Conference mr1pst::music

    
    Well I was pretty disappointed with Friday's show.
    
    Donald seemed pretty disinterested with the whole affair, Walter
    stumbled through concert banter, but most of all the music was NO WAY
    near as good as it was for last year's Rock and Soul Review.
    
    My opinion is if you saw that last year, you saw Steely Dan, and if you
    saw (Friday's show, anyway), you saw some sort of contractual
    obligation worked out to allow WB and DF to promote solo material.
    
    Don't mean to sound cynical, 'cause I'm not, but when I think of live
    performances of "Chain Lightning," "Deacon Blues," and "My Old School"
    I will be remebering the NY Rock and Soul Review, not this year's tour
    (which, oddly enough, had pretty much the same musicians).
    
    Not only that, the non-Steely Dan stuff at the NYRSR was far funner
    than the non-Steely Dan stuff the other night.  Plus, Donald seemed
    in much better spirits last year, bopping around, playing the wise guy,
    chatting with the audience more (why was Walter doing all the talking
    this year)?  
    
    Maybe it was just the magic of the "first time" last year, where every
    Steely Dan song an unexpected surprise, a gift on a night where all
    sorts of interesting music was being played.  I dunno, but people on
    the SD internet dist list seem to feel the same thing.
    
    - Sean

    
    	re: - 1, "sedimentary"... well, it was a "rock" concert.
    	
    	;^)
    

    Would igneous behavior be more to -.2's liking?
    
    Edd

    re. .116
    
    >>How can one go to a show such as this and be sedimentary is
    beyond me.
    
    There was a big argument in another note in this file about
    people standing up during concerts and blocking the view of
    all the people behind them.  Maybe the 'sedimentary' people
    you refer to are well mannered enough to allow those behind
    them to see what they paid $50 to attend !
    
    how would you react if some of your seatmates sang loudly
    enough for you to miss hearing this concert ?
    
    Willie
    

    
    Bob... go to a disco if you wanna dance! I bop to the music too,
    but I stay seated..
    
    		Jerry
    

    bob's replies remind me of the bumper sticker,
    "if you don't like my driving, stay off the sidewalk"
    
    

    All I can say is that if rock concerts have seats, you're expected to
    sit in them.  Dance floors usually don't have furniture on them  8^)
    
    Once we started having rock "concerts" instead of dances, it was all
    over.  I can understand getting excited and wanting to boogie but a few
    thousand other people also paid for a seat and deserve a view.  
    
    							Brian

    If you're towards the rear of the floor area of a civic center/arena
    venue, people dancing up front cause the people behind them to stand
    which causes the people behind them to stand on their seats which means
    that you either have to stand on you seat or look at someone else's ugly
    butt. AND even if you stand on your seat you can't see the performance
    unless you're over 6 feet tall.

    I can't even tell you how pissed off I've been during otherwise pretty
    good shows. It's a sad commentary on how inconsiderate people in our
    society have become.

 
 
>    Yeah, I guess dancing went out in the '60's.  Those people at Woodstock
>    sure were inconsiderate, weren't they.
 
Dancing has never gone out of style. Neither has courtesy and respect, but
there's always a sub-set of folks who care not a whit about others as long 
as THEY are having fun.

Not having been at Woodstock, I can't comment on the general etiquette of
the crowd. Which is moot. The 60's were a quarter century ago, and those of
us who are old enough to be there learned and grew from it.
 
>   I've been to enough concerts to know that what you are asking for is
>   the exception, not the rule.  

    The replies just in this string show differently. I suspect there's
    many of us who, like me, simply skip the marginal shows due to the
    behavior of the crowd.

>   Until they put "no dancing" on the back
>    of my ticket along with all of the other disclaimers, I'll take it that
>    it's alright to do.  

In spite of the objections of those like me? Your claims of compromise aren't
supported by this statement. You've been told flat out that this behavior is
unacceptable to a variety of folks, yet you continue to insist it's OK. Sure,
it's not illegal, or against the "house rules", but is it in the least bit
considerate? Want to know when it's perfectly OK to stand? When the person
*behind* you does. You'll never have a problem.

>  I might also mention that the Great Woods Security
>    doesn't seem to mind.  And if they think it's o.k., then who are you to
>    say it isn't?

The guy who pays their salary, that's who.

>  You may wish it wasn't, but if the venue allows it, then
>    your beef should be with them and not with the people who choose to dance.
 
When the security guards block my view then my beef will be with them. My 
objection isn't with the dancing, it's with the blocking of my view. 

 >    You can sit.  The seat is still yours.  Sit if you like.

I not only want to hear the music, I want to see the band. Go dance where it
doesn't bother me.
 
>    So, you sat and now you can come in here and pout about it.  If someone
>    were standing in front of me, I'd rather stand and say I saw the show.
 
I'd rather fix the problem, not accomodate it.
   
>    I'm curious.  Did you make an effort to have security make this person
>    in front of you sit down?  

Nope, I went right to the obnoxious person and let him know what the people 
behind him thought of his behavior. 

> I mean if they were doing something wrong, don't you think
>    security would have corrected the situation for you?
 
Frankly, no, the security "force" at those places is pretty useless.
 
>    I get the impression that you've been to enough R&R shows to
>    substantiate my point.  I'm sure this isn't the first time this has
>    happened to you and I'm sure it won't be the last.  As such, perhaps
>    it's time to face up to the fact that you are the one who's expecting
>    too much.
 
Expecting to see the band is too much? Methinks YOU are expecting too much,
as you not only want to see and hear the band, but dance also. Which one of
us is expecting too much? 

>  Should there a maximum height requirement on shows?

Of course not.

>  What's the difference between that and me standing up (at 6'0").  
>    Either way, you don't see the show from your seat.

Your big friend can't help being 6'8". You CAN sit down.

>    I used to have season tickets next to a guy who literally
>    need 1 3/4 seats, but only had one.  I'd be less than comfortable, for
>    more than just 1 night too I might add.  But I respected his right to be
>    there, 400 lbs or not.  I could have let it bother me if I chose to.  I
>    could have complained about it to the Garden, but I'm not that kind of
>    person.  I let it slide and after a few times, I didn't even notice it
>    anymore.  I bet you could have found a way in your situation to do the
>    same if you had tried.
 
Believe it.

Now let's put a 150 lb, 5'7" guy in the seat next to yours, but he wants to
stretch out and take up 1/2 your seat. Gonna let it slide? I'm sure you'll see 
the absurdity of your analogy.

Comparing physical attributes to behavior doesn't wash.
 
>    Part of compromise means at least making an effort to see the other
>    side, which you have yet to demonstrate.  Obviously, there is another
>    side to this...it's more than just a few people judging by what I see
>    and have seen at shows for MANY years now.  This is nothing new!
 
I suggested you dance where it doesn't inhibit my view. You get to dance and
I get to see. But you keep insinuating I should accept it. Bzzzt. Thanks for
playing.
      
>    Mob rule.  That's the spirit!

Mob rule? Say what? 

If most of the crowd stands up, it's unrealistic to expect them to sit. Indeed,
*I* stood up during a couple points where it was warranted as an ovation. Then
most everyone sat down to accomodate the folks behind them, except for a few
folks who apparently don't care about anyone except themselves.

If 1 person stands up it's not unrealistic to expect thm to sit back down.
It's downright inconsiderate.

> My advice to you is don't take it personally when someone decides to dance 
> and have a good time at an arena-rock show.  

