in drug practices, how would one react when someone
questions their use?  Is there true listening with an open mind?  I
can't answer that question nor do I want to.  But it is something I
try and ask myself whenever my own ideas and beliefs are challenged.

Anyways, I guess I can see how you may have perceived this piece of
writing as dogmatic.  

>    Drugs have been used since the dawn of time by shaman and witches
>    and seekers of Truth.  Drugs are not from out of space.  They are natural
>    elements to this planet and to humankind.  

Well, there are alot of natural elements on this planet.  A lot of
them are poisonous.  So I personally don't find this argument very
convincing.  Also, could you support the statement that drugs have
been used since the dawn of time by shamans and witches and seekers
of truth?  (If you care to discuss it).  What are you referring to
here?

From what I know about Native American religious practices, the use of
peyote is confined to certain tribes and is a relatively new
phenomenon (for example, the Native American Church which uses peyote
I beleive started this century).  Also, because people have done
things in the past, so what?  Can we discuss the issues and
experiences that are relevant to the question at hand (if you are
interested).  

I know in the Lakata shamanic tradition, peyote is not used (I'll type
in some quotes later).  No drugs are needed according to this
tradition.  


>    Perhaps you believe that Krishamurti is some kind of enlightened 
>    individual who has control of Truth and who is invested with the
>    divine task of deciding who is a true seeker and who is not...

Again, mary, I'd appreciate if you did not speculate on my beliefs.

>    to me he is just another guy with a funny name spouting the same
>    old control stuff from a different angle.  I don't mean to offend
>    you, John... I'm not into organized religions and all of them claim
>    to hold a patent on the Truth, you know?  Some say we'll go to hell
>    if we don't agree with them, and others say we are not truly religious
>    people if we don't agree with them... it all adds up to the same thing
>    to me and I still don't agree. :-)

No offense, mary, but Krishamurti was about as far as you could get
from an organized religion.  I think you are right to question dogma
however from Krishamurti or anyone else.  However, if your aim is to
influence me, then I need to see you address the issues he has raised
in a substative fashion.

john

re: <<< Note 149.13 by HKFINN::STANLEY "What a long strange trip it's been..." >>>

>The American Indians use drugs in their sacred ceremonies... peyote for one.
    
    I believe that the preferred method for Native Americans to find their
    personal spiritual path is by Vision Quest. In any case, being of Native 
    American descent on both sides of my family, this is my preferred method. 
    Mind altering natural substances are not needed and, believe me, I do not
    recommend mixing the two.
    
    	Ger_who's_due_for_another_VQ__but_hasn't_picked_his_new_Place_yet

    OK John
    
    	I dodn't mean to imply that you were the one promoting a notion
    that drugs are a spiritual path. (Obviously you would not promote
    such an idea... I already know that form knowing you) I apologize
    for any persoanl taint I threw in there,.. none was meant. I was trying
    to treat the question as an object,.. not as John H's belief. I'll
    try to be real careful about that,.. but I stilkl don't see where you
    got that idea. For my own edification, and in hopes that I won;t do it
    to you again, maybe you could point out where you saw that I was
    addressing the question as your personal belief.
    
    	Anyway,. I didin't reealize that you had,.,.. um er...well
    anyway,.. those danged thought police have got me nervous anyway.
    But OK,.. so we're talking about the right kinds of drugs here.
    So anyway,.,. like I already said,. I don't think they are the path,..
    nor that thaey can really be a good path. I do believe that they can be 
    the catalyst to make someone realize that they are caught up in soime
    bogus rut that has them denying their own spirituality.
    
    	re out there vs in here
    
    	First of all John,. don't take anything out of context. To those
    like yourslef, who are spiritually conscious,.. there is no "out there"
    or "in here". You are likely to view the world physical and spiritul
    as one world. The concept of out there applies to people who are not
    even aware of the spiritual world. It is for people who can not
    understand or deny (consciously or subconsciously) that there is
    something beyond the physical world. It is the spiritual world that
    is "out there" to these people. To me,.. its not "out there" because
    these people to me are only fooling themselves in their denial. But
    these are the kinds of people who I say need to be awakened to what is
    "out there". Once they are awakened,.. they will realize that there is
    really no difference between ouit there and in here. Thats because they
    will have finally accepted that they are part of that spiritual world
    too,.. and that too just becomes what is,.. and no longer what is out
    there or in here.
    
    	Kabish?
    
    							/
    

From Lame Deer Seeker of Visions, by John (Fire) Lame Deer and Richard
Erdoes.  Lame Deer is a holy man, shaman, and healer of the Sioux
tribe.


