Conference mr1pst::music

    Man, when is this sh*t gonna end...
    
    								Brian

    I believe this was attempt #2. The shotgun being more effective of
    course than the Drug/Alchohol mix. Huge loss to the world of music.
    
    Left his daughter also. What a selfish prick!
    
                                                            Doug.
    

    
    screw him and every other self-pitying, inconsiderate whiner.  This guy
    had no excuse, when you consider what some people survive with not even
    a fraction of his resources.
    
    I don't think it's appropriate to attempt to equate the significance
    of Kurt's departure with the loss of Jimi, Janis, John, Stevie Ray, or
    any other popular music figure who died accidentally.  You can argue
    that a drug overdose is a disguised suicide attempt, and maybe it is --
    it all depends on the history and the state of mind of the individual. 
    If he/she has threatened suicide.  I just don't get the feel that Jimi
    and Janis were that down.
    
    It really sounds like KC was an authentic 5150.  Either the people that
    let him out of the rubber room just weren't doing their jobs, or he was
    able to fool them -- in which case they still weren't doing their jobs.
    
    Yeah, it's sad he's dead, but that's what he wanted.  I have a hard
    time feeling any enthusiasm for his "success" when I consider the
    emotional pollution he dumped on his family and the bad example he's
    set for his followers.
    

    re: .3
    
    Though I hear where you are coming from and am mostly in agreement.
    Hendrix's "Cry of Love" was basically a goodbye note.
    
    Jim C.
     

    
    	Heard on Boston FM radio - KC's widow Courtney Love gives
    	a recorded message containing profanity and pieces of Kurt's
        suicide note to Seattle fans conducting a candlelite virgil.
    
        No actual excerpts were given here...
    
    dk 

     Yes, it's unfortunate.  Comparisons are being made between him and 
    John Lennon which I find totally inappropriate myself, someone on the
    TV claimed he was this generations John Lennon. 
    
    L

    The more important issue for me is not whether he was an as*h*le or a
    f*ck-up but that the music biz has developed this grotesque concept of
    setting up some less-than-together people as cultutral icons.  Whether
    they are self-destructive like Cobain or just patehtic like Madonna,
    it seems the big conglomerates don't want to be bothered with making
    ANY kind of moral judgement about what they are doing.  
    
    It's not like the people around Kurt Cobain thought he was a stable
    guy, but they seemed to have treated him more like a meal ticket than a
    human being. Just think how many Nirvana albums must have been sold
    this weekend... 
    
    Considering that both Hendrix and the Doors have actually *increased*
    in popularity over the years, it seems possible that Cobain's label
    and management may be able to milk his work for many years to come.
    
    As far a Kurt being "a voice for his generation", well heaven help
    them all...seriously...
    
    							Brian

    In general, I think it would be a tragedy for any 27 yr. old,
    apparently talented, intelligent, and reasonably healthy, person to
    commit suicide.  The fact that Kurt Cobain happened to have been a
    successful rock star doesn't make it any less of a tragedy.  I don't
    know if he was really a jerk, or not, but I think it's very sad that he
    didn't want to live.  He was very young.  He might have gotten his act
    together and had a worthwhile contribution to make to the world if he
    had lived.  And, last, but not least, he was a handsome young guy. 
    What a waste.  Very sad.
    
    Also, while it may even seem sacrilegious, to some baby boomers, to
    compare his death to that of Hendrix, Janis or Jim Morrison, I don't
    recall that too many middle-aged people (of the day) considered their 
    deaths a tragedy at the time they died.
    
    I wonder where Courtney Love was when Kurt was killing himself?
    
    Lorna
      

    I don't understand this negative vibe towards Cobain.  Give the
    guy a break!  He was talented, he was unhappy.  He doesn't owe
    it to anybody to be a role model.  Why do people think they own
    a piece of somebody, just because he sold records for a living?

    You don't have to be like him.  And you weren't there, among
    his family and his friends, so how can you criticize what you
    don't know.

    My $.02.  I liked the music.

A couple of interesting points I read in the Globe this weekend.

Cobain said that the punks who beat him up in high school because he was
interested in painting instead of sports, were the same people who bought
tickets to see Nirvana once they became big.

He claimed these guys were like Beavis and Buttheads but the ones on TV were
much smarter.

The Sunday Globe also ran a tasteful picture of Cobain's lower half shot through
an open window while the police were investigating.

The articles implied the guy was an introvert and wanted to play rhythm guitar
in the shadows and just never knew what to do when he became a celebrity.  While
I would never compare the guy to John Lennon, I might compare him to someone
like Jim Morrison who always seemed to live on the edge.  It's truly unfortunate
that all around him let him go without help.  As Brian said, the machine will
continue to cash in on him for years.  His death only affects the future albums,
but should actually promote the first 3.