And my advice to you is to take a look around you and compromise. If everyone
is sitting down you can bet you're bothering someone. Stand up at another show.

> It's funny to hear your side of this, because I've always considered 
> myself "tolerant" of all you sitter-types.

Tolerant is a far cry from considerate. 

    
    Anyone see the Saturday Night Live skit with Melanie Chartoff (sp? I think)
    as this bopping, dancing, swinging, youngster at a concert of 30- and
    40-somethings?  The band was actually referenced in the sketch but I
    forgot who... anyway, it was some 60's/70's type band, and being the
    "newbie" amongst older fans, she just kept dancing and standing and
    blocking the view of a bunch of people who felt more comfortable
    sitting through the show.
    
    It was really hilarious...  especially the comments of the sitting
    fans - "Doesn't she know that she should look around and see if the
    rest of the audience is standing or sitting and then do what they're
    doing????"  Classic and very apropos to this string of notes.
    
    Anyway, I'm usually the guy Roger Waters prefers to see at concerts
    when he described his perfect Pink Floyd audience - "I want to hear
    a pin drop when I'm playing...  I want the people to sit down and
    shut up!"  
    
    I realize that he's a pretty harsh character and that people like to
    dance occassionaly (I think me and my wife get the same "stander" during
    every Moody Blues concert we ever went to 2 rows in front of us),
    but some people are TOO into it and dancing when the song isn't even
    that hyper.  And I think the 'Dan is a sittin' type of show (as one
    who's danced at others - Bo Diddley, Violent Femmes, Lynyryd Skynyrd)
    
    - Sean

    > the 'Dan is a sittin' type show.
    
    Agreed. They ain't referred to as "the most cerebral" of bands for
    nothing!
    
    Edd

    Now that yoy two clowns have gone on for 10 notes about sitting or
    standing can we get back to the show!!  The so called critics panned
    the show big time on Friday.  I went to the Saturday show and was
    sitting and standing, dancing and cheering on the lawn.  I don't know
    what the problem was on Friday but as for me Saturday was a great
    show!!  I could have done without the 2 Becker songs (they were really
    out of place) but the rest of the songs and jams were top notch.
    
    				Bart

    Maybe the mod can move the notes here. I tried, but it became difficult
    to keep the continuity without being able to move notes not written
    by me.
    
    Edd

    The inconsiderate attitude defended by subbac::martel is only typical
    of the way I find the rock and roll concert experience has degenerated
    over the years.  At the Steely Dan show, most folks remained seated
    but the need to go buy food or whatever seems a lot more important now
    to most people than listening to the music.  The guys in my row
    must have gotten up, left, and returned 15 times.  If you're sitting
    by an aisle (as I was), you're in deeper doodoo yet, because folks
    are constantly streaming by.  It's very distracting.

    I had a lot more fun at concerts in the "old days" because people
    actually wouldn't talk during the show, really didn't want to miss
    anything, and wanted to have a good time with the people sitting
    near them.  The whole experience was very different.  

    It's a lot like movie theatres nowadays, where people seem to think	
    they are in their living room and nobody can hear them talk.  Like
    people who insist on standing, it never seems to occur to them that
    they are making someone else miserable.  The acoustic Neil Young
    show last year at the Orpheum was like that.  Morons would hoot and
    holler, and you could barely hear Neil sing.  I mean this literally!
    At the Ringo Starr show I went to several years ago, the couple in
    front of me conversed with each other non-stop the whole show (I am not
    exagerating).  And god forbid you should ask them to shut up or sit
    down.  Then you are the inconsiderate one.  Talk about twisted logic!

    It's weird.

    
    re: 81.138
    
    Rather than clutter the Steely Dan note, I'll continue here. I agree
    wholeheartedly with the comments made in 81.138.  I don't go to concerts
    any more simply because of the hassle of the whole thing: getting
    decent tickets, paying out the nose, the inconsiderate people that you
    have to put up with.  I won't get into how I feel about inconsiderate 
    people dancing with a f-u attitude about everyone else around, I simply
    don't go anymore because I don't find it to be an enjoyable
    experience.  It's now big business/mega-profits/product.
    
    Jmo - Lv
    

    good move Edd,
    
    	speaking for myself I can live with the big concert BS of standing
    or sitting....if people stand in front of me and I WANT to see I will
    stand up....if people behind me get pissed I tell them that I can not
    see and I have no intentions of telling the 100s of people in front of me
    to sit...but when I can see from a seat I will sit. YES I'm a nice guy!
    Im also 6'3"ish so I see how people have problems seeing around me even
    when they are standing too...or sitting for that matter :') the only
    thing that bugs me is when Im told by someone behind me that he spent
    so much money (read way over face value) and he wants to see like thats
    a good reason, Im sorry he spent that much money but I spent money too
    (face value) and no where does it state he should have the power to
    part the crowd like the red sea because he was a fool and spent so much
    over the tickets price (but thats another note I know).
    
    	I don't mind people singing along, I can't stand the gabby jerks
    who come to a show to talk about something they could have talked about
    in a crowded bar ! Why waste 30+ bucks to talk over the music. 
    
    	Going to a concert is a lot of give and take...over the years I've
    noticed that the crowds have not really changed much, so to say back
    then people where better then now is kinda a cop out or maybe someone
    just showing their age :') the only thing that has changed for me is
    that I'm older and the crowd is sometimes younger....going to places
    like Greatwoods or the Centrum (or any place that holds 15K+) don't
    expect it to be like going to a small club like the OVK (where people
    are quite and sit for the whole show !)
    
    Chris

    I wonder how many of the dancers realize they almost always get their
    way from people such as myself? How? By me simply skipping the show!
    
    Edd

    Ditto to Mr. Westervelt. 
    
    It's a reflection of society today. Not just at rock concerts.
    And watch out for those PC police they are at our heals....
    
    Jim C.
    
    

Note 81.115           Steely Dan/Donald Fagen/Walter Becker           115 of 139
WONDER::REILLY "Sean Reilly CSG/AVS DTN:293-5983"    28 lines  23-AUG-1993 09:17
                           -< glad I went last year >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Well I was pretty disappointed with Friday's show.
    
    Donald seemed pretty disinterested with the whole affair, Walter
    stumbled through concert banter, but most of all the music was NO WAY
    near as good as it was for last year's Rock and Soul Review.
    
    My opinion is if you saw that last year, you saw Steely Dan, and if you
    saw (Friday's show, anyway), you saw some sort of contractual
    obligation worked out to allow WB and DF to promote solo material.
    
    Don't mean to sound cynical, 'cause I'm not, but when I think of live
    performances of "Chain Lightning," "Deacon Blues," and "My Old School"
    I will be remebering the NY Rock and Soul Review, not this year's tour
    (which, oddly enough, had pretty much the same musicians).
    
    Not only that, the non-Steely Dan stuff at the NYRSR was far funner
    than the non-Steely Dan stuff the other night.  Plus, Donald seemed
    in much better spirits last year, bopping around, playing the wise guy,
    chatting with the audience more (why was Walter doing all the talking
    this year)?  
    
    Maybe it was just the magic of the "first time" last year, where every
    Steely Dan song an unexpected surprise, a gift on a night where all
    sorts of interesting music was being played.  I dunno, but people on
    the SD internet dist list seem to feel the same thing.
    
