Conference mr1pst::music

    
    I have read that the issue of "accent" was a point of contention
    within the Beatles. During their early years, they were persuaded
    to hide their Liverpool pronunciations. John thought this was
    artistic interference and Paul thought it was a good business tactic.
    
    /Billy_K

    I think is because it is all English. Would you say Julio Iglesias
    has an accent when he sings?
    

    re .2, yes, but that doesn't explain why they almost all sound
    American.
    
    Lorna
    

    On our cable television channels we got some stations that have shows
    in French, Spanish and some Italian.  When I hear Julio sing it very
    obvious to me that he has an accent ... and is the case when I watch
    the variety shows in French.  
    
    I am trying to think of some American's who, perhaps, have thick
    Southern accents - Elvis, Dolly Parton, Loretta Lynn that do not
    sing in with a southern drawl.  Even Mel Tillis - who stutters when
    he talks - does NOT stutter when he sings.
    
    M
    
    
    

    I don't think it's so much bands adopting American accents, just that
    most artists accents seem to fade when they sing, so they all sound
    alike (I would argue with the fact that Eric Clapton sounds American!)
    Possible exceptions to this are wotsisname out of REM and Jimmy
    Nail...
    
    Chris.

    Meanwhile in the "we don't sing with American accents" department
    you can find a fine little posse of eccentric British pop groups:
    The Kinks, The Jam, The Fall, The Cure, The Smiths, The Sex Pistols,
    XTC, Madness, The Small Faces, Roxy Music, Mott the Hoople, Jethro
    Tull to name but a few. Guaranteed no mid Atlantic drawl. 
    
    ^)   
    
    barry.                                                   
    

    ...oh I don't know (re:  Eric Clapton).  I have many of his tapes
    and I just got his new CD (Unplugged) and he does NOT have a
    British accent - accept when he speaks.  
    
    I guess my question is "why do their accents fade when they sing"?
    
    

    What I wanna know is where Spruce Springteen gets that Southern Drawl
    all the way up there in NJ.  I just don't get it.... (oops wrong note).
    
    -Jesse

    Presumably they're taught to sing without an accent.  Not too sure why,
    perhaps it's so that more people can understand what they're singing
    about!  (with the exception of Muttley McLad, where it's better for all
    concerned NOT to be able to understand him!! :-) )
    
    To look at things the other way, from the sound of the vocalist there's
    been a number of bands which I've been surprised to discover are
    American and not British!
    
    Chris

    One thing you may want to bear in mind is that many of the artists that
    you are referring to are performing a style of music that is blues-based 
    (Jagger, Clapton) or rhythm-n-blues (Springsteen, S.Easton).  This
    music originated in the American south, and so they are most likely
    emulating the inflections and pronunciations of the originators of this
    genre.  Much of C+W doesn't sound right without that certain 'twang'
    either (Baillie & The Boys are from NJ, for example).
    
    Another thing that I have noticed is that most singers, whether or not
    they are classically trained, have a singing voice that doesn't sound
    much at all like their speaking voice (that doesn't explain WHY,
    though)..... I think the artists like Billy Bragg who intentionally
    carry their accents into their music do so intentionally, so that is as
    much an affectation as if he were to adopt a C+W twang, IMO.
    
    This is a FASCINATING subject, to me; maybe we can hear from a singer
    of voice coach who can answer this mystery!
    \Gary_who_has_a_2_note_range_but_an_opinion_on_everything  ;7)

    I also wonder if some of it has something to do with the brain and/or
    speech patterns.
    
    I always found it fascinating to hear Mel Tillis (C&W) sing the words
    beautifully ... and clearly pronounced, yet when he speaks he stutters
    and has, to the best of my knowledge, all of his life.  Perhaps in a
    conversing his brain (or thought process) cannot work fast enough to
    translate the idea into words.  Yet, when memorizing the words to a 
    song - he can sing without stuttering.
    
    M
    
    

    re: .11
    
    Perhaps, in a strict neurological sense, singing has very little to do
    with speech.  They may be primarily controlled by different areas of
    the brain, yet still share some faculties.
    
    I have to look in my VCR library, but I recall an early episode of
    the DEC-sponsored Infinite Voyage series, one about the mind, where
    certain people have a disorder that totally disconnects them from what
    is going on right in front of them.  They have no idea who anyone is, 
    but those that were musically trained before the onset of this disorder
    could recall perform flawlessly, both instrumentally and vocally.
    \Gary

    re .5, I thought REM were American!  Aren't they from Georgia?!!
    
    Also, Bruce Springsteen doesn't normally have a Southern drawl.  I
    think he was just acting silly on the 57 Channels and Nuthin on
    recording.  
    
    Lorna
    

    
    When you listen to "you can't always get what you want" very carefully,
    you hear the girls at the background singing
    	- You KONT (the British way)
    and then Mick Jagger comes in and sings
     	- You KANT (the American way)
    
    It always catches my attention everytime I listen to that song.
    