I was a peyoter for six years.  After that I quit it.  It was a dead
end, a box canyon and I had to find my way out of it.  I don't want to
talk down this peyote cult.  In many Indian tribes they have people
beleiving in this medicine.  Grandfather peyote brings many people
together, not only as members of this cult but as Indians and that is
good.  Some tribes have had peyote for so long that it has become
their main and only religion.  Many people have forgotten their own
beliefs, which the missionaries stamped out, and the only thing left
is peyote.  It is the only Indian belief they know.  But for us Sioux
it is something fairly new, different from our belief in the Great
Spirit and the sacred pipe.  Slowly I came to beleive that I should
not mix these two beliefs, confuse them with another.  I felt that the
time had come to choose - the pipe or the peyote.  I choose the pipe.

At the time I quit peyote I found out what a real Sioux vision is
like.  If you dream, that's no vision.  Anybody can have a dream,  And
if you take an herb - well, even the butcher boy at his meat counter
will have a vision after eating peyote.  The real vision has to come
out of your own juices.  It is not a dream; it is very real.  It hits
you sharp and clear like an electric shock.  You are wide awake and
suddenly there is a person standing next to you who you know can't be
there at all.  Or someboby is sitting close by, and all at once you
see him also up on a hill a half mile away.  Yet you are not dreaming;
your eyes are open.  You have to work for this,  *empty your mind for
it*.  [My emphasis.]

Peyote is for the poor people.  It helps them get out of their
despair, gives them something to grab hold of, but I couldn't stop
there, I had to go further.  Once you have experienced the real thing
you will never be satisfied with anything else.  It will be all or
nothing for you then.

re:                      <<< Note 149.20 by SA1794::GLADUG >>>

>    I believe that the preferred method for Native Americans to find their
>    personal spiritual path is by Vision Quest. 
              ^^^^^^^^^
    Correction... Probably "spirit" path is a better term.
    
    - Gerry

  I notice that the ones claiming drugs are not needed are the ones that 
actually practice some form of meditation on a regular basis successfully.  
Is that a true observation?

  I also get the feeling, that although none of us in here use drugs now, that 
those same people aren't saying they haven't enjoyed using herbal substances in
the past, but that it is not necessary for enlightenment and expansion.  Is that
true???



  john 

re:  <<< Note 149.20 by SA1794::GLADUG >>>

>    I believe that the preferred method for Native Americans to find their
>    personal spiritual path is by Vision Quest. In any case, being of Native 

Hi, Ger, can you tell me more about this Vision Quest??  I'm always 
intrigued by American Indian beliefs and American Indians too (which
might mean I'll have to study you closely next time I see you 8-).

peace,
t!ng

Vision quests typically involve going out to the woods for 4 days and
nights without food or water or company.  It is usually undertaken as
part of a tribal religous tradition.  See Fool's Crow,  Black Elk
Speaks, Black Elk - Sacred Ways of the Lakota, or Lame Deer (mentioned
in an earlier note) for reading matierial on the subject.

john

    re -.1
    
    see also the old Kung Fu episode where the indian dude was on a vision 
    quest and ran into Kwai Chang Kane....  imagine HIM for a
    spirit-helper!  :^)
    
    				da ve

RE:     <<< Note 149.21 by STAR::SALKEWICZ "It missed... therefore, I am " >>>
                                -< booga booga >-

All points understood captain!

john

RE:<<< Note 149.24 by OURGNG::RYAN "Spent my life seeking all that's still unsung" >>>
                      -< seems anything could interfere >-



>  I notice that the ones claiming drugs are not needed are the ones that 
>actually practice some form of meditation on a regular basis successfully.  
>Is that a true observation?

True for me but I can't speak for anyone else.

>  I also get the feeling, that although none of us in here use drugs now, that 
>those same people aren't saying they haven't enjoyed using herbal substances in
>the past, but that it is not necessary for enlightenment and expansion.  Is that
>true???

I guess I would agree with this although I wouldn't use enjoy for all
the experiences of the past especially alcohol!  ;-)

RE:                    <<< Note 149.10 by XCUSME::MACINTYRE >>>

I like your description of hiking.  Everything really is
interconnected, isn't it?  Even these words?  Without your mind to
read them and mine to write them, without the matierials from this
screen which was produced by probally thousands of people (from
engineering to manufacturing to management (OK, let's not go too
far)), the glass and silicon from the earth which were formed from
sun, from gravity, from where we are in the universe.
There's a lot to be thankful for.

thanks,
john

re:                      <<< Note 149.20 by SA1794::GLADUG >>>


>>The American Indians use drugs in their sacred ceremonies... peyote for one.
    