    - Sean

Note 81.116           Steely Dan/Donald Fagen/Walter Becker           116 of 139
SUBPAC::MARTEL                                        6 lines  23-AUG-1993 11:19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Guess you should have been there Saturday.  I was and I had no
    complaints.  Danced the entire time, unlike the majority of
    transplanted couch-potatoes who were there.  How one can go to a show
    such as this and be sedimentary is beyond me.
    
    Bob

>    	Going to a concert is a lot of give and take...over the years I've
>    noticed that the crowds have not really changed much, so to say back
>    then people where better then now is kinda a cop out or maybe someone
>    just showing their age :') the only thing that has changed for me is

    Ya know, I always hated it when my folks would pull the ol' "back
    when I was a kid" routine.  It's really disconcerting to find myself
    doing it!  :-)

    But, that's the way I remember it.  Maybe old age gives ya false
    memories eh Chris?  Your time is coming!  ;-)

    Tom

    re: 484.21
    
     Just for continuity purposes, the note I referred to [81.138] is now
    note 484.18
    
    Lv

    Tom,
    
    ya Im getting there in age (or at least in years of concert going maybe)
    but the only other thing that might have changed is who I go to see ?
    nope that won't work I still go see those bands too :') but then some
    of those bands don't play big halls anymore ! well anyway, its hard for
    me to compare, Dead shows seems to be very different then anyother show
    I've seen.
    
    Chris

    Bob...
    
    Several young people on my street work their too, trust me, they
    don't 'work' their to get involved with guys like you, they go
    to see the show!
    
    I suppose the lawn seats *might* be back enough to stand and 'dance'
    once in a while, but common... I guarantee you wouldn't dance many
    soungs in front of many people.
    
    There's a time and a place for dancing...
    
    	Jerry
    

    OK, I'll take the last word...

   >  It has nothing to do with courtesy and respect...
   
    It has everything to do with courtesy and respect.
    
    >  It has to do with protocol.
    
    1 person dancing violates this tenet. That person shoudl sit down.
    
    >  At a rock show, you expect dancing, period.  
    
    No. At a rock show YOU expect dancing. I expect to see and hear the
    band. 
    
    > Perhaps you don't consider dancing to be a "cerebral" enough activity 
    > for you?
    
    Actually, I don't consider dancing cerebral at all. I consider it to
    be rather tribal. (And I don't consider tribal to be a negative)
    
 
>    Be sure to run out and buy "The Evolution of Ediquette at Rock Concerts"
>    by Mr. Edd (is that a 1st or last name?) at a book store near you!
 
    When your argument fails, try sarcasm. Right on schedule.
        

>    I know.  Why can't people just learn to sit quietly, clap politely,
>    only between songs, and only get up for a drink or bio-break during the
>    intermissions.  Really, some people are so rude, eh?
 
    That would thrill me, but it's a bit draconian. Have a good time, but
    do it where it doesn't bother the people who prefer the above.
       
>    Well, the whole lawn was standing :*)  Let's face it, there are enough
>    people on BOTH sides of the issue judging by what I see at every show
>    I've ever been to.  No clear majority.  Some shows lean more one way
>    than others.  Each side has it's points.  I've sat down on occasion to
>    accomodate someone around me, eventhough I really wanted to dance, with
>    no argument.  Can you say you've ever done the reverse without a gripe
>    say, oh, in the last 50 years  :*)
    
    Is this a trick question? I gave up on run-of-the-mill rock shows
    precisely BECAUSE I was always the one to compromise. I *GUARANTEE*
    you I've simply abandoned my comfort due to the dancers many more
    times than they've submitted to my wishes.
    
    
    > You can't see my point.  I can't see how one couldn't be inspired dance 
    > to the "cerebral" Steely Dan.
    
    Then you are just as blind as you accuse me of being. 
    
    > Don't kid yourself.
    
    You don't think a portion of my ticket price paid for the security? I
    am a CUSTOMER of Great Woods. They work for ME, and you. 
    
    > Again, get a clue.  It's obvious that people dance.  They do it at
    > every show I've ever seen there.  I'm sure they've even heard their
    > share of complaints about it from people like you.  Don't you think
    > that if it were inappropriate it would have been dealt with by now?
    > I do...and it hasn't been because it is completely appropriate.
    
    "It happens, so it must be OK". Poor defense. 
    
    > I can only imagine what he/she thought of you.  Hopefully, you worked
    > it out so you both got what you wanted.
    
    At first he probably thought I was just a jerk who thought I should
    actually expext to see the band. The THIRD time I asked him to sit 
    down I'm sure he thought I was the devil incarnate. 
    
    Not that I care what he thought.

   > I shouldn't have to, not if I feel like dancing.  That's part of what
   >  "I" paid for!
    
    ...and this "me me me" attitude is the same one you pride yourself on.
    

>    No, because in a case like that it's clear that the person is "trying"
>    to be obnoxious.  When I choose to dance, the 1st thing on my mind
>    isn't trying to p*ss people like you off.
 
    I believe this 100%. Mattery fact, I suspect the idea of irking the
    other patrons never crosses your mind.
    
>    Hope to see you at a show someday  :*)
    
 If you're the only one dancing, and you're blocking my view, you'll get
    your wish.
    
    Edd

    	Having run the range, so to speak, from a 'danceable' show (i.e.,
    Ramones) to a non-danceable (i.e., ELP) I can only say this. Steely Dan
    nonwithstanding, GO TO A DANCE CLUB. Or an R&B show. I don't care if
    you consider dancing part of the music, most Rush fans consider
    air-drumming to be part of the music. Any way you look at it, though,
    it's inconsiderate. Maybe you'd like me to stand up at a football game
    during each key play, so I get a better view. 
    
    	It's not enough that you get soaked on the ticket fees, now you're
    EXPECTED to put up with people who go to SEE a band, and obscure other
    people's view of the same. Preposterous. 

	To imply that everyone standing WANTS to stand is way out of
	line.  I've stood but only because everyone in front was, and
	I'll bet that MOST wished for "down in front".  There are
	also tons of shorter folks like me who can't see at all
	even by standing.  Lots of these people then stand on chairs
	or even sit on someone's shoulders.  2 hours on a chair is
	a real pain.

	To me, it's like driving.  Whoever's in front sets the pace
	and everyone behind can't do a thing about it.  There are
	tons of people at concerts who stand only because there's
	no alternative if they want to see.  

	Maybe there should be a designated dancing area at rock
	concerts and, if you're not in that area, the ushers ask
	you to sit.

	Tom

re: .32

>	To imply that everyone standing WANTS to stand is way out of
>	line.  I've stood but only because everyone in front was, and
>	I'll bet that MOST wished for "down in front".  

That's *very* true.  I've many times had to stand through a whole
concert against my will.

>	Maybe there should be a designated dancing area at rock
>	concerts and, if you're not in that area, the ushers ask
>	you to sit.

I was just discussing this with Greg House via mail, and he cracked me up
with the following scenario:

>I think they need "no standing"
>and "no sitting" sections at big shows.  And you thought security was hard
>now...  8^)  I can see it now:
>
>"Hey buddy, you're in the No Sitting section, get your *ss up!"  
>"but...I'm tired..."
>{security guard beats with nightstick, ejects sitter from the show}

(Apologies to Greg for quoting him without permission)

-Hal

    It seems to me many attitudes about concert behaviour stem from the
    60's where the anthem was "Do your own thing". This engendered a 
    feeling that anything is OK as long as you (presumably) don't hurt
    anyone else.
    
    As a society today, we believe this today even more so, to the point
    where we no longer have any standards of behaviour and are supposed
    to be sensitive and accepting to any type of behaviour regardless of
    the consequences.
    