Tim

    
    
    
    I read in the Orange County (CA) paper that the record company reps
    were on the phone to record store owners within hours of the
    announcement.  This wasn't to console the owners, though...  The reps
    were soliciting orders in anticipation of a run on the "product".
    
    

    re: .11 My thoughts exactly.
    
    
    "And by the way, which ones Pink?"
    
    Welcome to Machine.
    
    Jim C.
    
    

>It's truly unfortunate
>that all around him let him go without help. 

    But, that doesn't sound true.  The guy actually ran away from 
    some treatment facility or other... his mom reported him missing..
    sounds like people were doing what they could.

    I heard that he suffered from a chronic stomach ailment and that he was
    always in extreme pain.  Could that have contributed to the suicide?

    An interesting quote from Curt's mom, sifted from the flood of media
    over the weekend.  More or less something like this:
    
    "He went and joined that stupid club.  And I asked him not to go and
    join that stupid f**in club".
    

    Errrr, club?  What club?

    Jimi, Janis, Jim.

I knew that. I was only pretending to be stupid.

    I guess gullible isn't in the dictionary today.

    re: .8
    
    I agree with Lorna.
    
    Y'know, folks have a tendency to think that they're problems are
    somehow more significant than the problems that other people have.
    
    Because only a few have money, succes, fame, etc. folks have a tendency
    to rationalize that if you have money, success, fame or whatever that
    everything else either doesn't matter or will be taken care of by the
    success.
    
    Folks, we may agree to differ, but my opinion and observation is that
    it simply does NOT work that way.  
    
    I've known some VERY wealthy people who are hopelessly unhappy, and
    some very poor people who are very happy (whom the wealthy people would
    trade places with in a heartbeat).
    
    FWIW, coming from that perspective, I find some of these "jerk" notes
    bordering on cruel and viscious.
    
    Just my two cents,
    
    	db

Robert Hilburn of the LA Times today went to Seattle over the weekend and 
spoke with friends and family members about Kurt's last days.  I can't 
type in the whole article, but I'll give you the gist of it. (BTW - 
Hilburn had interviewed Courtney Love last Monday for a cover story in 
the LA Times Sunday Calendar, which was printed before his death.  She 
expressed her anxiety about Kurt in the article; it was very eery reading it 
on Sunday.)

"The Last Days of a Lost Soul"

"rock singer's drug-induced coma March 4 in Rome, the overdose was in 
fact another suicide attempt-complete with a note.... One source said 
[he] swallowed 60 pills."

"That incident led [Courtney & friends] into an intensive campaign to 
persuade [him] into again getting treatment for drugs and depression."

"But Cobain resisted their efforts....  

"It was a classic case of denial," said one of the sources.  "Classic and 
terribly, terribly sad."

"In the portrait painted by the sources, Cobain...didn't take drugs in 
the stereotypical, party-minded "sex, drugs and rock'n'roll" style.  
Rather, he took the drugs...to block out the depression and calm stomach 
pains that plagued him for years and were aggravated by the strain of 
touring.

"Within days of returning from Rome..., Cobain was reportedly turning 
again to heroin."

"Then on March 18, at the couple's...house, Cobain locked himself in a 
room, and Love told police she feared a suicide.  Police found three 
pistols, a rifle and 25 boxes of ammunition.

"Police officers said Cobain told them he had locked himself in the room 
after an argument with Love, and denied that he was suicidal.  Police 
confiscated the wapons, but no arrests were made.

"During that weekend, several people close to Cobain...confronted the 
singer about his drug use in hope of persuading him of the urgency of 
getting professional help.

"The intervention didn't work - and it was this flare-up that apparently 
lead to reports that the group had broken up.

"When Love went to L.A. on March 25 to go over [Hole stuff], she urged 
Cobain to come with her and to check into a recovery program.

"Cobain remained here, but Love pleaded with him daily to join her...to 
seek help.

"Cobain finally gave in to Love's urgings and on Mar 28 [enrolled in a 
recovery program.].... 

"Three days later, he suddenly left the facility without warning.

"Love hired private investigators to find him.  The trail stretched to 
Seattle, but the investigators apparently weren't able to locate him.

"She told friends about a history of suicide and manic depression in his 
family.  Two of his uncles committed suicide, she said.

"As Cobain's disappearance stretched from 4 to 5 to 6 days, she became 
increasingly frightened.  Reports of his behavior were sketchy, but alarming.

"One report had him buying a shotgun and calling a friend to ask the best 
way to shoot yourself in the head.  Other reports had him searching for 
drug dealers in the Seattle area.

....

"Love was in L.A. when she learned of his death.