 >   I believe that the preferred method for Native Americans to find their
 >   personal spiritual path is by Vision Quest. In any case, being of Native 
 >   American descent on both sides of my family, this is my preferred method. 
 >   Mind altering natural substances are not needed and, believe me, I do not
 >   recommend mixing the two.
    
   I've read about VQ's long ago, and my understanding of them is that they
are merely Hallucinations induced by starvation, and dehydration.
Which can be just as harmful as using peyote. Either way, IMO, you have 
achieved nothing on your own, some type of vehicle assisted you in getting 
to the end result. 

 BTW I have a bit of Native American blood in veins. The Micmac tribe to be 
precise. 

Shawn

ps Ger, is there any current (updated) reading material on the subject? 

Note 149.19               
VIA::HEFFERNAN 


>>    I mean no disrespect to you, John... but I personally do not particularly 
>>    respect Krishamurti any more than I would any other man, nor would I 
>>    follow him, nor do I believe as he does.

>Well, mary, a big part of Krishamurti's message was that there is no
>authority.  If you are saying that I follow someone's else, you
>are wrong and I would appreciate it if you not make conjectures about
>me.  However, I would be happy to answer any questions you might have.

    I was not saying anything about you at all, John.  I was telling you
    how *I* viewed Krishamurti.  I see his "message" differently than
    you apparently see it.  Not finding Krishamurti to be a source of
    inspiration doesn't mean that I am making "conjectures" about you.

>Unfortunately or perhaps you would say fortunately I don't have time
>to type in more so you got only a piece.  If one had a belief, an
>idea, an investment in drug practices, how would one react when someone
>questions their use?  

    One would probably not react at all.  One would probably not care what
    others thought about what one did.  One would have to have developed
    such an attitude to have reached this point within a society such as
    ours.

    >Is there true listening with an open mind?  

    I think so.

    >I can't answer that question nor do I want to.  But it is something I
>try and ask myself whenever my own ideas and beliefs are challenged.

    Your ideas are not being challenged however, John... unless you view
    the practices of others as a challenge to your own personal way of
    life.  Do you think we must all be exactly the same?

>Anyways, I guess I can see how you may have perceived this piece of
>writing as dogmatic.  

    Well... whenever anyone states 'this is the only way' ... the hairs on
    the back of my neck stand up. :-)

>Well, there are alot of natural elements on this planet.  A lot of
>them are poisonous.  So I personally don't find this argument very
>convincing.  Also, could you support the statement that drugs have
>been used since the dawn of time by shamans and witches and seekers
>of truth?  (If you care to discuss it).  What are you referring to
>here?

    Lets understand something, John.   I'm not trying to "convince" you.
    You started this note, not me.  I have no desire whatsoever to convert
    anyone to anything.

    However, peyote, mushrooms, and MJ have been used since the dawn of
    time by shaman and witches... among other substances.  MJ seeds have
    been found in Cro-Magnon archaeological sites.  Literature is filled
    with references to the use of various plants in magical work.

>From what I know about Native American religious practices, the use of
>peyote is confined to certain tribes and is a relatively new
>phenomenon (for example, the Native American Church which uses peyote
>I beleive started this century).  

    Perhaps the *church* (as an organization) "started" in this century, 
    but peyote use certainly didn't.  Read the text you entered yourself 
    previously.

    >Also, because people have done things in the past, so what?  Can we 
    >discuss the issues and experiences that are relevant to the question 
    >at hand (if you are interested).  

    John.. :-) ... first you say it wasn't done in the past and then you
    say "so what if it was"...   The fact that it has always been done 
    indicates (to me) that it is a strange attractor or a normal pattern
    of human behavior FOR CERTAIN PEOPLE who use the plants as a spiritual
    link to other worlds of consciousness.  This fact *is* relevant to the
    question at hand.

>I know in the Lakata shamanic tradition, peyote is not used (I'll type
>in some quotes later).  No drugs are needed according to this
>tradition.  

    In the words of John Heffernan... so what? :-)  

>Again, mary, I'd appreciate if you did not speculate on my beliefs.

    John... if you don't believe Krishamurti to be an enlightened
    individual then why post his words to support you?

>No offense, mary, but Krishamurti was about as far as you could get
>from an organized religion.  

    I disagree with this one too.  He isn't as far as *I* can get from
    an organized religion. :-) ... not by a long shot. :-)

    >I think you are right to question dogma however from Krishamurti or 
    >anyone else.  However, if your aim is to influence me, then I need to 
    >see you address the issues he has raised in a substative fashion.

    John, John, John ... what in the world ever gave you the impression 
    that I had an "aim" to "influence" you?

    I have no desire whatsoever to influence you, John.... absolutely none.

    My only interest is in seeing to it that we, as a nation, regain our
    perspective and our tolerance for the right of others to make their
    own choices.