    Personally, my feelings are if ya wanna dance, go find an isle.
    As for behaviour the promoters allow, they are quite happy if the
    crowd manages to go home without trampling each other.

    Great idea.

This is a classic case of a conflict between groups of people with
differing needs. One group needs to sit and listen. The other group
needs to stand up and/or dance. 

The dancers offend the sitters by their actions, but generally remain 
unaware of that fact for several reasons, including:

1. For a sitter to ask a dancer to stop dancing requires taking a very
   assertive posture with a total stranger, which is often a very
   difficult or impossible thing to do for some people.

2. It can be very hard to communicate with anyone else during a
   concert, particularly someone several rows away.

Even if made aware, an individual dancer who is asked to stop dancing
will feel unjustly singled out, and rightly so. The society of people
attending a rock concert has no laws or rules of acceptable behavior,
other than those imposed by the security guards, which are generally
limited to preventing personal injury.

Because the conflict involves groups, not individuals, the only way to
resolve the conflict is to change the environment so that both groups
have their needs satisfied. A perfect example of how this can be done
is the taping section at Grateful Dead concerts.

The Grateful Dead have always allowed people to bring tape decks and
microphones into the concerts. In the last decade, the audience began
to resemble a forest of towering microphone stands. The taping became
a problem because there were two groups of people with different
needs. Each group was invading the other group's space. The tapers
needed space for their equipment and the non-tapers needed space to
view the stage, move around freely, dance, etc.

The solution was to create a separate taping section behind the sound
board. Now, the tapers and non-tapers sit in different areas and don't
bother each other. Seems simple, doesn't it?

So why not have separate sitting and standing sections at rock
concerts? I think it would be a great idea but I never expect to see
it happen. That's because I don't think the people who run concerts
even know about the problem. And if they did, I don't think they would
give a hoot in hell about it unless it demonstrably affected ticket
sales.

The Grateful Dead are a rare exception. They care about their audience
and they do intelligent things. BTW, most everyone dances at Grateful
Dead concerts, except during the jams. It's a pretty homogenious
audience.

Barry

    And how 'bout those that let out full throttle cat calls during the
    quiet passages.

    The problem is really those people that deep down inside are sour
    because they aren't on stage. They aren't the ones that everyone is
    paying attention to. So they have to become the spectacle. These are the
    folks that start the problem by dancing up front. Dancing in the back of
    the seats would defeat their purpose.

    Makes a good case for hand-held nukes (<-hyperbole). But it's nice to
    see that -- so far -- most everyone seems to agree with Edd.

    --Ron

>    The problem is really those people that deep down inside are sour
>    because they aren't on stage. They aren't the ones that everyone is
>    paying attention to. So they have to become the spectacle. 

I think that's only part of the problem and it only serves to explain
why screamers and whistling idiots do what they do. I seriously doubt
that many dancers are motivated by anything as complex as exhibitionism. 
I think what they do is mindless.

The real problem is that a concert audience is a crowd. It behaves 
according to well known characteristics of crowd and mob behavior.
In a nutshell, most individuals lose their sense of self in a crowd.
They become willing to do things that they would never consider
doing when alone. Normal rules of courtesy and acceptable behavior 
simply don't apply in a crowd.

Sure, you can say that "I don't behave differently in a crowd. I don't
act rudely or invade anyone else's space so why should I tolerate anyone 
invading mine?" I agree 100% but it's futile to expect anyone else to
feel that way. People behave like people. You can either accept it
and enjoy yourself in spite of it, or you can sit there and be angry.
I prefer the former.

Barry

    > ...accept it...or sit there...
    
    (c) Change it.
    
    Edd

    
    	re: .39 - yup, you shoulda heard the mob whistling and
    	screaming at Miss Saigon!!  The guy with the rainbow
    	hair, sign saying "John something-or-other", and 
    	screaming "You da man" really p*ssed me off...
    
    	;^)
    

    
    > (c) Change it.
    
    (d) Leave
    
    Joe

    re .41
    
    Tom, different subject but didn't "The Engineer" steal the show?
    
    
    Jim C.
    
    

Re: .40

>    (c) Change it.

GFL! That means: Good ... Luck!

Barry

    > GFL! That means: Good ... Luck!
    
    Your sarcasm noted, the idea of changing someone's behavior isn't all
    that difficult if you remember two things; 
    
    	(1) You must be assertive, though not necessarily aggressive. Save
    	aggressive for later.  Sometimes all you have to do is ask. Some
    	folks need the *equivalent* of a whack upside the head. Violence
    	doesn't work.
    
    	(2) You probably won't be immediately 100% successfull. 
    
    I waited 20 years to see Steely Dan. "Paul Abdul" the dancer wasn't 
    going to completely ruin it for me. I saw to it that he didn't.  
    
    
    Edd

    
    	Jim - yes, he did.  He actually was the star, I'd guess - esp.
    	since he was last to come out for applause.  Loved that tune
    	about coming to America.
    
    	Tom
    

    re: -1
    
    Tom, yes, yes, yes on Coming to America. The inflections on Raul's
    face were priceless. Great casting. You're right, I think he was
    the star as he did come out last. Before the show I thought the
    stars were Paz and Emrick. Not now. 
    
    I've never had to tell any bozo's to sit down or shut up in this
    environment.
    
    Jim C.
    
    
    

    I think people whose bodies occupy more than a certain specified mass
    should be forced to sit in the back at concerts.  Also, all people over
    6' should have to sit towards the back, and only thin people under 5'6"
    should be allowed to sit in the first 20 rows.  
    
    My daughter and I went to see Neil Young, at Great Woods, Monday night
    (he was fantastic), and we could see great until the men in front of us
    stood up.  The one in front of me was over 6' tall, and the one in
    front of her was tall and fat.  
    
    But, that wasn't the worst of it.  The thing, I'm sorry, I mean, the
    *person* two rows in front of us was like The Blob From Hell.  Not only
    was it tall, but it's body mass was incredibly huge, and it felt the
    urge to stand for most of the concert.  I refer to it as it because we
    never saw it's front, and neither of us could tell what gender it was
    supposed to be.  (not that I'd want to get close enough to tell).  We
    finally decided it was Pat, from Saturday Life, only bloated after an
    eating binge.
    
    Huge people should be made to stand in back!!!!!
    
    Lorna
    

    
    I think that these days you've got to bite the bullet and expect to
    stand during most rock shows. It would be nice to be able to sit and
    enjoy, but if that's what you want/need... stay home, kick back in the
    laz-y-boy and listen to the CD. If folks are standing/dancing in front
    of me, I stand so I can see (I paid the price of admission, so I'm
    going to make sure I can see, regardless of whether or not the person
    behind me has to stand as well...) I do think that it's a whole
    different deal if someone is being an obnoxious jerk (continuously
    bouncing into you, dancin' on the chair in front of you, when standing
    alone would enable them to see... you know the type. I will usually ask
    these types to stop *once*. If that fails, I've found that a discrete 
    blow to the more sensative areas has a wonderful, calming effect on even
    the most obnoxious individuals ... Just be careful not to spill your
    beer!!
    
    /Billy_K
    

    Hey, I don't mind standing for the entire show.  I just want to be able
    to see.  I paid 60 bucks a piece for those Neil Young tix, and for 60
    bucks I expect to be able to see the star, you know what I'm saying?
    