"It was at the home on Sunday morning that Love taped the message that 
wsa played to fans at the public memorial that evening - the message that 
contained excerpts from the suicide note left by her husband.

"The message spoke of Cobain's loss of enthusiasm for life and for 
music."

That's the gist of the article.  There are a few more details that I left 
out, but that pretty much sums it up.  He has a family history of mental 
illness, which he obviously inherited.  Too bad he didn't receive help at 
a young age, but unfortunately it sounds like his family life growing up 
contributed to his demise.

-Vicki

    First of all, I too find it pretty tasteless from the first 7 replies
    to be so negative about Cobain. If you're not a fan, stay out of this
    note!
    
    About people comparing Cobain to Lennon, all I heard was that people
    said that this was the biggest crowd who were are at a public service
    held, since the death of Lennon. People in Seattle (who weren't fans,
    but just lived in the neighbourhood) said it looked like the president
    (Carter?) had been killed.
    
    Some other things I heard:
    - Cobain had to be identified by his fingerprints, cause his face had
    been completely messed up by the shot.
    - Love went to him as soon as she heard the news. She cut off a piece
    of his hair, and once she was home, she washed it, remembering how Curt
    had always hated washing his hair.
    - At the interview Love gave, she wore one of Curt's pants, telling the
    reporters that he had been one of the most warm, caring people she had
    ever met, and that there was much more to him, than most people knew
    off.
    - In some articles, it said some people yelled 'a$$hole' at the virgil,
    but that was only as a response to Love, who read parts of the note
    Curt had left. After a statement he made, she said: 'A$$hole. I want
    all you people to say a$$hole!' And so they did.
    - A fan who thought that if Curt couldn't make it, he couldn't has
    killed himself with a shot to the head too, just as Cobain himself.
    - It appears that Cobain was tired of playing in Nirvana. He seems to
    have said: I hate Nirvana, I don't wanna play with those guys anymore.
    The only man he wanted to play with was a guy I don't know, and whose
    name I can't seem to recall.
    
    I loved Nirvana's music. I don't have all the albums (yet), but I'm
    sure gonna buy the others too. I only hope that Chris and what's his
    name won't continue the band with another singer. I hope they just quit
    Nirvana and form another band. It just wouldn't be the same, and I
    think that's the least that the owe Cobain.
    
    Marcel, a_fan_in_mourning

    There's a very good article in this week's NEWSWEEK that talks about
    Cobain, clincial depression and suicide in general.  It's entitled
    "Suicide -- Why do People Kill Themselves", and pretty much hits the
    nail on the head.  It addresses the issues of society, in general,
    being unable to fathom what can drive people to take their own lives. 
    There's a follow-on article by an author (whose name I have forgotten)
    that talks about (augh.  Memory laspe!) the White House Aide who killed
    himself recently and how the author, having gone through major
    depression himself, can understand why he did it and why signs had been
    there.  
    
    It's a very good read. 
    
    
    kim

    
    Cobain's own negativism about life in general brings on the negativism
    in the beginning of this string of notes.  Personally, all I said was
    it was unfortunate that he took his life, and the comparison to the 
    legend of John Lennon is a stretching it a bit.
    
    Lv

    
    Reply -22. I agree none of us really know what he was going through and
    its not right to slag him of notes 1-7.I have not heard very much about
    the incident, if any-one knows more I would like to hear about it with
    regards to Nirvana. Kurt said he was sick og rock n roll and the only
    person(s)he wanted to play with was REM,or there lead singer apparently
    they hung out together and where great friends. Cobain was described as
    the John lennon of the 90s, I can see a small similarity,I liked Nirvana
    alot but I can not in all serious compare him to John Lennon, Cobain
    was great but he was no Lennon. I think this will end up a movie like 
    the Doors which I think Nirvana may have been like but at present are a
    hell of a long way off.
    
    Barry 
    
    
    
    

    RE.22
    When I said '....the president (Carter?)...'
    I meant to say '...the president (Kennedy?)...'
    They both start with a k-sound.
    
    Marcel.

    Truth be told, I kinda liked Nirvana. One thing that I found
    interesting is the way Colbain's songs went from plodding to mayhem and
    back again to plodding without a pause. That sort of turn on a dime
    emotion is generally lacking from most formula song-writing we see today.
    In one way, what Colbain did reminded me of Freddie Mercury in such
    songs as "Bohemian Rhapsody". One second, we're flitting along with
    Gilbert and Sullivan, the next second were moshing with a Brian May
    guitar line.
    