    Weeks ago, I was watching a standup comedian on tv. One of those who
    come to the stage with his guitar and make musical jokes. He had a
    hang up on this topic, Brits singing with American accent. He imitated
    an interview: They are interviewing this English performer and he is
    speaking with heavy English accent and then he starts singing with 
    exaggerated American accent. And then he said "wouldn't it be great if
    American performers shocked the British audience by first speaking in
    heavy Yankee accent and then started singing in British ?". And then
    he imitated that scenario too. His impersonations were very funny.
    
    (He also said that the presence of Keith Richards in the band was
    making Mick Jagger look healthy)
    
    Lale
    who has a very heavy accent speaking AND singing

    re: .14	You Can't Always Get What You Want
    
    I think there's a reason that the "girls' chorus" sounds 'British'.
    
    I don't have my copy of 'Let It Bleed' handy, but if memory (of 23
    years ago) serves, this is a well-known English boys chorale society
    that normally performs classical works, that the Stones hired to sing
    on that cut.  I think it was the producer's way of having a contrast
    between the formality and sound of those voices against Jagger's.
    \Gary

    I don't think you are making it up. They very well may be "boys".
    The point is, the chorus sound British and Jagger sound, I don't know,
    regular. Although they are all British, there is a difference in the
    way they pronounce words. I can't understand why Jagger doesn't sound
    British.
    
    Thanks for the info by the way, hadn't heard that before. It always
    boosts the quality when there is a classical touch. You know, Beatles,
    Procol Harum, they all used symphony orchestras and all that.
    
    Lale
    

    re:.0 
    This same observation has befuddled me for two decades now.
    
    BTW, I saw an interview with Paul McCartney where he recited a lyric,
    and then they showed a clip of him singing it:
    
    Recited version sounded typically liverpuddlian: "I'm fixing a 'ole..."
    
    The sung version sounded very american: "I'm fixing a hole..."
    
    	db

    Another Paul McCartney:
    
    "There were birds, on a hill, but I never soar them winging
    No I never soar them at all , till there was you"

    re .14
    
    I know REM are American!  I was commenting on the fact that the singer
    has a strong American accent, as opposed to the neutral accent
    prevalent in lots of bands these days!
    
    Chris.

Maurice Chevalier had to take accent lesons to maintain his French accent in
English.  When I sing French, because I have memorised the words, my very
heavy mid-Atlantic accent goes away.  Singing is by imitation.

When you study voice, even in your own language you learn to pronounce words
differently than when you speak them.  For example, in English, vowels are held
and drawn out and then the final constant is added only at the end (and
somewhat enunciated so that it is definitely heard.  If you are in the habit
of dropping the final t, vocal music training will put it back in when you sing.
You'll probably still drop it when you speak.

Cheryl

Vera Chook and Dave

    
    I've heard a few explanations for the mysterious disappearing accent -
    one - much like -.2's reply has much to do with the different
    phonetics of singing and speaking.  Another, more cynical explantion,
    says that British singers purposely try to sing with no accent to sell
    more records in the States.  I tend to believe that it has much to do
    with the way the song is learned, practiced and repeated.  One of my
    favortie artists, John Wesley Harding, has a noticable Brit accent when
    he sings - and when I sing along, I find myself also singing with an
    accent (?) - although that probably has more to do with mimicking than
    outright singing.
    
    					-Jimbo

    
    	for those old time british rock-n-rollers i suspect shear imitation
    led to most of it.  Face it, late 50's, early 60's most rock-n-roll
    came from this side of the pond.  You look at a Beatles set-list from
    before aug 62 and you see lot's of R&B, top40 ballads etc.  Seems to
    me in the early 70's we had lots of Murican singers trying to sound
    like Bowie...
    
    bob

    I hear Oakland rappers with Brooklynn accents, obviously imitating
    the east coast sound.....
    
    Or Shabba Ranks, from Jamaica, who is becoming a big star, and nobody
    can even tell what he is saying! Then, Johnny Gill sings along putting
    on an island accent....
    
    

	I read an article somewhere about singing and talking being
	controlled by different portions or the brain. That's why
	Mel Tillis stutters in his speaking voice but not at all when
	he sings...maybe the accent thing has a similar relationship.

    re .25, does that mean that people who can't sing are missing the part
    of the brain that controls that?  :-)
    
    (i'm also missing the part that does math)
    
    Lorna
    

    
    Who could forget the Ramones trying to sound like BritPunks:
    
    Aye, Oeh, Let's Goe!
    
    -Ed

    Cheryl's right in .20 about the difference between singing and speaking
    pronounciation.  Certainly in classical singing, it's a whole different
    way of producing sound than speaking.  Actually, it's common for
    Americans to be trained to sound more "British" by dropping r's, for
    instance.  Vowel sounds are also modified, especially the diphthongs,
    to make them easier, clearer, and prettier to sing.  So singers with
    many different speaking accents will have a much greater similarity of
    singing styles to the extent that they use more classical singing
    techniques.  The goal of prettiness is much different in pop than
    classical music, but ease of singing is still a concern.
    