    But, I'm only 5'1" tall, and when somebody over 6' tall, and fat, to
    boot, stands in front of me, it's aggravating.  Tall people, especially
    men way over 6' don't know how lucky they have it in this world
    sometimes.  Fortunately, I was able to position myself so that I could
    see Neil most of the time, but I was forever having to crane my neck in
    a different direction in order to keep seeing.  
    
    I don't mind standing.  I just think they should let only us short (and
    thin!! no blobs, please) people get the first few rows.  AFter all,
    tall people can see over my head if I stand, but I can't see over
    theirs!!!
    
    And, I bet tall people never even stop to think about how different it
    is for short people.  
    
    Lorna
    

    > tall people never stop to think...
    
    Lemme give you back some faith in human nature. My shorter date and I 
    swapped seats so the very short woman who was behind me could get a 
    better view. She (the woman behind us) simply asked...
    
    Edd

    re .51, why, Edd!  You sweetheart, you!!  That was very nice of you. 
    However, it wouldn't have done any good to ask the tall, skinny guy in
    front of me, because he was with the tall fat guy who was in front of
    my daughter. 
    
    Lorna
    

    Lorna,
    
    	1st to bad you paid 60bucks...thats your fault not the person
    standing in front of you. 2nd get real ! Im over 6' tall and after
    reading your note I'd stand in front of you for spite.
    
    Chris

    Lorna,
    
    I think that if you ask, most tall people will try to accomodate you
    by moving, if possible, to give you a better view. Being over 6'
    myself, I try to keep this in mind at places like the movie theatre
    by slouching down in the seat so that the folks behind me won't have to 
    spend all their time trying to see around my head. At concerts, if I
    notice that there is a woman or a shorter guy behind me, I'll try to 
    accomodate their view, as long as it doesn't hinder mine (like I said
    before, I paid for a ticket, too). It's quite often those guys with 
    the "little-big-man" chip on their shoulders that'll give you a hard
    time (IMHO)...
    
    /Billy_K
    

    re .53, why would you stand in front of me for spite?  I don't
    understand.  What did I ever do to you?  Don't tell me.  You're The
    Blob From Hell right.  Well, hey.  I'm just calling them like I see
    them.  I didn't tell that tall, immensely fat person to stand in front
    of me.
    
    And, as far as my paying 60 bucks.  That was my choice, yes.  But, it's
    not my fault that scalpers have ways of acquiring so many tickets when
    they go on sale, and it's not my fault that popular performers are so
    in demand that they sell out before many people can get through to
    charge tix.  Actually, I have no complaint about paying 60 bucks.  Neil
    Young was worth every cent to me.  I'm just saying that I wouldn't have
    wanted to pay the money for nothing, you know what I mean.
    
    Personally, I think you sound like sort of a nasty person if you'd like
    to stand in front of someone out of spite, and block their view. 
    Someone that you have never met, and you want to hurt me just because
    you didn't like one note I wrote in a notefile?  I think that's sick,
    if you want to know the truth.  
    
    BTW, your name sounds familiar but I can't place it.  
    
    All I said was I wish tall and/or fat people wouldn't stand up and
    block my view at rock concerts, and this makes you so angry that you'd
    like to block my view.  You sound like a really vindictive son of a gun
    to me.  
    
    Lorna
    

    re .54, like I replied to Edd, asking didn't seem to be an option
    Monday night since the two men in front of us, were both tall and they
    were together.  It was 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.  It's
    not a case of one being a man and one being a shorter woman, and, even
    so, what am I supposed to do have the man stand in front of my daughter
    and block her view, in that case.  She wants to see, too.  
    
    Oh, well, Chris Fields reply certainly shows that some tall people
    don't give a damn about blocking the view for short people.  In fact,
    he admits he'd enjoy blocking a short person's view, out of spite, just
    because he didn't like something about one note the person had written. 
    Don't you think you form your character judgements a bit hastily?  Or,
    hasn't it ever occurred to you that when  a person writes in a
    notesfile, such as the Music notesfile, they are only showing one very
    small side of themselves.  there's a lot more that goes into making up
    a whole person than one note in a notesfile, and I don't think people
    should decide they hate people just over one note they didn't like.
    
    Lorna
    

I've been to plenty of concerts where a short person has stood up in front of
me, blocking my view.  So I have to stand up in order to see.  Immediately people
see a 6'3" person standing up and start yelling at me to sit down.  In that
situation, being tall isn't so much of an advantage.

Thank God I mostly go to Dead concerts, where people only sit down to rest and
get a break from dancing.  :^)

- DC

    Perhaps the problem would be ameliorated if they slanted
    the seating at a more drastic angle.  

    Hey Lorna at least you didn't have to sit *next* to the blob!  :-)

    Man, this is getting more complicated all the time!

    
    Lorna... lighten up... the 'blob' as you put it, might not be able
    to do anything about his weight... geeze... BUT.. he CAN do something
    about standing.. I say SIT DOWN in concert seats...
    
    I once went to see the Stones at the Boston Gahden... had what I
    thought were great seats... on the floor about 20 rows back..
    WRONG... I had to stand on the BACK of the seat all night, just
    to see over the rows in front of me...
    
    		Jerry
    

    Lorna,
    
    Surely you are not suggesting that short people should get
    deferrential treatment and better seats just by virtue of the fact
    that they're short??? Personally, I'd probably offer to swap seats with
    you (what's 1-or 2 feet difference from the stage??). However, this
    is a courtesy, and should not be confused with a right or expectation.
    
    /Billy_K

    I recall a 1980 "League of Gentlemen" (Robert Fripp & co) show at a
    nightclub (Cleveland Agora).  The place had tables, and a dance floor.
    During other shows, the dance floor had been SRO, but before the show
    started, people on the floor were sitting.
    
    For the opener, everyone stood up, had a good time, etc..
    
    Fripp & co. came on, everyone stood up, and the crowd behind at tables,
    etc. yelled angrily, so many tried to be conscientious (and somewhat
    reverent of Fripp's music), and sat back down.  Eventually, Fripp
    exclaimed, "This is DANCE music - I want you to DANCE".  We thenceforth
    pogo'ed.
    
    Personally, I'm happy to go with the flow... whatever most people are
    doing...
    
    \chuck

    If I'm At a Concert..And the Music gives me Happy_Feet..
    The only Way I'm Gonna sit is if I Gotta_Shit!
    
    Crazy_Carry_My_Own_Bung_Wipe_Al

    I saw Robert Fripp and the League of Gentlemen at the Paradise in
    Boston which was especially cleared for dancing.  I was very glad cuz
    the place was really hopping.  Great concert!  I only wish the album
    was nearly so good.
    
    All-in-all on this issue, IMHO, if it ain't a dance club it's a concert.  
    And if it is a concert you should be expected to sit.  If you want to 
    dance, get out of the seats and go to the back of the auditorium (or
    any other cleared area out of the sightlines of the seating) and 
    dance yer little butt off - just stay out of the way.
    
    Thank you for your support.
    
    - Dave

>VAXWRK::STHILAIRE "Food, Shelter & Diamonds"         
>    I think people whose bodies occupy more than a certain specified mass
>    should be forced to sit in the back at concerts.  Also, all people over
>    6' should have to sit towards the back, and only thin people under 5'6"
>    should be allowed to sit in the first 20 rows.  
>    
>    My daughter and I went to see Neil Young, at Great Woods, Monday night
>    (he was fantastic), and we could see great until the men in front of us
>    stood up.  The one in front of me was over 6' tall, and the one in
>    front of her was tall and fat.  

	did they stand to see over the people in front of them ?