    A lot of people thought that Nirvana sucked mainly because of Colbain's
    marble-mouthed delivery. He wasn't a great singer. But then again, rock
    and roll has always been a haven for people who would get chased out of
    even the worst church choir. Being a good singer doesn't matter as much
    as being a unique and/or interesting singer. If quality singing (in the
    opera/classical sense) mattered, where would Tom Petty, Bob Dylan, and
    a whole host of other performers be? Kurt Colbain was a unique, and
    therefore interesting singer of basic rock and roll songs.
    
    For me, the most haunting Nirvana song is Lithium. With its dark images
    of mental illness, Colbain points an almost accusing finger at himself.
    Which brings me to a final point. People who are not suicidally
    depressed cannot begin to imagine what Colbain was thinking at the time
    of his death and what his motivation and emotions were. So, it's easy
    to point a finger at him and say "what a jerk". But, don't forget that
    Kurt basically lived on the edge, if not completely within the bounds
    of, mental illness. At the least he was manic depressive. At the worst,
    his music is a mirror of his psychosis and possible scizophrenia.
    Mental illness is *not* a pretty picture.
    
    Brian

    
    Yeah, I called him a jerk.  Some may think that's overly critical, or
    at best, insensitive, and that I didn't understand what suiciders must
    go through.  Well, that's a bad assumption.  If you've dealt with these
    issues up close and personal you develop a different perspective.
    
    I hope that none of you are "given" the opportunity to develop this
    perspective.  If you've been through it, then you probably understand
    my original post.
    
    The bottom line for me is that this guy had a lot going for him, but
    that he was too lazy to work through his problems, and that his friends
    and family didn't force him to work things out.  So, he checked out and
    left a baby behind that will probably never understand why daddy didn't
    care enough to stick around...  Are you starting to understand why
    Courtney made the crowd call him an asshole?
    

    I vcompletely agree with Brian. And as a reaction to .-1, what do you
    think is worse:
    a) A little girl of 1 year old, with only her mother left, cause daddy
    committed suicide, or
    b) Let's say a 10 year old girl, who lives with her mother, after her
    parents have gotten a divorce?
    
    I think the latter, cause at least Frances hasn't known her father. If
    Love remarries, she doesn't even have to know it until she's old
    enough. But the other girl has known her father, and will always wonder
    if he left because she hadn't been 'a good girl', or because he didn't
    love her enough.
    
    So, back off please, would you rather have Cobain (without the 'l',
    Brian  :)  ) kill himself 6 years later, when his daughter would have
    been well awair(sp?) of her father?
    
    Well, enough said about that, now for something different.
    The following reply contains explicit language.  It was reproduced
    here in it's exact form and may be offesive to some.

    The following is the message that Courtney taped for fans at Kurt's
    public memorial service:

    I don't know what to say. I feel the same way you do guys do. If you
    guys don't think... to sit in this room where he played guitar and
    sang, and feel so honored to be near him, you're crazy... Anyway, he
    left a note, it's more like a letter to the fucking editor. I don't
    know what happened. I mean it was gonna happen, but it could've
    happened when he was 40.
    He always said he was gonna outlive everybody and be hundred and
    twenty. I'm not gonna read you all the note 'cause it's none of the
    rest of your fucking business. But some of it is to you. I don't
    really think it takes away his dignity to read the considering that
    it's addressed to most of you. he's such an asshole. I want you all to
    say 'asshole' really loud. "This note should be pretty easy to
    understand. All the warnings from the punk rock 101 courses over the
    years since my first introduction to the shall we say, ethics involved
    with independance and embracement of your community, it's proven to be
    very true. "I haven't felt the excitement of listening to as well as
    creating music, along with really writing something, for too many
    year's now.
    
    "I feel guilty beyond words about these things -- for example, when
    we're backstage and the light goes out and the roar of the crowd begins,
    it doesn't affect me the way in which it did for Freddie Mercury, who
    seemed to love and relish the love and adoration of the crowd."
    
    Well, Kurt, so fucking what -- then don't be a rock star you asshole.
    
    "Which is something I totally admire and envy. The fact that I can't
    fool you, any one of you, it simply isn't fair to you or to me.
    The worst crime I could think of would be to pull people off by faking
    it, pretending as if I'm having 100% fun"
    
    Well Kurt the worst crime I can think of is for you to just continue
    being a rock star when you fucking hate it, just fucking stop.
    
    "Sometimes I feel as I should have a punch-in time-clock before I walk
    out on stage. I've tried everything within my power to appreciate it,
    and I do, god believe me I do, but it's not enough. I appreciate the
    fact that I and we have effected and entertained a lot of people. I
    must be one of those narcissists who only appreciate things when they
    are alone. Im too sensitive. I need to be slightly numb in order to
    regain the enthusiasm I once had as a child. On our last 3 tours I've
    had a much better appreciation of all the people I know personally, and
    as fans of our music, but I still can't get out the frustration to
    gather the empathy I have far everybody. Ther's good in all of us and I
    simply love people too much.
    