    Mary

My spiritual path has been a mixed bag of meditation, substance ingestion :-),
drumming, chanting and reading.  I haven't found any to be any better or worse
than any other.  It all depends on the circumstances and my needs at the time. 
I can't quote any experts, I only really know what I've experienced.  I will
continue with the mixed bag indefinitely.  I'll probably even mix it up a
little more. :-)

		Dave

RE: From Krishamurti, "You Are The World"

>seeing all this, we say to ourselves:  "It's too awful, I must escape
>from it!  I want a wider, more extensive vision.  I want to become
>more sensitive."  Therefore, we take drugs.

I do not agree with this at all.  Why do does someone prefer a woman with 
long brown hair?  Why does someone enjoy driving a fast car?  Why does someone
enjoy music over TV?  Why does someone like to hike?  Why does someone
enjoy meditation?  Why does someone like a particular type of food?

The answer, as I see it, is these "pleasures" either produce a state of 
happiness, satisfy one's soul, or yield a state of enjoyment.  Every person
has their own definition of enjoyment and pleasure.  I find it rather unlikely
that any two people share the same exact pleasures.

Perhaps this is the case with drug use.  Someone might experiment with a given
drug and find that it is something they do not enjoy.  Others might experience
the opposite and continue using a drug.  Some people might find temporary
enjoyment from a drug's effect for some specified amount of time, then simply
grow out of it.  Others may continue using a drug for their lifetime.

re:        <<< Note 149.35 by BIODTL::FERGUSON "the rainbow has a beard" >>>
                         -< what is pleasure to you? >-

Good points, JC.

		Dave

    
    Different people from different traditions approach the question of
    their own personal spirituality differently.  America is a country
    of all different kinds of people... different nationalities, different
    religious beliefs, different social customs.  The glue that holds
    us all together is a respect for the rights of each of us to make our
    own personal choices regarding our beliefs.
    
    It doesn't matter how we find the light...  
    Its when we start trying to force each other to follow only a particular 
    path that we threaten the binding principles of the system that gives us 
    all the freedom to pursue the light each in our own way.
    
    	... thats what I think today anyway... :-) 
    
    mary

re:     <<< Note 149.32 by DASXPS::BRIDGES "counting stars by candlelight" >>>

>I've read about VQ's long ago, and my understanding of them is that they
>are merely Hallucinations induced by starvation, and dehydration.
    
    I generally eat, although very lightly, as well as consume water and/or
    herb teas during my quests. I found that intense fasting (not starvation, 
    mind you) isn't really essential for me to achieve results. In fact, it 
    rarely takes me more than 24 hours - hardly enough time to starve or 
    dehydrate. It's basically a prolonged and more intense version of my
    "normal" form of meditation. Your actual milage may vary. :-)
    
    As for up to date literature on vision quests, can't help you there,
    there's really nothing up to date about them.
  
    - Ger

re:                      <<< Note 149.39 by SA1794::GLADUG >>>
   

>    As for up to date literature on vision quests, can't help you there,
>    there's really nothing up to date about them.
  
  I was speaking more in a historical perspective.  The reading I had done
many years ago could be historically incorrect. I figured maybe the subject 
has been more thoroughly researched in recent years. 

 Who knows maybe Nat. Geographic will touch upon the subject someday soon.

Shawn

RE: <<< Note 149.38 by DICKNS::STANLEY "What a long strange trip it's been..." >>>

>    It doesn't matter how we find the light...  
>    Its when we start trying to force each other to follow only a particular 
>    path that we threaten the binding principles of the system that gives us 
>    all the freedom to pursue the light each in our own way.

YES !  I really get annoyed when someone tells me I should go to church, or
believe in this, or do that for God's sake.  Let me choose my own way of
serving my God, that is, if I choose to serve at all.

Likewise for other things in my life.  If I want to let my hair grow, I don't
want people telling me not to.  Long hair on *me* does not hurt anybody!  

I don't think anyone in this topic has been trying to *force* anyone else
to change their behavior, etc.  I believe John is suggesting that people
would be better off not doing drugs, and practicing meditation.  He has
every right to suggest that.  He believes drugs are unhealthy, and I respect
him for voicing his opinions, as it is out of concern for our well-being.

my 2 cents

- peace
  Dave

    
    
    Re .42
    
    What Dave said....
    
    I think the issue here hasn't been very clear to everyone, and that has
    caused the friction in this discussion.  I guess "not clear" isn't
    really accurate......more like each person has their own issue, and
    others have been discussing and arguing on a different issue.
    
    Personally, I appreciate what message John has been trying to get
    across.....and I agree with it.
    
    Dave