>    
>    But, that wasn't the worst of it.  The thing, I'm sorry, I mean, the
>    *person* two rows in front of us was like The Blob From Hell.  Not only
>    was it tall, but it's body mass was incredibly huge, and it felt the
>    urge to stand for most of the concert.  I refer to it as it because we
>    never saw it's front, and neither of us could tell what gender it was
>    supposed to be.  (not that I'd want to get close enough to tell).  We
>    finally decided it was Pat, from Saturday Life, only bloated after an
>    eating binge.

	this I found rude and un-called for.

>    
>    Huge people should be made to stand in back!!!!!
>    
>    Lorna
>    
>    re .53, why would you stand in front of me for spite?  I don't
>    understand.  What did I ever do to you?  Don't tell me.  You're The
>    Blob From Hell right.  Well, hey.  I'm just calling them like I see
>    them.  I didn't tell that tall, immensely fat person to stand in front
>    of me.

	Nope I'm not the blob as you put it, and thats what I fine rude...
	you have never done anything to me except stereo-type Tall
	men who stand at concerts......

>    
>    And, as far as my paying 60 bucks.  That was my choice, yes.  But, it's
>    not my fault that scalpers have ways of acquiring so many tickets when
>    they go on sale, and it's not my fault that popular performers are so
>    in demand that they sell out before many people can get through to
>    charge tix.  Actually, I have no complaint about paying 60 bucks.  Neil
>    Young was worth every cent to me.  I'm just saying that I wouldn't have
>    wanted to pay the money for nothing, you know what I mean.

	if you still support the scalpers then they still will be there. IMO
	but if you still find the need to buy tickets from them then don't
	cry about how much you spent....do you think Neil saw the extra $$
	you spent ? I don't think so.....and what makes you think that the 
	two guys in front of you didn't pay more, in your mind then they
	should have more right to stand, they might have paid more ?

>    
>    Personally, I think you sound like sort of a nasty person if you'd like
>    to stand in front of someone out of spite, and block their view. 
>    Someone that you have never met, and you want to hurt me just because
>    you didn't like one note I wrote in a notefile?  I think that's sick,
>    if you want to know the truth.  

	personal no I would not stand in front of you if I could see myself 
	sitting, but if people are in front of me yes I will stand, and if I
	can do so without blocking you great if not sorry, I to paid to see
	the show....I find your personal attack of overweight people sick.

>    
>    BTW, your name sounds familiar but I can't place it.  

	yes it should we did work around SHR a few years back

>    
>    All I said was I wish tall and/or fat people wouldn't stand up and
>    block my view at rock concerts, and this makes you so angry that you'd
>    like to block my view.  You sound like a really vindictive son of a gun
>    to me.  

	sorry I'm tall, should I go to my mothers house and punch her in the
	face for making me a tell person ? now thats vindictive...Im not
	
>    
>    Lorna
>    
>    
>    Oh, well, Chris Fields reply certainly shows that some tall people
>    don't give a damn about blocking the view for short people.  In fact,
>    he admits he'd enjoy blocking a short person's view, out of spite, just
>    because he didn't like something about one note the person had written. 
>    Don't you think you form your character judgements a bit hastily?  Or,
>    hasn't it ever occurred to you that when  a person writes in a
>    notesfile, such as the Music notesfile, they are only showing one very
>    small side of themselves.  there's a lot more that goes into making up
>    a whole person than one note in a notesfile, and I don't think people
>    should decide they hate people just over one note they didn't like.

	Form character Judgements Hastily ?....did you ask these men
	to sit ? could they see if they sat ?
	if you were to tell me to sit with the tone you used in that
	note then yes I would enjoy standing in front of you.
	now if you were just joking around....then I missed your smileyface
>    
>    Lorna

	you have insulted me, I am tall person, and well you're NOT

Chris_Tall_and_proud_damn_it    

    
    I remember seeing The Who at Sullivan Stadium a few years back.  There
    was a woman a couple of rows behind me who brought along a tamborine...
    A TAMBORINE.  After a couple of songs of hearing that damn thing over
    the music I came to hear, I went back and nicely told that it was
    bothering a bunch of us.  She continued.  Then me and some friends went
    back and told her that if she didn't knock it off, her prized noise
    maker would end up in a million pieces.  She got the message.  Everyone
    within 40 ft cheered when she finally stopped.
    
    Later...
    Steve
    

    So far I've been just reading these replies, but now I feel I need to
    say something.
    
    I recently went to a UB40 concert in New York at a CONCERT HALL.  When
    they first came out a few people off to the side stood up and started
    dancing.  I like to dance myself, but the people in front and in back
    of me did not get out of their seats, so I stayed seated even though I
    wanted to dance.
    
    Security came out quickly and told the people to sit down and he then
    told the security guard in front of me, not to let people dance.  The
    whole time this was going on, one of the group members was watching the
    whole thing.  After they finished their first song they made an
    announcement to security that they were a dance band and if their fans
    wanted to dance then we could dance.  Of course, after that we all
    stood and danced.  A few songs into the show a few people decided to
    sit down and then torment the few people in front of them to sit.  Of
    course, these people didn't sit down and an argument started and the
    people who wanted to sit ended up leaving the show.
    
    It's a hard situation when a band expects people to dance and some
    people just don't want to do it.  What do you do in a sitution like
    that?  Luckily I myself had no problems, but I don't know what I'd do
    in a situation like that.  It's a hard call to make when the band tells
    people to stand.
    
    Also, I'd like to reply about this tall people thing.  I'm 5' 3" and it
    seems like no matter where I go someone over 6' sits in front of me
    (unless, of course, I get front row).  I'd just like to say that I hold
    nothing against tall or over-weight people.  I just try to enjoy the
    show and see as much as possible, which I've managed pretty well, just
    by looking in between the heads.  At one concert recently at Great
    Woods everyone got up to dance, and we ended up with some TALL men in
    front of us.  We politely asked them to move over a little so that we
    could see and they did so with no problem.
    
    Maybe the whole secret behind these problems is just being nice?
    
    Well, this is my opinion,
    
    Nancy

    RE: .66
    
    Yeah, the WHO show wasn't bad but damn were my legs tired at
    the end of the show. Not from dancing but from standing on my
    chair. I'm given 25th row center seats, can't complain too much
    since they were free, and I figure this is pretty good. With
    the elevation of the stage I should be able to see fine.
    
    The WHO comes on and within a minute everyone stood up, fine this
    usually happens when a band first comes on. Next people up front
    get on their chairs, why is beyond me. Certainly not to see better
    as the elevation of the stage if everyone sat they'd see the band fine.
    Of course the domino effect took place and it looked like the whole
    floor of the stadium were on their wobbly folding chairs. Quite a
    balancing act. Of course everyone stood for the whole show. Rather
    bizzare mentality. Give me a club where I can sit, drink a brew and
    see the entertainment any day.
    
    Jim C.
    

    
    
    re: .67
    
    I think you've hit on the answer, here.  If you absolutely want to see
    the show you've just got to buy front row, that's all.
    
    There's obviously no way this can be settled in this file.  I hope no
    one get's their feelings hurt in the free flow of ideas.
    
    

    When I saw Jimmy Page at the Boston Garden a few years back -
    everyone stood on their seats the whole time.  Definitely
    an effort!

    As for a band telling people to dance, well I don't think
    they have a right to do that any more than the people in
    (or out) of the seats.
    