    So why didn't you just fucking stay?
    
    "So much that it makes me feel just too fucking sad. Sad little
    sensative unappreciative Pieces --" Jesus man oh shut up.. bastard. Why
    didn't you just enjoy it? I don't know. Then he goes on to say personal
    things to me that are none of your damn business; personal things to
    Frances that are none of your damn business.
    
    "I had a good marriage, and for that I'm grateful. But since the age of
    seven, I've become hateful toward all humans in general only because it
    seems so easy for people to get along that have empathy."
    
    Empathy?
    
    "Only because I love and feel for people too much I guess.
    Thank you all from the pit of my burning nauseous stomach for your
    letters and concern during the last years. I'm pretty much of an
    erratic moody person and I don't have the passion anymore. Peace, Love,
    Empathy, Kurt Cobain."
    
    And there's some more personal things that is none of your fucking
    bussiness. And I just remember: this is all bullshit...
    And I'm laying in our bed, and I'm really sorry. And I feel the same
    way as you do. I'm really sorry you guys. I don't know what I could
    have done. I wish I'd been there. I wish I hadn't listened to other
    people, but I did.
    
    Every night I've been sleeping with his mother, and I wake up in the
    mmorning and think it's him because his body's sort of the same.
    
    I have to go now.
    
    -- Courtney Love
    
Marcel.

    Just 1 more thing, that I forgot:
    How many Nirvana albums are there, and what are they called?
    
    I know of:
    Bleach		with Chris, Kurt and 2 others
    Nevermind		Kurt, Chris and David
    Incesticide		Kurt, Chris and David
    In Utero		Kurt, Chris and David
    
    But there must be at least 1 more, cause during the MTV-unplugged
    session, they played 2 songs, 'The Plateau' and the one after that,
    that, I quote 'these songs are from our second album' unquote.
    What album is that? I thought their second was Nevermind, but they're
    not on it. Anyone?
    
    Marcel.

    
    I happened to catch Andy Rooney last night on 60 minutes
    while channel surfing. He really slagged off on Cobain
    (something about wasted years he wished he had left...)
    Although doing the 12-gauge facial is not something I agree
    with or would choose for myself, I find it amazing that anyone
    would be so cruel and tasteless as to go on national TV
    and badmouth the guy while the dirt's still fresh on the grave.
    
    /Billy_K

    
    .-1
    
    The thing I found amazing was that Rooney admitted right up front that
    until last week he had never even heard of either Cobain or Nirvana. 
    He then proceeds to bad-mouth not only Cobain, but those that felt that
    his death was a tragedy.  He closed by giving an obituary of a college
    professor that he knew and made it sound as though the professor's
    death was a greater lose than that of Cobain.  I think what Rooney
    missed was that they're all great losses; whether it's a troubled rock
    star, a talented college professor, or some poor kid caught in the 
    cross-fire in Bosnia.  It's all tragic.  Rooney seemed to be trying to 
    put a price tag on lives, some are worth more than others.                 
    
    I generally enjoy Andy Rooney's perspectives, but this one I found to be
    nothing but arrogant opinion without humor or empathy.
    
    Al

    re: criticisms of Cobain

    A couple of questions.  First, I only caught part of Rooney's remarks.
    What did he say that "badmouthed" Cobain?  The portion I heard was
    lamenting that there was something of a national furor over the
    suicide of a person whom Rooney had never heard of and whose
    contribution to the world was, in Rooney's opinion, less than that of
    an little-known teacher who also died last week.  Rooney's assertion
    was that the death of a minor figure in popular music, while
    lamentable, was not worthy of the attention it was getting.  If Rooney
    was criticising anything, it was the "culture of youth", particularly
    that of popular entertainment.

    While I think the timing of his remarks showed some insensitivity,  I
    think the gist what he was saying was on the mark.  If the popular
    press reflects our priorities, then perhaps there is something amiss
    in a culture that gives national attention to a young pop
    singer/composer and gives none to a man who devoted decades of his
    life in obscurity to the education of others.  

    I realize that some folks may get riled at the assertion that Cobain
    was a "minor figure" in popular music, but it seems to me that such
    irritation is yet another reflection of the pop/youth culture we seem
    to value so disproportionately.  Part of the irony of the discussions
    about Cobain's death is that there are people debating whether or not
    he was as much a "genius" as John Lennon.  At the risk of committing
    heresy, I submit that neither was a "genius", unless the word now
    means "good" or "pretty successful".  Mozart was a genius; DaVinci was
    a genius; Dr. Stephen Hawking may be a genius.  