    It's sort of like the difference between typing and playing the piano -
    you're moving your fingers over keys in both cases, but they are still
    very different sets of motor skills.

    But, how many rocks singers have actually studied singing?
    
    Lorna
    

    Now that we've solved the singing voice mystery, someone needs to
    explain why all of the Hollywood actors and actresses (who grew up in
    Iowa) back in the '30s and '40s spoke in those affected, clipped
    pseudo-British accents when playing upscale genteel 'murican folk...
    
    Maybe that was the standard for stage elocution back then?
    
    It has always had an emetic effect on me.   ;7)
    \Gary

>    explain why all of the Hollywood actors and actresses (who grew up in
>    Iowa) back in the '30s and '40s spoke in those affected, clipped
>    pseudo-British accents when playing upscale genteel 'murican folk...

  Maybe, lingering, recessive Euro-centrism in upscale genteel 'murican
  culture?
  
  Of course, we're way beyond that now.
  
  And now we return to "Masterpiece Theater"....    - Jay


   (Just a glib remark - I enjoy a good wallow in the riches of European
   cultures, esp. musical, myself...)

    re .30, those phony, clipped accents in old movies drive me crazy!  I
    can't stand them!  In real life I have never heard anyone talk like
    that.  One thing I noticed about Clark Gables movies, is that he never
    used that clipped, weird way of talking.  He always talked like a
    normal person, the way actors do today.
    
    Lorna
    

    Did anyone know that when "Gone With the Wind" was casting the
    characters ... Clark Gabel was told he had to play the part of
    Rhett Butler - some studio political move!  He agreed (did he
    have a choice ?) but he said HE WOULD NOT speak with a Southern
    accent.
    
    Watch the movie closely next time - he is the only actor who
    does not speak with a Southern drawl.
    
    
    

    Since we've mentioned Mel Tillis, there's another example that always
    comes to mind on these "singing differently than they talk".
    
    Have you ever heard Jim Nabors, who played Gomer Pyle sing and talk.
    
    My recollection was that the Gomer Pyle accent was "real" - i.e
    he really did talk like that even when he was out of character.
    
    And yet, when he sings he sounds like an English professor.  Not
    even a trace of "Gomerness".

    
  >>  My recollection was that the Gomer Pyle accent was "real" - i.e
  >>  he really did talk like that even when he was out of character.

	I don't think this is the case, Dave.  Anyone else recall?

	Di

Jim Nabors is from Sylacauga, Alabama, if you'll pardon the expression, and I'm
sure he knows how to talk like that, but it may not be completely natural.  My
southern accent, courtesy Valdosta, Georgia, is much stronger when I'm at 
home, with my brothers, or talking on the radio, than it is when I'm just
living my life on the Newton-Nashua axis.

In other words, Jim's accent is natural, but accentuated.

    Hey you Valdostian!  Ever hear of Madison, FL?
    
    

>>In other words, Jim's accent is natural, but accentuated.

	Ah.  Yeah, that sounds right.  I knew I had seen him on talk shows
	and that the accent wasn't anywhere near as pronounced as Gomer's.

	Di
  

Madison, sure, it's on the way from Valdosta to Tallahassee and is also 
famous as the nome of the marvelous Liquid Summer hot sauce.

Oh, right, we say Valdostan.

How come you didn't pop up when I was using Dosta Flash as my p-name?

    You know us Madisonians, we like to kick back and relax no matter what
    is happening.  Truth, I probably didn't notice.  The family has a bit
    of land in Madison and I have spent quite a few summers there.  Did
    quite a bit of roppin in Valdosta, but it also had the closest mall to
    us.  Talahasse is just too far a drive for me.
    
    So, are you like, still in that area.  I am in California right now.
    
    Virginia

Virginia, I am up in the land of the Yankees, Newton, Mass., for living, and Nashua, NH,
for working.

It's not as bad as it could be.  One of my grandparents was a Yankee, and I guess my
wife and kids are too, but I'm a rebel (non-racist version) all the way.

I think a couple of previous replies had it about right.  The pronunciation
and accent are just part of the style and the singers imitate the whole style.
British and Celtic traditional folksingers sing with a definite accent and
when I sing their songs, I have a hard time resisting the accent.

As a native Southerner, I'm really amused that so many folks poke fun at our 
speech, yet so many imitate it or accept it in popular songs without a 
thought.  Y'all better watch out or we'll have y'all converted 'fore yuh
know it.

Ain't y'all Yankees figgered out yet that rock'n'roll is the revenge of the
Confederacy?  :^)

Bob

    
    
    
    If that's your idea of revenge, bring it on!  I ain't had enough, yet.
    
    maximum_southerner_raised_in_the_midwest_John
    
    

    I guess I have to own up to a mistake.  I shouldn't have said Jim
    Nabors really talks like Gomer Pyle in real life.   The Gomer character
    does accentuate certain things.
    
    What I meant to say is that Nabors, to my recollection, does have a 
    pronounced southern accent in real life.