>    Maybe the whole secret behind these problems is just being nice?

    What a concept!   :-)

I've enjoyed reading this topic.  There are two distinct camps out there.
One that wants to dance because the music makes them and others that prefer to
listen intently while maintaining the best view possible.

The following happened at the Neil show at GWoods this past monday.  Neil came 
out, the crowd went nuts.  Everyone stands for the first 3 hot, hot electric 
tunes.  No prob for me as I, ahem, like to dance.  So the crowd sits down, 
again no problem for me because I like to watch while motionless as well so 
I sat. 

That went on for almost the rest of the show (in my location).  So what's a
dancing fool supposed to do?  I waited for folks in front to stand up which
never happened .... The last song before the encore though I figured it was
*my* turn.  So I stood and danced.  I probably blocked someone's view.  What 
can I say - during the regular set I was up 4 out of 15 songs.  I think this 
is a decent COMPROMISE.  What do you all think?

Another related thread - what some folks consider to be "cerebral" music just
might be someone elses dance music.

re:  tamborine girl

I went to a John Mayall concert and sat next to the harmonica player.  Not
the one in the band but the one in the 23rd row.  After we realized he'd keep
going without us asking, we asked and he stopped.

So let me hear it.  Was I unkind to dance the last song after having sat
the 11 previous?  Sounds like a fine compromise between different people who
have different ideas and different ways of expressing themselves.

bob

    
    I can safely say I've been to over 100 concerts in the past 8 years,
    and if you want to stand and dance - the $30.00 price of admission does
    not allow you that luxury. As they say in Star Trek:
    
    "It's a concert, not a dance club dammit !"
    
    And I will have Security bounce your butt. If there's a mosh pit - have
    at it. Most of these wannabee dancers would'nt last a minute in a true
    Red Hot Chili Pepper mosh pit, but at least they can try - without
    bothering the 2-3 rows behind them. 
    
    You purchase a seat (except for the lawn), and if it was Cats or the
    NY Philharmonic, you'd be escorted out. If you're around me (6' 2",
    and 200 lbs) you'd be history.
    
    - acp

    Were you rude and inconsiderate? Yeah, anytime you block my view you're
    rude and inconsiderate.
    
    Was it too much to ask? Nah, I'll bend that much.
    
    The jerk in front of me Friday night had to dance to every song,
    sometimes not the entire tune, but when he sat down he replaced dancing
    with raising his clenched fists and pumping his arms. (This guy
    couldn't carry a beat in a Hefty Bag, I might add.) Even when he wasn't
    blocking my view he was a distraction.
    
    ...and then he'd look around at the seated masses and smile as if to
    say "Look at me! I'm a party animal!"
    
    Edd

Re: standing on wobbly folding chairs the whole time

This is yet another example of crowd behavior (mass stupidity
if you prefer). It takes only one cretin in the front to cause a
chain reaction that affects hundreds of other people.

I've always wished that the musicians would take pity on the
poor audience by saying something like:

	"Okay people. Listen up. I'm going to count to three. Then 
	everyone standing on a chair is going to step down onto the 
	floor and stay on the floor. Anyone who doesn't step down on
	his own is going to land on the floor head first. Ready?
	One. Two. Three."

If you think about it, having folding chairs at some concerts serves
no purpose other than to label each person's standing space. Too bad
they don't just mark a grid on the floor.

Barry

>>    ...and then he'd look around at the seated masses and smile as if to
>>   say "Look at me! I'm a party animal!"

My experiences with these types has been much worse.  They usually have no shirt
on (big clue - btw) and turn around to pick a fight with anyone nearby for no
reason at all...

Security usually helps these bozos find the door...

Tim

    In one of the previous replies someone said that when the person in
    front stands up, they would rather fix the problem by telling them to
    sit down instead of accomodating the problem by standing up as well.
    You may be fixing your particular problem but you are creating a
    problem for the person in front.
    
    Basically if you want to be a boring old fart and sit down the whole
    time, either swap seats with the guy in front who's standing up, or don't
    both going at all, buy the video when it comes out, and you can sit the
    whole concert out in the safety of you armchair. The guy in front has
    paid just as much as you to see the gig, so why shouldn't he dance if he
    feels the urge to? 
    
    As for Roger Waters, if he thinks I'm sitting down quiety during
    'Comfortably Numb' he's got another thing coming.
    
    I think you're all getting stuck in your ways in your old age. Lighten
    up and enjoy the concert instead of trying to impose your wishes on
    everone else around you.
    
    I'll get off my soapbox now........
    
    Ian 

    This is hilarious!
    
    The bottom line is that the rock concert environment is an aberration
    anyway.  Go try boogying in the aisles at Symphony Hall when Seiji
    starts digging into Mozart's "Jupiter" and see how quickly you are
    escorted out to the street!  Why the hell put dance music in a venue
    where there are seats all over the place (I won't bother to argue the
    opposite case, the club where noone dances but there are no seats!)?
    
    I don't go to big shows anymore.  Why should I be treated like an
    animal by security, not be able to see the show, get stuck in the
    parking lot and than pay $30 and up for this privelege?
    
    I guess it's too bad I'll never see certain artists but then there is a
    lot of music worth experiencing in more comfortable venues and I'm not
    losing out as far as I can tell.
    
    Have fun, kiddies.
    
    							Brian

RE:.77 by WELCLU::BROWNI 

>    -< People who sit down add no atmosphere >-

>    [make believe I've included a copy of the entire .77 here]

    This brainless reply illustrates the problem perfectly (to people with
    brains anyway). Thank you for entering it.

    I'll get off my soapbox now........

    --Ron

Re: .77

> ...enjoy the concert instead of trying to impose your wishes on
    everone else around you.

Just what in the bloody **** do you think you're doing when you stand up 
and start dancing?

>    Basically if you want to be a boring old fart and sit down the whole
>    time... 

The arrogance and selfishness of your attitude is just amazing. What
gives you the right to pass judgment on someone else because they prefer 
to sit and listen?

>    The guy in front has
>    paid just as much as you to see the gig, so why shouldn't he dance if he
>    feels the urge to? 

Because it blocks other people's views. Do you really care nothing for 
other people's feelings or needs?

Barry

    
    re .80
    
>   Do you really care nothing for other people's feelings or needs?
    
    Hasn't the dancing contingent already made that abundantly clear?
    
    len (observing this discussion with some detached bemusement).
    

I have found that concert going is always a compromise.  I have stood when I
would have preferred to sit so I don't have to stare at the butts of the people
in front of me.

I have also been to shows where the thought of sitting down has never occurred
to me or anyone around us.

Unfortunately, Edd has pointed out that not everyone can stand throughout the
show.  I guess given that situation, I would have tried to move to get an
unobstructed view.  I realize that is not always possible.  Perhaps talking to
the person would have made them aware of what they were doing, but it sounds
like he was not too concerned about others.

Pretty frustrating.

Tim

There seems to be two different attitudes about the problem, here ... some
people are addressing it as an "etiquette" issue, while others claim that
they have some right, given that they bought a ticket, to be able to sit down
and see the band perform.

If you see it as an etiquette issue, it's interesting to discuss but I hope
you don't ever expect resolution - there'll always be people who want to sit
and there'll also be people who want to dance.  You can't expect thousands of
people listening to music they enjoy to behave the same way.