    I like some of Lennon's music and I like some, albeit less, of
    Cobain's.  Their needless deaths likely has robbed some parts of the
    world of considerable enjoyment.  But let's not lose perspective:
    these individuals were employed in the field of popular entertainment. 
    They shared some of the characteristics of peers of their age and the
    press elected them "spokesmen for their generations."  But they
    weren't healing the sick in third world countries; they weren't
    spending years trying to give inner-city kids an education that would
    allow them to break they cycle of poverty, ignorance and violence. 
    Even musically, it's unlikely that their influence will survive them
    by more than a few decades, if that.

    If Rooney was guilty of "placing a pricetag" on individual's lives, so
    are we when we place such national importance on the death of a pop 
    musician while simultaneously ignoring the death of others whose
    contribution to the enrichment of the world was, in many ways, even
    greater.  

    Steve

    
    
>    So, back off please, would you rather have Cobain (without the 'l',
>    Brian  :)  ) kill himself 6 years later, when his daughter would have
>    been well awair(sp?) of her father?
    
    I'd rather that he got his sh*t together.  This didn't have to happen
    at all.  Instead of showing his fans how to survive the chaos, he
    instead, showed them that it's not worth trying.  This is just the kind
    of ammunition that Tipper Gore and the PRC love to stockpile.
    
    That's a nice phrase: 12 guage facial...  but I thought it was a 20
    guage shotgun?
    

    RE Steve
    You say that Lennon and/or Cobain were no geniusses(sp?), but Mozart
    and DaVinci were. Why?
    Because they lived a longer time ago?
    Because that is supposed to be considered 'art'?
    I don't like Mozart's music, but I do like Cobain's, so for me Cobain
    is more of a genius than Mozart. I think what people consider geniusses
    relies on their own taste.
    
    Another point is: You say something about the youth-influenced press,
    or something, that Lennon and Cobain are important to young people, but
    aren't Mozart and DaVinci important to the 'old' people, who like
    sculptures and classical music?
    So you say that the opinion of the older people is worth more than the
    opinion of the youth? That could lead to some heavy discussions!
    
    My point: If Mozart and DaVinci were geniusses, why can't Lennon and
    Cobain be as well?
    
    Marcel.

    >Another point is: You say something about the youth-influenced press,
    >or something, that Lennon and Cobain are important to young people, but
    >aren't Mozart and DaVinci important to the 'old' people, who like
    >sculptures and classical music?
    
    Oh, brother...get real, you don't have to be "old" to like classical
    art and music.  Of course, it does help to get exposed to some instead
    of the crap the mass media convinces us is "art".
    
    >You say that Lennon and/or Cobain were no geniusses(sp?), but Mozart
    >and DaVinci were. Why?
    
    Mozart was a genius because the music he created was incredibly
    innovative and influential.  Not to mention it just sounds good, he was
    one of the greatest melodists that ever lived.
    
    Da Vinci was a genius because he was an expert in many fields in both
    the arts and the sciences.  Although limited by the technology of his
    time, he was forward-thinking and imagined many things that would later
    become reality, like the helicopter and submarine.
    
    >My point: If Mozart and DaVinci were geniusses, why can't Lennon and
    >Cobain be as well?
    
    Based on the accomplishments of these guys, I find it hard to compare
    what Kurt Cobain did and say that proves he is a genius.  He was a
    talented craftsman who knew how to string together words and music.  It
    does not take genius to write rock songs, believe me.  If it was that
    hard, noone would bother to do it.
    
    							Brian

    I really wish everyone - noters and media people would stop putting
    blame - patrial or full on Kurt's family.  When a person decides to die
    there is Nothing - NOTHING! others can do beyond recognizing the person
    is in trouble and offering support and help .  Guess what folks - thats
    what Courtney AND his fans did, and by his own admission.  He
    acknowledged he was getting support from everyone after the failed
    attempt in Rome, and who knows what else was going on behind the
    sscenes.
    
    Looks to me like Courtney (in her own drug-induced way), the rest of
    his family and his friends and fans, were there trying to help and
    support him.
    
    I'm just sick and tired of people asking 'why didn't anyone stop him'
    .......they were trying, but Kurt just didn't want the help.
    
    Rest In Peace,
    Jt

    
    ...and Cobain was not in the same league as Lennon _at_all_ - Lennon
    was a living legend already long time before he died.
    
    I must admit I don't care for Nirvana music at all, not even after the
    death of KC - to me, it's just a mix of old ideas in a new package (and
    is it even new?)...
    
    Sorry,
    
    Poul
    

    re: .36 (Marcel)
    
    > You say that Lennon and/or Cobain were no geniusses(sp?), but Mozart
    > and DaVinci were. Why?
    > Because they lived a longer time ago?
    > Because that is supposed to be considered 'art'?
    