Does buying a ticket for a concert with seats enable one to claim a "right"
to be able to simultaneously sit and see the band?  You got me.  What do the
people who are putting on the show have to say?  I've never been to a concert
and seen any written statement or heard any authority say "you have an
obligation to remain seated (unless in the process of travelling to concession
stand, bathroom," etc. ;^).  Has anyone ever been thrown out of a stadium
concert for not sitting?

Personally, I like to be flexible and accommodate the people around me, but it
does get annoying when you need to stand in order to see, due to the people
standing in front of you, and then people behind you yell at you to sit down.
I think this is the one of the reasons I generally avoid stadium shows, now.

my 2 cents
- Dave

    I think it's interesting to guess where the line will be for shows
    where everyone stands as opposed to shows where everyone sits down. 
    For example, certain shows you just know you're gonna stand the entire
    time - Springsteen, U2, Tom Petty.  Then there are shows where everyone
    sits politely during the entire thing - I saw Clannad earlier this
    spring and we sat through the entire thing, although it was good.  But,
    then Van Morrison is one where you can't really tell.  :-)  (and he's
    my all-time favorite [my personal god] :-), ) and for him you get to
    sit for part of the time, but then he'll do something like Gloria and
    everybody hops up.  
    
    I think it makes a big difference how steeply graded the seating is. 
    For example, I saw Van Morrison at the Wang center and although people
    stood-up, I could still see because it's fairly steep.  I've noticed at
    The Centrum that I only have trouble standing, if people stand on their
    seats.  But, one complaint I do have about Great Woods is that it was
    not graded steeply enough, and when tall people stand in front of short
    people, the short people would need to stand on the seats in order to
    see.  So, I think that's one way they screwed up when they designed
    Great Woods.  Of course, the real big screw-up was having only one
    access road into and out of the place.  Anyway, I don't mind standing
    as long as I can see.  
    
    How about having kissing in front of you all night, so their heads are
    always together to form a big obstruction in front of you.  I went to
    one show at Great Woods a couple of years ago, where this couple kept
    kissing while standing up, through the whole thing.  It was Midnight
    Oil, too, not the most romantic band in the world.  I ended up just
    moving into the aisle so I could see Peter Garret.
    
    Lorna
     

    re .84, I wanted to tell the kissing couple they could have saved a lot
    of money if they had just stayed home and had sex, but it was too
    noisy.  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

>    I think it's interesting to guess where the line will be for shows
>    where everyone stands as opposed to shows where everyone sits down. 

Wouldn't it be nice if you could *know* what to expect when you buy
your ticket? Even majority-rules would be better than what actually
happens.

What really bothers me is that the promoters could easily prevent the 
chain-reaction effect that allows a few people to spoil things for 
hundreds of others. When the majority wants to stand, that's one 
thing. But when it's just a few morons up front, it would be a
simple matter for the security guards to sit them back down.

As I said before, the promoters don't give a hoot what happens as
long as they sell their tickets and nothing happens that they can
get sued over.

Hmmm. I wonder what would happen if people started bringing suit
against the concert promoters. It seems to me that you could make 
a case that selling a ticket guarantees the buyer the right to see 
and hear a concert. Could allowing people to stand up be considered 
breach of contract?

Barry

re  <<< Note 484.86 by WEORG::ROGOFF "Barry Rogoff, IDC, NUO1-1/G10, 264-2842" >>>
                                  -< Re: .84 >-
>Hmmm. I wonder what would happen if people started bringing suit
>against the concert promoters. It seems to me that you could make 
>a case that selling a ticket guarantees the buyer the right to see 
>and hear a concert. Could allowing people to stand up be considered 
>breach of contract?

Oh oh, I guess they'll be ripping out some poles at Boston Garden.  ;^)

    re: .86
    
    It won't be long nor soon enough. ;-)
    
    Jim C.
    
    

	

	I saw a show in 69' or maybe 70' in Boston , pretty sure
	at Boston Garden (can't remember for sure, God  I'm getting senile!!)
	with The American Dream (one hit wonder, I think American Women or 
	Horse with No Name was it) The John Mayall "Turning Point" Band, 
	Steve Miller "Blues" Band (thats how it was billed!), and the Moody 
	Blues.

	The American Dream played first.  Some people were up and dancing
	but all in all most were in thier seats.  There were no problems.

	I should mention that these were the days when there were MANY
	people high at concerts (like 75%), and I don't mean a few buds....

	John Mayall came on and promptly asked everyone to sit and stated
	he would not start until they did.  This caused a few people to
	scream and yell but after about 10 mins of John sitting on stage
	and no music, everyone quieted down and the show started.  
	
	Mayall and his band were great and I must say that I was glad he
	made everyone sit down.  The set was exactly the one from the
	Turning Point album and I believe everyone loved it judging
	from the standing o after the last song of the set - Room to Move.

	Now Steve Miller gets on (started  acoustic , just him on a chair
	with guitar and mike) and starts droning on about how bad it
	sucked that people had to be 30 feet from the music (refering to
	the isle between the first row of seats and the stage) and generally
	whipping the more stoned of the crowd into a rather wild state.
	Police move in..... Miller goes on and on with the cops and...
	the police relented and allowed people to dance in the isles   
    	and move right up to the stage.  Miller got the rest of his band
	on and the place rocked. Everyone was standing.  

	The Moody Blues came on and again everyone stood, danced, had a 
	good time. They were great!!

	I enjoyed each band because I went with the flow. I enjoyed
	Mayall the most as that was the type music (mellow, jazz influenced)
	that allowed the audience to sit, REALLY listen, and WATCH the show
	and that was the mood I was in.

	Steve Miller and the Moody Blues were a more emotional ride which 
	was great fun too.  As soon as the crowd got up, I had to stand
	also (I'm 5'8", not exactly a giant!) and boogie down.

	My point is that it would be real nice if everyone were polite
	sweet drones who sat passively and watched the show from a seat,
	but given each person has different tastes and different response
	to external stimuli (da tunes) it just ain't going to happen. 
 	Learn to adjust or stop going to high energy rock concerts.  Like
	life, having a good time at a concert, can be a crapshoot!

	

re                     <<< Note 484.89 by CADSYS::PRUNIER >>>
              -< this discussion reminds me of a show I saw once >-

> 	Learn to adjust or stop going to high energy rock concerts.  Like
>	life, having a good time at a concert, can be a crapshoot!

No no no!  We must have ultimate, absolute control over every situation in our
lives!	

- DC

    re: .89
    
    >> Those were the days...
    >> people high at concerts (like 75%), and I don't mean a few buds....
    
    Funny.. that's exactly what I thought you meant! ... :^)
    
    	Jerry
    

    re .91, from the smell of things there were more than a few buds at the
    Neil Young concert last week, too...
    
    Lorna
    

    While I wasn't at last night's Steely Dan concert, a friend who was
    related the following to me...
    
    During Bodisattva The Amazing Partyman decided to thrill the seated
    masses with a display of choreographic technique. Apparently the
    ajoining attendees felt this behavior detracted from their enjoyment
    of the stage performance, and communicated this to the ad hoc
    performer.
    
    The Amazing Partyman objected to the "when in Rome" recommendation and 
    proceeded to challenge one of the objectors. 
    
    When all was said and done it was shown that The Amazing Partyman does
    indeed bleed.
    
    Edd

>    When all was said and done it was shown that The Amazing Partyman does
>    indeed bleed.
    
Did that make your year?

    > Did that make your year?
    
    I simply relayed the story, and have no vested interest in the
    occurance.
    
    Edd