    I think Brian explained it well.  To his remarks I'd add that the
    creative efforts of ones such as Mozart and DaVinci survived them and
    had a profound influence on people for generations to come.  
    
    > I don't like Mozart's music, but I do like Cobain's, so for me Cobain
    > is more of a genius than Mozart. I think what people consider geniusses
    > relies on their own taste.
    
    I disagree.  I think that equating taste with genius is to change the
    meaning of the word "genius."  I have no problem with folks saying they
    *like* Nirvana more than Mozart or The Beatles more than Nine Inch Nails
    or any other comparison.  These are indeed matters of personal
    preference, matters of taste.  But if the word "genius" is to have
    meaning that denotes extreme rarity of creative ability or
    intelligence, then we cannot equate it to personal preference.
    
    > Another point is: You say something about the youth-influenced press,
    > or something, that Lennon and Cobain are important to young people, 
    
    No.  What I said was that the media is overly attuned to pop culture
    which is, by and large, oriented torwards youth and entertainment.  It
    is this orientation, I believe, that makes national headlines out of
    Cobain's suicide while relegating the death of an educator or hundreds
    of deaths in countries like Borundi back-page news.  I was agreeing
    that Rooney's point that our national priorities (or at least those
    of the popular media) are out of balance.
    
    > but aren't Mozart and DaVinci important to the 'old' people, who like 
    > sculptures and classical music? 

    Again I agree with what Brian said.  And I'd add that the contributions
    of those of true genius are important to young and old of succeeding
    generations because of the influence their work has upon posterity.
    
    > So you say that the opinion of the older people is worth more than 
    > the opinion of the youth? 
    
    I said no such thing.  I think you're seriously mis-reading my words.
    
    > My point: If Mozart and DaVinci were geniusses, why can't Lennon and
    > Cobain be as well?
    
    Because to grant "genius" status to every competent craftsperson is to
    so change the word "genius" as to make it meaningless.
    
    Steve

    re: Genuis stuff
    
    This is an ancient debate.  I've had it with my father (Keith Emerson's
    genuis vs. George Gershwin), he had it with his father (George Gershwin
    vs. Mozart), and I'm sure my grandfather had it with his.
    
    The argument is NOT "Was Kurt Cobain a genius", but really "what
    defines genius".
    
    My own answer is that Kurt Cobain could well prove to be a genius
    but that we simply can not say that yet.
    
    My "requirement" for the genius test is that your creation has to
    survive the test of time.   If people 25 years from now can not
    even remember Kurt, I'd say he failed the test for "genius" as I
    define it.
    
    I suspect that is also the root of why other folks say that Kurt
    is not a genius.  But note that I differ with that slightly by
    saying not that "he is NOT" but that "he only may be".
    
    In my opinion, Lennon "appears to be passing" the test. 
    
    	db

What about Moe, Larry, and Curly?

Or Vanilla Ice?

    db, I essentially with your notion of "genius" but maybe it has to be
    longer...if you go to a 50's club (Sh-Booms for instance) you hear
    "Rock Around The Clock"  now, that's almost 40 years ago...was Bill
    Haley a genius ??
    
    I agree that Lennon is passing the test...but I am a major Beatles fan,
    not much of a Nirvana fan, so I can't see Cobain being a genius...maybe
    my teenage nephews can tell me if they think he is
    
    hmm, maybe there should be a genius note

    The words "Lennon" and "Cobain" don't belong in the same sentence, IMHO

    >db, I essentially with your notion of "genius" but maybe it has to be
    >longer...if you go to a 50's club (Sh-Booms for instance) you hear
    >"Rock Around The Clock"  now, that's almost 40 years ago...was Bill
    >Haley a genius ??
    
    The "test of time" isn't merely that "people who used to listen to it,
    keep listening to it".
    
    A truly enduring work appeals to people in future generations. 
    Ironically, Lennon's work is not only appreciated by new generations,
    but even OLDER (people who pre-date the Beatle generation) listen
    to it.   I can't tell you how many times I hear "101 Strings"
    adaptations of Lennon's stuff.
    
    I remember having a conversation with my Grandmother about this "rock
    and roll garbage" and hearing Beatles tunes in the background playing
    on the radio that she constantly had permanently tuned to an "old
    people station" (I'm sure you know what I mean).
    
    That is how I personally manage to distinguish Lennon from Bill Haley.
    
    And by the way... as much as I hate to admit it...
    
    
    
    
    			I'm not a Beatles fan either!
    
    
    			Don't own a single Beatles album!
    
    	db
    
    p.s.  Come to think of it, I do own the "red" and "blue" Best Of
    	  collections.  They were a gift.   Only time I've listened to
    	  them is when I had to learn Beatles songs for bands.

    
    
    It doesn't take a whole lot of "genius" to take 
    the "20"-gauge facial. Like beauty, genius is
    in the eye of the beholder. One person's genius
    is another person's nonsense (which this whole
    discussion has become!!)
    
    /Billy_K
    

    
    I have to agree with that 1, BK - time to push this one over to
    SOAPBOX...
    
    Unless we want to give someone who shall remain nameless a chance to
    tell us how good-looking he ... was ...
    

    RE last 8 or 9
    Okay, I see your points, and I must admit, that I kind of agree with
    you. Like .-1 says, let's close this talking about 'To be a genius or
    not to be a genius, that's the question!', okay?
    
    How about the question I allready asked before:
    How many Nirvana albums are there? And what are they called?
    I know of: Bleach, Nevermind, Incesticide and In Utero.
    Are there any more?
    Cause on MTV Unplugged, they played 2 songs, according to Cobain from
    their second album, but I can't find them on any of the 4 I mentioned.
    
    Marcel

>    It doesn't take a whole lot of "genius" to take 
>    the "20"-gauge facial. 
    
    I just wanted to make one brief comment about this.
    
    You don't have to look too hard throughout history to find people
    whom we would agree posessed "genius" who committed suicide.
    
    In fact, it has been observed at times that there seems to be a
    correlation with genius and suicide (and psychological problems).
    
    	db - who is NOT a Nirvana fan

    Actually, I've read a bit about recent studies trying to show a link
    between manic depression and artistic talent.  This has interested
    psychologists for years since so many creative people have led rather
    tragic lives.  So far, the jury is still out on this one. 
    
    							Brian

    > How many Nirvana albums are there? And what are they called?
    > I know of: Bleach, Nevermind, Incesticide and In Utero.
    
    That's all of them.
    
    > Cause on MTV Unplugged, they played 2 songs, according to Cobain from
    > their second album, but I can't find them on any of the 4 I mentioned.
    
    Are you talking about the two songs they played with the guys from the
    Meat Puppets towards the end of the show?  If so, I believe that both
    of those songs are Meat Puppets songs -- maybe they're on a Meat
    Puppets album?
    				- Paul

    RE.-1
    The songs I'm talking about were towards the end of the show, not sure
    if the Meet Puppets played along, but the first was called The Plateau,
    and the second I can't recall. Sounded cool, though.
    
    RE.-2,3
    Maybe that's like when you're a genius in school, very often those
    people are brilliant, but because they are too good in class, they get
    bored, and end up a problem case, who has to go to a special school.
    Maybe that's the same with other kinds of genius.
    
    Just got Incesticide yesterday, some great songs. The one in my head
    right no is: Mom and dad went to the mall, dropped me off at grandpa
    Joe's, lalala lala lala, come on take me home, come on take me home,
    etc..
    
    Marcel.

    re: -1 

    That's "Grandma take me home"

	I seem to recall this song title caption during the "Unplugged" 
	rebroadcast on MTV. 

	-Paul

    
    Are these shows close-captioned?  Maybe you could get the lyrics that
    way...
    

    On MTV's Un_Plugged they did Bowie's"The_Man_Who_Changed_The_World".
    
       Crazy_Scary_AL

    RE.54?
    Yeah, I know. It's:
    Mum and dad went to a show, dropped me off at grandpa Joe's, kicked and
    screamed lala lala, grandma take me home, grandma take me home,...
    It's from Incesticide and is called Sliver.
    
    I'm sure now, that the songs were from the Meet Puppets(or something).
    Kurt didn't say: All these songs are from OUR second album, but:
    All these songs are from THEIR second album.
    Sure sounded good, The Plateau, and Lake of fire.
    Where do bad folks go when they die? They don't go to heaven where the
    angels fly, they go to a lake of fire and lala, won't see 'm again till
    the fourth of july.
    
    Could have been Nirvana songs, great songs.
    So, you were right. There are only 4 Nirvana albums. I'm getting Bleach
    this week, and then I will have em all. Nevermind is definetely the
    best. All songs are great, although I also like the Polly new wave
    version from Incesticide. Some other nice songs too. From In Utero I
    especially like: Rape Me; Hey, wait, I got a new complaint! (what's it
    called again?); All apologies; Pennyroyal Tea (of which Kurt did a nice
    version all alone during MTV Unplugged), and some others.
    
    Marcel. 

    
    Does anyone know if the MTV Unplugged show is on CD?
    
    Thanx,
    Barry

I'm sure it will be soon

    The Unplugged show has not been released yet, but DGC immediately
    started negotiating with MTV after Cobain's death, according to press
    reports.
    
    Because it had been broadcast on radio, it should be easy to get a tape
    of the show in the meantime.
    
    								Brian